Pod Insights Pablo Torre Finds Out Exclusive: The NFL Players' Union, the Silenced Top Cop and the Cabal of "Strip-Club Dreams" About this episode As the NFLPA plots to restore its scandal-plagued leader to power, the labor group's outgoing lead security officer sits down with Pablo. And Craig Jones — the conscience of a billion-dollar union — does not hold back.
Previously on PTFO:
• Part I: The NFL's Secret Collusion Case Revealed https://pod.link/1685093486/episode/OTUzMzJiMTItODRkZC0xMWYwLWFjNDUtN2I3OGMwY2IwMGRl
• Part II: We Sparked an NFL Union Crisis. Here's the Sequel. https://pod.link/1685093486/episode/OTUzMjFjNjgtODRkZC0xMWYwLWFjNDUtODcwNGEwMDY3MDgw
• Part III: We Followed the Money in the NFL Union Scandal. So Did the FBI. https://pod.link/1685093486/episode/OTUzMzUyNzItODRkZC0xMWYwLWFjNDUtY2IzYmEzNzJkZjkw
• Part IV: The NFL Union Elected a New Leader. We Investigated the Hollywood Cover-Up They Ignored. https://pod.link/1685093486/episode/OTUyOTYzNjYtODRkZC0xMWYwLWFjNDUtYmY2MjE1Y2U4MDUw
(Pablo Torre Finds Out is independently produced by Meadowlark Media and distributed by The Athletic. The views, research and reporting expressed in this episode are solely those of Pablo Torre Finds Out and do not reflect the work or editorial input of The Athletic or its journalists.)
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Transcript 9,336 words · 13 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Pablo Torre? Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out, presented by eBay Live. I am Pablo Torre, and today you're going to find out what this sound is.
0:08 Speaker 01 Tell J.C. Tretta to spend his 30 pieces of silver wisely.
0:13 Pablo Torre? Right after this ad.
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1:54 Pablo Torre? This is the first time we've met in person. We just shook hands minutes ago. We spoke for the first time on the phone a couple of weeks ago, but I've heard a lot about you. I've heard you're a legend. And it is a le-- I mean, it's an amazing, it's an amazing life you've lived. Do you mind if you establish here at the top, how old are you, Mr. Craig Jones?
2:18 Speaker 01 I am 71 years old.
2:20 Pablo Torre? Your job, Craig, your job title at the union was what? And how long did you have that title?
2:28 Speaker 01 I was the lead security officer. I was a special police officer. And I was hired first in October of 08. And then after two years being there as a contractual employee, the esteemed Timothy Christine, who was my security director, brought me on in 2010 to work as the lead security officer for the union as an employee. I got there two months after Gene Upshaw had passed away. And so everybody was telling me what his methodology was. And that was to truly, truly care
3:11 Speaker 01 and to speak plainly to the powers that needed to be spoken to so they can care as well. And then when the intellectually pugilistic Demora Smith came on, then that continued to elevate the game on how we were every day to come in with the very best of ourselves.
3:33 Pablo Torre? So for people who have never visited the NFLPA headquarters in Washington DC, where you worked for almost two decades, what does it look like? Can you paint the picture for us of the building?
3:44 Speaker 01 Well, the building that I'm in is in what they call the Golden Triangle, Washington DC, which is the business area of Washington DC, K Street, Connecticut Avenue. It's a modern building, but it doesn't bring any attention to itself because of the way that it was architecturally drawn. The simplicity of all of the buildings on that street is what brings about the elegance. One of the last weeks I was working there, there was a security guard having a problem across the street with someone. And I went across the street and asked him, was everything okay? Did he need any assistance? And he saw my work badge. He said, "The NFLPA." He said, "What is that?" I said, "That's who I work for." He said, "The NFLPA?"
4:28 Speaker 01 I said, "Yeah, it's right across the street in that building right there." And he said, "I'd be damned. I've been here for eight years and I never knew what was going on at that building."
4:38 Pablo Torre? You're describing this building literally like the person who swore to protect it with his life.
4:45 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
4:46 Pablo Torre? And when you say, you know, "The NFLPA," like someone wouldn't even know that it was there. I mean, there's a larger metaphor there, I think, for how sports fans understand the union, which is to say, they know it's kinda there somewhere, but it's rare that they really get an inside view of like, what happens here? Why does this matter? Why should I care? I am a fan of the most popular sport in America, the National Football League. I love football. But now that I've done so much reporting on it, it's crazy how much less we think about how important and fraught the union itself is. And yet, your response is pride.
5:24 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
5:25 Pablo Torre? The term that multiple former NFL players and NFL Players Association union leaders have used to describe you in my previous reporting is that you're the conscience of the NFLPA. What does that mean to you?
5:40 Speaker 01 That means the world to me because my parents, we grew up during the civil rights era. And my parents would always say to myself and my six sisters, "When it's time for you to stand up for what is right, not only for yourself, but most importantly, for other people," Raise your hand and do so. And because I was protecting people, I don't get do-overs. So I have to be on point every day. There was a famous sports photographer by the name of Kaz Mici, who used to be at all of the boxing matches. And he once told me that the reason why your pictures seem to be too late or too early
6:25 Speaker 01 is because you gotta know when the proper moment is. And in security work and protecting people, you have to know the moment before the actuality if someone's trying to harm people. And so I found that people began to say, you know, this Mr. Jones, he's something else.
6:43 Pablo Torre? You're more comfortable than I imagined, given how many people are afraid, Craig, to do this, which is to sit down, talking to a microphone about the things you saw at the NFLPA.
6:56 Speaker 01 I think the reason why so many people are afraid is because there were people who had livelihoods. And they knew that the new regime that came in under Lloyd How was more of, we will punish you for you speaking the truth.
7:19 Pablo Torre? Yes.
7:20 Speaker 01 When the new regime came in, they weren't interested in what we knew. They were only interested in what they wanted to perpetrate.
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9:28 Pablo Torre? One of the richest labor unions in America is up for grabs right now. With total assets, according to the NFLPA's latest federal filing, of more than $1.3 billion. And oversight of that fortune belongs to the union's executive director, one of the highest-stakes jobs in all of sports. You get a seven-figure salary to serve as the direct counterpoint to NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, sitting in labor negotiations for the most popular cultural institution in America.
10:02 Pablo Torre? But the last executive director the union elected, you may recall, in 2023.
10:08 Pablo Torre? Was Lloyd Howell. Lloyd Howell resigned amid a corruption scandal as reported on this show last July.
10:16 Speaker 05 NFL Players Association Executive Director Lloyd Howell resigned late Thursday, ending his two-year tenure as the leader of the players' union.
10:25 Speaker 06 It has come out now, of all the things that have been coming out about him, which caused his haste resignation, that he had been sending in expense reports for trips to the strip club.
10:37 Speaker 07 He submitted a statement, "It's clear that my leadership has become a distraction to the important work the NFLPA advances every day."
10:49 Pablo Torre? But it wasn't just Lloyd Howell who had to resign, of course. His top lieutenant, former Browns lineman J.C. Tretter, stepped down just three days after that. And now, with the election of the union's next executive director underway officially as we speak, the same regime responsible for that scandal last summer is on the cusp of power again.
11:15 Speaker 01 It at best is scandalous. They want to reinstate people in positions of power and governance who have already proven time and time again that they lack ethics. I immediately said to myself, "They want to keep the strip club dreams going. They want to keep the party going. They want to maintain the niceties that they were affording to themselves at the expense of the players."
11:51 Pablo Torre? And the players, it is worth remembering here, were kept in the dark by Lloyd Howell and J.C. Tretter when it came to the very thing that kicked off this entire saga on this show last June, which is when we published what one union source called "The Holy Grail of NFL Documents," a 61-page collusion ruling that had been buried, covered up, as part of a secret confidentiality agreement between leadership at the NFL and the NFLPA. Because back in January of 2025, it turned out, an arbiter had delivered a partial victory in favor of the union that concluded that the NFL had encouraged teams to collude against their players.
12:37 Pablo Torre? "There is little question that the NFL Management Council, with the blessing of the commissioner, encouraged the 32 NFL clubs to reduce guarantees in veterans' contracts at the March 2022 Annual Owners Meeting."
12:53 Pablo Torre? The arbiter, a retired federal judge, did not find damages, but he included private texts and emails and closed-door testimony from eight billionaire owners, plus NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell, on top of a whole roster of league and union executives, including J.C. Tretter. It was this all-you-can-eat buffet of truly embarrassing discovery around the free agency of star quarterbacks Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, and Russell Wilson, none of whom were ultimately offered fully guaranteed contracts, even though Cleveland had just given one to Deshaun Watson, as my special guest, Pro Football Talk's Mike Florio, helped relay. I need you to play the role of Chargers owner Dean Spanos
13:38 Pablo Torre? and I'll be Cardinals owner Michael Bidwell, if you please. Congratulations on signing Murray. Thanks, Dino. These QB deals are expensive, but we limited the fully guaranteed money and have some pretty good language. Thankfully, we have a QB that's worth paying. Your deal helps us for our quarterback next year. I think many teams will be happy with it once they have a chance to review. Cleveland really screwed things up, but I was resolved to keep the guaranteed, relatively, quote, "low," unquote. And yet, the most shocking part wasn't that the NFL wanted to bury all of these communications. It's that Roger Goodell found a cover-up partner in the regime of Lloyd Howell,
14:22 Pablo Torre? whose strip club receipts would prove relevant to a larger, ongoing federal investigation, and J.C. Tretter, the ex-player president who engineered Howell's election only to try and wash his hands of it. Not least, I am told, because J.C. Tretter now is back and somehow favored to secure the job he's been targeting this entire time: Executive Director of the NFLPA.
14:52 Pablo Torre? But one employee who refused in writing to be complicit with any of this was the union's lead security officer, Mr. Craig Jones.
15:05 Speaker 01 My employment with the NFLPA ended, I call it a termination and retaliation, on February 13th of 2026. I was told that the reasons were for cause. And in my work contract, they have cause defined as things that an individual would do that would violate policy and procedure in the workplace. And the causes were three emails. But in the 17 years that I was there, all of my reviews as an employee were stellar. There was constant ascension.
15:50 Speaker 01 I was given more and more responsibility as I grew. There was never a time that my work ethic was ever questioned the way that it was questioned in the last month of my employ there. That's why I'm looking into a lawsuit for wrongful termination.
16:13 Pablo Torre? Well, I should say, as you contemplate your own legal recourse, that the emails that were problematic in the eyes of this regime are some of my favorite pieces of sports writing in a very long time. And I want to walk through some of them with you here today because they're examples of someone on record, before it was safe, before it was legally advisable even, saying what, as per their job description, they saw.
16:42 Speaker 01 It all came about because I questioned leadership on how some things were evolving that seemed to be sinister. And a lot of individuals in positions of power took issue with that, and they silenced me by terminating me.
17:00 Pablo Torre? It's astonishing for me to have done some amount of reporting to get to know the power dynamics at the union and then to wake up almost a year later and see that in some ways, despite various resignations, which we'll describe, some things are exactly the same, if not worse. And so the elections that are happening out in San Diego, this is the election of the next permanent executive director, a job that's only been held by a handful of people throughout the history of sports. It's a job that I just got to remind people opened up after weeks and weeks of our reporting around collusion cover-ups and conflict of interest allegations. And also, this particular all-staff email, Mr.
17:44 Pablo Torre? Jones, I wonder if you could read this as I sit here in front of you.
17:49 Speaker 01 The email states, "And what of J.C. Tretter? He is the progenitor of this whole tawdry episode of posers, 30 pieces of silver, player, leadership, man cave, and avarice. What of him? God bless the NFLPA so it may return to its hallowed annals."
18:11 Pablo Torre? And for the non-English majors among us, how would you translate that maybe in the way that you learned growing up?
18:17 Speaker 01 The way that I would translate it is that my mother used to tell us all of the time, "Don't be touching nobody else's stuff." And J.C. Tretter and Jalen Reese may have been-
18:34 Pablo Torre? The president of the NFLPA, the player president.
18:36 Speaker 01 The player president. And a host of others thought that they were going to take advantage of the players we serve. And as we used to say on the street, create an okie doke where others will fall for something that wasn't real. And so, what of him who created all of this, who bought in Lloyd Howe-
19:02 Pablo Torre? Because the whole way that this came about, of course, was done in secret.
19:06 Speaker 01 That's correct.
19:07 Pablo Torre? J.C. Tretter had engineered via a constitutional amendment, very quietly, that actually, the player voters on the Board of Representatives who choose the executive director, they don't need to know even who the finalists are until the day they show up to vote. There used to be a rule via the Constitution that you needed 30 days because, of course, vetting would be useful if you're a voter. Knowing who the candidates are would be useful if you're a voter. In 2023, just for people who don't remember, the two finalists were Lloyd Howell, the former CFO of Booz Allen, who had never had a job in the world of unions or sports. And the second finalist was David White.
19:52 Pablo Torre? That's correct. Who was the former head of SAG-AFTRA, which was the Actors Guild out in Hollywood, who has his own dossier that I want to get to. But these are two quote unquote pro-business executives. And the first thing I remember about J.C. Tretter and his reaction to the Board of Representatives electing Lloyd Howell was that he was thrilled. And this was even though the Board, of course, had done zero vetting prior, as per J.C. Tretter's constitutional amendment. And I dare say that my source on this is pretty good because it happens to be J.C. Tretter himself.
20:28 Speaker 08 I know some people say the Board needs to vet and qualify. That's not the Board's job. The Board's job is to interview and pick the best. Our job was to vet and qualify as an executive committee because we were never going to have 570 hours to give to the Board for them to have time to vet and qualify. That's why we put all the time in and all the work. And then in the end, the Board picked an awesome, an awesome new ED. And I think the vibes of that room, when the announcement came down, were unmatched. It really felt like you won a, you won a football game. It felt like you were back in the locker room, the celebration. It was just, it was really awesome.
21:05 Pablo Torre? And then I heard about the story of Richard Sherman, who was a former union official, of course, Hall of Fame cornerback. And after three rounds of doing interviews, what I was told was that Richard Sherman realized that Lloyd Howell was being pushed through this process, step by step, by J.C. Tretter. And according to a source familiar with Richard Sherman's thinking, quote, "Lloyd Howell was treated like a project boyfriend. We can fix him." End quote. Meaning that there was some...
21:41 Pablo Torre? palpable desire to make sure that Lloyd Howell got into the into the room where he would actually be a finalist. And when you look back now at the avalanche of things that apparently did not dissuade J.C. Tretter and the executive committee from making Lloyd Howell a finalist for this job and ultimately, quote, "an awesome, awesome new ED," as you just said in that in that clip. I mean, where do you start? Do you start with the fact that he had recently resigned as the CFO of Booz Allen, where a whistleblower inside that company identified Howell as a key character in what one federal prosecutor would call, quote, "one of the largest procurement fraud settlements in history."
22:23 Pablo Torre? $377 million for overbilling the US government, hundreds of millions of dollars? Do you mention the fact that Lloyd Howell had also settled a sexual discrimination and retaliation suit in 2015 that was filed by a subordinate at Booz Allen? I mean, when people in the building learned of this, Craig, just those two data points alone, what was the reaction? I mean, what level of shock was there that this man also had this baggage?
22:52 Speaker 01 Myself and many, many of the good people there were, well, how did this happen? If they had such a line-by-line formula that was going to bring to the union the very best in the choices, how did we end up with this guy? And when he got there, it became even more apparent. How did we end up with this guy? Because he and everybody consorting with him were distanced. They were aloof. You can tell that they were duplicitous and that they really didn't have the union's best interests at hand at all.
23:33 Speaker 01 It became difficult for a lot of us because we knew that this just is going to taint the organization. And it was infuriating because, Mr. Torre, I've seen players destitute. I've seen players psychologically compromised. And the players that I worried the most about were the ones who were embittered because they felt that the game had just left them behind. These characters who are aspiring to be back in a place of power in the union is because they see that we can take advantage of those who need us the most.
24:15 Pablo Torre? Look, part of the problem with Lloyd Howell was also just the the flagrant conflict of interest in his business background. You know, one thing that was revealed was that he was also working this part-time consulting job for the Carlyle Group. And the Carlyle Group is a private equity firm that happened to be on the NFL's approved list of firms that could buy stakes in NFL franchises. And this kind of conflict of interest, you're running the union. Your arch nemesis, your adversary that you're trying to counterbalance is the league. And the league has this list of approved buyers, basically, approved firms that they can be in business with. It made it insane to contemplate, how did Lloyd Howell also have this side job working
25:00 Pablo Torre? with management while he's representing labor?
25:02 Speaker 04 I am an operating executive at Carlyle Group. I do understand enough to be dangerous when it comes to private equity. It is intriguing, but it is intriguing that today's professional football player has more of an equity mindset. They want to put their money to work, right? And so in order to do that, here is a platform. Why can't they participate? And it could be for conflict of interest reasons, it could be all sorts of reasons, but in my experience, you can work through that, right? You can set up the right safeguards.
25:32 Pablo Torre? And then you get to this quote that he gave to The Athletic. This was July of 2024. And he says this about the NFL's desires to expand to an 18-game season, which is a massive pivot point in any CBA, collective bargaining, negotiation, as is the one that's coming up. And Lloyd says, quote, "It sounds attractive. Who doesn't want to see more football, myself included?" End quote. About the very thing that he's supposed to fight tooth and nail to prevent. And just that, the idea of like... It's not merely the tawdry. It's also the tactical. What's going on here? Who's he working for?
26:15 Speaker 01 There was an arrogance that he and his cabal carried. I keep mentioning Tim Christine. Tim Christine would do these wonderful backgrounds for the organization. And they never brought Lloyd Howell to him. They kept him away from the security department. And when Lloyd Howell was finally the executive director, he would literally stay away from the security department. He would come and park his car in the garage. He would walk back outside of the garage, go down the street to Starbucks, come back in the garage, get on the elevator and go straight up to his floor because he didn't want to come into the lobby and interface with security.
27:00 Speaker 01 They were all like that. Everybody that was involved with Lloyd Howell, J.C. Tretta, creating this miasma of mess. They would keep their distance away from everybody. And Mr. Christine used to say to me all of the time, I wonder why they stay away from me so much? And I said, it's because they've got secrets and they know that you know how to best find them. And they protected themselves with distance and indifference.
27:31 Pablo Torre? I need to clarify that when you're describing the literal path that Lloyd Howell used to take up to his office, you are the person who was professionally there to make sure you're aware of where everyone is. You're watching this on cameras.
27:46 Speaker 01 On camera in the main lobby, watching on camera.
27:49 Pablo Torre? And when you mention a background check and the notion of due diligence on who are these people that we're letting in, not just to our building, but into the inner sanctum such that they have control over what is, you know, at last check, a war chest touching a billion dollars.
28:07 Pablo Torre? This question is central to the story. What did you know and when did you know it? If you're J.C. Tretter, if you're Lloyd Howell, if you're the people who empowered them. When Lloyd resigns and then J.C. follows soon thereafter, it is worth pointing out that till the end, J.C. Tretter was defending himself. You know, he was trying to actually separate himself from Lloyd Howell. That you would tell anybody who would listen, it seems. He didn't really want Lloyd Howell. He wanted David White. And from the outside, something else that we discovered on this show was that there was, for the record here, another secret arbitration ruling. The first one was the collusion suit.
28:49 Pablo Torre? This one was from February of 2025, the month after the collusion suit ruling was passed down by that arbiter. And this suit was caused directly by J.C. Tretter, who had gone on a podcast to encourage players, running backs in particular, to fake injuries and gain leverage over their teams.
29:06 Speaker 09 Issues now, I don't think anybody would ever say they were fake injuries, but we've seen players who didn't want to be where they currently are have injuries that made them unable to practice and play. But you're not able to get fined and you're not able to be punished for not reporting. So there are issues like that. I don't think, I don't think I'm allowed to ever recommend that, but at least publicly. But I think each player needs to find a way to build up leverage to try to get a fair deal.
29:40 Pablo Torre? The NFL, tellingly, won this ruling, but even more tellingly, never announced that they won it. And again, this is the same timeline where the NFL and the NFLPA, under the leadership of Lloyd Howell and J.C. Tretter, agreed to bury. What was referred to as the Holy Grail of arbitration rulings in January of 25, the collusion suit. And yet, there is J.C. Treter on the Dan Patrick Show in July now of that year of 2025, after resigning to argue for his own innocence and even ignorance.
30:18 Speaker 10 The idea that I buried the collusion grievance, I've never seen the collusion grievance, I don't have access to the collusion grievance. I wasn't in any discussions about the collusion grievance, just not part of my job. I know we lost the collusion grievance in January, I knew that. I didn't know of any agreements or what was happening with that because it's not part of my department. Once it leaked a few weeks ago, I started learning more. I was on the board call and the EC call when it was explained what had happened over the last six months to the players. So I know more now, but at that point, I knew nothing. I wasn't involved in the discussions.
30:54 Pablo Torre? Is there any chance, in your view, that J.C. Treter and Lloyd Howell were not in lockstep about the collusion suit?
31:03 Speaker 01 Well, my instinct is that they were in lockstep. There would have been no Lloyd Howell if there was no J.C. Treter. There would be no J.C. Treter if there was no Lloyd Howell. And they all made a deal with the devil in themselves and perpetuated each other's desires. Whatever you want, I can make happen for you. Whatever you want, I can make happen for you.
31:27 Pablo Torre? What J.C. Treter wanted, according to four sources that I've spoken to, now dating back to last year, was ultimately to become the executive director himself of the NFLPA. That level of ambition, which I thought was beyond dispute, but according to J.C. Treter in his exit interview with CBS Sports, was definitely not what he wanted. He did say, quote, "I have no interest in being executive director. I have no interest in being considered. I let the executive committee know that. I'm also going to leave the NFLPA in the coming days because I don't have anything left to give the organization." I want to get my story out there and I don't want it to look like this was sour grapes or I didn't get the job and I wanted the job. All I want to do is tell my story and then go be with my family.
32:12 Pablo Torre? End quote. How palpable was the ambition, in your view, of J.C. Treter to be ultimately, again, one of those precious few people to have held that job?
32:23 Speaker 01 I think that it was apparent by the way that Lloyd Howell always perpetuated J.C. Treter. There was this constant dialogue that was going on that he's my guy. We work in unison with each other. We feed off of each other. Then when we go into negotiations, when we go into different elements of the business of football where people have to be on the same thought process, we got it.
32:53 Pablo Torre? Well, Lloyd Howell also, I was told, still maintaining a residence in Miami. That J.C. Treter, and you tell me if I'm wrong because you're the guy who saw the cameras, J.C. Treter was very present in the building and Lloyd Howell was not there nearly as much.
33:10 Speaker 01 That's correct.
33:12 Pablo Torre? And so the reason I ask is because if J.C. Treter is the guy who is the former NFL player with the resume of being, I was the player president, I was the former Cleveland Browns lineman, and Lloyd Howell's the guy from the world of business who has no connection to anything, J.C. Treter, if nothing else, is the guy that I was told Lloyd Howell leaned on to assess how do we strategize around matters of football.
33:38 Speaker 01 That is correct. J.C. Treter, for the rest of us, he was the window dresser because players are comfortable when they see other players in positions of leadership. And that's how Lloyd Howell would push J.C. out there while he would go wherever he would go in the course of a week or two. The Lloyd Howell cabal of- J.C. Tretter, Anamika Gupta, Matt Curtin, Lloyd Howell, they were always in lockstep with each other.
34:09 Pablo Torre? Anamika Gupta, the chief of staff to the executive director, who still remains at the union. Matt Curtin, the president of Players Inc., which is, again, the business wing of the union. He has that job and has, it seems, achieved ever more power at the union as well as we sit here today.
34:28 Speaker 01 They operated with this opaqueness about them, where you could see them, but you couldn't see them. And they were always together when they were in the building. They pretty much had the same habits. They would speak but not speak.
34:47 Pablo Torre? What does speak but not speak mean?
34:49 Speaker 01 We used to watch everybody come in on the bottom level on the cameras. And when people would come into the bottom level waiting for the elevators, you would see people interacting with each other. J.C. Tretter would have his head down. Lloyd would be looking somewhere else. Anamika had certain times of the day that she came in when nobody else was coming into the building. And they all kept this distance about them all. But whenever we would do patrols on each floor, we would patrol the eighth floor on the executive floor, we would see these individuals together with each other,
35:31 Speaker 01 but not on a lot of occasions with other people. They minded their business because their business, they didn't want anybody else to be in. They had decided amongst themselves that we've got everything so well in place the way we want it that we can just have that gangster swagger and just kind of go about our daily day doing what we want to do.
36:02 Pablo Torre? And this is where I should just observe that Matt Kurten, the aforementioned president of NFL Players, Inc., has become an increasingly significant character in the backstage mess of the NFLPA. Because in J.C. Treder's embittered CBS Evening Interview last summer, it's worth noting, Treder had named Kurten to his shortlist of, quote, "tremendously good people, whom players could still, quote, 'put their faith in.'" But Matt Kurten arrived at the union in March of 2024 because he was handpicked by Lloyd Howell on account of a relationship they'd built over decades working in finance. And upon arrival, in fact, Howell had given Kurten the seat right next to him on the board of One Team Partners,
36:46 Pablo Torre? the for-profit licensing company cofounded by the NFLPA, which has since put the union under FBI investigation. That mess leading to the recent termination of another employee who dared to allege the corruption of union leadership, longtime Associate General Counsel Heather McPhee. We'll get to that in a bit. But less than two weeks ago, in addition to all that stuff, a letter was sent to NFLPA lawyers by anonymous NFLPA staffers, which said in part, quote, "J.C. Treder is widely anticipated to be selected as the next executive director of the NFLPA." And that also, quote,
37:27 Pablo Torre? "multiple written and verbal complaints have been filed with NFLPA Human Resources against Matt Kurten." End quote. The letter goes on to express these anonymous employees' fear of possible retaliation and calls for an independent, external investigation so those complaints can be resolved. Now, for the record, a union spokesperson told PTFO about this letter, quote, "We have received an anonymous email that claims to represent current and former staffers, includes several unspecified allegations. We are evaluating them and will take appropriate steps as warranted. We have no further comment at this time." End quote. Which brings us back to Craig Jones.
38:16 Speaker 01 There was always this notion about them that they had people in place that was going to run interference for them. You don't have to worry about it. And if somebody like Mr. Jones or Heather McPhee or anybody else raises a ruckus, we will silence them in the way that we know how. And I just wouldn't capitulate to impunity. And there were so many wonderful employees also who said, no, we're not going to wrap ourselves up in the stench of all of this mess that they were creating. And our way to mitigate the madness
39:01 Speaker 01 is staying true to the game, staying true to the players, keep producing the kind of good work that we've been doing. And through all of that sacrifice that we've always made, that's going to make more apparent that these individuals that are in seats of power need not be there.
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40:07 Pablo Torre? You mentioned Heather McPhee. Heather McPhee is the now former longtime attorney for the NFLPA who repeatedly urged the union to investigate alleged self-dealing by NFLPA executives, including Lloyd Howell, as part of One Team Partners, which is the NFL's associated NIL business, a very strong business, which also remains, for those reasons that Heather was alleging. Under federal investigation. And Heather McPhee has since sued the NFLPA in federal court alleging, quote, "an unlawful and shameful conspiracy to intimidate and obstruct her as a DOJ witness, a federal witness, from cooperating with that federal investigation into union business." And so what's happening, by the way, as the existing,
40:51 Pablo Torre? the pre-existing staff is now meeting the new regime, the new bosses, there are buyouts being offered. For those who dare to stick around, union employees with more than seven years of service are offered buyouts to leave. And that's about half of the 120-person staff, I was told.
41:12 Speaker 01 That's correct.
41:13 Pablo Torre? There's a house cleaning that's being attempted simultaneous to a new approach to being, quote unquote, "a pro-business union." And how conspicuous was that attempt? As you were talking to your colleagues and seeing the building react to such offers?
41:29 Speaker 01 Well, it was obvious because at the Super Bowl, I was in New Orleans where Lloyd was executive director.
41:38 Pablo Torre? Yeah.
41:39 Speaker 01 And he was talking about how there needed to be some upgrades in staff. Because with this brave new world of data analytics and all of these new concepts that they were bringing into the game of football, there needed to be staffing changes with people who had the expertise to bring in these new analytical models. We need to freshen the place up, get new ways of thinking in here, different approaches to better serve the players. Here are these buyouts that we want people to consider. Let us know what you think. And there were a lot of people who were appalled, as rightfully as they should have been.
42:25 Speaker 01 Who just simply said, you know what, I'm not putting up with this madness. It's clear that there's something sinister about all this. I'm moving on. There were some people who wanted to stay because they loved the organization. I sent Lloyd Howe and all staff telling him that I wasn't going to accept it, that the place was benevolent to me and that all of this seems shady. And I said at the end of that email, tell J.C. Tretta to spend his 30 pieces of silver wisely. Well, the powers that be never said anything. They never said anything at all.
43:10 Speaker 01 The buyouts and things came, people left, I collected everybody's keys. It was sad. I cried for some people because they were dear to me. They had a plan that they had executed and they wanted to be done in the best possible way so they can succeed at their power grab in their adverse.
43:33 Pablo Torre? I'm thinking of you being the guy who collects the keys.
43:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:36 Pablo Torre? Which is a hell of a part of the job is that you're also saying goodbye to the people who didn't want to, for obvious reasons in retrospect, didn't want to bother trying to save a regime or work with a regime, however they saw it, that was doing this to how you guys had been operating. But the question of strategy, what is the strategy here? How is the union working? It does remind me that there were buyouts being offered and taken. And then there was a new title that was created and that was Chief Strategy Officer.
44:14 Speaker 01 Checkmate, sir.
44:18 Speaker 01 You couldn't have put that any clearer. They had all of these buyouts. They had all of this, well, we don't need this and we don't need that. And we need to upgrade. And then they create a whole new title for someone who... What was he doing was the question that everybody asked themselves.
44:39 Pablo Torre? J.C. Tretter, the first ever chief strategy officer of the NFLPA in its history, appointed by Lloyd Howell, the man who his process, J.C. Tretter's process, had installed via this secretive, suspicious regime.
45:01 Pablo Torre? But once Lloyd Howell and J.C. Tretter both resigned last summer in the wake of all that reporting about this regime and their secretive and suspicious electoral process, the NFLPA needed to appoint an interim executive director. And the candidate they turned to, of course, was the other finalist J.C. Tretter apparently wanted in that process from 2023, David White, who was not employed at the time and had a previous scandal of his own while in charge of SAG-AFTRA, a union which White ran as a pro-business, management-friendly leader, if any of that sounds familiar. And in 2014, White had threatened to sue Amy Berg,
45:45 Pablo Torre? the Academy Award-nominated director of a documentary called "An Open Secret." And White threatened to sue her if she did not whitewash, remove entirely, all references to SAG-AFTRA's role in a massive Hollywood pedophilia scandal, which, you know, sounds pretty bad on several immediate levels. But the NFLPA's vetting of this alleged cover-up, according to a union spokesperson who spoke to The Washington Post last summer, was, again, unambiguous. The NFLPA has reviewed this issue closely and feels confident that it has been fully briefed on the facts and context, the spokesperson told The Post.
46:30 Pablo Torre? And so I asked both Berg, the documentary's director, as well as the co-founder of a nonprofit dedicated to child actors, Anne Henry, who is a crucial source in "An Open Secret," an obvious question. Did anyone ever contact you from the NFLPA or a search firm working for the NFLPA about David White?
46:52 Speaker 12 No, they never did.
46:54 Pablo Torre? Has anyone from the NFLPA, anybody from a search firm hired by the NFLPA, anybody from the world of sports, have they reached out to you?
47:02 Speaker 12 No one, no one has contacted me about this at all. Nothing.
47:07 Pablo Torre? Which does feel like something. Something, in fact, that raises questions about the role of the NFLPA's player president, the head of this executive committee that's been running the union, Jalen Reeves-Maven, over this whole last year of mess. And in a statement to Pablo Torre Finesse, Jalen Reeves-Maven wrote, in part, the following, quote, "The suggestion that this election is simply a continuation of the prior leadership is wrong. We brought in an independent executive search firm, followed best practice guidance from outside counsel, involved our general counsel at every step, and conducted one of the most rigorous searches in the union's history.
47:51 Pablo Torre? Every candidate was fully vetted, with background checks completed, and any prior issues reviewed. This is the players' union, and under our constitution, the executive director is elected by player leadership. Staff members, former staff, and outside voices do not decide that outcome. The players do." End quote.
48:13 Pablo Torre? And so here, this week, after one of the most rigorous searches in the union's history, are the three known finalists for the globally significant job of NFLPA executive director. There's a man named Tim Pernetti, commissioner of the American Conference and former Rutgers Athletic Director, who's been described to me as the clear underdog. There's the clear favorite, J.C. Tretter, who also happens to be, apparently, the one and only player of all of those who applied, who was deemed worthy of finalist status, despite how much Jalen Reeves-Maven was just talking about how this is a players' union. And this even though J.C. Tretter is the guy who brought Lloyd Howell to the union, such
48:58 Pablo Torre? that they both had to resign last summer, giving way to David White. And the third finalist, you may now be unsurprised to learn, is of course, David White.
49:10 Pablo Torre? Who warrants a bit more description.
49:15 Speaker 01 Eunuch-esque. That's how I describe him. He is another toy in the game of J.C. Treter and the powers that be, who want to continue to undermine the organization. I asked David White in August of 25 at the all-staff meeting when he was being introduced to us,
49:43 Speaker 01 "How do you feel about being the runner-up in the beauty contest and you were the better-looking one? How did that happen?" And I asked Jalen Reeves-Mabon, "How did this happen?" His response to the staff was, "We're not perfect. We weren't perfect by selecting Lloyd Howe over David White." So I went, "Well, okay, perfection's for heaven. It's not for here. But is it something you would do better?" And I asked Mr. White, I said, "What do you think about it?" And he said, "The process is sound. They made their selections based on the procedures and policies that they wanted to follow them on.
50:25 Speaker 01 I'm just fortunate to be here now as your interim." And that was, that was August of 2025. And an esteemed player sent me an email and said, "Thank you so much for asking that question because there's a lot of us who wanted to know that as well." So that's how I started. The HR department said I was being too hard on Mr. Mabon and my queries and questions were antagonistic and to stand down from doing all of that.
51:00 Pablo Torre? I love the very basic fact that you've been on the record about this for a very long time. That if anybody wants to say this is sour grapes because the guy got fired, I think it's, it could not be more clear that at every possible turn to the frustration of those in charge, you are asking the questions that lots of people, again, were just afraid to ask.
51:22 Speaker 01 Exactly. And he was okay with.
51:28 Speaker 01 We're not perfect. And I was hoping from Mr. White that he would kind of defend himself in that process. But he didn't. He just said everything was sound. It was the way that it was supposed to be. The best man won. I'm just happy to be here now as the interim.
51:46 Pablo Torre? And so eunuch was the vocabulary word that came to Craig Jones's mind.
51:51 Speaker 01 Yes, because he has no, no stones of leadership. He's not inspiring. He didn't come in and try to take the reins. He tried to maintain the status quo. And let's, let's keep things quiet. Come to me. We don't need to have a whole lot of discussions about a lot of things. The process is going to be what it's going to be. I'm only going to be the interim, but support the process that's going to eventually find a new executive director. Well, in November, Jalen and Tom DePasso sent an all staff.
52:32 Pablo Torre? Tom DePasso, the general counsel of the union.
52:34 Speaker 01 Said that here's what's happening. We're starting the selection process again. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. Don't worry yourself with the process. The confidentiality keeps candidates sequestered from the public knowing because some of them have other jobs and they may not want everybody to know their other jobs. And I sent Jalen Reeves-Mabon an email saying, okay, I'm to understand that what failed a few years ago in the selection with Lloyd Howe, you're going to use the same process to choose someone new? How do you expect for that to go over?
53:16 Speaker 01 And he just emailed me back and said, thanks for your input, Craig. And then a couple of days later, the HR department sends me an email and said that my email to Mr. Mabon was again antagonistic.
53:33 Pablo Torre? You're a real villain.
53:34 Speaker 01 Yes.
53:34 Pablo Torre? Craig, clearly, all these emails. How dare you?
53:37 Speaker 01 Yes.
53:38 Pablo Torre? You know, when you mentioned Jalen Reeves-Mabon, we also had previously reported this, that when Jalen Reeves-Mabon was elected as the president of the NFLPA.
53:48 Pablo Torre? It also came under, let's call them interesting electoral circumstances. Because this was in 2024, and Jalen Reeves-Maven was one of the finalists. The other, in his election for player president, was a player by the name of Calvin Beecham. Calvin Beecham, among other things, kept on flagging one team, the thing that Heather McPhee was also flagging, as a potential problem. He's on the record saying that, I am told. And I'm also told that in those small group meetings where Jalen Reeves-Maven would go campaign in front of the Board of Representatives, which had been split into different groups, that Jalen Reeves-Maven would get a chance to campaign and Calvin Beecham would get a chance to campaign.
54:33 Pablo Torre? And then, according to one union source, who was in the room, J.C. Treter entered and campaigned on behalf of Jalen Reeves-Maven, negatively campaigning, to put it generously, against Calvin Beecham. And so, for those who don't know, the executive committee of the NFLPA, the leader, of course, is the player president. And so, when you ask the question, when you yell the question into a void, how is this happening? The president of the union is, in Jalen Reeves-Maven, a player who has been very notably aligned with the man who had to resign in disgrace and now is back. Because that guy, J.C.
55:14 Pablo Torre? Treter, had installed previously Jalen Reeves-Maven. That smells pretty bad.
55:21 Speaker 01 And everybody of decency and, again, that wonderful love they have for the players we serve, they all know that, that it smells bad. And the reason that they've managed to continue to push it through is because of the positions and power that they're in, the people that they have in the organization working inside for them. And I do have to say that, and I hope it changes, there is a degree, a small degree, of player apathy, and the union, the business.
55:57 Pablo Torre? Well, that's what I was gonna ask about, is the check on union leadership. As much as Craig Jones can send emails, as much as Heather McPhee can document her objections on a legal basis and then also be terminated.
56:14 Pablo Torre? The power still does remain in an electoral body of players. And I do wonder, do they see this as clearly as the people inside the NFLPA headquarters in Washington DC have seen it?
56:30 Speaker 01 It's been my experience with athletes that when
56:35 Speaker 01 their talents and their God-given gifts and all of the things that they have going for themselves whenever they enter whatever arena that they're in. When those talents and things are at the height of their beauty
56:51 Speaker 01 and they're being paid and they can look at their bank account and they've got nice clothes and they're providing for their family and loved ones. The last thing they're thinking about is tomorrow. Because we're always told that the best moment is the moment you're in. And I think sometimes that there are people who sit back in business and go, let's let that myopia that athletes have because they're just seeing themselves in the moment work for them, but let's let the aftermath of the moment work for us. So people come in who are scurrilous, who are scheming. A lot of good, decent players are flimflammed
57:37 Speaker 01 and they don't even know it till it's too late to know it. When they're sometimes going, eh, that's business. I ain't thinking about no business right now. I got other things I need to do. Is my car clean? You know, there are some people who are just sitting back 3 o'clock in the morning going, how can I get this player's stuff without him knowing it? So when I saw the finalists for this weekend, I went, they're keeping it going. They are maintaining the okie doke to continue to try to fulfill their greed and avarice.
58:13 Pablo Torre? It's something that I can't get over. It's just rare, you know, in the story of sports and the story of certainly like labor reporting, which is a limited field. You rarely hear from the security guard. You rarely hear from the head of security.
58:30 Speaker 01 My patron saint of security was Frank Wills, the gentleman who discovered the Watergate break-in. He was asked many years ago, how did you happen to come across something that turned out to be so, so big of a story in all of American politics? And his response was, I was just doing my job. I was on patrol and I saw some tape. I took it off, came back after lunch and saw the tape there again. I called the police and then they discovered this. So for me, that's all it's been, just me doing what I was duty bound to do, to protect
59:13 Speaker 01 and serve and to have presence and observation in all set of circumstances that if something didn't seem quite right, to speak to my director, Tim Christine, about it, or raise my hand in all staff meetings, or send out all staff emails saying, um, consider this. And that's pretty much what I did. I had to do it.
59:40 Pablo Torre? The thing that you've also been doing in your seventies is not merely surviving prostate cancer.
59:48 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
59:48 Pablo Torre? And it's not merely burying your nephew.
59:51 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
59:52 Pablo Torre? Is somebody that I can't help but think about because we were trying to figure out, when could you come visit New York? And you had to arrange funeral services. And so my condolences.
1:00:03 Speaker 01 Thank you, sir.
1:00:05 Pablo Torre? But the other thing you're doing, of course, is tending to your mom, the one who taught you.
1:00:10 Speaker 01 That's correct.
1:00:11 Pablo Torre? To stay off of other people's stuff.
1:00:15 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:00:16 Pablo Torre? And so as you think of your mom and again, your mom battling dementia.
1:00:22 Speaker 01 Dementia, yes.
1:00:23 Pablo Torre? And trying to hold on to key memories. You have for all time, a record of how you saw this story. And so I was wondering if you could just read the end of your goodbye email that you sent to the all staff NFLPA listserv, because I can't think of a better way to end this.
1:00:47 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
1:00:51 Speaker 01 To my former coworkers who I hold so dear. You know who you are. I genuflect in your honor on how you continue unselfishly to serve players with unwavering verve and professional aplomb as executive ineptitude swirl still around you. Don't despair. Muhammad Ali once told me, the deeper the pressure, the greater the poise. You will always be cherished. I love you.
1:01:27 Speaker 01 I'm sorry, man.
1:01:31 Speaker 01 I'm sorry. They were so wonderful. And to see them disparaged and treated and kicked aside and cheated on. And that group of employees that I worked with, they were just wonderful. And I will always love them and always think about them and tell them to keep up the good work. Don't, don't. If you gotta take a stand in eight, do so. But after you cleared your head, get back in the game and take care of the players that we serve. Watch over them the way you so wonderfully have done and continue to believe that your work is not in vain.
1:02:20 Pablo Torre? Mr. Craig Jones, thank you for speaking truth to power.
1:02:27 Speaker 01 Mr. Pablo Torre, this has been an honor of my lifetime because it lets me know that I'm not alone. Thank you, sir.
1:02:45 Pablo Torre? This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production.
1:02:51 Pablo Torre? And I'll talk to you next time.
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