SYSK TRENDING - Understanding Body Language

You are constantly sending signals without saying a word—and so is everyone around you. The way someone sits, moves their hands, looks at you, or suddenly changes their posture can offer clues about what they’re thinking and feeling. But reading body language correctly is more complicated than simply assuming crossed arms mean someone is defensive. Scott Rouse is a behavior analyst and body language expert who holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training and has trained alongside the FBI, Secret Service, U. S. Military Intelligence, and Department of Defense. In this episode, he explains what body language and other forms of nonverbal communication can really tell you about another person—and what they can’t. Listen as Scott reveals the signals worth paying attention to, how to spot changes in someone’s behavior that may be significant, and why context is so important when interpreting gestures and expressions. He also explains how your own body language affects the way people perceive you—and how small changes can help you project greater confidence, credibility, and ease. Scott has a fascinating YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/ScottRouse3) where he analyzes body language and behavior. He is also the author of Understanding Body Language: How to Decode Nonverbal Communication in Life, Love, and Work (https://amzn.to/2XAXIid). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:23Mike Carruthers?

  What if you could tell what someone else was really thinking, even when their words say something completely different? Are they interested in you, uncomfortable, hiding something, maybe even lying? We're all constantly broadcasting information through our face, our hands, our posture, and even the way we move. The problem is, most of us are pretty bad at reading those signals, and some of what we think we know about body language is simply wrong. That's why today's SYSK trending topic is Understanding Body Language. My guest is Scott Rouse, a body language expert and behavior analyst.

• 2:03Mike Carruthers?

  And he's going to reveal the subtle clues people give off, what they really mean, and how learning to spot them can give you a fascinating new way to read the people around you. It's an enlightening conversation, and we'll get to it right after this. A big thank you to today's sponsor, Vinted. I think most of us have what I call "someday clothes." "I'll wear that someday." "That'll fit better someday." "Someday, I'll have a place to wear that." Meanwhile, it's been hanging in the closet for three years. Vinted offers another possibility: Sell It. Every day, people can sell clothes they're no longer wearing and make some extra money.

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• 3:28Mike Carruthers?

  Download the Vinted app for free and start listing with no seller fees, so you keep everything you earn. Is body language really a useful tool in determining what people are thinking, or telling if someone is lying? Can a person's physical movements, or how they hold their body, really telegraph what's going on in their head? Maybe, but it isn't as simple as if someone crosses their arms, that means they're bored, or closed off, or if someone refuses to look you in the eye, it means they're lying. It's more complicated than that, according to Scott Rouse.

• 4:10Mike Carruthers?

  Scott is a behavior analyst and body language expert who holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training. And he is trained alongside the FBI, the Secret Service, and US military intelligence. He has a really interesting YouTube channel, and he is author of a book called Understanding Body Language: How to Decode Nonverbal Communication in Life, Love, and Work. Hi, Scott, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Hey, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

• 4:40Mike Carruthers?

  So I think everybody's heard those things about body language, that, you know, if someone is talking, and they look up and to the left, that that means something, or, like I said, if they cross their arms, they're closed off, which, from what I've heard and read, isn't necessarily true, that you can't make general assumptions based on things like that. And if you can't make assumptions like that, then what is body language good for?

• 5:07Speaker 01

  All it does is give you a pretty good idea of what that person is thinking and what they might do next. That's basically what you're looking at. And as far as the myths go, those are two you just nailed, two of the big ones, like crossing your arms, it means you're not listening, or you're not into what that person has to say, or you're closed off. It can mean that sometimes, but sometimes it means you're cold, sometimes it means that's more comfortable. And the whole looking up and up into the left and all that, that's, there's nothing there. People do, a lot of times, they'll look down to the right for emotional things, they'll look at a specific place when they're thinking about sounds, or recalling a sound. But no, but we all don't go to the same places each time. You cannot count on that every time.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a dangerous trap to step into.

• 5:54Mike Carruthers?

  There is this belief, though, I think many people have, I've heard it all my life, that much of what people communicate is nonverbal, that when you're listening to someone talk, you're watching them, that a portion of what you take from them is the words they say, a portion is, you know, how they say it, and another portion is, you know, how they hold themselves. So what about that?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  There's a guy named Professor Morabian, and you may have heard the thing he came up with called the rule that everybody uses, called the 73855 Rule of Communication. And that says that communication is 7% the words we use, 38% the tone of voice we use, and then the rest of the 55%, the rest of it is body language, that's how we communicate. And I heard that back in the 80s, and I, so I called him up. I'm the worst at calling people up and saying, "Hey, tell me about this." So I called him up, said, "Listen, I've been, been reading this, these, about these studies you did, what, what's going on here? This doesn't sound right to me." And he said, "Listen, it's not right. Somebody's taken the information I've, these studies I've done, and they've put two of them together. And somehow, they've come up with this 73855 rule that has nothing to do with what I'm

• 7:08Speaker 01

  talking about. And if you get a chance, you tell everybody you know, or you talk to about this, that, that I don't believe this, and my name is always attributed to the person that came up with that." I did a whole TEDx talk on that.

• 7:21Mike Carruthers?

  So what does body language tell us? What is it that we can decipher or not decipher? What specifically does it do?

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Well, in my job as an interrogator, I use it in a tactful sense, where I will, I'll ask questions I know the answers to, and I'll see how that person reacts to those questions that, that I know they know the answers to. And then I'll have questions that I know they don't know the answers to, like questions I'll, about places I would make up. As I'm talking to them, and we're getting ready to get started, I like spend 10 or 15 minutes just talking to them, and you get what's called a baseline, when they're not nervous, they're not being put on the spot. And you see that, you remember all the things, how they acted when you asked them questions that you know they knew the answer to, and they answered correctly, and the ones you knew they didn't know the answer to. And you, you keep that in mind as a baseline for the way they behaved.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Then when you get to the point where you're talking about what they're supposedly, what they've supposedly done, what they're suspected of doing, as you speak with them, then you can see how their body language changes. They may do things to, to guard themselves, they may bring their, their arms in closer to their chest, for example. And that's what your brain does when it feels threatened, it'll, it starts guarding your lungs, and your heart, and your stomach. Or they may be using what are called adapters. And adapters are the things, these little repetitive movements people make, that get rid of that built-up stress, tension, or energy from the questioning, as they're trying, as they're thinking, as they're, as they begin to worry about something, as stress builds, for example, they may start shaking their foot on, you know, jigging their foot

• 8:56Speaker 01

  on the ground, or they may start rubbing their arm, or their hands, or they may just a little bit start biting the side of their mouth. Those are the things that, that, when you see those, these repetitive, pacifying behaviors, those let you know that person is under stress. It doesn't mean they're lying, it doesn't mean they're telling the truth, it just means there's an issue there. There are no absolutes in body language, just because someone scratches their nose, it doesn't mean they're, they're lying, and it doesn't mean they're telling the truth. Most of the time, their nose itches. I've trained federal judges who thought, if you look up and to the left, you're not telling the truth. And we all know from studies now, that's not true at all, not even a little bit.

• 9:35Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I understand, and I've heard from other people, that body language is a useful tool by the police, and in interrogations, and perhaps in court. But most of the time, I'm not with the police, or in court, or being interrogated. What about in just kind of everyday life? I think a lot of people, for example, believe that you can tell a lot about someone's truthfulness by their eye contact.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, most people are under the impression that liars, when you ask them a question, that when they lie, they break eye contact. That's the last thing they're gonna do. Because what their brain wants to do is look at you and make sure you believe them. Because you're gonna make a face like, "What?" Or you may look like you don't believe them, and they wanna add what are called qualifiers to that answer, to make them, their answer more believable to you.

• 10:28Mike Carruthers?

  You're right. Certainly, most people think that, you know, if you're lying, you can't look me in the eye, and that's what that, I guess where that comes from. But you're saying that that's, well, it does seem that people, when they're lying, maybe don't look you in the eye when they're talking. Maybe they look you in the eye when they're looking to see how you react to what they said.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Right. They'll look, and they want to see how you look. Their brain wants to see how you're, what your reaction is to their answer, so that's, because they may want to add qualifiers to it. So their answer will sound more believable. So, and they won't blink a lot either. The blink rate goes really down when that happens, because their brain is trying to keep an eye on you.

• 11:07Mike Carruthers?

  But couldn't it just be that the person cares about how you react to what they said? It's not that they're lying, they just really wanna get a sense of if we're on the same page.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Of course. So that's why you wanna know what answer, what questions to ask next. If you and I were to look at a video of somebody who, if they're lying or telling the truth, and they were asked a question, and they gave the answer, the odds of you getting that are 50/50. The odds of me getting it are 60/40. I'm not, I wouldn't be much better than you. But the key here is knowing what questions to answer, to ask next, and get those reactions. So you start looking for, for not just the one reaction you can't tell, you have to look for several, and then you start putting those reactions over into a little pile that says, "This person may not be telling the truth."

• 11:53Mike Carruthers?

  And so what, what do you, how do you develop that series of questions? What, what comes next when, after you've asked, "Does anybody know where this thing is?"

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Well, let's, for example, if I go into a bank, and I'm asked to find the person who's embezzling there, and they say, "It could be one of these seven to 10 people." Well, I'll get each one of them by themselves, and I'll ask them a few questions. And the ones that react, like we talked earlier, if they don't blink a whole lot, and they look right at me, their answers are really, they go overboard explaining, then if the answer is no, it should be no. And if they say, "No, because of this," and they add all this stuff to it, then that's just, that just goes in the little pile of, of, "They may have done this." So I keep asking questions to see if I keep getting those reactions from that person. And then I get rid of the two, or three, or four, or five, that answered very quickly,

• 12:46Speaker 01

  and, and I didn't get the feeling they were being dishonest, and whittle it down to the, to the two, three, or four, that I think might have been the person that did it. Then very quickly, you can get through those, because your questions get a little more pointed.

• 13:00Mike Carruthers?

  What else can you tell about, if anything, about eye contact? Whether people break it, or whether they overdo it? Is, is there any other telltale signs there?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Well, it's, it's, eye contact is, is really important, because that's, you're looking right at the person, they're looking at you. You know, they're, they're close, and you're looking at them face to face. And the person wants to look like they're telling you the truth. So there, that's one of the reasons they don't look away, because they know you know, or they know you think people break eye contact when they're not telling you the truth. So one of the things you wanna look for in that instance, is, as you first start speaking with them, watch their, their blink rate. Keep an eye on them, see how, see if they're blinking a whole lot. That denotes nervousness. And if their blink rate doesn't go up really high, you can, you may be able to say, "Okay, that person probably is probably telling me the truth."

• 13:52Speaker 01

  But if you're asking two or three people at the same time, see if their arms move, see if, if, see if they go into a protective mode. They may not cross their arms all the way, but they may turn sideways just a little bit. And when they answer your question, a lot of times, you'll hear what are called fading facts. As they give you an answer, they get quieter and quieter and quieter, as the answer goes along. Not that much, but you'll notice that it gets quieter as they go along. And they may back up just, they lean back just a little bit. It's very subtle, but those are the, some of the things you, you wanna pay attention to when you first ask a question.

• 14:29Mike Carruthers?

  Body language and nonverbal communication is what we're talking about today, and my guest is Scott Rouse. The name of his book is Understanding Body Language: How to Decode Nonverbal Communication in Life, Love, and Work.

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• 16:37Mike Carruthers?

  So Scott, could we talk about body language, not so much as it relates to lying? Because, you know, that's certainly important, but there's, isn't there a lot more to this in terms of like, what you can tell about whether a person likes you, or wants to talk to you, or, aren't there a lot of other things body language says besides, "I'm lying," or "I'm not lying"?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Let's talk about the eyebrows out of the gate, because there's something that everyone does, you do it too, I do it, everybody does. It's called the eyebrow flash. When you see someone you know from across the room, and you haven't seen them in a while, or you're at the mall, or you're at a restaurant, and you see them, you do a quick eyebrow flash. Your eyebrows go up and back down, and they will do it too, if they know you. So it's sort of a recognition thing, you'll see that. So if you look at someone, and their eyebrows go up, think, "Oh no, I should know that person, but I can't remember who they are. Oh no, here they come." So it's sort of get, you can sort of get prepped for that. And you can do that to people you don't know, just to watch them do it, if you wanted to.

• 17:35Mike Carruthers?

  Talk about this idea I've heard about mirroring, that if you want to connect with somebody, you mirror the gestures and the things they're doing.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Matching and mirroring is when you match the way someone sounds, the vernacular they're using, and then you mirror the way they look, what they're doing as well. If you've ever been sitting with someone, you may cross your leg toward them, you may put your arm on the side, on the, on the arm of the chair, and you may put your hand on your, on your left knee. And after a few minutes, you'll notice maybe they're doing the same thing. People who really like each other, people who get along great, they will match, or they will mirror each other's body language, what they're, how the other person looks. If you're standing, talking to someone, and you have both hands on your hips, in a couple of minutes, they may have their hands on their hips as well. And if you meet someone for the first time, and as you speak with them, they'll feel more comfortable.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Their brain sees you almost as a reflection of themselves, and it makes them more comfortable. Because that's the way people act when they like each other, is they start mirroring each other.

• 18:39Mike Carruthers?

  So knowing that, can you then deliberately, even artificially mirror somebody to create a connection that might not otherwise get created?

• 18:51Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, I do that all the time, especially in interrogation situation when they start to calm down some and you want to give them the impression that you're there to help them, which you are, you're there to find out what happened. Or if you're in a business situation, you're meeting someone for the first time, it's a very powerful tool. Another powerful tool is when you match the way they sound with the words they're saying. Most people will fall under three categories. You've got visual, audio, and then kinesthetic. Visual people will talk, they'll say things like, "Oh, I see what you're saying. That looks good to me." They'll do the way things look. And the audio person, auditory person will say, "That sounds good. Oh, I hear you."

• 19:33Speaker 01

  They'll use terms that are, that deal with that, the kinesthetic persons say, "That feels good." Or, "He's a little bit rough around the edges, but I think things will smooth out as he grows older." If you listen long enough, you'll figure out which one of those categories the person falls under, and you start speaking in terms of seeing, hearing, or feeling as well. It could be emotional feeling, or the way something feels, a tactile feeling. So that'll, once you start matching and matching them with your vernacular, and then you start mirroring them physically, then it's when a bond starts being created when you first meet someone.

• 20:11Mike Carruthers?

  What about posture? It seems like when you see somebody slouching, or when you see someone standing erect with really good posture, that that's sending a message.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Posture's good. It shows you're paying, it indicates you're paying attention. If someone's all slouched as you're talking to them, they may look too relaxed. If you're giving them important information, if the alpha person, say the boss, or the person in charge is giving you information, you're slouched down, you just look like you don't care at that point. But if you straighten up and have good posture as they give you this information, especially if you were slouching before, that's the best thing. So as soon as they start talking, you straighten up a little bit. That lets them know you're listening, and gives them the impression that you're interested in what they have to say as well when you do that. If you're trying to give someone the impression you're listening, just tilt one of your ears toward them, your right ear, your left ear, toward them, whatever your good ear is, as

• 21:07Speaker 01

  you listen to them, and put your eyebrows up, and shake your head up and down a little bit. It works wonders. And then when you start talking, do the same thing. There are very subtle things you can use to help enhance the impression you're trying to get across to that person.

• 21:21Mike Carruthers?

  What else? What other nonverbal things have you observed or witnessed that seem to have a real impact with people?

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Well, there's something called, that I've coined, called the slow and tiny smile. If you see someone, and all of a sudden you have a really quick smile on your face, they see that as a smile, and it's fine. But what happens is if you start a slow smile when you see them, like it's dawning on you all this time you've spent with them, and you've had fun with them, they remind you of whatever, that's a different thing. Because they keep watching to see where that expression is going to go, so you hold their attention a little bit more. Very charismatic people are that way. They don't put on like, if you go to the Apple Store, and they go, "Hello, can I help you?", and that really quick, big smile comes on, that's the salesman smile. But if you put one on really slowly, as when you first see someone, that gives them the

• 22:11Speaker 01

  feeling that you know them, as well as those eyebrows, we talked about the eyebrow flash being up. From that person's perspective, there's an emotional connection there.

• 22:19Mike Carruthers?

  What about feet? I've heard, I've heard it said that, you know, if you watch a person's feet, if they're trying to escape a conversation, their feet will be pointing not at the person they're talking to, but where they want to go. Is that a fair conclusion?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. Yeah, you can, you'll see that as you speak with someone who may seem like they're, something may not be right as you're talking to them, they may be standing too straight, and they may be looking at you too strong. See where their feet are pointing. If they're pointing toward the door, and they're not just all the way over toward the door, they may be headed that way a little bit, that's what's on their mind. Let them go. Let them go, say, "Hey, man, it looks like you're in a hurry, we'll talk about this later." If you're standing in a group of people, say there's four people standing there, and one of them's a girl, or a woman, and one guy has his feet pointing toward that woman, that's the one he's focusing on, the person in the conversation he's focusing on the most. It's one of the last things people think about, is to look at someone's feet, where they are, where they're pointed, and what they're actually doing.

• 23:18Mike Carruthers?

  A lot of times, like on a date, for example, you're trying to read whether the other person is into you, like, are they really interested in what it is you have to say, and who you are? So what do you look for? What do you look for in determining if people like you?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Most of the things we've talked about let you know whether they're into you, quote unquote, or not. You'll see their feet would be, should be pointed toward you as you speak with them. They may have their hand a little, just a little bit further out than it would normally be, toward your space a little bit, getting in there. They'll be looking right at you, and most of the time their eyebrows will be up. Most of the time, when a guy sees a girl that they're sitting, and the girl starts talking to him, when the guy's eyebrows go up, if you're a woman, that shows that he's attracted to you. Another thing you want to look for is, they're called barriers, where the person, as you are sitting on the table, you may put your arm in front of you. It's not bad, it doesn't mean every time that the person's not into you, but it's

• 24:20Speaker 01

  one of the little barriers you want to get out of the way, continue to speak with them, and try to get them to stop that. And you do that by, you can put your arm on the table, and as you connect with them really big, then you take your arm off the table, and see if they're mirroring what you're doing. Because that's what you want, is get that person to start mirroring you.

• 24:38Mike Carruthers?

  Are there big gender differences in body language? Do men do things that women don't, and vice versa?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  There's one thing that women will do quite often that men don't do, and only because it's the length of their hair, I'm sure. And they'll pull their hair behind their ear, as the guy's talking to them. That would denote, it would indicate attraction, because at that point, they'll show their neck a little bit, and they're showing their ear and the side of their face, and their wrist as they do that. So that's two or three things that let you know that person is interested or attracted to you.

• 25:09Mike Carruthers?

  What's the one thing you want people to really take away from this discussion about body language?

• 25:15Speaker 01

  That there are no absolutes in body language. Just because someone scratches their nose, just because someone breaks eye contact with you, it doesn't mean they're lying, and it doesn't mean they're telling the truth. It depends on the situation that's going on around that, and what you're asking that person, what the conversation is. There are no absolutes. That's the most important thing to remember.

• 25:36Mike Carruthers?

  Great. Well, this is really interesting, and I like that you were able to explode some of the myths about body language that I've believed in the past, and I think a lot of people operate with, that just aren't true. My guest has been Scott Rouse. He is a behavior analyst and body language expert who holds multiple certificates in advanced interrogation training. He has a YouTube channel, and he's author of the book, Understanding Body Language: How to Decode Nonverbal Communication in Life, Love, and Work. And there's a link to his YouTube channel, and a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thank you, Scott.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Well, thank you very much. I really appreciate you having me on here. I'm really looking forward, I listen to your stuff all the time, so I'm really looking forward to hearing me, and you talking to me, as odd as that sounds. So thank you.

• 26:28Mike Carruthers?

  You're welcome. And that's today's SYSK Trending episode. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.