386: 18 Year Old Dies Months After 4 Hour Assault by Her Own Father | Justice for Makayla Settles

When Makayla Settles took her own life, the circumstances surrounding her death raised immediate red flags, including unanswered questions and behavior from those close to her that did not quite add up. Join Annie Elise and Dr Leslie Dobson as they break down the case, examine the psychological dynamics at play, and uncover the troubling inconsistencies that continue to leave this case unresolved.. If you’re new here, don’t forget to follow the show for weekly deep dives into the darkest true crime cases! To watch the video version of this episode, head over to youtube.com/@annieelise. .🔎Join Our True Crime Club & Get Exclusive Content & Perks..🎧 Need More to Binge? Listen to both of my weekly true crime series 10 to Life & Serialously with Annie Elise wherever you get your podcasts on the Annie Elise Channel!🍎 Apple Podcasts | Where you can also unlock access to 100+ and growing extra exclusive deep dives.💚 Spotify🔴 YouTube🎙️ All Other Platforms.📸 Follow Annie on Socials Instagram: @_annieeliseTikTok: @_annieeliseSubstack: @annieeliseFacebook: @10toLife.👗 Shop Annie’s Must-Haves! ShopMY: bit.ly/AnnieElise_ShopMy Amazon: bit.ly/AnnieElise_Amazon.🫵🏻 Get Involved or Recommend a CaseAbout Annie: www.annieelise.comFor Business Inquiries: [email protected]••••••••••••••••••🚨Disclaimers1️⃣ Some links may be affiliate links, they do not cost you anything, but I make a small percentage from the sale. Thank you so much for watching and supporting me. 2️⃣ Sources used to collect this information include various public news sites, interviews, court documents, FB groups dedicated to the case, and various news channel segments. When quoting statements made by others, they are strictly alleged until confirmed otherwise. Please remember my videos are my independent opinion and to always do your own research. 3️⃣ The views and opinions expressed in this video are personal and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any other agency, organization, employer, or company. Assumptions made in the analysis are not reflective of the position of any entity other than the creator(s). These views are subject to change, revision, and rethinking at any time and are not to be held in perpetuity. We make no representations as to the accuracy, completeness, correctness, suitability, or validity of any information on this video and will not be liable for any errors, omissions, or delays in this information or any losses, injuries, or damages arising from its display or use. All information is provided on an as-is basis. It is the reader’s responsibility to verify their own facts.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Oh, look. You just got added to a meeting about coordinating another meeting to prepare for the pre-meeting ahead of the follow-up meeting, which will, of course, require a recap meeting. And then, another meeting. Hit your booking point? Book with Southwest and enter airplane mode.

• 0:32Annie Elise?

  Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialously.

• 0:54Annie Elise?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back to an all-new episode of Serialously with me, Annie Elise. And today, we're going to be diving into a case that's happening right now. One that many of you have probably seen on your social media, whether on TikTok, on Instagram. You've seen people post about it, people calling for justice, people outraged. And so, what I wanted to do is take today as an opportunity to highlight this case, not only discuss everything involved and what's been going on, but also a very important call to action where so many of you can actually directly get involved. Because I know, once you hear this case, you are going to be just as irate and disgusted as I am. And so, for today's case,

• 1:38Annie Elise?

  I also am joined by Dr. Leslie Dobson, who I know is a familiar name and face to many of you. She's been on here in the past when we've done some deep dives into the Epstein files. She was on here about a year ago when we were talking about family vlogging and some of the dangers there. She's a forensic psychologist, and she has been covering this case very, very closely, speaking with family members, speaking with lawyers, and really getting into what the truth is and how this happened. So, welcome. Thanks for coming back, Dr. Leslie. Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming. I want...

• 2:12Speaker 02

  The world to be aware of this case.

• 2:14Annie Elise?

  I know. And so you first started talking about this case on social media. And for those who don't know, it is the Michaela Settles case. She is a young girl who moved from North Carolina to California, and I'm not going to get ahead of it. We're going to walk you through everything. But you first put this on TikTok. It blew up overnight. People could not believe what they were watching. I've seen your video too. I'm like, how is this even real? And now it's starting to take flight with a lot of people talking about it. But still, for some reason, at least at the time of this recording, not many mass media outlets have picked up this story, which is insane.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:47Annie Elise?

  And so frustrating. So why don't you walk us through, let's start at the very beginning.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:53Annie Elise?

  Who Michaela was, her age, when she moved, why she moved, and let's slowly start going through it.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Sure. So Michaela was 18, just turned 18, and she was living in North Carolina with her mom. I don't think her mom and dad were ever, her biological parents were ever married. But she wanted to live the California life. And her father was living in Moor Park, California. He works as an electrician. And she wanted to come over to Moor Park and go to Moor Park College. She had future dreams and plans.

• 3:26Annie Elise?

  Yeah, excited. Yeah, graduate from high school, move across the country to California, start your life as a young adult, go to school and live, you know, I guess I would say the dream, but I guess living in California isn't exactly the dream all the time. Yeah. Okay, so she moves to Moor Park.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  So she moves and it's July 2025 and within two days.

• 3:48Annie Elise?

  Two days of arriving to California.

• 3:50Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 3:51Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Allegedly experiences the most horrific sexual act by her biological father from 2:00 to 6:00 a.m. in the morning.

• 4:02Annie Elise?

  Four hours.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  For four hours.

• 4:04Annie Elise?

  Now, okay, and we need, we definitely need to talk about all of that because I think the details of this. And the aftermath is what's so upsetting. But what was the real, you've talked with Michaela's cousin, her mother, you've talked with so many people close to Michaela and involved in this investigation and case. What was Michaela's relationship like with her father prior to moving? Was he involved? Was he a good co-parent? Did they spend time together, talk to each other? What was that like?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  They had casual interactions where she would come out and visit for a while and then go back to North Carolina. But it doesn't sound to me like he was ever a primary caretaker.

• 4:41Annie Elise?

  And when she would return to North Carolina, did she ever raise any sort of red flags about his behavior or concerns that she had to her mother or to anybody else?

• 4:50Speaker 02

  No, and also she was a very youthful 18-year-old, as many are right now because of COVID and all of the setbacks we've had. So she was very youthful and you can see in her videos, she would dance, she called her mom mommy up until the day she lost her life. And so she, she didn't talk, she didn't, I don't even know that she would realize what was happening if negative things happened during these visits.

• 5:15Annie Elise?

  If he had been grooming or trying to feel things out or being inappropriate. She was so innocent that she looked at encounters as innocent or would have or could have.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's how her friends describe her and her family. And you'll see in the videos, she's, she looks very innocent and young.

• 5:31Annie Elise?

  Mm-hmm. So she moves here in July. She's with her dad, living with her biological father in Moore Park for two days.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 5:40Annie Elise?

  And then he violently sexually assaults her for four hours from 2:00 a.m. to 6:00 a.m.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  She told her mom this immediately.

• 5:50Annie Elise?

  She called her.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  She called her. Her mom was in town.

• 5:53Annie Elise?

  Her mom was in California. And, but not staying there, of course, because they weren't together.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 5:58Annie Elise?

  So did she call her at what, 6:00 a.m. right after? Did she wait?

• 6:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was around 6:30, I believe. And then immediately-

• 6:06Annie Elise?

  How did her mom say that she sounded when she called?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely horrified. Distraught. In her mom's words, she said, "Oh my God, he killed my daughter."

• 6:15Annie Elise?

  Oh my God.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  And she was still alive at that point.

• 6:18Annie Elise?

  And when, from what we know, before we keep going further, was this something where the father was?

• 6:27Annie Elise?

  Just infatuated with his daughter, where we've unfortunately seen cases like that, where he was a predator, a pedo, was he intoxicated? What was that, what was that moment, those four hours like from his mental state?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Uh, well, he engaged in text messages back and forth with the mother for a while after this.

• 6:44Annie Elise?

  After this all took place.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:45Annie Elise?

  Okay, so maybe that's where we start, we should rewind and start. So Michaela calls her mom immediately after this happens, just distraught and horrified and beside herself. And then what happens?

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Uh, they go to the hospital to get a formal rape kit done. Um, she can't even walk.

• 7:01Annie Elise?

  And did her father just let her leave the house? Or she ran out, or?

• 7:04Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 7:05Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  I don't know if she got, I think she got picked up, but I'm not sure.

• 7:10Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  But the mother gets to the uncle and-

• 7:15Annie Elise?

  Who's the father's brother?

• 7:16Speaker 02

  No, who is the mother's brother.

• 7:18Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  And he has to carry her into the hospital because she can't even walk.

• 7:24Annie Elise?

  Because that's how brutal this assault was.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:26Annie Elise?

  So she's going to the hospital with her family to get a sane exam.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:29Annie Elise?

  And because there was so much damage inflicted and it was so forceful, he had to carry her.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Right. And then once she's in the hospital gown, which you get, you take off everything, you're in a gown, they don't want to mess up any DNA. It's so, I mean, if you watch the recent episode of The Pit, they did one of these kits and they really, really-

• 7:50Annie Elise?

  It's very thorough.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  It's thorough and they did a really good job explaining it on the, on the fictional TV show.

• 7:55Annie Elise?

  It's good because I feel like you need to be informed and educated on that, especially, God forbid, if you're ever a victim of a situation like that. They are incredibly thorough to the point where it can be traumatizing, uncomfortable, and awful for a victim to have to then experience a second violation of sorts.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it takes hours. It takes hours.

• 8:15Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  So, um, what they determined was that she had been assaulted.

• 8:22Annie Elise?

  And you said they put her in the hospital gown?

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Put her in the hospital gown and it became saturated by blood.

• 8:28Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  And she's 98 pounds.

• 8:34Annie Elise?

  So they do the same exam. What's happening with the father at this point?

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Uh, they are also filing a police report and the police during around the same time arrest him.

• 8:46Annie Elise?

  Okay. And would you know what they exactly charged him with?

• 8:49Speaker 02

  Uh, initially, they charged him with mani- manipulating, I have it.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Um.

• 9:00Speaker 02

  Incest.

• 9:01Annie Elise?

  Oh, they charged him with incest?

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Uh, initially.

• 9:05Annie Elise?

  Initially, okay. And so the guys, while Dr. Leslie pulls this up, this was all happening right around the time when Michaela goes to the hospital, they're filing this police report. Simultaneously, he's being investigated, he's being arrested. We'll see what those initial charges were. And it appears as though it's at least taking a step in the right direction for receiving some sort of justice or accountability, not that that makes anything go away or makes it okay, obviously, but that people were believing her, they were seeing the evidence, and they were now going to hold this monster accountable and try to figure out what the hell happened. Because also too, who, we don't know, obviously, what the dynamic was like prior to her moving there.

• 9:49Annie Elise?

  We don't know if there were moments where she wasn't able to identify him potentially trying to groom her or being inappropriate, but this is a very stark difference from moving for two days and then something like this so violently happening.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:02Annie Elise?

  Okay, so it looks like you pulled up the charges.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Right, so initially arrested on a, let's see, three felony counts and one misdemeanor. So felony PC 285, which I believe is incest.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Let me see if I have it spelled out a little more clear.

• 10:23Annie Elise?

  I, if you have the, um, things, I can pull it up on my phone as well, the exact breakout.

• 10:32Annie Elise?

  But I know you have like so many screenshots and documents. So yeah, this is PC 285 is incest.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  Incest, okay. And then we have a felony count related to taking advantage of a position of trust. So let's start with incest. He pled not guilty. With taking advantage of a position of trust, he denied.

• 10:55Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 10:56Speaker 02

  Or the court denied. I'm not exactly sure. They may have just said, we're not moving forward with that. There was a felony of victimizing a vulnerable person, which was denied. So again, could be the court or him. And then a misdemeanor of alcohol to a minor, and he pled not guilty.

• 11:15Annie Elise?

  Okay. So at this point with those charges, and you tell me, because I know you obviously have been talking with her family. He allegedly supplied Michaela with alcohol. Then there was, she, there was some sort of exchange and assault on her from him. When they did the same exam, did they recover anything?

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:33Annie Elise?

  What did they recover?

• 11:35Speaker 02

  His semen.

• 11:36Annie Elise?

  What's inside of her?

• 11:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:37Annie Elise?

  So even though he's denying and pleading not guilty to the PC 285 charge, there is DNA evidence that was collected that would obviously prove that wrong completely. Because how else would that have gotten inside her body?

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Correct. And two things happened with that. One, the mother, he was denying it, saying, I can't believe you called the police on me in text messages. And the mother, these are all published text messages as well on social medias. She said, well, the DNA is back. And his response was, yeah, well, I'm sure she tells the truth about a lot of things.

• 12:19Annie Elise?

  Okay. So just, okay, hold the fuck on. So just so I'm understanding this correctly. They go and do the same exam. They file the police report. He then start, they charge him and arrest him. He then starts texting the biological mother, gaslighting her, being like, she lies about a bunch of stuff. I wouldn't do this. Why would you even accuse me of this? Like, what are you guys thinking? To which she responds like, well, they actually did the same cat and the DNA came back. And then he still continues to push the lie, saying, well, yeah, I bet she's not honest about a lot of things. Like, I'm sorry, you can't fake DNA inside semen that is in your body. Or you.

• 12:57Annie Elise?

  Like unlikely that

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:58Annie Elise?

  An eighteen year old girl would do that and have the knowledge of how to orchestrate that.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Right. And then he says, I was blackout drunk. But then he says, but she never screamed.

• 13:10Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Said no.

• 13:12Annie Elise?

  So he's trying to now argue they were both drunk, or he has he not said she was drunk? Just that he was blackout drunk, but we know he had the charge of giving a minor alcohol.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 13:22Annie Elise?

  And so then he's saying she didn't say no, and she didn't scream, therefore trying to imply what? That it was consensual?

• 13:30Speaker 02

  But then he remembers.

• 13:31Annie Elise?

  Right. So, oh, yeah. So you're blackout drunk, but you remember enough that she consented.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  So legally, as a forensic psychologist, that's an omission of guilt to me.

• 13:39Annie Elise?

  Yeah. Well, and, I mean, I'm just thinking, at, once it gets to trial, which hopefully it gets there and nothing happens, but in that moment, if this is all through text where he says, she didn't scream, I was blackout drunk, but she didn't scream, and she didn't say no, or whatever he had said, it's like, then that not only is alluding to that it was a consensual act, but right there with PC two eight five, you're also admitting there was incest because you're admitting the act happened, whether it was consensual or not.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:06Annie Elise?

  So, yeah, at from a side, from a forensic psychologist angle, what do you make of his behavior, his reaction, and what he's now trying, what in this moment he was trying to do?

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Darvo, right? Deny reverse victim, or I'm sorry, deny attacked, reverse victim. So he knows he is wrong, and now he wants to become the victim so that he doesn't look like he is guilty.

• 14:35Annie Elise?

  Hmm.

• 14:35Speaker 02

  And in one of the texts, he says to her, I'm now getting death threats every day. Fuck it. I'm so hurt. I will defend myself.

• 14:43Annie Elise?

  So now he's saying this, he, he's the scapegoat in this whole thing.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:47Annie Elise?

  That it didn't happen. So did he say at any point, Michaela wasn't even here at this house? Like, if he's gonna say it wasn't me, then who the fuck was it? Who was she with? Was she at your house? Was she not at your house? Did you have friends over? Like, ha, explain how this eighteen year old girl had to be carried into a hospital.

• 15:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:03Annie Elise?

  Was bloody all over her gown and had semen inside of her and is claiming it's you, but you're saying it's not. Then how did that happen?

• 15:10Speaker 02

  He, that is probably going to be the defense.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Right? They're gonna find these ways to get around it. And he starts to say, you know, you're to the mother, like, you're a loud mouth. The lawyers are gonna take care of it. She always told the truth, I'm sure, with three exclamation points.

• 15:30Annie Elise?

  So trying to make Michaela look as though she's the liar.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  And then the DNA is back and he writes, whatever, don't text me back.

• 15:38Annie Elise?

  During this, was he vocal anywhere else? He was still, this was after he was arrested, but let's talk about the bail situation.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:45Annie Elise?

  Because that is a point in this where, when I first heard that, I can't even tell you, I couldn't see straight. I was so

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:53Annie Elise?

  upset.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  And this is, this falls on the Ventura County Superior Court District Attorneys and the judge. They are at fault for this.

• 16:01Annie Elise?

  1,000%. So originally, they set his bail at what?

• 16:05Speaker 02

  A million dollars.

• 16:06Annie Elise?

  A million, which then he would need to post 100 grand. Then they reduced it.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  To 500.

• 16:12Annie Elise?

  Then they reduced it further.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  And he walked out at 25.

• 16:15Annie Elise?

  25 payment or 25 total?

• 16:17Speaker 02

  25 total.

• 16:18Annie Elise?

  So he only had to post $2,500?

• 16:21Speaker 02

  No, 25,000.

• 16:22Annie Elise?

  Oh, he did. Okay, so they post, they reduced it from what, 500 to 250 or whatever? Okay.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Something, yeah.

• 16:27Annie Elise?

  Something like that. Okay, because it's like the 3 to 10%, right? Something that you have to pay, depending.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  But they let him walk, who?

• 16:32Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Now, you know, when he shows up, if he shows up to the hearing, he's a flight risk. The whole world is aware of this.

• 16:40Annie Elise?

  Well, and not even the flight risk piece of it, but obviously, if he also had initial charges of, you know, taking advantage of a vulnerable minor and all of these things, you know, the position of trust and exploiting that, who's to say, with this young 18-year-old girl who's his daughter, that there's not going to be witness intimidation, that there's not going to be trying to silence her, or anything like that, because this is such a severe charge and situation?

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:07Annie Elise?

  So they let him walk. And this is when he starts texting the mother.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:11Annie Elise?

  Okay, so then, what happens then?

• 17:16Speaker 02

  So she immediately, well, when she is able to, because she was hospitalized for a while due to the injuries.

• 17:21Annie Elise?

  How long was Michaela in the hospital?

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Um, I, I don't know the exact date.

• 17:25Annie Elise?

  Okay, but a few days.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  I think over a few weeks.

• 17:30Annie Elise?

  Oh, over a few weeks?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then she returns back to North Carolina.

• 17:34Annie Elise?

  And, okay, I don't want to get overly graphic here, but if she's hospitalized for a few weeks, was it just internal injuries that they were? Was there any other sort of physical injuries?

• 17:46Speaker 02

  I don't know exactly.

• 17:48Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  Um, there was an autopsy done, but everything is, because it's an active criminal case, everything is.

• 17:53Annie Elise?

  What do you mean, there was an autopsy done?

• 17:56Speaker 02

  On her body.

• 17:57Annie Elise?

  Oh, well, okay, getting further ahead.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:59Annie Elise?

  Got it, got it, okay, sorry. Okay, I'm like, hold on, what are you talking about?

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 18:04Annie Elise?

  Okay, sorry, yes, we're jumping ahead a little bit, okay. So she's in the hospital for potentially weeks and then goes back to North Carolina.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:11Annie Elise?

  With her mother.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  And she is what you would assume a victim to be. She is acting impulsively, she's randomly happy, has energy, then dips into these major, major depressive moments. And no one really knew how to help her. But the problem is that she was 18, so her mom could not step in. And so they were trying to get her from North Carolina to navigate these police charges.

• 18:39Annie Elise?

  And what, was, Michaela just didn't want to participate, or?

• 18:42Speaker 02

  She couldn't, she psychologically couldn't.

• 18:45Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  It is utterly ridiculous that they wouldn't let the mother speak for her.

• 18:50Annie Elise?

  Yeah, given the situation.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Allegedly, a biological father rips you apart for four hours and then you're supposed to be talking to detectives and investigators and victim advocates? And you have the mentality of what, a 14, 15 year old?

• 19:05Annie Elise?

  Right, being treated as an adult, and, mhm.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:09Annie Elise?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  Extremely isolated, uh, life, just innocent, an innocent little girl.

• 19:15Annie Elise?

  Yeah. So she's back in North Carolina now with her mom, this is what, August of 2025? At this point, August, September, they're trying to figure out what's happening, where this case is going. It's incredibly a huge weight that she is carrying, of course. And to your point, psych, like psychologically, ebbs and flows, peaks and valleys, just going through all of these emotions and having very, very high highs and very, very low lows. And so then where does it go?

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Very, very erratic. Um.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  You know what? I don't actually know how she ended her life, but she did.

• 19:50Annie Elise?

  And when did she end her life?

• 19:52Speaker 02

  I need, I don't think I know how. It was December 2025, about five months after.

• 19:57Annie Elise?

  And she took her life?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  Yes. And there's no question about her physically taking her life, although I don't remember why. But if you think about the Michelle Carter case in Massachusetts,

• 20:11Speaker 02

  she didn't take her life because she had planned to. She took her life because she couldn't manage the trauma of what had happened to her.

• 20:19Annie Elise?

  Michelle Carter?

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Michelle Carter texted her boyfriend.

• 20:22Annie Elise?

  No, she ended up taking her life?

• 20:23Speaker 02

  No, she's alive. She went to prison.

• 20:25Annie Elise?

  Oh, I know. I know. I thought, sorry, I misheard. I thought you said she took her life too. No, yeah, where it was like coercion and like she forced it. She backed him into a corner and like berated him until he took his life.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:35Annie Elise?

  Yes. So you think that there's a possibility that maybe her father did that with her?

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Well, in her mind, over those, that five month period, you know, that is what took her life.

• 20:47Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  Not, not actually her physically doing it.

• 20:50Annie Elise?

  Right. No, it was the deterioration of her mental state and everything that she was going through and the trauma.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:55Annie Elise?

  That's the responsibility.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  So in other states, that is easily involuntary manslaughter.

• 21:02Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  In California, for a conservative DA who's running in this election this year, that is not clearly involuntary manslaughter because you'd have to push very hard.

• 21:16Annie Elise?

  They look at the act itself, who, for lack of a better term, pulled the trigger and that's the responsible party. And I know you mentioned that you don't know the method in which she took her life, which that's fine. We don't need to explore that. I don't think that that necessarily even matters in the grand scheme of things. But you've spoken with her mother, of course. And do you know, did she leave any sort of note behind? Did she did?

• 21:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, she had been journaling throughout the five month period. She was very verbal to her friends. She was texting. She was journaling. And she wrote notes to her mother, who she called mommy. And she said that this happened.

• 21:53Annie Elise?

  What else were, what was some of the contents of like her journal entries and to her, or the notes to her friends about where her mental state was and what she was thinking and what she was grappling with?

• 22:04Speaker 02

  I think, I mean, a lot of it was. A lot of what she wrote was, why, why, why? What did I do that made him do this to me? What did I do that made him think that this was okay?

• 22:17Annie Elise?

  So she's taking on the blame, thinking it's something that she did.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  And actively trying to figure out, how did this happen?

• 22:25Annie Elise?

  How did this happen to me?

• 22:26Speaker 02

  What was my part?

• 22:27Annie Elise?

  Yeah. Oh, my God. Was she receiving any sort of therapy or medical treatment in those five months, to your knowledge?

• 22:36Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 22:36Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  I didn't ask because if I can help at all, I want to stay objective in this. So if I am able to be a part of this case and obtain the records, then I'll objectively review them.

• 22:46Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Um, but it does sound like all hands were on deck, like friends, there are pictures. Everybody was trying to be there for her.

• 22:55Annie Elise?

  And what was happening within those five months? What was he doing?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Working as an electrician, entering people's homes.

• 23:02Annie Elise?

  Who have children.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  And getting drunk. The neighbors have all seen him at liquor stores. His exes have said that, uh, the whole family drinks heavy, heavy amounts all the time.

• 23:12Annie Elise?

  So there was arguably an alcohol problem before this, and then it's just continued.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Uh, that's what I've been told through people. So it's all alleged, of course, but, uh, yeah, people have been taking pictures of him going to the liquor store.

• 23:27Annie Elise?

  So December, I just want to go back to this for a moment. Michaela takes her life. And then what happens?

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Nothing. I mean,

• 23:35Annie Elise?

  Nobody does anything.

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Her cousin works up the courage to make one single social media post.

• 23:41Annie Elise?

  And it took a lot of time, months, for people to recognize that. Is that what you first saw?

• 23:46Speaker 02

  Um, somebody had sent it to me last week on Friday. And I was so enraged, I made a TikTok video and Instagram too. Um, but the TikTok rose to over 3 million views in three days.

• 24:01Annie Elise?

  Cause I think it's upset anybody who views it and hears the details of this case are going to be extremely upset.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:08Annie Elise?

  So since then, you've been in touch with her mother, her cousin, some attorneys. Walk me through what's happening right now, because we do have a very important hearing coming up on the 21st.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:18Annie Elise?

  And as you mentioned, some of those charges have appeared to have fallen off a little bit. It doesn't appear he's going to be even held accountable in the least bit for her death. There's also the problem, which I don't know, I'm not an attorney, so I don't know how complex this can get, but you might be able to shed some light on this. If he's pleading not guilty to the incest charge, and if he's also arguing that it was consensual, even though that's so contradictory, now she's not there to testify against him and have a voice. And so it's his version of events versus the same exam, which still, the same exam, depending on the injuries, if she was in the hospital for weeks, it could prove that this was not consensual based on what was happening. But that's obviously a big risk, I would imagine, in what's happening and a concern

• 25:03Annie Elise?

  for her family.

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:04Annie Elise?

  And so where, and let's really quickly, before we go into the conversations you've had with her mother and her cousin, talk to me about the autopsy a little bit, because we were, you were going in that direction of what the autopsy showed.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  I don't have the details of it, and a lot is going to be a part of the case, but I think the biggest part for me was that she was not pregnant.

• 25:24Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  All right, that was my, a big question, because statistically, when there are victims of incest, um, ending your life, when the pregnancy is revealed is, is the highest reason and risk.

• 25:35Annie Elise?

  I, I could be misremembering this from a different case, but isn't it an option that they provide during the same exam to give you the more, the morning after pill?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:45Annie Elise?

  Or like a termination? So it's possible that she took something, but we don't know, obviously.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  I would say in California, definitely, we still allow it.

• 25:54Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 25:55Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Um, but I don't know, actually.

• 25:57Annie Elise?

  Okay, but she wasn't pregnant at the time of her death, so it wasn't that she determined, she found out she was pregnant and that that pushed her over the edge. It was something that she had just been dealing with for months, trying to come to terms with and figure out and ultimately could not bear it anymore.

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Right. And so, I mean, the biggest finding from the autopsy was that she had ended her own life herself.

• 26:25Annie Elise?

  All right, I feel like we need to just have an honest conversation here in the circle of trust. Can we talk about how literally everything seems to be getting more expensive? Groceries, gas, rent, you name it. And apparently, your wireless bill wants to join in on that party too. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to. Mint Mobile is making it so much easier to stop overpaying for wireless with plans starting at just 15 bucks a month. And you're not sacrificing quality either. All plans include high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, and access to the nation's largest 5G network. You can also use your current phone and your current phone number. You just sign up online and you are good to go. Now, I changed carriers probably a year and a half ago at this point to Mint

• 27:09Annie Elise?

  Mobile. And when I tell you, not only was it the best decision of my life, I now have like service in places my husband doesn't even have service, but it was so easy. It took me 15 minutes, kept my phone, kept my phone number. It was the best. So for a new wireless plan starting at 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com/ae. That's mintmobile.com/ae. $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

• 27:48Annie Elise?

  According to her family, had she ever had any suicidal ideations in the past in her life?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  No, never.

• 27:54Annie Elise?

  Never?

• 27:55Speaker 02

  She was a happy kid.

• 27:56Annie Elise?

  Did she ever get into any trouble or hang with the wrong crowds? Not that that excuses or justifies anything, obviously, just thinking like what the argument could be from the defense of her mental state of, oh, well, she had a history of she had been on antidepressants at one point, or she dropped out of school, or she would lie to her parents, she would run away to where it's like you can start to paint this picture, but she didn't have anything like that in her background.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Not that I'm aware of. I mean, it was just a, you know, run-of-the-mill teen, posting happy, sometimes thirst trap pictures, like every teen does.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  You know, because teenagers are really skinny and they like to get attention on social media.

• 28:35Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  But she wanted to go to college. She wanted, she had good grades. She wanted to live a future oriented life.

• 28:43Annie Elise?

  And what has, has the mother had any more contact with her biological father since that last text message?

• 28:49Speaker 02

  No, not since that last message. And she's tried very hard to work with the Ventura County DA and the victim advocate. She's really gotten the runaround and she's at the point where she is aware that the hearing is going to be on the 21st and it's going to be the state's attorney and then the defendant's attorney. And I, I'm not sure if Chavez even has to be there, but it's where the judge will decide if this is going to move forward as an actual case.

• 29:25Annie Elise?

  So it's very possible that in a week's time, this guy could walk scot-free.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:33Annie Elise?

  While his daughter was brutalized for over four hours and then took her life because of it.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:40Annie Elise?

  So walk me through some of your conversations you've had with the family and what that's been like and what they've shared with you.

• 29:46Speaker 02

  They're horrified. They're, they're still in shock. Like when they, they talk about her, they talk about her like she's alive.

• 29:53Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Like they have to actively remember and remind themselves, she's not alive.

• 29:58Annie Elise?

  Oh my god.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  It's, they're in a complete state of shock.

• 30:01Annie Elise?

  What a nightmare.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  And to navigate, you know, mom's back in North Carolina and to navigate all of this from, you know, a fractured family.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  They're seeking advice. People are trying to mooch off them to get clickbait material, money. Lawyers are going to want to engage in civil lawsuits just to try and get fame.

• 30:24Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  And so what I asked her to do was to just, you know, make sure you trust people that are giving you advice. She can trust me. I told her I would tell her if I saw any videos that came up because bigger content creators have been posting. People with millions and millions of views. But.

• 30:45Annie Elise?

  Is that great? Or are they?

• 30:47Speaker 02

  I think it's great because you have a district attorney running for reelection in a conservative area and to the people of Ventura County, this is fucking horrifying.

• 30:59Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  And even smaller.

• 31:00Annie Elise?

  People all over the country, hello, it's horrifying.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Right. But who do they care about?

• 31:05Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Who's gonna vote for them, right?

• 31:06Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  You know, they want to keep their jobs.

• 31:08Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  So what I've seen actually through all my followers and a ton of people have just emailed and emailed and called the, the superior court and the DA's. And it, you know, it's not just one DA, there's a head DA and then there's a ton of other DA's, right? And every time they get a reply, it's a template reply that we plan to attempt to move forward with prosecution, something like that. But the person that's replying keeps becoming a superior. So it was a superior, now it's the deputy, then it's a chief.

• 31:37Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  So as we push, they are taking this to higher levels of authoritative figures to respond to people.

• 31:45Annie Elise?

  What does that indicate to you? That they're getting nervous?

• 31:48Speaker 02

  That they're getting scared.

• 31:49Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And no one has replied to me.

• 31:52Annie Elise?

  No. Well, I'm sure they don't want to, at least until at minimum after the hearing, because they don't want to jeopardize anything, is my guess, I don't know.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Or I might, you know, let everyone know, right? I mean, no, like, people can post emails they've received, but it's

• 32:08Annie Elise?

  Right.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Not, they're not gonna go viral.

• 32:10Annie Elise?

  And what's Michaela's cousin sharing? We've spoken with her on the side as well, we're gonna be doing a way larger deep dive into this case, guys, but I know you've had so many conversations with her, you spoke with her mother for two hours the other night. So what have some of those conversations been like? Obviously, they're still trying to understand how all of this happened, they're living in a state of shock, but what are they? I don't want to say like, what are they trying to do, but like, what is, what is the forward motion here and like, what can help them?

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Um, I, a lot of the questions were so innocent, like, all of these cases where the families, they've never experienced anything like this.

• 32:47Annie Elise?

  Yeah, it's like, you don't even know where to navigate.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  Right. And so I said, you know, what I don't want is to have a target on your back.

• 32:54Annie Elise?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  You know, the cousin is still in the area and we don't

• 32:58Annie Elise?

  In the Moore Park area.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  You know, if this man is capable of doing something like this, what is he capable of doing to the cousin? So there's a real threat to safety.

• 33:09Annie Elise?

  Do you know, based on your conversations with the cousin and the mother, after he made, he posted bond and he bailed out and after she returned home to North Carolina, was he ever in communication with Michaela? Did he text her? Did he try to silence her? Did he try to intimidate her?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  I believe there was communication. I haven't seen it.

• 33:28Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  But I think there was a part of everyone trying to figure out what was happening, what had happened.

• 33:35Annie Elise?

  Like, was, I guess I'm curious,

• 33:39Annie Elise?

  did she ever text him anything like, why did you do this to me? What, how, like, or him texting her being like, why are you doing this to me? What, just what kind of dynamic was between the two of them?

• 33:52Speaker 02

  That sounds familiar to me.

• 33:54Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  But I don't know what the source was and I haven't seen it.

• 33:57Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  But I know that there was this, like, Michaela was on a private journey to figuring this out. She was shutting down. And in doing that, she was reaching out to people to try and understand as well. And you know, when someone wants to end their life, they, they, near the end, they get quite happy because they know they don't have to live with the pain anymore. So around the end of that fifth month, she was, she was happy.

• 34:23Annie Elise?

  And nobody, yeah, nobody would have seen any sort of warning signs or any indication that she was in such a dark place, she was going to take her life.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Which leads everyone in the family to blame themselves.

• 34:35Annie Elise?

  Yeah, but that's such, I mean, I get, I understand that, but that's such a tough spot to be in to try to take on that burden.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  And then you've also have, you know, the dynamic of the family and culturally and,

• 34:48Speaker 02

  are they from El Salvador? It's just, they're, they're, they are from a culture that doesn't talk about this kind of stuff. And so they're not all talking about it together. They're not all aligned. The people in Moore Park say that

• 35:06Speaker 02

  They are utterly shocked that these allegations are coming across to the father. That people, that some of his best friends are shocked by it.

• 35:14Annie Elise?

  Like they think he's an upstanding guy?

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Um, no one has said that. No, no, they've said-

• 35:19Annie Elise?

  They're just more horrified and shocked by everything. Okay. Not like, I can't imagine he's such a great guy. I'm shocked that these allegations are out there casting doubt, more of like a holy, like what the hell is even happening?

• 35:30Speaker 02

  But nobody has, nobody has come to a side.

• 35:34Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  At all.

• 35:35Annie Elise?

  I mean, how could you?

• 35:36Speaker 02

  Right. I think, um, people have witnessed, I think, like drunken parties of the family, but I don't know the timeline if it was. Cause you know, I purposely boosted the videos directly to Moore Park. So everyone in that town, if you open up Instagram, you're getting a paid ad from Dr. Leslie about this.

• 35:56Annie Elise?

  Good, good. As it should be. I mean, I get it. Innocent until proven guilty, but like, hello, like.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:03Annie Elise?

  Okay. So now what's happening at the hearing?

• 36:07Speaker 02

  So it's a closed door hearing, um, but hundreds of people plan to go and protest at 8am on the 21st outside Ventura Superior Court.

• 36:17Annie Elise?

  To make sure that this does move forward.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  To, to show the judge that we're outside.

• 36:22Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  And it's a small courthouse. You can hear, you can see.

• 36:26Annie Elise?

  And what does her family want in all of this? I mean, I would imagine, of course they want justice, but that's the easy answer, right? So it's like, they want, they wish that this nightmare never even existed and they didn't have to be dealing with this. But what is it in this moment? That they would want other people to help with aside from just showing up at the hearing?

• 36:47Speaker 02

  I think a few things. Um, they, they have a GoFundMe.

• 36:51Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  You know, that will help for potential civil litigation, should they go down that avenue.

• 36:56Annie Elise?

  And her mother's expenses to be here when things happen. Okay.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  She's flying from North Carolina.

• 37:02Annie Elise?

  It adds up.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:03Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Um, they want, they want the attorney to force him to register as a sex offender. Because he won't be able to work as an electrician any longer.

• 37:14Annie Elise?

  Oh, I never even thought about that, but yeah, you can't be entering people's homes.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:18Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  So that's something the district attorney has to put forward and demand.

• 37:23Annie Elise?

  And if they did the, I mean, I'm just asking you, based on you have gone, you've been an expert on so many cases, expert witness during trials, based on your knowledge and what you've been exposed to, given that they performed a same exam and collected DNA evidence, does this guy even have a shot in hell of getting out of this?

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, he has a big shot.

• 37:46Annie Elise?

  How?

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Uh, plausible deniability, there's no longer a victim, would mom testify in her, on her behalf, is it believable?

• 37:57Annie Elise?

  Even if it's clear cut through DNA that there was an act of incest that took place, which they could obviously plead that down 1,000%, we've seen it done a million times.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  I think the main question is going to be, because this is his biological father, she's already going to carry his DNA. So now we need to take it to a level of where did the DNA come from? And it needs to be extremely specific. So there needs to be experts involved that can break that down.

• 38:27Annie Elise?

  Well, yeah, DNA is way different than like what's in your blood or your tissue or your hair versus what is external and collected inside of you.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  But police and lawyers are lazy and they don't do anything and they won't do anything until they feel the pressure of the public. And so unless we push, they're not going to do anything with that kit. And then his lawyer will say, well, it's just DNA. And then you've got an old judge who's like, eh, it's just, I guess, the same DNA. It literally is that stupid.

• 39:00Annie Elise?

  Even though they see the police report, the hospital records, everything.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:06Annie Elise?

  That is enraging.

• 39:07Speaker 02

  It is lazy stupidity in most police departments and with most lawyers. And I, I tell you this as Lawyers hate lawyers because lawyers are lazy. Police hate other police departments because they're lazy. Firemen fight with police because they're always passing the buck on who has to deal with the erratic homeless person.

• 39:28Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Right? Like, they, they don't want to work. And I say this as like, well over 10 year government employee. You fall into, what can I do that is the least amount of my energy?

• 39:42Annie Elise?

  Now, certainly, that's just like a trope for like, certain people. There, I would, I mean, I personally know lots of officers and attorneys who are hardworking and like, want justice and like, believe in the badge and everything they're doing. But what you're saying, just to be clear, I just want to make sure I'm hearing right, is more of these like segmented people who are like, over, overall, in something that's tough to pursue, they aren't going to push through the toughness in most cases.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Right. And that's true. I see a lot of police and firemen in therapy who are heroic and amazing individuals. But I also see them over time give up. Because the fight to get charges and prosecution is so hard. There's so much pushback. And so, when a lot of people start with a lot of energy and then they get faced with so much pushback, because people care about themselves and their jobs, or, you know, working in the state hospital system, everyone told me, don't report being assaulted by a patient unless there's three assaults, because no DA is going to help you or pick that up. No matter the severity.

• 40:46Annie Elise?

  Now, I think, do you think it's two reasons for that? That they don't want to push through the hardness and they get just so beaten down that they lose the will to the, to fight? But do you also think for some of these elected positions, that it has to, it comes down to, what is my conviction rate likely going to be? If I don't think that this is a slam dunk, I'm not going to take it. Because when I'm up for reelection, I want a 98% conviction rate.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  100%.

• 41:11Annie Elise?

  So rather than even putting the victim first, and what's right, they care more about the perception and their longevity in their career? Wow.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  And that's

• 41:23Annie Elise?

  That's disheartening.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  I don't know how it is around the world, but it's very American.

• 41:26Annie Elise?

  Yeah, that's true. So as of right now, the hearing is only for the charges that we know of. There's obviously, it would be great, but there's been no mention of any sort of manslaughter charges or anything like that. But there's the possibility of a civil suit for wrongful death.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  You know, they could come forward with more charges on the 21st, on April 21st.

• 41:48Annie Elise?

  Okay.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  They could bring more. I mean, I don't think they expected the infamy of this. I don't think

• 41:55Annie Elise?

  Do you think that there's enough evidence to have some sort of manslaughter charge attached? I mean, I know we probably all wish it, but what's realistic?

• 42:06Speaker 02

  I think that if you got this in front of a jury, yes. Definitely. And the lawyers need to educate themselves on coercive control bills and they need to be savvy with using other cases to their benefit, which is going to take a lot of work. They have to work on the case and I don't think they expected to.

• 42:33Annie Elise?

  So where, I mean, I don't even want to say like, where do we go from here? But where, besides the hearing, where do we go from here? Is there anything else that her family has wanted to be made public that, and I know I mentioned we'll do the deep dive where we go way more into the family dynamics, the text messages, interviews, all of that. But I wanted to at least get this case out there and ahead of the hearing so people can hear. But what's, what are the next steps?

• 42:59Speaker 02

  I mean, ideally, what we would do is pass a law, pass a bill or change the way this goes, right?

• 43:07Speaker 02

  For five months, we could have saved this girl. But because she was 18, we couldn't access so much. Her mom couldn't access so much. So we have this high up standard of we need to change the system, right? But what we have right now for the family is we need to get loud. We need to show up. We need to share this with everyone. We need to put the pressure on. We need to contact.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Let's see.

• 43:32Annie Elise?

  I love that you have all your notes here.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  I know. We need to contact the DA Tessa McCarty, the DA Erin Meister, the DA Eric, I don't even know how you say his last name.

• 43:43Annie Elise?

  And locals, of course, can show up to the courthouse on the 21st.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Yes. Eric Nosrenko is the DA for Ventura, the top-notch guy, who is a white male.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  So, I mean, there's, there's a lot of, maybe there's corruption involved, who knows? But unless we put pressure on.

• 44:05Annie Elise?

  The point is, somebody needs to be held accountable for what this girl not only experienced, but the aftermath of what she then did to herself because of this experience.

• 44:16Speaker 02

  And as we've seen in a lot of cases, and your audience is so savvy, putting forward suggestions to attorneys works.

• 44:24Annie Elise?

  It does.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  It really works. I can use it.

• 44:26Annie Elise?

  Absolutely. I will say this, the true crime community, although there are occasionally some bad apples and sometimes tip lines get flooded with bogus tips and it shouldn't be that way, and it can deter things, it is, to your point, a savvy community who have the same shared goal of bringing, making, holding people accountable, bringing justice to people, and a lot of them, to your point, do think outside of the box and think through, like, well, what about this? Or not even, like, have you considered this? But what if we took this approach? And so it's scary sometimes, and it can be reckless to be like, if you guys know anything, say anything, because then that's when, like, tip lines get flooded and people see a lead or a rumor on Facebook and they think it is a tip when it's evidence and they report it. So it's like, it's not that piece of it. It's more

• 45:10Annie Elise?

  of the, what can we do to evoke change and real change?

• 45:16Speaker 02

  I think we need to, the reality of the situation is that career lawyers don't always know new stuff. We do.

• 45:25Annie Elise?

  Right.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  We're on TikTok. We're on Instagram. We're learning.

• 45:28Annie Elise?

  We know of other cases that you can cite and reference and to, as you build things in.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  I think we need to educate them. And we can do that in emails. They're reading them and replying. We can send letters. We can go to the courthouse. We can talk to the clerks. We can call.

• 45:44Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  But I really think it comes down to we need to put our brains together because they are probably not aware of the things that your audience will come up with.

• 45:51Annie Elise?

  Absolutely. You see, you guys hear that? You guys are all so smart and savvy. I've been saying it for years, but it's nice to hear somebody else say it.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  It's very true, and I've seen it play out in cases over and over. And it's simply because, one, DA's are, they just have too many cases. They have so, they're flooded. They are just kind of used as bodies in the government.

• 46:11Annie Elise?

  Well, and for something like this, where the girl, where she's no longer alive, the victim is no longer alive, not only does it become more challenging to try, but then it becomes more complicated. So that would, I would imagine, get pushed to the back of the stack regardless because of just unfortunately, the reality of it.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  But how are we going to stop this from happening to other girls again in the future without pushing forward with this case and making this a new case law that California follows?

• 46:41Annie Elise?

  Absolutely. So, okay, so what I would love to do, if you're open to it, is I know you're obviously, as we said, following this so closely and speaking with people as well. When we do have the deep dive come out soon, I would love to have you back on and we can talk through it. We will have, I believe, some of the family members on as well and would just have a conversation about what happened at the hearing, where things are going. Hopefully, they're not at a standstill at that point, so that hopefully, not only is some real change going to happen, but that this alleged monster is held accountable. I mean, somebody who could do that to their own daughter after living with him for two days and four hours.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  I, I spoke to a lawyer the other day, and I was just like, what the hell is going on here? And he said, you know, I'm not a criminal lawyer, I'm a civil lawyer. But man, wouldn't it be interesting to file civil litigation against the guy and have to depose the district attorney?

• 47:36Speaker 02

  That's a fabulous idea.

• 47:37Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  I didn't think of that.

• 47:39Annie Elise?

  Ways to, to your point, get creative in figuring this out.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  To get information to reopen the case if this doesn't go our way on the 21st. There's always ways to bring things back.

• 47:50Annie Elise?

  Yeah. Well, let's hope that this guy gets more charges even on the 21st and that they don't dismiss this because

• 47:57Speaker 02

  And that he's deemed a flight risk.

• 47:59Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  And just taken in immediately.

• 48:00Annie Elise?

  Yeah, there's no reason he should be walking around because not only the flight risk piece of it, I know the witness intimidation element is taken off the table, but this guy is clearly a predator and I don't care if he's leaning on the fact that he has an alcohol issue or he drinks a lot or he's blackout. You are a predator. The fact that you could do this to your own daughter, who's to say you're not going to do it to anyone else who you walk into their house to fix their electricity?

• 48:23Speaker 02

  The severity, the degree, the relationship, all tells me this wasn't the first time.

• 48:30Annie Elise?

  Oh, the first time that you think he's assaulted someone?

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Definitely. This is not a first time.

• 48:35Annie Elise?

  The brutality of it. You're right. You're right.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  The brutality of it. But even with that said, we need justice. We need justice. This can't be pushed because she's not alive. This can't be pushed to the back of the list.

• 48:47Annie Elise?

  Yeah. If anything, it needs to be at the forefront so that we don't lose children, even though I know she was 18, but young adults or children to situations like this in the future. If we don't do anything, it's just going to be Groundhog's Day over and over.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:02Annie Elise?

  Well, thank you. I really appreciate you joining and sharing, shedding some light on this.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:07Annie Elise?

  So we will definitely keep following this closely. Let us know too, in the comments, if you guys have heard about this case, what you're hearing, what you think. I will leave in the show notes, the hearing details, where you can get in touch, everything like that. And let us know any questions you have too, for the follow-up and we can.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Stephen Chavez, you're welcome to reach out to me.

• 49:29Annie Elise?

  There you go. Call to action, right there. Well, thank you for joining. Can you let everybody know where they can find you?

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Um, my website's drleslydobson.com and then Instagram and TikTok are Dr. Leslie Dobson.

• 49:40Annie Elise?

  Perfect.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  And we will be making some TV shows coming up soon.

• 49:44Annie Elise?

  I know, that's great. I'm so excited for you.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  My face will be forced upon you all.

• 49:48Annie Elise?

  I'm telling you, you need the podcast I told you about because you are so knowledgeable when it comes to pedos, unfortunately, because you've worked with so many.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  And he wants me to just be the pedo doctor.

• 50:00Annie Elise?

  I do. I mean, not just the pedo doctor, but like, how to catch a pedo. I'm telling you because

• 50:04Speaker 02

  I know.

• 50:05Annie Elise?

  You are, not only have you worked with so many of them in the state hospitals and on cases and as an expert witness on cases, but you know how their psyche works, you know why this happens. So I think in turn, you could provide a lot of education and knowledge to parents, to people, to myself of like, how can we protect our kids? What signs can we look for? I don't know the statistic off the top of my head, but more times than not, the assault happens with somebody in close proximity, someone you know, whether it's a family member, a family friend. So what are those signs to look for of grooming, of too close of a relationship? And I, I know if you had something like that, I would be listening all the time because as a parent, I want to protect my kids to the ends of the earth. So I really think you should consider it because you've been exposed to them. You've even shared with

• 50:47Annie Elise?

  me offline, some of the horrific things you've seen them do, even once they're taken into custody. And I think it's like, expose it, expose it all so that they don't get to hide in this dark, disgusting, filthy corner anymore where it's like the thing people don't talk about. It's like, no, it needs to be shared so it can be avoided.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  I mean, literally people don't know. I mean, Google, I say this all the time, Google Koalinga State Hospital.

• 51:12Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Google the hospital. Look at where we place these predators. Look at their crimes.

• 51:18Annie Elise?

  Well, and now I forget what, is it a law? Is it a bill? What it is? We're now in California, they are releasing offenders who age out of the program at 60 or 65 years old. And even if they have had a string of assaults or statutory claim, or whatever it is, they're now releasing them because of their age, which, hi, I'm sorry, I see some very healthy 60 year olds out there who could absolutely be released on the street and go assault somebody again.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:49Annie Elise?

  It is fucking wild to me.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  And Sexual assault is not about an orgasm.

• 51:55Annie Elise?

  No.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  It's about power and authority and delusion and cognitive distortion. And I've had guys blow their dicks off and still go sexually assault people.

• 52:04Annie Elise?

  Well, it's interesting you say that because.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Not a lot of guys blow their dicks off you.

• 52:08Annie Elise?

  I was speaking to somebody, a professional, not long ago. It wasn't Matt Murphy. Who was it? I was talking to somebody offline about that because I was like, look, I am all of the mentality of like, if somebody is convicted, not discharged, convicted of sexual assault or assaulting a minor or something like that. I don't care if it's physical castration or chemical castration, castrate the bastard. And they told me, they're like, that doesn't solve it. Because it's, it's something embedded in their brain. To your point, it's not about the release. It's about the power. So then they would still do it just as a sodomy type way with an object or something like that. It doesn't even have to do with the physical body. It's everything mentally.

• 52:50Annie Elise?

  And look, I'm obviously not a doctor, but I'm just gonna say, I don't think you can reprogram that. I don't think you can rehabilitate those kinds of thoughts and desires and wishes. So lock them up, throw away the key. I don't care if they're 60, I don't care if they're 80, keep that shit away.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:05Annie Elise?

  That's where I'm at.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  And the world can hate on California and they should hate on California. Because we treat these guys, we put them in the category of patients, not criminals.

• 53:16Annie Elise?

  That's insane.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Which means they have access to the internet. They have rights. We're paying $250,000 a year to hospitalized one of these guys.

• 53:25Annie Elise?

  You're lying. That's what it equates to?

• 53:27Speaker 02

  It's probably, it's probably more now, actually. That's, that's a little dated statistic. It's probably way more. No, that's how much we're paying. And the hospital is 2,000 of them. There's eight state hospitals in California. Now go somewhere like Idaho and you get the fucking firing squad.

• 53:42Annie Elise?

  Yeah, amen. That's what, that's what I'd like to see.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  Policies in California are, are, they suck when it comes to sexual offenses. I think they're horrible. And that's why I fight so hard to just try and get somebody locked up.

• 53:58Annie Elise?

  Yeah.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  If we can get them locked up in any which way, even if it's the welfare and institutions and patient. At least they're away from vulnerable children and women.

• 54:09Annie Elise?

  Well, thank you. I really appreciate you being on. All right, guys, we will be back and talk with you again very soon on this case. Like I said, let me know your thoughts and what you are hearing or have heard about this case in the comments. I will leave all of the resource links in the show notes and until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, don't be a creep, and I don't even- Keep your dick in your hands and your pants. Thank you. Amen. Amen. Bye.