These Chefs Want You To Talk Politics At Dinner (Reheat)

Tunde Wey learned to cook at home with his family in Nigeria. Sean Sherman grew up on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. Today they're both using food to explore politics and educate diners about the world beyond the dinner table.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  As someone who has been lucky enough to go to Napa Valley, I can tell you it's everything people say it is. Beautiful scenery, quaint, beautiful towns, and phenomenal food and drink everywhere you go. I don't even know that much about wine, but I know that every glass of wine I had in Napa Valley was excellent. I mean, there's no bad glass of wine and no bad meal. Choose between hundreds of wineries, tasting rooms, and chef-led restaurants from a low-key lunch on a vineyard terrace to a full tasting menu paired by the winemaker. Plan your trip at visitnapavalley.com. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you. Hey friends, Dan here with another reheat, and this one comes at the request of one of our listeners, Judith.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Hi, Sporkful team. This is Judith from San Francisco. I have a reheat suggestion for the episode with the Sioux chef, Sean Sherman, founder of the restaurant Awami in Minneapolis. I was there last summer and I really, really enjoyed the food. And also it made me realize how little I know about indigenous food, indigenous cooking in the United States. As far as I know, he's one of the few people with a restaurant that really focuses on pre-colonial food, and I thought that was really inspiring, so I'm looking forward to this episode.

• 1:38Dan Pashman?

  Well Judith, here you go. This is our 2018 episode with Sean Sherman, also known as the Sioux Chef. That's S-I-O-U-X, as in the Native American tribe. This one also features the writer, artist, and chef, Tunde Wey. Sean and Tunde are both using food to highlight larger political issues, and they're part of a long tradition of bringing food and politics together. Now, there's an episode you want us to pull out of the deep freezer and reheat. Do what Judith did. Drop us a line. Send me an email or voice memo to [email protected]. Include your first name, location, which episode you'd like us to reheat, and why. Thank you, Judith, and to everyone, enjoy. This episode of the Sporkful contains explicit language.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  I mean, when I was growing up, we used to, um, we used to watch a lot of European and American television and all the ads for food were like burgers, fries, chicken nuggets.

• 2:27Dan Pashman?

  This is chef and writer Tundaye Waye. He was born and raised in Nigeria. He came to the US when he was 16.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  All I wanted to do as soon as I got here was to have a burger.

• 2:37Dan Pashman?

  And when you arrived?

• 2:38Speaker 02

  That was the first thing that, after I, yeah, I was like, yo, take me to, take me to your leader at McDonald's. I was disappointed.

• 2:54Dan Pashman?

  And you were like, we need to open a Nigerian restaurant up in here.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, we need to fix this stat.

• 2:59Dan Pashman?

  Now Tundaye's 34. Over the past few years, he's been trying to do just that, to introduce Americans to Nigerian food. At pop-up dinners across the US, he cooks the recipes he learned from his family in Nigeria.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Africa as a continent is still regarded as a problematic place.

• 3:18Dan Pashman?

  Tundaye's dinner events aren't just about food. They're also about his experience as an immigrant and a black man in America. At each one, he leads a discussion on these issues, which he says includes respectful confrontation and a challenging of ideas.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  I want to create a space that speaks to the issues and the concerns that happen outside of the restaurant space. The food is a tool, it's a delicious tool, but it's pointing to something bigger.

• 3:48Dan Pashman?

  So Tundaye is bringing together food and activism, and that combination has a long history. Before women earned the right to vote, there were a bunch of suffrage-themed cookbooks that came out. During the civil rights movement, politically-minded cookbooks promoted cultural pride in the African-American community. Today, this kind of food activism is thriving. Julia Tershen's Feed the Resistance was Eater's Cookbook of the Year last year. Action Together Massachusetts published The Resistance Cookbook: Nasty Women and Bad Ombres in the Kitchen. An undocumented chef in Philly named Christina Martinez started hosting right-to-work dinner events. And that's just a sampling. Well, today on this porkful, we're featuring two chefs who are using food to spread their political messages.

• 4:31Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, Tundaye Waye talks about bringing his food to America. And then later in the show, Native American chef Sean Sherman talks about bringing back a food that's been here all along. Stick around.

• 4:55Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. The first email I ever got from Tunde Wey came in 2014. He asked us to feature his pop-up dinners here on the show. And he had this big running joke in the email about how, "Why would I want to cover Nigerian food? It's so overexposed already. It's already the latest hipster fad. Everybody knows about Nigerian food." It was a joke because he ends by saying, "There's still one thing folks don't know about it: everything." So I wanted to have Tunde on the show, but I wanted to do it in person so we could go out for Nigerian food together. I had never had it. We kept in touch as he moved from Detroit to New Orleans. He kept doing his pop-up dinners and writing,

• 5:37Dan Pashman?

  often exploring the intersection between food, politics, and identity. He wrote pieces like "The whitewashing of Detroit's culinary scene" and "Dining in the Age of Kaepernick", referring to Colin Kaepernick, the football player who knelt during the National Anthem. A few months back, we finally met up at Bukka, a Nigerian restaurant in Brooklyn. And after all that anticipation of us trying to get together, Tunde was underwhelmed by my podcasting setup.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  It's just you and two microphones.

• 6:03Dan Pashman?

  That's right.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  You're like a rapper and a DJ from like 1981. It's like, nothing, no.

• 6:10Dan Pashman?

  I haven't been to one of Tunde's dinners, but I think the meal we shared together gave me some idea of what they're like. At each one, he picks a theme: immigration, race, inequality, and sends out reading material a few days in advance. He puts conversation prompts at each table. And then, he leads a group discussion. As you'll hear, Tunde is funny and charming and not afraid of "respectful confrontation," to use his term. As we sat down, Tunde laid out the basics of Nigerian food to me. But he says, when he cooks for people who've never had it before, he tries not to explain it too much.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  I don't want to prejudice them and have them grope or reach for references that they've had and then limit the potential experience of eating something totally different. Like, before I ever had seaweed or sushi, there was nothing you would tell me. You couldn't explain sushi to me. I had to eat it. They like a couple of flavor profiles that we hit like smoky flavor, fermented flavor and like fatty oily from frying stuff.

• 7:14Dan Pashman?

  That sounds really good.

• 7:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like, yeah, yeah, it's good. Okay, so I'm gonna do this Oha soup. I've never had that before, but I've heard.

• 7:21Dan Pashman?

  Okay, goat cooked in a thick sauce made from Oha leaves, smoked fish and stockfish.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the smoked fish is the smoky flavor. The stockfish is the fermented flavor.

• 7:29Dan Pashman?

  Right. And what about up here too? We gotta make sure we get some agusi going.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's not a, you said entree. That's a, that's a sauce.

• 7:36Dan Pashman?

  I, I think the way this works is you pick like.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Are you gonna tell me how this works in a Nigerian restaurant? You gonna stand up here and tell me the way this works? I think I know how this works.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  But go ahead.

• 7:50Dan Pashman?

  Well, the way I think it works, Tunde, I'll defer to you, of course.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:54Dan Pashman?

  But um, is that you pick one of these meats and then you pair it with any one of these sauces.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Word. I think you're right.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 8:06Dan Pashman?

  Pretty soon, it was time to order.

• 8:09Speaker 02

  Okay, so we are going to do the goat with the agusi and amala. Then we're gonna do the edikankor. You, you have that, right? Do edikankor and.

• 8:21Dan Pashman?

  With apologies for my pronunciation, edikai kong is goat and tripe. Tripe is stomach. Cooked in spinach with crayfish, dried shrimp and periwinkle. Tunde ordered it with eba, which is fermented ground cassava or yuca root. Then he got us the agusi. That's a soup made with ground melon seeds and dried fish. And of course, jalafrice, a West African staple. It's made with a blend of tomatoes, hot and sweet peppers and other spices.

• 8:48Dan Pashman?

  While we waited for our food, we kept talking. Tunde came to the US in 2000 to go to college. As I said, he was 16 when he first set foot here in the land of burgers and chicken nuggets. And there are many things about America that he loves. In particular, what he calls the density of experiences. So many different people with different backgrounds. But his time here has been like that first bite of McDonald's. Not quite as great as it looked in the commercials. His political awakening began during the rise of Black Lives Matter in response to police killings of unarmed black men. Then there's his experience as an immigrant. Tunde came here legally, but after he left school and his student visa expired, he was officially undocumented. In 2014, while he was on one of his pop-up dinner tours,

• 9:32Dan Pashman?

  he was detained by immigration authorities in Texas. He was sent to a detention center for 20 days. He lost 12 pounds before getting bailed out by family. One year later, he married an American, which does help, but it does not automatically get him out of the woods. I know that you had an issue a while back with your immigration status. How's that doing now?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  It's doing OK. I'm still, like, I guess I'm still technically undocumented. I have a hearing that is as a result of being detained two years ago. At that court date, I, you know, I'm going to be asked sort of like why I shouldn't be asked to leave the country. And if my response isn't satisfactory, then it's going to be another court date where a decision will be made about what happens if I get to leave or stay. So protracted situation.

• 10:21Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:22Dan Pashman?

  Is it something you're stressed about?

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Only when I get interviewed about it. I mean, if you're undocumented, you're pretty vulnerable. And so you can't, you can't drive, you can't own property, you can't rent property, you can't go to school, you can't get a job. It's a pervasive and chronic life condition. At least for me, it's just further confirmation of how tenuous everything is. And it's even more tenuous because it's such a specific pain for a very small group of people. And it's largely neglected and ignored by the larger group. So first of all, people don't even, people don't understand that you're suffering.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  People don't, haven't, haven't, and can never experience that suffering. And so they can't relate to you. So that's, that's a very dangerous place to be in when the people whose mercy you are under have none because they just can't fathom what it means to be you. And so that has made me want to be more and try to be more vocal.

• 11:37Dan Pashman?

  Pretty soon, the food arrived.

• 11:38Speaker 02

  This is the goat head stew. It's spicy. This is real. This is real life right here.

• 11:42Dan Pashman?

  It's so tender. I can just tell by forking. And what's this one over here?

• 11:45Speaker 02

  This is a bar. This is just fermented cassava. It's a sort of vehicle they use to scoop up the stews. So you want to get some stew and scoop up.

• 11:54Dan Pashman?

  Okay. So you want to get a little bit of the cassava and then scoop the... Got it. I'm smelling like this... You said that there's...

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Fermented locust beans?

• 12:01Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, fermented.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that has fermented locust beans in it.

• 12:04Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Egusi.

• 12:06Dan Pashman?

  Egusi.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:09Dan Pashman?

  The goat was so soft and tender with a great kick. The jollof rice was excellent. But the part of the meal that left the most lasting impression on me was that fermented flavor in several of the dishes. Tunde's right. It's hard to describe. I can't really tell you what it tastes like, but I can give you an analogy. You know when you eat really strong funky cheese? We all have that point where the funk is just too intense and it overwhelms the experience, right? But if you can find a cheese that's just before that point, it's sort of magical. Hits you down deep. Of course, that point is different for everyone depending on your palate. I'll be honest. At first, the fermented funk was too intense for me. But after a few bites, I started warming up to it.

• 12:52Dan Pashman?

  I can imagine getting to the point where it hit me down deep, like it does Tunde. That being said, I did wonder how quick most Americans would be to embrace these unfamiliar flavors. And how far Tunde was willing to go to win them over. And I know you've talked in the past about wanting to open your own brick and mortar restaurants. I know you had the stand in New Orleans.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:13Dan Pashman?

  Is opening...

• 13:14Speaker 02

  You're just gonna call it a stand? It was a stall.

• 13:17Dan Pashman?

  A stall.

• 13:17Speaker 02

  In a food hall.

• 13:18Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:19Dan Pashman?

  Is that... I guess that's a little bit different.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a little different.

• 13:23Dan Pashman?

  And that was a... I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was a pretty... Sort of one of these kind of upscale food halls.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was pretty upscale. So, you know, the folks around me were serving... Fried like buttermilk fried chicken sandwiches with aioli. This guy made like a pimento cheeseburger. That that was good. Um, yeah, so it was all, and you know, and then there was a bar that just served cocktails and.

• 13:48Dan Pashman?

  And how did you feel having your food situated in that kind of environment?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  That wasn't necessarily, I think, the best thing for me to do.

• 13:55Dan Pashman?

  Why?

• 13:56Speaker 02

  I s- I served a bar, so that's like a starch ball and a gusi, which is the stew, um, the leafy stew. It's not a burger, it is not a taco, it is not like convenient in the conventional sense. I mean, it's convenient for me because it's delicious, you know? And so, um, yeah, and then, you know, the people would come and they would like come to my stand and. I did, you wanted to be adventurous, they'd be like, give me this, and I'll give it to them and then and they'll. Bring it back and like, ah, the consistency is off what's in here. I'm like, oh, it's a good head stew. Like, oh, I I don't want that anymore. And so and I I just stopped giving people food. I'm like, they they will come and ask for something.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  If it wasn't chicken, I would like taste it first, so you know what uh what you're getting.

• 14:43Dan Pashman?

  In terms of trying to get your food to break through to a larger audience, trying to introduce Nigerian food to people who would be largely unfamiliar with it. What what did you learn from that experience?

• 14:53Speaker 02

  I I learned that that I I didn't want to do that. I wasn't trying to break through to anybody. You know, that's what I learned. My business, it wasn't doing well, and uh I was asked by the management of the. Venue to like change up my menu, to like make it more, to do sandwiches and to do some other stuff. Not just them, but friends too al- also told me to do that. And I had come into that space with a very like particular idea, which is I'm cooking traditional Nigerian food. That was it. And I made like a sandwich, chicken sandwich that was delicious, that people loved, but I didn't want to be selling chicken sandwiches. You know, that's not what I wanted my my life to be about. I didn't want people to come to Nigerian food through a back door.

• 15:37Speaker 02

  Like, let me give you this thing so you can get to that thing. Like, no. Helping you on understand Nigerian food through this anglicized chicken sandwich.

• 15:48Speaker 02

  Doesn't do anything but reinforce your national privilege, you know, that you as an American can mold and meld the world to your taste buds.

• 16:00Dan Pashman?

  Right. I certainly understand what you're saying when you say that, you know, you didn't want to have to make certain compromises to appeal to certain groups of people and that's, I respect that, but if I can just kind of play devil's advocate a little bit, I think usually what happens is when a new cuisine gets introduced, you're right, the cuisine gets changed in a way in America to be more quote unquote marketable. Typically that means it's made more sweet, or maybe it's made more fatty, or maybe it's stuck in the middle of a sandwich, like you say, like, oh, look, now it's a goosey rito, now it's inside a burrito, look at this, you know, this is familiar to you now, you dummies, you can eat this.

• 16:42Dan Pashman?

  But I think that over time, while you're right, that's a compromise that has to be made in order to kind of like get a foot in the door and take the first step, American food and culture and American palates are also changed. I get what you're saying that there's kind of an underlying arrogance to the way that Americans view food, but I do think that like the food that Americans eat now, that many Americans eat now is very different from what we're eating 20 or 30 years ago. The idea that sriracha is everywhere, you know.

• 17:09Speaker 02

  But what are the consequences of the arrogance? That's what I'm saying. So it's not just, so if American food has changed over time because immigrants, for example, had to make compromises, have those changes added to the advancement of the immigrants? Or have they added to the idea of the grandeur of America? So that is like what I'm, what I'm trying to say, like, yeah, Americans have benefited from more expansive palates, but at what expense?

• 17:41Dan Pashman?

  I do understand what you're saying and I don't disagree. And maybe this is just my white American guy way of looking at things.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  It is. Go ahead.

• 17:55Dan Pashman?

  I totally understand that there's a problematic aspect to the fact that when a immigrant cuisine comes to America, it sort of has to bend to...

• 18:06Speaker 02

  It doesn't have to bend, but it bends.

• 18:08Dan Pashman?

  Right, or if it wants to, if it wants to sell a whole bunch of whatever things they're making.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  I don't think it has to bend. I think the examples where it doesn't bend.

• 18:17Dan Pashman?

  And still becomes very successful and crosses into mainstream.

• 18:19Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah. I just came back from Philly and I cooked a dinner at my friend's restaurant, South Philly Barbacoa, and he cooked traditional barbacoa. My friend and his, and his wife could have made tacos with beans and ketchup, whatever people do, to be more marketable, but she makes what she makes, which is in the tradition of her parents and her grandparents, because that's, that was the choice that she, that she decided on.

• 18:49Dan Pashman?

  I hear that, but I also kind of feel like that place may be able to succeed in part because like, people know barbacoa from seeing it on the menu at Chipotle.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:58Dan Pashman?

  You know, not that, not that your friend's place is doing it that way, but that, that was an entry point for white Americans, and then they, so when they go to a more authentic place, they're like, "Oh, I know barbacoa. That's the stuff I have at Chipotle." And now, it doesn't feel so quote-unquote foreign to them.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:16Dan Pashman?

  I do feel like there's some positive that comes from that.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's positives to everything, like, maybe there are one or two or three things in the universe that are exclusively bad, you know, exclusively good. So yes, there are some positives, but again, at what cost? There was a story about an immigrant in a small town, and he owned a restaurant, and he was loved by everybody in the town. I think he was Mexican. And after the new president came in, there was a crackdown, and then he was arrested. And when the folks in the town found out that he was undocumented and he had been detained, everybody sent a letter to the judge, and, you know, I think the end of the story is, like, the judge was like overwhelmed with all of the support that he had, and, and he was, I think he's been, he's been let out. People hear that story, they're like,

• 20:04Speaker 02

  "Oh my gosh, that's a fascinating, amazing story. This is the power of, you know, American generosity and love." But what that story is, is that...

• 20:13Speaker 02

  One person had to be detained, dehumanized, so that America can learn a lesson? You know, and that is fundamentally imbalanced. You know, that other people have to bend to privilege and power, you know, so that the people without privilege and power can survive. And the people with privilege and power can be entertained either by a lesson or by a meal.

• 20:43Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, while Tunde is trying to introduce a cuisine, chef Sean Sherman is trying to bring one back. It's the indigenous foods of his Native American ancestors.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Just really trying to, right now, right this wrong and reclaim this native food that was systematically taken away from a huge amount of people across the continent.

• 21:02Dan Pashman?

  Stick around.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  Time to cook up some advertisements.

• 21:21Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food. They also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done. The odors and stains have to be tackled. And I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes. And then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself. It lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house. We're very happy with it. And let me tell you, family of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry.

• 22:06Dan Pashman?

  So we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear. All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day. You put a lot of love into the things you send during the holidays. It's baked with love, carefully packed with love, or shipped with love right from home. Because what you're sending isn't just what's inside the box. It's the time, thought, and care you put into it. And this holiday season, the United States Postal Service is delivering your love to more addresses in America than anyone else. So send it with love. Send it with USPS. The United States Postal Service. Learn more at USPS.com/holiday.

• 22:50Dan Pashman?

  Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals. Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love like maple and brown sugar, and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker. Available at a store near you. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American Cheese. And now, Lando Lakes Cheese and Butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes Cheese and Butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table.

• 23:32Dan Pashman?

  From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking. Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 23:52Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sportful. I'm Dan Pashman. And hey, if you're looking for great Black Friday/Cyber Monday-type deals, I got some for you, and they involve pasta at a sweet, sweet price. Yes, all my Sfolini pastas, Cascatelli, Quattrini, and Vesuvio will be on sale starting Wednesday, November 27th, and continuing right through the following Tuesday, December 3rd. You can also pick up a special gift set, one box of each of those three pastas, plus my cookbook, Anything's Pasta-able, which makes for a great gift for the eater in your life. There's no code needed, there's no minimum. The discount will be automatically applied at checkout, so go get your shopping done at sfolini.com. That's S-F-O-G-L-I-N-I.com.

• 24:33Dan Pashman?

  Now, back to the show. Hey, Sean, can you hear me?

• 24:36Speaker 03

  I can hear you, yes.

• 24:37Dan Pashman?

  Hey, this is Dan in New York. How are you?

• 24:39Speaker 03

  I'm doing well, thanks. How are you?

• 24:40Dan Pashman?

  Good. Thanks so much for making time for us today.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 24:44Dan Pashman?

  Sean Sherman is a member of the Oglala Lakota Sioux Tribe of Native Americans. He was born on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota. His family moved to a nearby town when he was in elementary school. He got his first restaurant job when he was 13. Now, he's 43 and a trained chef. These days, he's based in the Twin Cities, which is where he was when we spoke a few weeks ago. So you're in, you're back in Minneapolis now, right?

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're in St. Paul right now.

• 25:09Dan Pashman?

  All right, cool. Do you know where Lake Josephine is?

• 25:12Speaker 03

  I don't.

• 25:12Dan Pashman?

  I know there's more than one lake in the area.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  There's like 16,000, I think.

• 25:17Dan Pashman?

  Well, my friends live by Lake Josephine in St. Paul.

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Okay, do you know where that's at?

• 25:21Dan Pashman?

  No. It's one, it's one, I just assume it's one of the lakes, Sean, you know, the lakes.

• 25:25Speaker 03

  It's one of the lakes.

• 25:30Dan Pashman?

  Growing up, I, uh, my parents bought Land O' Lakes cheese. Now that I think about it, was there a problematic Native American image on that label? I think so.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  There was a little bit, a little cultural appropriation going on there.

• 25:41Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. Oh, wait, I'm, uh, Googling Land O' Lakes and I was looking at their logo, which has this sort of like female Native American character holding a box of cheese.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  Right, there's a few issues with that.

• 25:54Dan Pashman?

  On the Pine Ridge Reservation where Sean was born, life expectancy is among the lowest in the country. And part of the reason is that when Sean's ancestors were forced onto reservations, they lost access to their native foods. They were stuck on land nobody wanted, with bad soil, little vegetation, not many animals to hunt. So now, they have to rely on US government food rations. Over the past few years, Sean has made it his mission to bring back the indigenous foods of his ancestors and to help other Native Americans do the same. He started a project called The Sioux Chef, S-I-O-U-X, get it? He does catering and dinner events, and he's working on opening a restaurant and education center. He recently published his first cookbook.

• 26:36Dan Pashman?

  It features dishes like cedar braised beans and smoked whitefish with white bean spread. Then there's one ingredient he uses a lot that I didn't recognize: choke cherries.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  Choke cherry is something that's just so unique and it just has this huge pit and they're supertanic and they're not very pleasant to eat fresh right off the tree. But when you cook them down and all the pits fall out of them and it just creates this amazing aroma and this really deep sauce. And it's just something for me that just whisks me back to being a young kid every single time because of that food memory of just that smell and the kitchens and things like that.

• 27:11Dan Pashman?

  And what are some of your early food memories?

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Well, you know, we grew up with a lot of the commodity foods that were out there. So if you look at the US government commodity foods, you'll see it's just a lot of canned goods. And it's unfortunate because it's not a very healthy program. And these foods have caused a lot of issues with type 2 diabetes and obesity and just a lot of, because it's just high saturated fats, lots of bad sugars, lots of salt. So like, we had a lot of that growing up. We did have things like fried bread. But you know, on the traditional side, we did have some more traditional pieces that were still, that had survived and were still there. So we had, you know, really simple dried meats. We had choke cherries and we had lots of game. You know, I started hunting at a really young age and we were able to gather things that were still around.

• 27:59Speaker 03

  But, you know, largely the food systems had been pretty much destroyed and people were reliant upon a lot of the government handouts by the time I was born and growing up in the 70s and 80s.

• 28:11Dan Pashman?

  I know that you, early in your life, you lived on the reservation. I know that you left with your mom in middle school. But when you would have those more traditional meals, are there specific ones that stand out in your mind? Is there a story that you can tell me about one of those times? Was there an understanding that it was special?

• 28:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, for a lot of the big family gatherings that we'd have, my grandmother would make a soup called taniga. A lot of times when I was growing up, it was made with beef intestine, but obviously it has traditional roots of using the bison intestine and probably any of the other large animals that were out there too. And it was really strong smelling and probably not for the faint of heart, but we knew when that was cooking that, you know, it was a special day and, you know, people would just be busy bustling around the kitchen and just, you know, family was getting ready to gather.

• 29:00Dan Pashman?

  Tell me a little bit about your grandparents and the food memories that you have with them.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Well, when I was growing up, my mom was the youngest out of her family. So her parents were ranching on Pine Ridge. And we grew up on their land ranching. And I think my grandfather had about, I want to say, 11,000 acres or something like that at that time. So there was just a lot of land or a lot of cattle to be pushed around. A lot of ranch jobs for us kids that were around. I had a bunch of cousins running around the landscape, too. My grandfather was in World War II in the Pacific. He was in the Battle of Midway. His father fought with Lakota at the Battle of Little Big Horn. We still have a cavalry settled at the ranch from that battle.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  You know, they treat Native American history like it's something that happened so long ago. It's like ancient history, why worry about it? But everything happens, basically, between the years of 1800 and 1900. Because at the beginning of 1800, still, like, over 80% of the entire, what is the US, is still under indigenous control at that point in time. By 1900, like, 1% of the land is under indigenous control. There's a lot of death that happened.

• 30:21Dan Pashman?

  So a big part of Sean's mission is to help Native Americans reclaim the food culture they've lost. But it's also to educate the rest of us about that history. Sean hosts dinners that begin with a prayer. And like Toon Day's dinners, often include uncomfortable conversations.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  It's people being curious but not knowing anything about it. But at least they're curious and they want to know. You know, I had one lady telling me, she has this big mansion out in Lake Minnetonka, which is a huge lake, very expensive area, and there's big houses. And she's like, "We have all these native mounds in our backyard, and I think it's so cool." You know, but that's such a weird thing to say. Because it'd be like if I set up camp in one of the graveyards in Minneapolis and be like, "Hey, I think some of your ancestors might be buried in my backyard," right? So it's just a lot of cultural insensitivities that people are so used to not thinking about.

• 31:12Dan Pashman?

  Earlier, you heard Sean mention fry bread. That's one of the more controversial foods among Native Americans. It's a flatbread, usually fried in lard or shortening. Imagine like a whole pita, except fried, crispy on the outside and doughy in the middle. Sometimes it's topped with meat and cheese and shredded lettuce and tomato, like the same stuff you would put in a hard-shelled taco. When it's on fry bread, it's called an Indian taco. And yes, that's what Native Americans typically call it too, in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way. Most people who grew up on reservations grew up with fry bread. So to some, it's the comfort food of their childhood. But to others, it's a symbol of oppression. After all, Native Americans didn't eat anything like fry bread before they were forced onto reservations.

• 31:56Dan Pashman?

  Sean admits fry bread tastes pretty great, but he doesn't serve it. I was looking at fry bread recipes online, and there's one that was submitted to a site by a woman named Mildred from Hartsell, Alabama. And she included a note with the recipe that reads, "While taking a trip to the Grand Canyon, my family drove through the Navajo Reservation and stopped at a little cafe for dinner. I complimented the young waiter on the delicious Indian fry bread, and he gave me the recipe. It's very easy to make." What do you make of a comment like that?

• 32:30Speaker 03

  People are just really not aware of the culture. You know, even today, we're still having a lot of conversations. There's still a lot of chefs promoting fry bread. And we really just feel that it's important to not promote that piece and to move away from it and to really promote what is important, which is the knowledge that was taken away. I've had people ask me, "How did Native Americans get to Minnesota?" You know, like, how did they get there?

• 32:57Dan Pashman?

  Minnesota, they didn't get to Minnesota, Minnesota got to them.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  A little bit. It's just a result of that education that's out there, you know?

• 33:05Dan Pashman?

  I understand what you're saying about fry bread in particular, but just in general, I wonder like, when a woman named Mildred from Alabama travels to the Grand Canyon and eats Indian food, to use her term, and says, "This is delicious, I want the recipe." You know, it's like, I hear what you're saying that it's problematic on certain levels and it's not the traditional food of the Navajo people. But I do wonder if something positive happens in that exchange. Mildred has eaten a food that she never ate before and she associates it with people that she hasn't met before. And those people start to feel less foreign to her as a result. Is there something positive there?

• 33:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I get that, but there's absolutely no reason that fry bread should represent every single one of those tribes out there. It's going to be better if we can reclaim a lot of these indigenous food systems from within our own tribes to really showcase the true culture through the food, with the food that's really been there for a long time. Because this food is kind of like, a lot of these plants that have been around us that have been utilized, they're kind of like our ancestors too, because they've been alongside us most of this whole time. Fry bread is really a symbol of that oppression. It's a symbol of that forced reliance on government commodities, utilizing wheat flours and lards and salts and sugars and things that weren't there before, but things that have caused an immense amount of problems with health. You know, it's not fun to see family members pass away with type 2 diabetes.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  And we have communities with upwards of 60% type 2 diabetes because of the reliance on some of these foods. You know, we feel like it's, you know, we have to be strong with the mission that we're standing on.

• 34:53Dan Pashman?

  That's Chef Sean Sherman. He and his partner Dana Thompson are co-founders of a nonprofit called NATIVES. That's North American Traditional Indigenous Food Systems. They're working to educate Native people across the continent about their food culture. And they're planning to open a culinary training center and restaurant in Minneapolis in the next year. They're also working on a for-profit restaurant on the Mississippi River in Minneapolis that they hope to open in 2019. Shaun's cookbook is The Sioux Chef's Indigenous Kitchen. That's S-I-O-U-X. It's out now. If you want to learn more about their work, go to sioux-chef.com. This show is produced by Ann Sannie and me, Peter Clowney is our editor. Music help from Black Label Music. Special thanks to Joan Gunderson Palmer and to the

• 35:35Dan Pashman?

  folks at Buca, the Nigerian restaurant in Brooklyn, for their hospitality. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher. Our executive producers are Chris Bannon and Jenny Radley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 35:45Speaker 05

  And I'm Liz Wing from Somerville, Massachusetts, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 36:11Dan Pashman?

  This reheat was produced by

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Gianna Palmer.

• 36:14Dan Pashman?

  The team that produces The Sporkful today includes me along with managing producer

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Emma Morgenstern.

• 36:19Dan Pashman?

  And senior producer

• 36:20Speaker 06

  Andres O'Hara.

• 36:21Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producers are Nora Ritchie and Colin Anderson. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 36:58Speaker 06

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change, your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5. Only at McDonald's for a limited time. Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.

• 37:13Dan Pashman?

  As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean. Whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider.