106. The House of Dreams

Dubner's childhood home goes from sacred to profane -- and then back again.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 0:33Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:04Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:48Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 1:54Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 2:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  You know what I love? I love a good boomerang story. "What's a boomerang story," you say? All right, here, I'll tell you one. This one's about the price of horse manure. So back in the 19th century, when cities around the world began to grow like crazy, they were mostly powered by horse. There were more than 200,000 horses in New York City alone. Now, all those horses produced about five tons of manure a day. When the cities were smaller, there had been a healthy market for manure because farmers from the surrounding area would buy it as fertilizer. But as cities grew and took on more and more horses, there came to be a manure glut. The price of manure fell from strong positive to zero, and then to negative.

• 3:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  You actually had to pay somebody to get rid of the manure. Now, not surprisingly, most people weren't willing to pay to have their manure taken away, so it piled up on the streets. It was a nightmare in every way. It was a health hazard. It stank. It made it hard to get around. Thankfully, the automobile and the electric streetcar came along and replaced the horse as the engine of cities. Decades passed. The horse population declined, so therefore did the supply of horse manure. What rose, however, was a boom in home gardening and, among a certain type of connoisseur,

• 3:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  a demand for primo fertilizer, like horse manure. So today, a 25-pound bag of manure mulch can sell for about $15. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a boomerang story. Something that starts out in one place and then goes far away, and then ends up right back where it began. On today's show, another boomerang story. This one is about a house. My house. The House of Dreams.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  From WNYC and APM, American Public Media, this is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 5:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I grew up in an old farmhouse in upstate New York, outside of Albany, in the back of beyond. The nearest town was called Quaker Street. There was one stoplight, a general store, a diner. There were eight kids in my family, four girls and four boys. I was the youngest, so even Stephen. I loved my family, and I loved my house. So years later, after I'd gone off to college and my mom had sold the house, when the terrible thing happened to it, I took it hard. I asked my oldest sister, whose name is Mona, to help me tell the story.

• 5:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey Mona, you there?

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hey Stephen, how's it going?

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Stephen, great. How are you doing?

• 5:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm good. Family okay?

• 5:51Speaker 02

  All real good. How about yours?

• 5:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Everybody's good. Looking forward to seeing you soon.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, same here.

• 5:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, as you know, I'm thinking about doing a radio show on our house.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  The house.

• 6:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  The house.

• 6:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  I always think of the house as like the 11th member of the family. I don't know about you.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  I think of it as the house.

• 6:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  Capital T, capital H.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 6:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  It was a big, drafty, white farmhouse, tin roof, asbestos shingles, everything falling apart a little bit, sitting on 36 acres of not very arable land. We were a big, rambunctious family, lots of kids, lots of animals, a lot of activity. I think we all have our favorite memories, our favorite room in the house. Here's how my sister Mona remembers it.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  The kitchen, because that's where I remember, I mean, besides having to eat liver and onions and stuff like that. I remember our family dinners, our family meals, Sunday breakfast after church, Mom making waffles, and all of us kids, you know, would sit around the table. I remember Dad putting ketchup on his steak. It was family time there. You know, us feeding the dogs under the table, some of the food we didn't really like. But it was family time. And I think I've always, always valued, and I know I've always loved the family. The other favorite spot was the other side where our big old piano was.

• 7:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  And Mom and Dad would encourage us to play our clarinets and play the piano and sing. So again, it was togetherness. Plus, that room held the TV, which we could watch Sunday Night Ed Sullivan, that type of thing.

• 7:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  I always think, whenever I drive by, I think of how in the summer, sometimes the whole Mom and Dad would round us up to all recite the rosary in the afternoon on the lawn there.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Kneeling in the grass, right. That image is imprinted in my brain, too.

• 8:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 8:12Stephen J. Dubner?

  We were a very, very Catholic family. Now, my parents were both born as Jews in Brooklyn, but before they met each other, they each converted to Catholicism. And like a lot of converts, whether it's religion, or politics, or the former smoker who used to smoke three packs a day, they were extremely devout about their new faith. And so we were too. So I, like my brothers before me, was an altar boy from about the age of four. We prayed a lot. We obeyed the teachings of the Catholic Church, for the most part at least. And holidays, like Christmas, they weren't just holidays, they were holy days, celebrated in the religious spirit. So the house itself, or "the house," as my sister Mona calls it, it felt kind

• 8:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  of consecrated. And that's why it was so strange, so unsettling, when we learned that something so profane had happened there after we moved. I talked to Chris Wolfe, an old family friend, who still runs the local general store.

• 9:14Stephen J. Dubner?

  Now, so we should just say, I used to work for you back in my early teens at your general store, Wolf's Market, Quaker Street, New York. I stocked shelves and I mopped floors, I mowed the lawn. I don't think I was a very good employee, honestly.

• 9:30Speaker 03

  Well, you were on time and you were clean and you did your job and you never gave me any trouble.

• 9:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Mm-hmm. It's not exactly a ringing endorsement, but that's all right. I'll take it.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  That's a good endorsement. And you were good to the people, you know. Everybody liked you.

• 9:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Quaker Street is a small town, obviously, and Chris Wolfe eventually hears about, just about anything that's going on there, including what happened to my house.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  Well, when we first heard about your mom selling the house, you know, after your dad had passed away, and she was there for a while, and then she sold it. And then this couple took it over. And then it wasn't for a little while that we were there that we found out that, and through the grapevine around here, as small towns have grapevines, that it was being turned into an adult swinging house.

• 10:31Stephen J. Dubner?

  Oh, God.

• 10:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yep, that's right. My house, my very proper house with my very Catholic family, was sold off to a couple who turned it into a swingers' house, a sex club, a sex farm. They called it the House of Dreams.

• 11:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on Freakonomics Radio. Things get worse at the House of Dreams before they get better.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  You could write your sexual fantasy and send it in with a deposit or a big check, and then they would accommodate your fantasy.

• 12:07Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 12:52Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 13:10Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 13:54Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 14:17Speaker 01

  From WNYC and APM, American Public Media, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 14:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  So I've known Chris Wolfe since I was a kid. I used to work at the general store that she ran and still runs with her husband, Denny. Chris was the one who first told me about my family's old house. So, Chris, I remember how I first found out that my beloved old house had been turned into a sex club. Do you remember? Which was several years after it'd been going, I should say.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, you were really upset.

• 14:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you remember? So do you remember that day I came back home?

• 14:56Speaker 03

  Yes, I do.

• 14:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  And I came into the store and I said, hey, Chris, we're catching up. And I think I just said something like, you know, how's the house? You know, it's this house I lived in forever. And you said, you don't know? And I said, know what? And you're like, oh, boy.

• 15:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  At one point, Chris told me she got hold of an application for the House of Dreams. I asked her what kind of information they wanted.

• 15:23Speaker 03

  Well, of course, you know, your name, your address. I didn't want to know your social security number, that's for sure. And so then they said they wanted to know what your preferences were.

• 15:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  Your sexual preferences, right?

• 15:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Sexual preferences, your race, how much you made.

• 15:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Were you supposed to attach a picture?

• 15:49Speaker 03

  A picture, yeah. And some of these people that came in, some of these guys that used to come in, used to have their hair slicked back, you know, with that greasy stuff. And you'd have like striped shirts and wet pants. I mean, it was a riot.

• 16:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  So they stuck out a little bit in little old Quaker Street, yeah?

• 16:07Speaker 03

  Kind of, yeah. But it was quite a, and you know, a lot of people around here tried to close it down. But, and I know the cops went up there, you know, some of the BCI boys went up there. And they'd come down and they'd talk to us. And I said, "Well, what are you going to do about that? There's nothing we can do about it because it's consenting adults."

• 16:31Speaker 02

  You really want to know the details I found out?

• 16:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's my sister Mona again.

• 16:34Speaker 02

  A couple of years before Mom died, you told me about it, so I started researching it. And what I remember is, this is what you could do. You could write your fantasy, your sexual fantasy, and send it in with a deposit or a big check. And then they would accommodate your fantasy. That's all I remember from researching it. I've probably blocked other stuff out. And then I remember thinking, "I'm just gonna kill them. Our bedroom, the girls' bedroom, is involved in this." We were the most pure girls in the area.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  We were raised strictly and morally and, you know, nothing like that ever went on in the house when we lived there. And now it was like a desecration and a huge slap in the face to our family and to the house. I was upset for the house, strange as that might sound.

• 17:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  I didn't think that sounded strange at all. I was upset for the house, too, and for us, for my mom especially. We weren't sure what to tell her, if anything. We debated whether we should maybe just keep it a secret, but I decided it was wrong somehow to hold out this information that she might hear from somebody else. And the amazing thing is, when we did tell her, she handled it better than any of us. She said, "You know, it's just a house. The house wasn't us, wasn't the family. We were the family. The house was just sticks and stones." Now, I want to believe this, that a house has no allegiance to the people who live in it. But I couldn't quite get there.

• 18:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  It still hurt, and my sister Mona felt pretty much the same way. So this is, you know, I know we're just two people in the world who don't amount to a hill of beans or anything, but I still maintain that this was, at one point, the saddest story in the world.

• 18:50Speaker 02

  I totally agree with you.

• 18:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  It was, it really was our house, The House, as you call it, the 11th member of the family. And if it were to end here, the story would be the dang saddest story ever.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'd still be very, very angry. Although, you know, I've learned to let go of that.

• 19:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  You have not. You so have not.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  I've learned how to deal with it, okay? Yeah, thanks, okay.

• 19:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  But that's not the end of the story.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  No, right. What a lovely surprise.

• 19:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  It turns out that just recently, The House got back to being a home.

• 19:34Speaker 04

  You can go first, babe.

• 19:37Speaker 05

  Aaron Urdin, work for distribution center at Walmart and playing a rock band.

• 19:46Speaker 05

  I guess that pretty much sums me up.

• 19:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, hang on, you're not only a proud homeowner, but also a home renovator.

• 19:53Speaker 05

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 19:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a very good one.

• 19:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, unbelievably good. Okay, Danica, your turn.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  My name is Danica Lynn. I work for the New York State Tax Department. And as you know, in my spare time, I love to renovate homes and I like to paint and do stained glass and mosaics.

• 20:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  This past summer, I was upstate with my wife and kids, visiting Mona and her family. And we decided to take a drive out to Quaker Street. We wanted to visit the cemetery where my parents are buried, stop in at Wolf's Market, maybe even drive by the house. Now, I had tried this once before with my kids a few years ago. The guy who answered the door was the sex club guy. And even though I played dumb, just told him I grew up there and I only wanted now my kids to see the house, he shooed me away. So this time, we planned just to drive past the house. But my son, Solomon, when he saw the house, he really, really, really wanted to knock on the door, meet the people who live there, maybe take a look around.

• 21:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Mona and my wife and I are all looking at each other. No, bad idea. But Solomon was insistent. It was a Sunday morning, about 11 o'clock. And I figure, what the hell? So we parked in the driveway. There was only one car there, good sign, no sex party going on. And I gave a knock, expecting, of course, the sex club guy again. But it wasn't him. It was this nice young couple, Erin and Danica.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  You turned around, someone had opened the door, you turned around and, I wish I recorded what you said, it was so cute, said something like, "Come on in, they're friendly here," or something like that. Do you remember what you said?

• 21:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  What I think I said was, "Hey, it's new owners and they're not jerks."

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 21:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  But that may...

• 21:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  The new owners, Danica and Aaron, are very much not jerks. They're nice and talented people who, it turns out, love old houses, especially our old house. They're renovating it beautifully.

• 22:05Speaker 05

  And we jumped right over all the things that we thought we had to do right away and dived right into opening archways up and ripping floors up. Our most recent project is that porch where the jacuzzi was at one point. That room is going to be an actual living room soon. We've reframed walls, redone the entire floor. We actually removed the two sliding doors that were kind of dilapidated and put in a single French door for our back entrance.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  When you walk in through the French doors, it just has that just openness, you know, and it's like a breath of fresh air.

• 22:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  As happy as we were to know that our house was in good hands, Danica and Aaron were happy to know that a nice family used to live here before it was a sex club. They wanted to hear our stories about the game closet and the hallway where my sisters used to talk on the phone to their boyfriends and about the upstairs bathroom that my brother Peter turned into a darkroom. And us being us, not exactly a shy family, we told them everything.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  I was ecstatic with this young couple. What they were doing to the house was gorgeous and it was wiping out any remnants of the sex club, but it was really, they were restoring this house to a, say, a former glory or a current glory that our family couldn't do because of lack of finances and time and talent, maybe.

• 23:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah. And having eight kids running around.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 23:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Right? I mean, yeah, they were just, everything they could do to just keep everything together.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  So that, it was like a trip down memory lane painted with a modern brush. It's hard to explain because they... The rooms were all still there. Here's Joe's room. Here's the girl's room. Steven, here's the alcove where you were. Oh, look, the upstairs bathroom works now. Wow. It was amazing. And I think gave all of us that day, especially you and I, a sense of real happiness over this house.

• 24:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  So that's my boomerang story. I know it's not as dramatic as the horse manure story, but I hope you find it instructive, the tale of my old house becoming an orgy castle. If nothing else, it tweaks the old conventional wisdom. You know, Thomas Wolfe, no relation to Wolfe's Market, by the way, writing, "You can't go home again"? Well, actually, you can go home again. Sometimes, you just have to wait a while.

• 25:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up on the next Freakonomics Radio, how much does a boss, especially a good boss, actually matter? Does a good boss make you more productive? We can opine all we want, but wouldn't it be nice to actually have some data on the topic? Hey, people, we've got the data. That's next time on Freakonomics Radio.

• 25:37Speaker 01

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• 26:12Stephen J. Dubner?

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• 27:39Stephen J. Dubner?

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