Why Would I Do That to Jennifer Lopez? | The Mistakes Series

Years ago a music producer named Irv Gotti–a hitmaker for Jay-Z, Ja Rule, and Ashanti–was tapped by Sony Music to make a record with Jennifer Lopez. They wanted a big hit. And Irv delivered. But then he made the biggest mistake of his career. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. When you're a business owner interested in expanding to new markets, there's a lot to consider and countless questions to answer before making the call. The most important one being, are you ready? That's where ChatGPT comes in. Give it a goal, add your files, and ask chat to help you map out different scenarios for the future of your business. So when growth is on the table, you've got an expansion plan ready to implement. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

• 0:28Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on, and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over the limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet,

• 1:09Malcolm Gladwell?

  if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time without any extra effort. When you better understand your spending habits, it's easier to make your money work harder for you. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.74% to 27.99% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or card.apple.com. Savings is available to Apple Card owners, subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, Member FDIC.

• 1:54Malcolm Gladwell?

  Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 2:03Malcolm Gladwell?

  Pushkin.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  This guy calls me like seven in the morning. I'm like, Tommy, what's up?

• 2:14Malcolm Gladwell?

  In 2001, the head of Sony Music, Tommy Mottola, called the rap producer Irv Gotti. At the time, Gotti worked with Jay-Z, Ja Rule, Ashanti, DMX. In the hip-hop world of the early aughts, he was at the top of his game.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  He's like, yo, I need you to make a record. And I said, what? He said, make a record with J-Lo and put Ja on it and make it a duet. And I say, yo,

• 2:40Speaker 02

  I need total creative autonomy. I'm doing whatever the fuck I want. Tommy was like, you could do whatever the fuck you want, as long as it's a duet with Ja Rule and J-Lo.

• 2:51Malcolm Gladwell?

  Mottola wanted Gotti to do a remix of "I'm Real", a single off J-Lo's second album. The first time around, it had been a generic ballad. Mottola thought it could be reinvigorated. Gotti went to work and started to make a demo with Ja Rule and Ashanti.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  I said, yo, I got the record, "I'm Real". Him and his wife, Talia, come to the crack house, my studio and so on. And it's funny because the freight elevator used to always go out. So him and Talia walked up six flights of stairs. He gets upstairs, he said, this fucking record better be fucking good. So I play, I play "Real" for him, him and his wife go crazy. They're like, oh, my God, it was a one listen. They listened and they was like, it's the biggest record. So he puts me on a private jet. I fly to LA, record the record with J-Lo. Next thing you know, the record comes out, it's all over the radio. I'm talking about

• 3:49Speaker 02

  maybe a couple of days after we recorded it, it's all over the radio.

• 4:05Malcolm Gladwell?

  A few months later, Gotti made another remix from J Lo's album, Ain't It Funny? The same thing happened.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  You don't even understand, those records was colossal, not just in the States, on the planet Earth. I don't give a fuck if you went to Germany, Australia, Africa, that shit was in heavy rotation. Look, those was the two biggest records. And for me to do I'm Real and then said, fuck it, and did Ain't It Funny? It was like, at that point in my life, I was like on top of the world. It was a feeling of invincibility. It was a feeling of I could do whatever the fuck I want.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  To portray who I was at that moment, that's who I was. I'm from the hood, I'm making all of this money. I'm producing records for everybody. All of them are working and going number one. And money's raining from the sky. I could do no wrong.

• 5:02Malcolm Gladwell?

  It was at this point that Irv Gotti made a mistake.

• 5:08Malcolm Gladwell?

  My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood.

• 5:16Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is the third episode in our mini-series inspired by Michael Linton and Josh Steiner's book, From Mistakes to Meaning, where the authors sit down with a wide range of people and try to make sense of their biggest screw-ups. One of their interviews was with Irv Gotti, just before Gotti had a stroke and died at the age of 54. I listened to the interview and I found his story so moving that I asked Steiner and Linton if I could include it in this series. Because in his story, I think, is a really important lesson. Not about the person who makes the mistake, but about the people around the person who makes the mistake. The witnesses.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Man, I grew up, oh man, I grew up, let me, let me describe how I grew up. I'm the youngest of eight kids.

• 6:08Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is Gotti talking to Linton and Steiner about his childhood and growing up in Queens.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  We have no money.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  We live in a home, I, I sleep in the attic. You ever slept in the attic of a house? In the summertime, there's no refuge. It's a hundred and change. You, you wake up every, every day, you wake up in a puddle of sweat.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Like I, that was my life, that's, it was a lot of love. My family, the most loving family, but we had nothing. So when you talk about

• 6:46Speaker 02

  the shit you told me, I'm not, I don't give a fuck, yo. I'm getting money, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna work my ass off and get it. I don't give a fuck what comes from it.

• 6:59Malcolm Gladwell?

  He was blunt, reckless, ambitious, and hugely talented. His rise in the music world was swift. It was no accident that Batola called Gotti to work with Jennifer Lopez, then well on her way to becoming one of the biggest celebrities in America. And when the two of them met at Gotti's recording studio, Gotti from Queens, J Lo from the Bronx, they clicked.

• 7:23Malcolm Gladwell?

  Just so you know what to expect, we're giving you the unfiltered Gotti.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  So I had like thirty hood niggas in the studio and in walks J Lo. And she was straight Jenny from the block. She had on some sweatpants and a tank top. And if I tell you, she got in that studio and she had every one of my guys fall in love with her. She worked and talked to everybody and I was just like, yo, she's just so dope. You know what I'm saying? Cause she could have been on some, I'm a big star bougie shit, but she was the total opposite.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  The biggest sex symbol, biggest superstar, got on some sweatpants, her ass was looking fucking phenomenal. She worked, she literally worked the whole room. Like, when she left, every guy was like, "Yo, she dope. I think she liked me." I'm like, "Yo, dog, she's, she worked us, yo." She, she worked the fucking room. But I thought it was so dope of her. And me and her, specifically, yo, we hit it off. Benny Medina, her manager? Benny Medina was like, "Irv, you're gonna be like the Quincy Jones to her Michael Jackson."

• 8:47Speaker 02

  He was like, "We're not doing nothing musically unless you're involved."

• 8:54Malcolm Gladwell?

  A year later, Elle magazine decided to do a cover story on Jennifer Lopez. It was for their sex and body issue. June 2002, headlined "Big Letters: J Lo on Fashion, That Song, and Puffy." Puffy referred to Puffy Combs, the infamous rap impresario who she'd just broken up with. And "That Song" referred to "Ain't It Funny", because Gotti's reinterpretation of the song turned it into the story of someone coming out of a very problematic relationship. The writer asks her, "Is that song about Puffy?" She says, "No, it's not." Then the reporter calls Gotti. "J Lo says 'Ain't It Funny' isn't about Puffy. What do you say?"

• 9:39Malcolm Gladwell?

  And Gotti says, "Oh, it's absolutely about Puffy." And J Lo knows it. Here's the exact quote from the Elle magazine article, which, by the way, is nearly impossible to find now. "My producer had to get someone at the New York Public Library to unearth the issue from an offsite storage unit. I ain't gonna lie, we was thinking of effing with Puffy, 'cause that's what the world wants to hear."

• 10:06Malcolm Gladwell?

  And Gotti tells the reporter a story about running into Puffy before Ain't It Funny came out, and playing him the demo. He says, "You know the Four Seasons on Dohany in LA? I pull up and Puff's out there with his security, and I say, 'Puff, come listen to the new record I did with your old bitch.'" So boom, he gets in the car. So I'm blasting the record, and when it gets to the second verse, he jumps out of the car screaming, "Gotti, you bastard!" This is the second verse. Listen.

• 10:48Malcolm Gladwell?

  He calls J-Lo's ex-boyfriend into his car and says, "Come listen to the new record I just did with your old bitch." In a very public way, Gotti was essentially saying Jennifer Lopez wasn't being honest. He called her credibility into question.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  When I read it in Elle magazine, J-Lo, quote, "Those records are not about Puff Daddy", end quote. It was... It's the worst mistake I've ever made in my life. Because I say that to say, because J-Lo, Benny Medina, they was friends. They loved me. They loved me. Like I was a rider for them, and I would do things for them that probably no one else could do, and I would get done for them. And she was my friend. Like, why the fuck would I say that? Why the fuck would I say that?

• 11:52Malcolm Gladwell?

  But Gotti didn't stop there. He kept going.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Right? So I went on to say other damaging things, like, "How would she know? She didn't write the records. We made the records and wrote the records. She just did what we said." So she don't know who the fuck we was talking about. And yeah, we was talking about Diddy.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  And, uh...

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Then I said some more damaging shit. I was like, guys like me, we didn't listen to J- we don't listen to J Lo's music. I made guys like me listen to J Lo's music. I said, before then, we just hit the mute button and looked at our ass. Yeah.

• 12:35Malcolm Gladwell?

  Gotti reflected on this with Michael Linton and Josh Steiner when they spoke.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Wow. You can pull all this up in the Elle magazine. It's, it's, it's, it's there. Those are vivid quotes. Those are, those are like supreme asshole quotes that wasn't warranted. And when I look back, I was like, what did you do to your friend?

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  So needless to say, needless to say, it ruined my, my relationship with J Lo.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  I apologized. I sent her candy and flowers and apologized a million times. And I, you know, I was high. That's no excuse. You know what I'm saying? I apologized, bars. And she accepted my apology, but it, it forever damaged our relationship. Right. You know, superstars like J Lo, they have a small circle of people who they could trust. And I think I was in there for a second. Yeah. And I totally ruined it.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Right. So I'm an asshole.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Well, you were in that moment. I'm totally in the wrong and I'm a complete idiot. Make sure you say that, that I said that I'm a complete idiot. She didn't warrant that. She didn't warrant nothing that I said. She was my friend. And why would I do that with the biggest star and most beautiful person? Why would I do that with J Lo?

• 14:22Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

• 14:59Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is a paid message from Apple Card. It's easy, I think, in the hubbub of our lives to lose track of our spending. We pay the bills and move on and don't understand the deeper patterns in our spending, the many different decisions we're making knowingly or unknowingly. You have to understand where your money is going in order to make better decisions about it. That's one reason Apple Card stands out to me. You can earn unlimited daily cash back on every purchase you make. I also appreciate the simplicity. Apple Card doesn't have annual, late, or over-the-limit fees. No fees ever. There's even an option to open a high-yield savings account through Apple Card. And while I haven't done it yet, if I do, my daily cash can grow automatically over time

• 15:44Malcolm Gladwell?

  without any extra effort. When you better understand your spending habits, it's easier to make your money work harder for you. Apply in the Wallet app on your iPhone today. Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.74% to 27.99% based on credit worthiness. Rates as of October 1, 2026. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the Wallet app or card.apple.com. Savings is available to Apple Card owners subject to eligibility. Savings and Apple Card by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, Member FDIC. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 16:28Malcolm Gladwell?

  The new Petivity Smart Feeder for Cats turns everyday meals into meaningful health insights, helping you identify changes in your cat's habits and be more proactive about their health. My cat, Biggie Smalls, is the most demanding member of our household. He has specific mealtimes, or he lets out a massive howl. And last night, I introduced him to the Petivity Smart Feeder for Cats. It took no time to set up. I downloaded the app, plugged it in, filled up the feeder with delicious kibble, and watched as my cat entered the digital age. Biggie, look. All curious at it. It's his first experience with high technology.

• 17:11Malcolm Gladwell?

  Tiny, feline mind, blown. Check in on mealtimes with a real-time video feed and dispense food on demand even when you're away. In multi-cat households, the Petivity Smart Feeder for Cats uses facial recognition technology to track up to five cats. Visit petivity.com/catfeeder to learn more.

• 17:38Malcolm Gladwell?

  One of the themes we've tried to explore in this series is that mistakes have roots. They aren't random events. They come from somewhere. They arise out of a context, but the context often isn't obvious, not to those around the mistake maker and often not even to the mistake maker themselves. In Gotti's case, the context was a telephone call he'd been on just before the reporter called. It was with a prominent music industry executive. Gotti asked that the man's name not be used, so we're going to bleep out every mention of his name. All you need to know is that the executive is white and Gotti was black. The two of them had an argument. One of Gotti's artists had played a part in a hit song and was in the music video,

• 18:23Malcolm Gladwell?

  but had been left out of the radio version, and Gotti was unhappy about it.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  So... I was like, yo, you killing my artist. You got him on the video, but on radio, he's not there. It's sending like mixed signals. Why are you hurting me?

• 18:40Malcolm Gladwell?

  Their argument got heated. The executive said it wasn't his fault. The decision was someone else's at his label, a black man.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  He was like, I told that fat nigga not to, not to put this out. But when he said the N word, oh, that's when I, I went crazy.

• 19:00Malcolm Gladwell?

  Wow.

• 19:00Speaker 02

  I said, what the fuck you say? I said, you just called Corey Rooney a nigga? I said, when this, when this nigga see you, I'm gonna fuck you up. I said, how about that? And he was like, I have an N. And we arguing.

• 19:16Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  But he said, he's, he used the N word on some racist shit. He said, I told that fat nigga not to put the record out or put him on him.

• 19:25Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  But when he said nigga, I went, that's, that's, that's the anger.

• 19:32Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yep.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  I'm not a volatile person. I'm not a pop off. I, I would describe myself as a cool guy, level headed. But it's something about when a white person like uses the word nigga to me.

• 19:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm ready to kill. Because it's like, you start thinking of all of the fucked up shit that black people been through. And you got the audacity to say nigga in front of me? Oh, I'm gonna show you a nigga now. You know what I'm saying? Like I used to always say, like, when people would ask me, how, how would you be able? How did, how would you think you would be able to operate in those kinds of racism? And I always answer, I would die. You know what I'm saying?

• 20:25Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  I couldn't take the racism that would have been bestowed upon me. I would have killed me a couple of white people and they would have hung me and killed me. And my life would be over. I couldn't take them doing something to my mother or, you know, hanging my father. And I'm living life. Nah, you gonna have to kill me too. So.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  These are the thoughts that's in my mind.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:53Speaker 04

  Have you experienced that before where you had white people say things which you

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Now, a lot of my white friends just say, yo, that's my nigga, but I'm not mad at that.

• 21:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Use it. When they say that's my nigga, it's N I G G A. He said, yo, I told that fat nigga, that's N I G G E R. It's a big, big difference. Like, I couldn't, I couldn't believe that he just used the N word to me. That's what made me so volatile. And it was so weird. It was like, as soon as I hung up with, the phone rang without.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  It wasn't like a five minute, it wasn't even like a five minute cool off period. No. Hung up, yo, this is Elle magazine.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, what the fuck y'all want?

• 21:47Speaker 04

  Kind of like saying hello, a little different.

• 21:51Speaker 03

  Can I ask, so what do you think it was that made you, you think you were just gonna lash out at anybody who showed up in that moment?

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, within that five minutes, yeah. It was gonna get the exact same vibe. What the fuck you want?

• 22:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  It just so happened it was Elle magazine, not one of my boys.

• 22:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I said, what the fuck you want? And he was like, oh, uh, uh, I see. Like, as soon as he heard that response, he immediately cut to the chase. He said, oh, I'll just get right to it. Uh, you know, J Lo said that the records, I'm real and ain't it funny, are not about Puff Daddy, her ex-boyfriend.

• 22:43Speaker 02

  And I was like, what? That bitch is lying.

• 22:49Malcolm Gladwell?

  This was Irv Gotti's mistake. It changed his life. There was a version of the next 20 years where he could have been a creative partner with one of the biggest stars in the world. He had ideas for movies, collaborations. J Lo was a once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why this was a mistake. It had consequences. But there was a point in Gotti's interview with Steiner and Linton that I couldn't get out of my mind. Listen.

• 23:17Speaker 04

  How quickly did you realize that you'd made a mistake?

• 23:21Speaker 02

  I didn't realize quickly.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  I was so angry and mad when I got off the phone with Elle Magazine. I thought nothing of it.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  It hit me when they sent me like the transcripts of what they was gonna print.

• 23:38Speaker 04

  How long after that was that?

• 23:41Speaker 02

  A couple, a week or so, I would say.

• 23:44Speaker 04

  Right. And when you did that, did you realize it right away?

• 23:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was like, don't print that. If they was like, it's too, but they was like, it's too late.

• 23:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  They loved it. They loved it.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  And they said it was too late. And I was trying to get them not to print it, but they wasn't, they was like, hey buddy, you said it.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  Yeah. Did you get me, try to, did you get me help to try to get them not to do it? Or did you just let it go?

• 24:14Speaker 02

  I let it go. I gave it my effort, but after my effort, I just let it go.

• 24:21Malcolm Gladwell?

  He realized he'd made a mistake, that in his anger at one person, he had said something he didn't mean to another. And when he tried to prevent his mistake from having consequences, from turning into a serious mistake, he was told, hey buddy, you said it. It's too late. After Linton and Steiner's book came out, I interviewed them onstage at the 92nd Street Y in New York. And I brought up their chapter on Gotti. So, who's the villain of the story?

• 24:51Speaker 04

  Not every story has to have a villain.

• 24:53Speaker 03

  No, but tell me who the villain of the story is.

• 24:56Speaker 04

  So don't, Michael, don't fall for this. Like, this is okay. This is why he's so good.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  Well.

• 25:01Speaker 04

  But don't fall for his trap. Like, okay, you can say not every.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Well, I gotta keep the conversation going. I would argue it was the executive who used the N-word. Josh, who's the villain of the story?

• 25:11Speaker 04

  Here's what I think. That guy acted terribly. There is no villain in the story. And I think

• 25:16Speaker 04

  an important piece of what we tried to describe is that there isn't always a villain. There isn't always some outside danger. There isn't always some consequence that has been derived from a villain. That these things are deep rooted in ourselves. And we're not villainous. And so that aspect of our personality doesn't make us bad. This isn't a morality test. This is an opportunity to explore oneself and come to terms and acceptance of the fact that we're flawed and the way to get, hopefully, healthier and better is to talk about it.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  Who do you think the villain is?

• 25:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  A man who has a very close relationship to the biggest rock star in the world.

• 25:55Malcolm Gladwell?

  A relationship that has resulted in extraordinary commercial success. Is called by a reporter and is asked a question about that relationship. And in the course of answering that question, the man says, oh, she's a liar. Who's the villain in the story?

• 26:09Speaker 03

  You think it's Irv?

• 26:11Speaker 03

  No?

• 26:12Malcolm Gladwell?

  It's the reporter.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  But the reporter doesn't.

• 26:14Malcolm Gladwell?

  No, no, no, no. This is a crucial, crucial point, Michael.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 26:19Malcolm Gladwell?

  And I think this is because it's about when mistakes are made. And they are as deeply rooted as you suggest they are. They're not, what's your, the whole argument of the book is a mistake can come out in the spur of the moment, but it, it's not something that's coming out in the spur of the moment. It's something that has roots.

• 26:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 26:39Malcolm Gladwell?

  And what does that require of those who observe and are part of the process in which the mistake is played out? It requires some degree of grace and forgiveness and understanding.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 26:52Malcolm Gladwell?

  So the reporter hears some, Irv Gotti, Irv Gotti say something that is completely out of place. Right? It makes, the reason, the reason that story, so that story you put. But what is an important detail is here is it goes, it's all across the country. It's like, it's huge. That's why it blows up so much. Everyone seizes on this. Her longtime collaborator called J Lo a liar, right? If you are the reporter in that instance, and someone says something they shouldn't say, your obligation is to say, wait, why did you say that? And if they can't give you a satisfactory answer, your obligation is not to use it. I'm sorry, it's not to use it.

• 27:33Malcolm Gladwell?

  You're not, you shouldn't, you can't make someone, the reporter turned that from a nothing into a destruction of someone's career because they had not the slightest concern for his well-being or his reputation. And if they had an ounce of self-understanding or of general understanding, they would have understood that he didn't mean to say that. They should at the very least have said, did you mean to say that? Right? That's your responsibility. And the reporter failed in that fundamental. Why do people hate the press? Because in an interview like this, where we could talk for three hours and you say one thing out of place because you happen to be irritated about something else and the reporter runs with that one thing? That's malpractice.

• 28:17Malcolm Gladwell?

  Why is this person getting a pass? That's terrible. I'm sorry, I'm really upset about this. I was upset about this. Because you can't do this if you're a journalist. The whole profession works on an implied contract. Somebody grants you the gift of their time and attention and thoughts. They make themselves vulnerable. And in return, you pledge to respect that vulnerability. You're not a stenographer. You've entered for the duration of the interview into an intimate relationship. And intimate relationships have rules.

• 28:51Malcolm Gladwell?

  But then I went home after that interview at the Y, after I had called the reporter a villain and a disgrace to our profession. And I realized, I don't even know who this person is. And then I thought to myself, oops. Now I've made a mistake. So I decided to track the reporter down. That's after the break.

• 29:24Speaker 00

  This is Jacob Goldstein. With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. When you're running a business and looking to expand, you need a clear view of the landscape before making any decisions. ChatGPT can help you prepare. Connect your Google Drive, point to relevant files and reports, and ask it to research competitors, industry forecasts, and market signals. It can turn the findings into a strategic deck in your team's template that you can review before presenting to your leadership team. Growing a business is ambitious, and ChatGPT can help you do it with confidence. Get started today at chatgpt.com.

• 30:02Malcolm Gladwell?

  The new Petivity Smart Feeder for Cats turns everyday meals into meaningful health insights, helping you identify changes in your cat's habits and be more proactive about their health. My cat, Biggie Smalls, is the most demanding member of our household. He has specific mealtimes, or he lets out a massive howl. Last night, I introduced him to the Petivity Smart Feeder for Cats. It took no time to set up. I downloaded the app, plugged it in, filled up the feeder with delicious kibble, and watched as my cat entered the digital age. Biggie, look. All curious at it. It's its first experience with high technology.

• 30:45Malcolm Gladwell?

  Tiny, feline mind, blown. Check in on mealtime with a real-time video feed and dispense food on demand even when you're away. In multi-cat households, the Petivity Smart Feeder for Cats uses facial recognition technology to track up to five cats. Visit petivity.com/catfeeder to learn more.

• 31:10Malcolm Gladwell?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. World Mental Health Day is a good time to think about what mental health actually is. It's not confined to some catastrophic life event, a breakdown, a trauma, a crisis. It's part of everyday life. It's ups and downs and difficult moments, and sometimes even as simple as the feeling that something isn't quite right. That's why therapy is important, because it can help us navigate those everyday ups and downs before any of them become overwhelming.

• 31:52Malcolm Gladwell?

  It's being listened to by someone who's trained to listen and being understood by someone who makes a living out of understanding people. It's a gift. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks, and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside the US? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com/gladwell to explore your payment options. That's betterh-e-l-p.com/gladwell. What do you remember about that interview?

• 32:31Speaker 04

  It's funny you're asking this, something that no one's ever asked me, because I remember that interview quite well for a few reasons.

• 32:42Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is Carter Harris. He wrote the L profile. He's now a screenwriter, teaches at NYU. And one of the reasons this article he wrote 25 years ago sticks out is the reaction it got, particularly from J-Lo and her manager Benny Medina.

• 32:58Speaker 04

  I actually remember being in a car with Benny Medina in Los Angeles, and I can't remember why we were in a car, but...

• 33:06Speaker 04

  He was telling me how disappointed J Lo was and he was because it seemed like a negative interview. I wasn't negative at all, from my perspective.

• 33:15Malcolm Gladwell?

  At some point, his profile of J Lo completely disappeared from the internet. And he always wondered if J Lo and her manager had something to do with it. Was Gotti upset during the call? Yes, he was, Harris remembers. He seemed like he was in a state. He mentioned something about having just gotten off the phone with someone. He thought Harris was a fashion writer. And Gotti seemed relieved to learn that Harris had been an editor at The Source, the magazine that was the bible of rap at the time. They talked about Puffy Combs, and I'm real, I ain't it funny. And then Gotti said that bit about J Lo not telling the truth. When you heard it, when you were interviewing him, and decided to use what you were using,

• 33:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  did you think that you might be jeopardizing his relationship with J Lo?

• 34:05Speaker 04

  No.

• 34:07Speaker 04

  And maybe that was naive of me. But what I thought was, in the moment, was wow. That was honest. She might be a little bit

• 34:19Speaker 04

  irked, vexed by one or two of the quotes. But I never imagined that it would be such a big deal for her or for him. I mean, I thought she'd be vexed. I mean, when you say, you know, I gave her more hood credibility, that's gonna be like, come on, dude. Or when you say, it was really about Diddy. And basically, you're accusing her of not being honest, you know? Yeah, I totally understand why she was vexed. And even at the time, I was like, oh, she might be a little ticked off about this. But I figured they'd air it out, either publicly or privately,

• 35:04Speaker 04

  that she'd be like, come on, he overstepped on this one. And then maybe he comes back and says, yeah, all right, I was on Molly, which he was willing to say back then.

• 35:11Malcolm Gladwell?

  Is it weird to hear someone say, 25 years later, that the biggest mistake they made in their life was something they said to you in an interview?

• 35:21Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 35:24Speaker 04

  That made me feel very strange. When I heard that, I was

• 35:32Speaker 04

  I was very surprised and very... I was a little disturbed too because I... When I heard that, then I did have feelings. Then I was like, "Oh shit, what did I do wrong?" You know, it was like, was I responsible for this somehow?

• 35:46Malcolm Gladwell?

  Did he run the quotes by Gotti and tell him that it was too late? You said it? No, that would have been the fact checker. That's the way things worked in the magazine world of those years.

• 35:56Speaker 04

  If he had called me and said, "I was in a state. Can you take those quotes out?" Yeah, I probably would have worked with him on that. But I never got that call. Nobody ever asked me about those quotes. So, you know, what can I really do? But yeah, I certainly felt weird about it. I mean, you know, I don't take any joy in being, you know, a part of anyone's biggest regret.

• 36:26Malcolm Gladwell?

  Carter was frank and thoughtful. I liked him.

• 36:31Malcolm Gladwell?

  He was talking about a decision he made many years ago, when he was much younger. And he said that he wouldn't necessarily do the same thing today. I understand that. You have to make a certain number of mistakes to understand what a mistake is.

• 36:46Speaker 04

  It's really interesting because if I had been in the gym and somebody had told me this story and I was not the reporter and I was not Gotti, I probably would have had the exact same response. I'm pretty sure I would have been like, "What? They said what? They messed with Gotti? Like, and they screwed up a relationship with J-Lo and Gotti? You know, this is bullshit. This is like the media, you know? They do this, especially Elle and these corporate magazines and, you know, all that. So I'm not surprised to hear that that was your response. That probably would have been my response.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  But to the larger point, I think we all do this in our own way, in lots of different contexts. We jump to conclusions, mistaken conclusions. And I certainly do in my life. And if I've learned anything, it's that I have to check myself sometimes and say, wait a minute, I'm human like everybody else. I'm jumping to a conclusion. I should go look and see if there's more to this story. Doesn't necessarily mean my conclusion that I wanted to jump to is wrong. Could be right. Could be worse than I thought it was. But I do think that that's the thing to take from this is like, hey, everybody,

• 38:11Speaker 04

  each of us can check ourselves, you know, we all have the ability to check ourselves and say, hey, maybe I should look into this a little bit more.

• 38:21Malcolm Gladwell?

  We can all check ourselves a little bit more. On that, I have to agree.

• 38:30Malcolm Gladwell?

  Revisionist History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Nadaf Hafry. Our editor is Karen Shakurji. Fact checking by Angel Lee Mercado. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence. Original music by Luis Guerra. Sound design and mastering by Marcelo Di Alavera. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.

• 39:00Malcolm Gladwell?

  Coming up on the next episode in our mistakes series.

• 39:04Speaker 05

  This is madness. And yeah, and it was just jaw on the floor. I just never experienced anything like that. And I didn't see it coming.

• 39:17Speaker 04

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