IN-DEPTH: Greatness vs. Contentment (w/ Kendra Adachi)

This IN-DEPTH is brought to you by Defender. In this episode of IN-DEPTH, Cal welcomes the bestselling author Kendra Adachi to talk about her new book, THE PLAN, which introduces the innovative idea of “compassionate time management.” Kendra and Cal discuss how to move beyond the forever pursuit of “greatness” to instead seek satisfaction in your current life; the ways in which time management and productivity writing ignores the specific concerns of women; and why flexibility and pivoting are more important skills than precise planning. Video from today’s episode: youtube.com/calnewportmedia Links:https://www.landroverusa.comhttps://www.calnewport.com/slow Thanks to Jesse Miller for production, Jay Kerstens for the intro music, Kieron Rees for the theme music, and Mark Miles for mastering. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:15Cal Newport?

  I'm Cal Newport and this is In Depth, a semi-regular series where I interview interesting people about the quest to cultivate a deep life. Today's episode is presented by Defender, a vehicle designed for those of us seeking adventure in a distracted world. I'm excited about today's show because I'll be talking with Kendra Adachi. I've known Kendra for a while and she's a leader in a movement that she calls compassionate time management. You might know her from her Lazy Genius podcast or from her book, The Lazy Genius, but she has a new title out, that's what we're going to be talking about today, a new book

• 0:57Cal Newport?

  that is called The Plan: Manage Your Time Like a Lazy Genius. So Kendra and I are exploring similar spaces that I explored in my prior episode with Oliver Berkman, but we come at it from different angles that I think are fascinating and useful for our quest on this show to understand depth, how to build a life that matters without getting obsessed about the process of the building. I think Kendra's fantastic on it. Here are some of the issues we get into in today's episode. Why being a genius in one thing means you might have to be lazy in many other things and that that's okay. We talk about why the

• 1:37Cal Newport?

  unceasing pursuit of greatness, which is the focus of a lot of time management productivity advice, this idea that everything you're doing now is about achieving some greatness in the future. We get into why that can be self-defeating and exhausting and how the alternative, which Kendra calls integration, which involves living wholly with your current situation, can in the end be so much more fulfilling. We get into my own recovery from greatness pursuit addiction. We get some free therapy here from Kendra about my own middle-aged evolution of what I think is important in my life. And I think this is critical. We get into why time management and productivity writing tends to neglect

• 2:20Cal Newport?

  the reality of women and how Kendra is trying to remedy that with this book and her podcasts and writings in general. Now, I gave a cover blurb for the plan. In fact, I think I'm the only male blubber of this book, something that I'm very proud about. Here's what I wrote on the cover of Kendra's book. "Strikingly original and compassionate, Kendra offers a vision of time management that embraces the unique messiness of your life instead of trying to optimize it away." I very much agree with that sentiment, and I think you might too, after you hear our conversation. But first, I want to say a word about today's presenting sponsor, Defender. Let's start with the idea of a presenting sponsor altogether.

• 3:05Cal Newport?

  This is new, but it was what I have said from the beginning of this series. My goal is to try to find for each episode, a single presenting sponsor, a high-quality brand I actually like, that would then allow us to present the interview without interruption, so that once we get to the interview, we can really get lost in the conversation without ad breaks. Well, I couldn't be more excited that our very first such presenting sponsor we have found for this series is Defender. The iconic Defender line of vehicles has been reimagined for a new generation of explorers. The Defender 90, 110, and 130, which can seat up to eight passengers,

• 3:50Cal Newport?

  all maintained a legendary off-road capability for which Defender is known, but now combined with legendary new on-road capabilities as well. This includes, for example, 21st century technologies such as 3D surround cameras, the ability to see underneath your car, as well as to see through your rear window, even if it is obstructed, a next-generation PV Pro infotainment system and intuitive driver displays. What I really like about Defender, however, is that psychologically speaking, it keeps you connected to a sense of adventure. So even as you're enjoying all those technologies on your smooth-driving commute to work, you will be reminded, because you're in this iconic vehicle brand...

• 4:37Cal Newport?

  That adventure awaits and that there's more to life than just the pragmatic through the motions chores that you might be looking at today. It's a mindset that I think at our current age of email and Zoom meetings is important to keep in mind that sometimes you want to just get out there and get after it, whether that be physically or metaphorically. So I'm glad that Defender is our sponsor. You can visit landroverusa.com to learn more about Defender. And with that, let us now get to our interview with Kendra Adachi, presented without any interruption. All right. Well, Kendra, it's great to see you again. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

• 5:21Cal Newport?

  I've been looking forward to this one. You've done something very interesting with this book that I'm looking forward to getting into. So we'll start with it. Let's start with the book. It's called The Plan, PLAN capitalized because it's an acronym. We'll get to that in a second.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 5:36Cal Newport?

  Manage Your Time Like a Lazy Genius, a certified New York Times bestseller.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 5:41Cal Newport?

  I should say. For a lot of people who know you, the phrase lazy genius, like a course, this is like what you're associated with. But for the part of my audience that's new to the world of Kendra, maybe like bring us up to speed on this term lazy genius was not chosen at the last minute as you're writing this particular subtitle. This is a long existing concept in your universe. So what do we mean by that?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. So a lazy genius is someone who is a genius about the things that matter and lazy about the things that don't. And the key here is that you get to decide what matters to you and whatever season of life that you're in, where just most of the rhetoric I heard for so long, years ago, over a decade ago, was either you're just amazing at everything, like she can do it all, or you are like messy here, don't care. Like there was these two extremes of either you're amazing at everything or you just care about nothing and you've given up. And even that giving up is like a badge of honor. Now, that's definitely something that is in, I would say, the female space a lot more. But it is a really tough.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Spectrum to kind of swing between those two ends. And I think most people, not just women, most people live in a very wide middle, where there are things that they want to be excellent at. You want to give your genius energy and your time to these things that matter to you. But if you do that, you do have to be lazy about other things. You do have to sort of let things slide, or be happy with C-level work, or delegate them a lot, or whatever. So what I, what I try to teach people is not just, it's not necessarily about like hacks and specific tips. It's more this almost lifestyle of paying attention to where you are and the season of life you're in, and naming what matters there, so that you can actually make wise decisions about your time.

• 7:34Cal Newport?

  I mean, I learned that phrase for the first time, lazy here, don't care. In your interview with Sharon McManus, who also has a cool new book out. And I was like, that, that is a cool phrase. Well, and there's also an interesting sort of niche in the market out there of, I guess, people who are in that camp, but aren't really, because they're spending a lot of very focused time trying to market that message and writing books about that message, or whatever. It's the, the performative laziness is an interesting thing.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  It is, it really is. And that's, that's why I found such resonance with this message. Because a lot of people, we sort of already know intuitively that trying to do it all doesn't really work.

• 8:13Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Sometimes we keep going, but there, there are actually more resources out there for people who are trying to do more. So it's, it's easier to find a path, sort of, to feel like you're making some headway in this direction, even though I'm not sure a lot of us do, at least with not some expense that we pay on the back end with our health and our time and our family and whatever. But this other side, yeah, the performative laziness, it's, it's like this, it's just as unfulfilling and takes, is just as unsustainable as trying to do it all, because it's not authentic to most people. We actually do want to care about things. Like, life is fulfilling because we, we feel a purpose in certain directions. You just can't feel a purpose in every single one.

• 8:59Cal Newport?

  This is an odd connection to make, but stick with me here. I want to connect that to college admissions.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 9:05Cal Newport?

  Okay. When I was younger and I was writing books for students, I got very into giving talks and even wrote a book about this, about college admissions and the stress surrounding it. And this was this very interesting dynamic that arose in the early 2000s when there was a huge stress as the echo boom sort of squeezed into a smaller number of spots and colleges got more competitive. What I found was, there was a whole industry whose response to the stress of college admissions was just to preach the message, there's more to life than Harvard, right? Just chill out, like you shouldn't be so stressed about college, life is long, it doesn't matter that much. And most of these people were Ivy League educated.

• 9:48Cal Newport?

  And there was a sort of like pull the ladder up behind you. And so this wasn't resonating with the people who are suffering the most stress because they were the most locked in on like, it really matters where I go to college. So they were just completely tuning out that message. So then I came in, I was giving these talks around the country where my whole approach was validating, okay, this is a valid, you know, ambition. You care about the college you go into. But the stress of the way that people are doing this is not worth it. So maybe we can find a way, this is like lazy genius ahead of time, maybe we can find a way to keep interesting options open for colleges, but you're not going to burn yourself out at the age of 17. And it was a really hard path to go because there was the, the crew of like, no, no, no, just there's more to life than college and parents

• 10:32Cal Newport?

  are bad because their kids want to get into it. And then on the other end, it was, you know, type till you're, study till your eyes bleed, like that's all that matters.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Hard to bust, yeah, yeah.

• 10:41Cal Newport?

  And that in-between resonated because people say, yeah, I have this ambition, but also I don't want to sleep three hours a day when I'm, when I'm 16. So there's

• 10:48Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 10:48Cal Newport?

  But I love that sweet spot. So, so, okay, here's the terminology from your book that I thought was profound. Talk about integration versus greatness as this spoke to me in a lot of ways.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  I love hearing that. So. I have read so many time management productivity books over the years. Like I, for the purpose of trying to do it all, like that was my original reason. And as I was researching this book and trying to think about what this was going to be, I just had this like light bulb moment where I realized, wait a minute. Almost every single book I've ever read and every episode, podcast episode that I listened to, like everything in the space in general is trying to make me better. It's trying to make me amazing. It's trying to level up and 10x. Everything is just this upward movement. And I went, I don't want that though.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Like, that's not what I want the goal of my day to day life to be. It's not greatness, because if that is the goal, I will always be behind. I will always feel like a day is a failure. Cause what does great even mean? Like, what's the, what's the measurement for that? There's no universal gauge for what that's going to be like. And when you talk about a female experience in particular, where you're, you know, kind of holding like, you're holding the domestic tasks of the home. It's like the invisible scaffolding of your household management, all those things. It's just, it feels so debilitating to feel like you have to be great all the time.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  And, but our, even our country in many ways is built on that. It's built on potential and chasing your dreams and you hustle your way to the top and anybody can get what they want. And I think that in many ways, that's really beautiful. Like, that's a hopeful, beautiful thing that we can have as part of our DNA. But this expectation that everyone wants to be great and has the capacity and interest to be great in every element of their lives is just like false. I just think we've been. We've been sold a lie.

• 13:07Cal Newport?

  Right.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  So instead, what if we have a different goal? What if instead of greatness being our goal at every turn? What if it's integration? What if it is being a grounded, whole person right where we are? Where we do not, it's like you just said about those college kids, where we are not sacrificing our humanity on the altar of productivity, on the altar of optimization, on getting more done in less time? What if integration is where we began? So what that, what that, it honestly changes everything. If that is your lens, if you're looking through a lens of integration, you stop asking questions like, well, how can I make the most of this day off that I have? How can I make the most of the?

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Everything no longer becomes about making the most of. How can I be here right now and honor who I am and who's in front of me? And my season of life? It's just a very like, it's a very present perspective.

• 14:06Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  And I will say it's a bit of a hard sell though. Cause it's not, it's not very like, you can't make a list out of it. It's not a very sexy sell. And yet it's the most sustainable, fulfilling sell, sale I think that there is for most people.

• 14:22Cal Newport?

  What's the role? Because I can't help like connecting to this. I'm thinking about the role of technology in this.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 14:29Cal Newport?

  Right? Because I went back, this is like a hobby horse of mine. I'm very interested in like the state of book publishing on these topics versus other discussions on these topics. And I actually think book publishing has gotten to like an interesting place. I have it here somewhere. I went through and actually got the top 10, top 10 bestsellers on Amazon right now in time management.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 14:54Cal Newport?

  And I went through them and like right now in this moment, very few of the books that are big right now are about charting Xine or doing more. Those are almost like we're in like a back flat, a backlash. Some of these I don't know as well. Number one right now is buy back your time. I think that's like one of these entrepreneur books where it's basically saying, you outsource stuff. If you're an entrepreneur, like you see that as a business investment like any other. That book seems really popular. Slow productivity is up there, which is, you know, the opposite of that. Four hour work week was like the original. Complete dismissal. I mean, it's interesting, Ferris is seen as the optimization man, but that book was like, the original work is so unimportant that you should just figure out a way to take advantage of the internet, to automate something that makes you just

• 15:38Cal Newport?

  enough money that you can learn Tango. It's just like nihilistic, almost like anarchist book. The Organized Mind is up there right now, which is just, that's actually a neuroscience book. Deep Work is on there, which is about like, hey, busyness is not as valuable as we think.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:51Cal Newport?

  12-week year is, I think, a traditional corporate get more done, right?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  It is, ever a 12-week year, yes.

• 15:56Cal Newport?

  Because it's like, compress your timeframe, so you'll be more urgent. Yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kind of like, if you rename what a year is, you have more years available to you.

• 16:04Cal Newport?

  So you can hustle harder, because you have the pressure. Yeah. Then we have Essentialism, your book, Art of Laziness, Getting Things Done. So it's like, and Getting Things Done, also, I have this long argument about, is, that's like a cry to cure. This is like David Allen, like, how do you, like, maintain your sanity when we have so much damn stuff we have to do all day? It was like this weird sort of nihilistic. But online, the conversation's much different.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  It is much different.

• 16:29Cal Newport?

  Everything you're talking about feels like it is in lights on the marquee, online. The morning routine stuff, the fitness stuff is crazy.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's everywhere.

• 16:42Cal Newport?

  I mean, men and women, every man doing fitness stuff online is like a superhero with muscled body. And it's like, well, why aren't you like this at 40? Like, what are you doing with your time? This is only three hours a day, and weighing all your food or whatever, why, why catch this as well? The connection, the optimization, the hustle culture. And so this is all, it's like the heart of productivity discourse that moved online. And it seems like it's for the worse. And I'm wondering if, because of algorithms, because of what works, it's the discourse around productivity, because it has shifted online, has shifted towards extremes. And that is why, like, a book like yours is resonating with so many people, because we're tired of that online, that online space's treatment of this is really trying to exhaust us.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Well, it's because contentment does not drive the social media marketplace. You know, the messages of contentment are not going to keep people online. You know, so it's, it is a, there's always a deficit. You know, we have to be told where the bucket is emptying or where we can do better so that we'll stay on. And we're like, oh, wait, is that a problem? I guess I, okay, well, let me see how this guy can do his burpees when he's doing it. You know, like, it's, it is kind of silly. And I think to a point, we are, I think most people are intuitive and wise enough to sort of see, you know, you know, they take kind of the, the, is it like the blue pill or the red pill? Like, they see the machinery of it all. Yeah.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  And yet, we're so easily influenced by it. Because contentment is not something that is highly valued for a lot of people in Western capitalistic culture. Like, it's just not something, it doesn't, it doesn't drive anything forward. It doesn't make money. If you're happy with your life, if you're happy with what you have, if you're like, you know what? This is enough. That's not great for the industry. And, and so it's, it's, um, it makes sense to me that the online messaging doesn't align as much as the publishing world. Because it's not going to, you know, it's not going to keep the internet moving anyway.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  But I also think it just, it just speaks to our, I don't know, it's like, there's this, there's this deep need that we have to feel like that our lives mean something. You know, that they matter, that we want our lives to have purpose. And if we don't already have an answer to that question for our own lives, we're going to fill in the blank with what the internet is telling us we should do. Because we don't have anything there. So that's why really, the ultimate work that I want to do is to help people name that. To where are you right now? What matters to you right now? What makes you feel like yourself? How do you feel like you're contributing? Are you resting?

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Like, you are a, like a tree planted by the water, right? You are not a balloon floating in the air. Like, let's be planted where we are. And I think that that, if, the more that people are that way individually, The more that contentment and just things being enough as they are, it feels like you're not being counterintuitive. It feels like you're not being countercultural. It's like, again, back to your college admission thing, that you were trying to convince these people, there is a third way to think about this. But they didn't know because the only things that were filling in the blanks were these two extremes. So it's like, we're trying to widen that gap and help people see it through a completely new paradigm.

• 20:23Cal Newport?

  Well, so maybe you can help me because I'm a recovering greatness addict. This is like a recurrent theme in my own life is moving beyond that narrative, which has been a driving narrative for my life for a while. And now I'm kind of at the limits of the various things I've been doing for 20 years.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, you've done a good job. You have a lot of things that you've been great at.

• 20:45Cal Newport?

  Yeah, but I'll tell you, it's Sisyphean, right? Because no matter where, this is what I found. It's my book is number two on the New York Times Bestseller list. So what's the thought? What does it take to get the number one?

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 20:58Cal Newport?

  That's the...

• 20:59Speaker 01

  The finish line is always moving. It's always moving.

• 21:02Cal Newport?

  But there is a satisfaction, right? In the hatching of the plan. I think this is a lot of what sort of that hustle oriented productivity is leveraging. There's a satisfaction in I have a plan. Imagining the reward of the plan allows you to get a down payment on feeling good about it. And so there's that kind of fulfillment you have. It's, I don't know if it's distracting from life or orienting life or whatever, when you have some sort of plans in place. So I'm trying to figure out with your help, how does an integration mindset sort of replace that need to have too much? Have your focus on a future state. That like, oh, I have this plan and this exciting. I can daydream about the plan.

• 21:44Cal Newport?

  How do we get more satisfaction out of being more present with our life as it is now? And what's good about and what we're doing with it? Like, help me walk through as a recovering greatness addict, how to move more towards like an integration mindset.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  I think that you are, and I'm the same way. People who are really good. Planners in the normative way. Yeah. People who are really good at organization in the way that the narrow way that we've all been taught it should look. It's harder for us to actually disengage it because we've been, we are rewarded by it because we're good at it. We can get that dopamine hit when we make the plan and when it might come, come true. And so it's actually, I think, harder work for people who are naturally gifted at preparation and organization and, and even optimization. And if your, your actual work, if your career trajectory is one that, you know, people would,

• 22:41Speaker 01

  would envy, people see you, I know people see you as, as somebody that they want to follow, like, I like, Cal has done it. What did Cal do? How can I do it like Cal did? Like, so it's, it's actually a lot harder for people who are good at the thing to disengage from the thing. And I will say, I, the, you had mentioned it before, that plan is capitalized because it's an acronym. So the three of the letters of that acronym, the P, A, and the N, prepare, adjust, and notice. Those three words work in harmony with one another. They work equally with one another.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  And what, what has happened is that we have been given this very narrow view of what it means to be a planner. And I think a way that we can disengage from this idea of greatness and looking at our lives through a lens of integration and, and almost in this state of recovery, almost, is to look to the people in our lives who are actually really, really good, maybe not at preparation, but at making adjustments in the, in the moment, who are really good at noticing what's happening in the room, that they know what's happening with the people that we walk in and we're like, okay, here's our checklist, let's go. And they walk in and they go, the vibe in here. Yeah. Somebody, somebody's worried about their job or somebody is what, you know, like,

• 24:07Speaker 01

  there are people who are really gifted at these other, just as important elements, in my opinion, of planning. And so if we can expand. Our definition of what it means to be a good planner into someone who is also really good at pivoting, really good at immediate problem solving, that they don't have to have the color-coded list, that they don't have to have the Google Calendar that's set up in such a way that every single minute is accounted for, that there are people who can, again, they're intuitive and they walk in a room and they're relational, or they're quiet, or they just, they just know what's going on under the surface for people.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  People like that have been left out of the conversation of what it means to be a good planner, and therefore, they don't have a problem with what I'm saying. They're like, "Oh, I'm on board, because you're leaving space for me." For people like you and I, it's like, "Oh, wait a minute, but I'm really good at this, though. Like, why do I have to, why do I have to stop?" And I would say that for people like both of us, who are, yeah, kind of have this addiction, have had this addiction to greatness and optimization and leveling up all the time, is for us to look back and go like, "What? What is it done? Like, what is it good for?" It has gotten me things,

• 25:33Speaker 01

  of course. It's gotten me, it's gotten us career success or whatever. But if you stop and go, if that's where I begin, if I open my eyes in the morning and I put on a pair of glasses and that lens is a lens of greatness, like, how much am I going to get done today? How impressive am I going to be? How organized am I going to be? In this very normative sense that I'm already good at and have been affirmed in, listen, it is really hard to switch those glasses to glasses of integration. Yeah. Because it's, it's, it's, it's smaller. It makes people smaller in a way at first that's really scary, I think. Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  I think moving to a place of integration, it sort of takes, you take yourself off the pedestal.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  In a way that's like, oh, it's like, it's uncomfortable because for many of us, I will not speak for you in this, my success, my, I was valedictorian of my high school class. I was voted most dependable by my high school, my senior class. Like, this has been my, I was in second grade, teachers were like, starting then, I was always the room monitor when the teacher left the room. You know, like, I do things well. I can be depended on, and I'm going to be excellent at them. If that has been your trajectory for a long time, it's really hard to separate that from your value as a person.

• 26:57Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  It's really scary. And this doesn't have to become like a, you know, a therapy session or whatever. But I think that's why it's hard. Because when you're rewarded for being great, and you're great at being great, why would you want to let that go? But it's also exhausting on the inside. And you think if you don't, like, if I didn't make the New York Times for this book, I've written three books, the first two made all four lists, and this one, I'm like, well, if I don't make this one, everybody in the industry is going to think I'm an idiot, and I don't know what I'm talking about. Even though the book came out in a really competitive month, like, greatness becomes this, it's like the core of your identity.

• 27:34Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  In a way that's, takes you out of your own life. And I, it's, it's kind of like, you have to choose, I have to choose. I would rather be a person who is okay with the disappointment of not being great at a thing, and being with myself in that, than being great and feel like a husk of a person.

• 27:55Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  It's a very soul level choice.

• 27:58Cal Newport?

  Well, let's stick with it then. You mentioned, from a practical perspective, you mentioned the pyramid. So it's prepare, notice, adjust. And they're supposed to be in balance, right? So it's, it's sort of like an equilateral triangle, if we're going to be nerdy about it.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, tetrahedron, I think is what the, the real word is. Plan tetrahedron doesn't sound as good as a plan pyramid, so we had to go with plan pyramid.

• 28:18Cal Newport?

  Now, now you're speaking my language. Like, let's get into the right polygon references.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it.

• 28:23Cal Newport?

  Yeah, let's talk about. There's not, if there's no trigonometry in your time management book,

• 28:28Speaker 01

  What are we doing?

• 28:29Cal Newport?

  What are we doing here?

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 28:31Cal Newport?

  All right, so walk us through that, though. Okay, so prepare, adjust, notice, trying to keep these three things in balance. And then you have live. I've heard it both described as the foundation and also as the point.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  It's the point.

• 28:43Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  The point. I would say the foundation of the, of the pyramid itself is what matters to you in the season that you're in.

• 28:50Cal Newport?

  Okay. All right, so walk us through this.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna make, so, so the, so let's throw a triangle on the ground. Okay, that's the foundation of our pyramid here. The triangle on the ground is what matters to you in the season that you're in. What matters to you right now? If you think back, Cal, to when you were 23, what mattered to you at the age of 23? Probably does not matter now. And it shouldn't. I think a lot of times what, what matters to us is going to change as we grow and we evolve as people and we, our families change and all of that. So it's wise, it is so wise to not lock in on something that matters to you 15 years ago. You're allowed to change your mind. You're allowed to change your mind.

• 29:29Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  So name what matters to you right now in the season you're in. And then you have those three.

• 29:32Cal Newport?

  And you're saying, by the way, that, that scale of season can also be very variable, right? Like this could change throughout the year.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:38Cal Newport?

  As well as change throughout your life. It could change over the decade, but it also could change within the month. Like you have these different scales, which I think is an important concept.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, like my, we are recording this the week after Thanksgiving. My daughter has had pneumonia for the last 10 days. We have been in, that's been the season that we're in.

• 29:57Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  What matters right now with the kids sick at home and we're moving into like family coming in and I have to cook a big meal and all the things. Your priorities have to change based on what matters right now. It is a deeply, deeply wise thing to do. And the reason that it feels strange to do that, just to, you know, go down a rabbit trail really quickly, is because most of the traditional productivity books historically have been like, make a plan, you know, figure out your ideal life 30 years down the road, reverse engineer it and stick with the plan. And if you don't, you're an undisciplined person. Like that's sort of the vibe.

• 30:35Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  That's not sustainable or realistic for anyone, really. So yeah, name what matters in your season. Your season can be whatever.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Boundary you need it to be. And then the three sides of the pyramid are prepare, adjust, and notice. And just for like, the sake of under, I won't go through all of them, but just to kind of get a vibe. There are principles for each one of these letters to help you sort of know, like, how am I? Where, where am I in this? Just reminders for us. So like, prepare. Some of the mindsets for prepare are not everything can matter. As you're preparing, you have to believe that not every single thing in your life can matter in an equal way. A plan that you make, a plan is an intention. It is not a pass fail. If you, if you prepare something and it doesn't go to plan, it doesn't mean it failed or that you failed. It just means the intention didn't happen. It's life, it's the way it goes.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  For adjust, match your expectations to the energy that you're willing and able to give. If you have, so often, if we decide that we're going to do something, we have expectations for something, and it doesn't happen, we try to hack our energy rather than adjust our expectations. Right? So as, that's the way that we adjust. For notice, staying grounded is better than staying on task.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  That's a weird one for people to get behind. They're like, wait a minute, the task is all the things. I'm like, I think you need to start by being with yourself and in that moment going, what matters most right now? Like, if, for me, the times that take me out of that the quickest are my children. And so if I, if a kid is like still lying on the couch and his ride is picking him up for school in five minutes, and he has not brushed his teeth, and he doesn't have his shoes on, and he's 15 years old, and I start to go, he can legally drive a car in a year, and he still forgets to brush his teeth. What are we doing? And I will come, I will turn into a rage mother, a Hulk monster. But if I go, okay, hold on, notice, what matters right now, actually, is that I stay connected with my kid.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  Not that I force him to be this compliant person that I want him to be. For me, that's my goal. So I'm going to go, what matters right now? I'm going to stay grounded rather than getting him on task. I'm going to be kind, so that I can go to him and stay kind and preserve this relationship, and then also be like, get off the couch and go brush your teeth. You know, it's like, we're not.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  It's really important, when I talk about this, it's really important to make sure that people understand, I'm not saying, "Don't do your stuff, don't be good at your stuff, don't try to even be great," but if you begin with this far-out future view, with this lens of, "I've got to do all of it perfectly well, and I cannot deviate off course," rather than this fluid, very human, wise responsiveness to your life, you will burn out so fast. But you can, I believe you still, you get your things done better and in a way that brings you more fulfillment, when you are a tree by the water.

• 33:44Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  You know, when those roots keep going deep. And then the, and then back to the pyramid, the L is the point. It's the top.

• 33:50Cal Newport?

  It's pulling up the...

• 33:52Speaker 01

  It's pulling it all up.

• 33:53Cal Newport?

  The 2D shape into the 3D.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yes, which is to live our lives, to be where we are, to enjoy our people, to go outside and do the fun things we like to do. Like, it's, we just, I don't want to live only when I'm 70 years old, you know, and I've done all of these things to get me to this future ideal place. I want to live today. I want to live my life right now.

• 34:16Cal Newport?

  Well, I mean, first I'll say to my audience, why, partially why this is important is it's, we don't cover this well. I don't do a ton of time management advice, I'm known for it, but what I do talk about tends to be very narrowly focused, I think this is another issue, very narrowly focused on the modern knowledge work, digital office.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 34:40Cal Newport?

  And it's like a survival game. It's this, "Oh, my God, I'm getting 150 emails a day, I'm feeling murderous towards the inventor of Zoom," and it's this, "We got to fix this, but not, but how do I, like, survive that eight hours in the office without, like, going insane and actually getting things done?" But what I've, what I've learned, and I have to argue with my audience a lot, is like, the mindset that you would use for like, "How do I manage this, like, weird, terrible, busy period at the beginning of COVID, where everything's moving online in a particular job, and I have 10 bosses yelling at me?" It doesn't translate to other things. It doesn't translate to all the other parts of your life. It's not a good way to go about almost anything else that's happening in your life. It is very artificial. I had this, this, actually, we agreed in the end.

• 35:25Cal Newport?

  This was, I had this conversation with Oliver Berkman about it, where I was basically, he was talking about his ideal way to sort of plan. And I think there's a lot of similarities with your book. And I was like, yeah, that's, that is right. And the stuff I'm talking about is the, like, some unfortunate reality of, like, particular jobs. And you want to get away from it as quickly as you can throughout your day. So I want to first give that disclaimer to my audience. Like, this is great, because I don't cover well. How do you deal with all of your life? And not just, how do I deal with my email inbox? Which is a much more boring.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  How do you deal with all of your life? But guess what? How do you deal with your inbox is essential to how you deal with your life. I mean, it is. Like, it's all, it's all connected. It's a lot harder to talk about how to deal with your whole life, because it's so big.

• 36:07Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  You know, like, the, the email problem is something that feels, okay, well, this is manageable. I can figure this out. I can focus my energy on this and solve this problem. That this is a huge problem in my work. And for a lot of people, it is. So it's, it's deeply valuable. But you're right, like, trying to, most of those approaches, yeah, they don't, you're right, they don't translate as well to, to the rest of life very easily, very seamlessly.

• 36:30Cal Newport?

  And I like, something that's interesting about the book is in the prepare leg of that base, the edge of that triangle that builds up into the pyramid.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:39Cal Newport?

  You have advice for systems, right? Like, when you're preparing, trying to figure out, like, what makes sense to do. You talk about, like, what's a good way to think about a to-do list, for example. And you have, like, a nice model there for, for something that's less strict than specific days. You talk about, like, a planning rhythm, like, how, you know, you're kind of planning out what you want to get done at different time scales. But the, the vibe is, these systems aren't the hard part. Like, yes, like, you want to, you need to write down what you need to do somewhere, so you don't have to keep it, track of it in your head. Yeah, you need to think ahead. Someone's coming, and you want to know that, like, I need to start preparing a week in advance, or whatever. But it's de-centered. In your book, it's actually the psychology is what's more important. The the systems are kind of the easy part.

• 37:23Cal Newport?

  Like, yeah, yeah, be organized and like make some reasonable decisions. But you have to adjust and you have to notice and you can't fall away. The adjustment is a fantastic point. I mean, I often talk about fairy tale planning. It's like when we're sitting down and trying to plan our day or our week, we write like a fairy tale about.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  We do.

• 37:39Cal Newport?

  In theory, if you were taking Felix Felicidus or whatever the potion is from Harry Potter and the Half-Life Prince, I definitely don't have three boys who read that book recently. In the perfect day, like we often plan like that, wouldn't it be great?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:52Cal Newport?

  If I was able to get like three hours of writing in plus this plus this workout. But during the workout, I'm going to do my my conference scheduling for my kids on the Peloton bike. And then like as I move from and you you've laid out this day and then you fall in love with the what a great fairy tale. Like, I'm really comforted by the idea of a world in which all of this works out like this. And you feel great about that fairy tale world you built. And then like 12 minutes into that day, of course, the Peloton bike is on fire. And, you know, you've missed your kid has to come home sick or whatever. And and you're like, oh, this wasn't a realistic plan. It was a fairy tale plan. So that ability that like, yeah, adjustments to whole game. It's not like a rough intention and then you start to you roll with it. It's like a I think of mission control in Apollo 13.

• 38:36Cal Newport?

  You're rolling with the oxygen tanks exploded like that's your skill. It's like rolling with and making reasonable decisions, not making a fairy tale come true.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that room was that room was full of problem solvers.

• 38:48Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  It wasn't full of planners. It was full of problem solvers. I say I say this in my work a lot. Learning to pivot is more important than learning to plan. I think we are better served as people in

• 39:05Speaker 01

  cultivating the skill or maybe just the comfort. Maybe it's not even a skill. Maybe for some of us, it's just like, I am not going to freak out because this fairy tale plan didn't work. Or even just a basic non fairy tale plan.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  I'm going to be okay that not everything is okay. Yeah. Like, I'm gonna be here. That's, that's what it is. That's the psychology of it is because we are required, our lives require us to pivot far more than they require us to plan. But we don't recognize that really because so much of what we have been taught, especially in the early 2000s, was it was all about preparation. Yeah. That was the whole thing. So it makes sense that people of, you know, this generation, so to speak, are like, well, what am I, what am I if I don't have my list ready to go? Like, if I don't know what my day is going to look like, if I don't have,

• 40:04Speaker 01

  you know, theme work days, if I don't, if everything doesn't fit into this category or bucket or whatever. And it makes me think of recently, I did an interview on another show that's hosted by two women. And one of them, she's like, I have, she held up her, she held up her planner and like she had post-it notes, she had lists everywhere, right? And then the other host, she said, I've never made a list in my life. And, and they said, what do we do? Like, how do we, how do we meld these? Like, what, what do we need to do to get to the middle? And I said, y'all, you don't have to make a middle. Like, do what works for you. You don't have to fall into this normative way of planning that we've been taught, because it really only works well for a small sliver of people who are

• 40:45Speaker 01

  naturally wired to do that. And so there's this, we have to give ourselves permission to be okay that the things fall apart 12 minutes in, that that's expected, that we really, that us expecting our plan to not work is not fatalistic, it's not even, it doesn't keep us from getting our stuff done. I just think it's realistic. Yeah. And we go, it's probably, it's probably not going to work. If it does, that's so rad. But at least to have a baseline to work from rather than nothing, or that it's so rigid.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  That it's not flexible, right? Because most of our lives are deeply flexible, especially a woman's life. If she's at home taking care of her kids and she's, you know, like, I have spoken to so many people over the last couple of years about this book. And the number of women especially, who are like, I feel so seen because, like 93% of the Time Management books are written by men. And 70 to 90% of them are read by women.

• 41:57Cal Newport?

  Interesting.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  And so we need a broader definition of what it means to not necessarily just plan or organize, but to really live. And these ideas of contentment and pivoting, that these things are valued at a very high level, above greatness, that we value those things more than we value the greatness. It doesn't mean we dismiss the greatness, but you're right. It's like they're de-centered. The greatness and the task fulfillment is de-centered. The humanity is in the center where I think it needs to be.

• 42:35Cal Newport?

  Well, I want to talk about the, the audience point because I think this was also a fascinating point about the genre in general. So, I mean, this book, though, as a broad audience, you're very specific in the book that you have women in mind in particular.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:48Cal Newport?

  It's an underserved, as you said, 93% of Time Management Productivity books are written by men. I probably wrote 25% of those myself.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  And they're all real good. I've read every single one of them, Cal.

• 42:59Cal Newport?

  But they're not, uh, but the, but the readership is not only split halfway, but even, as you said, 70%. Yeah. And I've come to realize this later in my career that they're, we, the people writing these books, we don't necessarily think how specific our voice is. Because there's really only been two major, there's been two dominant voices as far as I can tell in Time Management Productivity. We have the corporate voice, which was like the dominant voice from like Stephen Covey on through the 90s, which was very much to like, this comes out of helping people in like a large company, like manage and be a manager. This goes all the way back, right? And then we Got the kind of the wave that I was a part of, which I think of as like, I don't know,

• 43:39Cal Newport?

  the blogging bro voice. This was like the more entrepreneurial coming out of like new media online spaces, coming out of like the blog revolution in the 2000s. And there's like Tim Ferriss and there's me, et cetera, whatever. Those are two very, those are perfectly fine voices. Like they're speaking to particular audiences, but they're very specific. And I learned this one because, you know, some of my books have sold enough copy now as I hear from a lot of people. And man, I learned quick. The way I think and talk about things is not universal. And it took me a while to understand this because I'd be like, I don't understand these complaints. Like, I'm very engineering and logical. Like, is this not, I am delivering information that is like an optimal way of thinking about how the brain functions. And

• 44:21Cal Newport?

  so now I've really come to appreciate this idea that there needs to be many different flavors of talking about these issues. So talk about, so with women audiences in particular, this has been very ill served. So in what ways, like, what is it, what is it that you're noticing was missing that you're able to fill in?

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, I think the, an important word here is that what we have been given is just incomplete. None of it's wrong. You know, I mean, there are definitely things that I don't align with, that I don't, I'm like, ah, I don't really want to live my life that way. But it's not that it's like fundamentally wrong. It's just, we all get to choose, right? But the, the advice has been incomplete, especially for women. And this is, this is a pretty broad, this is a pretty broad thing, but we live, we live in a patriarchal society. It was built for men by men. And women have not had a whole lot of time where their voice has been loud enough

• 45:20Speaker 01

  for the, the changes and adjustments that they are, that we are wanting on a, on a cultural level, on a systemic level. There's just not been a lot of time where those things are now so part of the culture that we can feel it. Like, I still feel.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  I still feel like more is expected of me than is expected of my husband. Like, women are not allowed to be mediocre. We can't be mediocre mothers, mediocre spouses or partners. We can't be mediocre to our jobs. Like, we have to be excellent at everything. Dudes can be mediocre in places and they don't really get a lot of flack for it. Yeah. And so when you are in a position where you are holding almost... It's a generality here, but it's a generality for a reason. It is something that is very true for a lot of women. Women are expected to hold more than their male counterparts are in the home and in work.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  And we're the ones probably getting the Christmas gifts and figuring out like the logistics of getting the kid their thing for this, you know, field trip that they're doing. And there's just all of these invisible pieces that are floating around all the time. My husband doesn't know the names of my kid's friends' parents. He doesn't have their numbers. I do. Yeah. Right? Because I'm the one who's home. I work from home. He doesn't. And so it makes sense that I would have them, but also it's too accepted that women are holding so much more, but women are also not given as much support to do those things. And one of the ways that that shows up is in the books that are available to women, that they are written not with their own life experience in mind.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  And we're also not paying attention to, like, you can read the plan and be a dude. I don't come after you. Like, it's, I don't come after you hard, because I think that this is actually a way of viewing our lives that is attractive to a lot of people, men and women. Because we, a lot of us are like, man, trying to be great at everything really is exhausting. Let's find a, let's find a new paradigm. So it's not, it's not exclusively for women. But there is also, there's a, there's a chapter in the book about periods. Because, listen, if you're a lady and your energy is changing, if you're in your 40s and you're going through perimenopause right now and you have a part-time job of having to eat protein now, it's a whole thing that dudes just don't understand.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  And they're, it's okay that they don't, but we need wider resources for the lived experience and the cultural pressures and the relational expectations and all of these things that women hold. And so if you say... Yeah, you need to prioritize getting eight to 10 hours of sleep every night. And I'm like, whoo, are you, my kid, my kid wakes me up in the middle of the night. What are you talking about? That's not a thing. Like, they're just, it, it feels unrealistic. But what, this is the last thing I'll say about this, because I can get a little heated because I care so much about women having their, their, their lives honored in this way.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  But what, what I think happens is that if all of the resources say, here's how it's done, and a woman cannot do it, she thinks she's the problem. It's not the system. It's not that that book's not for me, or this part or this part might work, but not the whole thing. Like, it becomes an identity thing. It's like, the problem is me. And so, the, the very beginning of the plan is to show us all, the problem is not you. The problem is not you. The problem is that this industry of time management and productivity is built on a lens and a, and a centering of greatness and optimization and leveling up. It has been historically.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  It is starting to shift, which I am so glad that we're part of that. But if you are, all you're hearing is, be great, do great, it's possible, see, everyone else is doing it, and you're just over here struggling day to day, and you're like, I can't even take a nap. Like, what are you talking about? It's, it feels really devastating on like a soul level. And because we think the problem is us, and the problem is not you. It's not you.

• 49:52Cal Newport?

  Well, I think it's much needed. I, I think, my, my impression of male centric, I imagine productivity is that it's sort of a psychological vacuum. So like, there's, there's very little psychological reality in it because it's men are more simplistic about it. It's all kind of optional. Like, oh, wouldn't it be cool? It'd be cool to get in really good shape. But like, I don't, I'm also, if that's not me and I've got the, the belly and the, that's fine, like a high five, like you do, you like, you don't feel, it all feels optional. It might be really cool to get super organized and make my, my web business, like take over whatever. It would be cool to pursue that, but like, I don't care if I don't.

• 50:36Cal Newport?

  And like, you know, no one's going to judge me if I don't. And so there's a lack of, a lack of psychological language, I would say. So, I mean, I, I can imagine there's multiple groups that we need specialization in this topic.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:51Cal Newport?

  Because, I mean, everyone has to deal with the issue of just life, organizing life, figuring out what to do or what not to do, how to, you know, make sure the electric bill gets paid or figure out. And there's so many different, relevant ways of receiving that. So I really love this idea. And this is the obvious big missing one because it's half the population. So like, let's start with women. This is half the population and the majority of actually the readers of these books.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:17Cal Newport?

  But you could imagine other, age stratified is something I've been thinking about recently.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 51:24Cal Newport?

  If you're 24, maybe more of like this, the more like online, you know, I don't know, get after it, like whatever, like actually maybe that's like keeping you out of trouble. And maybe that's good. When you're in your twenties, you have all this time and you're, you're laying a base of whatever that'll be, so then you can like, as you have kids and you have no time, you can, you'll be okay or something, I don't know, maybe that's better. I hear a lot from people who are nearing retirement as another group and like, well, wait, I'm thinking about things completely differently. Like, how do I? So I love this movement and I, and I love what you're doing with it. So I'm, and you say the response has been strong. I'm not surprised that you're.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  It has been.

• 51:58Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has been. It's definitely been stronger from women than from men. I, I've, most of the rooms I speak to are majority women, but I spoke at a conference a few weeks ago and it was, it was half and half. And it was, it was really interesting that I had to. I had to kind of get the guys on board a little bit because it was a room full of entrepreneurs. They were very successful people. Again, their greatness is honored. And that's not bad. Like, that's morally neutral, right? It's a great thing. But yeah, the life experience, this psychological language. You're right. It's not something that we're hearing enough across the board.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Women are hearing it and they're resonating with it very quickly because they're like, oh, I know that's my life. I see that. But I want, it's why I'm so grateful that you even asked me to be on your show. Because this is not a message for women. This is a message for all people. Like, it makes, I told the men in this room, I said, you might not align with this. You might not, this might not be how you want to see your own life. But I guarantee that there are people on your team, it's how they want to see theirs. And so it makes you a better leader for you to understand and widen the perspectives of the people that you work with, that not everybody wants to be accessible 24 hours a day.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  They don't want that kind of job. They don't want that kind of, the hustle and the greatness that they may, that you think that they aspire to, they actually don't. And so let's honor people's humanity more than you prize their productivity. Let's start there and see them in that. And so it's a really important message for all of us to just be exposed to. It's exposure therapy right now. Like, I just want, I just want more people and men to hear that women, we feel like we're whining. That we're like, it's just so hard to take care of the kids and to do the thing, you know, da, da, da.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Because it's not your lived experience. It's very easy to say, well, maybe they just need to figure out a different system. You know, we are all under the umbrella of thinking, well, maybe you just need a different system. Rather than recognizing that the system could be broken in some ways.

• 54:16Cal Newport?

  You're in a different system.

• 54:17Speaker 01

  We're in a different system. We're swimming in different water. Yeah.

• 54:20Cal Newport?

  Yeah. Well, look, I found, as a man reading it, two different ways that I found it really useful, right? So one was, as you were just talking about, being able to better understand. Other people, especially women's experience. And two, just a straight up advice I found really useful because there is not a lot of advice out there in that space that says, okay, when you're, when you're not just focusing exclusively on greatness on a particular goal is like everything, how do you structure your life? Like, what do you do? That is a huge void. I mean, just speaking more like, you know, across all audiences, that's a big void that there now is starting to be more of these sort of humanistic productivity books that are, that are coming at it. But it's, it is a new thing.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  It is.

• 55:05Cal Newport?

  And it is a huge void for when you're stepping away from, I'm just all in on like crushing my 10x business.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:14Cal Newport?

  What do you step into? And I think for a lot of people, a lot of men, when they step, when they, there's not that they even step out of it, they just, it's not going well for them. It's too easy to fall into various addictions, for example, to just get lost, be it in substances or be it in, you know, digital distraction or just anger and like it's, it's difficult to, how do you structure an integrated life? And, and that space, I think is a, is a critical space. And so I loved it. Yeah. The period chapter was a little less relevant to me.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Sure. But if you are, if you are around or live with a woman who has a menstrual cycle, it's actually, it makes you compassionate.

• 55:52Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Like my, I call my whole thing compassionate time management. I want us to be more compassionate towards ourselves and towards other people.

• 56:00Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  However, they choose to run their lives and spend their time, we all get to choose, but we just haven't had tools that align with this very different choice of contentment and integration versus the future and greatness and all of that. We needed a new lens and that lens is being expanded by a lot of people right now and it really is a beautiful thing.

• 56:24Cal Newport?

  I give our generation credit for that. Can we, can we take credit for this, right? Can't we, can we millennials take, take credit for? I mean, I feel like we are the generation who figures these things out. I had this whole gloss before that like we were the generation that was raised on follow your passion.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 56:40Cal Newport?

  And then went through the financial crises, nine 11, these various things and realized like, wait a second, your job's not going to be the source of all of your meaning in life. And then we were the ones who got really interested in the 2000s in lifestyle design and life hacking and trying to figure out like, well, how do we, how do we like rebuild things? And we're very self reflective in that way. So I think it makes sense that our generation is starting to free time management productivity, I guess, from the Stephen Covey generation.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  I know, I think so. We're like curious problem solvers.

• 57:13Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Like on a, on a, on a very soulful human level. Like, okay, let's, I wanna, I think it has, there has to be something to that of not growing up with technology at your fingertips either, you know, like being skeptical of it. Like I was taught to like, don't trust Wikipedia.

• 57:30Cal Newport?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Anybody. All those things like, but I agree with you. I think there's a, we can make jokes about it, but it is really fulfilling to see this wave happening where people feel lighter about their own lives in a way they haven't before.

• 57:48Cal Newport?

  I think.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  It's really special.

• 57:49Cal Newport?

  Our generation having kids changed things.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 57:52Cal Newport?

  Like I, I say this has like been my big revelation was when my three boys all got to basically elementary school age, there was this huge shift where it was, oh, we need every minute of that time possible, which felt very different than before, whereas more sort of survival mode, all hands on deck. Is this kid like physically and safely being taken from here to here and has like food or whatever, you know?

• 58:17Speaker 01

  It's all logistics. For a while, it's just logistics.

• 58:19Cal Newport?

  It's logistics. And then that very much, I was like, three boys, who wants to spend as much time with that as possible. And it completely changes the way you think about, for example, work. You're like, okay, well, so like, how does work serve to help set up a lifestyle that has like as much time as possible for this? Cause there's like an eight year window or something like that where that's really important. I mean, I think a lot of this, at least for me, is parenthood has, has been a big driver of these, these evolutions.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:42Cal Newport?

  These evolutions of productivity thinking and.

• 58:46Cal Newport?

  We hit various limits as we, you know, as we get to certain ages, as we get into our 40s. It's like, okay, I kind of am as far as I'm going to be able to go in this pursuit or that pursuit. And it turns out, I'm not going to play professional baseball. Okay, I'm finally able to say like, that ship has sailed. Like, this is how successful of a person I'm going to be in my job. And I'm, it's good, but I, there's, I don't see there being a big jump after this. There's, there's a big sort of shift, like, okay, so how do we organize life? It just seems like the right conversation to be having right now.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  I agree. I agree. Yeah.

• 59:18Cal Newport?

  And your book does it beautifully.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you. It means, it means the world that you read it and are, yeah, talking about it. And I'm just, I'm excited. I sometimes call myself Pollyanna with a clipboard. I'm so idealistic and I'm like, everything, you guys, we can make this world so beautiful. And here's the list of how to do it. I just feel really excited about this message getting, getting spread out there that people start to feel like themselves in their own lives, rather than machines and something of their own manufacturing. That's not the way any of us want to live. So thanks for giving it a platform.

• 59:58Cal Newport?

  Of course. Well, speaking of platforms, when I have a minute left here, you have a sort of well-known, extensive platform online. Maybe, can you help explain for my listeners how to get all things Kendra?

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, all things Kendra is at the lazygeniuscollective.com. I have a podcast, the Lazy Genius Podcast, comes out every Monday. We're coming up on 400 episodes. So that's, we've been doing this a long time. And yeah, The Plan is my third book. The first two, The Lazy Genius Way and The Lazy Genius Kitchen are, you know, kind of foundational books I reference a lot in the episodes. But everything is meant to help you name what matters to you and feel permission to live your life in a way that makes you feel like a person.

• 1:00:40Cal Newport?

  Okay. So go to that website, go to that podcast. You have a great newsletter, big Instagram presence as well.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:47Cal Newport?

  Or so I hear.

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  It's like, it's big-ish and I'm not there very often to make it bigger because I just choose to be lazy about Instagram. And that's okay.

• 1:00:55Cal Newport?

  I like it. Yeah. That I, that I commiserate with.

• 1:01:00Cal Newport?

  All right, Kendra. Well, always a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for helping to share the word. The book is The Plan. Check out The Lazy Genius Collective as well to find out more. And thanks for coming on.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Thanks, Cal.

• 1:01:11Cal Newport?

  All right. So that was my interview with Kendra Adachi, brought to you by Defender, a vehicle designed for those seeking adventure in a distracted world. So thank you Defender for sponsoring today's interview. Well, I really liked that discussion. We covered a lot of ground. There's one point in particular that I want to underscore here. I really liked, early on in the interview, where Kendra set up this dichotomy, which she says is very common in the communities and spaces where she often exists. And she says there's often this dichotomy, especially among women in productivity discourse, where you have two choices.

• 1:01:48Cal Newport?

  You can be the super achiever. You're eating your, whatever they ask for you to do now, 400 grams of protein an hour while working out two hours a day at the gym and crushing it with your Instagram photos and working 50 hours a day and all this sort of craziness. Or you have to be, and I believe her term was something like, have the wild hair energy, the messy hair energy, which is you have to lean into, your only other option is to lean into, oh, my God, look how messy my life is. And like, my act isn't together. And, you know, this is just, this is just how it is. It's like, I'm, everything is completely chaotic. And she said, it doesn't have to be either of those things. Neither of those are very good options.

• 1:02:31Cal Newport?

  But there's an option in the middle, and I think we often forget this option, because that first option, the sort of super achiever option, for all of us, when it becomes unattainable, we know we need to do something different. But if our only other option is just let everything go to chaos, that's just as bad. So I think of compassionate time management as one way of describing and approach that space in between. Right. It's a way of saying, yeah, you gotta care about things. You need a plan, you need a to-do list. You need to look ahead of what's coming up. You need to make decisions and pivot when something doesn't work and make priority decisions about what should I do instead? And how are we going to pull this off? And if this kid's going to be homesick for school, there's a complicated logistical chain.

• 1:03:16Cal Newport?

  That makes the rescue of the Apollo 13 capsule seem somewhat simplistic by comparison. I gotta get on the ball. I gotta make this happen. You need to do those things, but also have compassion for yourself, not try to do too many of those things. Recognize that some seasons of life, it's just this is what's going on is is trying to keep up with details and other seasons of life. You have some freedom to actually push on something or the push harder on an optional project and that can shift over time and that's okay. And that things can go slower. I talked about this in my book, Slow Productivity, work at a natural pace. We don't know, looking back historically, when we see people who did great things, we don't know how long it took them. If they took twice as long or half as long, we wouldn't know the difference. We would just say that was a cool book you wrote.

• 1:03:57Cal Newport?

  The cool impact you had. So be able to let things take more time, to be lazy about more things, you can be a genius on other. To not have to be the very best at X, Y, and Z, but to be good at something that matters on your own terms and that's good enough. That middle space between the messy hair energy and the super achiever is a space that we don't explore enough. I'm trying to explore that more with my deep life philosophy by saying the goal is a lifestyle, not a grand accomplishment, not a specific thing you can point to and impress other people by, not a particular number in your bank account, but a holistic view of your lifestyle opens up a lot of freedom for how you get there. And in particular, if a particular path you're taking is not working well, it's stressing you out, it's unsustainable, you can switch to something else.

• 1:04:41Cal Newport?

  You can give yourself that grace. So I really love this type of thinking. I have been using the term humanistic or humane productivity in some of my recent conversations. Kendra has this idea of compassionate time management. We have Oliver Berkman is in on this space too. He's kind of approaching this space from a related direction. I guess Oliver is saying something sort of similar to Kendra, at least in the part of like be organized enough to make progress on the thing that matters and not to let too many things fall through the cracks and then be okay with that. Not having to optimize everything else. Enough. You've got enough time towards something. You have your arms around enough things. I think Oliver, I think Kendra, I think me, we're all kind of surrounding similar topics. It's a great one.

• 1:05:24Cal Newport?

  So Kendra added a great voice to this conversation. And so I was glad to have her on the show. So thank you for that Kendra. We'll have another one of these episodes coming up pretty soon. You know, again, semi regular. I do these as I have interesting people to talk to. And there's a person I've wanted to talk to who agreed to talk to me recently. No spoilers. I'm going to try to get that up. You know, maybe a couple of weeks or so and we'll continue. If you have any feedback about the show, your best bet is to send that to producer Jesse at jesse@cal Newport.com. He makes sure I see what I need to see. Be back on Monday, of course, with our normal episode of the show. Until then, stay deep.