475 - My Favorite Firework

On today’s episode, Karen covers the serial homicides in and around Toronto’s Gay Village and Georgia tells the story of con artist Margaret Lydia Burton. For our sources and show notes, visit www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes http://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Georgia Hardstark?

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way.

• 0:10Karen Kilgariff?

  When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, that's when the rubber hits the road.

• 0:16Georgia Hardstark?

  And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it.

• 0:23Karen Kilgariff?

  This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences.

• 0:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now.

• 0:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Goodbye.

• 0:41Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:46Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 0:52Karen Kilgariff?

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• 0:55Georgia Hardstark?

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• 1:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 1:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:26Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder.

• 1:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're doing it again. We're podcasting again.

• 1:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you believe it?

• 1:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I see you right here.

• 1:35Karen Kilgariff?

  We can't either.

• 1:35Georgia Hardstark?

  You were in my dream last night, didn't you?

• 1:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Me?

• 1:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:39Georgia Hardstark?

  You had an extra dog. Is there an extra dog in your life?

• 1:43Karen Kilgariff?

  No, maybe you're seeing the future.

• 1:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I am.

• 1:45Karen Kilgariff?

  What color, size?

• 1:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Sweet little, medium-sized, black dog. I can't remember the name, but you were like watching it for now, like fostering.

• 1:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Mmm.

• 1:55Georgia Hardstark?

  So I think you should do it.

• 1:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing, I don't like fostering.

• 1:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course.

• 2:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Because how do you have a dog in your house that you're treating like your own dog and then you're just like, okay, bye, good luck?

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, but it's for the, it's for the greater good.

• 2:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Not my greater good. And I'm, my greater good is the only one I care about.

• 2:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we know.

• 2:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 2:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's been a real burden. I didn't get to tell you the story of when we were heading home from Chicago and for the first, well, for the, almost the whole flight. So it was a four hour flight. So for three and a half hours, I was convinced I was sitting next to Steve-O and it was so exciting.

• 2:38Georgia Hardstark?

  But you couldn't actually look, so you just convinced yourself?

• 2:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, so when I walked on, it was a dude in the aisle seat with his hat pulled all the way down, real flat build skater boy hat. And he was, it was like that. So I was like, okay, famous person, whatever. So I just slide past him and sit down. And then of course, we have to wait and wait because there's all these crazy delays for weather. And so by the time we've taken off and I'm waiting for that seatbelt sign to go off, I have to pee so bad.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 3:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And so I was just like, he was like turned away and was like all crunched in. So I was like, I absolutely have to give the signal. I'm not trying to talk to you.

• 3:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Or make small talk. Literally, I'm not going to wait for that sign to go off. I'm gonna get up and go.

• 3:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Get the fuck out of my way. I've got to piss. I've been there. I've done it.

• 3:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And I planned accordingly. I didn't choose to wait.

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 3:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Like I was forced to wait. Thank God. And I'm sorry to say, but it just looked like a crazy old lady came wandering up the aisle and she had the kind of like long gray hair and I was like, oh, my God, she's gonna do it first.

• 3:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 3:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And she did.

• 3:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Good for her.

• 3:45Karen Kilgariff?

  She did it first.

• 3:45Georgia Hardstark?

  She broke the seal for it.

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  She broke the seal for all the people who had to pee. So then she walks back and the second she passed, I think our seats, our aisle was the last one.

• 3:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:56Karen Kilgariff?

  The second she passed, I just turned, gave full energy of like move it. And then he kind of looked, but I wasn't trying to look in his face because I wanted to make sure he knew I am not trying to talk to you.

• 4:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And I just jumped up and slid past him and went to the bathroom. And as I went in, I just looked at this, at the flight attendant and I was like, it's an emergency and went in. And as I walk in and lock the door, they were like, attention all passengers, stay in your seat.

• 4:21Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just for you. It's totally just for you.

• 4:23Karen Kilgariff?

  They announced shame to me. So then at the very end of the flight, he stood up, opened up the overhead, looked at me and said, "Do you have anything up here? You want me to get down?" And I was like, "No, because you're not Steve-O, "so you can truly go to hell forever."

• 4:35Georgia Hardstark?

  That whole time.

• 4:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It was so exciting.

• 4:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's weird. I think we're all gonna agree that it's weird that you got so excited about Steve-O. Like, I wouldn't have pictured that as like a Karen gets excited about celeb.

• 4:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Really?

• 4:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, maybe you weren't listening all the times I told you, but a huge thing.

• 4:54Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 4:55Karen Kilgariff?

  No, just kidding. But I used to watch Wild Boys. Wild Boys came on on my TV when I lived in a studio apartment. It was broken, literally got like three channels.

• 5:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Somehow I was able to watch that show.

• 5:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't even know what it is.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It was Steve-O and Chris Pontius, I believe is how you pronounce his last name. And they would go all around the world and like dress as bananas and go sit near silverback gorillas.

• 5:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 5:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Like pranks around the world.

• 5:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Like pranks to themselves, too, almost.

• 5:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. Like lots of bungee jumping off of bridges that like

• 5:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:29Karen Kilgariff?

  They're both having nervous breakdowns.

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 5:30Karen Kilgariff?

  That kind of stuff, but like everywhere.

• 5:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Adventure show.

• 5:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 5:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's amazing. And I didn't know that. And congratulations.

• 5:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It is kind of funny when you sit. I do that all the time on planes, thinking, I recognize people were flying out of LAX.

• 5:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, of course.

• 5:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, look around a little bit, but also when people get hidey like that, you're like, "Why would you be doing this?"

• 5:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Does he have a zit? He probably had a big zit. That's why I'd hide.

• 5:52Karen Kilgariff?

  He looked like a regular guy when he stood up.

• 5:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, not even a hot skater? Come on.

• 5:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, let's get skater. They're like, "Karen, that was George Clooney." Like, "Oh, I thought it was Steve-O."

• 6:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't give a shit. I love the idea of you like, "Get out of my way, George Clooney. Steve-O's right there. I gotta talk to him, get a photo."

• 6:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing. I feel like I know Steve-O better than I know George Clooney. So it is that thing of like, you feel like it's the boy from high school that got famous.

• 6:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Not just a celebrity.

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Not the famous guy.

• 6:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 6:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That makes sense.

• 6:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Also, I tricked my dad into watching the most recent

• 6:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Jackass?

• 6:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you. Is it Jackass 4?

• 6:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck if I know.

• 6:26Karen Kilgariff?

  The most recent. And I thought he would make me turn it off because of all the filth.

• 6:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:30Karen Kilgariff?

  And we watched it for so long before they literally showed men's genitals. And he went, "All right, turn this off."

• 6:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, that's his heart out, is like four genital shots.

• 6:41Karen Kilgariff?

  He was like, "I can't." This I would have normally been so mad about.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:45Karen Kilgariff?

  But I think they won him over, too.

• 6:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Wow.

• 6:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 6:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, genital shots with your dad. No.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  I couldn't believe it. I was just like, all of a sudden it's smash cut to like, here's how we're gonna up this prank. And then I was just like, what are we watching?

• 7:00Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, I've turned movies off with my dad because of that. Or we both go, oh, no. And like, both of us turn away from the TV.

• 7:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 7:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. No, thanks.

• 7:09Georgia Hardstark?

  No, thanks, Dad.

• 7:10Karen Kilgariff?

  No, thanks. That was your flight home.

• 7:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It was uneventful and I was so happy to be home. That Friday afternoon home thing where you're just like, I just want to sleep for the entire weekend.

• 7:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And I did.

• 7:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:22Georgia Hardstark?

  It was great.

• 7:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And you got to, you were justified.

• 7:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 7:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 7:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we do highlights for our network?

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do it.

• 7:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, you guys, we have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Please follow it everywhere if you want and can and should.

• 7:34Karen Kilgariff?

  If you would, please.

• 7:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And here are some highlights.

• 7:36Karen Kilgariff?

  This week on our weird news show Bananas, comedian Abby Govinden joins Kurt and Scotty, and they cover important news of the world, like a reckless driver who was fined for not stopping at a crosswalk for his own children. And of course, Walgreens' shocking revelation that locking up every item in their stores is bad for business. Who knew?

• 7:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Shocking.

• 7:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 7:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Shocking. And then on That's Messed Up, Cara and Lisa cover the SVU episode Exile, season 20, episode 6, that covers the strange disappearance of Hannah Up and chat with actress Amy Spring Fortier, who plays two different characters on the same episode. Wow, she's got range.

• 8:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. And then over on our brand new true crime podcast, The Knife, they've got a new episode out today. Hannah and Pasha are sharing Tony Nova's story. Tony was newly married and just a month into her pregnancy when her husband became physically abusive. Today, she's bravely telling her story in hopes of helping others find safety in similar situations.

• 8:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing. The Knife is doing the work.

• 8:36Karen Kilgariff?

  They're doing it.

• 8:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And Buried Bones has a big week. First, the new episode drops on Wednesday as Kate and Paul head to Delaware in 1892 to investigate the brutal murder of a 17-year-old woman. Then on Friday, 4:00 PM Pacific, join Kate and Paul for the premiere of their very first video episode. It's at youtube.com/ExactlyRightMedia. They'll be in the comments live, answering listener questions. You get to see their beautiful faces, talking about awesome stuff. Please go and check that out.

• 9:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. Kate and Paul on video. Can't miss.

• 9:07Georgia Hardstark?

  What more do you want?

• 9:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And finally, we have a personal question for you, listener. Have you checked out our merch lately? There's something for everyone, but especially there's stuff now for our day one listeners. Look, very small, but here it is. The day one listener pin. It's a little blue ribbon pin.

• 9:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 9:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. You've been telling everyone you're, you've been here since the beginning. So now you can brag about it in pin form.

• 9:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And also, we're not going to check your work if you are a day 37 listener or day 200 listener. You can still wear this beautiful pin.

• 9:37Karen Kilgariff?

  I feel like we are.

• 9:39Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a blue ribbon, yeah.

• 9:39Karen Kilgariff?

  We've had to listen to this shit the whole time.

• 9:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I will wear it.

• 9:45Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 9:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 9:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 9:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone. And SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, it's a raccoon at your front door, but also that they have staff that's sitting there, they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 10:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in MFM at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 10:49Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time.

• 10:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting edge design tools, anyone One can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to Squarespace.com/murder for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch,

• 11:35Karen Kilgariff?

  use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.

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• 12:13Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, you're first.

• 12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do the thing that is the thing we're supposed to do.

• 12:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it. Let's do the thing they've been fast-forwarding to for the past two minutes.

• 12:23Karen Kilgariff?

  All right. This is a story that got suggested to me, and I said, I'm positive I've covered that before. And then Maren looked it all up and was like, you've talked about it before, you have not covered it. And the reason I thought I covered it is because I listened to and then recommended and talked about a lot, a podcast by the CBC called The Village. It's a limited series podcast that is such an incredible deep dive. Journalist Justin Ling did it, and it is such a good podcast. It's heavily cited in this. So that's why it was so familiar to me. But now I'm going to tell it to you myself.

• 13:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 13:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So it starts in January of 2018 in Toronto, Canada, in and around the city's LGBTQ+ district, you know? That area is known as the Church and Wellesley neighborhood, also known as Toronto's gay village. Over the past 10 years, eight men with connections to the queer community have simply vanished from the city. And for all those years, their loved ones have been waiting for answers. Now, in the morning of January 18, 2018, just before 10:30 a.m., a team of officers storms a Toronto apartment and arrests the homeowner. He's been the target of their investigation in these disappearances for weeks, and he's been under 24-hour surveillance. Soon, the investigators' suspicions about this man will be confirmed. He is, in fact,

• 13:47Karen Kilgariff?

  a serial killer who has been hiding in plain sight all this time. Today, I'm going to tell you the story of Toronto's gay village murders.

• 13:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Yeah, we've never covered this.

• 13:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 13:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I think a lot of it was playing out over the past few years, and we've been, like, probably waiting to see the results of it, too, before we covered it.

• 14:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. The trial, I think, is 2019, and goes into 2020. It's recent in terms of our COVID brains of like, yes, we wouldn't have talked about it then. And then I think, listening to this podcast, The Village, it's just like, oh, I know this story. Like, then it becomes like, well, I know the story the way I would if I had told it.

• 14:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, right.

• 14:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's when the lies begin. The rest of our sources are in our show notes, if you want to go read those. So I'm going to start in the 1970s, before the gay village exists. Back then, Toronto's queer scene was centered around what they called gay strip, which is a cluster of dive bars on the same street. This is just after Canada decriminalizes sex between consenting adults of the same sex. That happened in 1969. Now, the gay strip is the hub for the city's queer community. Unsurprisingly, local bigots come out in full force against the gay strip and its patrons. They hurl slurs, eggs, and rocks at them, and sometimes it escalates into physical beatings.

• 15:10Karen Kilgariff?

  But the police do not intervene. In fact, Toronto Police refused to meet with members of the queer community to discuss safety. As York University historian Dr. Tom Hooper tells CBC's The Fifth Estate, quote, "When a gay person is a victim of a crime, they expect the police to pay attention. That was not happening in the 1970s. But on the flip side, when it came to lesser crimes, like for example, jaywalking, the police were hypersensitive to the gay community. So the police paid close attention to enforcing the law, but not to protecting the community from threats." End quote. So then between 1975 and 1978, a span of just three years, the bodies of 14 men are

• 15:49Karen Kilgariff?

  found strangled, stabbed to death, or both, and only about half of those cases are solved.

• 15:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus. How long is that? Between when?

• 15:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Three years, so 75 to 78. It's clearly a pressing matter of public safety, but the police seemed of very little interest in solving those remaining homicide cases. And on top of that lack of urgency, there's also an issue with finding witnesses who can help push the investigations forward, because of course, it's a time when anti-gay discrimination is rampant. So many people don't feel like they can safely speak up, because that would mean outing themselves. Not to mention coming forward would require working with a police force that has been, at best indifferent, and at worst overtly hostile towards the gay community.

• 16:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you'd like get on their radar then.

• 16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 16:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And that's a dangerous place to be.

• 16:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's like just a problem of any marginalized group of people. Where it's like, all the people that the police work fine for, which is basically rich white people, go, well, then go tell the police.

• 16:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And be, you know, speak up.

• 16:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, why didn't you, yeah.

• 16:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So then in 1981, tensions between Toronto's queer community and the police hit an all time high during what are now the infamous bathhouse raids, when more than 150 police officers sweep four of the city's bathhouses, sometimes using crowbars to violently open private rooms and lockers, and arrest employees and nearly 300 patrons, who they then charged with gross indecency or minor drug offenses. So the backlash to the bathhouse raids is swift. Over 3,000 people take to the streets protesting police brutality and discrimination. And those protests are sometimes talked about like the Canadian counterpart to Stonewall in America, in New York City.

• 17:38Karen Kilgariff?

  The fallout in Toronto is that many people in their queer community remain deeply skeptical of law enforcement. So now we're going to jump ahead 30 years. It's 2010 and nobody has heard from 40-year-old Skanda Navarotnam for days. Skanda has first moved to Canada in the 90s as a refugee from Sri Lanka. His loved ones describe him as a charismatic, fun, and excellent friend who, wherever he goes, is always making more friends. People are drawn to his infectious personality. But him not being heard from for days is extremely out of character, so people are worried. Lately, Skanda has been very excited about his new husky puppy, who he brings everywhere.

• 18:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So when his friends find the puppy at home in Skanda's apartment with no food or water, they know something is terribly wrong.

• 18:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Karen Kilgariff?

  So that's when Skanda's reported missing. That same year, a man in his early 40s named Basir Faze is also reported missing. He's a native of Afghanistan. He's a beloved father who works hard for his family. And Basir comes from a culturally conservative background. He was not out to his family. Shortly before vanishing, he called his wife at the end of his workday, told her he had plans with coworkers, but then he actually drove to a bar in the village called The Black Eagle. So when Basir's car is found abandoned on a residential street about 10 minutes away from the village a few days later, the police and his family are baffled. All of this is 45 minutes away from Basir's home, so they don't know why it would be there.

• 19:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Two years later, in 2012, the same story plays out again when 58-year-old Majid Kayan, who goes by the name Hamid, disappears. Hamid is also from Afghanistan, and he hasn't come out to his family either. He's living in an apartment near church in Wellesley, and he has many dear friends in the area. They will all later comment on his deep love for Bollywood films and their music. Oh. Which is just like, I don't know why that got me when I was reading this research of like, the most lively, enlivening, like, positive fun at the end of a Bollywood movie when they do the dance number and everyone does it. It's like, that idea that this was his favorite thing is like, you can kind of imagine that type of personality. Totally.

• 20:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So it doesn't take long for members of Toronto's queer community to connect the dots here. These three missing person cases all involve men who fall in the same general age range, have emigrated to Canada from socially conservative Asian nations, and have spent time in the gay village. An advocate and member of Toronto's queer community, Meeta Hans, tells journalist Justin Lane, quote, "Everybody who saw the missing posters brought up the words serial killer. This is not chance. This is not a lover's quarrel gone awry. This is a pattern. This is a definitive pattern." Yeah. And Meeta Hans is a big part of the Village podcast. She's in it the whole time. She's amazing.

• 20:43Karen Kilgariff?

  So, of course, the initial police response to these three disappearances is, in a word, baffling. Not all bad. For example, a close friend of Hamid's named Kyle Andrews goes to the police, and he's relieved to discover the detective that is handling the case seems both nonjudgmental and interested in the information he's giving. So Kyle shares as much as he possibly can. He mentions that Hamid has been dating a guy named Bruce, but he doesn't know the man all that well. Kyle is surprised when the detective follows up about Bruce. Then Kyle gets the sense that the police are, for whatever reason, interested in knowing more about him specifically. But here's where the baffling part comes in.

• 21:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Kyle eventually learns that Bruce, whose full name is Bruce MacArthur, actually has connections to both Skanda and Basir.

• 21:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Which means he knows all three of the missing men.

• 21:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:39Karen Kilgariff?

  The police learn this when they search all of the missing men's dating profiles and find Bruce's dating profile in connection with theirs.

• 21:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 21:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And Bruce's profile is pretty unremarkable. He's a landscaper in his early 60s. He looks so much like Santa Claus that he actually works as Santa Claus

• 21:58Georgia Hardstark?

  What?

• 21:58Karen Kilgariff?

  at a local mall during the holiday season.

• 22:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 22:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, he writes on his own profile, quote, "I can be a bit shy until I get to know you, but am a romantic at heart." Police interview this Bruce MacArthur as part of the investigation, but for whatever reason, they treat him more like a witness than a suspect. In general, police are rejecting the idea that a serial killer could be behind these disappearances. In fact, they release a statement saying that they've, quote, "Not found any evidence to say that any of the missing men mentioned above knew each other. The only information between all three that is similar is that they all like to attend similar bars, especially the Black Eagle." So, the police investigation loses momentum, the case is stalled, detectives seem to accept

• 22:45Karen Kilgariff?

  the explanation that Hamid, Basir, and Skanda all decided to leave Toronto on their own. Of course, that explanation doesn't make sense to the people who know these men, including their friends in the queer community who've experienced the police's disinterest, discrimination, and hostility. Meeta Hans says, quote, "Initially, I think the tones were very civil, asking for help, asking for acknowledgement, asking for a spotlight to be shown on this, because obviously there's something going on. But when that didn't happen, I think the tone became more urgent, more animated, and finally, the tone became very angry. Why are you not listening? If we see this is happening, if everybody we know sees this is happening, how can you not see this?" End quote.

• 23:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So, now it's 2015. Skanda and Basir have been missing for five years, and Hamid has been missing for three. And then, in August of 2015, 50-year-old Sarush Mahmudi disappears. He's come to Canada from Iran, and he is reported missing by his wife, who's worried sick. The two have a loving relationship, and she speaks publicly about his beautiful smile and his good heart. Like Basir, Hamid and Skanda, Sarush comes from a socially conservative culture. His family members, including his wife, don't know that he spends time in the church in Wellesley neighborhood. And because of that, investigators don't initially connect him with these other missing men.

• 24:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, 37-year-old Karishna Kumar Kanagaratnam disappears around the same time. He is also not connected to the other missing person cases because he has no clear ties to Toronto's gay village. And police have investigated, he still has none to this day. Karishna has been in Canada since 2010, arriving as a refugee from Sri Lanka after a dangerous 100-day journey on a boat from his war-torn native country. But because his refugee claim is denied when he gets to Canada, when he falls out of contact, his family thinks he's laying low to avoid being deported. And he ends up having to live on the street, like, he's really in a bad position when

• 24:57Karen Kilgariff?

  his refugee claim is denied. Then in 2016, a 47-year-old man named Dean Lissawick disappears. He's never reported missing to the police. Dean is white, he was born in Canada, he's a familiar face in the church in Wellesley neighborhood. Justin Ling reports that, quote, "Everyone remembers him as an incredibly nice guy who had fallen on hard times." Dean is often seen panhandling in the area, and sometimes he engages in sex work. He's last been seen in a nearby homeless shelter. Then in 2017, 44-year-old Saleem Essen goes missing. Saleem has moved to Canada from Turkey in 2013.

• 25:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Things haven't always been easy for him, he's previously struggled with addiction, but his friends say that life for him lately had been good and that he'd been turning things around. So when friends suddenly stop hearing from Saleem, he is reported missing to police. And he's last seen at his own home, near the gay village. His brothers will later release a statement about him, saying, quote, "He was very friendly, kind-hearted, open, independent-minded and curious, passionate about learning new things, gardening, exploring new places and meeting new people. His tender and kind humanity came before everything else." So then in July of the same year, after the end of all the pride celebrations, a 49-year-old man named Andrew Kinsman vanishes.

• 26:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Andrew, who's like Dean, white and born in Canada, is very active in Toronto's queer community. He's described by loved ones as, quote, "an extraordinary quirky and caring individual." So unlike the last three disappearances, Andrew and Saleem's cases are soon linked to the 2010 and 2012 disappearances in the gay village. And this reignites the queer community's suspicion that there is a serial killer targeting the area. And finally, the police start listening. They launch a task force known as Project Prism, aimed at solving these active cases. But by this point, Toronto's queer community has been trying to ring the alarm bell for so long about these missing men, they have real reason to worry that the police are

• 27:08Karen Kilgariff?

  going to let these cases go cold again. As prominent church and Wellesley community member and advocate Nikki Ward puts it, quote, "The anger was palpable, but then summer turns to fall, turns to winter, the media moves on, some missing posters stay up, and you still see their faces around the city, but the feeling sets into the community that these cases would go unsolved, just like the others." But then, fortunately, there's a break in the case. As investigators are looking into Andrew Kinsman's case, they find a handwritten name in Andrew's calendar, and that name is Bruce. That's how they learn that Andrew also knew Bruce MacArthur, the 66-year-old Santa Claus

• 27:50Karen Kilgariff?

  landscaper who was treated like a witness back in 2012. So finally, five years after they first connect him to the three other missing men, investigators finally take a look at Bruce MacArthur. They discreetly put him under 24-hour surveillance, and when they do, detectives follow him to a Toronto property belonging to one of his landscaping clients. And that property is not far from where Bazir's car was abandoned back in 2012.

• 28:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I just realized how sinister landscaping is in this.

• 28:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 28:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 28:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Really bad.

• 28:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, okay.

• 28:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So now it's September of 2017. Bruce MacArthur is under surveillance and investigators watch as he sells the van he owns to an auto parts shop.

• 28:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:35Karen Kilgariff?

  They go in basically right after, seize the vehicle without Bruce knowing. And when the forensic team gets in there, they find traces of blood inside. And when the DNA testing comes back, it confirms that the blood belongs to both Saleem Esam and Andrew Kinsman.

• 28:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 28:53Karen Kilgariff?

  So now investigators are able to get a warrant to search Bruce's house, and they do secretly, without him knowing.

• 28:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Ooh.

• 29:00Karen Kilgariff?

  And when they do that, they find a hard drive. And when they open the hard drive, there's a bunch of different folders. And eight of those folders are titled with the names of the missing men.

• 29:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 29:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And inside those folders are photos of the missing men, some of them clearly taken after they had been murdered.

• 29:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine being the forensic investigator?

• 29:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, but seeing those names?

• 29:24Georgia Hardstark?

  And then being like, I know what's gonna happen when I open these.

• 29:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's a ninth folder.

• 29:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 29:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Of a name of a person they don't recognize.

• 29:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 29:34Karen Kilgariff?

  No one's been reported missing. They cross-check it, and now they realize there's a victim out there.

• 29:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 29:40Karen Kilgariff?

  So, in January 2018, the police raid Bruce MacArthur's apartment, just in the nick of time. Inside the apartment, they find a man tied to Bruce's bed.

• 29:51Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 29:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Luckily, he is physically unharmed at that point. The police have probably just saved his life, because when they interview him, they learn this is the man whose name is the title of that ninth folder.

• 30:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, it's like a fucking movie.

• 30:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a horrible movie. And so, police arrest Bruce MacArthur for the murders of Saleem Esam and Andrew Kinsman.

• 30:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 30:15Karen Kilgariff?

  So Bruce MacArthur, just to get a little background on him.

• 30:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, for context, he's born in a small farming village in 1951. He comes from a, quote, "good" family. His high school yearbook notes that his ambition is to, quote, "be successful."

• 30:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 30:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Go for it. After graduating, Bruce gets married, has two children with his wife, and becomes very involved in his church. In the 70s, he gets a job at a department store in downtown Toronto. And that department store is just steps away from what then was known as the gay strip.

• 30:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:50Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's exactly around the same time, those unsolved murders start taking place.

• 30:55Georgia Hardstark?

  My god.

• 30:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Eventually Bruce gets a different job, and that job is as a traveling salesman.

• 31:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 31:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm. Later, he starts doing landscaping work. And in doing landscaping work, he builds up an impressive clientele. He seems to have a charmed life. He's a family man, he donates to charity, he stays active in his church, puts on a Santa suit at the local mall at Christmas time. People like him. So eventually Bruce divorces his wife and begins to live as an openly gay man. But then a darker picture begins to surface. Bruce's son will later claim that he was abusive. Men who encounter Bruce in Toronto's gay community describe him as being very controlling and aggressive.

• 31:38Karen Kilgariff?

  And then in 2001, Bruce is arrested after beating a man he's presumably about to have sex with with a metal pipe until he is unconscious.

• 31:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 31:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Bruce turns himself in the next day, and because of that is able to avoid jail time. But he's banned from the gay village for the length of his probation, and then he has to take anger management classes.

• 32:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Once probation ends, Bruce starts hanging out in the area again, and even worse, I would say, becomes active on gay dating sites.

• 32:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yikes.

• 32:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So after Bruce MacArthur's arrest in 2018, police search for and find the dismembered remains of the eight missing men. Their bodies have been hidden on the various Toronto properties that Bruce is a landscaper for.

• 32:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you imagine being one of those people who live at the property?

• 32:29Karen Kilgariff?

  So horrifying.

• 32:31Georgia Hardstark?

  You're reading the newspaper in the morning, and then like you look at your backyard and you're just like, oh, fuck.

• 32:37Karen Kilgariff?

  For years and years, missing people have been hidden on, a lot of them were, the body parts were put in these really large stone planters.

• 32:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god. Oh, my god.

• 32:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 32:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, because also like the smell would be, you could explain away the smell really easily, manure or whatever, like, you know, it's gonna smell for a few days.

• 32:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 32:58Georgia Hardstark?

  But. That is just so creepy.

• 33:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So creepy.

• 33:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So creepy. So the case against Bruce MacArthur is overwhelming. Investigators collect more than 18,000 pieces of evidence, including clippings of the victim's hair that Bruce was keeping, presumably as trophies. He ultimately pleads guilty to eight counts of first degree murder. Then in February of 2019, he is sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 25 years, which is the way they do it in Canada. He will almost certainly spend the rest of his life behind bars. But even with this sentencing, there are many people who worry this story is not over.

• 33:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 33:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Because the idea that Bruce MacArthur started killing when he was in his 60s is hard to believe.

• 33:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Well, he didn't, right? The 1970s ones are from him?

• 33:47Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't know that.

• 33:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 33:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's unproven.

• 33:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 33:50Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just circumstantial.

• 33:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 33:52Karen Kilgariff?

  That he was basically around the corner when all of that started.

• 33:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 33:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But that's just it, is if they keep on going, like, he was a traveling salesman.

• 34:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That's horrifying.

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  And so is there somebody that's actually gonna sit down? Now that he's in jail, will someone sit down and actually map out

• 34:08Georgia Hardstark?

  map it out, yeah.

• 34:09Karen Kilgariff?

  where he was and if there were missing people and

• 34:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 34:12Karen Kilgariff?

  maybe some podcaster of the future. That reminds me of true crime bullshit.

• 34:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 34:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Where he's just like mapping the Israel Keys disappearances.

• 34:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Or Payne Lindsay, get on that.

• 34:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. So far, there's no confirmed links. The composite sketches of the potential suspect from the 70s, you know, you could say doesn't look like him.

• 34:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Karen Kilgariff?

  But he looks like Santa Claus now.

• 34:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 34:36Karen Kilgariff?

  So what did he look like in the 70s? I actually have a picture of that composite sketch. One of the composite sketches itself is very scary.

• 34:43Georgia Hardstark?

  You also don't know if the composite sketch is of the actual perpetrator or just someone someone saw at the same time in the same place.

• 34:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 34:52Georgia Hardstark?

  It doesn't like, you didn't see him getting murdered by this perpetrator.

• 34:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 34:57Georgia Hardstark?

  You saw this random person around there at the same time. So it doesn't necessarily mean that's what the killer looked like.

• 35:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 35:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 35:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Totally.

• 35:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Like Unabomber, it's the same thing. Like that creepy sketch with the hoodie and the glasses? That's not him, that's someone else, completely.

• 35:10Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the bass player of a yacht rock band, clearly. So police have never shared or found any physical evidence connecting him to those cases.

• 35:22Karen Kilgariff?

  But there's another reason why, for many people, the case doesn't feel fully resolved. And that's because of how the police handled it for so long. The lives of the victims matter just as much as any other person in any other neighborhood in Toronto. And again, those victims' names are Skanda Navaratnam, Basir Faze, Majid Kayan, Sarush Mahmudi, Karishna Kumar Kanagaratnam, Dean Lizoic, Saleem Essen, and Andrew Kinsman. And we'll finish the story with another quote from activist Nikki Ward, who said, quote, "Bruce MacArthur picked people he thought he could get away with killing because they were immigrants, people of color, maybe closeted, maybe homeless.

• 36:07Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the common thread tying these men together. And to learn that he was someone walking among us, a wolf in sheep's clothing, was sadly not surprising. Take exception to the phrase, 'he was one of our own,' because he most definitely was not. And that's the story of Toronto's gay village murders.

• 36:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. I'm so glad you covered that.

• 36:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I could have sworn I did.

• 36:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you do it when we were in Toronto?

• 36:33Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think so.

• 36:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 36:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 36:36Georgia Hardstark?

  That was amazing. I do think that we should be able to do stories that we did live that never got aired on the podcast now. You know what I mean?

• 36:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, but I think there's only like three.

• 36:46Georgia Hardstark?

  That we didn't ever air?

• 36:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, remember, remember, remember back in the days, like pre-COVID days, when we'd get down to it, we'd be like, no, that one's really bad. This audio's bad. And we'd be like, we don't care. We don't, we just want to put something up.

• 36:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Steven, post the, how's the audio from fucking, how's the Des Moines audio? Not great? Put it up.

• 37:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Put it up. We don't care.

• 37:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't do it this week. This week, my brain is fucking broken. We're like getting into COVID. Put up a fucking live episode, and then we just have a week off, and it would just be lovely and beautiful.

• 37:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It was just like, in that second apartment, things got real fucking intense.

• 37:19Georgia Hardstark?

  In the loft?

• 37:20Karen Kilgariff?

  In the loft. It was like, for me, it felt like it was all going up like this. But nothing else was coming back down. It was like me working multiple jobs and trying to do it. It was all very intense.

• 37:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, things were not good in that period.

• 37:36Karen Kilgariff?

  We'd just be like, Steven, fix it.

• 37:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course, Steven. Oh, Steven, love him.

• 37:42Georgia Hardstark?

  The holidays are coming, which means we'll all be spending more time away from home.

• 37:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Whether you're visiting family or doing something actually fun, you want to know your home is protected while you're away.

• 37:52Georgia Hardstark?

  That's why now is a good time to think about home security with SimpliSafe.

• 37:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Unlike traditional security systems that alert you after a break-in starts, SimpliSafe is designed to help stop intruders before they get inside. These days, you're worried about your house, you're out of town, and then something comes up and you get to look on your phone and SimpliSafe is going to show you not only the video of like, "It's a raccoon at your front door", but also that they have staff that's sitting there they already know. And if it was something different or worse, they would have already been on it.

• 38:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I really think that's invaluable peace of mind that just like relying on your neighbors, paying attention is not going to give you. We've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year. 70% off your new system with professional monitoring when you visit simplisafe.com/mfm.

• 38:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's simplisafe.com/mfm. And when you order, write in "MFM" at checkout and it tells them we sent you and it really helps the show.

• 38:46Georgia Hardstark?

  SimpliSafe, ahead of crime in real time. Goodbye.

• 38:50Speaker 02

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• 39:20Karen Kilgariff?

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• 39:24Georgia Hardstark?

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• 39:29Karen Kilgariff?

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• 39:36Georgia Hardstark?

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• 39:42Karen Kilgariff?

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• 39:50Georgia Hardstark?

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• 39:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I really do love Kachava, and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.

• 40:06Georgia Hardstark?

  It's such an easy way to get everything you need, and it tastes good, too, which is just huge bonus.

• 40:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So embrace your salty side.

• 40:12Georgia Hardstark?

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• 40:16Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Kachava, K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code MFM.

• 40:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 40:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

• 40:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 40:25Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna go in a totally different direction, as we are want to do.

• 40:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Good, good, good.

• 40:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I think you're gonna like this one.

• 40:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 40:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna tell you about what some people called a grifter, but some people called an international adventurer.

• 40:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 40:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a good spin on it, from the 1950s, who caused an uproar in Atlanta society and sent shockwaves throughout the pedigree Cocker Spaniel community, your favorite.

• 40:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I should have heard about this already.

• 40:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, okay, this is the story of someone we're gonna call for now Janet.

• 40:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Janet!

• 40:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Janet! The main sources for the story are a book called Confident Women: Swindlers, Grifters, and Shapeshifters of the Feminine Persuasion.

• 41:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 41:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Read that by Tori Telfer, and Reporting from the Tulsa World, your favorite paper.

• 41:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a good one.

• 41:11Georgia Hardstark?

  The rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.

• 41:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm definitely reading that book for sure.

• 41:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you should. All right, so here we are. It's 1954, we're in Decatur, Georgia. It's an Atlanta suburb that borders the city limits, so it's kind of small towny still. And then a glamorous, somewhat mysterious, middle-aged woman has just moved into town with her 15-year-old niece. The woman introduces herself to the neighbors as Janet Gray and says that the teen is Candace Victoria Lane, her niece, who goes by Candy, so her name is Candy Lane.

• 41:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Which is already like...

• 41:43Georgia Hardstark?

  On purpose?

• 41:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Okay, is her middle name Kane? Because what are we doing?

• 41:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Janet says she's from Washington DC and the circumstances that have brought her to Atlanta are absolutely tragic. She's just lost her husband, but the details are kind of vague. Janet lost a child at birth, she said, and then two weeks after her husband's sudden death, her last remaining child was hit by a school bus and killed. That's her horror story. Don't get upset.

• 42:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 42:10Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not true.

• 42:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Great. It doesn't feel very true.

• 42:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not, but she comes with this sob story.

• 42:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 42:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Why she's here and hey, why I have a lot of fucking money too.

• 42:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 42:21Georgia Hardstark?

  So Janet and Candy settle right into the new neighborhood. Well, actually Janet settles in Candy starts at a local prestigious high school, but she has trouble making friends and she's frequently out of school due to poor health. She's just not getting into the high school spirit and not being accepted Candy Lane.

• 42:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 42:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Also, everyone thinks it's weird that Candy, who is 15 years old, looks way older than that. She's called, quote, "Built like Marilyn Monroe."

• 42:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 42:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Like the word buxom is thrown around a lot. So they're like, this isn't a 15 year old girl.

• 42:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 42:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? Something's fishy, but it's the 1950s. People believe what you tell them.

• 42:57Karen Kilgariff?

  They just are reading the one newspaper.

• 42:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 42:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And yeah.

• 43:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's like simpler time.

• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  You haven't heard about all the crazy people in the world, the way we get to these days.

• 43:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, exactly. And that's why you listen to this podcast.

• 43:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:12Georgia Hardstark?

  So meanwhile Janet, she appears to be thriving. She buys a big house in an upscale neighborhood, hires contractors to put in a big pool in the backyard, as well as a big kennel, because it turns out that one of Janet's big passions, like yours, is cocker spaniels.

• 43:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Cocker spaniels, always.

• 43:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. Have you ever met one? I've never met a cocker spaniel, I don't think.

• 43:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Are they the ones that are kind of brown and long ears, floppy ears?

• 43:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like blondish with like, it's like curly or like wavy kind of.

• 43:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I feel like that was a standard dog in that, right around here.

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  I was just holding it like it was a show dog.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. This is tail up, head up?

• 43:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I think I've met a couple, but my Aunt Jean next door, they had Springer spaniels.

• 43:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay.

• 43:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And Nellie was their dog. And I think she was, she may have been a breed dog in some way. Cause that's what like farm people do that sometimes or they're like, when they have puppies, we sell them.

• 44:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, totally. Yeah. I don't know the personality. I'm assuming that they're, I don't know why, haughty. That's just like my take on looking at them, but.

• 44:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Cocker spaniel?

• 44:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, who knows? Maybe it's because they're show dogs and I'm just like.

• 44:15Karen Kilgariff?

  They're like princess, princessy?

• 44:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that feels right.

• 44:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And so in a very short time, while she's living in Decatur, she acquires between 30 and 50 of them. Some of which have won big prizes at dog shows.

• 44:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 44:28Georgia Hardstark?

  So these are like, she's like a show dog lady.

• 44:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Collector.

• 44:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Collector. 30 to 50 dogs. No, thank you. And her neighbors hated her and you know it.

• 44:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Just up with the dawn.

• 44:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah, one starts barking. Oh my God.

• 44:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 44:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, no, you can't do that.

• 44:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, in just a regular neighborhood?

• 44:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it was a well-to-do neighborhood where there's probably lots of like land.

• 44:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I would hope so.

• 44:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, they like built a pool in the backyard. They built, but it wasn't like, you know, countryside. It was like a neighborhood, a well-to-do neighborhood.

• 44:58Karen Kilgariff?

  30 dogs.

• 44:59Georgia Hardstark?

  30 to 50 dogs.

• 45:00Karen Kilgariff?

  50 dogs. Put 50 dogs in this room right now.

• 45:03Georgia Hardstark?

  No, you can't.

• 45:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll fucking tell you.

• 45:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I'll start screaming. Please don't. It's too many. I mean, I love dogs, but like 10 tops.

• 45:09Karen Kilgariff?

  30 to 50 of anything. Like imagine like 30 to 50 Snickers bars. I'd be like, this is crazy, guys.

• 45:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I do cats. I would do cats. I would do cats.

• 45:18Karen Kilgariff?

  You're getting there.

• 45:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I would, I'd take, I'd take them. They're so much more like manageable and they don't bark.

• 45:24Karen Kilgariff?

  You're like, can I get a slightly smaller home for these cats? I really want to feel all of them.

• 45:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, poor Vince. Okay. So one of her dogs is named Capital Gain. And it actually wins its division at a dog show in South Carolina in 1956. And she also acquires a famous Cocker Spaniel named Rise and Shine. I guess they're like racehorses where they have weird, nasty names.

• 45:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, Rise and Shine.

• 45:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Who won the Westminster Dog Show.

• 45:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Holy shit.

• 45:48Georgia Hardstark?

  It was still a thing back then.

• 45:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. It still is a thing in our family.

• 45:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you put it on immediately.

• 45:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Isn't it like Thanksgiving Day? I feel like there's a holiday we watch it as Thanksgiving or Christmas. You're thinking of the Super Bowl.

• 46:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's on Thanksgiving, right?

• 46:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep, every year.

• 46:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So Janet quickly ingratiates herself into Atlanta society. She is very glamorous. She's like older lady, but that just means, you know, like-

• 46:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Bigger jewelry?

• 46:14Georgia Hardstark?

  No, just like the age thing is like an old lady is in her 50s then. You know what I mean? Like it's not, but she acts like an older lady, but she is very like refined. She has a closet full of beautiful dresses and furs and hats and her home is immaculately furnished. It's like gorgeous.

• 46:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

  She's known around town as a very generous tipper, which we love. We got served by a murderino. I forgot.

• 46:38Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 46:39Georgia Hardstark?

  We got served by a murderino at this restaurant called La Supreme when we were, Vince and I were in Detroit last week. I think her name was Marie. And she was so wonderful and like gave us like, you know, after dinner drinks and dessert and was just so nice. And then I was like, Vince, what if we don't tip her? Wouldn't that be funny? I was totally kidding, but like, obviously, but like how, what a great way to ruin everything.

• 46:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly.

• 47:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Just not tip.

• 47:01Karen Kilgariff?

  She's just being super cool and then you're just, the tip is a weird Bible quote.

• 47:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're just like, bye Marie.

• 47:07Georgia Hardstark?

  How funny with that. I mean, not at all. We obviously never. Yeah.

• 47:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Never.

• 47:10Georgia Hardstark?

  But just kind of like, what if?

• 47:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, that reminds me of walking down Michigan Avenue. I know, I think we're on Whacker or something, but when we passed Megan, who saw you first as we were walking and said hi to you.

• 47:22Georgia Hardstark?

  In Chicago?

• 47:23Karen Kilgariff?

  In Chicago.

• 47:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Who was listening to our podcast as she walked by us?

• 47:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Listening to the podcast and then walked and I was like 10 steps behind you or whatever.

• 47:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And I turned around, she got, she looked at me, she was like, oh my God. And then I pointed back to you, I was like, and that one's here too.

• 47:36Karen Kilgariff?

  She's like, and by the time she got up to me, it kind of looked like she was crying, but it was so cold that it could have just been that. But she just pulled an ear pod out and was just like, I'm listening to you now. And I'm like, this must be so weird.

• 47:48Georgia Hardstark?

  What a trip, right?

• 47:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry to fuck with you, Megan.

• 47:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the matrix. And she's also one of the best customers at the local dressmaker, obviously. She's highly recognizable around town because she drives a bright pink Lincoln.

• 48:00Karen Kilgariff?

  There's like a scammer thing where they're basically like all eyes on me.

• 48:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 48:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And then I think the, the like logic of the people around is like, it couldn't be them. They wouldn't draw this much attention.

• 48:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And themselves. Right. And like, everyone else loves her and is around her all the time. Yeah. It's like a chameleon kind of thing. Yeah. No one knows exactly the source of her wealth, but everyone assumes that her dead husband had a lot of money. People also vaguely allude to her coming from a family of money. And so they think that she's the daughter of a high ranking military officer. I'm sure she's like planted little seeds here and there. So it's kind of a surprise when Janet gets a job as a bookkeeper at a local doctor's office in Decatur. Because why would she need a job if she's rich? But people assume that she likes to keep herself busy. She works there about three and a half years and life seems to continue on normally. This all comes to a grinding halt at the end of July, 1957,

• 48:53Georgia Hardstark?

  when Janet's bosses from the doctor's clinic where she works give her a call. They said they'd hired an auditor to go over the books because something seemed fishy. And the auditor had found that about $100,000 appeared to be unaccounted for. In today's money, what they called ring, ring, ring nowadays. And they're like, hey, we got audited. Here's how much is missing. Like, what would a lot of fucking money be? Well, it's the 50s. Uh huh. So that's like, I was gonna say 100 years ago.

• 49:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Like a million and a half? A million. Good job. Fuck. But imagine being like, hey, we're a mil- Short on the till. Yeah. And you're the person who's in charge of all of that. You're the one with the big pencil in your hand. Can you come? And they're like, can you come in and like explain this? And she's like, absolutely. Like, I'll be in on Monday. Like, don't even worry about it. And I'm sure it's not a big deal. You know, and they're like, okay, good. Cause they like love her and trust her. And also the $100,000 number goes up like later. So that's just like kind of a- Starting point. Starting point, yeah. But as soon as she hangs up the phone. She springs into action. She rents three moving vans and hires a handyman to come help her move out. Two vans are filled with furniture and clothing, and one is filled with

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  about 40 cocker spaniels.

• 50:13Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 50:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Into the truck, guys, up the little ramp.

• 50:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Was there any cushions in there or anything for them?

• 50:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. And she finds homes for a few other dogs. And also, the number of cocker spaniels is sometimes changes as well.

• 50:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:28Georgia Hardstark?

  The next morning, she and her, quote, niece get into the pink Lincoln with three moving vans following behind, and they skedaddle out of town.

• 50:37Karen Kilgariff?

  But they do. Now, can I just say this? Maybe we've all learned this up until this point, or since that time. If you're gonna call and say, hey, we've noticed some questions in the books. Do you mind coming in on Monday? You're calling from the car outside their house.

• 50:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 50:53Karen Kilgariff?

  So that you can see if that's what they're about to do.

• 50:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And then that's how you know.

• 50:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 50:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Georgia Hardstark?

  So they didn't have car phones back then, did they?

• 51:01Karen Kilgariff?

  They had their hands. They could have very easily.

• 51:04Georgia Hardstark?

  They had a banana they could hold up as a phone, didn't they? All right, here's the truth. Janet's real name is Margaret Lydia Burton, although her maiden name is McGlashan.

• 51:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, Mary.

• 51:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Mary McGlashan. Margaret is born in 1906 in Taizhen, China, born to British well-to-do parents. Margaret's father dies when she's about 11, and the family moves first to England and then to Canada. By the time she's 28, Margaret is living in Panama and manages a rug importing company.

• 51:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 51:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Which has ties to part of China where she grew up. So then she marries an American named Jasper Burton. And in the 1930s, they have a baby girl named Sheila. Sheila, it turns out, is the real identity of her niece Candy Cane.

• 51:49Karen Kilgariff?

  It's her daughter.

• 51:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Not in high school.

• 51:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Who is 20 years old.

• 51:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So they were not wrong. Okay, well, will we hear more about that later? Kind of. The why? We'll talk about it. Okay. We'll theorize. Okay. We're really good at that. Okay. So it's not clear why Sheila had to pretend to be younger and a niece. Maybe like she was vain and didn't want to seem like an elderly mother with a 20. I don't know. It's just, there's no reasoning that I can understand from that. Okay. But it's thought that maybe Margaret wanted to protect her daughter from being culpable for any embezzlement. So that's, that's the positive one. The negative could be whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah. So the first known case of that kind of embezzlement crops up in 1939. And by that point, the rug company has transferred Margaret to Honolulu. Margaret and Jasper separate when Sheila is about two years old and he stays behind

• 52:39Georgia Hardstark?

  in Panama. Margaret's bosses realize she's been stealing money from the company, but before her case goes to court, Margaret and her baby daughter, Skidaddle, there's a theme, to Los Angeles where her mother and brother live. There, the LAPD arrests her for the Honolulu embezzlement case, but the governor of California, for some reason, declines to extradite her to Hawaii. So shortly after this, and I wrote warning to Knit-erinos, Margaret collects investments from Los Angeles knitting enthusiasts, saying that she's planning to open up a yarn shop. Oh. That's her scheme. Instead, she makes off with close to $10,000, which is $113,000 in today's money. And it's at this point that Margaret starts using aliases for herself and her daughter.

• 53:21Georgia Hardstark?

  By the time she's caught, she has about 22 different identities. Yes. So a lot. Great. It's easy to do back then. Yeah. Margaret and Sheila eventually end up in San Antonio, and it's here that Margaret gets a job at a dog kennel and discovers her passion for cocker spaniels. I mean, can you imagine the first day she walked into that kennel and suddenly she's like, I gotta get 50 of these yesterday. Imagine 50 chihuahuas. If she had fallen in love with chihuahuas instead. There's so many dogs I wouldn't want 50 of. I'd do 50 chihuahuas. Yeah, I would do 50 chihuahuas. I'd do 50 terriers like Frank and Blossom. I like that kind of dog. Maybe it's because Cookie's a chihuahua. I mean, like, definitely. Yeah. Our dogs have done a good job representing themselves and their breeds to us.

• 54:05Georgia Hardstark?

  They've, they've indoctrinated us into their. I'm a true believer, but there's some dogs where I'm just like, never. Yeah. So she starts using some of her ill gotten money to buy show dogs. They cost thousands of dollars. There's also reports that she steals some dogs from other owners. Yeah. Yoink. There's not a lot of information about how many dogs were stolen and how she would have done this because they're show dogs, so they're kind of shuffled around a bit. Like, no one knows who the actual owner, who the breeder, who the trainer is. So then throughout the 40s and early 50s, Margaret and Sheila bounce around all over town. New Orleans, Denver, St. Louis, Norfolk, Virginia. In each place, Margaret gets a new job, often as a bookkeeper in a doctor's office.

• 54:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And when patients come in, and back then, they paid with mostly cash, right? Lots of cash flowing.

• 54:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like, yoink, do, do.

• 54:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. Margaret pockets a lot of it. When she gets caught or close to being caught, she and Sheila skedaddle.

• 55:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Good.

• 55:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:06Karen Kilgariff?

  What a way to live.

• 55:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:08Karen Kilgariff?

  As my dad said to me once, there's some people that can't keep their hands out of the till. And at the time, I had been stealing $20 a week from the job I was at so I could buy beer.

• 55:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 55:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I'd only done it twice.

• 55:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:24Karen Kilgariff?

  And then I was like, oh, no. And I never did it again.

• 55:27Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good.

• 55:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I justified it. I was like, they're paying me minimum wage. And then, and then, and then. And I was like, dude. And then the second time, oh, it was because the person, I also worked at the student union at Sac State. And our boss, who was always like, kind of in everyone's business and da, da, da. I mean, what have you been doing? Can we see, will you do the, the, um, count again on your thing?

• 55:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 55:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And they had embezzled like $500,000.

• 55:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit, shut up.

• 55:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. So that had just happened.

• 55:59Georgia Hardstark?

  How do you do that?

• 56:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Same thing, where I think it's just like, just a little bit here and a little bit there. And you work there for 20 years and no one suspects you.

• 56:06Georgia Hardstark?

  All the jobs I've had that I've had to work the till, which is a lot of them, like the count out at the end of the night. If I were under by five cents.

• 56:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 56:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I would be devastated.

• 56:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 56:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Like that, because I was so good. Like, I was like, there's no fucking way. I did that, but there was always some amount of money you were under.

• 56:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 56:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Or over randomly.

• 56:24Karen Kilgariff?

  You were also in trouble, like when I worked at Gap, you were in trouble if you were over and if you were under.

• 56:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 56:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Like you couldn't win.

• 56:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 56:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That just reminds me of though, you keeping perfect track of our merch money in the beginning. Where you would just be like, here's, there it is, just so you know.

• 56:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you glad I'm not an embezzler?

• 56:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I really am. I would have, it would have been very difficult on top of everything else.

• 56:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Where do you think that Podloft money came from?

• 56:47Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn it. Where'd you get all these frames for these pictures?

• 56:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so that brings us back to 1957 when Janet, that's the fake name, who is about 51 at this point, fails to show up at her doctor's office and to cater. And her coworkers call the police, they quickly loop in the FBI because they're assuming she's crossing state lines. She's driving a fucking pink car and has two moving vans following her, one of which is full of cocker spaniels. So, one of the agents says, it'll be like, quote, "finding an elephant in a haystack." You know?

• 57:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like, not the smoothest.

• 57:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Get her.

• 57:22Georgia Hardstark?

  In actuality, Margaret proves not so easy to find. It turns out that the FBI's best clue is the trail of cocker spaniels. Okay, so a moving van full of cocker spaniels is like, reported as a very funny, comical thing, but in actuality, it's clearly not safe or humane, as you said.

• 57:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no fucking pillows. And two of the 40-ish dogs actually don't survive the journey.

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 57:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is so sad.

• 57:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It'd be so hot.

• 57:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So hot and probably no water.

• 57:49Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it's horrible.

• 57:50Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's awful. Most of the other dogs are dropped off with a trainer in North Carolina. But Margaret keeps three of the dogs herself. She's, she's in love with them. And the FBI.

• 58:00Karen Kilgariff?

  She's in love with them except for the one she killed.

• 58:03Georgia Hardstark?

  She's in love with these three, I guess.

• 58:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Marise and Shine, Capital Gain, and Piccolo Pete.

• 58:08Karen Kilgariff?

  My favorite fireworks.

• 58:11Georgia Hardstark?

  And the FBI finds the moving vans and the Pink Lincoln abandoned in South Carolina. As the news of Margaret's flight from Atlanta spreads, she's actually seen by many as a lovable anti-hero. And it's kind of a feminist thing, too, where they're like, she got over on these like, smart doctors who think they know everything. And people are rooting for her to get out of the country and evade capture. They're like, you know. But one group that's not impressed at all is the southeastern chapter of the American Spaniel Club.

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they liked her so much, and she was a prominent member, that they had been in the process of naming her as the regional leader. So she was an actress. She was good at fooling people.

• 58:49Karen Kilgariff?

  True sociopath.

• 58:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. One member says, quote, "It was like picking up the paper and reading that President Eisenhower was a spy for the communists," end quote. Which is like, hey, welcome to today.

• 58:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Hi, how are you?

• 59:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, guess what? 1957, I've got some news for you. The FBI underestimates Margaret completely. She manages to evade capture for about a month, getting us to the end of August 1957. She and Sheila wind up in Tulsa. They rent a house. Margaret assumes a new identity, going by Madge Burton.

• 59:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Madge.

• 59:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Bring that name back.

• 59:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Pretty great.

• 59:24Georgia Hardstark?

  A baby named Madge. Smoking.

• 59:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Aw, let's smoke a baby.

• 59:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at Madge, she loves her. We're drinking slams.

• 59:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Let her have another one before she goes to sleep. Just let her.

• 59:33Georgia Hardstark?

  She'll go right down. Just give her.

• 59:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Two more cigarettes.

• 59:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And give her a Cosmo and a cigarette, and she'll go right down. So she goes to a doctor's office and gets a job there.

• 59:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 59:46Georgia Hardstark?

  They don't ask for any references because Madge tells them, her husband was a doctor, she worked in his office for years and years, and he left her for another woman. So she doesn't have references, but she's got a lot of experience. And they're like, great, get over here. And she actually does seem to have a lot of experience because she has done that. So they believe her.

• 1:00:01Karen Kilgariff?

  She's stolen at all the great doctors' offices around the Midwest.

• 1:00:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Then, after Madge had been at the clinic for a week or two, a story about Margaret Burton, her real identity, runs in the Tulsa world. And it catches the attention of the office manager who hired her, partly because of, obviously, working in a doctor's office, but also Margaret had a lot of freckles. And so she matched that up. And the article describes her daughter, Sheila, as, quote, "buxom." And the office manager had seen this daughter and was like, bingo, it's Jessica Rabbit. You know?

• 1:00:34Karen Kilgariff?

  The 15-year-old?

• 1:00:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the 20-year-old.

• 1:00:36Karen Kilgariff?

  The 15, 20-year-old?

• 1:00:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. So the office manager is a rat and calls the FBI. I'm kidding. And when they knock on the door of the house rented in Tulsa, they are greeted by the daughter Sheila and three cocker spaniels, which is like, change up the dogs or like giving it away.

• 1:00:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Or at least put them away for a bit.

• 1:00:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Or like put a disguise on them.

• 1:00:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, raccoon disguises.

• 1:00:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Three raccoons. What are you guys doing? Well, there's no cocker spaniel here. I guess we gotta get out of here. This can't be the same place. Margaret and Sheila are both promptly arrested and extradited back to Georgia where they're slapped with state charges of forgery and larceny. It turns out that the federal charges don't stick. Like she gets lucky. And so the three dogs are all brought to a local kennel, but they're technically impounded, like with all of Margaret's other property. Like, can you imagine going to that fucking sale?

• 1:01:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:01:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. Like, up next on the block. The American Spaniel Club raises what is basically today about $17,000 to buy back the Best in Show dog, Rise and Shine.

• 1:01:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Pickle Pete, come here. Come here, darling.

• 1:01:42Georgia Hardstark?

  It's me, it's your mother. That's your mommy. So all this comes out in the press and Sheila's birth father, her dad Jasper Burton, who hasn't seen her since she left Panama as a toddler, comes out of the woodwork. It turns out he'd been living in nearby Athens, Georgia. He's thrilled to find his daughter again. And the charges against Sheila are dropped completely. It does seem like she had nothing to do with her mother's schemes. That again, started when she was a baby. And you've got to imagine the mindfuck she grew up with.

• 1:02:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Nonstop.

• 1:02:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Nonstop mindfuck.

• 1:02:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Everything is either for money or cocker spaniels.

• 1:02:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And we gotta get the fuck out of here now. We have to leave. You're not this person, you're that person. That probably went on her entire life.

• 1:02:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I wonder if the high school thing is like, you can go to high school in Decatur when we get there.

• 1:02:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:02:31Karen Kilgariff?

  You can go to high school at the next place.

• 1:02:32Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it'll be great. You're gonna go, yeah.

• 1:02:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen, you'll be a cheerleader this year. And she just keeps on doing it.

• 1:02:37Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's kind of a, what's it called? Not Rosemary's Baby, but Mommy Dearest.

• 1:02:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:02:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Where it's just a little like, I mean, yeah, there's gotta be some kind of like trauma bond with her mother. There, right?

• 1:02:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And also, I think only child, I'm only saying this because I've observed my sister and my niece, where it's like, it's closer than average.

• 1:02:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Because there's just one of each.

• 1:02:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:02:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And so they're a team.

• 1:03:00Georgia Hardstark?

  We have each other. Literally, you can't make friends because you can't tell them anything truthful.

• 1:03:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, everything about your mother's life is this insane lie that you're trying to fit into.

• 1:03:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:03:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Because also, if you were thinking about, if you're past the age of high school, but you're moving to these new towns, what are you supposed to do? Hang around the pool hall or something?

• 1:03:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Karen Kilgariff?

  What are you doing?

• 1:03:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:03:21Karen Kilgariff?

  To socialize, you wouldn't be able to.

• 1:03:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm sure your mom tracks everything that you do.

• 1:03:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? When reporters ask her questions, they say that she's shy, reserved, and says that she's just scared that she's never going to see her mom again. So Margaret faces charges all over the country, and her Georgia trial begins in December of 1957, ends in a mistrial because a juror hears his pastor at a sermon talking shit, essentially, on Margaret. Shit, and so it's shit the juror's not supposed to know, and so it's a mistrial.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 1:03:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 1:03:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's actually the ultimate getting out of it.

• 1:03:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not his fault.

• 1:04:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It was church.

• 1:04:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's my fucking, you know how pastors have big mouths and shit?

• 1:04:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Trying to be a good Christian man.

• 1:04:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Gossip gossip, these fucking pastors.

• 1:04:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Every Sunday.

• 1:04:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Every Sunday, just talking shit about cases. At the second trial, Margaret says that actually, the doctors at the clinic she worked for were trying to evade taxes, and she caught them, and so they tried to accuse her of embezzling.

• 1:04:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:04:24Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not her fault.

• 1:04:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Nope, she's the victim.

• 1:04:26Georgia Hardstark?

  She also faints a lot during the trial.

• 1:04:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:04:28Georgia Hardstark?

  As you do.

• 1:04:29Karen Kilgariff?

  One of these?

• 1:04:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. You know how you just, women just faint all the time?

• 1:04:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, sitting down in the witness box.

• 1:04:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Karen Kilgariff?

  She slide out of the chair, like comedy style, just slide underneath.

• 1:04:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, hey, I'm fainting. And people are skeptical of it even then. And in the end, she's found guilty of two counts of larceny and two counts of forgery, and serves two years in prison. When she gets out, some of the other states have dropped their charges, but several others opt to ask the federal government to deport her, rather than her going to trial, since she's actually a British citizen originally. So they're like, we won't charge her and try her if you get her out of here. Before she's deported, though, she's charged in Los Angeles for the knitting shop scheme, pleads guilty and serves about nine months in the county jail. And then Sheila, her daughter, winds up moving to LA to live with Margaret's brother back in LA. He's a movie producer. His name is Ian McGlashan.

• 1:05:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And Ally looked it up on IMDb and the only credit to his name is a 1964 movie called Three Nuts in Search of a Bolt. Your favorite.

• 1:05:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:05:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Your favorite late night movie.

• 1:05:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my God, those nuts are nuts.

• 1:05:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Spenguli. It's a Spenguli classic. It seems like the daughter lives a quiet life. Like, there's no information about her online. There's like a photo on her, like, find a grave, looks like a grandma, she's smiling. That's kind of all we've got.

• 1:05:50Karen Kilgariff?

  There's just a tiny picture on the bottom. It's no dogs allowed.

• 1:05:54Georgia Hardstark?

  She, from that day on, she fucking hates dogs.

• 1:05:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Never been around a dog since.

• 1:05:58Georgia Hardstark?

  It seems like she lives a quiet life. She gets married and has one child, and she dies in 2015. As an older lady. Margaret, meanwhile, is deported back to England in 1960. Though some point, and no one seems to know when, she schemes her way back to the US and dies in Los Angeles in 1992. So I bet she was back with her daughter.

• 1:06:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet she was.

• 1:06:20Georgia Hardstark?

  And who knows what kind of caper she got into that she didn't get caught for.

• 1:06:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Right, because now she's a whole new person.

• 1:06:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet she was the one at the grocery store who's like, I'll give you a 20, and like, actually, give me back the change for that. And she does like the change thing. And, oh, no, give me five, five fives for that. And I'll give you back your 20.

• 1:06:35Karen Kilgariff?

  She could be the old lady, when I was so broke and I found a $20 bill. I put it in my pocket of my corduroy pants. And then I was in the super cheap sunglasses store on Hollywood Boulevard, because I was going down to like the Walgreens or whatever. And I was standing there like, oh, I can buy a pair of sunglasses for like five bucks. And this old lady came and like was standing to the side of me. And I wasn't looking. And finally, I looked and she's standing there smiling. She's like, hi. And I was like, hi. And then she walked away. My 20 bucks is gone.

• 1:07:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Shut the fuck. I thought she was gonna say, that's my 20. No, she straight up robbed you.

• 1:07:12Karen Kilgariff?

  She robbed me and then made me look her in the eye with a big smile. And I bet you it was fucking Janet.

• 1:07:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I bet you anything. She was in Los Angeles.

• 1:07:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It was her.

• 1:07:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my, how amazing would that be? Here's her photo. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's her. So yeah, she dies in Los Angeles in 1992 at the age of 85.

• 1:07:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Could have been.

• 1:07:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yep. And that is the story of the serial embezzler or the international adventurer,

• 1:07:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Margaret Lydia Burton.

• 1:07:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow, that was great.

• 1:07:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. There's only a few photos of her too, and like no information about after she went back. There's a photo of her getting, yeah, she's getting out of this car. She kind of looks like a little old lady, even though she's got like no wrinkles. She's like the little old lady shampoo set, glamorous dress, and she's got the like railroad case with her makeup in. And she's getting out of the car at the courthouse like it's a fucking premiere of a movie and she's the star.

• 1:08:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And she's like just eating it up. And it's just kind of like, God, I bet she was fun.

• 1:08:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I bet she was fun. And I bet you that's why the press or like, that's why the public was able to get this kind of counter like anti-hero thing going for her. Cause it's like, well, you're showing up in an outfit. You seem to have a great attitude. Like Americans don't need much more.

• 1:08:27Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Yeah. You're getting it over on the man.

• 1:08:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I kind of love that.

• 1:08:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So fuck it.

• 1:08:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Fun. Be a stealer.

• 1:08:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Be a stealer.

• 1:08:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, he's great. Thank you.

• 1:08:38Karen Kilgariff?

  He did it.

• 1:08:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want to do some fucking hoorays?

• 1:08:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 1:08:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Should we be doing fucking hoorays too? You and I?

• 1:08:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 1:08:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, we don't have one.

• 1:08:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Next week?

• 1:08:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Want to start next week?

• 1:08:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Mine's Steveo. Every, every week I want to give this name.

• 1:08:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Steveo!

• 1:08:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, let's do some fucking hoorays. At the end of the show, we do just things you're fucking happy about. Hashtag us on Instagram or on YouTube page on this episode.

• 1:09:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. Mine's from email. My first one. You want me to read it?

• 1:09:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Do it. That works.

• 1:09:07Karen Kilgariff?

  The subject line is Karen's yogurt fucking hooray. And it says, hi, everyone. I'm an early listener. And your podcast has given me so much over the years, laughter, comfort, mental health support. But Karen talking about her little morning yogurt has saved my coffee routine. Do you remember this? I just learned on TikTok, of course, that to save the cortisol zip of drinking coffee on an empty stomach in the morning, I just drink a little drinkable yogurt first and let my body process that, then drink the coffee like an hour later.

• 1:09:39Georgia Hardstark?

  I also heard eat a couple walnuts, just like two walnuts.

• 1:09:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, for the same, same reason?

• 1:09:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:09:44Karen Kilgariff?

  See, I can't eat walnuts. I gotta get a cold sore.

• 1:09:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no. Okay. Don't do this.

• 1:09:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I did it all separate. Says, "Save my morning coffee routine and my esophagus, and for that I am forever grateful. So fucking hooray for midlife hacks and a tureen of black coffee to keep us going through the terrible." Kate.

• 1:10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah, I love it. I love hacks so much.

• 1:10:05Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a good hack.

• 1:10:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:06Karen Kilgariff?

  To, to realize that I was just piling on, like, because I think I'm trying to get started in the morning. And it's like, you're literally signaling more cortisol.

• 1:10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Seriously. Yeah, it's a monster. Okay, mine is from YouTube, from our YouTube page, youtube.com/ExactlyRightMedia. And this is from a Kelsey, because remember we were saying that we have to have Kelsey?

• 1:10:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I had a couple of those in there.

• 1:10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  "I'm a Kelsey and I have a fucking hooray today. First, my older sister, shout out Celia, got me listening to you from the start and I've been hooked ever since. Today, my fucking hooray is my mom receiving life-saving surgery for an aortic aneurysm. She had a complicated health history and I like to think her doctors were nerds who wanted to get to the bottom of it because they ended up coincidentally finding the aneurysm on an unrelated scan. And today she got it removed and is going to be fine."

• 1:10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay. So scary.

• 1:10:58Georgia Hardstark?

  "Her first words to my stepfather when she woke up were, 'Do my girls know I'm okay? She truly is the best. When you were shouting out Kelsey's at the end of the episode, I was like, I have to share this.'" SSDGM@7KS45.

• 1:11:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Kels.

• 1:11:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Kelsey!

• 1:11:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so glad your mom's okay.

• 1:11:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That's amazing.

• 1:11:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Very, very scary.

• 1:11:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Get your checkups, everyone.

• 1:11:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Okay, this is from Instagram. It was a social media comment on episode 473, and it is from Deb Miller Landau, the author of the book, "A Devil Went Down to Georgia", which is based on a recent story I did about the murder of Lita McClintock.

• 1:11:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god!

• 1:11:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It says, "My hashtag fucking hooray is that this little murderino's dream came true.

• 1:11:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god!

• 1:11:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Several months ago, I emailed MFM and today, on episode 473, Karen told the story of Lita McClintock based on my book, 'A Devil Went Down to Georgia.' Thank you for honoring Lita. Enough with rich white guys getting away with murder and all the other horrible shit, right?"

• 1:11:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Yes, Deb Miller.

• 1:11:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Lando, huge shout out to Maren for loving the book and getting this story on the show. Fucking hooray to you all.

• 1:12:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that.

• 1:12:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, isn't that great?

• 1:12:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 1:12:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Congratulations, Deb Miller-Lando. What a great book.

• 1:12:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Good job. Okay, my last one is also a YouTube comment. It was commented on episode 473 on YouTube. Fucking hooray. April Fool's Day marked five years sober from alcohol for me. It did not seem possible, and it wasn't easy, but the blessings have been abundant. I left the medical field in 2022 and am now supervising a group of badass police record clerks.

• 1:12:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:12:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks for all you do, SSDGM, Ashley, at Ashley William dash D5M.

• 1:12:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Congratulations, Ashley.

• 1:12:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Five years.

• 1:12:38Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a long time.

• 1:12:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't.

• 1:12:41Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a big deal.

• 1:12:41Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a big deal. That's amazing.

• 1:12:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 1:12:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Good job. Send us your fucking hurraids, you guys. Maybe we'll do ours next week, too.

• 1:12:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we'll start doing some, too.

• 1:12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:48Karen Kilgariff?

  We'll have a little more gratitude in our lives. That's a good idea.

• 1:12:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it.

• 1:12:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, thank you, guys, for listening. We appreciate you so much.

• 1:12:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And stay sexy.

• 1:12:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 1:12:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.

• 1:13:01Speaker 03

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:13:10Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right production. Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 1:13:16Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 1:13:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

• 1:13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:13:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:13:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:13:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe.

• 1:13:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:13:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:13:51Georgia Hardstark?

  With Cheap Caribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:13:56Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:13:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to Budget Beach Bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:14:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stressful Vacation planning should be.

• 1:14:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye. You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 1:14:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 1:14:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.

• 1:14:22Karen Kilgariff?

  If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.

• 1:14:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 1:14:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.

• 1:14:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle. Goodbye.

• 1:14:45Speaker 03

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:14:58Speaker 04

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or hardened circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair,

• 1:15:43Speaker 04

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.