Early Medieval Croatia

What if everything you think you know about medieval Croatia is wrong? Dr Eleanor Janega is joined by Professor Florin Curta to uncover how Dalmatia’s coastal cities defied “Dark Age” collapse, why Slavic identity may have been a political invention, and how frontiers became homelands in a zone contested by Franks, Byzantines, Venetians and Hungarians. Discover the extraordinary archives, churches and cultures that made medieval Croatia uniquely complex. MORE The Hussite Wars: Crusades Against Bohemia Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/the-hussite-wars-crusades-against-bohemia/id1564113746?i=1000712606235 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/2uElzdB0FwWTaQ3GAQ7490 Teutonic Knights Listen on Apple https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/teutonic-knights/id1564113746?i=1000683294739 Listen on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/episode/0gUpGPLW74wnhDm7MI5h6V Gone Medieval is presented by Dr. Eleanor Janega. Audio editor is Tim Arstall, the producer is Rob Weinberg. The senior producer is Anne-Marie Luff. All music used is courtesy of Epidemic Sounds. Gone Medieval is a History Hit podcast. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Matt Lewis?

  From long-lost Viking ships and kings buried in unexpected places, to tales of murder, power, faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond. Join me, Matt Lewis, Dr Eleanor Janiger, and some of the world's leading historians as we bring history's most fascinating stories to life, only on History Hit. With your subscription, you'll unlock hundreds of hours of exclusive documentaries with a brand-new release every week, exploring everything from the ancient world to World War II. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:42Speaker 01

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• 1:16Eleanor Janega?

  Hello, I'm Dr Eleanor Janiger, and welcome to Gone Medieval from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gob-smacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to popes, to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were, and how we got here.

• 1:50Eleanor Janega?

  Picture this: the sun-drenched Dalmatia coast, where the sapphire Adriatic laps against ancient stone walls.

• 2:01Eleanor Janega?

  We think we know this place with its Venetian harbors and Roman ruins. But what if everything we thought we understood about medieval Croatia was wrong? Who were the people who built the first Croatian kingdom along this contested coastline? What if their very identity was far more complex, more contested, more fascinating than the simple narratives we've inherited? How did Dalmatia's unique position between the Latin West and the Greek East, between emerging Slavic societies and fading Roman traditions, create a medieval world that defies our modern categories?

• 2:44Eleanor Janega?

  Today, I'm joined by Professor Florin Curta from the University of Florida, whose groundbreaking work has fundamentally changed how we understand the birth of nations in Eastern Europe. Professor Curta doesn't just read the chronicles, he excavates the silences between them. He's argued that the Slavic identity itself may have been less in ancient ethnic truth and more a political instrument forged in the crucible of Byzantine frontier politics. It's a perspective that has sparked fierce debate and, hopefully, we'll be enjoying a little bit of that here today. We'll discover a Dalmatia that was never a passive recipient of civilizations, but

• 3:27Eleanor Janega?

  an active architect of its own destiny. The story of how frontiers became homelands, how identities are forged in conflict, and how the medieval world of Dalmatia shaped the Europe we know today. Professor Curta, welcome to Gone Medieval.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  Thank you, thank you for having me.

• 3:45Eleanor Janega?

  Well, I'm very pleased to have you because I have brought you here in order to up the amount of Slavicism happening on Gone Medieval. And in particular, kind of a tricky one to get you on today because we want to talk about medieval Croatia and Croatia as a concept really ebbs and flows in the medieval period. And also, it's difficult to cram this all into one show because this is an area where we have just absolutely excellent documentation for the entirety of the medieval period and before, so it's hard to know where to start.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  I would say, adding to that, that in addition to the written documentation, which I think you had in mind, there's been an explosion of archaeological research and historical, should I say, synthetic works based on that. Or at least trying to combine the written with the archaeological evidence with fascinating results. I would say probably one of the most dynamic areas of historical slash archaeological research in the pool of the Balkans.

• 4:49Eleanor Janega?

  Which is really saying something as well, because there are exciting things coming out of the field of Balkan studies constantly. I've worked for a while on the Laws of Medieval Croatia project, so I'm a little in the weeds on this one, I must admit that. But I suppose if we were going to start talking about medieval Croatia, I think that we actually sort of have to begin before the so-called fall of the Roman Empire. I think that 476 is actually even a little bit late for our purposes, because what are we looking at before Western Rome falls?

• 5:25Speaker 03

  So the area we're talking about here is, I'm gonna say divided, but constituted a major province, Dalmatia. In other words, the geography of the area makes it clear that one would have the eastern shore of the Adriatic Sea with a number of cities. There's a specific feature, geographically speaking of that area, a large number of large and small islands along the coast, providing excellent shelter for ships, so harbors. And, you know, beyond a narrow strip of land on the coast, you get the mountains. And beyond the mountains, it's a completely different landscape culturally, obviously

• 6:06Speaker 03

  geographically and historically speaking, which is why most people actually link Dalmatia to developments within the larger Adriatic Sea, which obviously would actually have been a Roman thing to do. Before even the empire, so this is actually probably already a republican development, a development of the republican phase of Roman history. And the interior, which posed problems of government, problems of transportation, roads, you know, things like that. As a consequence of which, the present day territory of Croatia is in fact divided between two, maybe even three provinces. So what we call northern Croatia nowadays was part of Pannonia in the Roman Empire.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  I should say that Illicum as a whole, in other words, the area in the western, northwestern Balkans was a province or a region of interest for the Romans. You mentioned when to start, maybe at the time of the three Punic Wars even, something like that, right? So BC by all means, and republican government as I said. But if we are going to go into medieval developments, I would say that, number one, you're right, 476, the so-called fall of the Roman Empire. In fact, the end of the Roman Empire as an institution, not a fall, properly speaking, does not have much of a bearing on the area here, nor does its accompanying label, great

• 7:36Speaker 03

  migrations, barbarians coming in. As a matter of fact, in the history of the Balkans, this region is very interesting in the sense that there is very little, I'm not saying that it was completely devoid of so-called barbarian invasions, but their impact on the region is much, much smaller than that, let's say, the central Balkans or areas further to the east, like in present day Bulgaria or Greece even. So well into the sixth century, definitely within the, within the two decades of the seventh century, there's not much evidence of destruction perpetrated supposedly either by the fall of the Roman Empire or by the barbarian invasions. Since the interior was very rich in metal ores, there's even evidence of mining.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  Right at the border between what would be today Croatia and Bosnia, specifically on the upper Neredva Valley. And, you know, the mining there, as far as we can tell, may have well survived or can continue rather well into the sixth century. That brings a peculiar Roman flavor, which, I mean, explains why this region is distinct in the whole of Europe for another reason. After, in the post-Roman era, there is no evidence of discontinuity in the urban environment. In other words, on the Dalmatian coast, you have places like Zadar, like Trogi, like Split, that continued with no interruption whatsoever from the Roman into the modern times, I should say, because they're still occupied. So there is no gap.

• 9:04Speaker 03

  There is no such thing as a demise of the cities, maybe revived in the Middle Ages and so on. So obviously, they shrank in size, but, you know, the transformations taking place could by no means be described in terms of destruction, catastrophe, et cetera.

• 9:18Eleanor Janega?

  And these are sizable cities as well. I mean, these are cities that have a real footprint.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  Spalato was, you know, quite clearly large. I mean, even if they were not as large as, let's say, Simion further up north, Sremskamitrovica nowadays, or Thessaloniki nowadays in northern Greece. You know, they were smaller than that. They had a political significance. Consider the fact that after introducing the form of the Roman government in the late third century, known as the Tetrarchy, Emperor Diocletian, who was a member of the first team, decided to retire. And where did he go? Spalato.

• 9:55Eleanor Janega?

  Exactly. I mean, I think that it's going to be somewhere where a lot of our visitors may have seen because, you know, Split is this big tourist destination anymore for just that reason. I'm quite interested, though, in this point that you've made about how we don't see that much disruption at this point in time in this sort of Roman successor states period. Because we do see so-called barbarians move into the area. I mean, at least around what is now Zagreb, we certainly see some Ostro-Gothic intrusions. But we just don't see the same level of... Violence or at least upheaval?

• 10:32Speaker 03

  The area beyond the mountains, let's say, let's put it this way. So northern Croatia nowadays had a name in Roman and post-Roman times, Liburnia. That area is indeed, or witnessed indeed, not the destruction, but the disappearance, simply abandonment of large urban settlements, probably as early as the fourth century. But that has nothing to do with the invasions themselves. It may have something with the processes taking place inside the empire. In Slavonia, which is the region you mentioned, Zagreb being most prominent in the area there, the present capital of the country. That's an area which is in fact the southern part of the province of Panonia, which I mentioned earlier on. And its history, including the presence or absence of barbarians in the area, is linked to developments there.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  What is very interesting is that whatever developments were there had no reflection, or very little reflection, on developments on the Almation coast, the two being separated by mountains. So let's say you have indeed, you have the Ostrogoths in the area, you know, under Theodoric moving through the area towards Italy, which they conquer. You have the Lombards there later on, right? Descending into the same region of Italy, through the same area. It's a must, right? Two areas that connect Panonia with Italy, northeastern Italy, would be involved in this no matter what you do. This is the area of Slavonia, of present-day Croatia, and Slovenia too. So the neighboring country to the northwest. There is no way you can avoid that because in order to pass or to cross to the passes of the eastern Alps, you have to go through there, coming from Panonia, that is.

• 12:03Speaker 03

  But all of this is almost parallel, almost like nothing, no results, no echoes in the settlements on the coast, on the coastal of the Adriatic Sea. So those are, sometimes they're parallel developments. Almost like you have two distinct history lines to actually connect them. Every now and then, there are connections. For example, later on in the sixth century, when the Abors come into Panonia. Into the present day area of Hungary. We learn from a source in Constantinople that the abors sent a group of kutrigus. Those were nomads from the steppe lands north of the Black Sea, which they had probably drawn on all the way to Paronia, sent them all to Dalmatia. And they sacked some of the towns there and so on and so forth. And there has been some attempt to actually link a few cases

• 12:45Speaker 03

  in which on fortified sites in continental Croatia, you see burnt layers, layers of destruction in archaeological terms, to link it to the presence of the kutrigus there. But it's very little actually of them. And in fact, the source tells us that although they were sent to Dalmatia, they were actually stalked by Roman troops that actually managed to ambush them. In the end, it was not so much destruction of the Roman settlements in the area as of the troops, abors or kutrigus that sacked them.

• 13:16Eleanor Janega?

  So what do we see then in these areas with the arrival of the Slavs? Because I was given to understand that certainly we do see Slavs move into the area around Dalmatia. But this doesn't seem to make a huge dent in terms of the makeup of, for example, the patrician class in towns. You know, it seems to be that there are sort of old school Dalmatians who are controlling the cities and Slavs are a little bit more in the countryside. But is that overly simplistic as a way of seeing it?

• 13:45Speaker 03

  It's problematic. The reason, there are three reasons I can think of that actually makes it problematic. Indeed, what you just said earlier on is the traditional, the scenario offered by the traditional historiography, thinking that in the case of the Dalmatian coast, Croatia and whatnot, northwestern Balkans, the actual migrations, Greek migrations, are not those of the Ostrogoths or the Lombards or the Huns or whatever, but those of the Slavs, which obviously will be late. The problem is, this is the second element. The problem is that recent scholarship, recent studies, I include myself in that, not, you know, to blow my own horn, but because I actually did offer a comparative view with the situation of the Slavs on the Lower Danube, around 500,

• 14:27Speaker 03

  with that, south of the Danube, including the areas of northwestern Balkans. But others have picked up on my ideas. A Australian historian, for example, of Bosnian-Croatian origin, Daniel Gino, who is a professor in Sydney. You know, he wrote a book about this. Actually, there's no evidence in the written sources of Slavs settling in the area. We know that they're actually coming to, or mentions of them invading, not the area here, but actually Istria. So in the northern part of the Adriatic Sea, away from Dalmatia and Croatia, continental Croatia, properly speaking. But there is no written source saying that they settled in the area.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  Moreover, archaeologically speaking, since this is actually the argument that is usually made for the period we're talking about here. The archaeological evidence does indicate in certain cases, like the number of churches that seem to be destroyed by fire. But there is no reason for which this will be done by the Slavs. Moreover, again, there are no settlements. Probably the most interesting aspect of this discussion is that the pottery, from an archaeological point of view, all over Europe, the Slavs are identified, let's put it this way, by at least three elements. One is the sunken floor buildings, sunken on purpose in order to create an isolation for the inhabitants. Either warmer in the winter or cooler in the sun. No such thing in Croatia, none so far.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  Handmade pottery of a certain attributes, so-called Prag-type pottery. After settlements and cemeteries excavated in the 20s and 30s of last century in the city of Prague. And indeed, there is no evidence of that kind of pottery that could be dated the 7th century in the area either. And perhaps the most impressive of all elements, cremation cemeteries. Given the fact that by the time we're talking about here, so 4th, 5th century, 6th century, within this area under Roman control, infumation was the predominant, right? You would expect cremation to stand out, precisely in the sense of like a contrast agent, if you want. Or the presence of those barbarians, whomever they are, okay?

• 16:33Speaker 03

  The earliest cremation cemeteries that have been radiocarbon dated on the territory of present-day Croatia cannot be dated before year 700. So, and most likely are not linked to the invasions that we're talking about here. So what do we do with this? I proposed initially, and Daniel, you know, developed the argument even further, that probably no invasions actually took place in Dalmatia. And the presence of the Slavs that you mentioned earlier on is actually an acculturation process. In which language must have been involved. And that brings me to the last part of your question. Indeed, that must have affected the rural areas, not the urban ones. Or if they affected the urban ones, that's a way later phenomenon of the

• 17:16Speaker 03

  High Middle Ages and Late Middle Ages, the earliest times when we hear from the written sources that Slavic speaking population had access into the cities. The cities remained Roman. The countryside changed. Changed not just in terms of language, there are other changes happening in the area there. The patterns, economic patterns of the cultivation of the soil that existed in Roman times are abandoned in favor of much simpler forms. So this is not an ethnic or not only an ethnic change. Nobody denies that there may have been people coming from the north, probably from the area of the our Caganate, which I mentioned is Panonia, right? So nobody denies the possibility of small scale migrations, but nothing like a huge mass of people

• 18:00Speaker 03

  coming into the area and replacing the local population. On the contrary, but there is clear indication of a fundamental change in the social and economic profile of the area between, let's say, six hundred and eight hundred.

• 18:12Eleanor Janega?

  I think that that is a far more interesting story, actually. Because I think it's so easy to kind of.

• 18:18Speaker 03

  That's the evidence. I mean, I'm not trying to convince anyone, that's what it is. If anybody can can tell a better story, let's hear it.

• 18:25Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, let's hear it. It's so interesting, you know, like obviously as someone who's who works on the Czech lands, you know, we have these really obvious incursions of Slavs. We do, you know, I've worked on, I've worked on digging up some of the of the cemeteries, you know.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Here, the problems are more like dates. Indeed, we have evidence from the written sources of a polity of a, I don't want to call it a state, but some do. With the information in question comes from a chronicle, seventh century chronicle, Frankish chronicle, attributed to one unknown author whom later historians called Fredegar. And the chieftain, also called king by Fredegar. Of that polity is a man named Samo. And Samo ruled over the winds. Exactly where Samo's polity was is not quite clear, but at least some parts of the present day Czech lands may have been covered by it. There's also quite clear evidence of a seventh century massive presence of the elements I just described to you, all three, right? In the Czech lands, but not earlier than that.

• 19:25Speaker 03

  So area of present day Czech Republic, Slovakia and northeastern Austria, the argument is not so much whether or not your Slavs are coming. If they are coming, where they are coming from? Are they coming from areas, let's say further to the east, such as Ukraine? Or they are coming from the Carpathian basin, from the area at that time already conquered by the Arabs? And at what moment in time? In Dalmatia and in the entire area of northwestern Balkans, I include in this Bosnia as well. It to some extent is true for Serbia, but only to some extent. The argument is completely different. There is no evidence of migration whatsoever. So you have to provide an explanation that actually would emphasize the social and economic transformations, not so much the replacement of one group of population with another.

• 20:10Eleanor Janega?

  So you've mentioned now that some of the sources that we're using for this are coming via the Franks. And this is sort of by the time we get to the ninth century, there is some sort of back and forth between the Eastern Roman Empire and the Franks as to who is going to control Dalmatia. Can you tell us a little bit about what happens there?

• 20:29Speaker 03

  So the encroachment, Frankish encroachment to this area comes as a direct consequence of two historical processes. One is the incorporation of Bavaria into the Frankish realm. Bavaria had been connected with the Franks for quite some time right now, but it also by virtue of matrimonial alliances was connected to Lombard Italy, both of which were close to what we're talking about here, the northwest. And the second, probably most important aspect, the defeat of the Arabs by the Frankish armies under Charlemagne. It is after that, after the defeat, the demise of the Arabs, that a true march-like intrusion into the area through the extension of the Duchy of Friuli in what is today northeastern Italy.

• 21:13Speaker 03

  So the area on the northern shore of the Adriatic Sea becomes significant. Now, two points here about this that actually explain the conflict, as you mentioned, between the Franks and the Byzantines. Number one is who's going to have control of Istria, which besides the fact that has a role in the navigation routes, in the sailing routes in the northern part of the Adriatic Sea, was in fact a granary, another area in which you don't see any destruction whatsoever. Until the ninth century, it's almost like a smooth continuity from late antiquity to the Middle Ages. We have a fantastic document called the Placitum. It's minutes of judicial meeting, let's put it this way, of Rizano, or Rizano nowadays, describing the realities on the ground in Istria

• 21:57Speaker 03

  in a way that is without peril anywhere in Europe at that time. And it looks like Roman society, the document itself is ninth century, early ninth century. So that's one. And the other partly equally significant is the presence of Venice in the area. Venice, a city in Italy that has no Roman roots, it's a medieval city in the truest sense of the word, was at that time part of the Byzantine Empire. And Venetians are by now rising to actually control the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea. So out of this quite complex configuration comes a conflict, right, between the Franks and the Byzantines, complicated by two other phenomena. The rise of, most likely, the rise of some kind of party or chiefdoms

• 22:42Speaker 03

  of the local Slavs, as you mentioned them, in Croatia proper, and the earliest raids of the Arabs coming from the Mediterranean Sea against some of the towns on the southern part of the East Adriatic coast. Ragusa, Presidente Dubrovnik, was put under siege by the Arabs towards the end of the ninth century. The agreement between the Franks and the Byzantines in the area was reached, the so-called Treaty of Aachen, through which the Byzantines retained control over the coast because they wanted to have control over those towns that remained Roman, as I mentioned. They retained formal control over Venice as well. The Doge of Venice was essentially a duke, that's what the Italian word actually means,

• 23:26Speaker 03

  of the imperial administration in Byzantium, while the Franks retained control of Istria. Hence the Plaquita of the of the Jana dimension to you and the interior. In other words, away from the coast in what is today Croatia proper. Those are the circumstances in which there is an explosion of Frankish influence, Frankish culture, Frankish weapons, Frankish modes of thinking in the interior, which all of which are connected to the rise of Croatia as a medieval state.

• 23:56Eleanor Janega?

  And then we get in the actual rise of Croatia and the establishment of a kingdom that we can point at and call Croatia in about four twenty five, is that correct?

• 24:06Speaker 03

  No, no. So the developments, the developments that we talk about here. So the earliest Frankish influence that we can talk about is probably middle or second half of the eighth century. But the true developments, the explosion and all of that is shortly after eight hundred, coincides in other words with Charlemagne's involvement in the area and the involvement of his successor, Louis the Pious, in the area as well. Then there's a number of dukes, a number of rulers, right? That are mentioned either in local inscriptions, maybe we can talk about this, or in the correspondence of the Pope, who's clearly interested in exactly when those people got became Christian, nobody knows. There is no mission, there is no nothing. But suddenly the Popes are interested in that area as if it has already a tradition

• 24:50Speaker 03

  of being Christian for quite some time. So from the letters or the inscriptions, we're learning about a number of dukes. They are called dukes, right? Branimir is one of them, for example, or Tripimir even earlier. And then by the tenth century, so after nine hundred, okay? We hear from the correspondence of the Pope in relation to a couple of synods, church gatherings that took place in split, nine twenty five, nine twenty eight. In relation to that, we hear that the ruler, the chief, the leader in the area there, Tomislav, is not called a duke anymore, he's called a king. So if you want to really put your finger on the technology of the area, I'll say around nine hundred or around there, at least in the eyes of the Pope,

• 25:33Speaker 03

  this individual is not a duke anymore, he's not a small leader, he's a king.

• 25:38Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, see, that's, I suppose that I'm quite familiar with this specific origin story of Tomislav being the king and then. I'm kind of tacking it on to the idea that, ah, this is a kingdom now. But I guess that I'm also really dependent on people correspondence for that idea as well. So, yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 03

  So the synod is very interesting. There are a lot of issues to discuss, to be discussed, but in both 925 and 928, three issues on the agenda of those councils stand out. One, apropos of earlier discussion about which towns, which cities were important in the area here. Both synods took place in Split, and there was a bishop there, obviously, in Split, but it seems that had been a conflict of some sorts between the local bishop in Split and the bishop of a town, city, whatever you call it, further up north. That's on the northern part of an area peninsula next to Zadar called Ravni Katar. The town in question is Nyn, and we have no idea when that bishop was created there.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  Probably in the context of the power center of the earlier dukes of Croatia being there. That area, northern area of Ravni Katar, is called to this day Vihrva Tih. In other words, the area of the Croats, and maybe you can talk about this. Croats is probably not an ethnic name initially, but the name of an aristocratic group, the ruling group, the elite. Be that as it may, that bishop in Nyn is in some kind of dispute with Split, probably because they cannot decide which, where should the boundaries between their respective dioceses be placed. That's the context in which the popes' legates, the envoys of the popes, want to intervene and settle the affairs there. The final decision in that respect was to abolish the bishopric of Nyn,

• 27:27Speaker 03

  and that turned the bishop of Split into an archbishop. He was, in other words, a metropolitan by now, with jurisdiction not just over the entire Dalmatian coast, but over the interior as well. Historians therefore think that this may have been a deal with Tomislav, whereby he agreed to have that bishopric of Nyn, which had been probably under control of his predecessors, abolished in exchange with now having a single kingdom, Croatia, and a single church based on the archbishopric of Split, who became, in other words, the primate. Of the country.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  A second aspect discussed at both council was whether or not to use Slavonic as the liturgy, right? This is the first time we hear about this. In fact, in a letter to the bishops in Dalmatia, the Pope, I think it's John the 10th, if I'm not mistaken, I'm not quite, I'm not quite sure which one, but I think it's the Pope, right? Writes, "I want you to move away from what he calls metodidoctrina, the teachings of Methodus." Now, as far as we know, Methodus never reached Croatia. So neither Constantine slash Cyril or Methodus came to this area ever. In other words, their, their teachings were coming from Moravia, from the eastern part

• 28:49Speaker 03

  of present day Czech Republic, all the way down, right? By some sort, we don't know exactly how it's happened. But from this moment onwards, the use of Slavonic for the liturgy and use of glagolitic as opposed to the Cyrillic alphabet for rendering the sounds of the language becomes a matter of identity in Croatia, at least for, for some people in the area, specifically churchmen. The third element in this discussion, and there's a third point on the agenda of the two councils, I mean, it's 925, 928, is how, in fact, legates or envoys of the Pope that will come from now on into Croatia will have actually a particular place to stay all the time. In other words, there's a concern with establishing a regular line of communication between Rome

• 29:34Speaker 03

  and the Croatian kingdom.

• 29:36Eleanor Janega?

  But I think this is a really important point because we do have, to an extent here, i- it's like clash between the church and Constantinople, right? Because Constantinople very much considers that this area should be at least somewhat under their sphere of power. Is that correct?

• 29:55Speaker 03

  Correct, you're right. And by the way, there's a revival of the Byzantine influence. So now it looks like in the 9th century, it's receding. I should immediately say that In response to this encroachment of the Franks, the Byzantines create the technical war for the province in the Byzantine Empire during this time is theme, not the theme of a musical piece or the theme of a novel, a theme, thema, which meant a province in which the general leading the troops recruited from that area was also the governor, civilian attributes, and the supreme judge there. Okay, so it's a very decentralized form of government unlike that of the earlier Roman Empire.

• 30:36Speaker 03

  It's a reaction of the Byzantines to the stress and to the shrinking borders, specifically the fight with the Arabs in East. So in the area here, Dalmatia is transformed into a theme, into a province, exactly this moment in time. Headed, the general that I mentioned to you was actually, his residence was in Zadar. So Zadar is very interesting. Split is in the south, Zadar is next to Nime, as I mentioned earlier, on the two centers. The north remain Byzantines, the south, or center rather, is maybe not Frankish but clearly pro-Roman in the sense of the pro, or the Church of Rome. We move into the centuries of the 11th century, there is a restoration of Byzantine, first half of the 11th century, there's a restoration of the Byzantine rule in the area here, quite clearly influenced there.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  As you move into the second half of the 11th century, as you know, in 1054, there's a split of the church with the Great Schism, west and east, Catholic and Orthodox. Nobody seems to be concerned about this here. There's no animosity, there's no condemnation, there is no either from either side. And in the 12th century, the last time, under Manuel I, Komnenos, this is third major emperor of the Komnenian dynasty, established by Alexius Komnenos, the emperor who called for the Crusades in the first place. Well, he didn't call for the Crusades, he called for help, but the Crusades ensued from that, right? And under Manuel, there's actually a deep involvement in the area with an Archbishop of Split, Reiner, traveling all the way to Constantinople, you know, showered with gifts and whatnot.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  Reiner is a Catholic bishop. He's well received in Constantinople by a Byzantine emperor.

• 32:11Eleanor Janega?

  Wow, that is really interesting.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  And, you know, all of this is happening within three or four decades before a Pope, Alexander III, coming from Rome, in his trip to actually get in touch with and negotiate with Emperor Frederick Barbarossa, stops in Zadar.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  So well, the Roman Catholic clergy in the area, there are two points of pressure. The competition with the Orthodox clergy, but really that's not an issue until the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders, 1204. And you know, the, the, the actual, the actual fault lines, bad lines, you want to put them between the Orthodox and the Catholic in the area are rather a high medieval or late medieval phenomenon. Okay, number one. Number two, in the High Middle Ages, in 11th, 12th, 13th century, there's a conflict between the papacy and the Holy Roman Empress, German Empress. And there's a reflection on that in the area here. In fact, I would go, I would go as far as to say that the end of the independence of the Kingdom of Croatia, right?

• 33:16Speaker 03

  In the late 11th century, comes as a consequence of just that, not as a consequence of the conflict between Rome and Constantinople.

• 33:35Speaker 04

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• 34:09Speaker 05

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• 34:39Speaker 06

  If you love a good story, why aren't you listening to Dan Snow's History Hit Podcast? It's a show where we tell you every amazing, crazy and important thing that's ever happened in human history. From the perilous voyages of the first Polynesians, the discoveries of Captain Cook, the deadly Viking raids on Britain and Ireland, the rise and fall of the great English kings and queens. We'll tell you how Waterloo was won, the Alamo was lost, and all the history in between. So make sure you check it out, Dan Snow's History Hit, for the best true stories ever told, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:32Eleanor Janega?

  That is incredibly interesting, because I just don't know that there's anywhere else I can really say we see the same set of circumstances. And it's just testament to, I suppose, almost the diplomatic powers of the people who live in this place, and also how important they are. You know, this is a group of people that you just sort of want to keep happy. You know, you really want the Dalmatians to be on your side, I suppose.

• 35:55Speaker 03

  There is a commercial factor here as well. Those are very rich cities, and they participate in the trade. So if you are in Constantinople, for example, and concerned about maintaining control with or over and contact with Venice, then you need all those stops on the eastern Adriatic coast, right? If you are looking from the Roman perspective, then Dalmatia is right next to Hungary, and Hungary now becomes, after year 1000, becomes a major power in East Central Europe. So in order to establish contact with Hungary, you need this area as well. So you're right, it's an intersection of power spheres that transforms this area into probably one of the most fascinating for understanding how people

• 36:37Speaker 03

  on the ground could navigate great power interests and maintain a sense of independence and a sense of identity. Probably the most interesting aspect of this is that while out of the conflict between the Pope and the Emperor, Holy Roman Emperor, known in the history of the Middle Ages as the investiture controversy, right, came the concern of that Pope who started it all, Gregory VII, right, to implement the Gregorian reform in the area they were talking about here, okay? Meaning first of all celibacy of the clergy? Not because of, or not only because of the moral aspect, but in order to prevent that priests

• 37:18Speaker 03

  or bishops will leave their offices in inheritance to their sons, right? The big elephant in the room for the Gregorian form is simony. That is to say, the idea of selling church offices, either lay church offices or or nastic positions, abbot, right? For money or some equivalent material of that, okay? That's why the Pope also want to endorse, among other things, a some moral code for the clergy, right? And pushing the secular interference in the church affairs away. That's a problem in Croatia, because as far as we know, as I said, there is no point at which we can put the finger, chronological speaking, and say, this area was converted to Christianity in the year such and such. There's no such thing.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  We actually are in the dark completely about how the process took place. However, before year 800, there are already churches built, right? There's quite clear indication, not just of Christianity accepted in principle, but of the elites, members of the elites, being involved in promoting it, because most of those churches obviously are not built by Benedictine monks who come into the area for sure, but they are built by the local elites there, all right? And those elites are not going to let those churches be run by anybody else but themselves. In other words, those are their proprietary churches. They think of them as an attribute of their local power there. Now, forwarding time into the second half of the 11th century, and you'll see the Pope's been quite upset about this.

• 38:46Speaker 03

  You cannot have a church in which the local ruler places the priest and then cleans the revenue of that church, right, for his benefit, right? You cannot have that. So, when the church reform is pushed into the area here, remember I told you earlier on that one of the three points discussed, the Synod's 925-928 in split, was the use of Slavonic in the liturgy, okay? So, in the 11th century... We have a rebellion, quote unquote, of two bishops in the northern part of Croatia and the Kvarner Arkipalago, the islands of Osor and Krk. Both those bishops decided, we're not going to go with the Gregorian reform.

• 39:29Speaker 03

  We're going to have specifically Slavonic liturgy in the church. And the Pope is really upset about this. He's so concerned about this that he's actually write to Sven Estridsson, King of Denmark, asking him, maybe he would have a fleet to go all around Europe and take care of those heretics.

• 39:51Eleanor Janega?

  Wow.

• 39:52Speaker 03

  We have the letter, in other words, quite clearly indicating that, I can, this is probably the Pope was already toying with an idea of crusade.

• 40:00Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, see, and this is an incredibly important point, I think, because we do certainly see Croatia become victimized by varying crusaders over time. You know, certainly, I think by the 13th century, we are seeing direct attacks on Zadar, for example.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  One of the participants in the first crusade that ended up conquering Jerusalem, Raymond of Toulouse, actually traveled, I don't know if you know, but different commanders of the crusade, the first crusade was not a royal crusade, it was actually a grassroots phenomenon, like, so each one of them actually traveled by different routes, to all of them meeting Constantinople and, you know, discuss with Alexius what to do. One of them actually traveled through Croatia, properly speaking, and Raymond of Aguilar, who is the chronicler of that group, tells us how difficult the trip was. And they considered this country to be completely, so this is, well, late 11th century, when not only we have churches, but we have intervention of the popes in the area, syno, whatnot. Yet the crusaders perceived this area as being completely pagan and, you know, you

• 41:07Speaker 03

  know, killing people randomly, so on and so forth, yeah.

• 41:09Eleanor Janega?

  I mean, this is crusaders all over, isn't it? They get to places, they don't understand these people are Christian, they kill them, you know.

• 41:15Speaker 03

  Well, before, they saw a city that was Christian and sected.

• 41:20Eleanor Janega?

  Well, yeah, quite so. And I mean, this is the thing, right, is that in 124, we see them sacking Constantinople, but we also see them sacking Zara around this time as well, right?

• 41:32Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely right, absolutely right. So that was less a matter of pagans. It was a matter of the Crusaders being in a binder, that they actually had signed up a contract with the Venetians, that they were paid them for a certain amount of ships. Unfortunately, the Venetians provided all the ships, they got the contract of the latter. But there were fewer Crusaders than they had anticipated, therefore, they could not pay. And the old Doge of Venice, Ricordandolo, offered them as a solution. Hey, how about in to free you from some of that debt, you do a job for us?

• 42:12Speaker 03

  Zara, that time, I mentioned Croatia ending as a kingdom and Hungary taking over. First with King Latislas I, and then King Coloman, who was actually crowned as king of Croatia, Slovenia, Dalmatia, Hungary, Croatia, Dalmatia, Slovenia, in 1102 in Biograd. Because of that, there's quite clearly a Hungarian influence by now. What was not possible in early Middle Ages, the influence from Panonia crossing the mountains into Dalmatia, now it's possible because they're part of the same kingdom. There's a bishopric founded in Zagreb, suffragan of the Archbishop of Estorbon, at the center of the country. Dalmatian realm remains independent, however. Nonetheless, the Hungarians get involved in the election of the Archbishop of Split.

• 42:57Speaker 03

  They want Hungarians in that office, not people from elsewhere. So there's quite an encroachment of Hungarian power in the area there. Come early 13th century, the two sons of Bella III, the Hungarian king who took the Crusading vows, could not fulfill them because he died in the meantime. One of them is ruling in Hungary, Emeric, and the other one, future King Andrew II, has this region, Croatia and Dalmatia, as a sub-kingdom. He declares himself a duke there. And runs the thing as if it's an independent kingdom. And as a consequence of that, when the Crusaders are dealing with Venice in terms of the of the contract there,

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Zara, whom the Venetians wanted the Crusades to take, was in fact in Hungarian hands. Now, let me translate this. That means it was actually in the hands of a power that not only was Christian, but on the Bella the Third, signed for the Crusade. Can you wrap your mind around this? So, could you please take Zara, which is a Christian crusading city, you Crusaders, could you conquer a crusading city?

• 44:06Eleanor Janega?

  That's the Venetians, though. You know, the Venetians will do anything, provided that it-

• 44:11Speaker 03

  And as you know, as you know, the the inhabitants of the city basically, you know, lower crosses on the walls and say, hey, what are you doing? What are you doing?

• 44:20Eleanor Janega?

  I mean, this is the the complexities that we see in these particular Crusades. They're just, it's just nonsense, this entire thing.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Well, it may, it may have been nonsense from the beauty of the hindsight, but in at the time, it made a lot of sense because actually the Crusade could continue based on that. As you probably know, Inosan the Third blasted the Crusaders, excommunicating them, then removed the excommunication, but did not remove the excommunication, remove the excommunication for the Crusaders, but not for the Venetians. So, the Crusaders arrived next to Constantinople, being transported on the ships of excommunicated people.

• 44:56Eleanor Janega?

  Well, you know, and they they stole the lion that's in St. Mark's Square, didn't they?

• 45:02Speaker 03

  They stole more, more than that. Let me put it this way. There's a, there's an account of actually how much they stole from that city. But Zara itself, it's a, for historians, is actually an event that highlights the wrong path that the Fourth Crusade took, or would take eventually. But actually, on on a local basis, did not have an, much of an impact. The city had changed hands many times, and it will do so into the 14th century as well.

• 45:32Speaker 03

  Venice is is very interested in controlling the entire Adriatic coast. And by 1320, so early 14th century, it does so. It's only during the war with the second angriven king of Hungary, Louis the First, that long war in which was won by Hungary, in that that Venice relinquished some some of the cities there. And so it's a brief- Intermezzo, should I say. Immediately after the, you know, as you probably know, at the end of Louis, uh, death and the end of Louis the First's reign, thirteen seventy, had two daughters, but no male heir. So we have, we have a, a struggle for power inside Hungary, of which, of course, Venice took, took advantage to reinstore

• 46:16Speaker 03

  the domination on Dalmatian coast. Really, the only threat to that Venetian, almost constant Venetian claim to the Dalmatian coast comes from the Ottoman Empire. And it did long wars that Venice actually waged against the Turks. But well into early modern period, the cities, each one of them, remained under Venetian influence.

• 46:39Eleanor Janega?

  Yeah, because this is a really interesting point in terms of what ends up happening with Dalmatia, et cetera. Because really thirteenth century, this is an area that is quite closely under Hungarian control. I mean, to the point where when the Mongols attack Hungary, Belle the Fourth flees to Dalmatia.

• 46:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, correct, yeah.

• 47:00Eleanor Janega?

  And, and so, you know, that's, that's how Hungarian we're talking about. And by the time you get to fourteenth century, by all intents and purposes, I would say that it's, it's really much more Venetian in character at the time.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  The interior of the country, Croatia proper, actually is fragmented. In other words, a crisis of power, there are two moments of crisis in Hungary, of which local factors in Croatia took advantage. One is at the end of the Arpedian dynasty, shortly before and after thirteen hundreds, right before the first Angevin king, Charles the First Robert, was proclaimed, was recognized against, a long war with the magnates in, in Hungary. Local factors in Croatia took, took advantage of that, okay? And the second one is the death of Louis the First, thirteen, so towards the end of the, another hundred years later, okay? Towards less than a hundred years, thirteen seventy, when again, the local factors took advantage of the absence of a

• 47:57Speaker 03

  strong central power to impose its, its rule over this sub kingdom of Croatia. That resulted in the number of noble families exercising control almost autonomously, if not independently, in certain areas. For example, the Babonjeh family in Slavonia, close to the Hungarian border, the Frankopan.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  In the northern Croatia, Liburnia and the Kvarner area there, the Kasic, probably the most prominent of all families, were, for all practical purposes, the rulers of the Omish, which had even a number of castles. The most important one was Mirabella, right at the mouth of Naredva. And became almost like, not just rulers of the area, they were pirates in the area. In other words, they were independent towards Venice as well, right? And the number of other families that established rule either next to the coast, like the Kasic, or in interior, near Brivira, right? So what we see in the late Middle Ages,

• 49:01Speaker 03

  specifically last quarter of the 14th century and the 15th century, as the Ottomans are moving in, the area here is not necessarily controlled or not as much controlled by the Hungarians anymore, as it's controlled by the local noblemen. Those are the circumstances in which a sense of Croatian separateness, identity, is formed on the basis of this independent attitude of the Croatian nobleman. It's responsible for the laws you mentioned earlier, for the sense, which is, as far as we can tell a myth by now, that at the time of the incorporation of Croatia into the Hungarian kingdom, it had been given, had been a number of oaths being taken, had been given a number of privileges from the very beginning. The privileges existed, no doubt,

• 49:46Speaker 03

  but they are attested only much, much later time. It seems to be a projection back in time to justify the developments in the late Middle Ages.

• 50:08Speaker 06

  If you love a good story, why aren't you listening to Dan Snow's History Hit Podcast? It's a show where we tell you every amazing, crazy and important thing that's ever happened in human history. From the perilous voyages of the first Polynesians, the discoveries of Captain Cook, the deadly Viking raids on Britain and Ireland, the rise and fall of the great English kings and queens. We'll tell you how Waterloo was won, the Alamo was lost, and all the history in between. So make sure you check it out, Dan Snow's History Hit, for the best true stories ever told, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 50:59Eleanor Janega?

  Can we talk a little bit, just to sort of wrap up, about the 15th century and this conflict between the Sicilian Angevins and one of my most hated Holy Roman Emperors, Sisius Mundus.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  Sisius Mundus.

• 51:12Eleanor Janega?

  Charles's worst son, which is saying something. But because there is also, you know, I would argue that, you know, part of this, there is a kind of independent Croatian-ness. You know, we do sort of see the Croatians going back and forth, because there's a sort of the so-called Angevins in Sicily who are saying, well, we're making a play for it. And initially, the Dalmatians side with the Angevins and then say, oh, never mind, maybe Sisius Mundus. But there's a lot of going back and forth, right?

• 51:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, there were so, especially the Lords of Brivir, that actually accompanied Charles I, the first Angevin to rule over Hungary, to the central lands of Hungary. Indeed, I would say that not all Croatians, but some of the Croatian noble families were the earliest allies that Charles I had in Hungary for his rule. Okay? Now, forward in time, as you said, at the time of Sisius Mundus of Luxembourg, I would say that probably the sturdiest supporters that he had in the area were the lords in Slavonia, because it was close to the lands that he himself had. There's something here that needs to be factored in. Again, after the death of Louis I, let's put it this way, okay?

• 52:24Speaker 03

  After the death of Louis I, who had a very strong hand in this, and as I mentioned to you, had defeated Venice in the area, so there's a very strong, firm rule, Hungarian rule, in the area here. And because he became, he became king of Poland as well, as you know, that transformed this polity into a very large personal union, but still in a very large polity, right? By that, I mean, you know, I'm not saying that... Developments in Dunsky in France, those in Split. But but that's basically the axis of power that we are talking about here. After that, right, especially under Sajdismun of Luxembourg, a particular area,

• 53:07Speaker 03

  as you know, Sajdismun was a Holy Roman Emperor as well. A particular area that concerns him more than anything else is that of the Czech lands. We talk about that already, right? In this particular case, because of the Hussite wars. Against the Hussids, he proclaims a number of crusades. So his attention is drawn into that. That's a reason for which Croatia and Croatian noblemen actually developed a very strong sense of identity. That's also the reason for which a number of citizens on the Dalmatian coast fall back onto the Venetian control. So I'm not sure the Angevins did anything here. I would say that probably by by virtue of pushing their claims, real claims in the case of Charles, claims that were never fulfilled, properly speaking,

• 53:52Speaker 03

  with with later rulers of the Angevins in Hungary. They provided a point of entry for this particularism of the Croatian nobility, which really has no parallel in any other part of Hungary. There has been some very interesting studies done by comparing, let's say, developments in Croatia, fourteen hundreds to fourteen fifties, let's put it this way, right? To developments in Transylvania, the eastern part of the Hungarian Kingdom, okay? Needless to say, this is the era of John Huniady and, you know, magnates in Transylvania supporting him or not supporting him or whatever. But there is nothing anywhere in Hungary that will actually match the very strong sense of local identity

• 54:35Speaker 03

  and the very powerful clans that we have in Croatia, properly speaking. The Kasic and the Barbonici have probably been the most prominent among them.

• 54:45Eleanor Janega?

  Well, I don't think that's surprising when we consider all of this. I mean, by the time we've got to the fifteenth century, we have hundreds and hundreds of years' worth of history where Things are just different in Croatia. It's just not the same story that we hear in other parts of Europe. I mean, even in other parts of Slavonic-speaking Europe, even in other parts of Central Europe just above it. It's a really different political system that relies on really different sets of alliances. I just do think it's truly unique in that.

• 55:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it's because of its position at the intersection. We talked about this earlier on for much earlier times. It's intersection of great powers. Certainly not to the same extent, both in terms of numbers and in terms of historical phenomenon. But the area of the Romanian principalities, Valencia and Moldova, is also the intersection of great powers. We're talking about the phenomenon of the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern period, well into the 18th century. And in a way, it's very interesting how the two work the same way. A lot of people have asked, "Why did the Ottomans stop the push in Bosnia?" Of course, they defeated the Croatian army of the Bava and, you know, killed almost the entire aristocracy.

• 56:06Speaker 03

  That was a myth of the battle as being significant for the later Croatian nationalism. But there was no real attempt by the Ottomans to conquer this area, at least for a decade, maybe three, on both sides of the year 1500s. You could make the case they could have done so. After all, they brought Hungary down to its knees, conquered the country, destroyed the kingdom and transformed two-thirds of the country into a pasalik. Why didn't they do it for Croatia? The easiest way to respond to this is just because before they could figure out what to do, the Habsburgs got into, right? But I think-

• 56:44Eleanor Janega?

  It's always the Habsburgs.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  I think there's a peril here. That's why I mentioned Moldavia and Valencia. The cost of keeping Croatia under control, I'm talking about the Ottomans. Would have been enormous. In other words, even from Istanbul, from Constantinople, right? People realize that that corner there at the intersection of interests of great powers would be very difficult and costly because of that to defend. So it's better to actually keep it like a gray zone, right? You raid it, you, you know, every now and then you actually go maybe have an occupation longer, a year or two or something like that. But you're never going to implement a paselle with governments, it's going to cost a fortune. And, you know, the advantages are not obvious, on the contrary.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  Dalmatia, properly speaking, was a bastion in a tourist sense of the word, defended by the mountains on one side and by that formidable sea power of Venice on the other. So, you know, in Croatia, properly speaking, you're not going to fight only one power, let's say the Habsburgs. From, as you know, from 1500 onwards, especially after the demise of Hungary, the two powers, the Habsburgs and the Ottomans, are at each other's throat well into the 18th century, where you, you know, subway and, you know, whatnot. But in the area we're talking about here, the Ottomans have a second enemy, Venice. And this is a different kind of warfare. You're not waging on land, you need a fleet, which is another enormous cost.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  The Ottoman Empire around 1500 is definitely under Suleiman the Magnificent, has extraordinary power. So the question I ask you, why didn't they push it? It's quite an interesting one from a historical point of view. And the explanation, as I said, I think, is in the geopolitical configuration in the area, from the early Middle Ages well into the early modern period.

• 58:33Eleanor Janega?

  Oh, Flora, I think we have to stop here, which is so difficult to do. But also, I think that we've done a fairly all right job of covering, you know, almost a thousand years of history in an hour. And it's some of the more interesting history, I think, that we can find in the Middle Ages. Is there anything else that we've missed that you'd really like to cover before we go?

• 58:55Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't think so. I want to say that, you know, we talk a lot about politics, but there is a very interesting cultural history here.

• 59:05Speaker 03

  Maybe your audience would like to know that one of these scripts, manuscript scripts, right, developed in the monastery of Monte Cassino in Italy, is best represented by manuscripts from Croatia. I'm talking about Benevento script in existence in the 11th and 12th century, with some absolutely gorgeous illuminations, some of the most wonderful manuscripts ever written in the Latin, in the western part of the church in the High Middle Ages. So it's not just the matter, and needless to say, there's a fascinating chapter of the history of architecture, specifically for the Romanesque art here, with such phenomenal churches as the one of Saint Hristo Gona Sven Zadar,

• 59:49Speaker 03

  we're talking about the city, and the Cathedral in Sparta.

• 59:52Eleanor Janega?

  I just want to make a plug for the concept of Zadar, which is a little unsung. I think that people should, if you're interested in medieval history, Zadar is really one to go check out that people just don't for some reason.

• 1:00:07Eleanor Janega?

  Well, Florian, thank you so much. It's been such an incredible delight to speak to you today.

• 1:00:12Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:00:18Eleanor Janega?

  Thanks to Professor Curda and to you for listening to Gone Medieval from History Hit. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including my recent documentary on the Trials of Joan of Arc, and ad-free podcasts by signing up at historyhit.com/subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions, or wherever you get your podcasts, and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time.

• 1:01:07Speaker 04

  Hey, it's Adam Grant from TED's Rethinking Podcast. As businesses scale, success depends on how well knowledge is captured, shared, and kept up to date. Camtasia Pro turns teams' expertise into engaging training, onboarding, and documentation. No professional editing experience required. With the industry's best screen recording, video editing, and AI-powered workflows, you can train faster and boost operational efficiency. Get over $100 off your first year at camtasia pro.com and start building a smarter way to educate customers, onboard employees, and ensure valuable expertise is shared across teams.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

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