Pod Insights The Way I Heard It with Mike Rowe 466: Winn Claybaugh—Hairdressers Rule the World About this episode Mike sits down with the dean and co-founder of Paul Mitchell Schools to talk about how an industry built on scissors, sinks, and human connection quietly shapes culture, opportunity, and second chances. Known by just about everyone who's met him as relentlessly—and genuinely—nice, Winn shares his improbable journey from former meth addict to one of the most influential educators in beauty, his deep commitment to philanthropy, and the philosophy behind his book Be Nice (or Else!) https://www.amazon.com/Be-Nice-Else-Whats-You/dp/0974993999/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1339205732982424&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9. GNacTvKGZyRF29ZX0lRF1OEa4MC42pE0mB1htq0YEtgsEkCBs1qYNrgc4fI49Vljj_v7Z7iI9oj9uSCj7x6j1jiljMx0LTHmFXM5amAzngzKdjuFEbTqF8bqw-60RInV8HRLKkfWtpV7qsJfhZDT2rKR8QL7TKy77wjz2tozZBhesuJy8ihjJ91Gnwx60rwqrI-UwRMUXs4YYWgwuRYrmAkr2W9hFA2a7Z7bnXjjr_o.4FqVnHXDe4GHqrDaD_uXdmG9VSWJR1pRAUZf-x4K3HY&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83700763965360&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=44168&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83700715184932%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=22560_13531063&keywords=be+nice+or+else+book&mcid=3ee06964a0303e32baf84296a3b8eb79&msclkid=3784237415f613cfabe44a0c11e9e7fc&qid=1769473063&sr=8-1. It's a conversation about redemption, dignity in work, and the unexpected people who end up running the world—one haircut at a time.
Transcript 15,771 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Mike Rowe? So I'm in North Carolina, probably four years ago, shooting an episode of Dirty Jobs.
0:10 Speaker 01 Okay.
0:10 Mike Rowe? It's Mike Rowe, by the way. It's the way I heard it.
0:12 Speaker 01 Yep.
0:12 Mike Rowe? And I realized I need a haircut. It had been like four months. So I go into this salon. It's called Cut. And this woman named Alyssa immediately starts to give me such a weird, sassy, hard time. She's so, just likable, funny, pretty young girl, who was about to go on a break, but agreed to stay and cut my hair.
0:35 Speaker 01 Did she know you were Mike Rowe?
0:36 Mike Rowe? She did. She said her dad was a big fan, and that he had forced her to watch Dirty Jobs from time to time.
0:42 Speaker 01 Forced her?
0:43 Mike Rowe? Yeah. That's the kind of sass I'm talking about.
0:46 Speaker 01 Okay, gotcha.
0:46 Mike Rowe? Like, she wasn't really capable of paying me an honest compliment. But she gave me a pretty good haircut. And during our conversation, I learned that she worked in another salon on the other side of town, and that she also was a hostess in a restaurant that her family owned.
1:01 Speaker 01 Three jobs?
1:02 Mike Rowe? Three jobs, every day, working 12, 15-hour days.
1:06 Speaker 01 Wow.
1:07 Mike Rowe? And so I wrote about this girl who cut my hair on Facebook. And it was just one of those posts that was shared literally 200,000 times, reached millions and millions of people.
1:18 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:19 Mike Rowe? Anyhow, flash forward, well, not really yet. The last thing she said to me is, "Hey, that scholarship thing you're doing," you know? So she's familiar with MicroWorks.
1:29 Speaker 01 Right.
1:30 Mike Rowe? And I said, "Yeah," she goes, "It's pretty great. How come you don't have anything for cosmetologist?"
1:33 Speaker 01 Don't?
1:35 Mike Rowe? And honestly, I had no answer. I was just like, "I have no good answer." So I said, "Ah, you know, let me think about it." And of course, the real reason was I was very focused on the construction trades at the time.
1:46 Speaker 01 The roads, the water, the electricity, yeah.
1:49 Mike Rowe? Yes, our infrastructure. And it didn't occur to me that maybe our country was suffering from a lack of good haircuts, you know? But when you start to think about the number of people who work in this industry, who make a living cutting hair, I was like, "Ah!" We should maybe do it.
2:03 Speaker 01 It's certainly a skill.
2:04 Mike Rowe? Well, it is a skill.
2:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:06 Mike Rowe? Well, flashing forward now, this year, we got so many applications for cosmetology schools.
2:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:14 Mike Rowe? That we had to really think seriously about the degree to which we push it because the whole campaign could be overrun with cosmetology.
2:22 Speaker 01 I think it was the fourth, we just went over these numbers, right? It was like the fourth largest cohort of applications.
2:29 Mike Rowe? Right.
2:29 Speaker 01 Or recipients.
2:30 Mike Rowe? Right, and so that's great. I've got no complaint with all of it. It was just, wow, man, I was wrong to not include that from the very beginning because you're talking about really hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people who make a living with this skill. Anyway, I got a call, I don't know, eight months ago, a year ago maybe, from some guy called Win Claybaugh, who wants to book me at some gala for John Paul Mitchell Cosmetology School attendees.
3:01 Speaker 01 Right.
3:01 Mike Rowe? Right? And they're not raising money for their schools. They raise money for charity, but the students in the schools are a big, big part of this whole thing and, you know, Win is sort of the guy who built this educational empire with John Paul DeJoria. Anyway, there's a conflict, I can't do it, I politely pass, and apparently this guy starts to stalk me.
3:24 Speaker 01 Sure, it happens, yeah.
3:25 Mike Rowe? And I wind up sending a video that they can play at their thing, along with my apologies for, you know, not being able to show up.
3:34 Speaker 01 Right.
3:35 Mike Rowe? Long story short, I just had lunch with him. He lives down south of here.
3:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:39 Mike Rowe? And, you know, we connected and he was very grateful for the video. And I was interested in his industry. And I said, look, next time I'm in town, just, you know, come up, we'll have a bite. Lunch was so good, I was like, look, man, would you come back to my office and just be on an episode of The Way I Heard It?
3:57 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
3:58 Mike Rowe? He said, yeah, I'd be honored. So the conversation you're about to hear wasn't really planned, too much, but I'm going to tell you, it's among the best conversations I've had.
4:09 Speaker 01 It's a good one, it's a real good one.
4:10 Mike Rowe? It's staggering. The guy overcame addiction, he is devoted to his mother, he's built a multi-billion-dollar brand. He's a big deal.
4:23 Speaker 01 Yes.
4:24 Mike Rowe? And, you know.
4:25 Speaker 01 And he couldn't be sweeter.
4:27 Mike Rowe? Just.
4:27 Speaker 01 He's the nicest guy.
4:28 Mike Rowe? Yeah. Bald as can be.
4:30 Speaker 01 Very bald, yeah. I did notice that. For a guy who deals with hair.
4:34 Mike Rowe? Exactly.
4:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:35 Mike Rowe? So I think you're going to enjoy every single minute of this conversation. I know that I did. He gave me a copy of a book he wrote 20 years ago. It's called Be Nice or Else. I can't wait to dive into it because it perfectly epitomizes the worldview of, I'm just going to say it, the one and only, Win Claybaugh, whose acquaintance you will make, right after this.
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6:29 Mike Rowe? This exact scenario is why I wanted to do this podcast in the beginning. I mean, we had, you know, a lot of people come in here. Every now and then you find yourself out in the world and you just have an unexpected lunch with an unexpected guy who turned out to be more interesting than I thought he was gonna be. And then you say, hey, you wanna come by and sit down and do the podcast? And he says, yes. And now here we sit, right on the poise of being unforgettable and fascinating.
6:54 Speaker 02 Wow.
6:55 Mike Rowe? No pressure.
6:57 Speaker 02 Lots of pressure, you kidding me? And you paid for lunch. That means I have to deliver even more.
7:03 Mike Rowe? You know what's funny? I was seriously thinking, all right, the first words out of my mouth are gonna be, hey, thank you for lunch, you didn't have to do that, but obviously you didn't.
7:14 Speaker 02 That's because you drank so much I couldn't afford the bill.
7:18 Mike Rowe? Technically, I mean, I don't even know where to begin with you, man. If ChatGPT is to believe at all, you're a chronic overachiever. You, I mean, you're just out there, everywhere, talking about your chosen trade. And your chosen trade appears to be cosmetology. Or at least, is that fair? Or are you cosmetology adjacent in your current capacity?
7:43 Speaker 02 Well, anything within the professional beauty industry. So, which is cosmetology, which hairdressers, but it's skincare, it's barbers, it's nail technicians, it's massage therapists, it's all of the above.
7:55 Mike Rowe? That's all under your umbrella?
7:56 Speaker 02 That's all under my umbrella. In our Palmetto schools, most of our schools have two, three, four, five courses. So, in different states, some states have different licensing between being a hairdresser and a barber and a skincare therapist and a nail technician. And so, yeah, we offer all kinds of different courses to help people get through that career path and into an incredible, incredible industry. And it really is, and I'm not a hairdresser. So, I'm the biggest fan and I'm, I never even went down that path myself.
8:28 Mike Rowe? I think we have a fair amount of things in common. I honestly don't know how much you know about me, but through odd circumstances, I have become one of the people at the grown-up table around the whole skilled trades initiative in this country. I, myself, was not blessed with an inherent ability to do many of the things that the people my foundation assists are actually quite good at. I feel like you just confessed something similar.
8:54 Speaker 02 That I'm not the smartest person in my company. Yeah, I did. I'm not the prettiest. I'm not the most talented and the good news is I don't have to be. Any of those things.
9:04 Mike Rowe? Who has to be?
9:06 Speaker 02 I hire the right team. I'm very, very clear about who needs to be a part. I know what I'm good at. I know what I'm not good at. And what I'm really good at is helping people be very, very loyal to a company, to a cause, to an organization that's healthy, that's integral. And I believe that all of those things, it doesn't matter what it is that you're selling, what product or service you're selling. My gosh, if you come from that type of a culture, you're going to attract the best of the best.
9:33 Mike Rowe? So you've been with John Paul Mitchell. He's your partner, right?
9:39 Speaker 02 John Paul DeJury is my partner. Yeah. And he's one of the co-founders of the Paul Mitchell Hair Care product.
9:44 Mike Rowe? Well, who's Mitchell?
9:45 Speaker 02 Well, there were, there were two men. So it was John Paul DeJury and he was the sales guy. And then there was a man named Paul Mitchell, who was a hairdresser. He passed away in 1989 of pancreatic cancer. And so.
9:58 Mike Rowe? And then there's this guy, Win Claybaugh, whose name isn't incorporated into.
10:01 Speaker 02 Not at all. I'm, I'm waiting.
10:03 Mike Rowe? You're just, see, that's what makes you interesting, man. You're that behind the scenes guy.
10:08 Speaker 02 With no hair.
10:09 Mike Rowe? You are hairless.
10:10 Speaker 02 I'm hairless.
10:10 Mike Rowe? Well, I don't know that. I mean, there's no hair that I can see. Chuck, to be clear.
10:15 Speaker 01 I think the word is bald.
10:17 Speaker 02 Bald, okay, I'm bald.
10:18 Speaker 01 We don't know if he's hairless.
10:19 Mike Rowe? What a difference, man. What an important.
10:21 Speaker 02 Thank God you're Chuck.
10:24 Mike Rowe? I mean, he's, right now, I guarantee he's making a note. He's like, make him show you his back. It's probably covered with a thick pelt.
10:31 Speaker 02 Oh, gosh. No, it's not. It's not.
10:34 Mike Rowe? Do you guys do waxing?
10:36 Speaker 02 We do that. That's part of the, the training. If you're, especially in, in the skin department.
10:40 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
10:41 Speaker 02 Pursuing that career, waxing is a big part of that.
10:43 Mike Rowe? When did that happen in our society? When did it occur to us that getting hair removed and using wax to do it might be wise?
10:50 Speaker 02 I have no idea. Can you check ChatGPT? Let's, I have no idea when that came up.
10:55 Mike Rowe? I mean, if Chuck's remotely curious, he will. I'm just asking because, you know, I was in, um, where was I? I was in Munich. No, I was in Switzerland. I was in Zurich and I needed a haircut.
11:07 Speaker 02 I was gonna say you needed your back waxed and you're telling me a Zurich story about.
11:11 Mike Rowe? It's worse.
11:12 Speaker 02 That's not gonna be a good story.
11:13 Mike Rowe? No, it's worse. Full disclosure, Win offered to come here to the office to have my haircut. He was gonna bring an actual barber or barberist or stylist with him to thank me, I guess, for including your industry in our work ethic scholarship program.
11:29 Speaker 02 You're right.
11:30 Mike Rowe? And I love free stuff. I love it. I don't really need it. I'm blessed. I can afford most all the things I need, but I just love, I just love when people give me things for free. It's just an old, you know, yes.
11:43 Speaker 01 It occurred originally in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia 3000 to 2000 BCE.
11:50 Speaker 02 To start removing hair.
11:51 Speaker 01 Yes, using wax.
11:53 Speaker 02 Okay, got it.
11:53 Speaker 01 Yep.
11:54 Mike Rowe? Fascinating. You know, the Egyptians really were working through a lot of, a lot of things.
11:58 Speaker 01 They were ahead of their time, really, when you think about it.
12:01 Mike Rowe? Well, anyway, I'm in Zurich and it's suddenly, I have a very important meeting with some very important people and I need a haircut. So I go into something, I think it was called Finest Barbers in Europe. And while I'm there, I see a guy finishing his cut and he lays down and the barber goes over and takes a lid off of, looked like a crock pot, full of bubbling tar. And he took a couple of Q-tips and loaded them up and shoved them up the guy's nose and waited and then pulled them out and my God.
12:38 Speaker 02 You've had that done, right?
12:39 Mike Rowe? Well, I did it as soon as I saw. I didn't want to do it, but I just felt like I'd just finished my haircut too. And I'm like, well, I'm in Zurich and I don't want to be rude. And I'm all about experiencing things. Taylor was with me. He filmed it, actually. But I'll tell you, man, it makes you think very different about your own. Just, just your, when it, when a man from Zurich who speaks five languages hands you the Q-tip that is now looks like a porcupine, filled with the hair in your nose you didn't even know you had, it just makes you wonder what else is going on, on various parts of your body that you can't really monitor.
13:14 Speaker 02 Right, it's a good thing we have those people, right?
13:17 Mike Rowe? I guess.
13:18 Speaker 02 You promote the trades, we need people who have talent and skill and pay attention to that stuff.
13:23 Mike Rowe? Well, I'll tell you this, ma'am, walking through, it was winter when we were over there, and I had never, it's like one of those things you don't know until you correct it, but the amount of cold European air that was flying through my nose, unencumbered by any follicular blockage, was shocking, and I must admit, if I could do, I should probably do this again, I should make it a thing, but I haven't had my nose waxed since.
13:48 Speaker 02 Okay, well, that's when I come next time, I'll bring somebody who will do your, not just your nose, we're gonna do your ears too, okay, so.
13:55 Mike Rowe? You say that like you've looked at my ears and determined some work could be done.
13:59 Speaker 02 I am being really kind and have good manners today.
14:03 Mike Rowe? You don't have to be.
14:04 Speaker 02 And by the way, you said you like free stuff, so people need to know, I came with gift baskets for you today, I brought you a lot of free Paul Mitchell products, so.
14:13 Mike Rowe? I still don't know exactly what's in them, but I will cherish them.
14:16 Speaker 02 It's good stuff, really good stuff, the best of the best.
14:19 Mike Rowe? I mean, between that and a lunch, honestly, I was hoping for the lunch, but, but I'll take some Paul Mitchell swag. So 25 years, you and John Paul DeJoria have been partners.
14:34 Speaker 02 Yes.
14:35 Mike Rowe? Did this whole partnership evolve around the notion of education and schools, or was there, like, what was the business a quarter century ago?
14:43 Speaker 02 So I started my own salon 40 years ago, and soon after starting my salon, I realized...
14:51 Speaker 02 The people that I was interviewing who were graduating from local cosmetology schools to come and work in my salons after spending a year in school way back then were not at all ready to work and compete in the professional beauty industry and I thought the best way to train them would be to train them myself. And so I opened up my first school and then opened up a second school and what happened was I fell in love with education. To tell you the truth, I sold my salons and had I, here I am admitting this, had I not gotten into the school business, meaning into education, I don't think I would still be in the professional beauty industry. So what got me to fall in love with hairdressers, with this industry, was students, education. I love, love, love students.
15:32 Mike Rowe? Why? Why do you give it up?
15:34 Speaker 02 You know, they have beginner's luck, which basically means that they don't know it won't work. I mean, I can walk into my school with the stupidest idea and they're like, "Yeah, let's do it." And I just love that energy. I love that attitude.
15:45 Mike Rowe? Like what? Like what's a dumb idea that you wound up incorporating?
15:48 Speaker 02 Anything to do, okay, philanthropy, you know, fundraising. "Hey, you know, there's a soup kitchen down the street. I think we can make a difference, you know. Why don't we have a bake cell? Why don't we do a car wash and raise some money?" And, you know, you say that to professionals who are receiving a paycheck, they're like, "I ain't gonna do that."
16:05 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
16:06 Speaker 02 Students are like, "We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it." And I just love that energy. I love that energy every single day.
16:11 Mike Rowe? Where are you from and what do your folks do? And how much of this crazy bottled up passion do you figure came from, came from whatever the answer to that is?
16:21 Speaker 02 Born and raised in Southern California. Went to high school in Southern California, but while I was in high school, a senior, my parents moved to Utah and I talked them into letting me stay back. And so as senior year in high school, not that I really attended, but I was enrolled and, uh, because I barely, and I mean barely, graduated from high school. Not one day of college and barely graduated from high school. But they let me stay behind and I had an apartment and a job and a car and, but yeah, I got that work ethic from my parents. You know, eight kids in the family and so
16:54 Mike Rowe? Where were you?
16:55 Speaker 02 Number six. And so we were raised needing to know how to do everything from To cleaning, to our own laundry, to gardening.
17:02 Mike Rowe? Did your guys have any money? What'd your man do?
17:04 Speaker 02 You know, my, my father was an engineer, worked for Northrop Aircraft. And so, you know, we were okay, but eight kids is a lot of kids. And, uh, and I absolutely got that work ethic. You know, I was kind of laughing earlier when you said something along the lines of that I, um, I don't know, that I hustle, or that I, you said something that I'm an overachiever, something like that. Yeah, I was that. So I, you know, I was like the youngest.
17:25 Mike Rowe? And a stalker, just to.
17:26 Speaker 02 Oh, we're gonna get to that story. Cause you, I didn't, I didn't find you because you're famous with dirty jobs. I found you because, uh, because of your notoriety with the trades. I mean, that's what attracted me to you. But yeah, I was that overachiever. So I was like the youngest Eagle Scout in, in that district, you know? Oh yeah, at 13, 14.
17:45 Mike Rowe? What's the most important scout law?
17:47 Speaker 02 Oh gosh, no.
17:49 Mike Rowe? Trustworthy, loyal.
17:50 Speaker 02 Trustworthy, exactly. All of those things. And I'm all those things.
17:53 Mike Rowe? Yeah, but you must choose. Obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave.
17:56 Speaker 02 You have to choose one? They didn't tell me that.
17:58 Mike Rowe? Yeah, well, that's, guess what? You're at a certain point in your life now.
18:01 Speaker 02 Okay, you know what? Trustworthy. Trustworthy. My word is my word, so. And I think that's important. And I'm kind. I wrote a book, it's right in front of you. It's right in front of me. Called Be Nice or Else. So be kind or else.
18:11 Mike Rowe? It's a, it's a fascinating title. It really is, uh, you, you found a way to threaten somebody with an exclamation point and, and some cheery font.
18:19 Speaker 02 Well, you know what's so funny is it, it was called Be Nice and Larry King offered to write the foreword for the book. And he's like, but I want you to call it Be Nice. I couldn't, I couldn't sell that. It's gotta be Be Nice or Else. That's, that's my Larry King impersonation.
18:34 Mike Rowe? Not bad.
18:35 Speaker 02 So he's the one who added the or else part of it. And, uh, you know, but the or else is not a threat. It's like be nice or be miserable. Be nice or be a horrible parent.
18:43 Mike Rowe? Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training? Like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive, pre-apprenticeship program
19:25 Mike Rowe? that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately. I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade.
20:11 Mike Rowe? If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. Well, it's basically consequences.
20:31 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
20:32 Mike Rowe? You know, it's not you threatening to come by with a club and beat some sense into them.
20:36 Speaker 02 Although he did say in his foreword, "Do this or I'll kill you." And people are like, "He did it. Read the foreword." People are, "Are you gonna edit that?" I'm like, "No, I'm not gonna edit that. Larry wrote that. That's a good thing."
20:47 Mike Rowe? How did you meet Larry King?
20:49 Speaker 02 You know, his wife, which I think was wife number seven.
20:52 Mike Rowe? His wife. That's funny.
20:53 Speaker 02 I know, I know. I grew up with her. She was a good friend of mine. And then what happened was, Modern Salon, I started my own podcast 30 years ago, so the term "podcast" didn't even exist. And so my interviews went out once a month on a cassette tape. You might have to explain to people what that even is, but...
21:10 Mike Rowe? Well, I think instead I'll just explain to people that what you've been doing is this, a kind of love letter to philanthropy. The podcast is called Masters. And you had some pretty famous people on, but you really don't get into anything other than why they give a damn and what they do with their fortunes, in many cases, or what they were doing before they had. A fortune.
21:33 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
21:34 Mike Rowe? And that's, you know, shame on me for not knowing about it. But once I realized you were a stalker who had means and actually did find me. I did poke around and I did listen to you. Uh, it was Vidal Sassoon.
21:47 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
21:47 Mike Rowe? Your very first one.
21:48 Speaker 02 Very first one.
21:49 Mike Rowe? And you still have that out, like people can go listen to that.
21:52 Speaker 02 Oh, absolutely. I re-released him. So I have a pretty incredible library going back 30 years. And a lot of these people aren't even alive today, including Vidal Sassoon. So to be able to have Betty White and, um, a few others that.
22:05 Mike Rowe? And I, and I guess Larry King.
22:07 Speaker 02 Larry King and Fran Drescher and Marie Osmond and, but as you and I were talking at lunch, my purpose in interviewing these major celebrities was not about their entertainment career. It was about their philanthropy work. It was Children's Miracle Network Hospitals is that baby of Marie Osmond. And I, that's what I want to know about. Why would you start that?
22:27 Mike Rowe? You, I mean, I'm just going to say this out loud Chuck, so you can make a note, but he's going to hook us up. I want to talk to Marie.
22:33 Speaker 01 Oh, okay.
22:34 Mike Rowe? I met Marie in 1991 when she came on the QVC cable shopping channel. She had a line of dolls.
22:42 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
22:42 Mike Rowe? And you know my whole history with dolls, Chuck.
22:45 Speaker 01 Unfortunately, I do.
22:46 Mike Rowe? Porcelain, inflatable and otherwise.
22:48 Speaker 02 Oh my.
22:49 Mike Rowe? But, but here's the thing about Marie. She is given or raised for Children's Miracle Network. Guess how much money would you think she's raised? And remember she's Marie Osmond, you know, she gets around.
23:02 Speaker 01 Some money, I'm sure. A couple hundred million, maybe?
23:05 Mike Rowe? More.
23:06 Speaker 01 Uh, a billion.
23:09 Mike Rowe? Tell them what.
23:09 Speaker 02 Nine billion.
23:11 Speaker 01 Nine billion? Is that, is that the craziest freaking thing?
23:14 Speaker 02 They have raised nine billion dollars, which supports 170 hospitals and 10 million children a year go into a Children's Miracle, Miracle Network Hospital.
23:24 Mike Rowe? So we all know about St. Jude, which is like what, are they even in that network? Is that one of, or that's?
23:30 Speaker 02 They're not, they're not in the same network, but St. Jude's is one hospital and they do incredible work. But this. Amazing mission that Maria's been on for years and that's what, of course, I'm drawn to somebody's music and their talent and their shows and their movies and everything. But actually, my mom said that how she got me to eat breakfast when I was a little kid was to tell me that that's what Walt Disney ate for breakfast. So I was always attracted to celebrities and famous people who did good things with their fame and with their money. Because there's a lot of famous people, let's talk about it, that you don't care what they have to say.
24:05 Mike Rowe? Very true. But I'm not sure how you're going to make the link between Walt Disney's philanthropy and bacon and eggs or grits or whatever. Like, where's the breakfast connection to?
24:15 Speaker 02 To do what my heroes were doing. Yeah. But my heroes were, again, celebrities who were doing good things with their money and with their celebrity and their fame. So that was my draw to Larry King with the Larry King Cartier Foundation. My draw to Magic Johnson and the incredible work that he does with his foundation. Fran Drescher and Cancer Schmancer and Betty White with Morris Animal Foundation. You know, my gosh, everything to do with animals. So, working with Betty White was just, you know, best day of my life. I think I was telling you at lunch, you know, on the video we shot together, she called me a slut and that was the best day of my life.
24:52 Mike Rowe? You've got to feel good about that.
24:54 Speaker 02 Oh, my gosh.
24:55 Mike Rowe? Coming from maybe the most famous slut of the 70s.
24:59 Speaker 02 Exactly.
25:00 Mike Rowe? Sue Ann Nivens. Passing that on to you.
25:03 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
25:04 Mike Rowe? You know, somebody said something so nice about my mom. Actually, I think it was me. No, but she, my mom wrote every day for 60 years before she got a bestseller and now she's got like four of them. She's 87.
25:18 Speaker 02 Wow.
25:19 Mike Rowe? And she's kind of occupied this weird role of America's grandmother, I've heard, but it's really like Irma Bombeck meets Betty White.
25:30 Speaker 02 Okay, wow.
25:31 Mike Rowe? And so, I mean, tell me about, I don't even know where to go with you, it's just so schizophrenic. Betty's so interesting to me, but still with Larry, like, what don't people know about that guy that you would like them to remember?
25:45 Speaker 02 Think about who this man was and who he sat across from. Who he got to interview. And actually, so how I got connected was a Modern Salon Magazine, an industry magazine, called me the Larry King of the beauty industry. And Larry read that and called me up and said, "You need to come to my house so I can teach you how to be a Larry King." Which was wonderful.
26:07 Mike Rowe? Just out of the blue, he calls you. Because he sees you referred to.
26:12 Speaker 02 As Larry King.
26:13 Mike Rowe? Of.
26:14 Speaker 02 The beauty industry.
26:15 Mike Rowe? That is so interesting. Like, why would he do that?
26:19 Speaker 02 To make sure that I was representing him well, I guess. I don't know. But I, so I did go and, to tell you the truth, we actually sat in his bedroom. And that's where he sat down and tutored me and gave me some pointers on how to interview people. And it was, it was incredible.
26:33 Mike Rowe? Like what? What was the best bit of advice he gave you?
26:35 Speaker 02 Oh, he says, "I told you, like, I have all these notes sitting in front of me that I over-prepare." Whether I'm interviewing somebody, I over-prepare and and now you're interviewing me. And what he said.
26:48 Mike Rowe? I'm not over-prepared, win.
26:50 Speaker 02 Oh, well, you got a talent and a skill here that I hope to have.
26:55 Mike Rowe? I have my approach, you have yours.
26:57 Speaker 02 Well, what Larry says was, "Never assume that you got the final answer." So he said, "Just show up with one question." And that one question can lead you a second and a third and a fourth and go down all kinds of different paths and journeys based on that one question that you asked. So just keep on, whereas probably when I interviewed Vidal Sassoon, I probably asked the first question that I had scripted and he answered it and probably wanted to expand it. I said, "No, we have to go on to the second question. I don't know, but..."
27:24 Mike Rowe? Look, that's the old, you know, the biggest enemy of a good plan is a, is a perfect plan. And, look, if you want to conduct an interview, sure, there are a couple of different ways to do it. If you want to have a conversation, there's only one.
27:38 Speaker 02 Right.
27:38 Mike Rowe? Two ears, one mouth. You know, and my Larry King story, I did a show a couple of times. The first time I was on, he was, I mean, it was odd, you know, Dirty Jobs had just been a hit. And we were just kind of feeling each other out. We got through the first segment. And during the commercial, he's like, he's like looking at notes and stuff and talking to people in the control room. And he looks at me and says, "You like baseball?" And I said, "Yeah, man, I like baseball."
28:08 Mike Rowe? Dodgers. I said, no, I'm an Orioles guy. He goes, Mike Quayle, Boog Powell, Mark Blanger, Bobby Gritch, Jim Palmer, Dave McNally, Merv Retman, Paul Blair, Andy Etchabarron. What do you mean you're a fan? To what degree? And I'm like, oh, well, I know all these cats and, you know, my grandmother was the biggest Orioles fan ever. Larry and I start having a completely unscripted conversation during a commercial break.
28:35 Speaker 02 Okay.
28:35 Mike Rowe? But with so much enthusiasm that he just completely misses his cue.
28:42 Speaker 02 Okay.
28:42 Mike Rowe? To come back. So now we're back live.
28:45 Speaker 02 And you're still talking about it.
28:46 Mike Rowe? He's going on and on about Dave McNally hitting a grand slam homerun in 1969. He was a pitcher for crying out loud. Mike, you know how weird that is for a pitcher to hit a homerun? Much less a grand slam. And I'm like, Larry, man, we're back on the air. He goes, oh, welcome back. We're talking about baseball with Mike Rowe. Dirty Jobs gone.
29:05 Speaker 02 Right.
29:05 Mike Rowe? He's gone. But I learned a lot from him just from watching. And he did the nicest thing for me. When he decided to retire, he told his boss, if he had a brain in his head,
29:23 Mike Rowe? the job would be mine.
29:25 Speaker 02 Get Mike. Wow.
29:26 Mike Rowe? Didn't work out, obviously. They didn't even ask. But Larry King gave me an incredible.
29:31 Speaker 02 Dang, that's pretty incredible.
29:33 Mike Rowe? Ridiculous. Ridiculous. And I only saw him once again after that. He interviewed me in his, I guess, in his home, where he was doing his final episodes. But talk about a guy who was doing what he was supposed to be doing. You know? Are you doing what you're supposed to be doing?
29:53 Speaker 02 Yeah, I believe that I am. That's how I feel every day. I'm 66. I wake out of, jump out of bed at 4 a.m. every day with. Incredible purpose. I wake up two minutes before the alarm goes off. Yeah, so I feel like I am. Because I landed in an industry where I have that opportunity to truly make a difference. You know, hairdressers rule this planet and I have a thousands reasons of why I believe that that's true.
30:20 Mike Rowe? Well, let's go ahead and start somewhere near the top of the list. I doubt we'll get to a thousand, but that's a bold claim. Hairdressers rule the planet. How so?
30:29 Speaker 02 Well, as I said, I'm not a hairdresser. I've never been a hairdresser. Actually, I was the youngest recipient of the Lifetime Achievement Award from the North American Hairdressing Association, so go figure. You know, again, that overachiever again, right? Not even a hairdresser. But, okay, we'll go back to Betty White. You know, so here I'm working with all these Palmetto schools. We want to make a difference. We're raising millions of dollars and we wanted something that benefited animals. You know, so we were trying to check every box and I don't mean it that coldly. You know, check the box of something for veterans and first responders, something for in the fight against sex trafficking, something in the, along with children's hospitals.
31:11 Speaker 02 Well, we hadn't done anything with animal related, animal health or rescue. And somebody brought up, you know, well, you know, Betty White is the president of this organization called Morris Animal Foundation. Go get Betty White. And so that was the conversation, you know, who can get to Betty White, you know? Well, I'll call her manager. I'll call her agent. I'll call her. And I'm like, I'll call her frickin' hairdresser, right?
31:36 Speaker 02 They all came up empty. I had the hairdresser on the phone because again, I know everybody in the professional beauty industry and literally within a week, I had Betty White on the phone and she said, yeah, absolutely. And we then shot a video together and did several events together over a period of number of years. You know, donated over a million dollars to that cause and that organization through the fundraising that the Palmetto schools had done. And exactly at the same time, same thing with Dolly Parton. Somebody said, you know, we love Imagination Library, the fact that she's putting books into the hands of of these marginalized. Kids, kids who are underserved, you know, who can get to Dolly Parton, win, call her hairdresser, okay, same thing.
32:19 Mike Rowe? Now, David, how did you know who her hairdresser was?
32:22 Speaker 02 Oh, the beauty industry is very, very small when it comes to that. Not only that, the beauty industry is very, very generous. I have friends that work in other industries who say that the higher up they go, the more disillusioned they are by what they find at the top, that people at the top maybe aren't generous and they don't want to share their trade secrets and they don't want to mentor that next generation, "Don't steal my position." In the professional beauty industry is the exact opposite. You know, the people who are at the top, whether it's a Vidal Sassoon or a Jean Paul DeJoury or some famous hairdresser, and I know most of them, yeah. You call them and say, "Hey, I have a brand new student who's struggling in school. Would you please get on the phone? I'll do it right now." And they'll get on the phone and they'll be on the phone for hours.
33:06 Speaker 02 And that's, that's not just pie in the sky, that's a legitimate thing that happens on a regular basis, which is why I fell in love with the beauty industry that many years ago and am still its biggest fan.
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34:06 Mike Rowe? hotspot, for just $29.95 a month for life. Not your phone's life, your life. No contracts, no commitments, just a very rare opportunity to lock into a ridiculously low rate for unlimited talk, text and data for the rest of your life. It's the unlimited data plan from Pure Talk and it will not be around for long. $29.95 a month for as long as you live. Taxes and fees not included. Some restrictions do apply. See puretalk.com for details. Offer ends 11/15/26. So chop chop.
34:50 Mike Rowe? How many people are providing for their families today as the result of mastering this skill?
34:59 Speaker 02 I'm glad that you ask that because that's what people, that's what I want people to know, that usually the people who are attracted to the professional beauty industry, not always, but the majority of them, majority are women. A lot of them could be the breadwinners for their family, whether it is they're a single mom. So for them to be able to have that flexibility, first of all, they don't have the opportunity to maybe invest in a four-year university and go into that debt and have that educational opportunity or educational experience. So for them to be able to have the experience within our industry and within a year or less, they're through school and then, once they graduate, they say, "Have scissors, will travel."
35:44 Mike Rowe? Sure.
35:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, so you don't work anywhere. But for them to have the flexibility to be able to say, "Well, I'm going to work from nine to three. I need to be home at three o'clock for my kids. I need to have the flexibility with that." Huge, big advantage for the professional beauty industry. And so, yeah, we attract that.
36:01 Mike Rowe? Have scissors, will travel. You know where I came from?
36:03 Speaker 02 No.
36:04 Mike Rowe? Are you old enough to remember Paladin?
36:05 Speaker 02 No.
36:06 Mike Rowe? Yeah, yeah, well, maybe not.
36:08 Speaker 02 Wait, I'm older than you, aren't I?
36:09 Mike Rowe? Yeah, a couple of years.
36:11 Speaker 02 Boy, he said that pretty freely, didn't he? Yeah, you are older than me.
36:15 Mike Rowe? Paladin was a TV show on in the, I guess it was the 60s. But it was called Have Gun, Will Travel.
36:27 Speaker 02 Okay.
36:28 Mike Rowe? So some clever person in your industry.
36:31 Speaker 02 With some scissors on it.
36:32 Mike Rowe? Basically plagiarized an old hit show.
36:35 Speaker 02 Well, I was, I was recently at a, a big hair show, a big convention. And I was there as a speaker.
36:40 Mike Rowe? You mean, you mean a, a show for people with big hair? Or a large hair show?
36:45 Speaker 02 I guess to clarify, large hair show. So lots and lots of hairdressers attending this educational event. And I was a speaker. So before I went on stage, they were like, hey, we, we want to introduce you to somebody. So they take me down to the hall, they take me into this classroom. It was a hands-on classroom for hair cutting. So you walk in and there's a hundred mannequin heads all set up, you know, ready to be used for this class. Class hadn't started yet. They take me to the very front of the class, introduce me to this hairdresser. She's 85 years old, been doing hair since she was 14 years old. Right? And, but first of all, there she is, still at the front of the class, still engaged. I mean, I know some 18-year-olds who already know it all.
37:22 Mike Rowe? Sure.
37:23 Speaker 02 So here's this 85-year-old woman, like still engaged and in love with the professional beauty industry. And I had this conversation. I mean, not only did she raise all of her kids, you know, she had said she had several grandchildren who are now hairdressers and, and now they're raising their families. They're the breadwinners and they love their careers and have the financial resources to love life and to be entrepreneurs, to, to go out on their own. It was just this phenomenal story that she had, because this many years as a hairdresser, built this empire with her family, all based on hairdressing.
37:57 Mike Rowe? How much of what you do is focused on debunking, challenging stereotypes, or stigmas, or myths, or misperceptions around the industry? And as you think about your answer, I'm, I'm asking because I know that a lot of vocational skills have been used as cautionary tales.
38:24 Speaker 02 Right.
38:24 Mike Rowe? Like, go here, borrow this, do that, or else you're going to wind up turning a wrench, or welding, or cutting somebody's hair.
38:32 Speaker 02 Right.
38:32 Mike Rowe? Is that a thing in your world?
38:34 Speaker 02 It is a thing. It's, I think it's always been a thing, but the good news is that's turning around. You know, hairdressers are put on a, on a pedestal. They, they can become celebrities in their own right. And so, you know, that, that is good news, that has happened. But I think we will always, any, anybody in the trade. is gonna have that stigma that we have to battle, but okay.
38:59 Mike Rowe? So what, how do you battle it? Like, what are the facts on your side? Like, if we talk about what a person can, like, is it a money thing? Is it a flexibility thing? Like, what does the industry most offer? That you think is most.
39:16 Speaker 02 You know, you could probably answer this better than I can, but you know, I think it was, you're raised to believe you're gonna go to college. That's the golden ticket. You're going to go to college and that's what your parents wish for you. You know, I always had this philosophy about why I love students coming to cosmetology, coming to one of my schools. You know, again, if you choose a four-year college, mom and dad, hey, mom, I'm going to college. Good for you, you know? By the way, mom and dad, I'm gonna party for the first three years. I'm gonna blow through your money. I'm gonna change my mind about 20 times and change my degree. And mom and dad are still like, good for you, good for you. You made the right choice. Mom and dad, I want to be a hairdresser. That's not necessarily good news for mom and dad.
39:58 Speaker 02 And so oftentimes when students sign up for my school, and again, it's not always, but this can be the case on occasion, that mom and dad are not supportive of that. And so these students that sign up for my school, they have a lot to overcome. They have a lot of naysayers, including sometimes mom and dad and friends and family who are trying to talk them out of their fantasy. Not because they're trying to, they think that they're giving good advice, you know, choose differently. So not only do they have to prove a bunch of people wrong, that yes, I did make the right decision to do this, but they have to do it. They don't have four years to prove it. They gotta do it in a year or less.
40:40 Speaker 02 And so, and that also means that maybe they're not there with mom and dad's financial support. So we already know they're not there with mom and dad's vote of confidence and moral support. Sometimes it's without mom and dad's financial support as well. So when I have a student in my school, man, they're, they are focused. They are serious. They are engaged. And I think you read any book on how to be successful, every book's gonna teach you, follow your heart. You show me one hairdresser, one barber, that was not following their heart. They chose this because they have a passion for this. And some of them, since they were little kids, this is what they want to do. You know, after COVID, you know how many second and third career people signed up for our schools?
41:21 Mike Rowe? That was my next question, actually.
41:22 Speaker 02 Well, because they, that mass exodus that everybody talked about, you know, I hated that job. There's no way. You know, I see that COVID was like God sent everybody to their room. You know, go to your room, take a time out. And when people came out of that time out, they're like, I'm not going back to that career. I hated that job. I hated my life. You know, in the beauty industry, I don't, I don't know too many hairdressers that don't love their life. Monday through Friday. They say hairdressers go to work every single day with the intention of having fun. I don't know too many people who, who have that belief system, who have that sentiment. And so-
41:56 Mike Rowe? Do you remember the movie Shampoo?
41:57 Speaker 02 Of course. Love that. Yeah.
41:59 Mike Rowe? See, so you are old enough to remember Paladin.
42:01 Speaker 02 A little bit.
42:02 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
42:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:03 Mike Rowe? No, that, you know, I watched that a few years ago, actually.
42:08 Speaker 02 Shampoo?
42:09 Mike Rowe? Yeah, it was in the middle of the night, flicking around, watching that thing. And one of the questions that I asked myself at the time was, it's so interesting, the bond that forms between a hairdresser and the customer. And how quickly it deepens, and how panicky a customer gets when their hairdresser is going to be away for two weeks, and there's an event coming up. You know, it's easy to poke a little bit of fun at that, because, look, full disclosure, I'm the guy who bought the Flowbee in 1988.
42:44 Speaker 02 Please tell me you didn't.
42:45 Mike Rowe? Look, dude, you're bald. I'm not going to take any crap from you. But I'm telling you, I literally bought the Flowbee because I am cheap. And when I realized the Flowbee wasn't really doing the job, I went back to my guy Frank, who flew a bomber in the Korean War, and he had a little barber shop where people actually sang, and there were nudies up on the wall. And I sat there for $4 and he cut my hair.
43:07 Speaker 02 Right.
43:07 Mike Rowe? So you're talking to a guy who never assigned much value.
43:11 Speaker 02 Okay.
43:13 Mike Rowe? I'm, full disclosure.
43:14 Speaker 02 Right.
43:14 Mike Rowe? But- Much later in my life, when I wrote that Facebook post about that woman who cut my hair in North Carolina, who gave me so much crap, she was so sassy, and she had three jobs, and that really did make me think differently about, you know, the importance of that trade. So we started offering those scholarships through our program, and I think, if I got the timeline right, that's roughly when you started stalking me.
43:43 Speaker 02 Pretty much, yeah. Pretty much, because, yeah, I love this industry and I want more heroes to back up the message that I've been delivering, that I've been sharing.
43:53 Mike Rowe? I love that.
43:54 Speaker 02 That hairdressers do incredible things on the planet. But to answer the question, why this incredible relationship between clients and their hairdresser? I mean, look at it this way, it's cradle to grave. You know, there's, well, there's a brand-new baby and it's the kids, you know, I mean, I've got a book with my first curl that my mom took me to a hairdresser and they, you know, snipped it off and it's still there, so I had proof that I had hair at one day, you know, and then it's the toddler's first haircut, and then it's the prom, and then it's the wedding, most important day of your life, who needs to be there? Your hairdresser. And then there are all kinds of different monumental
44:37 Speaker 02 events that happen, and then it's the funeral. You know, my brother, who became a hairdresser, who went to my school, you know, he was the one that did my mom's hair, you know, two years ago.
44:48 Mike Rowe? Yeah, oh, she passed two years ago?
44:50 Speaker 02 She passed two years ago at 96. Which, by the way, I love it that you, I love it that you interviewed your mom for your podcast. That one, that one really warmed my heart, so good for you. You're a good son.
45:02 Mike Rowe? I am a mama's boy, unapologetically.
45:05 Speaker 02 You and me both.
45:06 Mike Rowe? I, I...
45:07 Speaker 02 I will shout that from the rooftops.
45:09 Mike Rowe? I make no apologies for it, but I, I think it's terrific that you...
45:14 Speaker 02 She was 96.
45:15 Mike Rowe? Yeah, yeah. You know Danny DeVito? Worked in a salon.
45:19 Speaker 02 I knew he was a hairdresser. So was Fran Drescher. There's several that were hairdressers, yeah.
45:23 Mike Rowe? Yeah, and Danny actually wound up being hired in the local mortuary to take care of those clients.
45:33 Mike Rowe? I wonder, I mean, is there an element of like the bartender slash confessor? You know, I mean, like, do people seem to really confide in their hairdressers?
45:46 Speaker 02 There's absolutely that. In fact, I have a friend who's a psychiatrist, who says that he really got into the professional beauty industry, meaning he wanted to do research and come and do trainings and be connected because he had a client who was on his couch, whatever, and he was giving him advice, and he said, "I better ask my hairdresser about this advice." Meaning, he was gonna take his hairdresser's advice over his psychiatrist's advice. So he thought, you know, "I need to connect more with hairdressers to find why are they more trustworthy or trusted than I am."
46:22 Mike Rowe? Well, because you're inherently trusting them from the jump. And, look, we can assign whatever value we want to our appearance, but obviously, in this society, that assignation is significant. So, you're already trusting them with a part of your vanity, a part of your identity.
46:43 Speaker 02 Okay.
46:43 Mike Rowe? And as time goes on, the hair keeps growing, man.
46:46 Speaker 02 Right.
46:46 Mike Rowe? It's so interesting. It just keeps coming back.
46:50 Speaker 02 In your nose and your ears.
46:51 Mike Rowe? Everywhere, everywhere. And so now, suddenly, it's like, you know, a little trim is not enough. I need wax. Bring in the wax, man.
46:58 Speaker 02 There's another reason for that, though. So it's not just, yes, it's the trust and your vanity, as you just said, is in their hands, but they're touching you.
47:07 Mike Rowe? Yes.
47:08 Speaker 02 So, I mean, there's not too many professions where you touch your customers. I mean, doctors touch their customers, but you don't love it.
47:15 Mike Rowe? Different touch.
47:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, you don't love it when they touch you.
47:17 Mike Rowe? Bad touch.
47:18 Speaker 01 And also, isn't it, you know, sharp objects around your eyes and your face?
47:22 Speaker 02 There you go.
47:23 Speaker 01 Trust, trust.
47:23 Mike Rowe? Trust.
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48:25 Speaker 02 But when a hairdresser, or a skin therapist, or a nail technician, even with a nail technician, I mean, with a hairdresser, they're standing behind you and they're looking at you through the mirror. Yeah, they'll spin you around and they'll be face-to-face with you. But imagine a nail technician, you're sitting that close to them. They're holding your hand and you're inches away from their face, having this conversation. That's a pretty intimate relationship. So of course, there's a lot of trust building. And you better believe that's part of the training that they receive in Palm Beach schools.
48:56 Mike Rowe? Well, how do you do that? How do you, you know, you've got a room full of people. I'm assuming the preponderance are female?
49:04 Speaker 02 The majority, you know, we get a lot of, we have a lot of students who are male. You know, sometimes, especially in the barbering business, might attract more male than female. Not that we don't have female barbers who are going through our school. And I know some very, very famous female barbers who do incredibly well.
49:24 Mike Rowe? So what's actually the difference between a hairstylist and a barber?
49:27 Speaker 02 It's a different license, and it's also different services. So barbers don't necessarily do hair color. You know, barbers are doing, you know, shaves and other services that they provide that hairdressers are not providing. So there is some crossover in the service that they provide, but...
49:46 Mike Rowe? I'm interested too in the licensure and the certificate. I'm not really sure how I feel about it, to tell you the truth. I've seen some certifications that seem like they might be barriers. You know, certain like braiding operations I've read about in the South in particular. Right with women of color and you know, they can make a good living doing this and they're good at it, but the state of Georgia wants 20 grand or whatever they want.
50:15 Speaker 02 Right.
50:15 Mike Rowe? Right. So, I mean, your world, you're operating in states where certifications are required and you're training people and you can't do what you do without the training. So where do you, how do you think about where the line ought to be drawn between your job of training, a competent tradesperson in this vocation with entrepreneurship and the right to work and an opportunity in general?
50:39 Speaker 02 I think there's a safety and sanitation element that we need to consider. And so, you know, people who are not receiving legitimate training and that's not even considered nor required, I think that that can put the, the, the public at risk.
50:55 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
50:55 Speaker 02 If they're not trained to use proper tools and sanitation and all of that stuff. And so, but yeah, our industry has been known to carve out certain sectors, you know, so maybe it's for braiding where you don't really need a license for that. Of course, I'm not saying that you don't need it because I don't know. I know who knows, but I don't know.
51:13 Mike Rowe? Right.
51:13 Speaker 02 But, and it's different from state to state, but you know, should hairdressers receive that training and, and be regulated and, and have certification and, and required training in certain aspects of it? Absolutely.
51:27 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
51:27 Speaker 02 Absolutely.
51:28 Mike Rowe? Okay. How many, if you had to guess over 25 years, has John Paul Mitchell trained?
51:34 Speaker 02 Well, you know, gosh, it's in the hundreds of thousands. And yet, we enroll between 10 to 12,000 students a year between our Paul Mitchell schools.
51:43 Mike Rowe? Mm-hmm.
51:44 Speaker 02 And we're just one brand. There's, you know, other amazing brands out there. We're the largest in, in cosmetology and barbering education, but um, you know, but that's quite a few, but, but still, even though there were graduating that many, I, the last time I heard, you told me that facts don't matter and I could just make stuff up. So.
52:06 Mike Rowe? I did say that, but I didn't mean it, man.
52:08 Speaker 02 To not let the truth get in the way of making a good point here. No, I recently, so somebody could, you know. Checks over here, he'll say, what did he just say? That's not true. No, I heard that 89,000 salon position went unfilled last year.
52:24 Mike Rowe? Wow.
52:25 Speaker 02 And statistically, over the next 10 years, there's a 7% increase in opportunity, growth opportunity, job opportunity within the professional beauty industry, which is higher than a lot of professions.
52:38 Mike Rowe? That's amazing.
52:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:40 Mike Rowe? Well, I mean, look, people.
52:41 Speaker 02 Chuck, I have data on that one. If I've got it right here, dude. I'm putting it in right now, yeah. I got it.
52:47 Mike Rowe? Well, minutes before we started rolling, I asked, when, what could a decent stylist with a decent work ethic expect to hit the ground earning? You know, and, you know, you were like, well, look, I don't have an exact answer. And you clearly wanted one, so you called some guy named Ryan, who happens to have your last name. Is he your nephew?
53:07 Speaker 02 He's my nephew. Again, I'm surrounded by people smarter than me, even from my own family. So that's good news.
53:14 Mike Rowe? So Ryan's answer, I think, was super interesting. He said, based on the data, it's looking like a person could earn high 50s, mid 60s,
53:27 Mike Rowe? working 27 hours a week.
53:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:30 Mike Rowe? That's the interesting part to me in 2025. I think blue collar and white collar are over. I think the color of collars is just bullshit, honestly.
53:40 Speaker 02 Thankfully.
53:41 Mike Rowe? And I think the 40-hour work week is gone, too. People need to make a living based on the time they have, the skills they possess, and whatever the market will give in between. And it feels like that's what your industry can do. You want to work 27 hours a week? You want to work 18? You want to work 60? I mean, obviously, I can double 60 if I double 27 and say, you can be making an easy six figures if you're working full-time in your industry.
54:11 Speaker 02 Yes, you could.
54:12 Mike Rowe? Right out of school.
54:12 Speaker 02 And the good news is, there's no ceiling. There's no, like, haircut price policers that are out there saying, sorry, you're charging too much for your haircut.
54:21 Mike Rowe? Except for the market.
54:22 Speaker 02 Right, you're right. We're here in LA, and maybe that's a little different. I can give you names of hairdressers who are charging $1,500 for a haircut, and they're booked weeks and months in advance.
54:33 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
54:34 Speaker 02 And guess who decided that they wanted to charge them that much? They did. And nobody ever said, no, you can't do that.
54:41 Mike Rowe? Well, we're, I mean, supply does have a way of finding demand and vice versa. So, yes, there's a market for $1,500 haircuts. Most people listening don't understand that and will probably kind of guffaw a little bit. But it's a market and it's real.
55:00 Speaker 02 Well, can I tell you something? I'm actually in the pet grooming industry as well.
55:06 Mike Rowe? You cast a wide net, brother.
55:09 Speaker 02 I know, I told you that. Overachiever. You know, when I was a drug addict, I was a really good drug addict. I was a good one. I'm an overachiever.
55:16 Mike Rowe? How bad did it have you?
55:17 Speaker 02 For about five years.
55:18 Mike Rowe? Yeah? What was your drug of choice?
55:20 Speaker 02 Um, meth.
55:23 Mike Rowe? Really?
55:23 Speaker 02 No.
55:24 Mike Rowe? How long are we talking?
55:25 Speaker 02 Um, I've been clean 23 years.
55:28 Mike Rowe? Wow.
55:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
55:29 Mike Rowe? Congratulations.
55:30 Speaker 02 Thank you.
55:31 Mike Rowe? Couldn't have been easy.
55:33 Speaker 02 No, not at all. I'm grateful, I'm super, super grateful that that is my story. Cause I know that, because I do have a bit of a stage and a platform that by being transparent, that my story does help people and save people.
55:49 Mike Rowe? And you share that?
55:50 Speaker 02 All the time.
55:51 Mike Rowe? I didn't know. Forgive me, because unlike you, I don't have a page full of notes in front of me. I'm interviewing you, man.
55:57 Speaker 02 I'll provide notes for you next time.
55:59 Mike Rowe? I can't believe you have notes about me. It says Mike Rowe at the top of your page. Like you researched me in order to be interviewed.
56:08 Speaker 02 Well, that's how I found about, that you interviewed your mom. And that was one of the, another reason why, like, you know, I like this guy. Cause I had, I had an amazing mom, you know? And we all need amazing moms. But there came a time in my life where I knew that my mom needed an amazing son, you know?
56:26 Mike Rowe? When was that time? About 23 years ago?
56:28 Speaker 02 Before that, actually, before that. And, you know, my mom was my, my date to everything. Everybody's like, you know, Betty White's sitting over there. Why don't you put yourself at Betty White's table or Dolly Parton's table? Cause I'm with my mom at my table. Well, I love that. And even at, you know, 95 years old, you know, she'd fly home after an event with me and my siblings would call me up and say, don't, you know, mom, that was it. That was her last trip. And I'd call her next year, mom, wanna go? Yep, I'm ready to go.
57:00 Mike Rowe? What was her name?
57:01 Speaker 02 Jean. Yeah, amazing lady.
57:05 Speaker 02 And by the way, I talked to her when I first got into business 40 years ago. I was a year in business and I talked her into quitting her job. She had a job, she was a circulation manager at a local newspaper. And I talked her into quitting that job and coming to work with me. And then get this, so my mom, at probably like 85, she leaves me this voice message, you know, "Son, I really need to talk to you." She's never left me that message. I'm like, "Mom, what, what, what is going on?" "Well, you know, I don't know, I've been thinking, maybe it's time for me to retire." "Mom, you can retire." You know, and my siblings, they're all jealous that I got to have that relationship with my mom. They all got to experience mom as this amazing mom, and she was.
57:48 Speaker 02 But I got to experience her as this incredible businesswoman that was just alive with culture.
57:54 Mike Rowe? What did she do for you exactly on the business side?
57:57 Speaker 02 Financial aid, so she helped, you know, the students. But she was like the mom in the school, you know? She was the grandma in the school that my students could rely on. Because the majority of my students were from out of state, so they had moved to attend my school. So they were on their own without their parents. And so, yes, that was the lady who helped them finance and pay for their school and make their monthly payments on their education. But she was that beautiful culture. You know, she taught me about the, about how a culture could really, really turn a business around. You know, a lot of cultures are very, very toxic. And it's just, "I'm here for one thing, and that's just to get a paycheck." "You're not going to get the best out of me. I'm here, you've engaged my time, but you haven't engaged my heart. You haven't engaged my loyalty."
58:42 Speaker 02 And my mom taught me otherwise.
58:44 Mike Rowe? Did she learn that, though, from business, from prior business? Or, because, I mean, how do you learn that from running a circulation department?
58:51 Speaker 02 She learned that from just being a wonderful human, you know? She just knew to engage people. She just, you're going to get me emotional here.
59:00 Mike Rowe? Well, look, all right, look, I'll just, just in the spirit of violent.
59:04 Speaker 02 Am I going to make you uncomfortable if I start crying here?
59:06 Mike Rowe? Cry like a baby, man.
59:07 Speaker 02 Because I do that all the time.
59:08 Mike Rowe? I don't care.
59:09 Speaker 02 Thank you.
59:11 Mike Rowe? No, my mom, I didn't.
59:15 Mike Rowe? Appreciate the significance of this when I saw it, but like I said to you, she wrote every day for sixty years.
59:20 Speaker 02 Right.
59:21 Mike Rowe? And what she wrote about was engagement. She wrote about people. So she'd just be out and she, you know, she was a horse nut and she'd see a cop on a horse. It's like cops on horses. It's amazing. And she'd walk up and, you know, she'd identify the horse and correctly guess its number of hands.
59:40 Speaker 02 Right.
59:40 Mike Rowe? Weight and so forth. And a cop would be interested. And next thing you know, the cop gets off the horse and my mom's interviewing him.
59:45 Speaker 02 Right.
59:46 Mike Rowe? And so she goes home and she writes eight hundred words on the cop she met on horseback.
59:50 Speaker 02 I love this.
59:51 Mike Rowe? It gets better. There's no publisher. There's no audience per se. So what she does, she just puts it on the refrigerator, like on a magnet. And the next day, my dad takes it down and reads to me and my brothers, my mom's latest story. Then he takes it to church. He'll read it at church. Then you're stuck in the elevator. He'll read it to you. You're a stranger. And then you sit at Bob's Big Boy, just trying to have a meal, and some guy, my dad, walks over, hey, have you heard the latest from Peggy Rowe? And he reads it. So I grew up watching my dad read stories that my mom had written in a totally unsolicited way. Simply because she was, she was just curious.
1:00:30 Speaker 02 Right.
1:00:30 Mike Rowe? So, you know, and my mom was never in business. She taught special ed. She didn't know anything about business, but man, did she understood what Jean understood. You know, if you're curious about people, they'll be curious about you. And then maybe you have a basis for, for something. Not an interview, a conversation.
1:00:50 Speaker 02 And to me, that's a successful, healthy culture for profit. Seriously. If more bosses learned what your mom taught about how to engage people. Like I remember a salon owner telling me a story that he hired this nail guru within the beauty industry to teach him. You know, my, my hairdressers are making money. My nail department doesn't make any money. She's like, I'll fly up and spend the day with you and we'll figure this out. So he's giving her a tour and they're in the hair department and he's going up to every hairdresser. He knows them by name. He knows their kids' names. How was the vacation to Hawaii? You know, is your, is your husband recovering from that back surgery right? Goes into the nail department, doesn't know their names, knows nothing about them.
1:01:34 Speaker 02 And she's like, that's the reason why you're not engaged with your team. So that's what your mom taught. Just be curious, be curious and talk to people and engage with people.
1:01:44 Mike Rowe? She didn't teach it. She just lived it.
1:01:47 Speaker 02 Well, that's, that's teaching.
1:01:50 Mike Rowe? That's a good answer.
1:01:51 Speaker 02 Three, three ways you teach people by example, by example, by example.
1:01:55 Mike Rowe? For example.
1:01:56 Speaker 02 No, there you go.
1:01:57 Mike Rowe? There you go.
1:01:59 Mike Rowe? Did your mom understand? And maybe your daughter who you mentioned over lunch, Sophia, was it?
1:02:05 Speaker 02 Sophia.
1:02:07 Mike Rowe? You built a multi-billion dollar brand. Over the things we're talking about now. Over curiosity, over connection, over trust, over have scissors, will travel. Did they understand that when you were doing it, like the enormity of it? I typically don't talk too much about money on this show, but I, it is important, I think, for people to understand that you, you killed it, dude. Like, I mean, you built something marvelous.
1:02:42 Speaker 02 If you asked me about 90% of my industry and my company, I don't have the answer. I would have to ask somebody, like I called Ryan.
1:02:51 Mike Rowe? Yeah, poor Ryan.
1:02:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. Again, I told you my favorite answer is, I don't know, but I know who knows. My, my point is what I do know about is the importance of culture, the foundation. Uh, John Paul, my amazing partner, I mean, they couldn't even pay their own bills. He tells the story, he couldn't even pay his own bills yet for running the company. But we'll tell story after story of how they use their power and their influence to maybe pick up the check for a, a struggling mother who is there with all of her kids and can't pay his own bills, but he's going to pick up their check. And so it was just part of their philosophy. I know a lot of businesses that once they get down that line, down that road of, oh, we're profitable, but we haven't done a damn thing to make a difference.
1:03:36 Speaker 02 You know, we're consumers only, we consume. We consume oxygen, we consume trees, we consume the paychecks of our customers, but we've done nothing to be a contributor. You know, the Palmetto Product Company, and that's how we started the Palmetto Schools too. We're going to start with culture. We don't have a cutting curriculum. We have no idea how we're going to teach you how to cut hair, but we're going to teach you how to be a good human being. We're going to teach you the value of being nice and of communication and then treating each other with respect. And like, all of that was far more important to us. And I, you know, maybe I'm taking a risk in saying this, but I'm pretty confident in
1:04:16 Speaker 02 saying, if you ask any of my graduates, ask the 100,000 graduates of my schools, of course they'll brag, "Yeah, I learned how to cut hair, but what I really loved about that school was the culture." That's what they're going to say.
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1:04:59 Mike Rowe? Does that get more important to you as you get older?
1:05:05 Speaker 02 Absolutely. As I get older and as I became a dad, you know, you just see the, you see the value.
1:05:14 Mike Rowe? Is it a legacy thing? Or is it a... That word makes me a little uneasy sometimes.
1:05:20 Speaker 02 Legacy?
1:05:21 Mike Rowe? Yeah. Only because it just feels like little monuments you might build for yourself or to yourself.
1:05:28 Speaker 02 Right.
1:05:29 Mike Rowe? I don't know the exact etymology or definition, obviously, but I know the importance of feeling like you did something with your day. Some days you sleep better than others. Some days you see the needle move.
1:05:40 Speaker 02 I heard, I heard somebody say that, you know, when people get in old age, there's three reasons of why they might die. One is they lose money. It's expensive to get old. Two, they lose love. How many old people are in retirement homes with no visitors? Three, they lose purpose. And so I think to focus on purpose. You know, that's the legacy part of it. For me, that's what legacy would be. Like, did I really make a difference in the lives of people? I'm sure it's cool that people say, gosh, I formed a company and and I was able to create opportunities for people who are now multimillionaires. I'm sure that's super important. I love money and people who say that they don't care to make money would lie about other things as well.
1:06:24 Speaker 02 I love money, you know, but but as far as legacy, it's, you know, to really make a difference in people's lives and yeah, becoming a dad absolutely taught me that. Having the mom that I had taught me that. But you better believe age has taught me that. To be this old, that didn't come out well. But to be this old, yeah, that's I just, I just want to make a difference.
1:06:45 Mike Rowe? Give me the three again. The three reasons people.
1:06:49 Speaker 02 They lose money.
1:06:50 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
1:06:51 Speaker 02 They lose love, so relationships, and the third is purpose. What gets me out of bed in the morning is not that I'm running a successful financial aid department or that my my IT department is running smoothly. I have people who are brilliant at that. They don't want me near that. They don't give me a key to my building. They don't want me watering the plants. But what they do rely on me is to make sure that this is a good place to work. You know, I think that there's three basic human needs. Number one, people need to feel safe. And I could go on and on about what that means. People need to feel that they belong. They say that 60% of people say, no one has my back. And half of them are married.
1:07:35 Speaker 02 So if we create a culture at work where people show up and they feel like they belong to something. I mean, people, they get that at church, they get that in other places. But how many of them actually get it at work? And the third basic human need, people need to have a purpose. The best way I know how to explain that is you could have two janitors working for the same elementary school. Same job, same salary, same everything. One has the attitude of, these little brats make a mess around here. It's my job to clean it up. That's what they pay me to do. And the other one has the attitude of, it's my privilege, it's my opportunity to create a clean educational learning environment for the next generation that's going to save this planet.
1:08:17 Mike Rowe? There was a study done years ago. I'll forget the name, but it tracked the lives of two identical twins.
1:08:26 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:08:27 Mike Rowe? Two boys, and one of them, both lost their parents at the same time. And one of them wound up on death row. The other wound up running an operation similar in scope and size to yours. And at the end of this documentary, it's just so powerful. The question is, to what do you attribute your current circumstance? Opposed to each of the twins. And of course, the answer was identical. With parents like the ones I had, how could I have wound up anywhere else?
1:09:04 Speaker 02 Wow.
1:09:05 Mike Rowe? You know, I hear versions of that. I hear people try and make sense out of different outcomes through same circumstances. Somebody asked Larry Ellison once, to what he attributed his great success. And his answer, I loved it, was, "Well, I had just the right amount of adversity."
1:09:26 Mike Rowe? So I wonder, you know, I mean, when you look at, you know, seven siblings. When you look at whatever it was like growing up in Southern California by way of Utah, you know. How did, if it did, how did adversity shape Win Claybaugh?
1:09:43 Speaker 02 Not a lot of adversity. Lot of expectations, again, a really, really good work ethic. The adversity certainly didn't come from my upbringing, my family. You know, I found the adversity on my own. I sought that out myself. But again, zero regrets. You know, you and I have talked a lot about Gary Sinise.
1:10:05 Mike Rowe? Thanks for the hat, by the way.
1:10:06 Speaker 02 My pleasure.
1:10:07 Mike Rowe? Gary Sinise Foundation, a hoodie.
1:10:09 Speaker 02 So Gary introduced me-
1:10:10 Mike Rowe? One of the best people walking around.
1:10:11 Speaker 02 We love that man.
1:10:12 Mike Rowe? You better.
1:10:13 Speaker 02 Love that man. And I travel often with one of his ambassadors for the Gary Sinise Foundation. Cedric King, who's a double amputee and lost his legs stepping on an IUD in Afghanistan. And within 24 months of him losing his legs, he's running the Boston Marathon. And so his stories are incredible.
1:10:33 Mike Rowe? I hate that guy.
1:10:33 Speaker 02 But when I, oh, I know. When I interviewed him for my podcast, I asked him, I said, "If you could go back and change that day, the day that you..." Stepped on that bomb and lost your legs. Would you go back and change that date? He said, absolutely not. He says, I probably would have ended up divorced. I probably would have ended up. My two girls probably wouldn't want to have anything to do with me. He says, I was on the path of being a total jerk and losing my legs. Saved all that.
1:11:04 Mike Rowe? You know, let me ask you this. This is personal. Don't answer if you don't want. But if I'm doing the math right, you got clean from the meth 23 years ago.
1:11:13 Speaker 02 Correct.
1:11:14 Mike Rowe? You've been in business with JP for 25 years.
1:11:17 Speaker 02 You're doing the math right.
1:11:18 Mike Rowe? All right. So for two years, I assume you're not in the closet with this. He must have known.
1:11:25 Speaker 02 I don't know that he knew. I was pretty good at separating it functioning. You know, so I never mixed the two with work and with my drug addiction. I mean, it got, you know, pretty bad. I could have easily lost everything. Fortunately, and I'm just going to say it was by grace. One day I knew I was done and that was it.
1:11:50 Mike Rowe? During lunch, you said, hey, you should interview JP. Would you be interested in that? I, yeah, but is he more interesting than you?
1:12:00 Speaker 02 He's a very interesting guy.
1:12:02 Mike Rowe? No, no, no. Is he more interesting than you? Five years on the pipe, billion dollar empire, beautiful 13 year old girl, fantastic mother, giving workshops and speeches around the country, launching hundreds of thousands of careers, generating hundreds of billions of dollars for regular people who are trying to put food on the table. He's more interesting than you?
1:12:29 Speaker 02 You're being very generous.
1:12:31 Mike Rowe? Yeah, I am, but I mean it.
1:12:34 Speaker 02 I'm blessed. I have a sweet life.
1:12:39 Mike Rowe? What do you want people to take from the book? And how long ago did you write it, by the way?
1:12:43 Speaker 02 The book's been out for about 20 years. It's still, I think this is the 15th printing, so it's still going strong. Originally, the book started off just as an employee manual.
1:12:54 Mike Rowe? Really?
1:12:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, it was. And it was actually the president of Southwest Airlines, Colleen Barrett, who said to me, you know, this should be a book. And if you make it into a book, I'll buy thousands of copies to give out to my team. And I said, cha-ching, I'll do it.
1:13:13 Mike Rowe? You mercenary.
1:13:15 Speaker 02 By the way, I'm not a reader. I don't read. I wrote a book, but I don't read. I gather a lot of information, the way we're doing this right now, which is why I started my podcast. I was already asking people those questions, because that's how I've always gained my knowledge, is by finding heroes and asking those questions.
1:13:32 Mike Rowe? Taylor was worried we were gonna have another...
1:13:36 Speaker 02 You'll edit this, right, Chuck?
1:13:37 Speaker 01 You bet I will.
1:13:39 Mike Rowe? We'll probably cut it into the open.
1:13:41 Speaker 02 Oh, great.
1:13:42 Mike Rowe? Keeping it real.
1:13:43 Speaker 02 This is results of we talking about my mom, so...
1:13:46 Mike Rowe? Oh, I thought you were gonna say, this is what happens when you wax the inside of your nose.
1:13:50 Speaker 02 No, we're still gonna do that.
1:13:52 Speaker 01 I thought you were gonna say, these are the results of being on meth for 20 years.
1:13:58 Speaker 02 Leave it up to Chuck.
1:14:01 Speaker 02 Throw me under the bus without...
1:14:02 Mike Rowe? Oh, man. I'm just so delighted this has happened.
1:14:10 Mike Rowe? I really am so glad that I wandered into that salon in North Carolina.
1:14:15 Speaker 02 So am I.
1:14:16 Mike Rowe? And listened to that girl's story. I don't... I mean, if you'd told me just a year ago that we were going to include in our scholarship for electricians and plumbers and steam fitters and shipbuilders, and pipe benders, and energy work, and oil fields and so forth, cosmetology, I'd have said, man, you're on the meth.
1:14:41 Mike Rowe? This is never gonna happen. I'm not gonna do that. Because, you know, a lot of what I wind up looking at is like, what is the country suffering from? And my first answer wasn't, you know, an abundance of bad haircuts. It's like, we're gonna be okay. But of course, what is the country really suffering from? It's suffering from people who have lost purpose, who have lost hope, who are struggling financially. Your big three, you know? And to be able to find those things through the mastery of a skill, any skill, any skill. You know, I don't mean to make trouble for four-year schools. I went to a four-year school. My liberal arts education served me pretty well.
1:15:26 Mike Rowe? It was, you know, awfully affordable at the time. But I, um, you know, when I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And I was wrong to not think about your industry. And you were right to stalk me. I'm still not clear how you found me because you sure as hell didn't call Frank, my long-dead barber, for a reference.
1:15:44 Speaker 02 I'm very, very good at finding the right people and getting to them.
1:15:48 Mike Rowe? How, how, I mean, really, how did you do it? Who did you?
1:15:51 Speaker 02 Well, fortunately, again, I sent a lot of DMs. I called a lot of people that I knew, very influential people. And then what happened was I found out that I was the keynote speaker at an event that you were the keynote speaker a couple of years before I was in Las Vegas. And so I, once I found that out, I called the organizers. Yeah, this is the person who booked. And so that person called, called Mary, called your people, and that's how we got to each other. No, and then I had to back it up. But, you know, I was, I was a good guy. I was very kind and reaching out to your people and offered Mary free facials and all kinds of things, you know?
1:16:32 Mike Rowe? Look, she'll, she'll take you.
1:16:33 Speaker 02 No, I was telling you that I, you know, there's, you know, probably a good 20 of my daughter's teachers over the years who get their haircuts and facials at my school. And, and the other parents are like, are you trying to bribe the teachers? I'm like, of course I am. You better believe it. When I, when I dragged Marie Osmond over to the table of my daughter's teacher, you know, because she's a huge Marie Osmond fan and there's Marie at her table. And my teacher turned to me and said, your daughter is getting an A tomorrow.
1:17:02 Speaker 02 We do what we gotta do.
1:17:03 Mike Rowe? What did you say early on, hairdressers rule the world? Was that something like that?
1:17:08 Speaker 02 Hairdressers make things happen. You know, if you want to get something happen, go to a hairdresser. You want to find the best surgeon in town? Call a hairdresser. You want to get to the news broadcaster? Call a hairdresser because they all engage hairdressers.
1:17:20 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
1:17:21 Speaker 02 And so whenever I want to get something, you want to raise money. That's the thing. You want to raise money and make a difference? Call hairdressers. So when I tell you that my Palm Beach schools have raised and donated $27 million, that's not because we're getting $1,000 donations or a million dollar grants. Our average donation is $5 or $10 because it's very grassroots. Oh, get this, my, my school in Orlando to raise money, uh, came up with this idea to do a topless car wash. And so they did signs all over town, topless car wash. So of course, everybody showed up. But what it meant was they didn't wash the top of your car.
1:17:58 Speaker 02 If you wanted the top wash, you had to pay extra. Oh, get this, they raised $1,500 in their parking lot of the Palm Beach school.
1:18:06 Mike Rowe? I love it.
1:18:06 Speaker 02 Yeah. Or it's bake sales, it's cut-a-thon, it's, it's pet fashion shows. It's literally hundreds and hundreds of little fundraising events that my schools do on an annual basis. And again, today, we're at 27 million.
1:18:24 Mike Rowe? So.
1:18:24 Speaker 02 But that's not uncommon in our industry. You know, I mean, it's, we work with the Fred Jordan Mission here. It's a Skid Row Mission here in downtown LA. And three, four times a year, I send a hundred of my students who are there on Skid Row. And so everything's going on around them, but they're there cutting hair. That mission serves 1,000 homeless people a, a year.
1:18:46 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
1:18:46 Speaker 02 Or I'm sorry, 1,000 people a day.
1:18:48 Mike Rowe? A day.
1:18:49 Speaker 02 A day. And so they're there for, whether it's back to school, so they're there to get the kids groomed, you know, when a kid's not groomed, they're a target. They're, they're bullied at school. Let's get them cleaned up before they start school.
1:19:00 Mike Rowe? And also, I mean, the distance between grooming, basic hygiene, decent clothes, and self-esteem, it's just so linked.
1:19:12 Mike Rowe? There are no small things.
1:19:14 Speaker 02 Right.
1:19:15 Mike Rowe? A haircut is not a small thing if it's the thing that allows you to get to the interview.
1:19:21 Speaker 02 I know so many hairdressers who literally are hitting the streets on a regular basis to do hair for the homeless. You know, I have a very famous wealthy hairdresser friend who has a celebrity clientele like you wouldn't believe, you know, when he, but when the Tonys are going on, he doesn't go to the after-party. He's like, no, to be sober and to live my purpose, he's, they're going to the party, he's hitting the streets to do hair for the homeless. Can I tell you a quick story?
1:19:48 Mike Rowe? Please.
1:19:48 Speaker 02 So I interviewed this, uh, this woman by the name of Sister Bonnie, a Catholic nun who wanted to become a hairdresser as a nun so that she could do hair for the homeless. So get this, she gets permission from the Catholic Church to enroll in beauty school, graduates, opens up her salon, which she named the Pearlie Gates Salon. It was located in a tiny bathroom of a shower facility for the homeless in downtown Cincinnati. And so I flew out there, spent a couple of days with Sister Bonnie, and she showed me this little tiny bathroom where she cut hair for seven years and did 10,000 homeless people. And get this, she said, when I'm the only Catholic nun that can say, I've been in the bathroom with 10,000 men and they all came out smiling.
1:20:37 Mike Rowe? You ever been to a hair museum?
1:20:40 Speaker 02 I have not.
1:20:41 Mike Rowe? Oh.
1:20:41 Speaker 02 Have you?
1:20:42 Mike Rowe? Taylor, what's her last name, was Leila? Leila, her last name? Yeah. She passed away a couple of years ago, but about 10 years ago.
1:20:51 Speaker 02 I think I've heard about these museums, so it's like, like famous hair of certain people, okay?
1:20:55 Mike Rowe? Yes, but you know, once upon a time, like you mentioned earlier, you know, a little lock of your hair in a book.
1:21:02 Speaker 02 Right, I've got it.
1:21:03 Mike Rowe? Well, like entire histories, this used to like, people had hair books in their homes in the 17, 1800s, and Leila Calhoun? Cahill. Cahill. She had outside Independence, Missouri, not far from Harry Truman's house, this museum and like a strip mall. It was one of the most fascinating museums I've ever been in. I mean, there's Abraham Lincoln.
1:21:28 Speaker 02 So what's it, okay.
1:21:29 Mike Rowe? It's famous people's hair.
1:21:31 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:21:32 Mike Rowe? And then lineage and it's like, it was sort of a, it was a kind of 23 and me before there was any tech.
1:21:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, it was like genealogy.
1:21:41 Mike Rowe? Yes, exactly.
1:21:41 Speaker 01 People would pass it down in their family. Here's your great uncle's hair, et cetera, et cetera.
1:21:46 Mike Rowe? Yeah. Anyway, you said something earlier that just made me think that there, again, there are no small vocations and we make things small sometimes that we don't understand. You know, maybe because they scare us or maybe just because it puffs our, puffs us up. But, you know, wherever that thing was where we both spoke, you know, that was an acronym and there was an organization under it that I'd never heard of. But was terribly important and very relevant to people who were there. And that's our world, you know, that's our world, these groups of people who care deeply and they live in their lanes. I appreciated the invite to your gala and the reason I sent the video is because obviously I couldn't make it and I felt bad, but.
1:22:30 Speaker 02 Well, I have the dates for next year if you want to get that down while we got this on video.
1:22:35 Mike Rowe? Well, you met Mary, have a chat with her. I'm sure we can work something out. And whether we can or whether we can't, if you're interested, I'm happy to return the favor on your podcast if you'd have me.
1:22:45 Speaker 02 Oh, are you kidding?
1:22:46 Mike Rowe? If you'd have me.
1:22:47 Speaker 02 Oh, my gosh.
1:22:49 Mike Rowe? Yeah. Wow. Did you do them long distance or in person?
1:22:51 Speaker 02 Either whatever works.
1:22:53 Mike Rowe? All right. You're down south, right? Like around a.
1:22:55 Speaker 02 I'm down in Corona del Mar. You know, actually pre-COVID, I did for that many years, 25 years, they were all in person.
1:23:03 Mike Rowe? Yeah.
1:23:03 Speaker 02 And then once COVID hit, you had no choice.
1:23:05 Mike Rowe? Isn't it crazy?
1:23:06 Speaker 02 But you know what? Also, technology improved because before, back then, it was like one person sounded good and the other person did not sound good. Now you don't know the difference.
1:23:15 Mike Rowe? Do you use like Riverside?
1:23:17 Speaker 02 Riverside platform. It's incredible.
1:23:19 Mike Rowe? All right, well.
1:23:19 Speaker 02 It sounds great.
1:23:20 Mike Rowe? That's the other thing and the final thought that I, that I really do love about your industry.
1:23:26 Mike Rowe? Return to work? What are you talking about, man? That it never stops. And just because the salon's closed doesn't mean your people aren't coming out and making house calls. It was an amazing thing to watch. You know, there weren't a lot of silver linings during those days. But, um, but I do think it really showed us. You know, you adapt, or you're done. You pivot or perish. You know, and so many people in your industry have pivoted. You built a hell of a thing, Win. Congratulations. The book is called Be Nice or Else. I think he means it, although I doubt he's ever really actually hurt anybody. And where should people maybe go if they want to explore a career? Get started in one of your schools? There's bound to be a website.
1:24:09 Speaker 02 Absolutely. Just Paul Mitchell dot edu.
1:24:13 Mike Rowe? Dot edu.
1:24:14 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
1:24:15 Mike Rowe? Excellent.
1:24:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:24:16 Mike Rowe? Anything you, uh, wish you would've said that you didn't? I'm looking at all your notes there. I mean, I-
1:24:21 Speaker 02 We could talk more and more about your mom.
1:24:24 Mike Rowe? You know what?
1:24:24 Speaker 02 Talking about moms.
1:24:25 Mike Rowe? Let's save that for yours.
1:24:26 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:24:27 Mike Rowe? I'd be honored to be a guest on, what is it? The Masters?
1:24:29 Speaker 02 Masters.
1:24:30 Mike Rowe? Me, Larry King, Betty White? Are you kidding?
1:24:33 Speaker 02 I know.
1:24:33 Mike Rowe? I'll be there.
1:24:34 Speaker 02 Nice lineup.
1:24:35 Mike Rowe? Thanks for not buying me lunch. You owe me one.
1:24:42 Mike Rowe? This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry it went on so long. But if it made you smile, then share your satisfaction in the way that people do. Take some time to go online and leave us a review.
1:25:18 Mike Rowe? I hate to ask, I hate to beg, I hate to be a nudge. But in this world, the advertisers really like to judge. You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. Not four. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. And not three. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. Definitely not two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five star review. We need five. All you've got to do is leave a quick. Even if you hate it. Five. Star. Especially if you're.
1:25:49 Mike Rowe? Thank you.
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