The Bear

The Bear is back for a new season. The FX on Hulu series sees Carmy and Sydney (Jeremy Allen White and Ayo Edebiri) trying to get the restaurant they opened together on its feet before they run out of money. Richie (Ebon Moss-Bachrach) is thrown by his ex-wife's approaching wedding and what it's going to mean for him. Plus there's scallop drama, secret negotiations, and guest stars both new and old. To access bonus episodes and sponsor-free listening for Pop Culture Happy Hour, subscribe to Pop Culture Happy Hour+ at plus.npr.org/happy. https://plus.npr.org/happy See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from Capella University. That spark you feel? That's your drive for more. Capella University's FlexPath learning format lets you earn your degree at your pace without putting life on pause. Learn more at capella.edu.

• 0:19Linda Holmes?

  The Bear is back. Karmie and Sydney are trying to get the restaurant they opened together on its feet before they run out of money. Richie is thrown by his ex-wife's approaching wedding and what it's going to mean for him. Scallop drama, secret negotiations, and guest stars both returning and newly introduced are all on hand for the fourth season. I'm Linda Holmes, and today we're talking about the new season of The Bear on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

• 0:50Speaker 02

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• 2:04Linda Holmes?

  Joining me today is NPR TV critic Eric Deggans. Hello, Eric.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  Yes, chef. Are you ready, chef?

• 2:10Linda Holmes?

  I am ready, chef. Heard. OK. So when we last saw Karmie, played by Emmy winner Jeremy Allen White, he was swearing at a review of the restaurant The Bear. In the fourth season, we learn that the review was not so positive.

• 2:25Speaker 04

  The trib ate here three times at three different restaurants?

• 2:29Speaker 05

  The food sounded good.

• 2:30Speaker 04

  Sometimes.

• 2:32Speaker 05

  They didn't like the vibe.

• 2:34Speaker 04

  They didn't like the chaos. And yeah, frankly, I don't know if I do either.

• 2:39Linda Holmes?

  This has put pressure on everyone, especially after Uncle Jimmy lets them know that the money he's been providing is going to run out in a couple of months. They need to turn things around in a hurry. Sid needs to figure out what to do about the fact that Chef Adam Shapiro offered her a job at a new place he's opening. And given the chaos that is The Bear, she's tempted to take it. She's played by Iowa Debré. Karmie is still pining for Claire, played by Molly Gordon, who he accidentally broke up with at the end of the second season.

• 3:09Speaker 03

  Whoops.

• 3:11Linda Holmes?

  As for Richie, that's Evan Moss-Bacrack's character. He's sweating the fact that his ex-wife is about to get remarried to a man so nice, Richie can't even dislike him, which is awkward. The new season is streaming now on Hulu. Eric, before we get started, catch me up on sort of your relate. Where were you with The Bear when we left off in the third season?

• 3:33Speaker 03

  I liked it more, I think, than a lot of critics.

• 3:35Linda Holmes?

  I did, too. I did, too.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  You know, no matter how middling you may think the actual season is, there are always at least one or two episodes that just kind of shake you up and prove what this show could be if it could fire on all cylinders in every episode. But I do think that this season was more consistent and more entertaining overall.

• 3:57Linda Holmes?

  I'm with you. I liked the third season more than a lot of people did. And I do think that this season goes back to the core relationships between Karmie, Sidney, and Richie, and to some degree Natalie. And I think it is. Plugging back into those relationships in a way that I ultimately really liked. And we are, by the way, going to talk about the whole season. So just be aware that we're talking about the whole season. It's been out for a little bit as you hear this. But you know, in that final episode, in that finale, you really get mostly a single scene with Carmy and Sid and Richie. And it really reminded me how good those performances are and how deeply developed those characters are and their relationships are.

• 4:42Linda Holmes?

  And my feeling about this show sometimes is that I have to stop myself from taking for granted the things I already know are great about it. Now that I've seen them a bunch of times, I think if you went back and watched that scene with those performances as a fresh show and you hadn't seen intensity of the Jeremy Allen White performance, or the comedy and deep feeling of the Evan Moss Backrack performance, or the way that I O. Debré is so believably ambivalent about her relationships with these guys.

• 5:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 5:15Linda Holmes?

  I think if you came in fresh to those, they'd be so impressive. But now that you know those things, they get maybe a little bit taken for granted. I want to talk a little bit about that wedding episode where Richie's ex-wife, Tiff, played by Gillian Jacobs, who I think is really good in this, is marrying Frank, played by Josh Hartnett, who I have to say, if you've seen Josh Hartnett in this, in Trap, the M. Night Shyamalan movie, and in the bonkers action movie Fight or Flight, you have seen that Josh Hartnett is having the time of his life right now, which I love. Talk to me a little bit about that wedding episode, because it's a little bit of a mirror to Fish's, the episode that had the whole extended family in season two, but it was

• 5:57Linda Holmes?

  all kind of chaotic and terrible and everybody was miserable and yelling at each other. And this is a more joyful family gathering.

• 6:04Speaker 03

  And one thing I do want to say about the overall season, before we get into that, is that it also feels a little bit like a reaction to how people reacted to the previous season. There's less sort of obvious comedy. You know, maybe they were reacting to people refusing to believe it was a comedy and they had more. More slapsticky, kind of obvious comedy.

• 6:26Linda Holmes?

  With the facts.

• 6:27Speaker 03

  With John Cena, and that felt ham handed and obvious and like a reaction. And so this season, we don't have that. But to me, there are more funny moments.

• 6:37Linda Holmes?

  I agree.

• 6:38Speaker 03

  And it's much easier to see why they might make the case that it's a comedy. I still don't think it's a comedy.

• 6:44Linda Holmes?

  No, I don't either. It makes more sense this season than last, I think.

• 6:47Speaker 03

  Exactly. And also, you know, you mentioned there's much more conventional storytelling going on here. Cause I think they, you know, they got the note from people that, you know, we understand why you tried that.

• 6:57Linda Holmes?

  You're maybe disappearing up your own nose a little bit.

• 7:00Speaker 03

  It didn't quite work. And let's just get back to, you know, what we really like about these, uh, characters. The wedding episode, I think, is an example of what we really like about these characters. It's their family in one place, bouncing off each other. And when they get together, it's like shaking up nitroglycerin. We kind of knew that. But to see it in a family gathering like this, I think was even better than the dinner episode. Because that, that dinner episode from previous seasons was fueled by the mental illness of Carmy's mother. Here, we get to see Carmy's mother is, is struggling and has kind of gotten her arms around her dysfunction.

• 7:42Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, she's trying. But you also see, I think also you see more of a mix of the dysfunction and the function.

• 7:51Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely.

• 7:52Linda Holmes?

  In the family, that you also realize how loving these people are towards each other in many, many ways. And how this family, as weird as it is, they have also kind of embraced all these other people who are not blood relatives, but who have gravitated toward them because of this energy that they have and the devotion that they have to each other. There is a scene between Gillian Jacobs and Oliver Platt where one thing you kind of wonder at this wedding is like, why is Richie's whole family at his ex-wife's wedding? And they try to kind of bring some insight to that. Why are they all there? And why is she so close to them?

• 8:33Linda Holmes?

  And there's a scene between her and Uncle Jimmy that I just thought was small and relatively short, but really, really lovely.

• 8:42Speaker 06

  My family's such a mess, you know, and they're all over the place. And I'm, look, they're not even here. I don't have anybody here in the.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  Berzanos are like a family to me.

• 8:52Linda Holmes?

  You know, you mentioned Carmy's mother, played by Jamie Lee Curtis. There's an episode between, that's mostly Carmy and DeeDee, his mom. And I thought it was beautiful and really moving. So it's like, yeah, the show's uneven. There are things that don't work. I have never been convinced by the relationship with Claire. I don't think that's ever been persuasively interesting to me. I think that's, that character's always been underwritten. I don't particularly like how they ended it. I don't particularly like the note they chose to end on. But those episodes, like the wedding episode, the episode with Carmy and his mom, the episode where Sydney gets her hair done by her cousin, played by Danielle Deadwiler, of all people.

• 9:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's another one of those standout episodes where they focus on a character who's not Carmy. In fact, what's interesting to me about this season is that Carmy is the least interesting character in it. And I don't really notice it. I think it helps the show to not hang so much of its narrative juice on his arc.

• 9:56Linda Holmes?

  Right.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  But the thing I wanted to say about the wedding and the family, and ultimately, this wedding episode brings home the idea that the bear is a family. All these characters are a family.

• 10:10Speaker 07

  Well, what I was saying, like, sometimes your work family is closer to you than your family, family.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  Oh, well, I mean, sometimes I feel like your work family is like part of your family, family, though. You know, like, it's one big, I don't know, family, family.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  And what the characters are trying to do in different ways is master their dysfunction enough so that they can live. These characters talk about their feelings in a way that does feel a little unrealistic. These characters are trying, and they understand that communicating with each other is important. But the level to which they achieve that in this, in this season. It does feel a little unrealistic and it does feel a little wish fulfillment. But, but that's what we've always wanted for these characters. We have wanted them to speak to each other and understand each other. You know, however much you like or don't like the ending, and I'm really intrigued by it.

• 11:11Speaker 03

  These characters understand each other at the end of it.

• 11:15Linda Holmes?

  I think that's true, and I, I see your point about the fact that they open up a lot about how they're feeling. But what I like about the way that they do that is first of all, they tend to do it, particularly with characters who you can kind of see how they got themselves there. When DeeDee is finally sort of talking and apologizing to Carmy for her kind of treatment of him and his siblings. She's got it all written down on note paper and you can see that she's put a lot of time into trying to process those feelings. She's gotten sober, so you know she's done work.

• 11:50Speaker 07

  I didn't know how to help him, Carmen. I didn't know what to do. I probably made it worse. I know I did. I know I made it worse. And, and I, I know that by saying that I know these things doesn't make it better. It's just, Carmen, my heart's broken. My heart is just broken.

• 12:09Linda Holmes?

  Jeremy Allen White in that, in that long scene doesn't say a whole lot, but the performance is to me extraordinary. You can see how he is tolerating this conversation with his mother, even though everything in him wants to run away from it. It's very important for both of them.

• 12:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:30Linda Holmes?

  To have this conversation and his mother really needs it and he really needs it. But his instinct is bolt, run, I hate this. I want to tear my hair out. But he sits and kind of, he tolerates and also loves and appreciates this conversation with her. And I thought that that episode, like he eventually makes her lunch.

• 12:52Speaker 07

  Yeah, do you want, you know what? I'll make you something.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 12:56Speaker 07

  You just sit there, I'll make something nice. What?

• 13:00Linda Holmes?

  They could have gone a lot heavier with the experience of her eating the food that he made and everything. They play that relatively light and I appreciated that.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  The whole point of that was that he made the food instead of her. That was part of her dysfunction. She would always spin out when she started making food for the family.

• 13:19Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  And it was important for him to make the food. And once we saw that was happening, that was all we needed to see. What was interesting to me about that whole moment was that Karmie has talked a lot about breaking patterns. And so even though he wants to leave, he knows that for him to get better in his own life, he's got to break the pattern of running away from his mother when she does something that looks like it might lead to her spinning out. Everything in this season is about these characters breaking old patterns and learning to connect with each other because they know that's crucial to them surviving. So when Io's character sees this, this is what makes her choose the bear over

• 14:04Speaker 03

  the other restaurant. Finally, we get the ending in which Karmie decides to step back from the restaurant and he's facing the ultimate question, which is what if the thing that you are best at is also the thing that is killing you?

• 14:19Linda Holmes?

  Yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  And we've seen other shows ask that question, but I don't think we ever saw the bear consider the possibility that Karmie would accept that and act on it to save himself and his family, which I just think is kind of amazing.

• 14:34Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, I think that's right. I also think, you know, I mentioned the episode with Sydney and her cousin, how happy I was to see Danielle Dedwiler show up in that role because she's wonderful.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 07

  You know they beefs be different.

• 14:48Speaker 04

  Stop, stop. I just am an employee. Okay? Put some.

• 14:53Speaker 07

  Cheese on it.

• 14:54Speaker 04

  I can't speak to the beef. I won't speak to the beef.

• 14:56Speaker 07

  Dip it, keep it wet.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Listen, I can't handle these people will come up here and they'll be rioting. But there is that.

• 15:02Linda Holmes?

  And I think what you see in that is partly that Sydney is so fortunate to have people that she genuinely is very at ease with. She's very at ease with the cousin, cousin's daughter. She feels embraced by them. There have always been tensions in her relationship with her dad, but it's not like Carmy and his mom. And so you really see that Sydney is fortunate enough to come from, I think, an emotional place where even though there's been a lot of hardship, the relationships that she's built are basically healthy, even if there's work that you always have to do with them. I think you get an interesting look at Sydney. You get a bunch of interesting looks at Carmy.

• 15:40Linda Holmes?

  I also really loved the arc of Richie working through the feelings about Frank, about the Josh Hartnett character. Because that felt very realistic to me, like that he feels very threatened by this guy who's going to be his, his daughter's stepfather. You know, Frank is insecure too, and there's a, that felt very generous to me that neither one of those guys had to be bad. She and I are supposed to do this cute dance like a father, daughter, da- stepfather, daughter.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, you are, you are acting goofy. Knew it. You're acting goofy. Your face, it's like, uh. Yo, you gotta put your game face on, G. All right? You can't be showing fear like this. Okay.

• 16:23Linda Holmes?

  I think Richie, in some ways, is the character to me who's changed the most in the most interesting ways over the course of the, of the show. I think when he went off and worked at Olivia Coleman's restaurant and were, and learned so much in what seemed like such a short period of time. I think people felt like, well, that's a little abrupt, whatever. I think they've paid that off over the time since it happened. You've really come to see that. Richie really loves the service that he does, even when it's hard and even when he's frustrated. He really loves doing it in a way that Carmy doesn't feel like he does love the restaurant work.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  What's so interesting to me about those two characters is that when the bear started, you had this sense that Carmy was the one who was saved by fine dining and devoting himself to perfecting his craft and having to deal with his cousin who comes out of nowhere and will not be disciplined is his biggest bang. And then we get to the end of the fourth season and those roles have switched. We have one character where doing what they're best at is saving them. And we have another character where doing what they're best at is killing them. And we finally realized that and they both fess up about why they were at each other's throats when they first got together in the very first season.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  Very rarely in real life do we get to have a conversation with somebody that we have that kind of familial connection to and deep seated conflict with to resolve it. I mean, I'm enjoying it. I loved it, but it also, there was also a part of me sort of going, okay, all right.

• 18:02Linda Holmes?

  Yeah, I get, I get that. As I said, I think it was easier for me because it seemed, so much of it seemed to be the result of work and thought as opposed to just suddenly became incredibly articulate at talking about my feelings.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  Right.

• 18:15Linda Holmes?

  One thing that I will say is that, you know, chefs and mental health, that's a real thing. And I have a friend named Kat Kinsman who used to have a podcast about this and has done a lot of work around this in the world of sort of chefs and food. And that's a real thing. And I do hope the show has one more season. At the time that we are taping, we do not know if that's going to happen or not. I do hope before it ends, they are able to take a swing at framing this as something that maybe is an issue where Carmy could use some mental health support in addition to Al-Anon, which we know has been really, really helpful to him.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:54Linda Holmes?

  He's had like grief support and things like that, but I think that. Mental health support would be something that at least somebody in his life, whether it was Natalie or Sydney or somebody would say something.

• 19:07Speaker 03

  Or even his, even his mom.

• 19:08Linda Holmes?

  Even his mom would say something about, like, maybe you're depressed, among other things, and it would be good to address that before you make a final decision about quitting your career. But I know that maybe they don't. We're like, maybe this is another realistic thing that maybe they don't. Maybe those conversations don't happen in those kinds of spaces.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  And you know, what's interesting to me too, is that I think one reason why the TV industry responds to the bear so much is that I, part of the progression of these characters is maybe letting go of the idea that excellence only comes from torturing yourself.

• 19:47Linda Holmes?

  Right.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  Excellence only comes when you feel like crap and you've pushed yourself to the maximum.

• 19:53Linda Holmes?

  And, and you've been horrible to other people as well.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, if you're pushing yourself to the maximum. I mean, I think everybody can kind of relate a little bit to resisting the idea that excellence involves, you know, working so hard that you only live your job and you don't enjoy it at all.

• 20:09Linda Holmes?

  I do want to mention one last thing that I enjoyed, which is I think that you and I both feel that the use of John Cena last year was sort of a low point for the kind of, it's not that I don't like John Cena, because I do. That was the first time, I mean, I really liked the use of all the guest stars and fishes, and I've talked about why that was. But I felt like this was the one where it was like, all right, now you're just being silly, right? And the same went for the kind of, too many real chefs showing up as themselves last season as well. They got away from that, but there's this whole buildup of this character they've talked about before named Francie Fack, who everybody knows that Natalie and Francie hate each other. Nobody knows exactly why Natalie and Francie hate each other.

• 20:54Linda Holmes?

  And as this wedding is approaching, they're talking about Francie coming to the wedding. And you're thinking, who's this gonna be? It's gonna be somebody, right? And as you're coming up to it, it's like, who is this? Who is this? And then it's Brie Larson, and I think she's terrific in this and really funny. She has great comedic chemistry with Abby Elliott.

• 21:13Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I know what that looks about. I don't like it. You can apologize whenever. You know that?

• 21:17Linda Holmes?

  No.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  No.

• 21:18Linda Holmes?

  No what?

• 21:19Speaker 03

  No.

• 21:19Linda Holmes?

  You are so. Well, well, yeah, well, no, oh, well, well, I'm frantic back, well.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Why? And all the Brie Larson haters out there, I'm telling you, you gotta stop. I didn't believe it when it started. I thought she was, I thought she's been great in the MCU. I think she's been great in Lessons in Chemistry and other shows. And she knocks it out of the park here. But not just her, you know, cameo. Bob Odenkirk returns as an uncle, quote unquote, and has a really great conversation with Carmi. He told me you made something with ants. Told me you worked at the best restaurant in the world, twice.

• 21:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, I believe you.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  He told me he was proud of you.

• 22:01Linda Holmes?

  Great scene, great scene. I guess this is where I come down on this season. Like, I can absolutely find things in here that I, that I don't think work nearly as well. I had issues with the ending. I have issues with Claire. I think having Carmi sort of say he's gonna step away from the restaurant, but I don't know whether that's really what they're doing. And it seems like they're still in a point where Sydney's very worried about that. I don't know that it felt resolved to me. But like, when I look at these 10 episodes, there is so much in these 10 episodes that I think is so, so good.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 22:36Linda Holmes?

  It makes me really glad that they have, that they have done this really complex work and, and made this piece, which like, if nothing else, just, there's so much good acting.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:49Linda Holmes?

  We want to know what you think about The Bear. Find us at facebook.com slash PCHH. That brings us to the end of our show. Eric Deggans, thank you so much for being here. It's always wonderful to see you.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  Yes, chef. Thank you, chef.

• 23:00Linda Holmes?

  Heard. And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio. And you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org slash happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger and Mike Katsev and edited by our showrunner, Jessica Reedy. And Hello Come In provides our theme music. Thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Linda Holmes and we'll see you all next time.

• 23:34Speaker 02

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