#2308 - Jordan Peterson

Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist, co-founder of the educational platform Peterson Academy, host of "The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast," and the author of several bestselling books. His most recent title is "We Who Wrestle with God: Perceptions of the Divine." www.jordanbpeterson.com Get 20% off premium protein meat sticks at https://paleovalley.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day. No, no, I'm too vain. That's exactly right. I look back and I think, oh, those headphones are pushing up my hair. Isn't that sad?

• 0:22Joe Rogan?

  You shave your head.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  That's sad.

• 0:24Joe Rogan?

  You never look back if you do.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 0:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's the greatest thing in the world. It's freedom.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  I have a big dent here from when a meteorite landed on me when I was a kid.

• 0:32Joe Rogan?

  A meteorite? Oh, funny story.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  I know.

• 0:35Joe Rogan?

  I've got plenty of cuts on my head. I got them all over the place.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Well, you're looking pretty unscarred.

• 0:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the back of my head, I have one when I was a little kid, it's pretty big, that these, one of these cranes that lifts up sewer pipes, those big concrete pipes banged me off the back of the head.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's not good.

• 0:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, grayed out, went to the hospital.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Were you a different person before that experience?

• 0:57Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. I don't know, you'd have to talk to my mom. I was always a little wild.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  This could be of autobiographical significance.

• 1:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, there's definitely a lot of head trauma.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Were you knocked out?

• 1:06Joe Rogan?

  Going on with my personality. No, no, I stayed conscious, but I got close.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  That's the big predictor.

• 1:10Joe Rogan?

  I got grayed. Everything, I grayed out, but I came back to. I didn't completely go unconscious. So Jamie went golfing this weekend with OJ Simpson's golf clubs.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Uh-oh.

• 1:22Speaker 03

  Not with OJ, he's not here.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  You should be exercised. That would be the next, that would definitely be the next step.

• 1:27Joe Rogan?

  Jamie bought OJ Simpson's golf clubs after he died.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  This is like a childhood dream?

• 1:31Speaker 03

  No, they were just for sale. I saw them for sale, I said, why not? They came in, I wanted some big grips.

• 1:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, a couple of my friends, what did Shane get? Shane got a bunch of stuff, right?

• 1:41Speaker 03

  I talked him into buying some stuff, yeah.

• 1:42Joe Rogan?

  He got like scarves and...

• 1:43Speaker 03

  Ties, he bought a bunch of ties.

• 1:45Joe Rogan?

  I think scarves, too.

• 1:46Speaker 03

  Okay, he bought a trophy.

• 1:48Joe Rogan?

  A trophy?

• 1:49Speaker 03

  And a Bill Clinton signed photo.

• 1:50Joe Rogan?

  And he spent thousands of dollars.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  What was this? Was this some sort of OJ Simpson auction?

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was like an estate sale, yeah.

• 1:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You know, he's dead now, so you can get his stuff.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Right, for nothing. Pennies on the dollar.

• 2:02Joe Rogan?

  Let's, I mean, only people like Jamie and Shane are dumb enough to buy. I was like, it's like... For a goof. It's one of those things like you're either getting it for a goof or you're a very dark person.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right, right.

• 2:15Joe Rogan?

  I wouldn't want to own it, even for a goof. Like if I found OJ played pool, I wouldn't want his clue, his cue.

• 2:21Speaker 03

  Was there cues? No, there wasn't. There was a weird notebook that Robert Kardashian had like handwritten stuff to him.

• 2:27Joe Rogan?

  Blood splattered on it.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  I was like, whoa, that might be interesting, but.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  It's taking a vicious turn, Joe, already.

• 2:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's a dark story.

• 2:34Speaker 01

  It is.

• 2:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you only know the surface of it.

• 2:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's dark in both ways. It's also dark and planted evidence. You know, there was blood at the scene of the crime that had preservative in it. Allegedly, supposedly, according to Robert Kardashian and according to, I believe, the forensic scientists when they analyzed it. It matched OJ's blood. But they had to draw blood from OJ in order to determine whether or not it was his blood that was at the scene of the crime. And some of the blood found at the scene of the crime had that preservative in it that they use. They were sloppy in the 90s, you know.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  Compared to now.

• 3:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, there was no DNA evidence back then, you know, people were, cops were, there, there's always going to be a certain percentage of cops that just want to convict somebody regardless of the evidence. And if there's, you know, in their mind, they believe someone's guilty, they'll do whatever they, they can, including planting evidence, I guess. At least that's allegedly. I don't, not that I don't think he did it. I definitely think he did it, but I also think the cops planted evidence, which is probably, at least partially why he got off, you know? I think the big reason why he got off was Rodney King, right?

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Have you gone into the whole George Floyd story at all? Have you ever like looked at? Like what they actually did to him for, it's a combination of things. Like what the cop did was horrible, but also he was dying. You know, like, most people probably, like, if they did that to you, you probably would have lived. You know, that guy had an enlarged heart. But that cop did lean on his neck, which is always interesting to see people try to minimize that, you know. I'm al- I'm always, like, you gotta be able to just say what it is.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  A lot of situations can be ugly in a multitude of ways.

• 4:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Right, that's when things get, well, that's when it's very difficult to pick your moral pathway forward. All your choices are not good.

• 4:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes, which is oftentimes the case when it comes to conflicts, right?

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:41Joe Rogan?

  Conflicts are very complicated and they're, and people want it to be binary. They want there to be a good guy and a bad guy, and that's oftentimes not really the case.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Well, it's har- hard to organize yourself for combat unless you are quite convinced that you're the good guy. So there's a default to that dichotomy that's a necessary part of, well, even standing your own ground, right? Because otherwise you get demoralized. And so I suppose people, well, when they're threatened, they default to a simple narrative. And because that's, you can't defend yourself in some ways. It's very hard to defend yourself, especially physically or militarily, without a pretty cut and dried narrative.

• 5:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, especially like military operatives, you know, you have to have a very, your, your life and the people that you're with. Their life depends on you not having any confusion about whether or not.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 5:31Joe Rogan?

  It's morally correct to be doing what you're doing. That's why they like to break it down to kill bad dudes, you know, kill bad dudes.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:38Joe Rogan?

  Real simple, let's go. They tell us what to do, we do it. Which is what, you want to stay alive, you want your teammates to stay alive, that's what you have to do.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you never know when doubt will cause a fraction of a second difference in reaction time.

• 5:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's always the thing with physical altercations with people too. You know, oftentimes people get sucked into these things where they're not sure whether to act or not act, and that's when they get in trouble.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:05Joe Rogan?

  You know.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Right, that's probably true in life. You don't want to oversimplify things too, but once you've made a decision. Well, that's when it's necessary to put doubts behind you because otherwise you just act in half measures.

• 6:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and oftentimes you have to have done the wrong thing before, like, like failed to act or hesitated to act and it cost you. And then you have to learn that lesson. It's very difficult to like know that without experiencing mistakes.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 6:33Joe Rogan?

  You know, you have to, you have to have failed to act and then realize, oh, I should have done something there.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's, I think that's partly too. One of the things that I often faced in my clinical practice and with the students that I mentored was this confusion about acting. I don't know what to do, so what should I do? Well, nothing. I'll wait around until I figure out what to do. It's like, no. You should put together a bad plan and you should implement it. Because even if you fail in the implementation, you'll gather information. And then you can rectify the plan. And so staying in that malaise until you know what to do makes you get older and more miserable and you gather no information along the way.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  A bad plan is a good idea. Best, you know. Any plan is better than none. That's a good rule of thumb. And a bad plan. A bad plan can be incrementally improved.

• 7:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  With experience.

• 7:34Joe Rogan?

  Right. He who hesitates is lost.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's really difficult for young people. I think more so today than ever at any time in history. Because the distractions are so many and they're so engrossing. You know, if you get out of high school, you don't know what to do. And then you start playing video games and you're on social media. A day can slip by like that.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:57Joe Rogan?

  A day becomes a week, becomes a month, becomes a year, and before you know it, you're thirty.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 8:02Joe Rogan?

  And you haven't done shit.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:03Joe Rogan?

  And that's really common. That's really common today. And I don't think we can ignore those factors, the factors of just engrossing distractions.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and the algorithms optimized for short-term attention.

• 8:18Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  So, you know, it's a weird thing, eh? Because you could imagine that you would want a machine. That offers you what you want, right? Because you want ads that are targeted to you because you want to see a bunch of ads that aren't relevant to you now and then because maybe you'll learn something. And content, well, why not have a machine shovel the same sort of things that you are interested in at you?

• 8:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  That's a kind of curation. The problem comes, and we haven't figured this out at all technically and probably not psychologically, the problem comes in timeframe, right? Because there's a big difference between what you might be interested in if you were diligently striving towards a long-term goal that required conscientiousness and what's going to attract your attention right now, this moment.

• 9:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  And the thing about the algorithms is that they maximize for short-term attention. And that's a, so basically they're ma, they're actually optimizing for hedonism.

• 9:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  And, and then you might say, well, so what? Because you're getting what you want. Well, the problem with short-term impulsive hedonism is it doesn't play out well over any reasonable time span.

• 9:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  That's why you have to mature, which is painful and annoying, but absolutely necessary and much better than the alternative. The alternative is exactly what, that's Peter Pan, right?

• 9:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Thirty-year-old, I still haven't grown up and

• 9:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  I'm a little past my, uh, shelf life now, too.

• 9:42Joe Rogan?

  I think people are afraid of losing fun. They think that when you grow up, you lose fun. But it's silly. It's not true. You can grow up and still have fun. This episode is presented by Searchlight Pictures' Wild Horse 9. Shortly before Chile's 1973 coup, two CIA agents, played by John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, find their mission on Easter Island spiraling into a web of conspiracies, unexpected alliances, and chaos. Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change.

• 10:24Joe Rogan?

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• 11:04Joe Rogan?

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• 11:49Joe Rogan?

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• 12:33Joe Rogan?

  This offer is for new customers only. You know, you just have to, you have to have discipline and prioritize your time.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Well, that's why Christ says to people that they have to become as little children, not stay.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Right, you have to rediscover that.

• 12:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, rediscover the joy of it. Yeah, but also.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Kids are good for that too, aren't they? Because they teach you that again. You look at the world through eyes of memory by the time you're an adult. So the world loses its freshness. That's part of... The world loses its freshness because you see your memories instead of the world. And then kids come along and you think, oh, oh yeah, that's really actually quite interesting. And they're so compelled by everything because their perceptions are so fresh that they share that with you. And that can help reawaken that spirit of childhood play, let's say. I've been thinking a lot about play in the last year or so.

• 13:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Well, I spent a lot of time trying to take apart the causes of like truly pathological degeneration, right? On the sadistic side, on the criminal side, on the totalitarian side. Very curious about tyranny. And

• 13:44Speaker 01

  I... It was very difficult for me to conceptualize the opposite of that as cleanly as I could characterize its presence. Like, what's the opposite of tyranny? It's not freedom, by the way. It's certainly not anarchic freedom. It's not hedonistic freedom.

• 14:00Joe Rogan?

  Benevolence?

• 14:01Speaker 01

  I think it's play.

• 14:02Joe Rogan?

  Play.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  I think it's play.

• 14:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:04Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Well, the developmental psychologist Jean Piaget, one of the things he pointed out was that

• 14:14Speaker 01

  play... So let's say play is the foundation of micro-community, right? When you're a little kid, you play a game with another kid. And then if that works well, you inhabit a little dyadic community. You're both in it together. And then if it really works, you replicate that across time and that gives you a friend. But there's... Play is a very interesting... It's very interesting psychologically and psychobiologically because it has to be entered in voluntarily. You can't force someone to play. And it's also... Motivationally fragile. So mammals have a play circuit and it can be disrupted by pretty much any other motivational or emotional circuit. So the circumstances have to be set up properly.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Like the walled garden, you know, that idea? The walled garden is a place that play can take place, like eternally, so to speak. And, and because it has to be undertaken voluntarily, it's the opposite of tyranny. And I, like, my wife and I have really started to apply this in our marriage more consciously, you know, once, once I'd figured out this relationship. Cause I've been lecturing to people for a long time about how to conduct themselves in life so they don't become a tyrant or a handmaiden to the tyrants, right? A silent handmaiden to the tyrants, let's say. And aiming at play. You know, when we walked in here today, one of the things we said was, let's have some fun, you know?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  And I've been thinking this, this morning too, about what attitude I should take coming in to talk to you. And there isn't a better attitude, there isn't a better attitude than play. And so, and I think it is because it's the antithesis, it's the antithesis of tyranny in particular. And then you were talking more about mature play. And that's that good, you know, that also makes sense. This, this is the issue with the idea that adulthood isn't any fun. It's like, well, you wanna play a simple game? Or do you wanna play a really sophisticated game really well? Now you're, that's gonna require some discipline and some training and some maturation, but the payoff is much higher.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  That's a good way to conceptualize marriage.

• 16:26Joe Rogan?

  The highs are higher when you're successful.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Well, and, and also the, the people who have the most sex now are religious married couples.

• 16:34Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, isn't that funny?

• 16:36Joe Rogan?

  Which religion?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, good, good question, Joe. Good question. Well, I guess in the West, that would obviously be Christianity, but, but, but it's an, but it's an interesting case example of the sorts of things we're talking about because you can imagine at the dawn of the sexual revolution, when the birth control pill became prevalent, that the last hypothesis anyone would have possibly generated was that The cascading consequences of that over fifty years would be, well, radical increase in pornography use because sex has been made less dangerous by the pill. And that the people who are having the most sex would be religious married couples.

• 17:13Joe Rogan?

  Right, but is that true because like pornography essentially was very difficult to acquire before the birth control pill was invented?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  True, true.

• 17:20Joe Rogan?

  Right, you used to have to go somewhere to get the pornography. Isn't part of the excess use of pornography just because the access is so instantaneous now?

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely, but you could imagine too that you might have hypothesized that if the birth control pill took the threat out of sex, that pornography would be less necessary. That didn't seem to work out.

• 17:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  So, I, it's certainly the availability is, yeah.

• 17:44Joe Rogan?

  We would never know though, because the, the birth control was, when was it, nineteen sixty something?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  That's really when it started to, yeah, when it started to, to, to ramp up, let's say.

• 17:57Joe Rogan?

  It's so crazy because it completely changed the din- the dynamic. Women could have sex for recreation with people that they didn't even know and not have any consequences in terms of like having to carry that person's child. Whereas that was always a giant fear. If you're a woman, in the back of your head, every time you have sex, you possibly could be taking care of a child for the next eighteen plus years.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, well that-

• 18:20Joe Rogan?

  Every time.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, right, right.

• 18:22Joe Rogan?

  Take this thing, this is a consequential thing where with, with a guy, it's like you have this biological imperative to spread your seed, but you're not thinking about making babies, right? You're thinking about sexual activity. When a guy's having sex, he's not thinking, "I can't wait to make a baby." You're just thinking, "Boy, sex is gonna be great, I'm excited. Oh, boy, that's fun." You're not thinking, "I'm making a kid," because that would make you hesitant and nature's not interested in hesitation. Nature's like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no, let's just make you dumb as fuck for about twenty minutes and focus on one goal."

• 18:59Speaker 01

  So, why did you get married?

• 19:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, I love my wife, she wanted to get married. We had a, a child, it seemed like a good thing to do. It's like, at a certain point in time-

• 19:13Joe Rogan?

  Making a baby is more of a commitment than getting married. You made a life, you know? Like, the commitment of getting married seemed...

• 19:21Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 19:22Joe Rogan?

  Of course. But it's also...

• 19:25Speaker 01

  But why did you stay committed then, before the marriage, once you had a child?

• 19:29Joe Rogan?

  I just think it's a thing to do. I love her, it's a thing to do. It's a... Life and raising a child became everything. It becomes, it becomes a very different thing, right? I think, I have a lot of friends who don't have kids. And I don't, I'm not the type of person that thinks everyone should have a kid. You know, I know a lot of people with kids, they do say that. I don't think everyone should have a kid. I think you should do whatever you want. I don't know how your brain works. I assume your brain works along similar lines with me. But there's a thing that happens when you do...

• 19:59Speaker 01

  It's a scary thought, Joel.

• 20:01Joe Rogan?

  Similar lines. Similar, I think we all share...

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 20:05Joe Rogan?

  Similar, similar lines. There's an empathy that comes from having a child that's so different. And an understanding that we are all babies that grew up. We all start off as these bundles of potential and genetics. And then we're influenced by so many different things, or so many different factors. But I used to think of people as being grown up all the time. And then when I had kids, I was like, oh... We're all just babies. We're all just babies that have just been alive for a long time. You know, everyone started out as a baby. And it just profoundly changed the way I interact with people.

• 20:46Joe Rogan?

  The amount of compassion I have for people, the amount of charity that I have for people. The charitable way in which I think about them when they do something, or they say something. I give people the benefit of the doubt way more. And Dave Chappelle said this to me once at the Comedy Store, and it was very profound. He said, "Having children didn't just change the amount of love I have, it changed my capacity for love."

• 21:13Joe Rogan?

  And I was like, ooh, that's it. You just nailed it. You just nailed it. You know, 'cause there's...

• 21:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's private moments when you talk to people about their children, about having children and what that's like. It's a very psychedelic experience.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  That would be another reason why the family with children is the foundation of the community, has to be the foundation of the community. I mean, it's kind of obvious from a biological perspective, let's say. No children, no community. But there's no reason to assume that you wouldn't get radically better at something with necessity and practice. And if you're practicing loving your infant and your child, well, why wouldn't that generalize? Why wouldn't that capacity develop?

• 21:56Joe Rogan?

  It's not like a practice. It's like an overwhelming desire that comes about. Like, the love you have for your child is like, it's not like anything else. It's very different. It's very... My friend Jim Brewer said this once. He said, "When I had a child, that's when I really understood murder." Really understood, like, my capacity to defend my child is like, I never understood, like, how could somebody kill somebody before? He goes, "Oh, now I get it. Now I get it." And, you know, that's real too. And that's also tribal, right? So it's not just your child. It's the child of everyone around you in your tribe.

• 22:38Joe Rogan?

  And then you think that you're being invaded by an oncoming tribe. And genetics and history dictates you have to be insanely ruthless to fight off that tribe. There's no other way for survival, which is really wild, right? Because those people have that same feeling towards their children. It's like that sting line, if the Russians love their children too. This episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley. Are you looking for a great tasting snack that is absolutely protein-packed? Paleo Valley's meat sticks are what you're after. Made with 100% grass-fed beef, pasture-raised chicken, pork, and venison,

• 23:19Joe Rogan?

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• 24:03Joe Rogan?

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• 24:22Speaker 01

  So that, that, that love that you talk about with regard to your wife, you know, I, I'd asked you, I asked you a little bit about that. It's like, I've talked to people who have, they can't understand how someone could be with the same woman indefinitely, let's say. These are people who usually haven't been able to establish that within their own life. And of course, the price you pay, assuming it's a price, for, for going all others is that, well, that, that, that's exactly it. It's a major sacrifice. And so, what do you think, what role do you think that love plays? Like, how do you conceptualize the relationship between that love that you described and

• 25:05Speaker 01

  that willingness to stay in a permanent relationship and that, and the willingness also to not pursue any other women? How do you, how do you understand? How does that make itself manifest in your life? I mean, I presume that you, I presume that, you know, you had opportunities of all sorts.

• 25:29Joe Rogan?

  I presume you do as well.

• 25:32Joe Rogan?

  In principle, I suppose, they don't seem to come to me in a sense. You're a hot professor-type character. Back in the day, guys like you would be banging their grad students. Not guys like you, but guys in your position, right? Yeah, yeah, well, there were guys that... Wasn't that always a thing? Yes. This is a fascinating aspect of academia. I seem to shut that off, pretty much, at the beginning, eh? Yes. Well, they seem to have completely stopped that. Like, if you go back to Feynman and Oppenheimer and famous, famous scientists were notoriously playboys. Mm-hmm. Which is really interesting, because it's like, these wild, innovative people were essentially like intellectual rock stars. Mm-hmm. Right? And then, somehow or another, that just got stopped.

• 26:13Joe Rogan?

  Like, if you were a professor in the 1960s, like, the girls would be wooing the professor. Mm-hmm. They would be excited. These 22-year-old graduate students would be so excited to be talking to this, like, incredibly famous intellectual. And they all, you know, were ladies' men. Like, Feynman was, like, famous for chasing skirts. That was, like, part of the thing. He does a lot of math and chases skirts. Mm-hmm. You know? That is a giant distraction to people that are trying to get things done in life. And it's also a distraction from your own personal development, I think. I think you could be with the wrong person and want to be with other people, and that

• 26:58Joe Rogan?

  makes sense. But really, what that is, is you should not be with that person anymore. Which is unfortunately the case. Like, there's a lot of guys who wind up with really hot women who are out of their fucking mind, and a lot of women who wind up with really hot men who are not what they thought they were gonna be. You know? And if you find yourself in this situation, where you're with this pathological person and you're trying to make it work, and you realize at a certain point in time, like, "I'm not going to make it work." Like, this is, you have to be able to just, like, jump ship. That's why people are hesitant to get married. That's what would be really dangerous about marriage. It's not like being with one person you really love being with. Like, I really love being with my wife. She's fun.

• 27:42Joe Rogan?

  Like, we go, we have date nights all the time. We have a lot of fun. You know? We really do. It's enjoyable.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  How did, how did you, why did you decide to set up date nights? How did you go about that? I mean, I know that's personal, but, and I don't want all the gory details, let's say.

• 27:58Joe Rogan?

  No, it's really simple. We just enjoy hanging out together. We have a lot of laughs. And so we just said, like, it's kind of important because I'm so fucking busy. That we schedule time that's just unavoidable. Like, this is what we're doing. We're gonna do this.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I do that with Tammy too.

• 28:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  We've done that for like thirty years.

• 28:15Joe Rogan?

  I think most, most married couples will tell you that that's important. Most married couples will tell you that that's, that's kind of the secret. And it's, the secret is like-

• 28:23Speaker 01

  It's also the best thing, as well as being the secret.

• 28:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's fun. It's fun. Like, if the person that you're with is fun. That's the real problem is that sometimes people just, they pick people that are hot. That's it. You know, hot and willing and nice enough. Nice enough to be around, then you deal with all the other crazy nonsense and you're, you're setting yourself up for, I've had many friends ruin their fucking lives. And then they go through divorces and you've said this best, that one of the things that women are very good at is reputation destruction. I have seen that happen. So imagine you are legally entangled with someone

• 29:05Joe Rogan?

  who at one point in time you loved intimately and now that person is trying to destroy every aspect of your life. And you have to pay for their lawyers. So you have to pay for the general of the army that's trying to destroy your kingdom. And I've seen this happen to many of my friends. And that is why people are afraid of marriage. That's why people are afraid of commitment. Cause the disastrous implications of like, what can happen if it goes sideways? Like, what can happen if you wind up hating each other? And what can happen if you just lie to yourself and you trick, like- Well, some of the hesitation that I had um for getting married is most of my friends

• 29:50Joe Rogan?

  that got married when I was young all went through horrible divorces. When I was on news radio, Dave Foley, Steven Root, and um Phil Hartman were all going through it, all going through it, in different levels of psychosis. Obviously, Phil Hartman's being the worst because his wife shot him, when he was leaving her, by the way. He decided to leave her and he tried to leave her a few times, and she shot him in his sleep, and then she shot herself. It's a horrible, horrible story. But Steven Root went through it and they, you know, they'd confide in me, and I'd be like, oh, Jesus Christ, the amount of money these women were trying to get from them when they knew that they couldn't afford this.

• 30:30Joe Rogan?

  So one of the dirty tricks that will happen uh with divorce lawyers, with um people that are on sitcoms, is when you get on a sitcom, if you're an actor and you get on a sitcom, it is the most stable job, the greatest job in show business for a lot of them, because you're gonna get a steady check, you're gonna do twenty-four, maybe twenty-six episodes a year, you're making more money than you've ever made in your whole life, but then you get divorced. So what happens is it gets set up where your ex-wife wants a percentage of what you're

• 31:11Joe Rogan?

  making at this very unrealistic level, where you're never gonna achieve this again. And for Dave Foley, it was so bad that at one point in time, I don't believe he was allowed to go back to Canada, I don't know if that's changed, but the the judge literally told him, when he told the judge, like, I don't have that kind of money anymore, I don't have the potential for earning. I was on a hit sitcom, like, not even a hit sitcom, but I was on a sitcom on NBC, paid a lot of money, and that was the only time I made that kind of money. The judge said to him, your obligation to pay has no relation to your ability to pay.

• 31:45Joe Rogan?

  That's Canadian judges for you. Just insane, you know.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Those are words you never, those are words you never want to hear even once in your life.

• 31:54Joe Rogan?

  I love him, so I was going through this pain, not like he was, but just like, oh my god. Oh my god. So these three people that I was very close to, and then most of the other people that I knew. You know, I knew so many people. Fortunately, my mother and my stepfather have a great relationship and they have for a long time. So I had that modeled. Like, they were always very close. And they didn't fight, which is really nice. It was really nice to have that as a model, you know, like where I realized, okay, it's not, everybody's not at each other's throats all the time. And some people actually do enjoy spending time together.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  You know, Tammy and I on, on the tour, she started to introduce me, um, two years ago. And to talk about some of the things we're doing, uh, in the family, some of our family business, talk about Peterson Academy, talk about essay. And so she'd go out on the stage and.

• 32:49Joe Rogan?

  Was that the first time she had ever gone on stage in front, you do enormous crowds.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, so, so first of all, she did that. And then we replaced the, the business discussion. Cause we were just doing an update about the family, you know, and so she'd do that. We replaced that with ads and then she started to talk. She, she talked about the rules, say, in 12 Rules for Life, or some of the religious things I've been dealing with lately. And she'd relate that to something in her own life. And then she does the Q and A at the end of the lecture. And, and part of that was just, she was along with me and part of that was Michaela was introducing me for a while and then had to go back to her work. And so we slotted Tammy in because it seemed like a good business decision. But one of the things we figured out very quickly that was really a shock to us was that.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  People really liked, especially the Q and As. When, because what people will offer their questions electronically on this platform called Slido, which is a very good platform for such things. And then Tammy would, they could upvote the questions and then Tammy would sort them and ask me questions kind of from the top down that were thematically relevant to the lecture that I had given. But we found very quickly that people really liked that because they hadn't seen a couple engage in civilized discussion ever. Seriously.

• 34:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of that out there.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  It was really shocking, Joe. Like, you know, I was shocked when I first started touring by how demoralized people were. Like, that really, that was really striking and painful to see that on such a mass scale. And then also to see how little encouragement it took to have a really major effect. I mean, there's a positive aspect to that too, but there's also a tragic aspect. It's like, you mean, you just need to have some encouragement and that was enough and you never got that, like even once? That's rough when you see that in thousands of people.

• 34:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  And it was the same thing. We found it was the same thing with regards to seeing a functional couple, at least even that model. Because, you know, Tammy asked me questions and she thinks about the questions and then sometimes she comments, but not that much. But she actually listens to the answers and she wants to hear the answer. And so, and that dynamic is being played out on stage and people found that very heartening. And while that shows you, well, you said, you know, yourself, and this is why I brought it up, because you had the example from your, from your stepfather and your mom.

• 35:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Of this long-term relationship that worked. I mean, how the hell do you orient yourself if you, if you haven't seen that anywhere?

• 35:28Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then you're, you consider relationships just like all the bad ones and like you're going to be burdened and locked into that. Did you ever see that video where Alec Baldwin and his wife are on the camp, on the red carpet and they're being interviewed and they're asking them questions and the wife starts talking and Alex chimes in about something and she said, "You're not talking, I'm talking. When I'm talking, you're not talking." On camera. And you watch this, you're like, yo. That's what everyone's scared of.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:03Joe Rogan?

  That's whatever.

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 36:04Joe Rogan?

  You wanna talk about like tyranny. The tyranny of being trapped in a relationship like that is like, ah. And sometimes one person is so overbearing that the other person just sort of submits to it, right? And then you're just like, I don't even wanna, I don't wanna fight, I don't wanna deal with this. I don't wanna deal with this. And so then you're just trapped and this person's insulting you and humiliating you publicly. That was the case with Phil Hartman. I got to see that. We would all go, like, we went to a party once and I remember she was talking about ex-boyfriends that she loves pickup trucks cuz her ex-boyfriends had pickup trucks and they would climb into the back of these pickup trucks. And I was like, what the fuck?

• 36:46Joe Rogan?

  But she was doing it on purpose to like make him squirm and make him uncomfortable. And she would say things like, talk about how he's old. Oh, he's old, he doesn't, you know, he doesn't like to do any, it was just, it was just public humiliation in front of friends. Where you're in this like arena where you, he can't say anything. He can't just go, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, why are you talking to me like that? Like, why are we doing this? He can't do that because he's public and he's out with us.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Maybe he should do it anyways.

• 37:14Joe Rogan?

  Probably should do it anyways.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably.

• 37:16Joe Rogan?

  We're all out and, you know, Phil was all about like appearances.

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 37:21Joe Rogan?

  One of the things that he was afraid of with getting married was that he was just starting to break into films and a lot of the films that he was doing were very like family-friendly films. And it was, it helped that he was a family man. You know, if he was.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Right, so he had, he had an act he had to sustain too.

• 37:37Joe Rogan?

  He had an image, right? And this was critical in Hollywood. Like, they had ideas of who you were. Okay, you're a family man. Okay, good, good, good. And you're the, and so if you have this radical change in your life where no longer you're a family man, and if you wanna be honest about it and you wanna say, I was in a toxic relationship and some of it was me and some of it was her and this is what happened, like, whoa. Now you're opening up the world to this big can of worms. Better to keep that can sealed. All your favorite NBA players are back and DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA, is the place to bet on NBA stars this season. Follow your favorite NBA stars, get excited about the biggest matchups and lock in on those buzzer beating

• 38:20Joe Rogan?

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• 39:10Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles, fast. Maybe you need extra cashiers or stockers, or maybe something more unique, like a lead elf, or an expert gift wrapper, or a Zamboni driver. Whoever you're looking for, whatever skills you need to power through the rest of the year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your search. Because you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. And because ZipRecruiter helps sort through thousands of resumes and applications, showing you the most qualified and interesting ones first. There's even an option for candidates

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• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's generally better not to have your fights in public, and it's certainly better. You know, I've been, I've been thinking about this commandment to honor your mother and father. And I've been thinking about what that means. I read this book called Angelus Ashes by Frank McCourt. And Frank had a really alcoholic father, like, like an Irish alcoholic father back in the forties. Oh, yeah. He drank every scent the family had and they, and they lived in terrible poverty.

• 40:45Joe Rogan?

  Wow, scary disease.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  And his sister died and like it was rough. But he said his father was off and sober in the morning and

• 40:54Speaker 01

  and he established a relationship with like good morning sober father and kinda put alcoholic drunken nighttime father in a different bin and he could, he could get the benefit of having a father in consequence of that. And that honoring, that's also something that you want to do within a marriage, right? Because your wife is your friend and your lover, but she's also your wife and, and you're her husband and that means that a part of keeping that marriage working is honor. And part of the honor is that you don't do that sort of thing in public.

• 41:28Joe Rogan?

  Right, right. You don't humiliate each other. You don't fight in public.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Well, that's also in some ways independent, in a way it's independent of who your wife or husband is. It's like, you know, you could imagine two people fighting in public and one of them or both of them really deserving to have that fight as people. But then to keep the marriage intact, you have to remember, well, this is my wife. She's not just my friend. She's not just someone I know. She's my wife and we shouldn't be doing primate dominance hierarchy maneuvering in public. We shouldn't be competing for power because that's going to destroy the marriage.

• 42:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  And so that's, that, that's part of that honoring, I think, is to, to remember the role and to keep it. Well, sacred is really right, sacrosanct.

• 42:15Joe Rogan?

  Here's another one. Don't ever insult each other, even though you want to. Like, you, you wanna like, be mean, sometimes, like, people get mean to you, you wanna be mean back. I don't do that with my friends, so I don't do that with anyone else. I don't wanna do that. That's why I don't do it online. I don't get involved in these like, hissy-pissy fits.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:38Joe Rogan?

  Online, particularly on Twitter. I just don't think.

• 42:41Speaker 01

  The prime place for such things.

• 42:42Joe Rogan?

  That's all it is. First of all, again, as someone who looks at everyone like a child, or like a baby, I, I don't, I'm not angry that people do that. I understand the appeal of it. If I was fifteen, and Twitter was around, I would be tweeting at every fucking celebrity, saying, "You're a loser", "Jump in front of a bus", I would say things just to try to get a reaction out of them. I think a lot of kids do. Um, I think a lot of people don't feel like they have a voice, and one way to be heard is to be insulting, and one way to hurt is to be negative. If you look at the majority of discourse on social media,

• 43:23Joe Rogan?

  in regards to hot button issues, it's disrespectful, it's contentious, it's shitty and insulting, and I've decided, like, over time in my life, to not do that. I don't wanna do that. I'm not interested. I'm not interested in that. I'm not interested in that kinda conflict. Like, I see real conflict all the time, as a, an MMA commentator. You know, I see the most violent legal conflict other than war, all the time. It's a, that's conflict. That's like, real conflict and resolution, and, you know, purposeful, agreed-upon conflict.

• 44:07Joe Rogan?

  Like regular, like back and forth and assault. Wouldn't it be better to figure out what you agree and disagree on and why and talk? Like, why can't we all figure out how to do that? That should be a discipline you learn at an early age. Most of the issues that people have, if the person comes at you insulting and aggressive, either that person is ignorant or they're playing a game, okay? And the game is to get your emotions up, to get you reactive, and to be reacting to them instead of acting. The game is like if someone's hyper aggressive in a fight. The game is to put you on the defensive. So that they don't, like, the best defense is a good offense. You learn that early on in fighting.

• 44:50Joe Rogan?

  So you learn that you can be very offensive and then the person never has a chance to get their game going. That's the case with conversations too. So this is like, there's a gamesmanship to this kind of communication, where it's not just communicating. It's communicating, but it's essentially intellectual one-upsmanship and sparring. You're sparring, you're scoring points, you're trying to dunk on each other. And I get that, I've done that before, I've engaged in it. It's never satisfying, it always feels gross. Even if you win, it's gross. Like, I've said this before, like, even like publicly, things that I've, I felt like I had to do, like the Carlos Mencia conflict that I had way back in 2007,

• 45:35Joe Rogan?

  where accused him of stealing material and it became this viral video and then a bunch of other comedians jumped in and we all agreed, there was a real problem. It was a real problem because he was very famous and he was being protected by these agencies who were profiting off of him being famous. They didn't want that train to stop. I still, to this day, wonder if I would ever do that again. Because the negativity that came my way from people that were fans of his was so, it's so overwhelming if you're paying attention to it. It's like, what did I open up? Like, ugh, even though I knew it was necessary. Like, what, and that is also why people are negative. Because they want, they want to stop you from engaging in conflict that's gonna hurt them. You know, so they try to hurt you as much as possible.

• 46:20Joe Rogan?

  So you're like hesitant to do it, I don't want to wade into those waters. Ugh, it's dangerous, filled with sharks.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Well, you could imagine, maybe, I think, and I think this is worth delving into in some depth, you could imagine that there are... There's various ways of attaining status, renown, reputation. Status isn't exactly the right word because reputation is better. Because you can have a reputation that you deserve. Right, and so people do work for reputation and all things considered, that's a good thing.

• 46:55Joe Rogan?

  Earned reputation is the best.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Earned reputation, earned valid reputation.

• 46:59Joe Rogan?

  Or someone's truly unique, or they're Jordan, that guy. That's a unique human being and that's a real reputation.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Right, right, okay.

• 47:05Joe Rogan?

  That's what people want.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Right, right, and it's also, there isn't anything more valuable that you can have than that. Not even close. This is why, by the way, this is very cool. It's a bit of an aside, but it makes, it's worth bringing up. In the Gospels, Christ tells people to store up treasure in heaven where it doesn't rust, where the thieves can't steal it. That's reputational treasure.

• 47:28Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  Right, so if you, so the idea is that if you conduct yourself impeccably, you'll develop a storehouse of reputation that will withstand all catastrophe. Nothing can, nothing, there's no place you can put your wealth that's more effective than that. It's the least violatable place and that's right, it's right.

• 47:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  And so, but the problem is, and this is a really tricky problem and you're touching on it, is that the reputation game can be gamed. Okay, so when your reputation rises, your serotonin levels rise. And that makes you less sensitive to negative emotion and more sensitive to positive emotion. So that's a really good deal.

• 48:10Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  And what that also means is that there's a high psychological benefit to status increase, reputational increase, and a real cost to reputational decrease. That's partly why people don't like losing face, for example. Because their emotions dysregulate. Okay, so now the best way to play that game is to establish a genuine reputation. And the best way to do that, you've done this, by the way. I figured out this year on my lectures that... I'm always trying to answer a question on stage, so that's a quest. And I'm bringing the audience along on a quest. And it's a real quest because I'm actually trying to figure something out and I do that in real time. And that's a very different game.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  That's a very different conversational game than the status battle game.

• 48:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  Because I could come on here. I don't know if it would work, but I could come on here and I could try to show that I was smarter than Joe Rogan. Now, I've watched you and that's a very difficult thing to pull off, but hypothetically, that could be my aim and I could play gotcha questions and I could lead you into places.

• 49:14Joe Rogan?

  The problem is that wouldn't work because I'm willing to accept that you're smarter than me. First of all, I talk to a lot of people that are smarter than me and I like it. It's enjoyable. I don't ever feel uncomfortable talking to people that are smarter than me.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:29Joe Rogan?

  I want to know some things that they can tell me on certain things. I want to educate myself. I want to be, I want to see how their mind works. I want to be blown away. I don't want to compete with them intellectually. There's times in my life where I would have fallen into that trap.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:45Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a stupid trap though.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's also what's made you popular and a force for good is that you are on a quest. And that quest, the consequence of that quest, if undertaken properly, is reputational enhancement. And people who can't or won't do that, they default to power games. And the part of the, and that's a very, that's, that's the default to power.

• 50:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  But it's worsened with social media.

• 50:12Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Because if you're, if, if, if you meet someone and they're playing a power game with you, you can just decide not to have anything to do with them anymore. Or you can put a stop to it if you need to. But on social media, you can't because they're distant from you and they're often also anonymous. And so they can play power games to enhance their reputational status falsely with no consequences. And the social media is rife with that and it's really a problem. Like, I think that virtualization has enabled the psychopaths.

• 50:44Joe Rogan?

  Without a doubt.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, well.

• 50:46Joe Rogan?

  Without a doubt.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  That's a terrible thing because the psychopathic types, they're always the death of everything. Like, I'm seeing this come up on the right now. So imagine, imagine this, I've been working on a new, a new theory of political psychopathology, and I like it quite a lot.

• 51:01Joe Rogan?

  Is this where the term "the woke right" comes in?

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, Lindsey is pointing at that, but he hasn't got, he hasn't got the diagnosis exactly right. So, it isn't woke, that's not the issue. It's not exactly, he's one level-

• 51:14Joe Rogan?

  I think what they're talking about is like similar types of behavior.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  He is talking about that. Yeah, no, what he's pointing-

• 51:19Joe Rogan?

  Woke just lets you clarify in your head, "Oh, it's like that."

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the problem is-

• 51:24Joe Rogan?

  It's like Antifa.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. But the problem is, is that that argument is predicated on the claim that the ideas are the problem, like the woke ideas, for example, on the right or the left, but that's not the problem. The problem is that 4% to 5% of the population, something like that, is Cluster B, that's the DSM-5 terms, histrionic, narcissistic, antisocial, psychopathic, or they have, and they have dark tetrad traits, they're Machiavellian, they're sadistic. That's about 4%. Okay, so the question is, how do these people maneuver? And the answer is, they go to where the power is,

• 52:07Speaker 01

  and they adopt those ideas, and they put themselves even on the forefront of that. But the ideas are completely irrelevant.

• 52:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  All they're doing is, they're the Pharisees, they're the modern version of the Pharisees, they're the people who use God's name in vain, right, as they proclaim moral virtue.

• 52:22Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Doesn't matter whether it's right or left, or Christian, or Jewish, or Islam. They invade the idea space, and then they use that, those ideas as false weapons to advance their narcissistic advantage.

• 52:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 52:36Speaker 01

  And so then you have the problem, and the right's gonna face this more and more particularly, because the left had to face it when they were in powers.

• 52:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  How do you identify the psychopathic parasites, 4% of the population, who are clothed in your clothing and waving your flags?

• 52:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  But who are, who are only in it for narcissistic benefit? You know, the people who studied the dark triad, these were people who originally studied psychopaths, and they moved into ordinary personalities, so to speak, on the fringes. They showed that the non-criminal psychopaths, so the fringe cases, are Machiavellian. They use their language to manipulate. They're narcissistic. They want unearned reputation, that's what a narcissist wants. And they're psychopathic, which makes them predators or parasites, okay? That's pretty bad, those three things. But they had to expand the nomenclature after a while because they found that they were also sadistic,

• 53:34Speaker 01

  which implied that if you're Machiavellian and narcissistic and psychopathic, you develop a sufficiently bad view of your fellow man that their undeserved pain is a source of pleasure to you. And that's, that's what's being enabled online.

• 53:51Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  See, because we've evolved real specific mechanisms to keep such things under control in face-to-face interaction. Lack of anonymity, for example, within a community. Psychopaths in the real world, they wander. They have to move from place to place because people don't figure out who they are. And they're held responsible. They're particularly held responsible by men. But online, they escape from that, they escape from that protective, they escape from that system of constraints and they have free rein. And they can find other people like them very rapidly. And they can gang together. And so this is like, I can really see this starting to happen on the right. Like, I've been tracking psychopathic behavior on the right for probably four years, something like that.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Especially on the antisemitic side, because that's really where it reared its head first. And

• 54:43Joe Rogan?

  Why is that?

• 54:45Speaker 01

  There's nothing more annoying than a successful minority. Right. Now, that's part of it, and I, I'm gonna, here, I might as well get myself in trouble right away, too.

• 54:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for sure. This is a very real subject.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a, yeah, it's a real terrible subject.

• 55:00Joe Rogan?

  It's interesting, because if you don't criticize it enough, you're compromised. If you, if you criticize, you, you know, it's like,

• 55:08Joe Rogan?

  when it comes to antisemitism, like, it's one of those things where you can't separate.

• 55:18Joe Rogan?

  It's a religion and it's also a race and it's also a government. That's where things get weird.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 55:28Joe Rogan?

  And then there's also the concept of intelligence agencies and compromise that also gets attached to it, the manipulation of world markets and money and there's a lot to unpack. And then there's regular Jewish people. Have nothing to do with that.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Well, the Jews too are, they're very successful.

• 55:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  And so what you would expect from a purely statistical point of view is you'd expect them to be overrepresented at the extremes.

• 55:50Joe Rogan?

  They're also a walled garden, right?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Meaning?

• 55:53Joe Rogan?

  Meaning it's very difficult to join. They don't proselytize. They don't try to get you to join. And they're all very tightly knit. They call themselves the Klan. They're all like locked in, the Klan, you know, Jewish Klan, not, not KKK. The problem with that term has been compromised by the Ku Klux Klan, you know, but I mean it as terms of tribe.

• 56:13Speaker 01

  Or community.

• 56:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, community. They're very tight knit in that regard. You know, they stick together. And if you understand the history, obviously, of Nazi Germany and of persecution in Eastern Europe, like, yeah, you have to. Yeah, of course.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, all these complex things are multi-dimensional. I mean, you're, you're, I, I watched your whole conversation with Douglas and I thought you guys did a very credible job, all three of you, of navigating unbelievably choppy waters. So that's the first thing I'd like to say because one of the things I was trying to figure out when I was watching that is, do I think I could have done a better job of any of you? And I certainly didn't walk away from it with that idea in mind. But then underneath all that, I thought there's really, there's a really unbelievably tricky problem here and I think that's why it's made it, it poked up into, well, you also set that conversation up, but it poked up and made itself manifest in that conversation.

• 57:11Speaker 01

  And the issue is, how do you identify?

• 57:14Speaker 05

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• 57:44Joe Rogan?

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• 58:27Joe Rogan?

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• 58:42Speaker 01

  The psychopathic pretenders, and it's even worse now. And then make a barrier, right? Now, the right was calling for the left to do that for decades. And they didn't, and they couldn't. And the left is not good at drawing barriers, partly temperamentally. The right is somewhat better, but there's no shortage of monstrosity there. And so then the question is, how do you draw the line? And that's kind of what I was... Because I've been watching these right-wing... They're not right-wing. These psychopathic types manipulate the edge of the conservative movement for their own gain. And a lot of that's cloaked in anti-Semitic guise. There's plenty of anti-Semitism on the left, too, by the way. So it's not unique to the right.

• 59:27Joe Rogan?

  Particularly now.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Yes, particularly now. And so, you know, you've let your curiosity guide you, your curiosity and your desire for knowledge, this quest. You've let that guide you as a podcaster. And I'm, by the way, I'm trying to work through exactly the same sort of thing. How do you know? Given your radical increase in stature over the last 10 years, how do you know when your curiosity and even your skepticism about the fact that things aren't the way that people say they are, because that's certainly been demonstrated in the last 10 years, how do you, how should anyone decide what guardrails to put up? Like, what do you look for?

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Do you have a conceptual system worked out for that?

• 1:00:16Joe Rogan?

  And what, what, what do you mean? In what way?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Well...

• 1:00:20Joe Rogan?

  How do I look for in terms of people to talk to?

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you have this insanely immense platform, and you're inviting people onto it, and, you know, you said to Douglas, and I know this to be true, that you're not really thinking about the outcome exactly, you're thinking about, this is an interesting person to talk to, and I'd like to go on that quest. But then you have the additional conundrum, we're trying to work this out in the Daily Wire side of things, too, not to say that that's exactly the same situation. It's like, once you gain in reach and authority, then... How do you know that? How do you take great care that the people you're talking to aren't, what would you

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  say, eliciting or feeding a subculture? Yeah, that's right. That, that hasn't got the proper aims.

• 1:01:17Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Like, I guess the legacy media probably worked that out by having people, mediators, right? And guests, and that was also back when we could rely on the structures of authority in some sense to filter. And now we're in this helter-skelter world where everything is up for grabs.

• 1:01:39Joe Rogan?

  The legacy media is the worst at that now.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:01:41Joe Rogan?

  They're the worst.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  Which is fascinating. You know, it really is. It's really fascinating when you... Lose faith in a New York Times piece. You know, it's like you, you go like, well, this is bullshit.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Joe Rogan?

  I know this, I know what they're doing.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Joe Rogan?

  They're just, this is editorial bullshit. And that didn't used to be the case, I don't think.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  No, it didn't.

• 1:02:03Joe Rogan?

  But then I go back to like what I learned about the Woodward Bernstein Nixon thing at Watergate. That was all essentially an intelligence operation. Have you ever looked into that?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Some.

• 1:02:14Joe Rogan?

  Bill Murray on the podcast and Bill Murray said one of the wildest things. He read the first five pages of Bob Woodward's biography on John Belushi, Wired.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:23Joe Rogan?

  Read the first five pages, like, he goes, oh, my God, they framed Nixon.

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  Oh, really? Wow.

• 1:02:29Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, no kidding.

• 1:02:32Joe Rogan?

  What they wrote about my friend was so not true. It was so wildly off. He said John Belushi was a lightweight. John Belushi would have a couple of drinks and he'd be fucked up. He wasn't like a big partier. That time he did that speedball is probably the only time he ever did it in his life. But Woodward had him painted as this maniacal, off the rails, just drug-addled monster. And he knew that to not be true. He was very close to Belushi for a long time. And so he was like, oh, my God, they framed Nixon. Then when I told him the whole story, you know, what Tucker Carlson had told me about Woodward being an intelligence asset. And then that was his first job ever as a journalist was Watergate. And that those FBI guys that were involved in it and the break in and.

• 1:03:16Joe Rogan?

  The whole thing was tried, they tried to get Nixon out of there, the most popular president in the history of the country in terms of the vote. And they were successful. They got him out of there and it's probably becau- or likely because Nixon was very concerned with who killed Kennedy. And he wanted to find out and he wanted to get that information out and apparently he had been talking about it. I know who did it and he was, you know, he didn't want it happening to him, obviously. And he knew it could. If you're a president, you know, a couple of guys ago, you know, just.

• 1:03:49Joe Rogan?

  Most, one of the most popular presidents, at least posthumously popular presidents, I know he was very polarizing while he was in office, but was shot in the head in the middle of Dallas and you think that the government might have had something to do with it. Like, that could, that could fuck with your head, obviously.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, there, and there's many things like that. I mean, you saw the government website that came up two days ago about COVID?

• 1:04:13Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:04:15Joe Rogan?

  Wild, wild to see that.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  That's, that's for sure. What are you supposed to do with that?

• 1:04:21Joe Rogan?

  All the things that have, would have gotten you fired if you were a professor and you said them four years ago? You would have 100% got fired for espousing any of these ideas that turned out to be true. You would have gotten kicked off of YouTube. You would have gotten, you know, there was a lot, there was a lot going on there. You know, which is, I, I feel so fortunate that right at the height of COVID was also when I had gone over to Spotify. Spotify is a Swedish company. They're, it's different. They're different. They don't, they're much more rational and they're not overwhelmed by this identity politics shit and they, they aren't overwhelmed by our

• 1:05:05Joe Rogan?

  weird political binary system of good guy, bad guy, depending on which side you're on. And they were like, what are you talking about? Like, this is cra- we don't, we don't censor our rappers.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  The Swedes also didn't lock down.

• 1:05:19Joe Rogan?

  Yes, they didn't lock down. They were also like, we don't censor our rappers. Like, we don't tell, like, the rap lyrics, some of my favorite rap lyrics are horrendous. But it's just like my di- my favorite movies are Tarantino movies. The dialogue is horrendous. It doesn't mean that these are horrendous people that are putting together this. Tarantino's a wonderful guy. He's fun to be around. He's great. I've had dinner with him, brought him to the comedy club. He's great. He's not a bad person, but he is an artist and he's creating this thing. And this thing is gonna show you aspects of humanity that you know to be true, but they're horrific.

• 1:05:58Joe Rogan?

  That's the same with rap lyrics. It's the same with a lot of things. And Spotify's position was, we're not censoring. That's not, we're, we're in the business of like promoting art. Like, we sell art and we're not interested in censoring art, essentially. And turns out luckily, we were all right. We were all correct, you know? And now the government shows it on their fucking website. Which is crazy. Have you seen it, Jamie? Yeah. Pull it up, cuz it's bananas.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:29Joe Rogan?

  And, look at this. Lab leak.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. I know, I know.

• 1:06:33Joe Rogan?

  By the way.

• 1:06:38Joe Rogan?

  You know, I know that he would bring up the vaccines when he was on his rallies and people would boo.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:45Joe Rogan?

  When he was on the campaign trail. People would boo, and I think he was like confused by that.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:49Joe Rogan?

  I think he's a little...

• 1:06:52Joe Rogan?

  I don't wanna say he's out of touch, but there's too many things for him to be thinking about. For him to be paying attention to what people really think about the vaccines and vaccine injuries and mandates and just the psychological warfare that was played on the American people. You remember that very famous White House post that they made? For the vaccinated, you've done your job, or for the unvaccinated, you're looking forward to a winter of severe illness and death?

• 1:07:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:20Joe Rogan?

  And the hospitals that you will overwhelm? Like, that was the White House telling you something when it was in Omicron by that point, which was like a cold. Like, it was crazy. The deaths had dropped off radically. But they were so in bed with the pharmaceutical companies that they were like, "You gotta do it. You gotta get vaccinated. If you don't, you're looking forward to death and severe illness." Like, imagine. This is... You're not basing this on real statistics. You're not basing this on science. You're just basing this on this control, this fear element that you're trying to impose upon people.

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's, that's an interesting point there too, that issue of control and fear. You know, I started this... I was part of a group that started this organization in the UK called the Alliance for Responsible Citizenship. We had our second convention in November, which went very nicely, by the way.

• 1:08:16Joe Rogan?

  So you're doing like a positive counter to the World Economic Forum?

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we have some rules. And one rule is you don't use force or fear, right? Use invitation. So can I tell you a story about that?

• 1:08:27Joe Rogan?

  Please do, please do.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Okay, so I've been touring about this new book of mine, right? We Who Wrestle with God. And it's, I've been lecturing about lots of the things I know, but I've been using biblical stories mostly to provide an analytical frame, because that's what stories do. They provide a frame. And there's a great story in the continuing Exodus story, the story of Moses and the Israelites, where Moses has led his people away from the tyrant and away from their own slavery, because there's a dynamic in that story between those two things. No tyrants without slaves. Or you might say, no tyrants without willing slaves. And so

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  the Israelites have to get away from the tyrant, but then it's across the Red Sea of chaos and blood and into the desert for 40 years. You don't escape from the tyrant if you're a slave without paying a price, and maybe for three generations. It's rough. So Moses is trying to get these people to stop being slaves and to take responsibility, so they don't need a tyrant. And so he's kind of got there, and they're on the edge of the promised land, right? And so they're almost at the end of their voyage, and they run out of water. They're still in the desert. They run out of water, and they get all whiny and bitchy about the fact that they had to go across the desert, and that it was way better under the tyrant, and that Moses is nothing but a corrupt patriarch, and he's

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  only power mad. And they foment some rebellion. And anyways, it's a pretty ugly situation. And the Israelites go to Moses, and they say, look, we're really starving. We're thirsting for water. We're gonna die. Do you think you can have a chat with God, see if he'll do something about this? And God tells Moses,

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  To go to some rocks in the desert and to ask them to bring water forth. And so, he goes with his people to these rocks and instead of asking, he takes this staff of his. The staff is a really important thing. It's like your staff if you have an organization, same derivation. But it's also the magic wand of Gandalf, it's the flag you plant in new territory, it's the tree of life, it's the living tradition that has a spirit inside it and that's a serpent and that's the serpent that eats all the serpents of the Egyptian tyrants, magic magicians. That's the staff. It's as raw of his authority.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  And he, instead of asking the rocks, he hits them twice with the staff, so he forces them. And God tells him that in consequence of that, number one, he's going to die, and number two, he's not going to get to the promised land. Right, right, right. So there's this insistence, it's really interesting. Well, it's a crucial insistence and it's very important in this time, I think, to understand what this means. So Moses is a leader, he's the archetypal leader. And he realizes his responsibility in the encounter with the burning bush, which is something that attracts his attention, that he takes with great seriousness, and that transforms him. And so then he becomes the leader who stands up against the tyrant and frees the slaves and takes them through chaos into the desert.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  And his temptation as leader is to use force. So when he's a young man, for example, he kills a Egyptian aristocrat who was tormenting a Hebrew slave, and that's why he has to leave Egypt. He's tempted by power, because he's a leader. And then at the end, even though he's done all these things, he's he's been an upstanding man and gone beyond his call of duty. And he's right at the point where he attains victory, right, to enter the promised land. And he uses force, once. When God tells him to use invitation, to use his words, the logos, to use words, to use invitation. And that's enough so that he's dead. So is his brother Aaron, that's his political arm.

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  And he doesn't enter the promised land. And then in the gospels, of course, Christ forgives power altogether. The temptation in the desert, one of the three temptations is the temptation for use of power. So one of the things that maybe we could conclude from all this, given the context of what you said, is that you can tell the tyrants, they use fear and compulsion. And they don't use invitation. So one of the rules we put together for ARC was invitation only. Play, we're gonna do this playfully.

• 1:12:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  And we're not going to use force or fear, ever. You have to use invitation. And so I, I don't know what you think about that, is a distinguished, imagine it's a distinguishing, it's the distinguishing characteristic between the wannabe tyrants and the true leaders. The true leaders say, here's an offer. Would you accept this of your own free will? And the tyrants say, the apocalypse is coming. And everything, and we are allowed to do everything to forestall it.

• 1:13:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Right, including control you and everything that you do.

• 1:13:26Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Joe Rogan?

  Right. And that's how they get people to fall in line. They fall in line through fear.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Well, fear and force. It's like also, you know, you have to do this because the apocalypse is looming, which is always in a way true.

• 1:13:41Joe Rogan?

  Always.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  There's always, well, there's always an apocalypse of one form or another looming. The question is, what do you do about it?

• 1:13:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, depending on where you live. Anywhere in the world right now, right? You're, you might be experiencing the apocalypse right now if you live in Gaza.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Joe Rogan?

  You might be experiencing the apocalypse right now if you're in Yemen, if you're a Houthi, right?

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  The, the end of the world is always coming. Right, and for you, for me, for...

• 1:14:06Joe Rogan?

  For everybody.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, so, so you can always look into the future and conjure up an apocalyptic scenario, and maybe even that in itself isn't a sin, although I think it is. There's another, but if you then turn to fear and compulsion as your means of governance, then you're a tyrant. I don't care what your excuse is. It has to be invitational.

• 1:14:27Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. That's when it gets scary, when you see governments telling people that they have to fall in line, or these are horrible consequences for you not agreeing to what we're saying.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and then if you don't do this, you're a part of the problem.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. Well, and if the apocalypse that's generated in that way is of sufficient magnitude, there's no limit to the amount of power that can be exerted.

• 1:14:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  Because obviously, the rationale is there.

• 1:14:52Joe Rogan?

  They have to do it, right? Like, this is the rationale to stop Trump, right? You're trying to stop Hitler.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Right, right, well...

• 1:14:58Joe Rogan?

  No matter what. Circumvent the First Amendment, use the law, use lawfare.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Use whatever.

• 1:15:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:04Speaker 01

  Use whatever. This is one of the things that worries me about Canada at the moment. Now, I know when we talked a couple of weeks ago, I expressed my concern about what was happening in Canada.

• 1:15:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, doesn't look good.

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  Well, I read Carney's book, Values. I read it, twice, and I understood it. And Carney says in that book, well, he says, he's, he's an advocate of centralized planning, ESG. He was a huge ESG advocate. He organized many large corporations to go down this central planning governance route because the market wasn't pricing everything properly, and so central planners had to step in. And BlackRock and Vanguard, and places like that, were big parts of that. Don't know if they were directly affected by Carney, but it's the same thing, and they've stepped away from that. And he's a big DEI advocate, and he's also a net zero advocate.

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  And Carney says in his book, this is a good example of this, and I think also a good example of this kind of narcissism that we talked about earlier. Every single financial decision that every individual or organization makes has to prioritize decarbonization above all else. Or else, and there will be many, he doesn't say casualties, but he implies that. There'll be many, there'll be many who pay a price along the way, but it's necessary. You know, because you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. And then he says seventy-five percent of the world's fossil fuels have to stay in the ground. And this is who Canadians are seriously thinking about electing.

• 1:16:34Joe Rogan?

  Why does he say the fossil fuels have to stay in the ground?

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Too much carbon.

• 1:16:39Joe Rogan?

  You know, you know, the real problem with that is the same problem with the COVID narrative. Is that they don't allow any dissent. They don't allow any data that conflicts with the narrative. And they don't want to look at any possible. Like, both of them are complicated. They're not similar in a lot, but there are because they're top-down tyrannical tools.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  Using fear and compulsion.

• 1:17:08Joe Rogan?

  So they did, during the COVID times, nobody wanted to look at any alternative treatments. They didn't want to look at

• 1:17:16Joe Rogan?

  health, metabolic health, they didn't want to look at any factors other than vaccination and compliance. With carbon, no one wants to look at, I'm sure you saw that Washington Post study of the last, was it fifty million years, the graph that shows the temperature of Earth? Have you seen it? We're in a cooling period. And that was always what, I mean, during the nineteen seventies, Leonard Nimoy, when he had that In Search of Show. One of the things that they covered was that we are at the verge of an ice age. And how terrifying an ice age is.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the, the conclusion you draw about climate and carbon dioxide is entirely dependent on where you put the origin point of your graph. So if you go back a hundred and fifty years ago, carbon dioxide has increased. If you go back five hundred million years ago, which is quite a lot longer. We're in a drought, like a serious carbon dioxide drought.

• 1:18:08Joe Rogan?

  Right, and also, carbon dioxide is the fuel of plants.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Yes, they, it turns out that they like it. Well, you know, the, you know, the global greening data. Well, when.

• 1:18:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, say it, so people know it.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Well, you know, one of the things I learned as a scientist was that. There's usually an explanation or two that accounts for a phenomenon so completely that almost everything else is noise. Like the Maha movement, Make America Healthy Again. The fundamental issue is insulin resistance. Like, that's the fundamental plague of, say, North America. And everything else is noise. It's not unimportant noise, but insulin resistance is the major contributor. On the climate side, when I look at the data, the thing that leaps out for me is greening. It's like, the planet is 20% greener than it was 30 years ago. Okay, 20%?

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  This is NASA data, I'm not inventing this.

• 1:19:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Okay, and then the next question, you think, oh, 20%? If 20% of the plants had vanished, you'd be sure we'd heard about that.

• 1:19:14Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Okay, so, and agricultural outputs got up 13%. Now, whether all that additional carbon dioxide is a function of human activity, that's still debatable, doesn't matter. There is an association between the carbon dioxide rise and the plant propagation. Okay, it's even more particular than that. Because a lot of the greening has occurred in semi-arid areas, so areas around deserts. And the reason for that is that if there's more carbon dioxide, the plants can close their breathing pores more, and they don't lose water. And so not only is there 20% more vegetation, which is a lot, I think it's twice the area of the United States that's greened.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  That's a lot of green, and where our agricultural production is more effective. And the places that have greened were the very places that the deserts were supposed to expand into.

• 1:20:08Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  And so, right, because they've greened, they've shrunk, not grown. Now, you know, you could say, well, that rate of change has its problems, and, you know, rates of change have their problems. But I don't see another data point that's anywhere near as stunning as that.

• 1:20:25Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a really important point, what you said, that if we lost 20% of the plants, people would be freaking out.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  Oh, my god. Oh, my god. Well, and rightly so.

• 1:20:32Joe Rogan?

  Rightly so. But yet, it's not even discussed. Because, again, it's one of those things that invades the narrative, right? It's one of those pesky facts, those pesky truths, that gets in the way of the thing that you're saying, well, the apocalypse is coming.

• 1:20:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's the thing about the narrative, is like, okay, so now, we talked about the psychopaths who... Manipulate belief systems for their own advantage, right? The people who use God's name in vain, the Pharisees who want to dress in religious clothing and obtain status in consequence, they're Christ's number one enemies in the Gospels, by the way, those people. They're the ones who conspire to crucify Him, right? The religious pretenders. So this has been going on for a very long period of time. So the climate apocalypse narrative is perfectly situated to, what would you say?

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  To, to serve the perspect, to serve the purposes of the narcissists, the Machiavellians, the psychopaths and the sadists. Because it's a infinitely expanding existential threat that can be used as an excuse for anything. Yes. Right? And it also provides a perfect cloak for any amount of power maneuvering. It's like, I want to make your showerheads put out a needle spray so that you're cold all the time while you have a shower, while you're doing something you do every day that could otherwise be highly enjoyable. Why do I get to invade your life to that degree? Well, because the planet's at stake, Joe. And who are you to privilege your shower comfort, something that trivial, over the

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  fate of the entire planet? Well, you can use that argument at every single level. You know, Trump came out with this executive statement just a few days ago about showerheads. And everybody kind of laughed about that. And I thought, no, he has an eye for petty tyranny, right? For petty tyranny. And there, there's very little that's more petty than, well, I think the showerhead example's a perfect one. And then you also think, look, if they're willing to control your life at that level of detail, what are they not willing to control? It's like, you're concerned about my showerheads? Like, we're out of water? Which we're not, at all? So what won't you control? So you think, well, the psychopaths are edge cases. They'll move wherever the power is.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  They find a narrative that can be used to strike fear in the hearts of people and to justify compulsion. They ally themselves with that belief claim. And then they ratchet themselves up status hierarchies without any true reputational validity riding on that edge of fear and power. Right, right. I wrote an article, it hasn't been published yet, in The Telegraph, because I got hell a lot after one of our podcasts. You may know this, but...

• 1:23:27Joe Rogan?

  The climate change stuff.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  That's right. The whole bloody transcript was sent to the college as an indication that I was out of my wheelhouse. You know, and maybe I stepped a bit out of my wheelhouse when we had that discussion because I'm not a climate scientist, whatever the hell that is, by the way, because you have to know a lot to be a climate scientist and an economist on top of that. So today I'm talking about something that's a lot more psychological. The climate apocalypse narrative is a social contagion that's driven by power-mad psychopaths who are hell-bent on using fear and compulsion to make sure everyone steps in line so that they can continue with their acquisition of undeserved power.

• 1:24:07Joe Rogan?

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• 1:26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's the advantage of using fear and compulsion, right? It's like, well, I have to go along with this because my leaders, who had built up a certain degree of credibility, are telling me that, you know, the apocalypse is nigh. And who am I to, well, first of all, question? Because, God, there's a hard thing to figure out. You know, what's the global effect of human activity on the climate for the next 100 years? Well, good luck figuring that out. This is why I'm making it more psychological this time. It's like... The climate fluctuates and for complex reasons, but that doesn't mean that you get to look 100 years into the future and you get to conjure up an apocalyptic narrative and you get to say, "We're the only people that can save you," and you get to say, "You

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  have to change every single thing you do in your life and prioritize our concern above all else, including even the well-being of your own children," or the economic future of the Africans, for example, who don't get to use fossil fuels, right? You don't get to do that. You don't get to do that using fear and compulsion.

• 1:27:20Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, it's being done by people who have been wrong about everything, every step of the way, every step of the way.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, then they just play a sleight of hand game there, though. Okay, we got the timeframe wrong, Joe. It's not 20 years. The emergency is 40 years.

• 1:27:32Joe Rogan?

  But it's not even just that. It's not even just climate change. It's basically everything: public health, agriculture, you name it.

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:38Joe Rogan?

  Everything.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that sets us-

• 1:27:40Joe Rogan?

  Every single thing, the water supply.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  That sets us back into this conundrum that you and Douglas and Dave were addressing. It's like, okay, two conundrums, like, three. How do you pursue your interest in a landscape that's been shorn of reliable expert input? Right? Who do you rely on?

• 1:27:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  Okay? If you don't know who to rely on, like, how do you keep the bloody psychopaths at bay?

• 1:28:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  You know, and the conspiracy theorist mongers and the people who aren't trying to discover the truth, but who are using the conspiratorial edge, let's say.

• 1:28:13Joe Rogan?

  The grippers.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, the grippers, for that matter, right? These are people who are clearly playing power games for their own benefit and they're spinning up these conspiratorial narratives and riding on them and occupying them in this parasitical manner. There's gonna be a huge, this is a huge problem already on the right-wing side. I don't, you know, I don't even know what the hell that is anymore, because I don't know what the left is and I don't know what the right is, but-

• 1:28:39Joe Rogan?

  We need to claim the center.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's also what we're trying to do with ARC. It's like, what is the center? Right? The center's a kind of a-

• 1:28:47Joe Rogan?

  The center's where we can all meet up.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Well-

• 1:28:49Joe Rogan?

  And I think that's doable.

• 1:28:51Speaker 01

  Well, let's specify it even more.

• 1:28:53Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  The center is a place you'd go if you were invited. Right, right, exactly. Well, and that also ties back into this idea of play. You know, like Piaget figured this out when he was watching little kids. So if a little boy wants to play house with a little girl, which is generally a good idea. If you want to play house with a woman at some point in your life, you better get that right. It's a very serious game. What's the first rule? She has to want to play. Right, what's the second rule? You have to play with her in a manner that makes her want to play with you again. Right? I've been thinking about this a lot in terms of what constitutes objective standards of morality. You know how Sam Harris? Sam Harris was obsessed with malevolence. And he wanted to ground morality in objective science

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  because he thought that would give us like a firm standing place. But he went down the wrong scientific rabbit hole, I think. I think if you understand this relationship with play and iteration, then you have the core of morality. So, so, and Piaget, by the way, this is part of, what would you say? This is the larger, this is the philosophical edge of his theory. This is actually what he's trying to accomplish. How do you decide if an arrangement is good versus bad or good versus evil? Well, Piaget went to children to find that out. It's like, okay, you want to set up a game. Why? Well, game is the first social, it's the foundation of social interaction. Right? Play a game with one other people, one other person?

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  And then maybe you can play a game with a bunch of people? And then you can play a game with one person or a bunch of people across a long period of time? And then you could do it in a way that improves. Okay, so now, so what are the rules? If you're a little boy, she has to want to play. And then you have to play with her in a way so that she wants to play with you again. If you do that, then you have a friend. And that iterates now, so you can imagine that there's a structure of voluntary play that's really quite stringent. But this is what you do on your podcast. Seriously, and that's why it's so attractive to people. You know, and that's the core of what you might call objective morality. It's like there's, there's a very limited number of ways to play, to offer a game that someone else wants to play. And then there's a very limited number of ways

• 1:31:07Speaker 01

  to play that game so that they want to keep playing with you. And then you could, if you add that additional constraint of improvement across the games, you've got the straight and narrow path. Right, and then it's marked by, we're really trying to do this at ARC.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  We want to offer a vision that people want to accept, or even thrilled to accept, because that's even better, right? A game that you'd be thrilled to play. So, one of the things we're doing on the energy side, I'm going to an event with Alex Epstein here in two days, talk to energy executives about this. You know, well, what kind of world do you want to see? Well, how about a world where there's so much energy that poor people can afford it? How'd that be for a vision? Like, have you got a problem with that? Well, poor people can't have energy, because that'll destroy the planet. It's like, no, poor people can't have that energy, because you'd have to let go of the game that you're playing as a narcissistic psychopath that's elevating your status inappropriately,

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  and you're perfectly willing to sacrifice the world's poor to continue your grip on power. How about that for a psychological interpretation?

• 1:32:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:32:16Speaker 01

  And how about this as an alternative? Why don't we do everything we can to drive energy costs down to the lowest degree that's sustainable, like in a market economy, and make energy available to everyone so that we eradicate absolute poverty? Why wouldn't the left line up again around that? Because the left hypothetically serves the poor. It's like, nothing serves the poor better than an ethos first. We gotta get that right, because we're also interested in getting the story right. But after that, on the material side, there's nothing more important than cheap energy.

• 1:32:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, but can I stop you for a second there? I don't think people on the left are getting that message. I don't think they're hearing that this is exactly what third world countries need, is a reliable source of energy and industry to elevate themselves out of poverty.

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  They're not.

• 1:33:02Joe Rogan?

  They're not getting that. But it's not the problem of the people that are on the left, like the general followers?

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  Well, it might be a problem that's facilitated by the psychopathic fringe types. Like, look, I think-

• 1:33:17Joe Rogan?

  It's not offered to them, is my point.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, the question is, why not? And the reason is, like, this is part of the- you talked to Lomborg- Right, to Bjorn. And Bjorn's pretty good on this, or very good on this, I should say.

• 1:33:29Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  You know, to give him credit, and he would like to see a world where, and he's part of ARC. He'd like to see a world where we make energy abundance a top priority.

• 1:33:37Joe Rogan?

  It's probably the only way you're gonna pull third world countries out of dire poverty.

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  Well, it's also, as far as I can tell, the only way that you pull them out of environmental catastrophe.

• 1:33:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:33:48Speaker 01

  Because if you wanna produce an environmental catastrophe, a true environmental catastrophe, how about a three or four year famine? So that everyone there kills all the animals, for example, or dies. Right, so we also know that if you get people above $5,000 a year GDP, then they start paying attention to long-term environmental sustainability. Because they don't have to scrabble around in the dirt for their next meal. So then we could say, well, how about we have a future of sufficient abundance so that no one is deprived of energy or opportunity for their children?

• 1:34:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Well, that sounds, that sounds like an invitation. Now, if you hate people and you think the industrial enterprise is a stain on the planet, and that we're viruses or cancer on the planet, then you're gonna have a problem with that. But my sense too is that if we had enough energy, we could make all the deserts bloom.

• 1:34:44Joe Rogan?

  I was watching a video on pollution in India, about the amount of garbage that gets thrown in rivers in India. And it was staggering, just staggering to watch, that somehow or another, through, because the population is so large, and there's so many poor people, and there's a lack of, whatever it is, they just, they're just throwing their garbage in the rivers. And the rivers are just overwhelmed with garbage. If there's ever like a symbol of thing, people that have been led the wrong way, like bad leadership, bad planning, bad-

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Bad underlying story.

• 1:35:24Joe Rogan?

  Everything. That's it. When you look in your river and it's, all you see is water bottles. All you see is floating plastic, that's the whole river. And you know that if you get in that water, you're gonna get sick. And yet- No one looks at it as this number one priority. Like, what do you always say? Clean your room. Make your bed. Like, right? Yeah. What's going on?

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Well, and you want to incentivize people to pay attention to the local environment. And you do that in part by ensuring that they're not living so close to the edge of catastrophe that they can only think about today.

• 1:35:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  And if you start from the mindset that... Can I tell you another story?

• 1:36:03Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:36:04Joe Rogan?

  You tell me all the stories. I don't have to ask questions.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  All right. This is a really cool story.

• 1:36:08Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  This is how to set the world right, this story. So, I've been traveling around lecturing about my book. And I wrote a chapter on Abraham in that book. And Abraham is the father of, in principle, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism. He's the father of nations. That's how the story goes.

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  So, when God comes to Abraham in a very particular way, it's one of the ways God is characterized in the Old Testament. So, this is like a definition of God. Right? It's not a testament to God. It's a definition of what God is. Okay, so Abraham, he doesn't hear anything about God till he's like seventy. And he's already living in privileged paradise because his father and his mother are rich. And so, he doesn't have to lift a finger. If life is about having your needs met, Abraham's got it covered. And so, he lives like a satiated infant till he's seventy. And then a voice comes to him. And it says, "You are required by the God of your ancestors

• 1:37:13Speaker 01

  to leave your zone of comfort, to leave the wealth of your father, to leave your nation, to leave your language, to go out into the world and have your terrible adventure. And if you do that..." So, now imagine that's the call to adventure. "If you do that, these things will happen." This is the covenant that God makes to the Abrahamic people. It's so cool. I just talked to Brett Weinstein about this from an evolutionary biological perspective on the road because I wanted him to evaluate the story I'm going to tell you from an evolutionary perspective. So, God is the voice that says to Abraham, "If you follow the call of adventure, you'll be a blessing to yourself." So that's the meaning of life, right? To have the adventure.

• 1:37:57Speaker 01

  You'll do this in a way. Blessing to yourself. Yeah, yeah, because adventure is compelling. Responsible, romantic adventure is the most compelling pathway. Right, and if it's intense enough, it justifies the suffering. Right, it's a reason to, it's a reason to get up in the morning, even if you're in pain. Okay, then he says, there's another thing that'll happen too, which is that your name will become known among your people for valid reasons. So that's that genuine reputation that we talked about. So if you follow the pattern of adventure properly, you'll be a blessing to yourself and your name will become known among your people for valid reasons. So that's a good deal. You'll do this in a way that will maximize the probability

• 1:38:41Speaker 01

  that you'll establish something of permanence, or even eternal permanence. So Abraham is offered, if he accepts the call and makes the proper sacrifices along the way, God says your descendants will outnumber the stars. So he establishes the pattern of fatherhood that best propagates down the generations, which is the same as following the pathway of adventure. Then he says, you'll do this in a way that will make sure no one can stand before you. Right, so that if you adhere to that adventurous spirit and you propagate it, all the enemies will, all enemies will either be converted into friends or flee before you. And then you'll do it in a way that brings abundance to everyone.

• 1:39:25Speaker 01

  And so, so now, this is the question I'd ask Brett. So imagine this. So imagine that we have an instinct in us, or a divine voice, I don't care which of those you use, an instinct within us that calls us to develop. Right, that puts us on the edge. And that's not the same as looking for infantile satiation or the gratification of our needs. It's genuinely this call to expand yourself and to be on the edge and to develop. That if you did that, to follow that instinct, then you'd be a blessing to yourself. Your name would become known among your people. You'd establish something of permanent significance. No one could stand before you and it would bring abundance to everyone. Right, and then in the Abrahamic story, what happens is that as Abraham accepts that,

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  goes out in the world, and then he has a series of adventures, each of which requires a more complete sacrifice. Because as you develop, under the influence of this call.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  What you're required to do is to live more carefully in accordance with your expanding domain of opportunity. And that's the pathway forward. So I asked Brett about that because this is different than the selfish gene idea, right? It's like there's an instinct within us that calls us to develop, that pulls us out into the world. And if we follow it religiously and we make the proper sacrifices along the way, then those five things will happen around us. And that speaks of a concordance which has to be there, has to be there between the spirit that develops us and the and the pathway that brings maximal benefit to the natural and the social world. And I can't see how that can be the case.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  If we're adapted to the world, that has to be the case. Right? It has to be that if we follow the instinct that would best put us together psychologically, this quest, this adventure, that would also be the spirit that set the world in order.

• 1:41:21Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Right? And that spirit, that whole thing, that's what's defined as God in that, in that particular story.

• 1:41:28Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Hmm. That resonates.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, I can't, see, the alternative is preposterous, right? The alternative is that

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  we don't have an instinct to develop. Like, and you know that's wrong, you just have to watch children and you know that's wrong. You just have to watch yourself and the curiosity that you have and the desire for novelty and for learning. You know, that's there. That's what you followed to make this show. Definitely. And so the alternative is that instinct doesn't exist. Well, that's a stupid theory. Or what brings you into the world is done at the expense of other people in a way that won't enhance your reputation, in a way that has nothing to do with anything permanent. Right? Then it would be sort of you against the world. That would be like a power orientation. You can get your way in the world, but you have to manipulate, you have to lie, you have to use compulsion, you have to use fear.

• 1:42:21Speaker 01

  You can't just rely on the quest, say, or your adventure. And I think you can. I think you can. I think you better. Or else, there's that too.

• 1:42:33Joe Rogan?

  It's interesting because you're talking about tyrants, right? And you're talking about people of extreme power and how that corrupts. And in that case, there's a large percentage of those people that are violating all those things that you said. Because they do manipulate and they do rely on fear.

• 1:42:52Speaker 01

  Well, you know, Nietzsche was an advocate of the will to power, right? So you can imagine that there's a variety of potential motivating forces and one would be hedonic pleasure. That's the golden calf worshippers, by the way. So that's just short-term hedonism. And that doesn't work. And by work, I mean, it doesn't iterate socially. It's like if it's all about you and what some whim in you wants now. First of all, that's not going to serve you well tomorrow. And I don't want to be anywhere near you. Like you're an over, you're literally an overgrown two-year-old. And that gets pretty ugly by the time you're 40. So the whole golden calf thing, no, that's just off the table.

• 1:43:30Joe Rogan?

  But isn't it kind of celebrated amongst certain high achievers, particularly in the business world? Like that hedonistic, sociopathic drive to constantly get more numbers on the ledger?

• 1:43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't, I don't know if that's exactly hedonism.

• 1:43:45Joe Rogan?

  Greed is good, that's Wall Street, right? That's Michael Douglas, right? Greed is good.

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, okay, let's delve into that for a minute. Okay, so.

• 1:43:55Joe Rogan?

  I'm not advocating.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  I know you're not, I know you're not. You can turn to hedonism, you can fall into nihilism. You can turn to hedonism or you can turn to power. Okay, this Abrahamic covenant, it's different than power. It's adventure, that's, it's romantic adventure, actually. That's not the only definition of God in the Old Testament, by the way. There's something deeper than, than that that it refers to. So those are the options. Now, you said, don't the achievers, you know, who are stacking up numbers? It's like they found a way forward to attain status, but they, but they've fixated on, on, they fixated on an element that shouldn't be fundamental. They're not trying to store up the treasure in heaven.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  They're trying to store up the treasure on earth and that's better than not doing it. See, this is another thing we need to understand because I've spent a lot of time, for example, trying to figure out why people are attracted to Andrew Tate. And I, I know why they're attracted to Andrew Tate. They'd rather be Andrew Tate than an incel. And they're right, right? It's best to give the devil his due. Like, if you had to choose between being kind of flabby and unhealthy and resentful and in your basement, looking at pornography, hating women because all of them reject you all the time, and you deserve it, and you're ineffectual, and the future looks pretty

• 1:45:23Speaker 01

  damn gloomy, and then you see Andrew Tate, who's tough and hyper masculine in an almost manner that's almost a parody, and wealthy and famous, and apparently has women at his disposal with a fair bit of stress on the idea of disposal. You'd think, well, I'd much rather be him than me. That's the incorporation of the shadow from the Jungian perspective. It's like, it's right.

• 1:45:52Joe Rogan?

  And you think about the number of men, their incels.

• 1:45:57Joe Rogan?

  The thing about men, also, if they get rejected a lot, they associate women with pain.

• 1:46:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:05Joe Rogan?

  And then they get angry at those women because those women cause them pain. Like, it's just a very simple equation.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:46:10Joe Rogan?

  And that's how you get a man hater. Or, excuse me, that's how you get a woman hater. And the same could be said for, that's how you get a man hater, right? You associate men with rejection and cruelty. And you think they're all that way.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  Young men in particular are more likely to be rejected. Young women may have difficulty finding the ideal man, but they don't face the same degree of universal rejection. So it's hard on young men.

• 1:46:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're not the pursuers, right, as much? Young women aren't.

• 1:46:38Speaker 01

  Right, right. Well, and women are the gatekeepers fundamentally of sex. So that's their, that's their essential power. That's also the power of chastity.

• 1:46:46Joe Rogan?

  And that's the scary thing about acquiring wealth, is that wealth allows you to bypass the genetic social hierarchy.

• 1:46:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I talked to, I talked to Russell Brand about this a lot. You know, women threw themselves at him. How'd that work out for him? Not great, you know, it threw him into great spiritual confusion. It was empty and hollow. And that's worth knowing, you see, because you might say to the people who are interested in the shadow figures, and Tate plays that role, the master of women, let's say. Why not do that? Because you need an answer to that, certainly when it's better than being lonely, isolated, bitter and ineffectual. That's for sure. Well, it's because

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  you don't confuse a stepping stone with the pinnacle. That's why. There's way more beyond that. I mean, you're a tough guy. You went through your disciplinary processes on the physical side, in particular, the intellectual side too, I might add. You know, you've got what Tate has to offer, but you're what? You're respectable. Why?

• 1:48:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, a different, completely different background than him, first of all. And also, my feeling in life is whenever you can, be nice. That's like a general guideline.

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  You mean, nice or good?

• 1:48:23Joe Rogan?

  I mean, both.

• 1:48:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:48:25Joe Rogan?

  Nice as well. Um, I get the posturing. I get how it'd be attractive to young men. I get it. If I was a young man, I would certainly be drawn to him, and I was to many fighters. And I accepted a lot of personality flaws in people that I admired as fighters, because they were very successful at doing this one insanely difficult thing.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:48:50Joe Rogan?

  And oftentimes, that requires a certain amount of narcissism, requires a certain amount of internal focus. Ironically enough, not at the championship level. Ironically enough, it gets you close, but it doesn't get you to be the king. The kings are almost

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Precisely.

• 1:49:08Joe Rogan?

  universally disciplined, focused, and generally kind. They're some of the nicest people, the best at the most Difficult thing athletically to do. And the most difficult, you're conquering.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  Why do you think that is?

• 1:49:24Joe Rogan?

  I think you have to be.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  Why, why?

• 1:49:26Joe Rogan?

  Miyamoto Musashi wrote about this in the Book of Five Rings. You must have balance in everything in life. If you have imbalance, you can get pretty far. Because you're so.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  Specialized.

• 1:49:40Joe Rogan?

  Right, you're so driven.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:49:42Joe Rogan?

  But you will fall prey to the balanced man.

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's exactly, that's exactly my point.

• 1:49:50Joe Rogan?

  You will also recognize characteristics in him that you envy. And that you wish you had yourself. Like if you're a narcissist and a sociopath, you know you are. And you can't really be proud of yourself. You can't.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:50:03Joe Rogan?

  You don't have the benefit of the positive feedback that you get from true kindness to others. You don't have.

• 1:50:10Speaker 01

  Well, you also know that your reputation is founded on sand. And one of the way to rationalize that is, well, everyone does that.

• 1:50:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  Everyone's like that. Exactly. Yeah, but then you don't trust or like anyone.

• 1:50:20Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then you're really alone.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  That's for sure.

• 1:50:23Joe Rogan?

  You're really alone. And then if you do achieve success, it's hollow. Because you realize like.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  So, you know, you just outlined there the progression that Carl Jung identified as characteristic of individuation. Right? With the second thing that you said. So imagine that you start. You start an incel. Right, you're ineffectual and you're rejected. As a young man. Now, there are exceptions, but let's just play that out as the unhappy majority. Okay, now you look for a shadow figure to sharpen you up, to toughen you up and to make you strive at least along one dimension. Right? And so then you do that. Well, then the next thing that happens in the Jungian stage progression is for a man, it's integration of the anima, which is the feminine part.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  And it's integration, it's not replacement. It's like, oh, well, then you discover the utility of empathy and compassion and kindness and mercy and care, while still being able to deal out justice, let's say. And so then you bridge that gap and then that integration, you just said, even among fighters, that's what puts them in the highest place. Right? That's right. That's right. So, but it's hard for the people, it's hard for those who are completely disaffected and also quite angry about it. You know, the people who are interested in the pathway that Tate offers, they're not so unhappy that he's hard on women. Because they're pretty mad at women. And so, you know, if it's the bitch or me,

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  then I'll pick me. You know, right, exactly, exactly, exactly. And so, and it is very crucial to get this progression correct, because monster's better than wimp.

• 1:52:08Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  Right. But the question is, what's better than monster? And so, it's very interesting that you made those comments on the fighting side, because you wouldn't necessarily think that it would be true in that world as well.

• 1:52:21Joe Rogan?

  Well, one of the best examples is your countryman, Georges St-Pierre. One of the greatest of all time. One of the nicest guys I've ever met. And if you didn't know that he was one of the greatest fighters of all time, you would never guess it. You'd never guess it, talking to him. He's curious, he's interesting, he's intelligent, he's very well-read, he's always interested in different things. He's constantly searching for new information. And as a martial artist, he is still on a quest of improvement, even though he's retired from competing. Always trains, constantly training.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  A quest for new information. Okay, so let me tell you a story about that.

• 1:53:02Joe Rogan?

  Please.

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  All right, so.

• 1:53:05Speaker 01

  This is the story that comes up at the beginning of Moses, when he turns into a leader. So it's about how you turn into a leader. Okay, so he's already killed a man and he's left Egypt because of it. So now he's in this land called Midian. And he goes there and he chases some ruffians away from a well for these two girls who are drawing water. And they go and tell their father and he says to them, "Bring this young man home to have dinner." So he does, and then he gets married to them. And then he becomes a shepherd. And this is crucial, because the shepherd's an image that runs through the biblical corpus, right? Well, shepherds at that time, lived by themselves in the wilderness, on their wits. And they kept the wolves and the lions at bay with primitive weapons. So these were tough guys.

• 1:53:50Speaker 01

  And they cared for the most vulnerable. So a shepherd is an image of optimized, ordinary masculinity. You take care of yourself, you can keep the monsters at bay, and you attend to the most vulnerable. So Moses has got that. He's a shepherd, he's a successful shepherd. So now he's out there one day wandering around Mount Sinai. And Mount Sinai, or Mount Horeb, that's the place where heaven and earth touch. So that's where the messengers of the divine descend to earth. And so he's out there and something attracts his attention, makes him curious. That's the burning bush. It's not a forest fire, it's not something you can't ignore. It's something alive, because that's a bush, a tree is a symbol of life.

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  And it's burning because things that are alive burn, right? That's metabolism. And intensification of that, like a psychedelic intensification of that, that's what the burning bush is. And that's what glimmers to Moses. And he steps off the beaten track, right? To investigate what drives his curiosity. And so then he goes off the beaten track and he starts to... Delve deeply into the mysteries of the burning bush. And at some point, he realizes he's on sacred ground. He takes off his shoes. That's a symbol of willingness to transform identity, because shoes signify identity, right? They're part of your costume, your working man's costume. And so then, he continues to commune with the burning bush. He gets deeper and deeper into something.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  He makes himself a specialist by following what compels him and delving deeply into it. And when he gets deep enough into it, to the bottom, the voice of eternity speaks to him and says, "You're now no longer who you were. You're now a leader. You have to go back to your people. You have to stand up against the tyrant. You have to tell the slaves that they need to leave their tyranny and their slavery and serve me in the wilderness. And you have to do that now." And Moses says, "I can't, because I can't speak. I'm slow of tongue." And God says, basically, "That's your problem. And with me on your side, we can sort that out. And don't you have a brother, Aaron? And can't he speak?

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  It's like, bring him along for the ride." And so, that's when Moses becomes a leader, right? And so, that's the pattern. It's like, ordinary masculinity. Those are the dwarves that Snow White serves before she meets the prince, by the way. The ordinary masculine, right? So, but, and that, and those dwarves protect her from the evil queen that wants to suppress her by feeding her a poisoned apple. So, Snow White has to learn to serve the ordinary man before she can find a prince. Yeah, something Disney missed completely in the last story. So, so, what's the pattern? Well, you discipline yourself, so you become a shepherd. And then you follow what compels you off the path.

• 1:56:45Speaker 01

  Then you take it seriously and get to the bottom of it. And then that transforms you. And thus transformed, you can face the tyrant. You can specify the promised land properly. And you can lead the slaves.

• 1:57:01Speaker 01

  Across chaos and blood, that's the Red Sea, and then through the desert. Right, and so you said, you know, you said two things. You said that the good fighters have learned to integrate their civilized side. Otherwise, they don't get to be great, and that they continue the pathway of self-improvement. Right, they continue to pursue what's calling to them. That's another definition of God in the Old Testament, by the way. What calls to you? That's the burning bush. The spirit of the burning bush is what entices you, what grabs your interest, what attracts your curiosity. And that's identical, the biblical claim is that's the same thing as the spirit of adventure. It's the same thing that speaks to Noah. Noah's

• 1:57:43Speaker 01

  a good man, and a voice comes to him and says, "All hell's a-broke to break loose." And he believes his intuition because he's a good man, and can he rely on himself? So he makes the ark, right, and he brings his family aboard, and culture, and nature, and reestablishes humanity. That's the pathway of the leader, too.

• 1:58:05Joe Rogan?

  What is your take on, there's a university in Jerusalem that had this theory that the burning bush was the acacia bush. The acacia bush is rich in DMT.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  Well, I think, look, I think that hallucinogens strip memory from perception.

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  So you see the world in all its blazing glory. Huxley figured that out with the Doors of Perception. That's really what, that is apparently what psychedelics do psychopharmacologically. They mimic, they mimic a high-stress condition, and they strip memory from perception so that you can return to the source and revitalize your perceptions. Right, so the probability that there's some overlap between that and the burning bush is high. It's high, so to speak, high. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I'll tell you, I'll tell you one more thing, one more story, okay, if that's all right with you. So something else I figured out

• 1:59:03Speaker 01

  that I tried on Brett. So imagine, you could take the hedonistic path, you could take the power path.

• 1:59:12Speaker 01

  You could take the nihilistic path. Okay, and then you might say, well, that's the only three options.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  That's kind of what the postmodernists believe, that's kind of what the nihilists and the postmodernists, the Nietzscheans believe. Power, hedonism, nihilism, those are your options. There's no uniting narrative above that. Okay, so in the story of Cain and Abel,

• 1:59:38Speaker 01

  two patterns are laid out that are different than that. One is Cain's pattern, one's Abel's pattern. So these are the first two people that are, that live in, in the world, right? Because Adam and Eve are made by God, you can, they're in paradise or were. Cain and Abel are the first two people.

• 1:59:55Speaker 01

  So Abel brings his best to the table.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  So he takes the best animal in his flock and he takes the best cut and the best part of the cut and he offers that to God. So he brings, literally brings his best to the table, that's what he sacrifices. And Cain doesn't, so Cain's sacrifices are rejected by God. And God tells him, if you brought your best to the table, you'd be accepted. And Cain gets bitter and resentful and invites temptation in to possess him. So that spirit of resentment possesses him and then he becomes murderous. He kills his brother and his descendants become genocidal and then you have the flood.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  And so that pattern of sacrifice is established right at the beginning of the biblical texts. Abel versus Cain. Abel brings the best to the table and that satisfies God. So one question, God actually asks Cain this when Cain complains. Says, if you, wouldn't you be accepted if you were doing your best? And so that's a question of conscience, right? If you're in extreme misery and your life is hollow and empty and you're bitter and resentful. It's like, you bringing your best to the table? Because the, the covenant proclaims that if you did, you'd be accepted.

• 2:01:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, clearly.

• 2:01:18Speaker 01

  Okay, so now the question is what constitutes, now you know you have to sacrifice. So sacrifice becomes the foundation of the state, not power, not hedonism, sacrifice. And then that motif is played out through the whole Bible, and that's what culminates in the New Testament, right? Total sacrifice as the foundation of the community. And that's right. And like, I don't know how to, what sense to make out of the metaphysics of the religious realm, you know, because that's beyond me and everyone. The world's a strange place, and we could leave it at that. But the idea that... See, Christ is the exemplar of voluntary self-sacrifice, right?

• 2:01:59Speaker 01

  Won't turn to power, won't deviate from his course, faces the worst of all possible deaths, descends to hell itself. That's the pattern of life lived with no reserve. And that's the foundation of the free state. That's right. I tried that on Brett, eh? He told me when we first met on the tour that he felt that the biblical narratives were anachronistic, you know, that they were written in a time that was no longer relevant to us. But he decided by the end of our three days together that if you got to the core of the message, it's alive, right? That's the living spirit inside the bush, you might say. And that it's... So here's even the weirder thing.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  So imagine, it's pretty obvious that Christ is a symbol of voluntary self-sacrifice. I don't think, it doesn't really come as a shock to anyone. But the weird thing is, you know, we put that symbol at the center of our churches and at the centers of our towns for 2,000 years, not really knowing why. And the reason is, is that voluntary self-sacrifice is the foundation of the integrated psyche and the stable, productive, and abundant community. And that's right. It's right. And so...

• 2:03:18Speaker 01

  Well, it's been exciting to have the opportunity over the last nine months to go talk to people about that because I've talked to about 150,000 people, I guess, public lectures.

• 2:03:29Joe Rogan?

  That to me is one of the most fascinating aspects of Christianity. Regardless of whether or not you think logically these things took place. Logically, these stories are a completely accurate depiction of exactly that one. If you follow the principles, it's incredibly beneficial to your spiritual life as a person.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  Well, that's a kind of interesting proof, isn't it?

• 2:03:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  Because it means that...

• 2:03:58Joe Rogan?

  There's truth in it.

• 2:03:59Speaker 01

  Well, there's certainly, there's certainly the spirit that makes, what would you say? The spirit of truth that makes life more abundant. That's exactly right. And these are weird stories because the way they're true is very sophisticated. They're true always. And that's different than a story about the past. Like, the truest story is always happening. The story of Moses is exactly like that. Like, the pattern of leadership development that's embedded in the Exodus story, that is how leaders develop, if they're real leaders. And their temptation is power, but that's not their motivation. That's their temptation, right? That's a very important distinction. And that's always the case with leaders.

• 2:04:42Speaker 01

  And if they fall prey to the temptation of power, no matter what their accomplishments, they're not going to complete the task.

• 2:04:49Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:04:49Speaker 01

  And so, there's a cool element at the end of that story too, you know? When Moses, just before Moses dies, he picks a scout from each tribe, 12 tribes, and he sends them to Canaan, which is the future. That's a good way of thinking about it. It's the potential place we could reside where everything was worked out. The land of milk and honey. He sends 12 scouts there.

• 2:05:14Speaker 01

  And 10 of them come back and say, they tell a fear story. Say, it's insurmountable, the challenges that lie ahead of us. There's no way we can master this. We should have never crossed the desert. We should have stayed under the thumbs of the tyrants. We should have never tried to be anything more than slaves because now we're doomed. And two of them... Say, "No, if we maintain our upward orientation and our covenant, nothing can stand in our way. We can make the deserts bloom." Moses dies, those two scouts, and so do all the Israelites who are convinced by the unfaithful scouts. And the scouts die, and the two people who go on to the Promised Land are Caleb and Joshua.

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  And they lead the Israelites, the faithful Israelites into the Promised Land. Those are the people who have the courage to confront the future in a faithful and, faithful, hopeful, and courageous manner. They are the inheritors of the future. Caleb, Joshua. Joshua's name is the same as Christ's name. It's the same name. And that's not fluke, right? That's one of those echoes or precursors to the story. There's an ethos that leads you into the Promised Land, and what's the ethos? The spirit of voluntary self-sacrifice. You give up something for a social relationship. Of course, you give up being primary, right?

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  You do the same thing at the social level, and when you do that, it integrates you and it sets the world straight. And that's built into the biblical story. It's right at its core.

• 2:06:54Joe Rogan?

  Pause that thought. I'm gonna use the restroom. We'll come back. We're back.

• 2:07:00Speaker 01

  So it's great fun to explain these things to people on the tour because it sorts them out.

• 2:07:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's very fascinating.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's for sure.

• 2:07:07Joe Rogan?

  And the fact that these stories have existed for so long is so interesting. You know, that's where it gets really weird.

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, they've adapted to the contours of our memory and our imagination. So you find them compelling, and they stick to your memory. So I'm gonna tell you what else I'm up to, okay?

• 2:07:25Joe Rogan?

  What are you up to?

• 2:07:26Speaker 01

  Well, the first thing I want to do is thank you. So we launched Peterson Academy in September. And we talked about it and it's been a stunning success. We have forty thousand students.

• 2:07:41Joe Rogan?

  That's amazing.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  We think we're the most rapidly capitalized. We're one of the most rapidly capitalized companies ever, especially with our degree of investment because we run a lean show. We have great professors. We have a great social media site. We had to kick ten people off it. We have fifteen thousand active users. Ten people were dragging it sideways.

• 2:08:04Joe Rogan?

  What were they doing?

• 2:08:05Speaker 01

  They were, they were causing trouble, Joe.

• 2:08:08Joe Rogan?

  Sociopaths.

• 2:08:08Speaker 01

  They were causing trouble. Well, or immature, or, or out for, or didn't know how to conduct themselves.

• 2:08:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  That's all it took. And now everyone is sharing ideas and, and Mick, my, my daughter and her husband, they keep a close eye on this.

• 2:08:22Joe Rogan?

  That's great.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  We're, we have secured funding to the point where we are dropping the price from five ninety-nine to three ninety-nine a year. As of today. Right? So that should make it accessible to a lot more people. And we're even more convinced than we were that this has to be the future of higher education. So when we were doing our due diligence for the fundraising, we discovered that forty percent of courses at university are now online. And we've investigated some of those courses. Many of them are PowerPoint presentations and that's all. And so that's the university experience for full tuition.

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  And we literally have the best professors in the world and unmatched production quality. So, and we're filling in the social element too, because we want people to be able to meet. The social media platform does that. It's a very positive platform. We've already had our first couple announce themselves, which was quite fun. And we're going to do in-person events. Our, our first plan, we're going to do a cruise.

• 2:09:30Joe Rogan?

  Can I ask you this?

• 2:09:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:33Joe Rogan?

  What has?

• 2:09:36Joe Rogan?

  What has your journey been like to go from relative obscurity as a professor in Toronto to becoming this person who you are now, sort of a worldwide educator outside of the standard system of academia, but also subject to intense international scrutiny, character distortions, complete, complete, like, what they've done to change your position, something like, you are probably the most intentionally misrepresented person I know, intentionally

• 2:10:20Joe Rogan?

  misrepresented. We see, you see it with a lot of other people too, but with you, it's malicious, you know, I've seen it. But yet you have this desire inside of you to spread information and to educate.

• 2:10:40Speaker 01

  And learn.

• 2:10:41Joe Rogan?

  And learn.

• 2:10:42Speaker 01

  I'm learning on the stage.

• 2:10:43Joe Rogan?

  What has it been like, is you, how old were you when I first met you? It was like 2015, right? Somewhere around that?

• 2:10:51Speaker 01

  10 years ago, eh? 53, yeah.

• 2:10:54Joe Rogan?

  You were just, you were just encountering notoriety, just encountering attention and what all the trappings that come with that. What has that been like, like navigating that? It's very unusual that a person becomes world famous, you know, at 50.

• 2:11:15Speaker 01

  For ideas.

• 2:11:16Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. Well, first, I mean, it was exhilarating and painful to begin with. It was exhilarating because I knew the ideas that I was teaching at Harvard and at the U of T were revolutionary. I could never believe, I never could get over the fact that they allowed me to teach, like, it was just a, but the students loved my courses and I was very diligent, you know, so I, I stayed in my traces, so to speak. And I wasn't a revolutionary for the sake of revolutionary argumentation. And I was teaching about totalitarianism and great evil. And so it was hard to make a moral case against me and no one was really inclined to, you know, they were happy with my teaching. So, and as were the students. And I had a clinical practice, which was quite extensive. But then when I first

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  Started to lecture much more broadly. We rented a theater and I did a series on Genesis. That was the first foray out into the public space. And it sold out. Well, that was when I started to encounter pain, I would say, at a crowd level. And that was rough, Joe. Because I'm pretty good at getting people to open up to me right away. I mean, I learned that as a clinician, you know? And to have thousands of people do that, that's pretty rough. Now, it was good. It was a good thing, like all things considered, because people would tell me how miserable they were, how discouraged and how sidelined, and often how bitter, how addicted, how imprisoned, rough stories.

• 2:12:48Speaker 01

  And then tell me how much they had improved. But that was also, there was a tragic element to that, because it didn't take that much, you know, to tap them into the right orientation. And so there was sadness in that, to see all these people who were demoralized, thousands of them, and then to see how that could be rectified and yet hadn't been. That was rough. I'd really, I'm sure that was what, there's many things that made me sick. I had a pre-existing condition that was autoimmune. But seeing all that, that was pretty rough.

• 2:13:32Speaker 01

  But knowing that it was possible to rectify it, well, that's, there's nothing better than that. Like, you know, wherever I go now, it's so interesting. Wherever I go now, I'm among friends. It's very strange. And I have security people and they keep an eye on me and all the interactions I have with people are positive. And I always take time for people, you know, because, well, if they're...

• 2:13:59Speaker 01

  They've been positively impacted by something that I've read or said and they're trying to get their lives together. It's like, how about we encourage that? Right? Cause more of that would be real good. And if we had enough of that, then more of that would be real good and real necessary.

• 2:14:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:16Speaker 01

  And so.

• 2:14:17Joe Rogan?

  And good for everyone, too.

• 2:14:18Speaker 01

  Hey, absolutely. Well, that's that abundance. It's like, you got your act together? Great. That'll be real good for you. Be great for your girlfriend, be great for your kids, be great for your community. Absolutely. And it's, well, you know, the Christian ethos, the emphasis is redemption, one soul at a time. Well, I'm a psychologist, you know? That's what I think. One person at a time. Because everyone's connected way more intensely than we think. And so there's no such thing as a trivial person. And there's no such thing as a trivial sin or a trivial accomplishment for that matter. And so, and I know that. I know that. I studied totalitarianism for a long time. I know how it comes about.

• 2:15:00Speaker 01

  It comes about when everyone lies about everything, all the time. And the way you stop that is by not lying. And that's how it stops. So what's it like? Painful and insanely exhilarating at the same time. And, you know, the balance has shifted over the years to the exhilaration. Once I got on top of it, once I got my health under control, which required pretty stringent discipline. Like I eat steak. And when I deviate from that, things start to fall apart around me pretty quick.

• 2:15:34Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it crazy that that alone is polarizing? You're eating all the steak. You're contributing to the downfall of civilization. You're destroying the environment. Don't you know that cows are the number one producer of?

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 2:15:48Joe Rogan?

  We gotta stop eating meat, Jordan. We eat too much meat. And that's why the world's. Meanwhile, China's opening up coal plants every week. It's hilarious.

• 2:15:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, that's just another, okay, so it's also surreal. And that's one element. The diet thing, just alone, not just alone, is surreal. I mean, my daughter was so sick and now she's great.

• 2:16:11Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it crazy?

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  It's crazy. Well, my wife is on this carnivore diet too, and like. It's been unbelievably good for her.

• 2:16:18Joe Rogan?

  It's unbelievably good for almost everybody that I've ever met. That's what's really nuts.

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  Well, it's crazy.

• 2:16:24Joe Rogan?

  For the mind.

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, your brain likes to run on ketones, as it turns out. Yeah, it really does.

• 2:16:30Joe Rogan?

  I felt when I, you know, I've done it back and forth, but when I'm on it strictly, you know, like when I go back to it. One of the things that I noticed immediately is I have like an extra gear intellectually.

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  More stamina.

• 2:16:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, more stamina.

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  We're gonna run a study and IQ test people.

• 2:16:46Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, because my, we don't know, but yeah, there's two studies planned. One on, one group will be people with immunological disorders, try carnivore, keto and ordinary diet, random assignment. But we're also going to give them personality and IQ tests.

• 2:17:03Joe Rogan?

  You should do it with junk food. That I'd be fascinated to see people pre, like go the right way first and then try junk food. You know, sort of like.

• 2:17:14Speaker 01

  It'd be good to do an A B A B design. That's what that is.

• 2:17:17Joe Rogan?

  What was that, Super Size Me?

• 2:17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that documentary?

• 2:17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:20Joe Rogan?

  Where the guy just.

• 2:17:21Speaker 01

  Well, it's clear, it's absolutely crystal clear that we eat too many carbohydrates. Like the food pyramid is upside down.

• 2:17:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes, clearly. And then on top of that, environmental pollutants and all the other issues that we have with additives. And this is to me is one of the more exciting things about this current administration is the Make America Healthy Again movement. And, you know, eliminate fluoride from the water, eliminate all these, I think there's a new list of ingredients that most of them are banned in Europe and a lot of other places and are legal in America. It's insanity and it doesn't make any sense. And oftentimes, the arguments don't even make sense as to why they continue to produce it because they produce the same products for Canada, for instance, where Canada has better laws when it comes to additives.

• 2:18:07Joe Rogan?

  So they produce the ones in Canada where they don't have the negative dangerous additives. And yet they still make this argument that to force them to stop doing that in America will cause great economic harm. It's like.

• 2:18:21Speaker 01

  Well, it's clearly, clearly the case that we have an obesity, diabetes and mental health epidemic. And the probability that all of those are associated with insulin resistance and immunological reactions seems to me to be certain.

• 2:18:37Joe Rogan?

  Herbicides and pesticides as well.

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  Well, there's a cascading.

• 2:18:43Speaker 01

  There's a cascade of differential effects. Undoubtedly, some people are more sensitive to those things as well.

• 2:18:48Joe Rogan?

  I was watching a documentary that I sent to Jamie about China. And one of the, you know, China innovates at such a level, like such a fascinating level, that, you know, because they're integrated with the government, which I'm not saying is a good thing, but because of that, a sort of unlimited growth, because the growth is designed for the state, like, everyone's all involved in it. One of the things they're doing is integrating rice farms with crayfish farms. So they've figured out a way to stop using herbicides and pesticides and instead farm these two things together. So they have the rice and then they have the crayfish.

• 2:19:31Joe Rogan?

  The crayfish feed off the excess material from the rice, but also keep the water nitrogen and carbon rich. And so the rice is more nutrient-rich, and so soil is more nutrient-rich. And then they're bringing in fish and crabs as well. So they're harvesting all of these different things that people eat, along with the rice, all in together, and they've created, you know, sort of like what they've done with regenerative agriculture, like White Oaks Pastures and, you know, polyface farms and different regenerative agriculture establishments in America. But they're doing it with rice to avoid using herbicides and pesticides.

• 2:20:15Speaker 01

  Well, hopefully, the new administration under Kennedy will be able to figure out how to prioritize these things so some of them happen. My concern, I suppose, it's not my concern, a concern, is that they'll try to do too many things at once, you know? And that's why I focused when we talked earlier today about insulin resistance.

• 2:20:36Joe Rogan?

  Right, but there's so much to try to change.

• 2:20:38Speaker 01

  Well, that's it. And you can't change it all. Like, that's, there's going to be resistance on all fronts.

• 2:20:44Joe Rogan?

  But one person at a time, as you're saying, like, when you, when you have this message and you talk to people about things that you've done. That have made you healthier. That message resonates and then one person at a time tries that. Their friends join in and the next thing you know, you've got a large percentage of healthy people that are listening to you.

• 2:21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:06Joe Rogan?

  Which is amazing.

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  Well, and I've seen that again at the shows. Like, one of the things that's also changed across the years is that the proportion of people who are in trouble at my shows is decreasing. And partly that's because many of the guys who come

• 2:21:23Speaker 01

  generally with their wife and often with a child have put themselves together.

• 2:21:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:21:29Speaker 01

  And then they're happy about that and they tell me the story. And so that's great. Like, there, there's nothing better than traveling all around the world and having people come up to you and say that they weren't doing so well.

• 2:21:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:42Speaker 01

  And that their lives are way better now and thank you.

• 2:21:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's beautiful.

• 2:21:45Speaker 01

  That's a good deal.

• 2:21:46Joe Rogan?

  That's a great deal.

• 2:21:47Speaker 01

  That's a good deal.

• 2:21:48Joe Rogan?

  Those are my favorite stories that I hear from people that listen to the podcast. They're like, I've listened to the podcast, I lost sixty pounds, I started working out every day. I'm, I'm much healthier, I'm drinking a lot of water, I'm taking electrolytes and vitamins and, and just my mental health has improved because of the daily exercise. I'm a different person.

• 2:22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:22:05Joe Rogan?

  I'm on the right path.

• 2:22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's so, so that's very interesting too, eh, that the fact that that's actually, you said, those are the best stories that you can hear.

• 2:22:13Joe Rogan?

  I love those stories.

• 2:22:13Speaker 01

  Well, it shows you something about non-hedenistic motivation. It's like, imagine what you could have if you could have anything you wanted. Well, maybe, you know, your imagination would drift first to the hedonistic side, or maybe the power side for that matter. It's like, no, how about you can wander around anywhere in the world? Some isolated field with a castle on it in Serbia and people that you've never seen will come up to you and say, I was having a pretty damn dismal time of it, all things considered, and I listened to what you wrote and said and in consequence, I put my life together and their wife is standing beside them going, yeah, he's really in a lot better shape. Thank you a lot.

• 2:22:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. No, those, those are great stories.

• 2:22:57Speaker 01

  That's a good deal.

• 2:22:58Joe Rogan?

  That's a great deal.

• 2:22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so wouldn't you ask what it's like? Well, it's like a lot of that.

• 2:23:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:04Speaker 01

  You know, and, and.

• 2:23:05Joe Rogan?

  Do you feel a burden? Do you feel like a sense of responsibility that is at times overwhelming because of this responsibility that you have?

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  I think I felt more for a good while the pain of it. It wasn't the responsibility. Well.

• 2:23:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, the intense connection you have to these people that are.

• 2:23:23Speaker 01

  Well, the responsibility, I, the responsibility makes you careful.

• 2:23:28Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:23:29Speaker 01

  You know, how careful are you?

• 2:23:32Joe Rogan?

  Pretty careful.

• 2:23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:23:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:34Speaker 01

  Why?

• 2:23:35Joe Rogan?

  Cause you have a responsibility.

• 2:23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's okay.

• 2:23:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:40Speaker 01

  Well, that's part of that additional sacrifice.

• 2:23:42Joe Rogan?

  It seems natural to me.

• 2:23:46Speaker 01

  Okay, what do, what do you mean?

• 2:23:48Joe Rogan?

  Um, that with, you know, the, the concept with great power comes great responsibility. It just seems normal.

• 2:23:55Speaker 01

  Right. Well, it has to be the case, right? I mean, as your field of opportunity expands.

• 2:24:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:01Speaker 01

  If your field of responsibility doesn't expand, you'll collapse. And you pay a higher price for stupidity at larger scales of opportunity.

• 2:24:10Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:24:10Speaker 01

  Obviously.

• 2:24:11Joe Rogan?

  Obviously.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  And so get your act together.

• 2:24:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:13Speaker 01

  And, and, you know, and, and is that a burden? Voluntarily undertaken responsibility isn't a burden. It's an opportunity.

• 2:24:22Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:24:23Speaker 01

  Right? That doesn't mean it's, it is, it's not easy, but easy, like, I don't eat, I don't know what easy is.

• 2:24:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:31Speaker 01

  What's easy? Pointless misery? That's not easy.

• 2:24:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:36Speaker 01

  Like.

• 2:24:36Joe Rogan?

  A life with no meaning is one of the hardest things.

• 2:24:39Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 2:24:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:41Speaker 01

  So I guess the reason you pick up your cross and walk uphill is because that's the best thing you can do, all things considered. I mean, that's why Christ says that his burden is light, that his yoke is light. It's like, huh, you're supposed to take up your cross and walk uphill towards death and hell, let's say, but that's light. Okay, why? Because, because there's no better pathway than voluntarily undertaking responsibility.

• 2:25:09Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:25:09Speaker 01

  Well, definitely. That's psychologically impeccable statement.

• 2:25:16Speaker 01

  There's no difference statistically speaking between thinking about yourself and being miserable. Self-consciousness.

• 2:25:22Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:25:23Speaker 01

  They're the same thing.

• 2:25:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:24Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:25:25Joe Rogan?

  Which is a giant problem with social media, right?

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  Terrible problem.

• 2:25:29Joe Rogan?

  Accelerant to misery.

• 2:25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's, sure, as soon as you're focused on you.

• 2:25:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:34Speaker 01

  The narrow you now, you're self-conscious, you stumble on stage, you can't play your musical instrument, you can't ride a bike, you can't box, right, you're not in the flow.

• 2:25:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:44Speaker 01

  Why? Because you're not serving the right thing. Like, when I go on stage, I remember first of all, I have music at the beginning of my shows. I've got a great musician.

• 2:25:53Joe Rogan?

  What do you play?

• 2:25:54Speaker 01

  Well, I, I don't play it, it's, um, I have a musician from Cambridge. Yeah, yeah, my son sometimes plays for us, which is really fun.

• 2:26:02Joe Rogan?

  So it's not songs, it's just music with no lyrics?

• 2:26:04Speaker 01

  Julian plays, he plays, he plays, um, his, he plays country music on a guitar and a couple of his own, his own, uh, compositions, so it's been fun to have him along when, because he's quite good at it, and so that's really, that's really great, but the music, the, the, the, Dave, the guy who plays for me, he, um, he starts out, plays classical gas, he's kind of like a one-man band, he plays classical guitar, but he's, he's got electronic instruments around him, and he can fill up the theater or the stadium, he likes playing in stadiums, and he ends with inception on electric guitar, which is pretty hardcore rock, all things considered, and it gets everybody focused, you know,

• 2:26:46Speaker 01

  and then, when I'm lecturing, I have a question, and I know that's a quest, and it's real, because I pick something important that I would like the answer to, and then I explore that with the audience, and I'm not self-conscious, and the reason for that is, it's not about me, it's about trying to answer the question, and even more importantly, trying to get the damn question right to begin with, right? Because you've got to get the question right, man, that's the crucial issue. Then the words come to you, that, what did I figure out? The spirit of your aim is what answers your prayers.

• 2:27:27Speaker 01

  Here's a brutal idea for you.

• 2:27:30Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:27:31Speaker 01

  Right. So if you want to defeat your wife, the spirit of power will tell you what to say.

• 2:27:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, right is right, man. Right. There's a terrifying thing to know. So if you aim upward high enough, then the spirit of upward aim reveals itself to you in words. That's right, in words and intent, and that's exactly right. So, so it's great. Like, it's a lot. You know, you know

• 2:28:01Speaker 01

  that it's a lot.

• 2:28:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I had a different journey, though. My journey was like a slow drip of fame, which I think is very healthy. It's a good way to do it so you could adjust to it.

• 2:28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you also, you also mostly escaped from reputation savaging, right? I mean, you've had, I'm not saying completely, because people have gone after you, but I got a real flurry of, of early hate around Bill C-16, which I was 100% right about, by the way.

• 2:28:31Joe Rogan?

  But it was, you were a lightning rod. You were the patriarchy. You were the, the one to point to that was going to reinforce these established norms that are not supportive of the minimalized and marginalized communities, right? You were, you were cruelty, right? You were the cruel white man. What did, what did, uh, that guy call you?

• 2:28:55Speaker 01

  Mean.

• 2:28:55Joe Rogan?

  Mean white man?

• 2:28:59Joe Rogan?

  Which is, by the way, you've already lost. When you, when that's, you're throwing pejoratives out there like that in a debate, like, that's the thing that I was talking about, like, when someone tries to establish insults and get you on your back. It's offense. It's offense to put you in a defensive position so that you cannot do your best.

• 2:29:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's also to pull the rug out from underneath you, so you collapse your reputation permanently, and that redounds to the person's credit.

• 2:29:28Joe Rogan?

  Also, it's to establish a narrative to the audience that's listening to you. Now you have to look at this person under this light, because I've, I've done so eloquently described him as his. Thing.

• 2:29:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:29:37Joe Rogan?

  And then he will be defensive about that. He does, well, I am not that. And then you look even more like that thing.

• 2:29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's a very underhanded way of of progressing.

• 2:29:47Joe Rogan?

  Which is.

• 2:29:47Speaker 01

  Luckily, I had.

• 2:29:48Joe Rogan?

  Don't like that. Not only do I not like that, I don't think that's necessary. I don't think it's necessary as the person doing it. I certainly don't think it's necessary to respond to that. I don't think it does anyone any good. I don't think it's good for society as a whole. And it's definitely not good for exploring ideas.

• 2:30:10Speaker 01

  I wonder what you do with the psychopaths.

• 2:30:12Joe Rogan?

  It's also you're trying to win.

• 2:30:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:15Joe Rogan?

  Versus trying to express your perspective. With as much clarity and as much thought as possible. You're trying to do your very best to. Examine these things from a selfless perspective, from a truly objective perspective.

• 2:30:36Speaker 01

  Well, it's a truly, it's a truly quest perspective, I think, right? So it's, it's not exactly objective. It's more like. Because you don't have access to that, but what you can say is, well, I'm, I'm genuinely puzzled about this.

• 2:30:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:49Speaker 01

  And I would genuinely like to search for the answer.

• 2:30:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:30:52Speaker 01

  Right?

• 2:30:53Joe Rogan?

  Wouldn't it be ideal if you were having a debate where someone said something that you agreed with and you're like, wow, he's got a really good point? And you, instead of refuting that person, exploring that with them. Which is one of the reasons I don't like debates.

• 2:31:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't like debates either.

• 2:31:06Joe Rogan?

  I like conversations.

• 2:31:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:08Joe Rogan?

  Because in conversations, if you don't have a predetermined narrative that you want to enforce. Instead, you have your thoughts, you have your ideas, and you're not married to them.

• 2:31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:31:22Joe Rogan?

  And these are just thoughts. And you put them out there. And then you can encounter a very unique human being who has a way of describing and thinking about things. That will open your mind to new possibilities, which is what we all should strive for.

• 2:31:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:31:39Joe Rogan?

  We should all strive to be. To be illuminated, to, to, to learn from new things. But yet, we close those off because that is a, a point that your enemy is trying to score.

• 2:31:51Speaker 01

  Well, it's also because people, people aren't really very well versed in how to do this, you know? Right. So, so one of the huge advantages of your podcast and of the podcast world in general, I would say, is that you model how to do that. You know, it's like, and there's a, there's an, there's an intense religious ethos under that. So, okay, so what does it mean? You start without pride, in humility. It's like, what the hell do I know? Right? Or, or maybe more precisely, there's probably some things I could still learn that would be beneficial. Okay?

• 2:32:28Speaker 01

  You note your interest in a topic and your desire to know more. So that's the quest elements, like you're after something, right? You don't know what it is, but, but it's more development, it's more wisdom, it's more information, right? And you're not sure where it's gonna be.

• 2:32:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:32:43Speaker 01

  Okay, so now you, you're the sort of person who could learn and that has something to learn, and now you have a quest in mind. Okay, so now that's, that's the frame for your actions. Well, if you, if you're talking to someone who's also doing that, well then, those are the words that come.

• 2:32:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:00Speaker 01

  Right? And, and they come, they come in a compelling way to you and to the participant, and in a way that's compelling enough so that they compel other people. That's the Holy Spirit, by the way. That's, that phenomenon from a religious perspective. That's exactly what it is. Right, because that's like you sit before the talk and rehearse what words you're gonna say. They just appear.

• 2:33:22Joe Rogan?

  No, I never do.

• 2:33:23Speaker 01

  Right?

• 2:33:24Joe Rogan?

  I don't think I should.

• 2:33:25Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:33:26Joe Rogan?

  I don't, well, sometimes it's a problem because you breach subjects that you weren't really prepared to talk about, and you might not have a fully formed idea about it.

• 2:33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:35Joe Rogan?

  You know, you're not, oh, if I thought about that, what would I have said differently? You know?

• 2:33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you kinda have to find that out along the way.

• 2:33:43Joe Rogan?

  Yes, right.

• 2:33:44Speaker 01

  You know, and that way you're, you know, you have a right to stumble over your own ignorance.

• 2:33:48Joe Rogan?

  For sure.

• 2:33:49Speaker 01

  How the hell do you know it's there before you reveal it?

• 2:33:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, not only that, I don't think the audience truly trusts you unless they feel authenticity in that.

• 2:33:59Joe Rogan?

  That quest, as it were, that desire to try to understand like what is it that you believe? And why do you believe what you believe? And where did you come to these conclusions? How? What journey did you go on? What ideas did you dismiss? What ideas were holding you back? What ideas did you realize were just a personal weakness? That you were protecting yourself from reality? Protecting yourself from the reality of bad choices and past mistakes? What are you doing to stop that from entering into your current state of mind? You know, and that, that kind of thinking, people can mirror.

• 2:34:41Joe Rogan?

  And they can listen to you talk about these things and say, I do that. Okay, I gotta stop doing that. Okay, this is what, this is how I can, this is how I can clarify the way I view things. And this is why I'm tripping myself up. Because I keep trying to win conversations. I keep trying to be right all the time, which is impossible. Especially as a human.

• 2:35:04Speaker 01

  It's elevating your status in the conversation as a consequence of abstract victory. Instead of, instead of increasing your wisdom and enhancing your reputation as a sojourner towards the truth.

• 2:35:20Joe Rogan?

  Yes, and it's especially difficult for young people. Because you don't have enough life experience to have made these mistakes and correct them and learned and grown and have the humility to recognize that process.

• 2:35:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:35:37Joe Rogan?

  Instead, you see other people that are successful or whatever it is, and you want that right now.

• 2:35:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's wrong too, because you don't want that right now. You want to learn how to have that so that when you do get it.

• 2:35:48Joe Rogan?

  But you don't.

• 2:35:49Speaker 01

  No, definitely not.

• 2:35:50Joe Rogan?

  You don't, right? Because everybody wants to win the lottery. That's one of the worst things that can happen to you.

• 2:35:55Speaker 01

  Well, and what do young people have? They can listen and they can ask questions.

• 2:36:01Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:36:02Speaker 01

  Right, and you know, they say when the student is ready, the teacher will come. Well, how how does that play out in the world? Well, if you admit to your ignorance and you ask genuine stupid questions, you will rapidly encounter people who are more than happy to share their wisdom with you.

• 2:36:22Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:36:23Speaker 01

  Like, people love having mentees, right? They like to be able to share their wisdom and their experience.

• 2:36:29Joe Rogan?

  Unfortunately, even if they don't have it.

• 2:36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:33Joe Rogan?

  That's where it becomes a problem.

• 2:36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:36:34Joe Rogan?

  The false prophet.

• 2:36:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's right.

• 2:36:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes. The false guru.

• 2:36:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 2:36:39Joe Rogan?

  The people that don't have the answers to their own lives, so they try to give other people answers to their lives.

• 2:36:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's also the psychopath problem is that, you know, what about the people who are feigning competence?

• 2:36:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, well.

• 2:36:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's a real problem.

• 2:36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a real problem. That's that's that's that's it's a it's a deadly problem and it's massively elevated on social media.

• 2:37:00Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:37:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, it used to be a gigantic problem in martial arts. The fake martial artists. There was a lot of them.

• 2:37:07Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:37:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:08Speaker 01

  Any get any, that's the that's the eternal parasite problem.

• 2:37:13Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh, yes.

• 2:37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so so organisms build up a storehouse of value, a carcass, let's say, like a whale carcass, for example, and

• 2:37:26Speaker 01

  inevitably, the parasites move in to invade it, inevitably. And that's so consistent a pattern that sex evolved to stop it.

• 2:37:37Joe Rogan?

  How so?

• 2:37:38Speaker 01

  Well, parasites can reproduce faster than their hosts because they're simpler. And so they can swarm the host quite rapidly, especially if the host clones itself, because the host then stays identical physiologically across the generations. So the parasites can optimize to colonize the host and that's the end of it.

• 2:38:01Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:38:02Speaker 01

  If you reproduce sexually, you mix your genes up fifty per you you pay a price. You lose fifty percent of your genetic, specific genetic heritage. But the advantage is you stay ahead of the parasites. So sex evolved to outwit the parasites. And a huge part of what we're seeing around us, and this is probably a consequence at the low lowest level, base level. We've had a phenomenal boom in wealth since World War II. Phenomenal. We stored wealth everywhere, like in Harvard at a fifty-three billion dollar endowment. Well, the parasites found the wealth everywhere.

• 2:38:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:38Speaker 01

  And they've invaded like mad.

• 2:38:39Joe Rogan?

  That's a great example of it.

• 2:38:41Speaker 01

  Oh, hey, man.

• 2:38:42Joe Rogan?

  Parasites in academia are a great example of what you're talking about.

• 2:38:44Speaker 01

  Media.

• 2:38:45Joe Rogan?

  Unearned.

• 2:38:46Speaker 01

  Legacy media.

• 2:38:47Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:38:48Speaker 01

  Science has been invaded that way.

• 2:38:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:50Speaker 01

  The political, this is a major problem.

• 2:38:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:38:52Speaker 01

  You know, and so, how do you protect yourself against the parasitical exploiters?

• 2:38:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, you could recognize parasitical behavior, right? When everything gets chalked off to racism and white supremacy, when they start using these pejoratives, they start throwing those around for everything. You know, that's, that's one of the ways you recognize.

• 2:39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 2:39:09Joe Rogan?

  You're a parasite. You're not really doing science, you're not really doing academics.

• 2:39:15Speaker 01

  Well, one of the, one of the hallmarks of, of identification from the clinical literature for the cluster B types, and so they're, they have a parasitical element, histrionic, narcissistic, psychopathic, criminal, right? That's cluster B. They use false claims of victimization to manipulate.

• 2:39:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:39:34Speaker 01

  And so this is a particularly pernicious pathway, because they parasitize empathy.

• 2:39:39Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:39:40Speaker 01

  Right, and the left is unbelievably susceptible to that, because the left is full of empathic people.

• 2:39:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:39:47Speaker 01

  And so, those who parasitize empathy have a field day on the left.

• 2:39:50Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, because the left is generally thought to be more educated, more compassionate, kinder, looking out for marginalized people, that's part of the ethics of it all.

• 2:40:00Speaker 01

  The ethic is pretty straightforward. Anything that cries is a baby. It's like, no, some things that cry are monsters.

• 2:40:08Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:40:09Speaker 01

  Right, right, well, let, let's take the case of Nicola Sturgeon, the, the Scottish Prime Minister, the previous Scottish Prime Minister. Any man who wants to can be a woman. It's like, okay, any man.

• 2:40:24Speaker 01

  You mean any man, do you? Yeah. Have you encountered the nightmare men? Oh, they don't exist, they're all victims, yeah. You just bloody well wait till you encounter one. You'll change your story very rapidly. And for the naive and sheltered empaths of the radical left, they're either psychopaths, so they're wolves in cheap clothing, or they're people that are so naive that the, what would you say? Red Riding Hood's grandmother can definitely have his way with them.

• 2:40:56Joe Rogan?

  Yes, that's literally something that I use as an example in my Netflix special. I said, I think there are people that feel like they're trapped in a woman's body. And then there's also people that are out of their fucking mind, they're crazy. And that all throughout history, but what I pointed to, all throughout history, when you wanted to make like a killer in a movie scarier, you put him in a dress. Like Norman Bates in Psycho, Silence of the Lambs, and I used the big bad wolf. I'm like, it's literally a wolf dressed up like a woman. Like, that's literally what it is. And they've somehow or another completely abandoned this one aspect of masculinity

• 2:41:36Joe Rogan?

  that's one of the more terrifying is the predatory pervert. And they've given the predatory pervert a privileged position.

• 2:41:47Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:41:49Joe Rogan?

  And that's

• 2:41:49Speaker 01

  That's Eve's sin, by the way.

• 2:41:52Joe Rogan?

  One of the craziest things about it is they've completely abandoned the idea of the pedophile and then the monster and the sexual pervert, then the attacker, the assaulter. The person who, when you give a guy, you say, all you have to do is say you're a woman, now you have access to whatever women's spaces. All the women's spaces, you could victimize them, you could fight them, you could beat them in sports, you could dominate them in all games. Bizarre, bizarre that no one's caught on to that.

• 2:42:24Speaker 01

  That's for sure.

• 2:42:25Joe Rogan?

  That's the weirder, that's the more cult-like and even you could say religious aspect of leftist thinking.

• 2:42:33Speaker 01

  It's an original sin. Eve clutches the serpent to her breast. It's like, that's a serpent. It's poison. You don't get to love it. Right, it's a monster.

• 2:42:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, it's a guy wearing a dress with an erection in the women's room.

• 2:42:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, right, or worse.

• 2:42:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, or worse.

• 2:42:51Speaker 01

  Or worse.

• 2:42:52Joe Rogan?

  Or a lot worse, yeah.

• 2:42:53Speaker 01

  Well, right, and you know, there are no shortage of naive people who've never really encountered a monster and have no imagination for it.

• 2:43:00Joe Rogan?

  But there's also people that are willing to justify the monster's behavior because the monsters are part of a protected class now.

• 2:43:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's part of that.

• 2:43:07Joe Rogan?

  Which is crazy.

• 2:43:08Speaker 01

  The Cluster B types use proclamation of victimization to parasitize. That's part of their clinical pathology.

• 2:43:16Joe Rogan?

  And they're so ubiquitous. And they're so common. That's what's really crazy. And why is it that academia is overwhelmed by people like this? Is it because it's vulnerable to parasites?

• 2:43:31Speaker 01

  Sure, why not? It was a storehouse of unguarded value.

• 2:43:34Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:43:35Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:43:36Joe Rogan?

  Without any religious principles.

• 2:43:38Speaker 01

  Well, also, yeah, there's that too. And with no real gatekeepers.

• 2:43:43Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:43:45Speaker 01

  Like, the parasite problem's a very deep problem. So, I can even, maybe I can even give you an example of that. This is a hard one, but I'll try. In the Pinocchio movie, this also happens in Jonah, the story of Jonah. Remember, Geppetto ends up in a whale. It's like, what the hell? There's no explanation for that in the story. It's like he's out looking for Pinocchio and now he's in a whale. Well, a whale is a giant carcass. Right, and so when something dies, its spirit, what would you say? Its spirit is then embedded in a carcass. That's a good way of thinking about it. That's why Pinocchio has to go into the belly of the whale to free Geppetto and finish his transformation, is that when things deteriorate, right,

• 2:44:29Speaker 01

  you have these carcasses lying around with their dead spirits. The spirit of what gave rise to them is still inside there. And the job is to go into the carcass and to revitalize the spirit that produced it and not to parasitize it. Right.

• 2:44:46Joe Rogan?

  Boy, I don't know how you got that out of Pinocchio and the whale. I'm trying to follow you on this one, I'm like, wow.

• 2:44:53Speaker 01

  Geppetto ends up languishing in the whale.

• 2:44:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:44:56Speaker 01

  Right? So imagine that there's a spirit in the universities that gave rise to these great, great storehouses of value. And that spirit has disintegrated, and now it's inside the storehouse, that's a good way of thinking about it, it's inside the storehouse. Your job as someone who wants to become real is to go into the storehouses of value that have been bequeathed to us by the past, and to discover and revitalize the spirit that gave rise to them, not to parasitize them.

• 2:45:22Joe Rogan?

  And when they parasitize them.

• 2:45:23Speaker 01

  They strip them to their bones and there's nothing left.

• 2:45:26Joe Rogan?

  And they do it, obviously, right? There's plagiarism, there's all these different, and all that stuff.

• 2:45:31Speaker 01

  False scientific papers.

• 2:45:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and all that stuff gets. All that gets swept under the rug, because the people that are doing it are part of the protected class.

• 2:45:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:40Joe Rogan?

  So they protect the parasites, like, this is my lamprey.

• 2:45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:43Joe Rogan?

  Like, don't.

• 2:45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, this is my baby.

• 2:45:46Joe Rogan?

  Like, the woman from Harvard, they fired her, but they gave her an equal paying job.

• 2:45:49Speaker 01

  It could also be, Joe, and might as well get in trouble for this, too.

• 2:45:53Joe Rogan?

  Let's go.

• 2:45:54Speaker 01

  Well, because women are more agreeable, they're more prone to manipulation by psychopaths, because their primary ethos is

• 2:46:08Speaker 01

  is nurturing.

• 2:46:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:11Speaker 01

  For a naive woman, every victim is a baby. It's like, fine, 90% of them are victims, you could even say that about criminals, you go to a run-of-the-mill prison, and there's gonna be people in there, and you heard their lives, you think, oh my god, no wonder.

• 2:46:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:46:27Speaker 01

  And then there's another core group that's like, oh, I see, I see who you are. You're, you're a.

• 2:46:38Speaker 01

  If I saw one, if I saw inside your skull for five seconds, I'd have post-traumatic stress disorder. I never recover, right? Those people don't exist. It's like, oh, oh, oh, yes, they exist.

• 2:46:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they exist.

• 2:46:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and they're, and they're very good at crying like infants.

• 2:46:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:57Speaker 01

  Right? And then the mothers, the naive mothers come flooding out. The women dominated the universities from the 1960s onward. It's like, in come the parasites and they're enabled. And what are they enabled by?

• 2:47:12Joe Rogan?

  Fascinating things to me is when parasites are confronted and they laugh. Like, one of the, the things about academic parasites, when you challenge their beliefs.

• 2:47:22Speaker 01

  That's contempt.

• 2:47:23Joe Rogan?

  You don't, you don't know what you're talking about. I saw this with the antisemitism on campus thing. When women were, these women were confronted by these statements like death to the Jews on campus and whether or not this, this is hate speech. And I saw it with, I believe it was Josh Hawley was.

• 2:47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:47:46Joe Rogan?

  With the woman was, he was saying some women can give birth and, and some, some men can give birth as well. Like, some men have period, like this, this kind of like, and with, I guess you're, you're, this line of questioning is very transphobic and opens people up to violence.

• 2:48:03Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:48:03Joe Rogan?

  With a laugh, with a laugh and a smile, a diminishing of your position by mockery.

• 2:48:09Speaker 01

  It's contempt, yeah, yeah.

• 2:48:10Joe Rogan?

  When they're, what they're saying doesn't make any fucking sense to anybody rational. But they're so, they're so embedded in this system that they really believe that they have the kind of control over Congress that they have over their classmates. They're, this is like standard behavior for them, mocking and dismissing other ideas that are counter to theirs.

• 2:48:32Speaker 01

  Right, well, and, and there's plenty of reward for that disseminated in the universities.

• 2:48:37Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:48:37Speaker 01

  And so that's part of their.

• 2:48:38Joe Rogan?

  How do you fix that?

• 2:48:40Speaker 01

  With Peterson Academy.

• 2:48:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:41Speaker 01

  No, I'm dead serious, man.

• 2:48:43Joe Rogan?

  I believe you, I believe you.

• 2:48:44Speaker 01

  It's not like I'm thrilled about the fact that Harvard is having a war with Donald Trump. And I'm less thrilled with the fact that I hope Donald Trump wins. I worked at Harvard. It was a great place. I'm not happy at all that these institutions have become what they've become. And if I could see a way forward to. Revitalizing them, then, but what are you gonna do? Like, the administration took over the universities and parasitized the tuition fees and the tax dollars. Then the woke mob parasitized the administration. And here we are. Now, what are you gonna do about that? All these tenured professors who are progressive, and they're way less progressive than the administrators.

• 2:49:29Speaker 01

  You're gonna fix that? How? How? Even in principle? I don't see it how. What, so what we decided to do, we've been working on this for 10 years, it's like, well, what do universities do? Well, they educate, they offer lectures, they allow, they have a place where people can congregate. They help people mature, they explain the world. They encourage people to aim up, they teach people to write. My son runs this essay app, we're trying to teach kids to write. We're integrating that with Peterson Academy, so they can learn to think. Like, that's our, that's our solution?

• 2:50:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:09Speaker 01

  Um, will it work? The world's a pretty dynamic place, it's working real well at the moment. You know, and-

• 2:50:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, people need some sort of an alternative to that system. If you recognize what that system is, especially if you're participating in it and you're opposed to all of it, and you're trapped in it, and it is of, it's vital to your success that you accept some of it. How else can you get through? How can you get this degree and maintain some level of sovereignty over your mind and your ideas? Like, it's a horrible trap. And I've met a lot of people that I think are very rational, reasonable people that get at least some of that stuck in their head.

• 2:50:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Well, when we did some research, trying to see what predicted politically correct authoritarianism, was last piece of research I did before my research lab, you know, ceased to be a viable entity, let's say. What predicted, so politically correct authoritarianism was that like hyper compassionate leftism, but conjoined with willingness to use force to put the doctrines forward, force and fear. So it's tyrannical compassion. That's exactly that. What are the predictors? Low verbal intelligence. That's the first one. Second one was being female. The third one was having a feminine temperament. The fourth one was ever having taken even one politically correct course. Wow.

• 2:51:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. And so I've thought that through for a long time. It's like, well, what's, what's the female, um, relationship? Because that's, that's a crucial one. The, the female dominated disciplines are the most woke by far. Why? So I think it's because of that basic ethos of compassion. All who cry are babies. Well, look, that's the right default for women. Yeah. You know, like wise women, my wife is one of these women. She was a very good mother. She never thought adult men were babies. Like, one of the things that's quite striking about my wife is that if you're a useless man, she doesn't feel sorry for

• 2:52:18Speaker 01

  you. You're not a baby. Now, she's really good at taking care of babies. And so she got to be, she's, she's discriminating in her empathy. And we're in a situation now where people think that indiscriminate empathy is a virtue. That's Eve's sin. Right. See, see Eve, literally, Eve wants to put the feminine ethos at the top of the hierarchy value. That replaces God. Right? And that causes the fall. And then Adam, he's such a cuck, that, that's exactly it, is that he goes along with her. He doesn't stand up and tell her that maybe she shouldn't be listening to poisonous serpents. He doesn't,

• 2:52:58Speaker 01

  he, he consumes with her what she delivers so that she'll be his friend. Cause you know how useful men like that are. And then when the fall happens, he complains to God that he made, that God made Eve and cursed him with her. That's the story. So it's not, it's not just women. It's, and we, we gotta get this straight. Women with their drive towards indiscriminate compassion, so that even the serpents are their children. It's men too, who won't say, they always say, yes, dear, whatever, whatever you want.

• 2:53:29Joe Rogan?

  Weak men.

• 2:53:30Speaker 01

  Weak men, weak men, who enable the, who don't help the women set boundaries. Now, you gotta do that as a man, you know, like, when you have a, when you and your wife have a baby, for the first nine months, every time the baby cries, it's right, right? You respond to a baby's cries as if it's right 100% of the time. Because human infants are so dependent and utterly unable to fend for themselves. So that sets up a very powerful feminine dynamic. It's like, if it cries, take care of it. Okay, so what are the men for? It's like, if it cries, take care of it, accept that.

• 2:54:11Speaker 01

  That's a false cry. And you see that with kids. They'll start playing with that by the time they're nine or 10 months old, right? Yes, of course. And so you differentiate. It's like, oh no, that's not a baby. That's a snake. Well, are you sure it's not a baby? It's like, nope, nope, snake, for sure. Snake, poisonous snake, in fact, right? Well, I'm feeling pretty sorry for it. It's like, save your compassion for the truly needy. And leave the snakes to me. Right? And Adam doesn't do that.

• 2:54:40Joe Rogan?

  Is it a function of a society that's almost, I wanna say too, successful and empathetic and there's too much abundance that you have more of this crying?

• 2:54:54Speaker 01

  Look, um, no, but you have more parasitical behavior.

• 2:54:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:54:59Speaker 01

  Why? Well, everyone's got pretty comfortable because we've been in a high trust society for a long time. It's like, oh, everybody's trustworthy. It's like, no, a few people in a few countries are trustworthy most of the time, and that's really hard.

• 2:55:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:55:12Speaker 01

  Right? And there's stringent preconditions. Right? So everyone's trustworthy. And now there's all these piles of wealth flying around everywhere. It's like. Parasite dream, especially when it's unguarded.

• 2:55:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:26Speaker 01

  So it's enabled by the women and unguarded by the men. And both are at fault, right? And that you see that in the Genesis account too. It's like Eve clutches the serpent to her breast, but Adam fails to help her distinguish.

• 2:55:39Joe Rogan?

  Plenty of these parasitic men as well.

• 2:55:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, they're well, they're the worst. There's the worst men cry victim and look for sympathy from women. That was, there was a famous mass murder, no, a serial killer who did that. The lawyer, very Bundy, Ted Bundy. You know what his trick was? He had a VW, if I remember correctly. He had a cast that he could take on and off. So he put his hood up, maybe it wasn't a VW. He put his hood up because his car didn't work. And he did it around places where he knew there were young women. And then he'd entice them to stop because, well, poor Ted. Because he's crippled and his car doesn't work. And then, haha, and then, well, and then the woman learned very painfully the difference between a monster and a baby. Right, brutal.

• 2:56:27Speaker 01

  He was a bad guy. There are some bad people. And a fair number of them like to dress in women's clothing, let's say.

• 2:56:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:56:37Joe Rogan?

  That's really uncomfortable, uncomfortable for people if they have this idea that's embedded in their consciousness about what's going on to accept that.

• 2:56:46Speaker 01

  Of course, of course, it's in fact, accepting that when that reality is thrust upon you unawares, you develop post-traumatic stress disorder. Right? Because it's naive people who encounter malevolence develop PTSD. That's the pathway.

• 2:57:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:01Speaker 01

  So if you want to make your children susceptible to PTSD, like all these kids that are triggered by everything.

• 2:57:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:57:07Speaker 01

  Make them extremely naive. And then let them encounter malevolence. Right? Because you're supposed to teach them to handle serpents. Right? To identify them and handle them. And that means they have to learn about the nature of the world. And the girls to differentiate between snakes and babies.

• 2:57:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:57:28Speaker 01

  Right, right, and babies and men. And the man who worms his way into your dreams because he's a dependent infant? He's a snake. And your sympathy is wasted on him. Yes, there certainly are. Man, I tell you, those riots that used to gather around me, you know, when, that was mostly 2017, before I stopped speaking at universities mostly.

• 2:57:53Speaker 01

  The women were pretty bad. Harpy city, man. And this self-righteous feminine, toxic compassion, just screeching out the top of its lungs. But the men that were with them, oh my god. I didn't even, I didn't want to be within three feet of them. You know, it's like, "I'll be your friend."

• 2:58:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:11Speaker 01

  You see those people on the net, talking to children. "I'll be your friend. When your family abandons you, I'm here for you." You know, they don't understand. "Not like me. We could be closer than anybody has been with you." Oh. That just barely scrapes the surface of awful. Like awful is a long, long ways down. Yep. So, so part of what's happened in the universities, and you know, it's a terrible thing to say, well,

• 2:58:43Speaker 01

  they, there's a lot of things. Storehouse of wealth, radical increase in the number of students served,

• 2:58:54Speaker 01

  radical feminization of the institutions, and weakness on the part of the men who should have been guardian of the gates. All of that. And is it repairable? I don't think so.

• 2:59:06Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 2:59:07Speaker 01

  I think once the parasites, once the parasites have the corpse, what are you gonna do? How are you gonna revive, you're gonna bring Lazarus back from the dead? You know, I don't think so. I think it's time for something new.

• 2:59:18Joe Rogan?

  You need academic dewormer.

• 2:59:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's what critical thinking was supposed to be, Joe.

• 2:59:25Joe Rogan?

  So you think it needs to... So something needs to be emerge like your academy as an alternative.

• 2:59:33Speaker 01

  Well, the thing is, it already is emerging, right? Because the universities, of course, they're gonna do this. As they spiral downward, they're gonna turn to cost cutting. Well, they're not gonna cut the administration, obviously, because they make the decisions about who's gonna be cut. So they're gonna turn to low-cost alternatives to having courses. And so they're already doing that. Let's put our courses online. Well, fair enough, except they're terrible. They're terrible. We got the best professors and the best production quality.

• 3:00:07Joe Rogan?

  And you've designed it for online versus just having a PowerPoint.

• 3:00:12Speaker 01

  Right, we have a plan mapped out. We'll have a full, the full equivalent of a four-year distribution of courses. We'll have that within, we think, two years, something like that. Four new courses a month at the moment. We're putting out thirty-two hours of original content a month. It's very, well, people can go look. It looks great, and that's because it's great. Michaela and her husband, they're unbelievably picky about the professors and about everything. They watch the social media, they watch the look, they watch the images, they watch the ads. You know, we're trying to make, do everything a hundred percent.

• 3:00:55Speaker 01

  And then we're trying to make it as inexpensive as possible. So we're raising money because we want to translate it into multiple languages. Because wouldn't it be lovely to offer that to the developing world?

• 3:01:06Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 3:01:07Speaker 01

  With free-market economics instead of Marxist economics? So that people could learn to be entrepreneurs? That'd be great for Africa, especially if we could get energy prices down. Then maybe everybody could be rich. And not just materially rich, right? Because that's not enough. If you're materially rich and you're spiritually poor, your money just serves to destroy you, and fast. So that's not wealth.

• 3:01:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:01:32Speaker 01

  And, yeah, right, you know that, you've met people that that's happened to.

• 3:01:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, a lot.

• 3:01:37Speaker 01

  Money is not the cure for poverty. No, you're naive if you think that.

• 3:01:41Joe Rogan?

  No, it's not the cure for happy for being discontent either. But it does offer you freedom, if you use it correctly.

• 3:01:49Speaker 01

  And opportunity.

• 3:01:50Joe Rogan?

  And opportunity. So it gives you some relief from stress, which can give you some kind of happiness, but it's not the goal.

• 3:01:59Speaker 01

  No, no, well, it has to be put in, it has to be put in an ethical framework, or it'll just... Look, money's opportunity, that's a way of thinking about it. And if you're going to the devil and you have money, you just go to the devil faster. I saw that lots of times in my clinical practice. And, you know, maybe if you're aim, if you're aiming upward, then money can be a force multiplier, and it can be, you know? You can make a good, you can, you can establish a solid institution that's, provides mentorship and opportunity for people. And actually, that's more, that's the most fun to do that. It's by far the most fun to do that, to make something of genuine value. Why wouldn't you do that?

• 3:02:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:02:38Speaker 01

  Only if you were cynical and unable, you, why not make something that works? That's a, that's much more entertaining, all things considered. And so, and we're trying to do this with Ark, and it's going real well, you know? And you were very helpful there, too, you know? That podcast that we did, there were lots of reasons that the climate apocalypse narrative has been falling radically apart. But that podcast that you and I did was definitely one of them. You know, and I've interviewed a lot of good scientists who, they're not climate skeptics. You know, that's a stupid term, and Lomborg is a good example of that.

• 3:03:11Joe Rogan?

  It is, climate denier is right up there with vaccine.

• 3:03:15Speaker 01

  That's such a manipulative phrase, yeah. It's like, oh, you're like the Nazis who object to Jews being baked. That's your argument, is it? Really? That's your argument, you scum rat? You're gonna use that as a moral lever? That's your level of ethos? That's your argumentation? You're gonna take the worst slur you can possibly imagine, and you're gonna use it to devastate someone's reputation publicly? Because you don't have a leg to stand on, because you're the kind of tyrant who uses fear to monger power. That's you. There's a psychological interpretation of the climate apocalypse scandal. And it's killing... It's destroying Germany. It's destroying the UK.

• 3:04:00Joe Rogan?

  Didn't Germany, like, didn't they shut down a bunch of their nuclear plants?

• 3:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and they replaced them with lignite coal. Right, the dirtiest burning coal. So they're in a situation where they pollute more for more unstable energy that's delivered by tyrants. While outsourcing their industry to China, it's a very bad idea. Right? Who's building coal plants at a rate that is so fast that everything the West does to ameliorate carbon is utterly irrelevant? Utterly irrelevant.

• 3:04:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and that's an uncomfortable truth. That these climate cultists just don't... They don't address. They won't even entertain any information contrary to the narrative. They won't even let it in.

• 3:04:48Speaker 01

  Of course not, because it upsets the game.

• 3:04:50Joe Rogan?

  No, yeah, most of the people that are involved in the game don't even understand the game. They don't even understand what's really, not just at stake, but the actual facts that they're arguing for.

• 3:05:02Speaker 01

  Well, Carney's a good example of this, in Canada, to return to that.

• 3:05:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:05Speaker 01

  You know?

• 3:05:06Joe Rogan?

  Is he gonna win?

• 3:05:10Joe Rogan?

  It seems like he's...

• 3:05:11Speaker 01

  The polls certainly indicate that.

• 3:05:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:13Speaker 01

  And maybe with a majority government. And I can see why. Canadians were accustomed to having everything go pretty well. And we could be morally superior to you Americans, because that was also fun. And we'll never, and we'll never forego that opportunity. And Trump has provided it in spades in the last month. So we look at Carney, and we don't pay any attention to politics, and we certainly don't read his goddamn book. And so we see someone who looks like a banker from the 1990s, when everything was just fine in Canada and Canadians were just as rich as Americans and the whole country was stable and peaceful. And we think, well, you know, we kind of made a mistake on Justin. Turned out he was a little incompetent, a little narcissistic. And maybe we shouldn't have voted for him just because he legalized marijuana, because that's actually what brought him into power the first time.

• 3:05:57Speaker 01

  And so we kind of made a mistake, but now, look, we've learned. And we're not going to be fooled by narcissistic pretenders. And Mark Carney used to be Governor of Bank of England, you know? And that's pretty good. That's a pretty good resume. And it certainly looks like that. And yet, he believes that 75% of the fossil fuels in the world should be left in the ground and that there's no, there's nothing that should guide your purchasing decision by force other than decarbonization.

• 3:06:24Joe Rogan?

  But it seemed to me, at least from an observer from afar, that Pierre was gaining steam and it looked like he was going to win.

• 3:06:32Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 3:06:33Joe Rogan?

  And they seemed to have taken the win right out of his sails.

• 3:06:36Speaker 01

  Well, two things happened. Trudeau resigned. Oh, yeah, the Liberals were headed for extinction. It was going to be the worst defeat of a governing party in Canada ever. They might have lost their official party status. So it was, they were done. Well, they pivoted, brought in Carney, who'd been advising Trudeau. He's put himself up as an outsider, a competent outsider. A lot of private experience in the private domain, you know? A steady hand at the helm. It's like you were Trudeau's economic advisor for 10 years.

• 3:07:13Speaker 01

  10 years. And there's going to be more of the same under you. And now you're pretending to be an industrialist, even though you're one of the leaders, the world's leading authorities on DEI, ESG, and net zero. That's Mark Carney. All you have to do is read his book, which people don't, of course, because it's a book. You know, first three chapters will do the trick. Well, now, either he's decided that every single thing he ever believed was wrong, right to the core, and hasn't apologized or let anyone know that. And now he's actually Mr. Industry, which is how he's presenting himself to Canadians, or...

• 3:07:51Speaker 01

  Or he believes what he's always believed.

• 3:07:52Joe Rogan?

  Or he's a wolf wearing grandma's dress.

• 3:07:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's a benevolent wolf. Well, that's, that's why the wolf wears grandma's dress, isn't it? It's like, there's no one nicer than me.

• 3:08:03Joe Rogan?

  So how does Ca- Canada correct course?

• 3:08:08Speaker 01

  Um, people either correct course by waking up or by experiencing severe pain. And it looks to me like we've chosen the severe pain route, you know? We already make sixty cents, we already produce sixty cents to every dollar you Americans produce, even though we were at parity ten years ago.

• 3:08:29Speaker 01

  And so after

• 3:08:32Speaker 01

  four more years of Carney, we could easily have that down to fifty cents. Spiraling housing prices, a lot of social instability in Canada, especially since after October 7th.

• 3:08:43Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that that's

• 3:08:43Speaker 01

  All my Jewish friends in Toronto are terrified. That's not fun. I don't like seeing that.

• 3:08:49Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 3:08:49Speaker 01

  That's, no, it's awful. It's awful. And all those psychopaths who've been parading around their moral virtues since October 7th, they're plenty emboldened, plenty.

• 3:09:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:01Speaker 01

  Plenty. And I'll give you a little example of Canada. So we had the English leadership debate a week ago. And the powers that be, who organized the debate, the legacy media types, with CBC radically involved, couldn't figure out how to exclude rebel media. You know, that right-wing news, kind of tabloidy news group from Canada, Ezra Levant, who's been buzzing about for ten years, causing trouble like a, like a right-wing tabloid

• 3:09:31Speaker 01

  journalist, which is what he is. Well, they didn't want him in the press scrum for the leaders after the debate. So they canceled it.

• 3:09:41Speaker 01

  They canceled the journalists' interviews of the four leading contenders for Prime Minister in Canada. Because some right-wing tabloid journalists, they've had a newspaper or a media empire for ten years. I don't care what you think of it. It's not the point. The point is they canceled.

• 3:10:03Speaker 01

  They cancelled the journalists' scrum after the English language debate.

• 3:10:06Joe Rogan?

  That's so fascinating.

• 3:10:07Speaker 01

  And no one complained.

• 3:10:08Joe Rogan?

  That, but that doesn't even make sense. Like, if you're in, if you're a presidential candidate, and you're encountering, or a prime minister candidate, and you're encountering someone that has an opposing perspective, you should have really good answers. That's it.

• 3:10:24Speaker 01

  Oh, look, if you're, if you're guys leading, why ask questions? That's the legacy media in Canada. It's the CBC.

• 3:10:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:10:31Speaker 01

  It's state-funded, right? Right to the core. 1.4, think about this, Joe. This is our bloody state media. It's so funny. 1.4 billion dollars in direct government subsidy and 600 million dollars in federal advertising per year. 2 billion dollars. Go to the CBC website on YouTube. You look at their last 20 videos. I'll guarantee that not a single one of them has more than 200 views. Right, which means the people who made the video clips didn't watch them. Right. For that's what you get for 2 billion dollars. Now, everyone in Canada who's older than 55 watches legacy media. And Poliev said he defund the CBC, so you can imagine they're not exactly covering him in a positive way.

• 3:11:15Joe Rogan?

  I watched the debate where he kept getting talked over.

• 3:11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Jagmeet Singh.

• 3:11:20Joe Rogan?

  Fascinating to watch.

• 3:11:21Speaker 01

  He's such fun with his pink turban. He's such a fashion icon. Luckily, he's gonna lose his own seat and his party's gonna be devastated. That's the socialists. They're gonna be devastated so badly that they won't have official party status.

• 3:11:33Joe Rogan?

  But it's incredible to watch that in Canada, where I've always thought at least your discourse is much more polite.

• 3:11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, was.

• 3:11:43Joe Rogan?

  Was.

• 3:11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We've got a lot of, there's a lot of mopping up to do in Canada. Well, in our, the country. You know, the man who started the Reform Party in Canada, so that was populist end of the Conservative movement 20 years ago, maybe a little longer, eventually reunited with the Conservatives. Ernest Manning, or Preston Manning, son of an Alberta premier, he was premier of Alberta for like 40 years. He wrote an article in The Globe and Mail, which was the, it's the Canadian liberal establishment newspaper. And I mean liberal by the classic, you know, old school. Small L liberal centrist sort of newspaper. Saying that Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan should have an immediate constitutional

• 3:12:27Speaker 01

  convention immediately on Carney's ascension to the throne. And Quebec doesn't want pipelines traversing its territory and Quebec. One of the, I don't know if you noticed this, but one of the participants in the debate was a Canadian separatist. We literally have a Canadian federal party. Federal. Localized in Quebec, whose stated intent is to break up the country.

• 3:12:55Joe Rogan?

  Hasn't that always been the case with Quebec though?

• 3:12:57Speaker 01

  For a good while it was provincial. Right? I mean, they had a provincial party, like a state party, right? Okay, fair enough. Have your state separatist party. It's for your state. Oh, no, we want to have a national party. We want to be represented in the House of Commons as separatists.

• 3:13:14Joe Rogan?

  Oof.

• 3:13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the country's in. It's very sad and I was hoping.

• 3:13:20Joe Rogan?

  They could be the 51st date.

• 3:13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, then, well, that's what, so two things, we're back to that.

• 3:13:25Joe Rogan?

  That was the big one.

• 3:13:26Speaker 01

  Carney, Carney showed up just in the nick of time to save the burning damsel from the train tracks or whatever the hell it is and.

• 3:13:33Joe Rogan?

  The rhetoric.

• 3:13:34Speaker 01

  And then Trump, he just timed it so badly and he didn't know. He didn't know. What would it would do? He didn't know, but that's also.

• 3:13:45Joe Rogan?

  How do you not know that people have national pride?

• 3:13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, he knew that, but he didn't know what the electoral consequences would be. He didn't know that that would shift them to the liberals so radically and he's going to pay for that because. Once Carney is elected, if that happens, Trump will not have a more seasoned enemy in the West.

• 3:14:08Joe Rogan?

  Boy.

• 3:14:09Speaker 01

  Right? Carney's very well connected, very, especially in Europe and the UK, very well. So, and.

• 3:14:17Joe Rogan?

  And Europe and the UK is a mess.

• 3:14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, you might say that. Oh, that's for sure.

• 3:14:22Joe Rogan?

  We've highlighted all the arrests in the UK over social media posts. And most people have no idea. Konstantin Kissin is great with explaining all that to people. It's so funny when he compares it to Russia. And he says, how many people got arrested in Russia? How many people you think got arrested in the UK? And most people are, oh, none, right? No, 4,000. Like, what?

• 3:14:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it's unbelievable.

• 3:14:48Joe Rogan?

  There's videos all over the internet about it.

• 3:14:49Speaker 01

  You just see this everywhere. So they've implemented these 20 mile an hour speed limits everywhere? And so...

• 3:14:55Joe Rogan?

  20 miles an hour?

• 3:14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, because, Joe...

• 3:14:58Joe Rogan?

  That's a bike.

• 3:14:59Speaker 01

  You don't really need a car. Like, what are you doing that's so important that you need a car? Like, if I have to go to a climate meeting, well, I get a car. But the peasants, they don't really need cars. They don't need heat either. Not that much heat. Maybe they can stop grandma from freezing.

• 3:15:14Joe Rogan?

  One of the fascinating things about Bernie Sanders and his anti-oligarch tour is they're doing it on private jets.

• 3:15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:15:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So we were in the UK not long ago for this art conference. And we rented a truck. And whenever it went over 20 miles an hour, it beeped at you, just like seatbelt things beep.

• 3:15:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God. 20 miles an hour.

• 3:15:43Speaker 01

  And then if you go more than 2 miles an hour of the speed limit and you get caught, then that knocks one-third of your license off. If you do that three times, you don't have a license for a year.

• 3:15:56Speaker 01

  Beep, beep, beep, beep. Climate, climate knocking, climate knocking. Yeah. You can tell tyrants, Joe, they use fear and compulsion. And they hate comedians and cars. Right. There's tyrant checklist. Hates cars, check. No sense of humor, check. Uses fear, check. Uses force, check. Psychopath. Right.

• 3:16:23Joe Rogan?

  I hate to end this on a bleak note.

• 3:16:25Speaker 01

  Well, let's end it on a positive note.

• 3:16:27Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 3:16:28Speaker 01

  Okay, so what's positive?

• 3:16:31Speaker 01

  Young people are flocking back to churches across the West. And more to the conservative churches. And the only thing we have to buttress us into the future against the Islamists and the Marxists and the nihilists and hedonists is our return to our core traditions. Without that, we're done. And so that's happening. And in big numbers. And so that's really quite something.

• 3:17:00Speaker 01

  The back has been broken of the climate apocalypse narrative. There's plenty of mopping up to do, but half the people know that there's something rotten in the state of Denmark and that that particular apocalypse is probably not worth giving up all your freedoms for.

• 3:17:17Speaker 01

  We've seen a lot of progress on the arc front. Like, a lot of the things that we've been putting forward, the better story, that's a return to

• 3:17:27Speaker 01

  the foundations of Western civilization that made our

• 3:17:31Speaker 01

  our society the sort of place that dispossessed people will go to voluntarily. Right? There's lots of people who are starting to understand that that's seriously worth preserving. Right? Energy executives are waking up, as far as I can see, to the fact that they could help the world's poor in a serious way. And if they want to moralize, that would be a, if they want to act morally, that would be a good place to start. There's lots of people who are working to produce abundance. Your country, the US, you guys are unbelievably good at that. Way better than any other country in the world. And

• 3:18:07Speaker 01

  you generally deliver in times of crisis. And you might just do that again. And so and then I would say underneath all that, you know, you said you, you're pretty happy to encourage people, you're very happy when you hear that your show is being helpful to people and...

• 3:18:27Speaker 01

  There's lots of people who are consciously trying to aim up, and more and more of them all the time. And if enough of, enough of, enough people do that, we won't need to learn through pain, and we can bring abundance everywhere in the world, and we can make the next 50 years an unparalleled success. And we need, we need the faith and courage of Joshua and Caleb to do that. Of course, the future is full of giants and disasters. But if we aim up and we speak the words of truth that make good order out of chaos, then anything's possible.

• 3:19:10Joe Rogan?

  All right. Beautiful. Always enjoy this. Always enjoy our conversations. I appreciate you very much. Appreciate our friendship. It's been great knowing you all these years and watching this crazy journey that you've been on. I'm glad you're doing great.

• 3:19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, Joe. Same thing for you, man. Like, thanks a lot. And thanks for your help with Peterson Academy, too.

• 3:19:33Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure.

• 3:19:33Speaker 01

  Very helpful.

• 3:19:34Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 3:19:35Speaker 01

  Much appreciated.