My Son Converted to Islam for His Girlfriend

On today’s episode, we hear about: · A woman struggling with her son’s decision to convert to Islam · A man unsure how to grow up and be a good husband · An employee wondering how to respect his new boss Next Steps: 📞 Ask John a question! Call 844-693-3291 or send us a message. 📚 Check out Jocko Willink’s book Discipline Equals Freedom 📚 Building a Non-Anxious Life 📝 Anxiety Test 📚 Own Your Past, Change Your Future ❓ Questions for Humans Conversation Cards  💭 John's Free Guided Meditation  🤘🏼 The Dr. John Delony Show Merch Connect With Our Sponsors: · Get 10% off your first month of BetterHelp. · Get up to 40% off with code DELONY at Cozy Earth.   · Get 20% off when you join DeleteMe.  · Go to Hallow for a 90-day free trial.  · Get 20% off when you visit Helix Sleep and take the sleep quiz to see what you need!  · Get 25% for LIFE at Thorne.    · Head over to Poncho Outdoors to try the best outdoor performance shirt for yourself! Explore More From Ramsey Network: 🎙️ The Ramsey Show 💸 The Ramsey Show Highlights 🍸 Smart Money Happy Hour 💡 The Rachel Cruze Show 💰 George Kamel 🪑 Front Row Seat with Ken Coleman 📈 EntreLeadership Ramsey Solutions Privacy Policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Speaker 00

  I'm having a hard time coping with my son's recent conversion to Islam. The thing about this is, um, it bothers me so much because he was kinda forced into that.

• 0:17Dr. John Delony?

  Let me ask you this hard question, and just be honest with me.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 0:20Dr. John Delony?

  How much of this feels like he's choosing her over you?

• 0:28Dr. John Delony?

  What up? What's up? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show.

• 0:35Dr. John Delony?

  Taking calls from all over the planet about your mental and emotional health, and your relationships, and your parents, and your kids, and whatever else you've got going on in your life. JohnDeloney.com, D-E-L-O-N-Y. JohnDeloney.com/ask. And fill out the form if you want to be on the show. I'd love to have you. By the way, I've gotten more and more recently, um, long questions on social media. I don't answer any of those, ever. So, if you want to be on the show, JohnDeloney.com/ask is the way to get on. All right, Chicago, let's talk to Heidi. What's up, Heidi?

• 1:12Speaker 00

  Hi, John.

• 1:13Dr. John Delony?

  How are you, lady?

• 1:14Speaker 00

  I'm good. How are you?

• 1:16Dr. John Delony?

  Doing all right, doing all right. What can I do for you today? How we doing?

• 1:20Speaker 00

  I'm a little nervous, so...

• 1:22Dr. John Delony?

  Ah, you're good. Ah, I got you, I got you.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  So, I'm gonna read off, um, what I'm thinking, and then we can go from there.

• 1:31Dr. John Delony?

  Perfect.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  Okay. Oh, okay. So, I'm having a hard time coping with, um, my son's recent conversion to Islam.

• 1:43Dr. John Delony?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45Speaker 00

  Uh, it's a little overwhelming. I'm a Baptist daughter. I'm a Christian, so you can see how that feels.

• 1:53Dr. John Delony?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:55Speaker 00

  Um, the thing about this is, um, it bothers me so much

• 2:02Speaker 00

  because he was kinda forced into that. I guess, um, the culture is, if you get, you know, if you meet a Muslim lady as the guy, you must convert. You know, there's no choice there. So, it's kinda like a condition, um, for their relationship. And it bothers me so much, and I just don't know how to cope with that.

• 2:27Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm.

• 2:31Dr. John Delony?

  I can hear it on you, I'm sorry. That's scary, huh? Not scary that he converted to Islam, but scary that you feel like you're losing your son, huh?

• 2:39Speaker 00

  Yes, um, and it hurts me, um, it hurts a lot the fact that

• 2:47Speaker 00

  he doesn't, like, we raised him to believe in Jesus Christ.

• 2:52Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  And he said, "Oh, no, Jesus is not the son of God, and Jesus is not God," and, you know, the eternity and all that.

• 3:02Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 3:05Dr. John Delony?

  So I-

• 3:05Speaker 00

  And I'm like, "How can you say that?"

• 3:07Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 3:11Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  So how do I cope with this? How do I, I know I can change it, right?

• 3:17Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 00

  But how do I cope with this?

• 3:20Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, I don't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't just wanna cope.

• 3:27Dr. John Delony?

  Coping is like treading water.

• 3:31Dr. John Delony?

  I don't wanna just tread water. I wanna eventually swim to shore. I wanna eventually get back on the boat.

• 3:38Dr. John Delony?

  You tread water after the shipwreck, but eventually, we're gonna try to make our way back to shore, right?

• 3:45Speaker 00

  Exactly. And I don't wanna hold resentment, because I know he's a good guy, and the girl, the girl is awesome. She's really good.

• 3:53Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, I know, like, some of, I got some great, great friends who are, like, who are Muslim. Like, great, great, great, great friends. So, um, let me ask you this hard question, and just be honest with me.

• 4:05Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:06Dr. John Delony?

  How much of this feels like he's choosing her over you?

• 4:11Speaker 00

  None.

• 4:12Dr. John Delony?

  None? Okay.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  None.

• 4:13Dr. John Delony?

  So you, you feel good, like, "Hey, my boy's supposed to meet a woman and go get married," and, like, that's the way that's supposed to be. So there's none of that?

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Of course, yes, of course.

• 4:21Dr. John Delony?

  All right. So how much of this is, I'm just trying to peel the layers back on this onion here. How much of this is you are genuinely concerned for his eternity, because the faith tradition you follow says if he denounces Jesus, that he's gonna spend eternity in X, Y, Z?

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Yes, I'm, I'm, I'm, um, because I was raised that way, right? I'm Christian.

• 4:49Dr. John Delony?

  No, no, no, I don't care how you were raised. We're all raised ways that we do differently. I'm, I'm just trying to get to the like, are you concerned that a truck is coming right at your son and he's about to get run over?

• 5:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:02Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 5:04Dr. John Delony?

  Do you love your boy?

• 5:06Speaker 00

  I do, with all my heart.

• 5:08Dr. John Delony?

  Do you want a relationship with him?

• 5:11Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 5:12Dr. John Delony?

  Do you want a relationship with his, his soon to be new wife?

• 5:16Speaker 00

  Yes, I do.

• 5:16Dr. John Delony?

  Do you want a relationship with his grandkids?

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 5:20Dr. John Delony?

  Okay, alright, so tho- those are all important things and I've dealt with each one of those, like, no, I don't want any more relationship with him. If he said this, I'm out. If she converts to this, I quit. Like, she's not welcome in our house anymore, all that, okay? So, any self-respecting person who converts to a new religion, who has any sort of change that's different from the picture their mom or dad had for their life, any person who makes a big shift, who I think is a person of integrity, understands that there's gonna be a season of grief and that's okay. That's a way of mom and dad saying, "I had a picture for you and I loved you and I need a minute because that picture's different." Okay?

• 6:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:06Dr. John Delony?

  And so, there's something about you sitting down with him, and this is a big shock, and to hear somebody say about your beloved Jesus, "I don't believe in that anymore." Even if part of you thinks, "Yeah, you still do, but you're doing this just for her," like, whatever you think, okay?

• 6:22Dr. John Delony?

  Once that shock is over, I think it is important for you to take him and her out for breakfast one day, or lunch one day, and say, "I just, I wrote some things down and I want y'all to listen to me."

• 6:36Dr. John Delony?

  And then to say, "I love you, I'm gonna be the best grandma you've ever met in your life," and look at his fiancee or new wife, and say, "I think you're amazing, I'm so glad my son met you."

• 6:51Dr. John Delony?

  I think you're gonna be a great mother, all that stuff. And then say, "I believe in Jesus,

• 6:59Dr. John Delony?

  and I would not be a good mother, I wouldn't be a good mother-in-law if I didn't tell you both, I'm worried about your future salvation." And so, there's gonna be times when I'm sad because I believe in Jesus, and it makes me sad because my belief, my tradition, my faith tradition says, "This is what happens when you die and you don't believe in X, Y, or Z." And if they're people of integrity, they will exhale and say, "We get that. I get it.

• 7:27Dr. John Delony?

  And we're not doing this to hurt you, we're not doing this to poke at you, we're not doing this to rub this in your face. Your pain and grief is real, and we get that. And we also am grateful that you're gonna be a great mother, grandmother."

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  Okay, well, I appreciate it. I mean, it just sounds...

• 7:48Dr. John Delony?

  Here's the deal...

• 7:49Speaker 00

  It's towards me that it has to be a condition, you know?

• 7:52Dr. John Delony?

  I know.

• 7:53Speaker 00

  And where's the love?

• 7:56Dr. John Delony?

  What do you mean?

• 7:57Speaker 00

  Shouldn't be love be first? Before religion? Shouldn't...

• 8:03Dr. John Delony?

  It sounds like he's...

• 8:04Speaker 00

  I wanna be with you because I love you.

• 8:05Dr. John Delony?

  It sounds like he's fallen head over heels for this woman. And so, because he loves her so much, he's then gonna change his faith.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Right, that hurts me a lot.

• 8:14Dr. John Delony?

  It sounds like love came... It did come first.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  That hurts me a lot.

• 8:20Dr. John Delony?

  Most would say, "Faith comes before love."

• 8:30Dr. John Delony?

  Where's your hurt come from? Heidi, where's your hurt come from?

• 8:34Speaker 00

  My hurt comes from... What do you mean when you say that?

• 8:42Dr. John Delony?

  I can hear your hurt. Is it just that your son is no longer identifying as Christian? He's identifying as Muslim?

• 8:50Speaker 00

  Right, you know, what gets me mad is that they're pretenders. That's another issue, because if you're really a Muslim, and for you, it's important that you follow the faith, then you should be following it 100%. They don't follow it 100%, both of them.

• 9:09Dr. John Delony?

  So, can I make a recommendation to you?

• 9:12Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:13Dr. John Delony?

  I would get out of his head.

• 9:18Dr. John Delony?

  Because what's happening is you're spending a lot of energy inside of trying to get inside of his head and try to wonder why he's doing what he's doing and how he's doing and what he's doing and why he's not doing what he's doing good enough and all that. And what you're doing is you're making yourself crazy because you'll never know what's going on inside his heart and mind. You'll never know what's going on in his relationship.

• 9:37Dr. John Delony?

  Ever. You can only know what's going on in your heart and mind.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:45Dr. John Delony?

  And anytime you sit down with him, if you want a relationship with him, that's why I asked that question because it's important. Often in this situation, you know, if there's somebody who's Muslim who converts to Christianity, parents say, "I don't want you in my life." Or someone who's Christian and like someone who goes to a Baptist church, converts to Catholicism, somebody says, "I don't want, you're not my kid anymore." And that's a different conversation. That doesn't sound like what you want.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  No, that's not what I want.

• 10:09Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Then I want you to lead relationship first.

• 10:15Dr. John Delony?

  "I will love you guys to the end of time." And I'm also Heidi from Chicago, so I'm opinionated and I'm gonna speak my mind, but know that I'm always speaking it because I love you. And if you feel that way, say, "Hey, if you're converting to Muslim, you want me to go all in."

• 10:32Speaker 00

  Exactly, that's what I'm thinking.

• 10:34Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 10:36Speaker 00

  You know, because then you're being a hypocrite.

• 10:38Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 10:42Dr. John Delony?

  It's hard to go at relationship, full relationships, when you go judgment first.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:50Dr. John Delony?

  "I would love you to flip it around and go curiosity first."

• 10:55Dr. John Delony?

  "I think you're an amazing woman. I think you're my son and I love you." "Tell me about this. I don't understand it." "Well, Mom, we had to do this because of this and this and this." "Well, you don't even live like that. How do you square that up? Teach me about that."

• 11:12Dr. John Delony?

  See how you're going curiosity first instead of you hypocrites? Right. Somebody starts calling me a hypocrite, I'm out. I'm out. If somebody asks me questions and asks me to teach them about something, or why I'm doing something, I'm in on that. Somebody sits down and says, "Hey, I love you, and I'm gonna love you to the end of time. I'm gonna be the best grandma you ever met in your life.

• 11:33Dr. John Delony?

  But you gotta teach me about this. I don't understand this at all." And by the way, I believe in this particular faith and I believe in it till the end of time. And I just gotta tell you,

• 11:49Dr. John Delony?

  I'm gonna be heartbroken because I'm worried about your soul in eternity.

• 11:53Dr. John Delony?

  And they may look at you and say, "We're worried about your soul in eternity." And we'll be like, "Ah, we're all worried about each other's souls. Pass the pancakes."

• 12:01Dr. John Delony?

  But let's lead relationship first, if that's what you want. Let's lead curiosity first, and let's get out of your son's head trying to guess why, make up stories about why he's doing what he's doing, and make up stories about why they're not doing what they're not doing, and to judge those stories that you've made up, it's just a way to be exhausted.

• 12:22Dr. John Delony?

  And for everybody listening, I've got some amazing Muslim friends, and they just...

• 12:29Dr. John Delony?

  I've got some amazing Christian friends.

• 12:33Dr. John Delony?

  And I've chosen to lead relationship first. My friends know where I stand. They know I'm Christian. They know where I stand on stuff. They know my faith, but they also know, everybody's welcome at my house. And I'm glad to hear that from you, Heidi. And by the way, you're allowed to have your heart broken, that your son is no longer in the faith you raised him in. You're allowed to be heartbroken about that. And hopefully, he's a son of integrity that understands why his mom's heart's broken.

• 12:55Dr. John Delony?

  It's both and.

• 12:59Dr. John Delony?

  Hopefully, that's the case. Thank you for the call, my sister. I appreciate that. I don't want you just to cope. I want you to grieve this. I want you to be really sad. And then I want you to go do the next right thing.

• 13:12Dr. John Delony?

  But I think all of this is get out of his head and have some real conversation over a meal, and let them both know, "I'm gonna be the best grandma you ever had. I'm gonna give my opinion, because I'm an opinionated Chicago woman." And

• 13:26Dr. John Delony?

  I need y'all to teach me about a few things, because I don't understand why y'all are doing what you're doing. That is a recipe for a great long-term.

• 13:36Dr. John Delony?

  Relationship. When we come back, a man wonders how to end the mother-son relationship dynamic between him and his fiancee. Poncho is back as a supporter of this show and I'm super jazzed about it. If you've seen me on stages across the country, if you're watching me on this show, check me out right now, or recently even saw me when I was out fishing with my son in the surf during a recent trip to Gulf Shores, sometimes you might even see me mowing my yard out here in Nashville. I'm almost always wearing Poncho shirts. Poncho makes the absolute best outdoor performance shirts for men, period. Whether they're sponsoring this show or not, you're gonna almost always see me wearing Poncho because I love their stuff.

• 14:20Dr. John Delony?

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• 15:05Dr. John Delony?

  And trust me, Poncho Ultra Light shirts will turn into a summer essential for you too. All right, let's go out to Philadelphia where Kelly was born and raised, and the playground is where she spent most of her days, and talk to James. What's up, James?

• 15:20Speaker 02

  Hi, what's going on, Dr. John?

• 15:23Dr. John Delony?

  What's up, man? How we doing?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  I'm pretty good, man.

• 15:26Dr. John Delony?

  Excellent.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  A little nervous. A little nervous.

• 15:29Dr. John Delony?

  Ah, don't be good. You're all good, man. You're all good.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  All right. Me and my fiancee, we've been dating for about, let's say, eight years. In October, we started dating in 2017. I've had a long history of like infidelity and porn issues and stuff like that. And, uh, but, um...

• 15:56Speaker 02

  In like twenty twenty three, I decided to kick that habit and uh try to get myself better. And get some actual help and stuff and uh adopted a new religion and that helped a lot. Um, but now uh I've been dealing with myself and uh it's been uh hurting her in little small ways. Uh it's kinda like emotionally, she's like carrying me. Uh like a mother. Um, I have trouble initiating things. I forget a lot of stuff. Um, like initiating connection and stuff like that.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  And then she'll like often she'll have to remind me to do certain things, just even basic like hygiene and you know, telling me about doors around the house and uh, you know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not good at like being independent. Making good decisions and stuff like that, especially like finances and stuff like that as well. Uh, I'm just, you know, she uh, she's a big fan of yours. She'll, she'll watch your videos, but like every day.

• 17:04Dr. John Delony?

  Hmm.

• 17:05Speaker 02

  And uh, I'll look at him and I, I just figured you're like, you're a, you're a good guy.

• 17:10Dr. John Delony?

  I appreciate that.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:12Dr. John Delony?

  So what, what, what's your like bottom line question?

• 17:17Speaker 02

  Um, I wanna be more independent. I wanna feel more like a man. I wanna, you know, I wanna be able to step up. I feel like I'm gonna lose her. Um, you know, I don't wanna keep on, keep her waiting around and having to carry me. And uh, you know, I always, I always feel like I have this mental overload. And I figured you, you might be able to help and try to look into what can I do to be able to be able to be uh, step up as a better partner. But uh, but potentially a husband.

• 17:46Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 17:48Dr. John Delony?

  I mean, y'all, y'all been, she been your fiance for eight years?

• 17:52Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I, I engaged, uh, I asked her to marry me last year, but we've been together for, well, we'll be eight years in October.

• 18:00Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. And say that one more time. How long you been engaged?

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Uh, about a year.

• 18:05Dr. John Delony?

  About a year, okay.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 18:06Dr. John Delony?

  Um, and she's, you say she's acting more like your mom than your fiance?

• 18:13Speaker 02

  I would say so, yeah. It doesn't feel like an equal partnership. You know, I mean, there's good things about me, but it's the, it's the thing that we uh often fight about, which is what she'll like bring up.

• 18:26Dr. John Delony?

  Alright, I wanna, I wanna move her off to the side for a second and just, and just have a straight up conversation, just two guys, is that cool?

• 18:32Speaker 02

  Hmm, well, it's just me right now.

• 18:34Dr. John Delony?

  That's, that's what I mean, just me and you, just me and you. And, and I need you to hear me say, I am no better than you, okay? I'm older than you and I'm still trying to be the best dad and husband I can be and I don't get it right a lot. Okay, so when I talk direct to you, I, I don't want you to say like I'm like some superior or something or other, I'm sitting in some taller chair than you're in, okay? There's just two guys sitting across the table, we just happen to be on a phone, is that cool?

• 19:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:01Dr. John Delony?

  Alright, um.

• 19:05Dr. John Delony?

  The reason she's acting like your mom is because she has to, so my question for you is, what is it about you inside your chest? Make a fist in your hand right now, can you make a fist?

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:15Dr. John Delony?

  Alright, I want you to put that right square in the middle of your chest and hold it there, okay?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:21Dr. John Delony?

  What is it about this inside the middle of your chest?

• 19:26Dr. John Delony?

  That you don't feel like you're worth?

• 19:30Dr. John Delony?

  Basic hygiene, showering, brushing your teeth, putting on deodorant? What is it about that hole inside the middle of your chest that you don't feel like, uh,

• 19:41Dr. John Delony?

  you're worth getting a full-time job, getting two full-time jobs because you're just in your twenties, you're young? What is it about that hole in the middle of your chest that you don't handle your money right? Like, at the end of the day, why do you feel like you're not worth even getting up and brushing your teeth for?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Well, like I honestly say, for a long time, especially growing up, um, that I wish I could let go because I'm getting too old for this.

• 20:09Dr. John Delony?

  I don't know, we're not, we're not gonna get to that stuff yet, you already, you already, you already shamed yourself halfway through that answer.

• 20:18Dr. John Delony?

  You see what I'm saying? Like you couldn't even get the answer all the way out before you were like, ah stupid, I should be old by now, I, I just wanna hear you for a second, okay?

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 20:27Dr. John Delony?

  Where does that story come from that you're not even worth brushing your teeth for?

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Uh, mediocrity. Being okay with mediocrity.

• 20:37Dr. John Delony?

  Talk, talk directly into your phone for me.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Uh, dealing with, uh, being okay with mediocrity.

• 20:43Dr. John Delony?

  I know, but where does that come from? That's a story. Is your old man still around?

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Uh, my biological father isn't here anymore. That was when I was very young, but my, uh, stepdad is still, he's still living, yeah.

• 21:00Dr. John Delony?

  Did he have high expectations for you? Did he love you well?

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Uh,

• 21:08Speaker 02

  I, I, I would believe he loves me.

• 21:11Dr. John Delony?

  That's not, that's not what I asked you. Did he love you well? Did he hug you? Did he tell you he's proud of you? Did he give you a good example for you to follow on how to treat a, a woman, how to treat a, a wife?

• 21:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 21:23Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 21:26Dr. John Delony?

  What about your mom? What's your relationship with her?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  It's,

• 21:34Speaker 02

  it's okay, I guess. We're, we're, uh, I want to say cordial, but we're not like best of friends.

• 21:40Dr. John Delony?

  Well, she, you shouldn't be friends. She's your mom.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, like a, like a close relationship, but we, we talk and stuff.

• 21:48Dr. John Delony?

  Where's your, where's your bio dad? He leave or he passed away?

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Well, he passed away.

• 21:53Dr. John Delony?

  How'd he die?

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Uh, that's, it's, uh, I'm sure of, uh,

• 22:01Speaker 02

  the, uh,

• 22:03Speaker 02

  police say it's one thing, but the family, like my family, that's another thing. So it's never really been.

• 22:09Dr. John Delony?

  What, what'd the police say?

• 22:11Speaker 02

  Uh, they said it was a, a suicide.

• 22:14Dr. John Delony?

  Okay.

• 22:16Dr. John Delony?

  How old were you?

• 22:18Speaker 02

  I was a baby. Uh, uh, probably like a few months.

• 22:24Dr. John Delony?

  So you, you may know this, and I'm preaching to the choir here, but I just want to say it for everybody listening. And you may not know this, and so this may be the first time you're hearing this. If you're a little baby, and your dad dies, especially a violent death, whether he was murdered by somebody, whether he died by suicide,

• 22:44Dr. John Delony?

  and your mom, who's caring for an infant, suddenly loses her ride or die, in a violent, scary way,

• 22:55Dr. John Delony?

  your body will take that on. That will be in your nervous system, and the way you respond to threats, the way you respond to discomfort, the way you respond to peace.

• 23:08Dr. John Delony?

  And if you had men coming in and out of your life when you were a young kid, different boyfriends, different, different stepfathers, that treated your mom a kind of way,

• 23:19Dr. John Delony?

  then you had a stepfather move in a little bit more permanently, that he was fine, he was mediocre, he didn't step in and try to be a dad, but he didn't, he didn't do anything bad, or anything like that. And your mom's just trying to been surviving for the last 15 or 20 years.

• 23:36Dr. John Delony?

  The first thing I want you to do is give James a little bit of peace, because you survived, okay?

• 23:44Dr. John Delony?

  Are we square on that? Yeah, I am. How old are you right now? 28. 28 years old. Can you just say out loud, "My name is James, I'm 28 and I survived?"

• 23:57Dr. John Delony?

  Hi, my name is James, I'm 28, and I survived. Period.

• 24:04Dr. John Delony?

  Now here's the deal. You survived, and the things you had to do as a kid to survive are now going to be the things that blow up your adulthood. So what you have to do is decide, I'm through surviving,

• 24:19Dr. John Delony?

  and now I'm going to begin to heal, and I'm going to become a grown man.

• 24:26Dr. John Delony?

  And the challenge for you is you don't have a great picture of what that even looks like. All you have is the internet, you got, hopefully you have a, the religion that you adopted, you've got some good mentors and role models. Most young men, 21 to 31, that don't have good male role models in their life are getting it from the internet.

• 24:51Dr. John Delony?

  And that's why we get all kind of screwy stuff.

• 24:56Dr. John Delony?

  But it sounds like this woman loves you, is that fair?

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely.

• 25:01Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. She loves you so long, she's hung on for eight years since you were 20 years old. But also she's still having to remind you to do basic things. And so the way that you are gonna get your feet underneath you and begin to stand up, is you're gonna begin to make a series of promises to yourself and you're gonna keep your promises to yourself. Because the first thing you have to do is begin to trust you, and you don't trust you, you don't even trust yourself to put on deodorant, you don't even trust yourself to brush your teeth, much less be the husband that you want to be, be the future father that you want to be one day. Fair?

• 25:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:39Dr. John Delony?

  Where do you work right now?

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Uh, I work in a warehouse.

• 25:43Dr. John Delony?

  What do you do in that warehouse?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Uh, cake baking.

• 25:46Dr. John Delony?

  What do you want to do one day?

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Uh, well, my dream is, uh, I may be a professional baker or pastry chef.

• 25:56Dr. John Delony?

  A pastry chef?

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:58Dr. John Delony?

  Name one thing you've done in the past year to get you closer to that dream.

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 26:05Dr. John Delony?

  Nothing?

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:07Dr. John Delony?

  So, starting tomorrow, you begin, once a week, getting online and getting a recipe, and going and cooking a pastry for you and your wife, I mean you and your fiancee. Fair?

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, do that.

• 26:23Dr. John Delony?

  You're gonna begin, you're gonna put it on a calendar and you're gonna ask her, "Please don't miss this, I'm gonna make fresh coffee and I'm gonna make us a pastry." Every, once a week, "I'm gonna practice it and I'm gonna make it."

• 26:35Dr. John Delony?

  Because the dream you have of being a pastry chef, you don't know how to cook it, you don't know how to run a business, you don't even know what that life feels like or looks like, you just like the picture of what that looks like. And so we're gonna take a tiny, tiny step.

• 26:49Dr. John Delony?

  And if you want to be really out there, like, like truly step into it, find somebody from a friend of a friend of a friend's dad, who maybe is a chef for a living, or is a pastry chef for a living, and say, "I want to take you out, sir, for coffee. I want to take you out, ma'am, for coffee, and I want to learn about your job."

• 27:13Dr. John Delony?

  How do you even get qualified for this? How'd you step into this role? What does that even look like? Or, instead of throwing boxes in a warehouse, being a picker at a warehouse, find two pastry chefs, like, two pastry places, and just take out the trash and clean the floors there. And begin to practice and learn. You see what I'm saying? Hmm, I hear ya. This is you writing down on a piece of paper, "I want to do this. So by the end of this year, I will have made 52 of my own pastries and shared them with my fiance. I'm gonna do all the dishes. I'm gonna clean up all the dishes. This house is gonna look spick and span when I get done, but I'm gonna do the work from start to finish. I'm gonna go buy my own ingredients. And some of these recipes are gonna be a disaster,

• 27:57Dr. John Delony?

  and when they taste disgusting, we're all gonna laugh about it. We're gonna have a good time with it, because failure's gonna be part of it. And when they're delicious, I'm gonna put a checkmark by that one, and maybe I'll make one for my mom, too, once I get it down. And over the next year, I want to have three meetings with somebody who does pastry stuff for a living. And I'm gonna send out 10 resumes for various pastry places in the community. I'm gonna put a checklist on a note card, no apps, no nothing. I'm gonna put a checklist on a note card in my mirror, and I'm going to do this stuff every day. Whether that's 10 push-ups, 10 air squats, and 10 jumping jacks, sets of five, I'm gonna do something movement-wise. I'm gonna brush my teeth. I'm gonna do those things. You get what I'm saying? Yeah.

• 28:42Dr. John Delony?

  It's about you beginning to take ownership of your life. Do you have a pen? Uh, not on me right now. All right. I want you to remember this. There's a book that I think is one of the greatest mental health books of all time. And it's written by my buddy Jocko Willink. It's called Discipline Equals Freedom.

• 29:03Dr. John Delony?

  It's the easiest book to read ever. And it's a masterpiece, I think, because there's a ton of wisdom and depth in that book. I want you to get it today, okay? Okay. And you can get it on Spotify, audiobook, or you can buy the hardback cover. I would buy the hardback if I was you. But it's a simple, simple, simple read. Okay? But I want you to follow that book page by page. And it's not even a lot of pages in it, okay? Okay. It's a very easy read.

• 29:35Dr. John Delony?

  Your girlfriend/fiance/future wife is going to treat you like a mother

• 29:42Dr. John Delony?

  until she doesn't have to.

• 29:48Dr. John Delony?

  And so the way to change the mother-son dynamic is to become the man that you want to be. Here's the final homework you got. Okay, you ready? Mm-hmm. You have to find two or three men that you respect and ask them if they'll start having breakfast with you once a week. Because you have to put a couple of men in your life that are years ahead of you.

• 30:09Dr. John Delony?

  Who are the dads you want to be? Who are the husbands you want to be? Who are the workers that you want to become? And you're going to have to walk alongside them and build a relationship with them because you don't have a good picture of what this looks like.

• 30:23Dr. John Delony?

  I'm gonna give you one more thing I want you to do. Hang on the line, I'm gonna hook you up with three months from my friends at BetterHelp. I want you to start going to counseling. I'm gonna give it to you for free for three months and you can do it on your computer. You can just FaceTime the person or Zoom or whatever, whatever digital interface it is. You can even do it on your phone. And I want you to start talking about your childhood and start digging into some of this stuff, okay? So it's game on. Today's day one, James, of you saying, "I survived. 28 years old. It's way past time, but we can only start from where we are. I'm gonna start becoming the man I want to become."

• 31:01Dr. John Delony?

  Discipline will equal freedom. Tiny, tiny wins. Doing the next right thing. Taking little steps towards this dream I have.

• 31:12Dr. John Delony?

  And that starts with brushing your teeth in the morning. It starts with seeing a counselor and being vulnerable. It starts with doing pushups in the morning. Day one, brother. Thanks for the call. Game on. When we come back, a man wonders how to give the appropriate amount of respect to his new boss. Everybody's talking about AI and the internets and your digital privacy. And I want to give you a quick word about my friends at Delete Me. Does anyone else feel like our digital footprints are starting to feel like digital trails leading bad scam artists right back to us? Right now, scammers are using phishing attacks with a PH where they try to trick you into giving them something by pretending to know you.

• 31:55Dr. John Delony?

  You might get an email or a text or a phone call and the person or the AI bot more than likely on the other end sounds like someone who's trying to help you out. They're not. And with these new technological advancements that are moving way faster than any of us can comprehend, no one is really safe. So what are we supposed to do? You can start controlling what you can. You can learn about how to be careful online and offline with your digital privacy and you can sign up with Delete Me. I use and recommend Delete Me because they work in the background to reduce my online presence. And that way I don't have to worry about creepy data brokers having my information. They've reviewed over tens of thousands of sites for me and they've removed my data

• 32:36Dr. John Delony?

  from hundreds of them, which has saved me countless hours and a ton of stress. Stop the phishing attacks, the harassment and the other online threats before they even start and take control of your digital privacy with Delete Me. Go to joindelete.me/deloney today for 20% off the annual plan. That comes out to less than nine bucks a month. That's joindelete.me/deloney. Go check them out.

• 33:04Dr. John Delony?

  All right, we're back. Hey, don't forget, take two seconds and subscribe to the show. Hit the like button or whatever you do on the internets to tell the overlords that you like this show. Let's go out to Cody, Wyoming and talk to Frank. What's up Frank?

• 33:21Speaker 03

  How you doing, Dr. John?

• 33:22Dr. John Delony?

  I'm good, brother.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  Having a break from work here.

• 33:23Dr. John Delony?

  How are you, man?

• 33:26Speaker 03

  I'm doing well.

• 33:27Dr. John Delony?

  What's up?

• 33:29Speaker 03

  Okay, well, I've got kind of a practical question that leads into more of a philosophical question, so I'll start with a practical question.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  How do I give my boss the appropriate amount of respect when my interactions with her make me think that she maybe doesn't have the care of the group, the care of the team at first in mind, and even the technical knowledge she possesses doesn't really fit the role?

• 34:01Dr. John Delony?

  You're not gonna like my answer.

• 34:07Dr. John Delony?

  If you don't trust the leadership where you work, you need to find a new place to work.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 34:13Dr. John Delony?

  Because it will end in ash. And usually, since you're not in leadership, you will end up in ash.

• 34:22Dr. John Delony?

  When somebody else isn't trustworthy, the thing you have to do is look in the mirror and say, "I can trust myself."

• 34:30Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:31Dr. John Delony?

  And it's hard to be an employee who shows up early, works really hard, puts their name on things when you don't believe the person you're working for has integrity.

• 34:43Dr. John Delony?

  That doesn't mean you're gonna agree with them. I don't agree with my boss all the time. I agree with my boss on a lot of stuff, but I trust him.

• 34:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:52Dr. John Delony?

  You know what I mean?

• 34:54Speaker 03

  Yep, yep, I hear ya.

• 34:55Dr. John Delony?

  And almost, almost, like, behind closed doors, I've seen, I have high, high trust, high trust.

• 35:04Dr. John Delony?

  And so, I guess, I guess I'd tell you is, I would start a process of finding a new place to work.

• 35:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, can I give a little more context?

• 35:14Dr. John Delony?

  Yeah, sure.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  So, she came in, um, let's see, about five months ago now. Um, the boss prior to that, uh, was promoted to a higher position. And he was great. I mean, he always had my back, why I enjoy working at the current place. Um, through a lot of hard work on my part and struggling through a very tough project. I was promoted recently as well. So I'm kinda right under this new boss who has come in and kinda replaced him. And so I, I love, I love the company. It's a great company. I, I love working for the team.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  It's a great team as well. It's just this new boss is, has come in and it's just, it's a struggle.

• 36:05Dr. John Delony?

  Is the person being dishonest?

• 36:10Speaker 03

  It just seems like she doesn't care. And it really grinds my gears.

• 36:16Dr. John Delony?

  Well, so, there's a difference between, I, I, I, I have and I would work for someone who's inept. That's fine. If you'll let me just do my job and take care of my people, I'm okay with that. Especially for a season.

• 36:31Dr. John Delony?

  If you're a person that lacks integrity, then I, I don't, I, I can't trust that there's not a second set of books. I can't trust that this company is safe. I can't trust that my job is safe. I can't trust you that my team is safe. So I'm not working for you.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:47Dr. John Delony?

  So trust for me isn't that we agree on everything, not how we vote, not how we go to church, not how, like, I don't need, we can figure that stuff out. Um, it's, it's not even that you're the best at what, they even know what you're doing. I would make a different decision than you, but you're the boss, you get to make the calls. That's fine. Where I'm saying you gotta bail is if there's integrity issues. Because here's the deal, that kind of leader, if there's a leader who just feels like she doesn't care, she's just in it for the title, she's not gonna last very long.

• 37:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I'm figuring.

• 37:20Dr. John Delony?

  Unless, though, at the first sign of trouble, she's the kind of person who lacks integrity and rolls over on her number two.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  Yep, and that's what I'm worried about. So I guess time will tell on that. I guess, how do I best support her? Because I have had no time at the company, I know how things run. And I want the group to remain in a healthy spot. So how do I best support her in her new role to help her get comfortable with it?

• 37:55Dr. John Delony?

  Here is something that, I have been a number two employee at a lot of different places.

• 38:03Dr. John Delony?

  Reporting to, either directly to the president or directly to the provost, right? Like, that's been mostly my role, or the associate dean reporting to the dean, right? And in my higher ed context. A couple of questions I began to ask to every single new supervisor I had was the following.

• 38:26Dr. John Delony?

  What's the greatest gifts I can give you in this current role?

• 38:31Dr. John Delony?

  What do you want and or need from me?

• 38:35Dr. John Delony?

  The second one is, how do I give you news you don't want to hear?

• 38:39Speaker 03

  What?

• 38:40Dr. John Delony?

  How do I give you bad news? Like, do you want it just in an email? Do you want it direct? Do you want me to text you? Do you want me to come run it in? How do you want to hear it? Every supervisor, every boss I've ever asked that question always gets a big smile and has leaned back in their seat and said, "I never thought about that."

• 38:57Dr. John Delony?

  Because, here's what's gonna happen. I want to take as many of those hard things and give it to them in a way that they have told me that they want it. So, when I have to give them bad news, "Hey, this idea's not gonna work," or "You asked me to do this and it blew up in this way," or "You asked for my budget proposal and you slashed this, here's what's gonna happen." Then, the ground you can stand on is, "Hey, this is exactly how you told me to tell you."

• 39:25Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:26Dr. John Delony?

  The third thing is, I would ask, how do you envision me leading this group of people that reports to me?

• 39:35Dr. John Delony?

  And what you're doing by asking these questions is saying, "I am going to trust first."

• 39:46Dr. John Delony?

  And if she answers, "I don't know. I don't know. That's your job. I don't know." Okay.

• 39:53Dr. John Delony?

  Or if she says, "I want it like this. I want it like this. I don't want it like this," and then she begins to beat you up for it, then you know she's not a person of integrity.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:02Dr. John Delony?

  It might be, though, that you walk in and ask those questions, and she goes, "Close the door." And she goes, "Oh, thank God." Who knows?

• 40:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:14Dr. John Delony?

  It might be. Is there any chance she's as nervous about you as you are of her?

• 40:20Speaker 03

  I think that is some of it. There's a nervousness or anxiousness there, but it's it's almost like she has a front of, "I'm tough and I don't let things get to me." And, but it comes off as, "I don't care."

• 40:36Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Have you ever worked for a woman executive before?

• 40:42Speaker 03

  No, this is first time.

• 40:43Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. My experience has been there's a shield that women executives have to have to get that far because they sit at boardrooms and they're the only person in the room, job after job after job.

• 41:00Dr. John Delony?

  And men have that same thing. It's just that when you're only around men leaders, it's just kind of, it's this understood, it's just the way this is. And it's not, but it just feels that way.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:12Dr. John Delony?

  And so there's something powerful about any supervisor that you're separate with, male or female, but any supervisor, and sitting down and saying, "All right, how can I best be a supporter for you in this role?"

• 41:27Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 41:28Dr. John Delony?

  And let me ask you one more question. Is there any part of you that wanted that job and didn't get it?

• 41:34Speaker 03

  Uh, no. No. That, uh, maybe in the future, but not, not at this point.

• 41:40Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. I would, I would say that, too.

• 41:48Speaker 03

  Say what?

• 41:50Dr. John Delony?

  I would let her know, I don't want your job.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 41:54Dr. John Delony?

  Right? Like, I'm really glad that so-and-so brought in somebody from the outside. Awesome. How can I best support you in this job? Because, by the way, if she wins, y'all all win. Right?

• 42:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. Exactly.

• 42:11Dr. John Delony?

  And so if you feel like she doesn't care, give her a reason to care. And if it feels like she's walking around with armor up, give her an environment where if she chooses to, she can drop the armor a little bit.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I'm working on. Which has seemed to be taking a very long time.

• 42:29Dr. John Delony?

  Well, when you ask somebody to wreck, then they can choose to turtle up on you, or they can choose to give you some very clear instruction, direction.

• 42:38Dr. John Delony?

  It's kind of like, it's kind of like, I take it out of this context completely. Take it home. Are you married?

• 42:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:44Dr. John Delony?

  Okay. Just imagine like,

• 42:48Dr. John Delony?

  "Well, I did the dishes and I mowed the lawn and, uh, so, tonight..." Right? And it's like, "Hey, I to-" like, you didn't even get my s-" like, just ask! You know what I mean? Like, "You want to hook up tonight? Yes. Okay, let's do it." Like, there's something about like, "I'm sending a lot of these leadership messages and she's not seeming to be get..." Okay, cool. Let's just go in the office and just ask, "How can I best support you? I've been here a long time and I want you to win." Like, you've been here a few weeks, a few months. What are you seeing? How can I best do this? How do you want to hear news that you don't want to hear? Because I want to give it to you in a way that's palatable. How can you, right, go straight into it and ask those questions? And

• 43:32Dr. John Delony?

  in some ways it's putting her on the spot, but in many ways it's giving her a, "Okay, I got a path here now. This would really be awesome if." That'd be fantastic, man. That's what I would do. If there's trust issues and it's integrity, you can't work there, man. Your integrity's not worth it. Or if you feel like I can't be a person of integrity, and I've had that before. "I can't be a person of integrity and still be here." Then yeah, it's time to go. It's time to go. And you love that company, you should grieve it. You've spent time there, you've built something up, you've got a good team. Yeah, it's going to break your heart. I'm not going to go down on this boat. Because the person is shooting holes in it and duct-taping them over and saying everything's fine. I'm not going to be a part of that. Thanks for the call, my brother. I really appreciate it. We'll be right back.

• 44:17Dr. John Delony?

  This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Life can be a mess. Work can be stressful. And when these collide, when your regular life and your work life just smash together, your mind and your body feel it. And there's plenty of data showing how workplace stress and even your boss can have a major impact on your mental and emotional stress. And most of us can't just take a vacation from work every time that we want to, but we can start with small steps to manage our work stress. First, we gotta do the things that keep our bodies and relationships strong. Exercise, sunlight, eating right, relationship check-ins. And when you need someone to sit with you and help you navigate things moving forward, getting a great therapist to help walk with you can be a game changer.

• 45:00Dr. John Delony?

  If you're thinking about trying therapy, reach out to my friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp is 100% online, which means it's affordable and it's convenient. No six-month waiting lists. To get started, you just fill out a short online survey to get matched with a licensed therapist. And as the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. And BetterHelp has an App Store rating of 4.9 out of 5 stars, based on over 1.7 million client reviews. It's incredible. Manage your workday challenges with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/deloney to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com slash deloney.

• 45:46Dr. John Delony?

  All right, Kelly, something cool happened. What is it?

• 45:48Speaker 04

  All right, so a couple of weeks ago, we had a caller on named Katie that had, um, she was resentful about some of her husband's career decisions and where they had left them. So she sent in a follow-up. She said, "I just wanted to share a quick follow-up on my call last Thursday. Dr. John suggested that I write my husband a letter telling him how proud I am of him and how excited I am to build something new together, et cetera." Well, I did it about an hour after we got off the phone, and my husband happened to come home early from work because we were leaving for a trip the next day. I sat him down on the couch and read the letter to him, and it was very special, very meaningful moment. He was like, "What prompted this?" And I told him, "Remember how I told you I was gonna be a guest on a podcast?"

• 46:30Speaker 04

  Anyway, my letter led to a really important conversation and some spontaneous physical intimacy.

• 46:35Dr. John Delony?

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 04

  Which is kind of in short supply because I'm pregnant and we have a young child.

• 46:40Dr. John Delony?

  Could've done without that. That got weird.

• 46:44Speaker 04

  So the next day, we flew out to visit my parents with our three-year-old. While in the airport, a lady leaned over to me and said, "I want to compliment y'all on how kindly you're talking to your husband and how kindly he's talking to you. I've been married for 44 years and it's such an encouragement to observe your family, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Anyway, this made us feel so good. I'm not saying that writing my husband a letter fixed everything, but it's really helped.

• 47:08Dr. John Delony?

  That's awesome. The next right step. Good for you, Katie. I'm proud of you. Proud of you. And I'm proud of you guys for being in an airport with a little one while you're pregnant and still talking to each other nicely. Dang, Gina. That's a big win. Congratulations. I'm proud of you all. Sometimes the letter doesn't fix anything, but you can look in the mirror and know I did, I reached out. I put all my cards on the table and I said, "I see you." And sometimes it's the first right step in building an entire new marriage. It's amazing. Congratulations, Katie. Thanks for that note of encouragement. Love you guys. Bye.