Working Through Sibling Trauma and Drama with Therapist Lori Gottlieb

Therapy is in session! We have incredible therapist and author Lori Gottlieb join us for a third time to discuss sibling relationships and dynamics – competitiveness and jealousy in adult siblings (especially around milestones), growing up with totally different experiences in the home, favoritism from parents, and even estrangement. And we dive into the hot topic of not liking/not getting along with a sibling's partner and how to navigate these situations and approach tough conversations. Before Lori joins us, Rayna has a dating update only true GGE fans will understand, and Ashley had an unexpected encounter at a gay bar (plus, catch us in Denver this weekend). Enjoy! Follow Lori on Instagram @lorigottlieb_author, check out her NYT column Ask the Therapist, and listen to her podcast Dear Therapists. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Warby Parker: Try on any pair of glasses virtually at https://warbyparker.com/gge. Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at https://rocketmoney.com/gge. Quince: Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order at https://quince.com/gge. iRestore: Get a huge discount on the iRestore Elite at https://irestore.com with code GGE. Cort Furniture: Build your own furniture rental package today at https://www.cort.com/podcast. Simply Pop: Go to https://cokeurl.com/simplyPOP to find out where you can try Simply Pop. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rayna Greenberg?

  I think what's interesting about siblings is that you can grow up in the same household with the same parents and have a completely different experience of your parents, each other, your childhoods. It's really interesting.

• 0:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back.

• 0:34Rayna Greenberg?

  I know we said we missed you last week, but we missed you on Monday.

• 0:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Monday.

• 0:37Rayna Greenberg?

  We only got to say we missed you on the snack.

• 0:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  The girls are back on Monday.

• 0:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Until Labor Day.

• 0:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, it feels good. We've this episode, you guys. It's a Lori Gottlieb banger.

• 0:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Masterpiece.

• 0:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Masterpiece, yeah. So, we hope you guys like it.

• 0:53Rayna Greenberg?

  We just, we wanted to do this episode. It's about sibling dynamics.

• 0:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 0:57Rayna Greenberg?

  And we've wanted to do it for so long and like, who better than Lori?

• 0:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Than Lori.

• 1:00Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm so excited. I just got back from seeing my sibling.

• 1:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, yeah. Same.

• 1:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, yeah, we both did.

• 1:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  And our nephews.

• 1:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Let's thank our partners and then we'll like talk about our lives.

• 1:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're gonna rank our nephews.

• 1:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Now, can you imagine? A power ranking of the three.

• 1:15Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm gonna guess.

• 1:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  We know who's at first. All right, let's thank our partners.

• 1:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, let's thank our partners and then we're gonna get into it. Thank you to Warby Parker. Try on any pair of glasses virtually at warbyparker.com/gge and Rocket Money. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions at rocketmoney.com/gge and Quince. Get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order at quince.com/gge.

• 1:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to iRestor. Get a huge discount on the iRestor Elite at irestore.com with code GGE. And Court Furniture. Build your own furniture rental package today at court.com/podcast. And Simply Pop. Go to cokeurl.com/simplypop to find out where you can try Simply Pop.

• 1:55Rayna Greenberg?

  So, after you left Europe, I decided to stay for two weeks.

• 1:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 2:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  You really did that.

• 2:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I've been back for a week and I'm still tired, but I'm finally starting to like kick it. Kick it.

• 2:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was on tour. I went to DC, which was so much fun in the devil's lair. It was so hot. I was like, you guys, it's hotter here than anywhere. And you know why? You're in hell. Your proximity to the devil is making it extra hot. No, it was fun. I had fun.

• 2:25Rayna Greenberg?

  I check the weather everywhere, every day. I just want to see like what other people are up to. I have a constant need to know.

• 2:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, I just remembered another story I have to tell you. We have a lot to cover.

• 2:33Rayna Greenberg?

  I only actually have one thing to tell you.

• 2:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 2:35Rayna Greenberg?

  But it's a big one.

• 2:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Before we get into it, I do want to say I'm in Denver this weekend. I'm obsessed with Denver. You are. We love Denver.

• 2:41Rayna Greenberg?

  My favorite club.

• 2:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I'm doing four shows at Comedy Works. I think two are sold out, maybe three at this point, but regardless, there are still some tickets left. There should be. Andrew Cullen coming.

• 2:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, you didn't tell me that.

• 2:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  I thought I told you.

• 2:53Rayna Greenberg?

  I didn't know.

• 2:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause I have let one straight white man be on my tour.

• 2:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Andrew's like, uh, you know, eh, he's straight, but like, he's just one of the gals.

• 3:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I felt like so proud of myself. I was like, no. No, at first I said, no straight men on my tour. It's just girls and gays. And then I remembered Neil is going to be with me in Atlanta and Charlotte. And then I was like, okay, well, no straight white men at least. And then I was telling somebody, I think I was telling my fiance, he goes, what about Andrew Cullen? I was like, oh, god damn it. So there is one straight white male on the, on the sex before.

• 3:26Rayna Greenberg?

  It doesn't count.

• 3:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  So no, he's going to come and feature and it's going to be so much fun. And then a few other things. It's Jenny Jones. It's her 40th birthday weekend. And my fiance is going to be there too. So special guest. And I think you should go.

• 3:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I didn't know about any of this. I didn't know the whole family was going until.

• 3:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  I am inviting you on air.

• 3:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Last minute, last minute. You're inviting me. We have two weeks now.

• 3:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't believe you didn't tell me, but it's crazy. Wait, what's so crazy?

• 3:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Honestly, my blood was boiling as you got to Jenny and you hit me with my fiance's going. I was like, we're going to have a fight on air about this.

• 4:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was going to invite you like days ago.

• 4:03Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm hot.

• 4:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Freena, I was going to invite you days ago. And then I was like, I'm going to save it for the episode. And my fiance was like, I don't know if that's a good idea. I was like, no.

• 4:11Rayna Greenberg?

  He knows me better than you.

• 4:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but I was like, why? He was like, what if she doesn't want to come? I'm like, then she's going to have to tell it to our audience.

• 4:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Then we're going to clip it.

• 4:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Then we'll have to cut it.

• 4:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel, I was like, as you said Jenny, I was starting to get like hot in my body like.

• 4:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I held space for you at Jenny's brunch reservation and I think you should come and host the show.

• 4:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Listen, you said Andrew and I was like, why am I not invited? Should I go?

• 4:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  And hear me out. You.

• 4:34Rayna Greenberg?

  You had me in Andrew.

• 4:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can stay in the condo with Andrew.

• 4:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  They have an amazing condo that they let the comics use and so we'll all be up in that condo. No, do you want to go? You don't have to answer on the spot. I think it'd be fun.

• 4:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I was upset when you said Andrew was going.

• 4:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  You were getting a little red in the face.

• 4:51Rayna Greenberg?

  I feel mad.

• 4:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  I posted Andrew on my story. You don't watch my stories? Do you have muted?

• 4:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm in Europe. I've been, I've been really busy.

• 5:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, guys, well.

• 5:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Is Brenna gonna come?

• 5:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I did say she should come.

• 5:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I'll text her. I'll talk to Brenna.

• 5:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, all right, guys, well.

• 5:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Probably gonna go.

• 5:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you want to host?

• 5:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Why FOMO? Yeah, I'll host. I get FOMO, I get upset.

• 5:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  This will be really fun. I already made our softer res.

• 5:15Rayna Greenberg?

  I've been planning on it, but I wanted to do it on air. Your fiance knows me. He's like, she's gonna get upset.

• 5:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, he was like, what if she doesn't want to go? And you put her on the spot. I'm like, oh, I can't put my best friend on the spot in front of our hundreds of thousands of audio. Oh, she's gonna get mad.

• 5:30Rayna Greenberg?

  You edit the podcast.

• 5:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you take it out. All right, guys, Denver this weekend, August 1st and 2nd, Friday and Saturday night, two shows each night. Ashhas.com. If you guys want to come to the shows this weekend, just, it'll be a blast. And it's just another little milestone that Friday, it will be three months to my wedding.

• 5:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't wrap my head around it.

• 5:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm supposed to be a wife in three months.

• 5:49Rayna Greenberg?

  That's so embarrassing.

• 5:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's so weird. Am I gonna put it on my Instagram bio?

• 5:51Rayna Greenberg?

  But I told you, I keep thinking like, when do I broach the like, let's talk about me marrying you? How long do you want it to be? Like, what's the tone? What's the vibe? I have outfits picked out. Like, when are we gonna go through them?

• 6:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, we will.

• 6:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 6:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Let's like, sit down and actually do it.

• 6:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a meeting?

• 6:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Rayna Greenberg?

  In Denver?

• 6:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, Denver. No, so it's just, it's, it's a crazy thing. It's like, it, it, I knew it would, the summer, that, you know, the spring touring and everything we've got going on would fly by, but three months feels like a real, like, gotta make sure everything's locked in. Two months, there's no more time left. One month, it's tomorrow.

• 6:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Three, you could savor it. Enjoy the journey.

• 6:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so I'm just like, I gotta make sure everything, like hair, makeup, DJ, I gotta make sure someone gets the big, like, letter boards that you see in the club and who's carrying the spark, the bottles and the sparklers?

• 6:39Rayna Greenberg?

  I wanna carry them.

• 6:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Who's doing the cryo? Is the drum line booked? Yeah, like, all the things that we advanced. The girls gotta eat shows. So no, so it's, you know, just, just throwing that out there, a little milestone coming up.

• 6:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm very excited. I'm trying to savor, I get a little antsy in the summertime, like I should be doing more stuff, but then I'm like, September will hit and I will have plenty to do.

• 6:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent. It's hot out.

• 6:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I've retired.

• 6:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can't be doing stuff.

• 6:57Rayna Greenberg?

  I've retired. I even considered going back to Italy in August. Gosh, it crossed my mind.

• 7:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  What? Cause it's so easy to get there from LA.

• 7:07Rayna Greenberg?

  What a nightmare. Yeah, I was in here for three weeks and it's a sibling episode and we both spent time with our siblings and I got to spend time with my nephew and he's so cute. I'm obsessed with him. I love him so much. I changed my first diaper, first and last, let me just say, a huge poop log. It was so much.

• 7:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, it wasn't like a blowout. It was like a, it was a log.

• 7:28Rayna Greenberg?

  It was, it was a log, but it like filled the diaper and I got, it got on me.

• 7:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  But that was just the start of the most horrific text I've ever read. Raina, that text filled the screen and I had to take a break.

• 7:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I was like.

• 7:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  You had a horrific episode.

• 7:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I was piecemealing it to you and Anushka and then I was like, I'll just tell them like the whole thing. Cause my brother's, I went to play tennis for an hour and I was like, I can do this for an hour. And my sister-in-law was like, he's napping. He'll be up in 20 minutes. Heat up the bottle, play with him, we'll be back. And I was like, I can, I got this.

• 8:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm already like, no, I don't got this. Heat up a bottle, how long? What are we doing here?

• 8:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I told her to FaceTime and give instructions, but I was like, I can do this. She set me up for success. And the baby was like up and I went to like get him up and I, he just had a full diaper. And I really considered like, can I leave him in this for an hour? And I just, I can't, I couldn't.

• 8:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can't. No, it's abusive.

• 8:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it felt like mean. I just, I couldn't have like enjoyed playing with him, knowing I was like doing that to him.

• 8:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh no, you know, you have to. You, I know that I could and I would figure it out. But I said, if I were you, I would have asked, when did he poop last?

• 8:33Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm surprised I didn't.

• 8:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Cause I'm not getting stuck with this.

• 8:36Rayna Greenberg?

  It seems unlike me. So yeah, I had to change his diaper. I've never changed a diaper before and like he's at the eight months, he's grabbing everything. So I like took him out of the crib. I put him on his little changing table. I held him down with one arm while I'm fishing for the diaper and the wipes with the other arm and I wipe him and I get poop on myself. I have to get another wipe and wipe it off myself. And as I'm trying to have the diaper, he punches his lamp off the table and breaks it. I was like, mother, you motherfucker. And then I like get him dressed.

• 9:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  The lamp got me.

• 9:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, oh, my brother's gonna fucking kill me. And I finally like get him dressed and I take him upstairs and we're like dancing around at the new Bieber album and he sneezes blood on me. And I was like, I killed the baby.

• 9:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Killed the baby.

• 9:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  And the lamp. There's a lot of casualties in this town home.

• 9:24Rayna Greenberg?

  I didn't tell them about the lamp.

• 9:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 9:26Rayna Greenberg?

  I set the lamp back up.

• 9:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Throw that lamp in the trash.

• 9:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I was just like, eh, we'll see. But I just, I was really proud of myself. I was so resilient.

• 9:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I don't know, I just, I love him so much. It's like, it's crazy. You love a thing enough, you'll take care of it, I guess.

• 9:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, 100%. Yeah. You know, I would. I've never changed a diaper in my life. I know that might sound kind of shocking, like.

• 9:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Why is it shocking? Why would I be out here? So.

• 9:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 9:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I told two different people, their moms, that I change a diaper. And one of them was like, my brother and sister would never change a diaper for me.

• 9:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I mean, I guess, I don't know. I've had friends, like, for example, like Lee would change Cory's kids' diapers.

• 10:00Rayna Greenberg?

  She's a NICU nurse.

• 10:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  She also was a nurse. Yeah. Like she worked in the NICU for years, you know? So it's like, I had seen that and I was like, I don't offer? And I'm like, I'm not offering. I'm not doing this.

• 10:10Rayna Greenberg?

  My sister-in-law's sister and mom are also nurses. They're great at doing that stuff.

• 10:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 10:15Rayna Greenberg?

  I've never done it. I don't know why I would have ever done it.

• 10:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And I mean, when I've been in the house and my nephew's neither diapers changed, there's like two parents that split the responsibility. Well, I'm so glad you got to be with him. He's so cute. You like used the Instagram caption of that I was like, I was thinking if I'd use it. I'm like, I'm not gonna use it now. You wrote, I'm a mommy.

• 10:32Rayna Greenberg?

  And then other people kept doing it all week with like their friends' kids. And I was like, they're repping me off. Then I was like, it's probably not that original of an idea.

• 10:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  So when you wrote, I'm a mommy, and I was like, I'm not gonna write mamacita. Everybody's writing mamacita. People didn't care that 10 people had written it before them, but I was like, I'm gonna find something more obscure. So I watched back down the clip from Love Island and I commented, how old is he or she? And like, some people didn't get it. Someone said, Raina's 40. Which maybe they were trolling me. Maybe they were just being funny.

• 11:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I was so proud because my two best friends wrote the two funniest comments. Obviously, you wrote, "How old is he or she?" And Melanie wrote, because I'm in the, I'm in the park with my nephew and there's some charcuterie and she wrote, "Great, my dream date," and he knows that.

• 11:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, I love that.

• 11:18Rayna Greenberg?

  And it just made me laugh so hard. Everybody else wrote mamacita, which I wanted them to.

• 11:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course. Mamacita is very funny, but this is obviously such a viral clip you guys have seen from Love Island. But my brother didn't know it. You know, he's got a lot going on. He's a-

• 11:31Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm glad you brought this up.

• 11:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  And so I showed it to him. He was laughing out loud. It's the funniest thing. Honestly, it's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. I don't even watch the show. I've just seen the clip.

• 11:43Rayna Greenberg?

  My sister-in-law also had never seen it and I had, I had decided ahead of this trip, I was obviously going to take a picture with him and-

• 11:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right, I'm a mommy.

• 11:49Rayna Greenberg?

  But I was like, she, she won't think this is funny.

• 11:57Rayna Greenberg?

  So I have to, I have to show her the clip. I had to show her and my brother, explain it to them.

• 12:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so funny.

• 12:06Rayna Greenberg?

  She'll be like, this is weird.

• 12:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  You really are appropriating. Yeah, I was with my two nephews and my brother and sister-in-law and I had not seen them since the holidays. And that was different for me. I usually don't go that long without seeing my family. But when I do, it is early, it's post-holiday and then I'm there in the summer and the fall a lot. Like, I'll be there, like, when I just parted ways with them this past time, I was like, "See you in a month," you know? So, but the boys, I mean, hot take, how much they grow up in that span of time. I mean, Jay is obviously, he's an anomaly. He's so advanced. He's just, we're having full conversations. He remembers everything. It's kind of crazy to see, especially like my mom and my aunt and people who were like teachers or even like this kid is just off the charts.

• 12:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  But Aaron, who just was a needier baby and- Really just wanted to be with his mom and he was always wet and he was just, you know, a different type of kid than Jay is really coming into his own. He has his own little personality. Obviously, he's running and walking around and he's starting to talk and say things and I'm obsessed with him.

• 13:07Rayna Greenberg?

  We've been waiting for it.

• 13:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, and I knew, he's just funny.

• 13:10Rayna Greenberg?

  We knew he'd be the funny one.

• 13:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, kids are funny, but he's funny. His person, you just can feel it. He's just got that like bruiser energy, like he bumps and he runs around, he's just kind of creating chaos wherever he goes. He has that look about him. He just always, I've been saying this since he was six months old, he just looks like a divorced dad, like fighting for his life, trying to get his kids back.

• 13:30Rayna Greenberg?

  He's all out of breath.

• 13:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  He had that bald head and like the hair around the sides. He looked like drunk. He looked like he just like slugged back a case of Coors Light.

• 13:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Got some rosacea.

• 13:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  While his wife took the kids. Like, that was his energy, but his smile, I mean, he is so adorable and he's way more outgoing and friendly now with other people. He's not like he was when he was a baby where he really just needed to be like on staff at all times. And I just had the best time with them. I love them so, so much. And it was so, like, I don't know, my time with my family, it's like, I, I really have had to come to terms with it being quality over quantity now. And I want to stay with my parents some nights, with Matt and Steph in their house. I want to be around. I know it's like a little chaotic with two kids now, but like I want to be there for those moments and I want to like really make the time count. And that's just how I'm thinking about it because it just used to be way more often when I lived in New York and I saw them more. But now it's like, it's the quality of time that matters and I feel like I really got that in.

• 14:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, you and I, like, we both had this like moment, like I think the same day, where like, we were feeling really guilty in July that we like took a bunch of time off and we like miss you guys and we don't record every week. We know you guys look forward to it. And we both were like, I'm really glad we got this time to be with our families.

• 14:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 14:41Rayna Greenberg?

  And like, I don't ever stay with my brother when I'm in London. I don't want to be on top of them. I don't want to bother them. But like, I stayed with him too the whole time. I got up with the baby every morning at seven. I took walks with them every morning. And it was just nice to like make, we made, we didn't do a lot. We made dinner, we watched a movie, we went to bed.

• 14:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. Like, my brother and I went out, just the two of us, Tuesday night. And Tuesday night is when I have to really get into the snack. And like,

• 15:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Again, like I love doing episodes and recording and sharing with you guys and laughing and working, but like, we just actually took it off. We usually don't. I'm usually like at night editing at my brother's house when I'm there. And it was like, we just wouldn't have gone out. And so we went out and talked so much about like mom and dad and all these different things, our relationships, you know, his wife, my fiance and the kids. I don't know, I get emotional. I just had like this really nice bonding time. I feel like I got to spend time with Steph, with the kids, the pool, and obviously my parents and my aunt. I spent a lot of time with her. She gave me this like bracelet for my wedding and we share the same birthday. And I just had these moments and I was so grateful and so thankful and also just like, also so grateful to you that you were like, let's take the time off.

• 15:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I always want to take time off.

• 15:46Rayna Greenberg?

  You're welcome. But no, I'm glad you, I'm glad you got that and that I got that.

• 15:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Of course.

• 15:52Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just, we talk a lot about our sister in laws in this episode too, but like, I just got so much one on one time with my sister in law and it was just so wonderful to talk to her about like, how it feels to become a new mom and they live in another country and she's working part time and that's different for her because she always works full time. And it's just, it's been, I feel even closer to her than I ever did.

• 16:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. I love that.

• 16:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 16:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. What is going on with your dating life?

• 16:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. So I-

• 16:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Which is not a question best friends ask each other, but Raina's been gatekeeping.

• 16:18Rayna Greenberg?

  No, you know this. We just didn't talk one on the podcast and you're gonna be like, how do we not talk about this?

• 16:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, okay.

• 16:22Rayna Greenberg?

  So I had a date like the night before I went to Europe and it was with like a podcast all star who, we got this like viral clip from years ago, what doing guy?

• 16:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Rayna Greenberg?

  And-

• 16:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my God, Raina. I was like, who?

• 16:33Rayna Greenberg?

  I was like, why is she not reacting to this?

• 16:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sorry. It was so long ago. We've lived so many lives. We've taken so much time off. It's before you left for Europe.

• 16:42Rayna Greenberg?

  The night before.

• 16:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  End of June.

• 16:45Rayna Greenberg?

  June 28th.

• 16:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  A month ago. Okay. A month ago, Raina had this date, just to catch you guys up.

• 16:50Rayna Greenberg?

  But what, two and a half years ago, we had this viral clip about this guy that I had like a one night stand with essentially, and we would try to like hook up. And the way he spoke to me was crazy. I mean, we don't use full sentences each other. We barely use verbs with each other. I mean, it's just a collection of words until one of us shows up at the other person's house, I guess.

• 17:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Go look at the clip. It's I think it's still pinned on our TikTok. I think I have it still pinned because it's like, it's a classic.

• 17:16Rayna Greenberg?

  He told me that somebody that he was dating showed him that clip and was like, this is how you talk.

• 17:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Didn't even know what was about him. I find that insane. Like, was just like, hey, is this you? And he was actually, actually it is?

• 17:26Rayna Greenberg?

  No, he did not admit that it was him. He's a liar.

• 17:31Rayna Greenberg?

  He said that she sent it to him and his first thought was like, oh, my God, she knows this is me. But she was like, this is how you talk.

• 17:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. Like, she sends it to him. She's like, this you? She's kidding. He's like, it is.

• 17:42Rayna Greenberg?

  It literally is me. We don't ever talk really or see each other, but like, once in a blue moon, the stars will align and we'll have like one perfect night together. And this was, this was the night. It was really fun. He was in LA. He asked me if I want to hang out. I said, yes. We just had this like great dinner. We popped into this restaurant that's like really popular. And we just like happened to get seats and we just like the best meal. And then we just like bought Sigs and walked back to my house.

• 18:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sigs are back.

• 18:08Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm trying to bring them back.

• 18:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can be safe, you guys.

• 18:10Rayna Greenberg?

  And when, like, we walked to my house and we synced up our Spotify playlist and like danced in my living room and hooked up on my white couch, which was very stressful for me, but like, I did it. And I don't know. You asked me, like, why don't you guys date? Like, could you take this seriously? I don't know. If you tried to date me, I would think about it.

• 18:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Maybe. We'd put him through the test a little bit. I don't trust him quite yet. It's been years.

• 18:30Rayna Greenberg?

  At least he speaks in full sentences to me now. And that's, the bar is in hell.

• 18:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 18:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just want a man that can talk.

• 18:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Text me in full sentences. But I don't know. It was just, it was a really like nice, fun experience. It was like a great summertime experience. And I just had to tell you guys.

• 18:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  We love a summer fling. What doing?

• 18:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I really, I enjoy his company a lot.

• 18:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  We have merch.

• 18:52Rayna Greenberg?

  He's what doing guy.

• 18:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's what doing guy. Yeah, exactly. Is that still available?

• 18:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I took it down. I think I did. I don't know. Who's to say what's up there?

• 18:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, if you guys have it, then put it on eBay. It's a classic.

• 19:01Rayna Greenberg?

  So that was like a fun dating, just a fun night for me and like kickoff to my European summer.

• 19:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  I have been holding this story back from you. So when I was in DC, my friend and hilarious comedian, Oscar Aiden, opens for me and he will. Not be in Denver because we're bringing in a straight white guy. But he will be in San Francisco and he will be when I film my special coming soon. He'll probably be in Boston, whatever. But he's, he's so great. And he was like, will you go out with me to a gay bar after the like show? And I was like, yeah, I'll go out after Saturday night. You know, because we had two shows ended really late. I was like, after Saturday, let's go out, celebrate like four sold out shows. We'll have so much fun. And we go out and we walk. It was this nice place. My friend Terry, I was so upset they couldn't meet, but he recommended it's called like the little gay pub. It's in like the DuPont area. We were staying around that area. So we go and it's nice.

• 19:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  And he, he was giving me kind of like the Mean Girls Cafeteria lay of the land. Like, because it could be a little clicky in this. It felt like that. It felt noticeable. And so anyway, he was kind of giving me like the lay of the land of all the gay guys in this bar. And there was a few probably straight women there, not too many. I always, I don't feel out of place, but I also feel like this is not like for me. So I'm just going to, you know, be here to support my friend and just hang out. And we are looking at these two guys. One is really good looking. He was like tall and he was just good looking. And he was talking to another guy and Oscar and I were both eyeing this guy. And I was like, that guy's, I think he's very hot, but he's a little too, he looks, he doesn't look edgy enough. He needs some tattoos. And then he like lifted up his arm and he had a whole forearm tattoo. And I was like, okay, that guy's hot. And he was like, he is hot. So we agree he's hot.

• 20:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  He goes, watch this. Oscar goes over to him. He was just like, I like your watch. And then they start talking immediately. The guy's friend had left, so he's alone. He was alone in the bar when Oscar approached him. He comes over, starts talking to us and he's really chatty and he's really nice. He was presenting kind of neutral, like, I mean, not super femme or die. I don't know. He was paying a little bit of attention to me and he was talking to Oscar. He was saying, he's saying he's kind of being nomadic right now. He lives in a van. I was like, oh my God, this would be so triggering to Reina. And just like, he works in tech and he's lived all over. He lived in LA for a little bit and it, whatever, sounded like a successful guy, but kind of of the earth vibes too, whatever. And so we're chatting with him and I can't even remember how this went down.

• 21:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think he said to Oscar, so are you gay? And Oscar goes, what? Are you what? Are you not gay? And he goes, I'm straight. What? And when I tell you, we were in a gay bar. It's called the Little Gay Pub. This wasn't, this wasn't a gay friendly bar. The Little Gay Pub.

• 21:40Rayna Greenberg?

  And so he was alone at the Little Gay Pub.

• 21:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes. So then he goes, he's talking to Oscar. He was, I thought you were calling me over to like wingman for her.

• 21:48Rayna Greenberg?

  At the gay bar?

• 21:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, I'm engaged and no.

• 21:51Rayna Greenberg?

  You can stop pretending you're not gay, sir. We're at a gay bar.

• 21:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  So Oscar goes, I'm out of here. He like goes to the, he leaves, he goes to the bathroom. He goes, I cannot believe that fucking happened. So this guy said, he said he was straight. There's no reason to lie though. His, he said he was there with his friends and his, but his friends left. Why did you stay?

• 22:11Rayna Greenberg?

  He's gay curious.

• 22:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think he could be bi because then when Oscar came back from the bathroom, he was like, so do you guys want to go to this club? And it was a very like, let's hang out the rest of the night vibe, both of us. So we were both like, I think he would fuck both of us. But Oscar was like, Ashley, I can't with you. I can't, how did this happen? How did I bring you out here to wingman for me? And

• 22:31Rayna Greenberg?

  You found the only

• 22:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  The only straight in the bar.

• 22:35Rayna Greenberg?

  This is crazy.

• 22:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 22:38Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't know. I mean, I think that there's a lot of like very secure men that would be like, I'm at a bar, my friends left, I'll stay. But like, I don't, I don't know. By yourself?

• 22:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't want, I want to tread lightly. I'm a straight woman. It can feel a little queer baiting. You're in a gay bar as a straight person alone. I mean, the assumption when you're there as a man is you're, is you're gay. Like I would, I want to go to a lesbian bar.

• 23:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I wouldn't go to any bar alone.

• 23:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Like a, let me walk that back. Okay. On a Saturday night by myself, after a certain hour, I'll go sit at a bar for dinner by myself all the time.

• 23:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 23:13Rayna Greenberg?

  But a bar, bar on a Saturday night after a certain hour by yourself. You're there for one reason.

• 23:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 23:19Rayna Greenberg?

  To meet people.

• 23:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So fuck.

• 23:22Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just like, I just, when he was like, wait, are you guys not? Are you guys gay? We're like, sir, do you know where you are? Why would you be there?

• 23:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  So it was just like a funny thing and Oscar was like, goodbye, we're going. We're not going to the club. It's midnight, 12:31 a.m.

• 23:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, 12 o'clock, I'm alone at a bar. I'm there to have sex with somebody.

• 23:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I mean, and maybe his friends had just left and then maybe we grabbed him and he was gonna leave, but he seemed like he was there chilling.

• 23:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe, maybe, maybe.

• 23:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  A full bar and then he was like, you guys want to go to the club?

• 23:54Rayna Greenberg?

  That guy is penis curious.

• 23:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it was funny. I was like, Raina would be so triggered by this guy. But you would have been into it, probably.

• 24:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I would have been into it. Well, because he lives in his van. That's why you think I'd be triggered. If we were in Denver and he lived in his van, it would be like extra triggering.

• 24:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so anyway, that happened. And then one more thing we wanted to discuss is summer long balls.

• 24:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Are they running out of content on the internet?

• 24:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I think this is important.

• 24:20Rayna Greenberg?

  You do?

• 24:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think it's important to discuss. So the Cut posted an article, Beware Summer Long Balls. And it's just that the ball sack is hot and heavy and it's hanging low.

• 24:33Rayna Greenberg?

  It's susceptible to summertime, which all of our bodies are.

• 24:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. Like my pussy is so high and tight in the winter.

• 24:41Rayna Greenberg?

  A winner. I know. Winner pussy.

• 24:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Put me in a cold plunge and you can't even find it.

• 24:46Rayna Greenberg?

  The penis is to the same thing.

• 24:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 24:49Rayna Greenberg?

  They retract into your body.

• 24:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  I try not to really lock eyes with the balls too much, but in terms of the penis, I mean, when my man gets out of the shower and it's been hot and humid and he's hanging, I'm like, look at that thing.

• 25:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't pay attention to balls at all. It's like they don't even exist and I'm down there a lot. Like, I don't ever look at them, think about them, touch them. I ignore them completely.

• 25:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I just think they're fun to like play around with.

• 25:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 25:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're not in my mouth and, you know, like I use, they're more content based for me. I talk about them on stage.

• 25:25Rayna Greenberg?

  They're here for humor.

• 25:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, I've always said, like, I think it's crazy the way body parts shapeshift. I mean, like, dicks, different dick by the day. Same with pussy lips, same with tits. Like, everything just hangs different. It looks different. Temperatures, so much of it, obviously. But this article, she's this woman that wrote it. She says, "A man told me something a few years ago that haunts me to this day. Every summer, his balls get bigger. Not to the extent he has to purchase new underwear, but enough to make a noticeable difference when he wears trunks or loose boxers. Every June or so, the summer-long balls come in."

• 25:56Rayna Greenberg?

  And there's balls drop.

• 25:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  His balls drop, yeah. It says, "The sweat can cause the skin from his scrotum to stick to his leg, creating a bat wing effect." Oh, my God. And the guys are like, "You have to make sure no one sees you when you readjust." I don't care about the plight of men and their balls touching their leg, but like-

• 26:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Poor men.

• 26:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  We do have to look at these sometimes. I mean, you know.

• 26:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, there's a few things they can do to alleviate the discomfort, which I don't care about, but, okay, tight underwear will help them. Ice packs on your testicles. You gotta air condition that shit.

• 26:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God. Yeah, just air conditioning in general.

• 26:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, just spend time in air conditioning, but that if that's not enough, ice them.

• 26:34Rayna Greenberg?

  And once the temperature goes down, so too will the circumference of the balls.

• 26:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 26:38Rayna Greenberg?

  So, once it gets colder-

• 26:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. They'll shoot right back up.

• 26:42Rayna Greenberg?

  My boobs are not affected by weather. My boobs are just-

• 26:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  But they always know when it's raining.

• 26:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  But we've said this before. I think we said it on an episode with Nikki Glaser so many years ago, how your pussy just changes by the day. I never know what it's doing down there.

• 26:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, I never knew who she was gonna be.

• 26:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so I feel like I have like, do I have like, summer labia? Summer-long labia?

• 27:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  But anyway, so be on the lookout, you guys. Be aware, and if you feel like they're hanging too low and they're grossing you out, they'll be better by the fall.

• 27:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Or air condition them.

• 27:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Or put them in the AC.

• 27:12Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, well, we're gonna thank some of our partners, then we're gonna get right into it with Lori. I am so excited about this partner. They're a new partner, and it's Warby Parker. It's the only place I shop for glasses. It's the only place I've ever shopped for glasses. And I actually just went in for an eye exam on Sunday morning at 10:00 a.m. I was like, I voice noted you, I was like, Ashley, this is so embarrassing.

• 27:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I was like, what are you doing?

• 27:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, the doctor at the Marina Del Rey location is hot, so. But anyways, I- I have a bunch of frames from them. I have thick black rims. I have tortoiseshell and I decided since I've been wearing silver jewelry, I wanted to get silver rimmed glasses. So I got the Gus lenses, if you guys are curious, but the products are so premium. You can go to the store if you want. They have 270 retail locations in the US and Canada where you can get styled by the people that work there. So I did stop in to try stuff on and the girl that I worked with was like fantastic. I went on Abbot Kinney and then I got my eyes checked in Marina. But there's just so much to choose from. The quality is fantastic. Again, it's the only place I've ever shopped for glasses and I keep a pair in my car. I keep a couple of pairs at home, one of my nightstand.

• 28:08Rayna Greenberg?

  And they have always just stood the test of time. They have so many different styles. I like can't believe it.

• 28:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  So a lot of people ask me about mine and they were, I've had them for so many years. I don't think they make the style anymore. They were called the Eugene narrow, but I think the Esme is the newer version of that. Which is our friend's daughter's name, Esme. It's so gorgeous. They're really good and I love a tortoise. Like I'm a big fan of a tortoise.

• 28:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Love my tortoise.

• 28:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  My coloring, but I kind of want to wear like big black glasses. I kind of like that look.

• 28:36Rayna Greenberg?

  My main pair is the thick black glasses.

• 28:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Rayna Greenberg?

  I keep on my bedside.

• 28:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  I want to get into this.

• 28:40Rayna Greenberg?

  My car ones are tortoiseshell and then stay tuned for the silver Gus rims.

• 28:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 28:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Really excited about.

• 28:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 28:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, you can pick the frames in-house. They have so much to choose from, so many variations of every color. And they also have eyeglasses, sunglasses, contact lenses, and you can take an eye exam there if you need to. Otherwise you can upload your prescription online, but I take it there. Their glasses are super affordable too. That's the other reason why I love them. Their glasses start at $95 and they include prescription lenses with anti-reflective, scratch resistant coatings. And if you add a pair and save 15% when you purchase two or more prescription pairs of glasses or sunglasses and free shipping and free 30 day returns. So I just, I love it. I love the flexibility and the convenience and Warby Parker has over 270 locations to help you find your next pair of glasses. You can also head over to warbyparker.com/gge right now to try on any pair virtually. I've done that before.

• 29:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that. It's so fun.

• 29:29Rayna Greenberg?

  It's a great service. That's warbyparker.com/gge, warbyparker.com/gge.

• 29:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so I am telling you guys about Court. Court furniture rental helps every house or apartment feel like home on day one. So we love this. We love this service. We love the furniture they offer, high-quality furnishings and expert service. This is going to help you achieve furniture freedom and just feel like you're already at home when you need it. So you might get a new job, you move off campus, you're moving short-term, or you have temporary furniture needs. You can enjoy custom packages that fit your space in your life, lease terms that can change with you, professional delivery, setup and pickup. They're really professional. So we had friends recently that moved and they weren't sure how long they were going to stay in that city and they used this and had like such an incredible experience. I mean, I just love this, especially if you

• 30:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  like live in a little more fluid way and you move around a lot, like then you just don't want to buy new furniture and furnish a house every time. Or again, whatever you have going on, especially we have some of you listeners that are like younger and again, you could be like leaving college and moving into your place. And this is just going to be a great service to use because furniture really shouldn't tie you down. No matter where you move, this is really convenient. Whatever you guys have going on, there's these move-in-ready room packages designed with your next move in mind. You can rent what you need, return it when you're ready for the next adventure. Again, it's really flexible, the convenience, the quality. They make it super easy, white glove delivery, setup and assembly, plus they'll pick it all up when you're on your next chapter, school or job.

• 30:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  They have a huge inventory. Again, everything is really stylish and looks really nice. You guys can go online and see what they have, but you're really going to like it. Like we're fans of everything that they offer. And you can do your delivery date, they'll work with your schedule, they'll manage everything. They make it really super easy and you're just going to have this gorgeous home with these high-quality furnishings. So you guys can build your own furniture rental package today at court.com/podcast. That's C-O-R-T.com/podcast.

• 31:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. And when it comes to spending, sometimes it's out of sight, out of mind, which unfortunately is how I've lived in the past sometimes. So daily coffee habits or streaming subscriptions or things you sign up for and you totally forget, but Rocket Money helps you spot those patterns and do something about them. So you can keep your money in your pocket, which I love. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. So I love their interface. You could see all your subscriptions in one place and everything you're spending on. And if you don't want those anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. And you can easily create personalized budgets with custom categories. So it just lays this all out for you. So you can say to yourself, I know where my money's going. I know what bills I have. And they can even help you negotiate lower bills and

• 32:05Rayna Greenberg?

  New Goals feature automatically saves you money also, so you don't have to think about it. You can help pay off bills, put away money for a house, and just build your savings. Rocket Money is over 5 million users and has saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to 740 a year when they use all the app's premium features. Cancel your own wanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Download the Rocket Money app and enter our show name, Girls Gotta Eat, in the survey so that they know that we sent you. Don't wait. Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from our show.

• 32:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's get into it.

• 32:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, guys, we are very excited to welcome back our guest today. She is a renowned psychotherapist, a New York Times bestselling author, and one of today's most trusted voices in mental health. She is the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, which has sold over a million copies and is currently being adapted into a television series. In addition to her clinical work, she is a contributing writer for the New York Times, under the column, Ask the Therapist, and co-host of the popular podcast, Dear Therapist. She has the distinct honor of being three times on this podcast, which not many people have. Please welcome back to the show, Lori Gottlieb.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  So fun to be here.

• 33:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Yay, we're so excited.

• 33:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, and so for anyone listening, you've been on twice. The most recent, we talked about mother-daughter, mom-dynamics, and the one before that, it was just a grab bag.

• 33:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Changing your perspective, changing your life, I think we called it. So if people want to go back, it was December 14th, 2020, and September 19th, 2022. And I mean, your episode about mother-daughter relationships, I mean, it just like, it changed a lot of people's lives. We got a lot of messages about it. It was really special.

• 33:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  Good, good.

• 33:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  So before we dive in, Lori, can you give us a life update? How are you? What's going on? This TV show is happening, the new podcast, columns, all the things. Just share whatever you'd like.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm really glad that people are reading Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and glad to, you know, have it being adapted into a TV series. I'm very excited about the New York Times Advice column that I write, called Ask the Therapist. And I love getting letters from people and taking on all different kinds of topics. So that's been new and exciting as well.

• 34:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Are you ever surprised?

• 34:16Speaker 02

  No, you know,

• 34:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Have you seen it all?

• 34:19Speaker 02

  I think the people who either come to therapy or they write into the column, they think, oh, you know, I'm the only person experiencing this or, or, you know, no one's ever heard this or this is going to be shocking. And it's like, yeah, no, I've heard that a million times.

• 34:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  But isn't that what most people want to hear?

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I think that people need to understand that, you know, whatever they're experiencing, they are not the first to experience it and they are not alone. And it's really important that people start talking about these things, which is why I love, you know, what I did in the book and what I'm doing with the column and really bringing these things out into the open so people know that lots of people are experiencing them and that we're all talking about it. You don't have to feel ashamed or feel like you have to hide something.

• 35:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I love that. Nothing surprises you anywhere. We're all the same.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  We are.

• 35:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, we did such a beautiful episode, like we said, with you about mother-daughter dynamics. And we've been talking about sibling dynamics. And our show is mostly about romantic dating and relationships, but also friendships and family dynamics. And sibling dynamics kept really coming up. And the relationship that you have with a same-sex sibling, which Ashley and I find so fascinating because we both have brothers, we're both older siblings to boys that are four years younger than us. And our friends that have same-sex siblings, we're always fascinated by that dynamic. And I mean, I got compared to my brother my whole life, but I wasn't being compared to somebody of the same gender. So that was different. And we polled our listeners and asked what they wanted to talk about. And so many things came up. And to your point of everybody sort of dealing with the same stuff,

• 35:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, the same like five topics just came over and over and over for us.

• 35:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so we'll probably end a little bit with some of the more dating stuff, but just to kick it off with just favoritism roles, sibling dynamics in the home, people feeling competitive and constantly being compared, they'll never live up to their sibling. Just I think that's across the board, probably came up the most.

• 36:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, and we're talking about adults, you know, that feel like that's the dynamic their whole life.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think what's interesting about siblings is that You can grow up in the same household with the same parents and have a completely different experience of your parents, each other, your childhoods. It's really interesting. And I think that where siblings sometimes get into conflict is that they think that the other sibling is supposed to see things the way they did. Like, you were the this one in the family, and I was this one in the family. And the other sibling's like, no, I don't think it played out that way. And then they feel like they're being gaslit, but they're not. They're just having very different experiences of a similar, you know, environment.

• 36:50Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm getting really emotional.

• 36:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. Gosh, you just like speaks her right to soul. I was like, oh, this one's gonna hit different.

• 36:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I didn't, I actually thought this wouldn't come up as much. And, you know, my experience for our listeners, I have a brother who's four years younger than me, and I was older, and I had a tougher time in the house than he did. He was always the golden child. Everything he did was wonderful and perfect and amazing. And I was met with a lot of anger all the time and criticism. And growing up, there was a lot of, for lack of a better term, gaslighting or teasing from him that I was being too sensitive, that I needed to get over it. I always just wanted the other person in my home to validate that we did not grow up in the same home. And it wasn't until we were adults that he really did that, and it was really meaningful to me and really special. And it's, I mean, we have a great relationship, but it made it even better, so.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  What do you think happened that made that conversation possible between the two of you? Where he was able to acknowledge that some of what you experienced, he also experienced? Or he could see that you experienced it that way?

• 37:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Weirdly, when I stopped trying to convince him all the time that this was happening, and I kind of just took a backseat and just let him sort of watch the behavior, it's weird, I almost like abdicated. And he was like, wow, this really is the dynamic here. I stopped fighting against everybody in the family. I was like, I'm not gonna, I don't need to prove anything to anybody. I'm gonna show up, be the best version of myself, go home. When I was still, I think, being attacked, I think he was like... This is really different than how I get treated. And he said to me, you know, my whole life, I take a shit and everybody acts like that's the best thing that ever happened. And I'm a pretty average person. And he said to me, you've like changed the world with what you've committed to doing with your job. And from 50% of our parents, you don't get any credit for that. So, I don't know.

• 38:33Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, he also grew up, he's a parent now, he's a great husband. I think his wife contributed to saying things about it as well, but I don't know.

• 38:41Speaker 02

  When you think about, I think a lot of times siblings who grew up like you did, where one of them is sort of the golden child, the golden child has a lot of pressure. And so we think, oh, they had it so easy because everybody was always saying they're so great and giving them all of this acknowledgement and praise. But then they wonder, do I deserve this? Did I earn this? Is this real? So they have to keep up with that and they have a lot of pressure, feeling like, well, I don't really know if I'm as great as everybody's saying that I am. So, you know, we don't think about that because it seems easier to be the golden child than to be the one who isn't acknowledged for those things. But the golden child also has other issues with it. And often when they become adults, those start to come out.

• 39:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  So you talk about the kids experiencing the household differently, but is this because they're being treated differently a lot of times? I mean, we talk about parents are sometimes intentionally, but possibly unintentionally completely treating their children differently.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's hard for people to acknowledge that just in terms of our personalities and who we are, that as parents, we tend to maybe bond more easily with one child over maybe other children in the household. So, you know, children who are more like what you imagined your child would be like, and maybe that's more like you or the way you wish that you had been. And so they're kind of working out something that they never were or got as a child. And then we have to say like, oh, we love all of our kids equally. We feel the same about all of them. I think that parents generally, in a healthy household, love their kids. But that doesn't mean that they don't have an affinity toward one of them more than maybe some of the others.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  And parents try to hide that, but it's really hard to hide. And it's picked up very easily by the other people in the household, no matter how hard you think you're treating all the kids equally.

• 40:34Rayna Greenberg?

  I guess if I were to say, you know, my brother, growing up, always acted like I was being crazy, but I want to also acknowledge, he was also a child. He didn't understand dynamics as deep and psychological as this. And so I want to give credit to people like, we grew up in a different home, he couldn't acknowledge it as kids, but I don't know why anybody that age would even know that.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's really incumbent upon the parents to make sure that they have their own stuff worked out so that they can not treat the kids in terms of their own kinds of things that they need to work out, or things they need to heal, or whatever their dreams, desires, wishes are, that that's not what your kids are for. They're not here to make your dreams come true in those ways. And so it's really, I always say to parents that you need to get to know the child that you have. That's your goal. Get to know the child that you have, and embrace the child that you have. And you need to separate that out from whatever unhealed childhood wounds you are bringing into your own parenting.

• 41:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Do people say to you, like, it's frustrating for me that, like, they, they won't see this, that they, they were the favorite, or that mom always gave them, or mom and dad were more empathetic towards them, or gave them more patience. Like, I'm sure that's very frustrating for people, so I wonder what you say to them.

• 41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Every household has these invisible ledgers. So it's like, you know, who sacrificed more? Who accomplished more? Who was this more, or that more, or this less, or that less, right? These ledgers, right? And they're invisible. And then something might happen, like, let's say there's an inheritance dispute, which is what's coming up in the next column in the New York Times. It's these siblings, and, and there's this thing about this inheritance dispute, and the person said, like, I thought I had a really good relationship with my brother, and then this thing happened, and now he's not talking to me. So our relationship couldn't have been that strong if, like, this one thing caused him not to talk to

• 42:27Speaker 02

  me. And it's because it hits something so much deeper about this invisible ledger, and who got what, and who was favored, and who was valued. And then it, it comes out in something like an inheritance dispute, or whatever it comes out in. And all of a sudden, you realize, wow, this has been going on for years and years and years, but we never acknowledged it, and we never talked about it.

• 42:50Rayna Greenberg?

  That's pretty common, that when parents pass away, that there's these-

• 42:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and money stuff, too. I mean, just money brings out, can bring out the worst in people. I think it's really interesting what you, you said, and not like a big shock that parents play favorites, you didn't use that language, but- If one of your kids is easier, I mean, they make your life easier. They are more like you. I mean, there were times in my life where I could feel that maybe my brother was favored, but I knew because he was just easier. I was more difficult. I was this older, like, super headstrong girl, you know? And they didn't make me feel like that. They were just really good parents. But I can see where parents are like, I have one kid that's like, perfect, perfect. And this kid that's just making my life hell. And I guess I can empathize with how do you not? How are you even able to treat them equally when your experience with them is so different?

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Right. People don't realize that genetics plays a huge role in this. So even though you come from the same parents, that you might genetically have a different personality that is less easygoing than, say, another sibling. And so the easygoing sibling gets lots of praise. They're so easy. They're so delightful to be around. And the other one is pushing back or maybe is more sensitive. They require a little more time and effort from the parents. And sometimes, depending on the parents, that can be challenging for the parents. Not because there's anything wrong with that kid at all. That's actually, those are great personality traits in a lot of ways. But it depends on the personality traits of the parent, too,

• 44:22Speaker 02

  and how well or not well they're able to bond with a child who pushes back more or who maybe needs more care around feelings. Because maybe they don't have a lot of experience dealing with feelings. Maybe they never pushed back and maybe they're even envious of that. And so they try to shut that down. A lot of times what people don't talk about is how we can envy our own children. And when we do, we tend to punish them for having qualities that we would have liked or having an easier life or a better life than maybe we had as a child. And it's completely outside of our awareness. So parents are not saying like, I'm going to punish my child for this. It's completely outside of the parent's awareness, but they, in subtle ways, they feel resentful of that child.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Like, you have it so easy. Or, you know, I didn't have this. Or you have this quality that I wish that I had. And then it comes out in these ways where the child feels like that parent doesn't like me very much or that parent doesn't like me as much as they like my sibling.

• 45:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then that plays into the ledgers you talked about with like who sacrificed more? And, and I think, I think my parents, I think I was pretty difficult, but I think they were like, "All this is gonna, she's gonna make it one day." I mean, they just were like, "She's the worst, but like, one day she'll be,

• 45:37Speaker 02

  But they valued it.

• 45:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  She'll be paying for us at retirement." That's what I'm saying. They somehow valued it, because I look back and I'm like, "Couldn't, couldn't be me." But they were like, "These qualities that make her really difficult will probably help her in the future."

• 45:49Rayna Greenberg?

  It's interesting that you say that.

• 45:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  And they were right.

• 45:50Rayna Greenberg?

  And your parents are such a team, and they're like so united, and they had each other to kind of be like, "Let's manage this girl together." But I, to your point-

• 45:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  She can't be managed.

• 45:59Rayna Greenberg?

  I was not easy. I was combative. I always took the bait. I was a girl, so I mean, it is just, you know, you want to be born protective of women in general when they're young. And I, I could not be protected. I couldn't, I, you know, I, I didn't ever want anybody to know where I was. My brother was just, he was easier. He was an athlete. He got good grades. He was always where he said he was gonna be. He was a nice kid that came home and did his homework. He didn't fight with everybody. I came home every day we had a fight. So I, I, when you look back, you're like, "Well, my parents really did have different experiences with me."

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Right. And also, I, I like what you're saying about gender roles, that gender roles play a huge part in how sometimes parents treat their kids. So, you know, it, it's interesting to think like, "Well, if the boy doesn't tell you where he is, that's okay, because he's a boy. But if the girl doesn't tell you where she is, you know, she's a problem." So there's this double standard around, you know, how boys and girls are treated. And, you know, it's kind of like, and in the opposite direction too, like sometimes, you know, if a boy, I remember when my son was little, and you'd watch like, a boy fell down at the playground. People would say like, "Get up, it's fine, brush it off," right? He was like two, right? And then like, if a girl who was two fell down and, and her knee was bleeding, you know, you'd be like, "Oh, honey, come here, are you okay?" Right?

• 47:13Speaker 02

  So there's a lot of that too, that plays into how kids are treated differently in the same family.

• 47:18Rayna Greenberg?

  So if you want to deal with your sibling one to one and you're like, I just, I desperately need them to just acknowledge that we did not have the same experience because, man, it felt so good when it happened for me. Like, do you advise people, you just have to accept that you're both raised really differently and just like, like, what do you say to somebody that's like, I, no, I need that. I'm gonna need that acknowledgement? Like, how do you start the conversation?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's so interesting that you're starting at a place that a lot of people start at, which is really counterproductive, even though we think it's gonna be productive. You're saying, I really need my sibling to acknowledge this. What you need first, before they can hear you, is you need to hear them. So you need to be able to say, I'm able to step outside of my story and make space for your story. And so you lead with curiosity. I'm curious what it was like for you growing up. What was your experience? And, and, and it doesn't have to match yours at all. The point is, you want to get really curious about something that you're gonna learn about their experience that maybe you don't already know. Because then you can connect, then there's some compassion, then there's some empathy. Like, it might look like they had this perfect childhood, and

• 48:23Speaker 02

  maybe they had certain aspects that were easier. But I'm sure there are some aspects of it that maybe you didn't realize were challenging for them. Or they saw something in a way that you thought, oh, yeah, that rings true. I could see that. So you find these points of, I see that person as another person separate from me, and I can see points of commonality. And they don't have to agree with your perspective. So you, you're trying to get something out of them instead of giving them something.

• 48:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Interesting.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Give them the opportunity to see, oh, yeah, this was what it was like for me. Or, you know, here were some of the things that I thought in our family worked really well, and here were some of the things that, you know, were maybe challenging for me. And even, here's what was challenging for me about you, which is really hard to hear from your sibling. But it opens up this beautiful adult honesty, if it's said with compassion and grace, that it was hard because you took up so much attention, because you were always complaining about this, or you were loud, or you were this, and it took away so much attention. So I had to be the good one, and I had to be quiet, and I could never complain about anything, because I didn't think mom and dad could handle it, given that you took

• 49:35Speaker 02

  up so much air in the house. And you're like, oh, I didn't, I didn't realize that they had to shut down.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  To protect the family system and that was hard for them because they couldn't get the support that they needed.

• 49:51Rayna Greenberg?

  That's really interesting and I've, I've really never asked my brother, like, what did it feel like for you that every family dinner or seven nights a week was just us screaming at each other and every holiday, every vacation, every, everything was just like my mom and I fighting and I never asked him how that felt. He's fine.

• 50:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then you don't, like, I don't know, did he ever feel any guilt? Like, why do I just get to sit here and not bear the brunt of this? Like, I wonder if that played into it, but like, I mean, Lori, to your point, like, you obviously have to approach this with curiosity and openness and, I mean, be prepared for feedback and I'm sure you've seen siblings have that conversation and one is like, that's how it happened and that's not true and it has to be like, but that's how it felt to me and I was a kid.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Right, we're not, we're not talking about the events, we're talking about the emotional experience. So it's not like, this was said at this time at this dinner, right? It's more like, you know, when you would fight at dinner every time, this is how it affected my experience of growing up. That's just your brother's experience of it, it's not a diss on you, it's, this was, this was what it was like for me. That's absolutely true from his perspective. Now, you had a different perspective and it's absolutely true from your perspective, what your experience was, but you need to make room for the fact that you had different experiences and what you're doing is you're creating some kind of adult relationship

• 51:11Speaker 02

  by saying, here was my experience, here was your experience, oh, that's so interesting and who are we now to each other that we're not sitting at that dinner table with all the noise?

• 51:21Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 52:04Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 52:46Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 53:31Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 53:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. It's getting hotter out. We're taking vacations. We want new clothing. I cannot recommend Quince enough. Ashley and I love them literally every season. The quality is so elevated and the price, I don't know how they do it, but everything that they do just matches the standards by which I want to wear clothing in my life. So they have 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30. They have great swimwear and leather platform sandals. Truly for half the cost of similar brands and it's still so, so, so stylish. So I brought these pair of sneakers with me to Europe that I loved and I wore almost every day. The Eco Cotton Canvas Everyday Sneaker. They're $59. They come in a bunch of different colors. They're just like a perfect like canvas sneaker for the summer. And I wore them out to dinners. I wore them for long walks.

• 54:36Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just like a great summertime vacation sneaker. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics. So you guys have to check it out. Ash and I bought so much stuff there over the years in terms of accessories, purses, shoes, clothing, sweaters in the winter, but check out the linen that they have right now and give your summer closet an upgrade with Quince. Go to quince.com/gge for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash G G E to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash G G E.

• 55:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. And I am telling you guys about Simply Pop. We are so excited. Simply has launched a new prebiotic soda, Simply Pop, the new juicy soda. There are five flavors, pineapple, mango, lime, strawberry, citrus punch and fruit punch. We love this. I mean, I obviously like, who doesn't want something that's going to be prebiotic and that's going to taste great? Made with real fruit juice. Simply Pop supports gut health, so big on gut health with six grams of prebiotic fiber. No added sugars, sweetened with juices, monk fruit extract, supports immune health with zinc and vitamin C. Simply Pop is flavor that pops. I really love all the flavors, but I'm just like a pineapple mango kind of tropical flavor. I also love a lime, any citrus fruit I love, but they all are really delicious.

• 55:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Again, made with real fruit juice and you pair that with the zinc and the vitamin C and it's going to support your immune health. You just really can't beat it. So this is all new. You guys might be hearing about it for the first time here today.

• 56:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Heard it here first.

• 56:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  And we really encourage you guys to check it out. You can go to cokeurl.com/simplypop and find out where you can try Simply Pop. Well, let's move into when you do, we are grown and you see a lot of competition and comparison. And especially we got a lot of responses from our audience about same gender siblings and who's more successful? Who's hotter? Who got married first? I mean, all those types of things. And how we work that out?

• 56:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that especially around adult milestones, there tends to be sometimes envy, which comes out as competition. But really, it's, I want what my sibling has. And especially if they have it younger than you. Like, let's say you're the older sibling, and they're, they met their partner first, or they're getting married first, or they got the great job first, they were able to buy a house first, whatever those milestones are. Then you feel like, well, wait a minute. I'm the older one. And you're feeling bad about yourself and your own timeline. But because you have someone in the same family, it's one thing if that happens to a friend, you might feel some envy. But it's especially poignant when it's a sibling,

• 57:19Speaker 02

  because you feel like, well, it's not their turn. It's my turn, and I was supposed to go first. And you feel a little bit left behind. And instead of going into that more tender space of, I feel really left behind, and I'm sad that that hasn't happened for me yet. We tend to sort of take it out on the sibling. And that's not really fair to them. It's like you can hold two things at once. You can be happy for them that they found that, and feel incredibly sad and envious at the same time. And we tend to do one or the other. We tend to either say like, I'm gonna pretend that I'm happy, or I'm, I'm gonna shut down all my other feelings, and I'm just gonna be completely happy for them. But that's not real, because part of you does feel envious.

• 58:04Speaker 02

  And the other one is like, I'm just gonna be really envious, and then I'm passive aggressive, because I'm not even being kind to them, because I'm so upset about the fact that, you know, I'm feeling small while they're having this kind of life that I want. So we need to make room for both.

• 58:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  And what's the self-talk there? Because I think people are like, yeah, I feel this, but I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do with these feelings.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  When you give them air, they tend to get a little bit less intense. So you can say to your sibling, Exactly the truth, which is, I am so happy for you. I truly am. I think this is great for you. And I hope you understand that it's also hard for me. Nothing you did was wrong. You're doing your life in just the right way for you. But it's, it's hard for me. Sometimes I feel envy and sometimes I feel like, is this gonna happen for me? Or I, I, I don't feel good about myself. And I just want you to know that. And then what that says to your sibling is, oh, I can be careful. And I don't mean walking on eggshells, but I can be tender with my sibling. So maybe

• 59:08Speaker 02

  I'm not going to, like, talk about, oh, my gosh, and tell you every single detail about every great thing that is happening, right? Like, like, you get, you get in the loop and you're still talking about it. But maybe some of it is a little bit too hard and you understand, like, I don't need to kind of rub it in my sibling's face that all this stuff is happening.

• 59:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I think about the, let's just say, we're talking about sisters, younger sisters getting married, older sisters feeling these feelings. Like, I, you've heard the younger sibling be like, why can't you just be happy for, you know, like, they want this unconditional happiness from their sister, from her, from her family member. And I think that's where it gets tricky. Because like, well, I'm not happy for myself. It's manifesting in me not being happy for you. Yeah. And it's, but it's like, I could see a world in which the younger sibling's like, well, why do I have to hold back? Like, you're my sister. I want to tell you everything. And it's just like, you have the older sister, like, but it feels bad. Like, I'm holding both truths. And I think we've seen that, you know, that, like, why can't you just be happy for me?

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  It, it's not that you're, you're holding back so much. It's just that you're aware of

• 1:00:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yep.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  your sibling as a person. And I, I would think, like, you're asking your sibling to love you in a certain way, which is to be really excited for you. And your sibling is saying, and I am excited for you. And I'm asking you to love me back in a certain way, which is to be tender with my heart right now. And I think that both are really valid. And it's really beautiful when two sisters can be really tender with each other's hearts. Like, I want to be there for you. And I really am so excited. And here's how I can participate in the wedding festivities. And here's, you know, and I'm 100% there for you. And I'm really excited for you. And there are ways in which you can be a little more tender around me, too. And that doesn't mean that I'm less happy for you.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  It means that what I'm asking, that we can, we are sisters and we have this bond. And we can treat each other with such grace. And that's what's so beautiful about our sibling relationship is that we know how to treat each other with grace.

• 1:01:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, and just the way that you act in general, like you don't flaunt something if someone's struggling with something. I don't know, if I was talking to my brother and I'm the older sibling, but if I should be more ahead than him. If he was struggling with work and I'm like, well, I gotta tell you how much success I've had today. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that. That's just kind of like common sense to me.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  The conversation might be something like, you know, you can tell him something you're excited about. Like, hey, this really exciting thing happened at work. And how are you doing?

• 1:01:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  And how can I be there for you? And do you need help with anything?

• 1:01:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  Do you want to go take a walk? Do you wanna, do you want me to help brainstorm with you? Like, what would be helpful for you? So it's like there's room for both of you and both of your realities in the relationship.

• 1:01:45Rayna Greenberg?

  It's interesting that you're saying the solution because I think when we're in these, in these situations where we're so jealous of somebody, especially a sibling, that we like, it hurts to watch them have these successes that we can't have. The solution is to get really vulnerable and admit that. But you're like, over my dead body, I want to tell this person this. That's like the last thing you want to do because it's so vulnerable. I mean, it's admitting that you have quote unquote failed in your own mind and achieving this milestone that you wanted to achieve first. And they've gotten it and you have to tell them that. And that's really painful, but I do, to your point, it opens the door to a really much more tender, understanding relationship.

• 1:02:19Speaker 02

  And it's so much more honest. And I think that when you have that room for honesty between the two of you of saying like, here's what I'm going through and I appreciate what you're going through. And can we make room for both of us as adult siblings? That's how you get really close as adults. You know, it's hard to do that when you're kids, but when you get older. No matter what your relationship was like when you're younger, so many times, kids did not have really close relationships when they were younger because of whatever the dynamics were. But then, as adults, they find, wow, we can be there for each other in these important ways. And it feels so good, because think about it. You guys have this shared history, and maybe it wasn't a great history, or maybe it was a fine history, it doesn't matter.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  But nobody has known you as long, in most cases, as your sibling has, and in the same way, growing up in the same household. And so, when you can really harness that as adults to say, wow, we have this shared experience, even if it was different, even if we have different experiences of it. We grew up in the same household, we have so much institutional knowledge of our family, even if we have different ideas about it. And here we are as adults, and we're gonna be here for each other. There's something so beautiful about that. Like, who are you now, and who am I now, and let's get to know each other now.

• 1:03:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Is this very gendered, this jealousy? Do you see that very much between same-sex siblings? Of like, they were always the pretty one, they were always the successful one. It's hard to let that go.

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  They get everything, yeah. Families tend to label siblings, which I think is so dangerous. Like, this person was the pretty one, and this person was the academic one, and this person was the sensitive one. As if sensitivity, by the way, were a bad thing. As opposed to, wow, this sibling actually knows how to feel her feelings, and identify her feelings, and communicate her feelings. So, that's really important, when you can name your feelings, identify your feelings, communicate your feelings. But in your family, maybe your parents weren't used to that, and they said, oh, that person's too sensitive, right? Or they didn't know how to help you to use those feelings in a productive way. So, it was great that maybe, let's say, you felt anger.

• 1:04:27Speaker 02

  But instead of saying, like, I'm gonna use my anger to realize that I need to set a boundary, or I need to talk to that person about something that made me upset, you would throw a tantrum. Well, that's not very productive. So, your parents could step in and say, hey, sounds like you got really mad when your brother did this. Let's talk about how you can communicate that. So if your parents didn't teach you that, they just said, oh, this person's so sensitive. They're always crying, they're always doing this. Instead of, oh, wow, what a superpower this person has to identify their feelings. Now we just have to teach them how to use their feelings in a productive way.

• 1:05:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Because I've watched this dynamic manifest with a couple girlfriends of mine. I have two friends that both have sisters. I would say my friends are the quote unquote traditionally more beautiful one of the of the sisters. And I've watched it manifested that like their sisters tend to like pick on them and not be very nice to them. And they always feel like they're being attacked by their sisters. And I'm like, well, what was it like growing up for them feeling like their same sex sibling got more, was better? Boys liked them more. And it's it's an interesting dynamic to watch. I've just repeated self because I've seen it multiple times.

• 1:05:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I just love what you said about siblings. My brother and I didn't get along growing up, which I don't know. I didn't really care for him. I just whatever I just, we didn't really vibe. It wasn't nonstop fighting in the house, but we just weren't friends. We didn't play together. I didn't want him to play with me, my friends and all that. And he's just, I could, I could get emotional talking about how close we are now. And we're able to look back at our childhood and reminisce and that type of thing. And

• 1:05:57Rayna Greenberg?

  What changed?

• 1:05:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just grew up and I just didn't think he was cool. He was four years younger. Everybody thought he was like so cool and funny. And I was just, he's not even, it's, I don't, that's probably jealous. I mean, when I look back, like I was, you know, had four years to myself. I think I was jealous of him from the start, if I'm being honest. And so I just grew up, I realized how funny and great and awesome he was. And probably when I went away to college and I got out of the house, then we developed a really close relationship. And we've been so close ever since. And I, you know, I just feel for anybody that has tensions in their sibling relationships. And they almost hit different than parents. I think that so many people have. Tough relationships with their parents. When you hear people say that they are estranged

• 1:06:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  from their siblings, it just like hurts because it's like, not to be too dark, but you know, traditionally you will lose your parents first and you should be able to lean on your siblings. And again, they had the same shared experience that you have in the home. No one knows you better. And so I feel for anybody that has these relationships and hopefully this episode can help and just in general, because they're, they're so important. Like my brother is the most important person, you know, when I really think of like, and my fiance and Rena, but like the, the rest of my life, you know, when I lose my parents, because obviously that they're so important too.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  We did an episode of Dear Therapists where someone came on and she was talking about how her much more successful brother and his wife always made her and her husband feel like they would talk about, we were on this trip to Hawaii and we did this and we bought this house and, and, and how hard it was for her to help him to understand that he throughout her life had always seemed like the one who, you know, had more than she had. And what we did with them on the episode was we had her talk to him differently and she found out like how hard it was growing up for him. And she had no idea. She thought he had it so

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  easy and how he dealt with all this trauma and how, and it would like, it totally changed their relationship. And I think that when your parents aren't living in the same house as you, when you go into the world as adults, you start to see each other as real people.

• 1:08:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Yep.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  It really can change the dynamic if you are open to hearing the other person's experience and not demanding that they see the world the way you do.

• 1:08:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  So a bunch of people did say, you know, there's these dynamics that have arose, whether it's I am estranged from my parents, but my sibling is not, or I'm estranged from a sibling, but not my parents. And like, how do we kind of deal with that? And I'm listening, you could do a whole episode for two hours, but.

• 1:08:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Do you want to start with one of those dynamics?

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think in general, what we see on social media is, you know, if this person is like this, then you should cut them off and they're toxic and they're a narcissist. And it's just not productive. There are times when, yes, estrangement makes sense. But people really need to be clear about what that means. And have they really tried everything in a productive way? Because they can say, yes, I've tried this and I've tried that. But if that's not working out for you, then maybe you need to switch up your approach. Because if you just keep trying the same thing over and over and it's not working, and then you decide you're going to cut someone off, you don't really know what was possible. So I think that we need to understand that family estrangements are really difficult

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  because you're not just cutting off that person. The whole family system then has to get rearranged. Like, if you cut off a parent, what happens at when your sibling is still really close to that parent? And then you're like saying to your sibling, how could you be close to that parent when that parent did this to me? And then that creates conflict. Or what happens at family occasions? Or what happens if you have kids, but your kids want to know their grandparents? And there are just so many complications. And cutting off a sibling, the same thing. And then your parents are kind of stuck between, well, what do we do? Because we love both of our kids or all of our kids. And this one won't be in the presence of this one. And it creates so many different kinds of problems within the family.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  So I think that people need to understand what they're actually wanting before they cut someone off. Like, most of the time, we just want to be understood. It's like, I remember when I was seeing this couple and this woman said to her husband, you know what three words I really want to hear more? And he immediately said, I love you. I know, I need to say I love you more. And she said, no. The three words are, I understand you.

• 1:10:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Right, because understanding is a form of love. It's the deepest form of love. And I think that when we feel like people are not making the effort to understand us, which doesn't mean agreeing with you, it's understanding you, then we feel like there's nowhere to go and then we want to cut them off. So, again, can you first understand them? Like, why are they doing the thing that they're doing? Why are they acting the way that they're acting? What is getting in the way of them getting closer to you? And basically, that's a great question to ask is, what is getting in the way of us being closer from your perspective? What would be helpful? That's a great place to start.

• 1:11:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that.

• 1:11:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then, I mean, sometimes you're on the other side of it and someone has cut you off and you may or may not know why. And I know a family that's like that and it's really tough. It was a bunch of siblings and one just kind of cut off one sibling and is semi estranged, but kind of took it out on one particular sibling and no one really understands why.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  Right, and that person can say, that sibling can say to the sibling who cut them off, to start off with these words, "I know I hurt you and I'm not sure exactly how, but I know that that's what must have happened. I must have hurt you deeply. Can you help me understand how I hurt you? Even if you don't want to reconnect? Can you help me understand you better? I'd like to get to know you better, even if you decide not to reconnect with me."

• 1:12:15Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that's really beautiful.

• 1:12:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Lori, you almost got us all fucked up.

• 1:12:20Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, for some people estrangement is the only answer to feel healthy. You've tried to set a million boundaries and that's where we've come to. And I understand that if that's what you need to do to protect yourself, then that's what you need to do and that it's-

• 1:12:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  If it's dangerous, if it's abusive, yeah.

• 1:12:33Rayna Greenberg?

  And it makes your family dynamic tough. And I think all you can hope for is, I mean, I guess if you've chosen to be estranged from a parent, that your sibling at least respects it.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  Sure, I mean, sometimes, so abuse is one thing. So, we're not talking about abuse here, that's different. But we're talking about, let's say that you feel like your parent doesn't understand your experience and how you felt as a child. And then people will say, well, I'm cutting off that parent unless they acknowledge that I felt this way. There might be other things that you get from that relationship with your parent. There might be a lot of things, in fact, and maybe your parent is just really limited in that way. And they can't understand this aspect of what it felt like when you were a child in the way, in the fullness that you need them to experience it or acknowledge it. But that doesn't mean that you're, you know, the whole relationship needs to go. And people say, well, it's my parent and they should understand this and they should.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  It's like, they have limitations. So you have to understand that maybe they're trying as hard as they can, but they literally do not have the capacity because they never got the modeling for that. They're not psychologically able to do that. But there are other ways in which they love you and that it feels really good. And so you don't want to give that up too.

• 1:13:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, and if this is interesting to you guys, this is so much in the last episode we did with you. If, you know, if you guys haven't heard, but a lot of it was, we talked about that especially with bombs. So we want to direct you guys back there. But we unfortunately have to wrap up with you soon. But we really want to talk about something that came up a ton. And that was conflict with or disliking a sibling's partner.

• 1:14:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Over and over and over again. And yes, removing, you know, that I feel that it's, they're in a dangerous situation, which is a total, just feeling like you don't like the person in general came up a lot. Do you see this a lot?

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  Oh, I do.

• 1:14:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Let's get into it.

• 1:14:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  And more than just like they're annoying. Like, there's probably something going on that's in between danger and annoying.

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  That's what I want to differentiate between. So there's, there's, my sibling is in trouble. This person is abusive, right? That's something else. But then there's sort of that spectrum from that person's personality doesn't mesh with mine and I just really don't like being around them. I find them annoying or I just, you know, I don't vibe with them.

• 1:14:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  And I don't understand why my sibling does because my sibling's cool. And like, why is my sibling with this person? And can't they do better because I know they can? Or there's something about your sibling has to pay for, you know, or supporting them or like doing something that you feel is really unfair and not what should be happening in that relationship.

• 1:15:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like being taken advantage of.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  Yes, being, your sibling is being taken advantage of. Your sibling's partner is.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  Trying to make you not spend as much time with your family members. Is trying to, you know, compare your families and that person says, "My family's so much better than yours. And let's go spend more time with my family." You know, there are just certain things that sometimes they do and you see this happening and your sibling can't see it. Or your sibling can see it, but they don't feel like they want to do anything about it. Or they don't feel like they can do anything about it. And that's really frustrating because you feel like, "Oh, wait, yes, you can. There are things you can do." And you hate to see your sibling be in a situation that doesn't feel like their partner is 100% behind them. Like, you really want them to be with a partner that is good and healthy for them

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  and is like their biggest champion and isn't holding them back in any way and in fact is propping them up. And when you see them with someone who either doesn't feel like they're at their level in terms of, you know, like who your sibling is and how great they are, or they're kind of holding them back in some way or they're demanding something of the sibling that doesn't feel fair, we feel like, "Ooh, I don't like that and I need to intervene." And it's really tricky because if you bring it up to your sibling, they probably won't tell you as much because they know that you now don't like the partner and that anything that they actually want to talk to you about to get real feedback on, they probably won't come to you because they think, "I can't tell my sibling this because now they're gonna have more ammunition to tell me why I should break up with this person."

• 1:16:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes. So, then what do you do? So, yeah. I mean, you know, Ashley and I are pretty lucky. We are brothers, both married women that we really like, that we're friends with.

• 1:16:58Speaker 02

  Let's say, what I see sometimes is, let's say that the partner of your sibling is creating some kind of weird codependent dynamic with your sibling. Like, they're always the victim and they always need help. And they're kind of like, your sibling wants to save the wounded bird. You know, like that partner is sort of the wounded bird. You know, you can just say, like, really gently, What's that like for you when your partner does this? Like, what's that like? I'm just wondering. I'm seeing that between the two of you. What's that like for you? And you're not judging it. You're not saying you should break up with this person. You're just saying, I'm just really curious. What's that like? And they might say like, it's fine.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  And you could say, huh, because it seems like sometimes it might be kind of taxing for you. But you're saying it's not. Okay. It's kind of like, I see you. You might not be able to acknowledge that I see you, but I see you. And sometimes people need to be seen before they can get out of denial themselves. They need someone else to be kind of the eyes and ears. And so you're just asking questions. And every time you don't ask the questions, you're kind of colluding with the denial.

• 1:18:11Rayna Greenberg?

  That is so interesting.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  So if you see something, like you're sitting at dinner and the partner says something that doesn't feel like they should have talked to your sibling that way. Later, you might say, I noticed this thing happened and it was hard for me to watch you be talked to that way. What was that like for you?

• 1:18:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I love that. And that's so perfect because you're not projecting your ideals of how they should feel onto them. You're not telling them how you observed it to be. You're just saying, how do you observe it to be? And they can tell you, probably they'll mirror what you already think about it, or maybe they'll keep it to themselves. But you're not projecting your own agenda onto them.

• 1:18:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, they might say something because they want to preserve the relationship because they're not ready to really consider that maybe it's not the right relationship. Maybe, you know, for all kinds of reasons, people stay in relationships too long and that's a whole other episode. But they might be at this place where they want to make this work no matter what, for whatever reason. And so you, by saying, hey, you know, that was hard to watch someone talk to you like that. That was how it was for me. What was it like for you? And they might say like, oh, I didn't even notice that. No, that's not what he meant. He didn't mean that. That's that you're taking it the wrong way. And you immediately back off. And you say, oh, okay, I totally misinterpreted that.

• 1:19:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  But they might think about it later, right?

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  Right, that's the point, because you do it often. You know, you do it whenever you see it. And, and, and so at a certain point, you're forcing them to look at something, even if they can only look at it for a millisecond while they're denying it. But in the process of denying it, they actually have to look at it for a second.

• 1:19:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hmm, I, I mean, this is, I think this is huge. And obviously, I think the theme of a lot of what we've talked about today is lead with curiosity. And it's just, I think it's so hard because you want to like scream like this is what they're doing. And how can you stand for this? But if you can hold back and restrain yourself into these small, tiny questions that, again, knowing that your only goal is to open their eyes a little bit. And then maybe you'll try it again the next time it happens. And it might be a really slow play because I think we get so fired up. And we love our siblings and we're like, I want you to break up with them today. And it just, that's not real life.

• 1:20:25Speaker 02

  Right, and sometimes it's the opposite where they come to you complaining all the time.

• 1:20:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  There is that too.

• 1:20:29Speaker 02

  Right, like I look at what this person did and they keep complaining about the same things. And sometimes our instinct as a sibling, like we would do with a friend that we love, is to say, oh, that's so hard, or you should break up with the person. And that's not what they're ready for yet. So what you need in that moment is to just kind of be a witness and a guide for them. So, you know, they're telling you this happened and you could say, it sounds like this keeps happening. Or this keeps happening a lot. Why do you think that is? You know, just ask them to, to kind of reflect on something like, do you notice that? That this keeps happening? Yeah, but he's working on it. You know, and you might say like, do you think it's getting better? Like, is it getting better for you?

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  Because, you know, they might say to you, yeah, kind of, I can see him improving a little bit. And you could say like, is it getting better enough for you? You know, like the next time you might say, is it getting better enough for you?

• 1:21:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, I think this stuff is, is so important. And I remember this one time we were on the beach with a friend of ours with her partner at the time. They'd since broken up. It was pretty, it was one of the worst breakups we've seen, honestly, in terms of just the sheer amount of heartbreak, the way it went down and everything. And I remember I asked her that day on the beach, like a question about their relationship purely out of curiosity. Like, yes, I had my judgments about it, but I don't care what she's going to do, her, she's a grown adult. She answered me so quickly and so defensively and like pulled me aside later and was like, what you said, I've really been thinking about it. And it like made her rethink it. And I was just asking a question to be curious that made her realize the way she'd been feeling about the relationship based on his actions.

• 1:22:03Rayna Greenberg?

  And we were having it with everybody. We said, what percentage of the time are you happy?

• 1:22:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:06Rayna Greenberg?

  And we were asking everybody.

• 1:22:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm not trying to be vague or coy. And she was kind of like, I don't know that most people are that happy all the time. A hundred this and that. I don't know if people go into their wedding day, a hundred percent sold on the person. I'm like, I don't, I disagree.

• 1:22:19Rayna Greenberg?

  I sure hope they do.

• 1:22:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. And I said, like, would you feel differently if you didn't feel like he kind of had one foot out the door? And she sat with it and she didn't really have an answer. And then she came again to me, to us later, Ryan and I are, you know, one in the same, and was like, I thought about it and you're, yes, I would be a hundred percent on him if I felt like he was a hundred percent on me. And they broke up a week later.

• 1:22:45Speaker 02

  That's where I think especially a sibling, so friends can do this like you did, and also especially for a sibling, because there's something about, I know you over time, like a really long time, you know, and there's something about just like, I've got your back. I think sometimes people are so afraid to break up with someone who's not right for them because they don't know how their family's going to respond. And either they feel too much pressure from their family, like the whole family from the beginning was like, this person needs to go. And then they feel like, oh, you won and I lost because I did what you guys wanted to do. So you can't come on that way. It's just too strong. It's too intense. They're not ready. But on the other hand, you don't want them to feel like, if

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  I break up, no one's going to support me because they said from the beginning, I told you so.

• 1:23:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 1:23:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, feeling it. It's very complicated.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Right. But it's like, it's like, they want to know that you're gonna be able to hold them in their grief and loss. And you're not going to say like, why are you even sad about this? This person sucked. Right? That's not what they want. They want like, I know there were so many things you really liked about this person. They need you to acknowledge that. I know there were so many things you liked about this person. And also, it wasn't working because of this, this and this. And it's so hard because both of those things are true. And I'm here for you.

• 1:24:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And also reading what they need because a week later, they might want to talk that shit. And then we'll be there for that, too.

• 1:24:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then if you really, because we're, Raina and I will always be those friends. Like, you want to hear what we really think about him? Because we'll.

• 1:24:17Rayna Greenberg?

  You've got to be careful, though, because a lot of times you tell people and then they get back together. And you know what? That's not my fault. That's not my fault. You baited me into a conversation and you made me say that I hated him because he deserves it. And that's a topic for another day. Lori, you're so amazing. I could talk to you for four more hours.

• 1:24:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. Thank you so much.

• 1:24:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Can you tell people what you're working on, where to find you, anything that you want to hype?

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  Sure. Yeah. So people can read, maybe you should talk to someone. There's a great workbook that I put out, which is sort of a step-by-step guide to changing your story, all the kind of unreliable narrators that we are and how do we create a narrative that helps us move forward? So the workbook has been really helpful for a lot of people. They can watch my TED Talk, which is all about changing your story. They can write to ask the therapist at nytimes.com. If they have an advice question, they might get me to answer. They should look out for a new podcast that I am launching in the fall, which is a new advice podcast. And in the meantime, they can listen to Dear Therapists if they want to hear actual sessions with people.

• 1:25:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Amazing. And you do that with Guy Winch, who also has been on our show multiple times. You're both so phenomenal.

• 1:25:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Twice, not three.

• 1:25:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  We got to get him on. We got to get him on one more time.

• 1:25:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but you're the three-peat for now. Well, thank you so much again. We love the conversation. It's going to be so impactful to so many people and thanks for joining us again.

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, my pleasure. Anytime.

• 1:25:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, bye. Okay, we hope you guys enjoyed that episode. You can find us at girlsgottaeat.com. Girl's Got to Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I'm Ash Hess. Come see me in Denver this weekend and maybe Raina. Ashhess.com for tickets. Raina is Rayna Greenberg on Instagram, so follow her as well. And of course, subscribe and watch on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend, maybe share it with your siblings and we will see Thursday.

• 1:26:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a great week, guys.

• 1:26:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.