5 Lessons in Negotiation from an FBI Hostage Negotiator

Want to use these FBI negotiation tactics to make money? Turn conversations into customers - get your first 100: https://clickhubspot.com/rtb Episode 746: Shaan Puri ( https://x.com/ShaanVP ) gets coached by Chris Voss ( https://x.com/fbinegotiator ) on how to be a better negotiator in business. — Show Notes: (0:00) The hijack moment (10:04) High stakes hostage negotiation (20:53) Rule 1. You have imperfect information (23:51) Rule 2. Label (28:00) Rule 3. Go for no (34:30) Rule 4. Leverage will never make you a better negotiator (36:53) Rule 5. Be predictable (39:00) Oprah as a master negotiator (42:49) How to prep for a negotiation (47:46) Chris Voss in situ (50:23) Parenting advice from a hostage negotiator (52:38) Let them talk — Links: • Join the Black Swan Community - https://www.blackswanltd.com/ — Check Out Shaan's Stuff: • Shaan's weekly email - https://www.shaanpuri.com • Visit https://www.somewhere.com/mfm to hire worldwide talent like Shaan and get $500 off for being an MFM listener. Hire developers, assistants, marketing pros, sales teams and more for 80% less than US equivalents. • Mercury - Need a bank for your company? Go check out Mercury (mercury.com). Shaan uses it for all of his companies! Mercury is a financial technology company, not an FDIC-insured bank. Banking services provided by Choice Financial Group, Column, N. A., and Evolve Bank & Trust, Members FDIC — Check Out Sam's Stuff: • Hampton - https://www.joinhampton.com/ • Ideation Bootcamp - https://www.ideationbootcamp.co/ • Copy That - https://copythat.com • Hampton Wealth Survey - https://joinhampton.com/wealth • Sam’s List - http://samslist.co/ My First Million is a HubSpot Original Podcast // Brought to you by HubSpot Media // Production by Arie Desormeaux // Editing by Ezra Bakker Trupiano

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shaan Puri?

  I'll start with this, Chris, I don't know if you can see this, but I'm writing down today's date, because today is the day that I become a better negotiator.

• 0:19Shaan Puri?

  You are a master negotiator, former FBI negotiator for 20 plus years. Now you've been consulting, teaching the art of negotiation to business people and anybody who needs negotiation. And the funny thing about negotiation is it's this skill we all need that I feel like I personally never got taught. I never, it's all self-taught, anything you learn. And one of the things I realized was so often I was negotiating and I didn't even realize it, whether it was with an investor or with an employee or a customer, life is full of negotiations. And so I'm excited because I think this is going to be quite useful. So maybe my starting point is this, if today was the day I'm getting better at negotiation, where do I start?

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the first thing is let the other side go first. And then, it's a difference, actually listening is a challenge. Because when the other person is talking, there's times you want to jump in. It's almost impossible to resist. It's basically if there were five, six steps to becoming a better listener, the real challenge comes at step two. It's a hijack point. If you're listening at all, as opposed to completely focusing on your internal dialogue where you're waiting to speak, most people get past that stage.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  But if you're listening at all, either listening to rebut, aha, here's where you're wrong. The urge to correct is irresistible. I mean, like, it's insanely impossible to overcome. So you'll jump in there to hijack the conversation to correct. The urge to correct is so irresistible that we actually use it as one of our negotiation skills. I'll say something wrong on purpose, because you will not be able to resist the urge to correct me with the truth.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  And it's a great way for me to trigger getting hidden information out of you. They won't regret giving me because you won't. Is the old saying, we don't remember what was said, we remember how we felt in the moment. Dearest to correct is so satisfying. That you'll never regret telling me something you shouldn't have told me because it felt so good in the moment. So that's, that's the powerless hijack moment, uh, hijack to correct. Now, the other thing that you'll, you'll do frequently is hijack to relate and it's called story stealing and you won't. You won't mean to do it. But, um, the other person will say something that triggers this incredible memory in you.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  Of a past experience, something that happened to you, it's one of the fallacies of common ground. And you'll completely be unable to resist that urge to jump in. To tell me your story. Oh my God, the same thing happened to me. And you'll feel incredibly good in that moment.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Not realizing how squashed I feel. And it's one of the people, one of the reasons why people refer to it as story stealing. Because it feels so good to you, you can't imagine that what I feel is like, how you had to have a better story than me. You had to one up me. You had to do better than me. And you can't imagine that that's the case because the memory it triggered in you was so good. So actually listening through that hijack moment is one of the big challenge. Well, probably the single biggest challenge of becoming a better negotiator. Cause you gotta listen to somebody all the way through and then. And here's how powerful it is to make somebody feel heard.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Because just because, uh, you've been heard, doesn't mean you feel heard.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Just because I do understand doesn't mean that you feel understood. Hmm. So I I'm at a wedding a couple of weeks ago in Ireland. And it's my first substantive conversation with the bride. Uh, the night of the uh, after the wedding ceremony. Uh, and as as you could imagine, she's unconscious on her feet. She's making the rounds through the wedding reception dinner. She's obligated to speak to everybody. Cause that's what brides gotta do. It's a bride and groom. We're supposed to walk around, say hello to everybody, make them feel happy that they are there and thank them for showing up.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  And all I'm doing when I'm talking to her, my first real conversation with her is telling her what she went through that day. Uh, I'm telling her what she went through. I said, you know, this, this is, this is probably, it's probably easier to run a small country in South America than it was to pull off this wedding. And you know, you're here to celebrate the union of two families. And your, your husband is here because he's gotta be, you know? So I'm laying all this out to her, all of, of what she's going through, showing her completely that I understood everything that she went through leading up to that point.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  She went into me the next night at dinner and she walks up to me and she gives me this big hug. And she says, I have no memory of what you said to me last night. I just remember how good it made me feel. And that's the power of making somebody feel understood. She literally couldn't remember a word, but she felt bonded to me because I thoroughly understood her. That's the challenge of making, and the, the mission and the goal of making feel, somebody feel completely heard and understood.

• 6:06Shaan Puri?

  You have no idea how many times I wanted to interrupt during that story. And I just knew this, if I'm ever gonna do it, this is the one time I need to just listen the way you're describing.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  And also, like, you, the urge, congratulations on resisting that urge. Cause in the moment, you had, you're like, I wanna speak, right? I mean, good job. That urge is huge. I have trouble resisting it sometimes.

• 6:33Shaan Puri?

  And so you're saying that the starting point is the skill of truly listening? Not waiting for your turn to talk? Not trying to hijack what you call the fallacy of common ground? Where I think I'm building this bridge with you and you're like, dude, you just sideswiped what I was trying to tell you and you're, you wanna tell me about you when I was trying to tell you how I'm feeling or what I'm going through or what's happening in my life? And so those techniques are not even, I mean, negotiation is just one small part of that. That just seems like how to win friends and influence people. That seems like, you know, it should be relationship, you know, the foundation of any kind of communication or relationship. So is it that negotiation fundamentally is just connecting with other people?

• 7:18Shaan Puri?

  Is it that? Or is it that these skills apply to other domains? I mean, what's the right way to think about that?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it's across the board. I mean, and first of all, negotiation, if your objective is to have a long-term relationship of trust where we both prosper.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Now, if you're a complete sociopath,

• 7:37Speaker 01

  that should be your objective.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Because it's low maintenance, it's the least amount of effort and it's the maximum amount of money. And I make, I'm, you know, I got a number of people, I got one of our top level coaching clients, said, I have made so much more money being collaborative than I ever made being cuss throat.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Your relationships, you make deals faster, your relationships flow more smoothly.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  That should be your goal. Like you, if you're the most mercenary person in the world, then the only thing you care about is making money.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Then that's the fastest, easiest way to make the money. But that's not everybody's definition. Most people think of it as win lose, you know, battle of arguments. I'm gonna get the upper hand on you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna have you over a barrel. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna force you to do what I want. You know, the people, power negotiations, if you will. That, that puts you out of business. You lose, you lose friends, you lose collaborators, you lose colleagues.

• 8:38Shaan Puri?

  All right, let's take a quick break because we got something for you. You know, we pinned a survey to one of our videos and we asked, what's the biggest challenge you have right now in your business? And the number one thing that you guys said was getting your first hundred customers. That was the most popular response. And it's, of course, that's the challenge because if you can't get to a hundred customers, you're definitely not going to get to a thousand. So what the team at HubSpot did was they went through all the old episodes and they heard the stories where I talked about how I got customers for my first business, how Sam did it for his first business. And some of the guests that came on and talked about what they did, how they scrapped and clawed and got those initial hundred customers to get the ball rolling. And then they put those together in a report. It's a PDF, it's totally free and you can get it. And it'll give you some inspiration, some ideas around how you might be able to go get your first hundred customers. Check it out, it's in the description below.

• 9:22Shaan Puri?

  So what is the right way to think about negotiating? Because in my mind, you know, my simpleton brain, if I imagined a great negotiator, if you said, think about the best negotiator, I think of somebody who's either very powerful, maybe even intimidating, or they're just very charismatic, they're able to sort of manipulate, win the other side over. And I definitely default to a win lose dynamic. I'm trying to get as much as I can and they're trying to get as much as they can. And let's see who wins this negotiation. Whether I'm buying a car, I'm going and getting a Nintendo off of Craigslist or whatever it is, that's the default for me. And so how did, how did you do relationships if you're, I mean, maybe this just doesn't apply, but if you're a hostage negotiator, I mean, are you trying to have a relationship with these people? There's somebody you've never known and they're clearly, you know, off their rocker if they're

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Let's not, let's not put them in the off the rocker category. Let's make that simpler to start with.

• 10:14Shaan Puri?

  Okay, let's, let's say it's not the first person I would think of when I say, I want a long-term relationship with this person. And so can you tell me a story about maybe, I don't know, your first high stakes hostage negotiation and how you approached it? And I guess what the mindset is there?

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Well, I learned three things, I suppose. To start with, I learned the application of empathy from a crisis hotline.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  And what we now refer to as tactical empathy. Um, but just, you know, demonstrating understanding, not understanding, but demonstrating understanding. In a way that the other side feels heard and draws them into telling you more, removes you as a threat. First move in a negotiation is to remove yourself as a threat because why would they make a great deal with you if you're a threat? Why would? They, they, they might make a deal with you if you're a threat, but they're not going to make a great deal with you. So one of the, one of the first really counterintuitive moves is to move yourself as a threat. A hostage negotiator does that with a not threatening voice, calming, soothing, late night FM DJ voice.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  And expressing genuine concern for the bad guy. Like, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm here to get everybody out. That includes you, Mr. Bad Guy. Now, whether or not you let me get you out is going to be up to you. But that's my objective first, first of all, and I need to find out whether or not you're good with that. Some, some bad guys want to die. I need to know that right away. Now here's the counter crazy counterintuitive thing when you talk about relationships. Hostage negotiators have repeat customers. So I might not see you again, but if I get you out alive, another negotiator is going

• 12:07Speaker 01

  to. Which means if I lied to you, if I deceived you, if I didn't take the time to understand you, that's going to be your experience when you run across the next guy and things are probably going to go bad. So in point of fact, you know, the, the whole idea of a long-term relationship, I, I, I gotta, I gotta be willing to step in to be open with that. And you're going to be, bad guy's going to be able to smell that.

• 12:35Shaan Puri?

  What was your first big case, first big situation where you, you had to deal with a hostage situation and you came out, um, with a successful outcome?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Uh, it was a very rare event that I was lucky enough to get involved in a bank robbery with hostages where we trapped them inside with the hostages.

• 12:56Shaan Puri?

  And so what happened? You get the call that this is going down? And I mean, just what I mean, what was that like? Tell me, tell me about it.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  So we didn't get the call. We, we became aware of it and we just went. Which is a really, a philosophy that I live by, which is called run to trouble. And it's amazingly liberating if your philosophy is to run to trouble. And so we ran to trouble.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  We showed up, uh, since it's a bank, FBI and NYPD are showing up. Uh, the negotiation teams on both sides knew each other really well. We had a great relationship. We had a bank robbery task force in New York at the time. So the PD and the bureau are already aligned on the criminal prosecution.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  So the two negotiation teams blended. And, uh, the first hostage negotiator on the phone was a, was a PD detective. I was his coach. The PD commander was in charge of the negotiation operations center on the inside. The bureau's lead negotiator, our coordinator at the time, went to the outside in the event, any, um, voice to voice bullhorn stuff was needed.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  We negotiated for a number of hours. Uh, the commander decided, um, to sort of disrupt the dynamic a little bit. It was stalemated at a very low threat level. And so he pulled the PD negotiator and he put me on the phone with the bad guys. And I had one of the, uh, one of the bank robbers out about 90 minutes later.

• 14:34Shaan Puri?

  What'd you start with when you got on the phone?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  We went disruptive to start with, which is, was not the usual protocol. The commander sensed, uh, Hugh McGowan, great instincts, great instincts. He listened long enough to realize that the secret to gaining the upper hand in the conversation was going to be how each conversation closed. Bad guy was constantly saying, hey, I gotta go. They're coming. They're gonna hear me. Or I gotta, I gotta put you on hold or I put you on speaker and then he'd just get off the phone.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  So he said, um, no matter what happens, you extend every call, you end every call. He tries to get off the phone. I don't care what you gotta do. You keep on the phone five, seven, 10 seconds longer than you in the call. We're gonna take control of this by taking control of the end.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  And the other thing we normally, the normal handoff is hand a phone up to the next negotiator. And the next negotiator does an elaborate summary of everything's been set up to now. Because what you anticipate is a bad guy saying like, Chris, who's this Chris guy? Does he even know what the hell's going on?

• 15:43Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  And so normally Chris is gonna say, hey, I've been sitting here for a long time and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm up to speed. You don't have to.

• 15:51Shaan Puri?

  Why do you hand it off at all?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  It could be for a variety of reasons. Normally it's to take a harder line.

• 15:58Shaan Puri?

  Okay.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  No negotiation team, whether it's business or hostage, hands a negotiator off to another negotiator to be nicer.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Ever.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Business or hostage, if there's a change in negotiators on the other side, it is always to take a harder line, always.

• 16:23Shaan Puri?

  And why, why is it better to hand it off to somebody else who'll take the harder line versus you yourself escalating to a harder stance?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  It's gonna catch the other side off guard a little. Uh, it's destabilizing without necessarily being threatening right away.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  And if I've been a pushover up to now and suddenly I'm demanding you have reason to believe I've been inauthentic, you know, which guy is the real you, the other guy or this guy?

• 16:54Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  So there's a, there's an authenticity issue involved.

• 16:59Shaan Puri?

  And so how did you get them out? You said 90 minutes later, you got hostages out. What resolved it or what was the breakthrough point, the inflection point for that one?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Well, I, you know, um, I threw the, the first guy was highly manipulative negotiator. Uh, I, in hindsight, I now refer to him as the great corporate CEO negotiator. Uh, great corporate CEO. If you're in negotiations with him, it'll be like, oh my God, you know, my board's gonna fire me if I make a bad deal. You know, I mean, there's, my board is gonna kill me if I agree to that. You know, blaming people that are not in the room. Right. So that that guy doesn't get cornered. Diminishing his influence at the table. Because if he does that, that, that's a dude that's calling all the shots. He's just smart enough to not get cornered at the table. He's always gonna blame somebody outside the room.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  So the first bank robber at Chase was telling us how dangerous his colleagues were. And he, he kept saying like, you know, these guys are crazy. Like, you know, I, I'm scared of them. When, when he was calling all the shots. So I took a harder line with him. I was taking away his comfort level and being more confrontational without being aggressive. He gets rattled. And while he's trying to figure out what to do, hands the phone off to the other bank robber on the inside. Who does not like how this is going down. It was not part of his plan to be stuck in a bank.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Surrounded by snipers with 50 caliber guns that might, you know, uh, put a gaping hole in his forehead, which he, he would no longer could wear his favorite hat if that happened. Like, he's scared to death about getting out of there. And so I start in with them and I'm, I've still got the late night FM DJ voice. Which is calming and soothing to him. And then the real critical issues. Where somebody else on the team heard what was really bothering him. And they handed me a note. And I listened and I, and I adjusted my stance in a moment on the note and he felt so heard and understood.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Then in very short order, I was meeting him out in front of the bank. He was surrendering to me.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Wow. What was, what was on the net? We were pressuring him to let a hostage go. They had three hostages on the inside. Shocking that the hostage negotiators would be trying to let the bad guy, get the bad guys to let a hostage go.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  And the note to me said, ask him if he wants to come out.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  And in, in a blink of an eye, I switched from ask him about the hostages and letting one go to saying, do you want to come out? And his response to me was,

• 20:02Speaker 01

  I don't know how I'd do it, which is a great big giant yes. Just, just Tell me how. Get me out of here. I want out. And when, when we had him on that thread, then I completely focused on the consequences that he was looking at, how he was going to get out of there. He was most concerned about what was going to happen to him in the instant he stepped out the door. And as soon as I got enough reassurance, I almost, I almost had this guy out. And then I got another note, as it turned out from the same negotiator. And the note said, tell him you'll meet him outside.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  And I said,

• 20:46Speaker 01

  you want to just meet me out front? And he says, yeah, I'm ready to end this shit.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  And so I scrambled. I went around. I got on the bullhorn on the outside. I met him out in front of the back.

• 21:00Shaan Puri?

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• 21:41Shaan Puri?

  CEOs and business people, you know, obviously different situation than a hostage negotiation. What's the first message you try to get through to them? Let's say you have a room of 100 of the most, you know, Fortune 100 CEOs are in a room and they're all here to listen to you. You're up on the stage. What's the first thing you really want to get through to them?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  To make them aware that there's information they need that they could only get at the table.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  I remember a long time ago, somebody wrote a book. I don't know if they call it a 10 commandments of negotiation. I don't, I don't remember what it was called. But I remember taking a look at it and one of the, one of the commandments was, and which is I completely disagree with, by the way, it is what it is.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Which is

• 22:29Speaker 01

  your experience. You were not new. It's not your first rodeo. You've dealt with these people before.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  It is what it is. So I'll ask these CEOs, when are you ever in a negotiation where you don't have closely held information? You don't want to reveal to the other side, whether it's your budget, whether it's your pressures, deadlines on other deals, quarterly profits, demands from your board. When is there ever a negotiation where you don't have proprietary information that if the other side had it, it would change everything?

• 23:06Shaan Puri?

  Right. You always have.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, like all the time.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  And I go, I go, okay, so that means the other side's got that too.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Which means it isn't what it, it's not what it is.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  And the other side will tell you if they could trust you not to hurt them with it. So your first negotiation

• 23:34Speaker 01

  is trust.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Cause they got stuff if they could tell you it would change everything. And that gets people out of the perspective is I gotta make my case. Or I gotta, what's my leverage? What's their leverage? What are our giveaways? What are our, what are, what are our, um, a lot of executives say, you know, what are our must haves and what are our giveaways? Well, if they've got proprietary information that would change everything, then your must haves and your giveaways could be completely wrong.

• 24:08Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  And you have, and then, so you've got imperfect information. And what you want to do is you want to sit down and gather information.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  And trust, and then rethink what the best deal looks like. And it's really hard to get experienced executives to do that because, you know, I know the lay of landscape, this is not my first rodeo, I've seen this before. Getting them out of this is something I've seen before is a really hard thing.

• 24:35Shaan Puri?

  Right. Okay. So that's great. So I'm a, I'm an executive in that room. And I hear you and I say, okay, first of all, even though I've been through a lot of negotiations, there's more to learn. So I'm open minded to this. Secondly, I buy, I buy what you're saying, which is that if I had more perfect information, we can, we can make a better deal. That might be mutually beneficial if we were willing to trust each other. Uh, what are the simple ways to build that trust when you do meet with the other side and they're naturally initially gonna not, not just be super willing to trust you. What are the simple ways to build trust?

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Well, the, the simplest way to build trust. And gather information simultaneously.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Is nothing anybody's ever learned. Okay. So basically what they're, you're saying here is number one, I gotta build trust. Number two, I gotta get the information. So number one, build trust. Common ground. Let's find out what we have in common. Did you play little league baseball growing up? Uh, did, did your kids, you know, you're married, what are your kids doing? You know, how many times have they been married? You know, this whole common ground thing. Because they felt so good when they shared it, they didn't realize that they were squashing the other side. So there's, there's, that's one of the worst ways to build trust. Uh, and then gathering information. You're taught to gather information by asking good questions. Well, questioning somebody makes them feel cornered.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Which then diminishes trust. Cause nobody trusts you if you cornered them. Or interrogated them.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  So the, the, the counterintuitive answer is the, you know, the hostage negotiator's tried and true tool called and hostage negotiation was a motion label. Uh, in business negotiations, it's just a label.

• 26:26Speaker 01

  And I, I, I can start triggering information out of you right away if I sit down and I'll take a, a sense of you. And I said this to a colleague recently, I hadn't seen him in months. I looked at him instead of saying, hi, how are you? How are you doing today? How can I help you? Any of the how nonsensical how questions. I looked at this guy and I just, I just kind of soaked him in for about three seconds, maybe. It sounds short, but always feels like an eternity.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  And I said, you, you seem centered.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  And he sat there for a second, he said,

• 27:04Speaker 01

  you know, I just came off the mountain. And the mountain is where I go to meditate and I work out and he's into all this Asian uh philosophies and martial arts. Which makes him feel phenomenal. He said, the last time you saw me, I hadn't been on the mountain in months. And I was just wound really tight and you know, I just came off the mountain, I've been up there for about a month. Now, if I'm listening.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  He just told me a lot about himself.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  And he also told me where he's at right now.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  If I'd have sat down and said, hey, Nick, how are you? He looked at me and went, eh, fine, you?

• 27:47Shaan Puri?

  Right, right. And you did it with a observation, a label, but it was almost a compliment to it. It wasn't like you said, oh, you seem stressed out or you'd get defensive, right? You, you said you, you seem centered. Is it important if it's a positive or negative label in that way?

• 28:04Speaker 01

  It's just gotta be what it is. Like, if he just seemed stressed, I'd have said, you seem stressed. Or if he seemed stressed, uh, one I like when somebody seems stressed is it's probably that day.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  And I'll say, tough day? And you can watch them get their balance back when you say that.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  And so the observation's gotta be, you have to observe what it is because if, if they look stressed and I go like, you seem centered, then I'm an idiot.

• 28:46Shaan Puri?

  Okay, so you, you put the label to give some information. That was what, I, I, what happens next? What's, what's the next move to, to continue to build the trust?

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, I, I'll probably, I may, I may feed it back to him. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sit back and, you know, I'm gonna let it, I'm gonna let the other person talk. And then I'm, I'm gonna see if they got a next step.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  And then I'm, it's, it's a little bit like, there's gonna be a little bit of a dance here. We may need to take a circuitous route to where we both need to be.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  But if you pick the route, we'll get there faster. If I pick the route, I, you know, I don't know where, where, where you're going through. I don't know where the friction points are for you. I don't, I don't know what, I don't know what's gonna make you leery. I'm gonna let you pick the route because it's gonna be faster. So I'm gonna sit back and wait to see if you, if you pick a next step. I mean, try to trigger you to see if we can go. Is it, you know, is it ridiculous to talk about what we're here, here for?

• 29:43Speaker 01

  So you caught that question, didn't you?

• 29:46Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  It was a no oriented question.

• 29:50Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Instead of, do you want to talk about what we're here for? Which you drive for yes, because that going for yes creates friction.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  But going for no creates protection and safety.

• 30:02Shaan Puri?

  Right. No, no, it wouldn't be ridiculous for us to do that.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  There you go. Exactly. Yeah. And so that's how I want it when I, when I want to, when I want to maybe go someplace, I'll, I'll trigger the decision via no versus yes.

• 30:18Shaan Puri?

  Mm hmm. And you know, there's all these words when it comes to negotiation, the sort of classic words, you know, compromise. Uh, tell me, but tell me your thoughts on compromise.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Do you think the United States Congress is deserves an A plus rating?

• 30:38Shaan Puri?

  No.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  But they compromise all the time, don't they?

• 30:44Speaker 01

  So if you think politicians are awesome, then you think compromise is good.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  And it's a crazy thing about it because everybody preaches compromise. How do you feel about compromising your principles?

• 30:58Shaan Puri?

  Not good.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  That's it. Yeah, it's, it gives you an instantaneous uneasy feeling inside, right? So it's compromise is to by definition, make something lose, lose. And that is not compatible with a long-term relationship of trust and prosperity.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  It's, it's compatible with being a C player. Mediocrity compromise is correlates very strongly to mediocrity. And you got to decide whether or not you're good with mediocrity.

• 31:33Shaan Puri?

  And so what's the replacement to compromise? Because I don't think anybody goes in saying, I can't wait to compromise. They sort of feel like it's a necessary evil. I guess we'll have to compromise in order for us to, to agree. And I think that's where people land. They settle for that. That's the mediocrity part. So what's the more, more effective, more powerful way of thinking besides expecting to and accepting, accepting that you need to compromise?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Well, let me find out where you're, let me make you feel heard first. If I can make you feel completely heard on your position.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  My guess is more than thirty percent of the deals we made in your, in, in my favor on the spot. And about half of the deals are made on the spot. Once the other side feels completely hurt.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  But let's say, let's say it's only twenty-five percent and it's, it's well more than that. Alright, so now you've knocked out, you've just accomplished, uh, you have to negotiate twenty-five percent less because you just made the deal by making the other person feel, or just knock twenty percent of your work off the table. Now what happens to the remaining seventy-five percent? Their position's going to move closer to yours and they're going to be more honest with you about what exactly that position is. They're going to tell you what they perceive that must haves to be. They're going to move away from their throwaways right away. So I'm either going to make the deal on the spot or I'm, I'm going to find out what we really have to negotiate about immediately. Which is also going to save me a massive amount of time.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Now, there's a difference between compromise and high value trades. And, you know, I, I'm not a hundred percent sure whether or not this is a great example, but I like it. Steel is two percent carbon and ninety-eight percent iron.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  So let's imagine the carbon and iron were two negotiating factors. And they said, we got to compromise and go fifty-fifty.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Because we need, we need a fifty percent representation here. Now, in point of fact, two percent of one person's idea and ninety-eight percent of the other person's idea made a stronger ally that mankind had never seen before. So your real challenge is, what's the blend? Not the compromise. Right. What's the blend?

• 34:08Shaan Puri?

  You know, there was a guy who came on this podcast and he said something great. I don't know if this aligns with your philosophy. And he said, he told me something that really helped me in negotiating. He said, um, you know, most people when they go into negotiation, they see themselves on one side of the table and then the other person on the other side of the table. And it's sort of me versus you. And I'm tugging this one, I'm pulling this one, you're pulling that way. And he said, uh, this is a guy who buys companies. And he said, the best thing we did was we realized that, uh, that's the wrong mental model. The right mental model is me and you are sitting on the same side of the table and across the table is the problem. Maybe the problem is you think the price is X and I think it maybe is Y. You know, there's some problem that's preventing us from just doing this deal instantaneously, but it's not me versus you. It's us together jointly looking at this problem on the other side of the table.

• 34:51Shaan Puri?

  And that was a very like effective visual metaphor for me. Is that something you would, I don't know, agree with? Is that something you, you would, uh, you probably know more about that than I do?

• 34:58Speaker 01

  No, no, I agree completely. I mean, for the longest time on my side, we've always said the adversary is a situation. And what you just did was explain what that model looks like through that example. And it becomes very real when you describe it that way. And yeah, that's a very smart way to describe it.

• 35:16Shaan Puri?

  And where does leverage come in, come into this? Cause you know, when I've negotiated, I always think about, uh, you know, leverage deals, I, deals I feel, uh, you know, I do, but I'm not a hundred percent happy with, not, not too happy with. It's typically because I felt like the other side had a lot more leverage in the situation. And this was my best option to go with. It was 98% their blend and 2% mine. Um, and in other situations where I have leverage or create leverage or I apply leverage, you know, I tend to feel like I do better. But is that us, is that too simplistic? Like where, how do you think about the word leverage? Cause for me, that's always been key in negotiation.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  It's not simplistic. It's a step up from, uh, floundering entirely to, you know, and it's going to sound harsh. I mean, you get yourself to B level negotiator there. You'll never get, you'll never get yourself to A, A plus on leverage. Cause leverage is the ability to inflict harm. And if you're making deals based on the ability to inflict harm, these, these are not, those, those don't go for stable, long-term relationships. They don't go for.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  The other side, sharing information with you, that'll, that'll change everything. Because if you've got leverage, you're a threat. And why would they give you important information if you're a threat? And vice versa. How much leverage do they have on you? Holy shit, I can't give them, I can't tell them that, they'll have more leverage, oh my god. So, it can be useful in some situations, but it'll never get you to the best outcome. And because in many cases, you can talk, you can think about when you made a better deal because of leverage. Then that becomes, uh, really addicting, really satisfying. And you lose track of the deals that you should have made, but you didn't because you didn't have, thought you had leverage.

• 37:04Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  You know, the, the, it's, it's a very limiting factor. It gets you, you know, into, uh, passing grade. And it just doesn't get you to the top of the class.

• 37:18Shaan Puri?

  Gotcha. And so, uh, what does get me to the top of the class? So we've talked a little bit about it, right? I, truly listening, using labels to collect information, plus, um, make the other side feel, you know, heard and understood. What else is kind of key to get me to the, to the top of the mountain when it comes to negotiation?

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Well, what you're really negotiating, um, what, what people really don't understand is how important trust is. And trust is, um, based on your, how predictable you are. Take out the word, uh, trust to put in the word predictability, you all, you automatically become more trustworthy. Cause you're predictable. And so then, the ability to collaborate as we deal with issues, because there's always gonna be issues. You know, the, uh, the, making the deal is the beginning. You gotta get into implementation. And if we don't trust each other, then problems are gonna crop, crop up. And we're not gonna tell the other side. If we've compromised, I'm gonna resent that compromise. And when problems crop up, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut, cause it's gonna hurt you.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Because I didn't like, I didn't like the leverage you used on me. I didn't like the way you forced me into this deal. Yeah, you know what? Uh, threaten me, fine, fine.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Make me cooperate. Make me tell you about problems in the early stages as opposed to when they're turning into the landmine has gone off. It's really an issue of, you know, how we're going to do the implementation. And so the whole issue of, you know, do we start? And then, and then you're even going to talk about how we're going to cross a bridge, bridges when we get to them, because there are going to be problems. You know, I, I, I'm at a training a long time ago before the book came out, and the CEO said, this is my CFO, and I want you to teach him how to put clauses in contracts that'll penalize the other side for non-performance.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  And my thought was,

• 39:17Speaker 01

  if penalizing the other side for non-performance is your biggest problem, it started a lot sooner.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Because you're not making great deals if you, you're telling me you can't get your deals to implement it. That's what you're telling me.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  So you need to back way up and find out what the problem was well before that. Because implementation is where it's at. And if we don't trust each other, if I can't count on you to work through problems with me, it's going to cost us a lot of money.

• 39:47Shaan Puri?

  All right. This episode is brought to you by Mercury. They are the finance platform of choice for over 200,000 companies. Shouldn't be surprised because I use it myself for not one, not two, but I have eight different Mercury accounts. I have seven for different companies that I'm a part of, and then I have my own personal account, because now they have personal banking, which is a really cool feature. I highly, highly recommend it. Like I said, I use it myself. And the reason why is because the way that Mercury works is beautiful. It's very intuitive and you could tell that it's actually made by a startup founder. It's an entrepreneur. You could tell it's made by somebody who used other banking products in the past and didn't like all the different rough edges and annoyances and decided to, you know, actually fix it himself. And really, any type of entrepreneur you are, let's say you're an agency. Well, one of the things every agency has to do is be able to send invoices, easily

• 40:29Shaan Puri?

  create them, send them to customers and stay current on your balances with all your customers. Well, you can do that inside Mercury. And so I think that Mercury is great. Highly recommend you check it out and thank you for sponsoring the show. For more information, check out mercury.com. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Check show notes for details.

• 40:47Shaan Puri?

  What are some examples of kind of the great deals you've seen? Maybe the great deal makers or great deals that you've, you've seen?

• 40:55Speaker 01

  I think Oprah is a great deal maker. And visible examples of that. She gets Lance Armstrong to come on TV and answer yes or no questions. Straightforward. As to whether or not he doped and whether or not he did things. Now, I'm not acquainted with Oprah. I am acquainted with Lance and I like Lance a lot.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  And when you look at the totality of the circumstances, you get quite a different picture as opposed to somebody giving you a very narrow view. But anyway, the Lance Armstrong interview, he wasn't caught off guard by those questions.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  That was the negotiation between him and her in advance as to whether or not he was going to get on camera and what she was going to ask him. You don't see anything in the media about Lance Armstrong being upset with Oprah Winfrey.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Which means they negotiated a great deal upfront that they were both good with and then they executed it. And it was no bad blood after the fact. That, to me, that's a great deal. And that's an example and a reason why. And also, and if you look at the totality of Oprah. Think about the fact that she's dealt with some of the most difficult to handle people on earth celebrities. Who are used to getting their way at all times. And she isn't, she, she doesn't have any dust up city arguments with any of them.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Now, how is that possible? When in today's day and age, celebrities love to have feuds with each other all the time as a way to gather attention. But that's not her method of operation and her success is extraordinary. Especially thinking about where she started. And I, I'd take, I'd take a very small percentage of her network and be quite happy.

• 42:54Shaan Puri?

  Do you have a sense of what she does or how, how she accomplishes that?

• 42:57Speaker 01

  You know, the interesting thing is it's very similar to what we did in the Chase Manhattan Bank because I was talking about a woman. Talked with a woman in Los Angeles several years ago to work for Oprah and I'm laying all this out. And I said, the last impression is the lasting impression. We did it. Lieutenant did it by instinct at the Chase Bank. I found out later on from, I was at a Gallup poll conference on human nature, you know, the Gallup poll, the longtime collectors of polling data, of course, they're sitting on decades of human performance information. And this one speaker stands up and says, people don't remember things how they happened. They remember, and they don't remember how it started.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  They remember the most intense moment and how it ended. The last impression is the lasting impression. So I'm laying this on my colleague who worked for Oprah and she says, oh yeah, Oprah's lived by that all of her whole life. She said, in the entertainment business, the joke is in an limo, out in a taxi. As soon as they get what they want from you, you know, you're out hitching out front, finding your own way out. But at Oprah, it was in an limo, out in a limo. And the philosophy was no matter what happened on any interaction, no matter what, you had to make sure they felt respected, heard, appreciated and loved at the very end.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  And I've had several conversations related to me when Oprah didn't see something eye to eye with somebody else. And her last words are, well, always, no matter what, I will always love you and I will always be supportive of you.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  And the last impression is the lasting impression. And she's, she's a master of.

• 44:37Shaan Puri?

  How do you prep for an interview, for a negotiation? So you'll say you're going to go try to make a deal. And some people have this idea of like, what's it called, BATNA, where the best alternative to whatever, you know, they, they sort of think about their, their desired outcome. And then the worst case scenario, they're going to accept. Other people do lots of research and they try to, try to, you know, find as much as they can about the other party to be, you know, fully armed when they walk in. Um, some people do power moves. How, how do you prepare for, for something that's a negotiation in the business sense, in the business context?

• 45:10Speaker 01

  It's going to be a combination of two things. I'm the, first of all, I'm going to think about, um, what negatives you're going to harbor about me in advance.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  And I'm and I'm not gonna and everybody, everybody's got that actually interestingly enough, everybody could do this right away, even if it's a first interaction. What are the things you want to deny? I don't want you to think that I'm gonna be greedy. I don't, I don't want you to think I'm, I'm another slimy salesperson. I don't want you to think that I'm here to maximize my opportunity. I don't want you to think I'm, I'm wasting your time. That, uh, I always tell people, what would you want to deny walking in? That's your gut instinct telling you a negative is there. And you make the shift from a denial to the straight observation. But I'm probably gonna seem greedy. I'm probably just gonna seem like another slimy salesperson. I'm probably gonna seem like somebody that's wasting your time.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  That then instantly makes me the straight shooter. The hon- honest person.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  And so I'm gonna think about what negatives you're gonna, you are likely harboring. Because the brain is 75% negative and that's the fastest way to, for me to build a relationship, deactivate the negatives and make me look like a straight shooter, which increases your trust in me.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  And then there's gonna be some stuff that you're gonna be thinking about. That you're gonna be offended if I don't appreciate.

• 46:36Speaker 01

  And you're gonna be offended if I don't appreciate how hard you work.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Um, the fact that,

• 46:44Speaker 01

  that I'm talking to you at all means you have value.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  And that you have legitimate reasons in your own right to be respected and admired.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  And it's taking what a lot of people would refer to as flattery. But then articulating that it's not vacuous flattery. It's genuine appreciation from where you're coming from. And I might say something like, you worked very hard to get to where you are today. You have been in this business for a very long time. And you know what you're doing. Otherwise, if you didn't, you wouldn't be sitting here in front of me at all. And you have things that are valuable and worthy of my attention and of my respect. And you put those two things together and you kind of got empathy.

• 47:34Shaan Puri?

  Hmm. That's what you were calling tactical empathy earlier?

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. Cause there's, there's brain science that backs up that approach, particularly starting with the negatives before the positives.

• 47:48Shaan Puri?

  Right. And why is it so important for, I mean, this is going to sound like a dumb question, but like, it, it just seems like it's the most important thing. So I want to talk a little bit more about it, which is, why is it so important for somebody to feel understood and heard? And why do we defy, it seems like what we default to is, I can't wait to make my case so that you understand me and I feel heard, right? And like, it seems like the biggest swing I could make as a negotiator is to let go of my need of that, or at least initial need of that, and really hone in on your need for that. And if I just did that one switch, I'm a much better, a much better trust builder and therefore

• 48:28Shaan Puri?

  a much better negotiator. Uh, when it comes, is that the right summary from what you said?

• 48:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, it really is. And it's fascinating to think about the fact that people come to the table with such a desire to be heard and to make their case. They can't imagine that's what's driving the other side.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  It's blinding. And neuroscience wise, what differences would make to make somebody feel heard? I will trigger the release in you of your neurochemicals, oxytocin and serotonin.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  If you get a hit of oxytocin and interacting with me, you're going to bond with me and you're going to be far more honest with me. Oxytocin, it's bonding and truth. Serotonin is a drug of satisfaction, which means you're going to be less demanding. So if I can make you feel heard, you bond with me, you're more honest with me and you're less demanding. It's a pretty good start for a negotiation.

• 49:36Shaan Puri?

  How does, uh, how does Chris Voss, you know, buy a car? How do you do in just day-to-day, everyday situations? Have you had any, uh, any, uh, implementation of any of your techniques that on like the low-stake stuff? We've seen the Houston negotiation, but like, what do you do when you're on Craigslist? Do you need a couch or you're, you know, you're at the market?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, I, I tell the other side, um, why what they are selling is worth what they're asking. You know, I make their case. Cause that's what they're gonna say to me. So what I've done is I've just now left them with nothing to say.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  And then, like, see, I can, I can, I can, I can pound you down on price. I mean, I, I, in the, I still, if I choose to be, I can be, I can really pound you down. But I better never need to come back to you for anything. And there are a few deals that are complete one-offs. So if I'm buying a car, depending upon who I'm buying it from, I will tell you, I do not have great regard for car dealerships across the board.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  I no longer ever get any vehicle I own serviced at a car dealership. I don't care what the warranty says because I don't trust them. So I don't mind pounding down a car dealer.

• 51:11Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  I got no problem with that.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  And I, and I will do that to them. I will, I will make their case and then I will become very passive aggressive. And, you know, my favorite is how am I supposed to, how am I supposed to pay that?

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Well, you would have said all the things that I just got done saying. If I hadn't said it first. But now, if I said, oh, if I, if I took away all the wind out of your sails, took all the bullets out of your gun. Then, when I give you the opportunity to point the gun at me, you got empty, you got empty chambers. You got nothing to say. And I know, and you're dealing on a margin and, and, and in real short order, I'm gonna get you down to your bottom line. Uh, and then, if I like it, we'll make a deal. If I don't, I'm walking out. But I better not, I better, I better not ever need to come back to you because once I've killed you on price, you are not gonna forget that and you are not gonna lift a finger to help me ever again.

• 52:08Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 52:12Shaan Puri?

  Okay. What about other, um, sort of day-to-day negotiations? This is, I, I got little kids. I have a five-year-old, a four-year-old and a one-year-old. And so my, my most frequent negotiation is with them. And I'm just curious, do you have any, uh, parenting negotiation tips? Maybe it's just don't negotiate at all, but, uh, I don't know, I find myself in that pickle a lot.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Oh, well, you know, with your kids. This is, you know, there are ages, um, for thinking, if you will. But you're, what you're really trying to do is, as a, as a parent, is help your kids think. And so recognizing where they are in the stages. I heard a long time ago, up to age five, treat a kid like a king. Five to 15, you know, work them like an indentured servant. At 15, let them go.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  There's a lot of brain science that, that overlaps very closely with that in the development of the brain.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  But all along the way is you, you want your kids to feel slightly challenged and you want them to get them to think. Now, do they have the ability to process that? At about age four slash five, six, they start to cross over into ages where they're starting to process that.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  And what a lot of parents want to do is just order kids around like go to bed because I'm dad I'm why because I said so I'm because I'm the father that's why.

• 53:38Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Well, that's not that's not really helping them think. Um, it's demonstrating to them that the only way you can get stuff done is by through use of force. That doesn't mean you want to put up with bad behavior either. There's, you know, one of my favorite videos is some, you know, this mom trying to talk her five year old son into getting in the into backseat of the SUV. And she's come on, you know, and he's crying and making noise and his nine year old sister walks up and grabs him and throws him in the SUV and they get up, they they leave. You know, at some point in time, you got to toss the kid in the car.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Um, but in the meantime, you know, your, your, your job as a parent is to help them think. And and it's not to shield them.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  But it's to challenge them and make them better people, help them think.

• 54:28Shaan Puri?

  And after all these years of helping people be better negotiators and you teach certain, you know, techniques and certain frameworks for for this. What do you think is the most easy to implement of all of the frameworks, meaning the easiest way to get points on the board and start the process of improving in this area?

• 54:49Speaker 01

  Well, it it's really going to be the different ways to repeat back to somebody what they just said. Um, you know, label your, your focusing on their emotions or affect.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Mirrors and paraphrases focuses specifically on what they said. It seems like it's a waste of time. And it ends up being a relationship accelerator, which then is a deal making accelerator. So how do you do it? Um, the more you can make somebody feel heard, the less you could be a threat. And yeah, sometimes charm is involved. Charm and empathy are very close.

• 55:27Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  But who's the most interesting at the table? If I make you think I'm the most interesting person. Okay, cool. We had a great conversation, but are we going to make great deals? Now, if I made you think you're the most interesting person.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Our likelihood for collaboration is very high.

• 55:45Shaan Puri?

  Right. And how do you find that balance or do you need a balance between like my business partner, Ben, he's like this, he goes into a lunch, he asks so many questions because he's genuinely curious and he's, he tends to know a lot about the other person and what they're interested in because he's paid attention. He observes and he remembers what they said, he remembers where they went and he's just, so he'll feed them things that he knows they're interested in, not to manipulate them, he's just, that's like who he is. I don't know, it's his nature is to be that way. And he leaves the lunch and they've talked 98% of the time, he's talked 2% of the time. He's asked them a couple of questions that he knows everything about them, they know nothing about him. And they go, this was amazing, we got to do this again.

• 56:27Shaan Puri?

  This was one of the best, this was so fun. I would love to do this again. And you know, he comes back. At the same time, I'm curious if there's a sort of a downside to going too far in that direction where, you know, you haven't sort of demonstrated value or, you know, provided the other side with an, you know, sort of a, almost like a, in tech, like an API connection, like an ability to understand what your needs are and how they might be able to help or intersect with what you, what you do. Is there a danger in going too far down the kind of like, let the other side talk route?

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Uh, well, first of all, curiosity is a superpower. Um, like it, and it, it, like it is a superpower. Like it's ridiculous where it shows up in terms of your survival, their survival, long-term relationships, your resilience, your ability to discover new things. Like curiosity, I can tell you so many different ways it's a superpower. So now what's the danger? At some point in time, you got to keep in mind while we're talking. And if you get too curious, then we have a finite amount of time. We got an hour together. Uh, if I, if we got an hour together and we get nothing accomplished, what are you going to remember? You really enjoyed the conversation, but we didn't get

• 57:43Speaker 01

  anything done. So you might feel like it was a waste of your time. You have to be aware of the progress that has to be made. And I, my team, what we always do is we set finite periods of time for meetings, period. And we never go over. It doesn't matter where we are.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  We'll, we'll set another meeting before we'll go over a meeting because time is this commodity is so limited. That if I don't help you manage your time and your interactions with me, then pretty soon you're going to start avoiding me.

• 58:16Shaan Puri?

  Well, speaking of, you seem like a guy who is very conscious of his time. I want to make sure. Wait, it looks like we're 11 minutes over. So I want to make sure.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  I didn't mind. I enjoyed the conversation. I do want to tell some people about some stuff.

• 58:29Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, tell, please.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  So we've started this new thing called the Black Swan Negotiation Community and you go to our website and find it. And it really is an across the board. Amazon, one stop shopping for where you are in your negotiation journey. You can't afford anything.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Come into the community because membership is free and get started. Getting a return on the investment of your time in terms of dollars. So, you know, get started on your journey. A incremental change could be monumental very quickly.

• 59:10Shaan Puri?

  Awesome. Well, Chris, thank you so, so much for coming on also for, I don't know, all the content that you've put out over the years. I've always picked and, picked and chewed on different little bits of it, especially whenever I was in the process of either raising money or selling my company. It was these very brief periods of time, maybe three weeks, four weeks, six, six weeks where the value of my years of effort would swing by 50%, depending on how good I was at negotiating and understanding, you know, the other side and being able to find a mutual beneficial deal. So it's one of these arts where it can make a really big difference in a very small amount of time being, you know, the difference between being bad at it versus good at it versus great at it. And so I, I appreciate you coming on and helping us be a little better at it today.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  That was a pleasure. I enjoyed the conversation.

• 1:00:05Shaan Puri?

  All right, let's take a quick break because as you know, we are on the HubSpot Podcast Network, but we're not the only ones. There's other podcasts on this network too. And maybe you liked it. Maybe you should check them out. One of them that I want to draw your attention to is called Nudge by Phil Agnew. And whether you're a marketer or a salesperson and you're looking for the small changes you could make, the new habits you could do, the, the small decisions you could make that will make a big difference. That's what that podcast is all about. Check it out. It's called Nudge and you can get it wherever you get your podcasts.