UNESCO World Heritage: Preserving the Best of Humanity

Humanity’s created a lot of neat things over the eons and starting in the 1940s, the UN created an agency focused on preserving those things for the whole world and future people. But that mission is in danger of becoming only about branding and money. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:46Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:56Josh Clark?

  Hey and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and this is Stuff You Should Know. And this is a fairly rare addition where we do an episode that we decided to do within the last few episodes. We don't usually turn around that fast. Usually it's like seven to eight years.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is a quick one. And Julia turned this around for us pretty

• 2:20Speaker 02

  static.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  I just made that up.

• 2:23Josh Clark?

  Sure, but I get it.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  I think everyone knows what we mean. But we're talking about UNESCO World Heritage Sites. UNESCO, standing for, which I never knew, I'm glad I know this now, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, whom in 1972 drafted this treaty to preserve world heritage as a whole, you know, whether it's, as we'll see, like a place or a thing. And they even expanded later into like, you know, cultural processes and customs and traditions.

• 2:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and that's where this idea came from. We were doing our episode on contortionism, and we found that Mongolia was turned down for getting

• 3:07Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 3:07Josh Clark?

  world heritage protection for their contortionist history.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Didn't make the cut.

• 3:11Josh Clark?

  And they were like, what the H? So we started looking into this. And it is pretty interesting. One of the things that apparently is a fairly common misunderstanding is that if you have like a heritage site, like something is identified and labeled a world heritage site, that that is no longer sovereign territory in your country.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:34Josh Clark?

  Could not be wronger. That still belongs to you. But what's happened is that the world, essentially, everybody who's a member of UNESCO, has agreed to say like, we want to preserve this in your country. It's yours. But it really, we're all agreeing that this belongs to humanity? Because it's so important to human culture, so unique, that we need to preserve it. And it takes more than just one country to preserve things like this. So we're all going to get together and take shared responsibility for this important part of human culture.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also a little bit of protection. Like, you know, you've got something valuable on your shelf there. We're all watching you. As you as you juggle your way through the room.

• 4:17Josh Clark?

  You want to leave it in mint condition.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  That's right. There's one quote here that I think kind of nails it is it's it's things that have outstanding universal value. So it's the universality of it all as far as, you know, needing to cherish and care for these things. And I think it's kind of a kind of a cool deal. I mean, some people might criticize it as a big sort of political thing to get tourist dollars headed your way. But I'm not so cynical. I think it's actually pretty great.

• 4:47Josh Clark?

  Oh, I do too. I think it's good, too. I think it's both, though. I think the ideal of it is awesome. I think that in practice lately, it's it's

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, agreed.

• 4:55Josh Clark?

  in trouble. The thing is, the idea that it was outstanding universal value, I get that again, as an ideal, but in practice, that is not always the case. And I draw your attention to the Oostdunkerke, which is horseback shrimp fishing in Belgium. And if that sounds obscure to you, you're right, because only 12 families practice this still. That is a protected and tangible heritage. That is not of universal value, although it is super interesting, and I'm glad it's protected, because why not? But I just thought that that was there's a lot of different things that contradict the idea that it's of universal value.

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. This all got started post-World War II, after the world got together and decided to wreck everything again for the second time in about 30 years. And everyone kind of looked up and were like, geez, you know, we lost a lot of museums and churches and monuments, and entire cities sometimes, or huge portions of cities are just gone. And maybe we need, as a as a world nation, to get together and sort of start caring for these things a little bit more. So the UN kind of led the brigade on this, and UNESCO was formed in 1945.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  I think I said that 1972 was when the World Heritage Treaty or whatever came about. So UNESCO was around, you know, quite a while before this came around. So, starting in 1945 is when UNESCO was formed and they basically started a campaign to, to start protecting these places from a few things. It's not always just like war, that is definitely one of them. But also, um, human development and natural disaster.

• 6:43Josh Clark?

  Right, for sure. The first thing, I think they were really kind of focused on learning from like archaeology was a big thing they were into for a while, but it really started to take the shape that we understand it today in 1959, when Egypt went to UNESCO and said, hey, man, like, we want to build this dam. It's really important that we have a reservoir of water, but when we build the dam, there's a lot of like really old, like Egyptian, pharaonic, Arab dynastic monuments that are going to be underwater. So can you help us figure this out? And UNESCO said, this is it. We've been waiting for this for 14 years.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. They said, we need to raise some money. So they got about $80 million together. And said, all right, let's move these two temples specifically to higher ground. So they moved, they disassembled these temples, moved them about 650 feet, uh, which it was higher and out of harm's way. And that sort of, like you said, that just sort of started this idea of like, wait a minute, we can get together and make great things happen and protect great places. And that kind of continued through the 60s until 1972 on November 16th, uh, at their 17th general conference, when they adopted the Convention Concerning the Protection of

• 8:03Speaker 02

  World Cultural and Natural Heritage, which culminated, the center of all that is basically this World Heritage List.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And there was one other aspect of that 1959 Aswan Dam Initiative, I guess.

• 8:18Josh Clark?

  Dozens of countries like donated to make this happen. Like this was $80 million in 1959. This is a significant amount of money. Egypt was really the only country that was going to benefit from this. But countries around the world said, no, we want to help take responsibility for this because we think that these are that important. They transcend just Egyptian importance.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And that leads to the second part of that, what happened in 1972. There was the Heritage List and the Heritage Fund. And that fund, you know, without money, none of this really matters that much. You know, it takes a lot of dough sometimes to do things like this.

• 8:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, for sure. Because like you said, a lot of it's threatened. And one of the big things is preservation, protection and restoration. So that World Heritage Convention from 72, it created the World Heritage List. And now here, finally, we have reached like the actual modern incarnation of what UNESCO is largely involved in, or at least known for.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  That's right. As far as the nuts and bolts of it all goes, there is the World Heritage Committee, which is 21 member countries at this point that are elected for six-year terms. And they're the ones that are sort of in charge of overseeing all this. The United States has been a member country before and not been a member country, depending on which politician is in the White House. You can probably figure that one out.

• 9:40Josh Clark?

  Well, no, not surprising. There's some surprising dates in there, if you ask me.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but we're not in there now. I think, when did we drop off? 20?

• 9:50Josh Clark?

  11.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, but we were back on, then back off again in like 21, right?

• 9:55Josh Clark?

  2018.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  It's 2018, okay. I can't get my years straight.

• 10:01Josh Clark?

  That's because of COVID.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  So, you know, if you are, they call it hosting, but if you have a World Heritage Site in your country, you have to, you can't just say, give us all the money and don't worry about it after that. You have to provide annual reports. You have to, you know, deliver reports on like how the property is, the state of the property, any concerns like moving forward, basically kind of how things are going. And if you're a member country, you get the whopping sum of $4 million a year from the World Heritage Fund.

• 10:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  And that is, I mean, some of that is preservation, but I get the feeling a lot of that is like, just sort of functioning and identifying places and promoting your own World Heritage Sites.

• 10:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, probably paying for docents is a chunk of that, too.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably so.

• 10:51Josh Clark?

  But also, if something happens, acute disaster from human or natural causes, you'll get some emergency assistance. And then this is another big one that I think probably really comes in handy. There are experts who work at UNESCO who can train your staff, right? You don't have to figure, you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time and be like, this is an archaeological site. Let's figure out how to train you, the staff, to preserve it and explain it and all that stuff. You can send them off to, I guess, New York and have them trained up to do those things.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And tourism, it's a big deal. If you're, if you get one of your, if you are a country where you have a site that you get put on this list, it's a big deal because people, I think, that don't know a ton about this kind of look at it as like a seven wonders of the world list in some ways. And like, oh, here's a place like we got to visit before we die.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's hundreds of wonders of the world as far as the World Heritage List is concerned.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:50Josh Clark?

  So originally, Chuck, there were just like physical places and features that were on the World Heritage List called sites. And they were divided essentially into two categories, cultural or natural. And you can kind of generally guess what the criteria was for each.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, like if it's a natural heritage site, it means there's just universal value, maybe scientifically, or maybe even just aesthetically.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  You know, we're talking about the Great Barrier Reef of Australia, or Serengeti National Park in Tanzania, stuff like that. And it's, you know, it's about protecting these natural wonders of the world, generally.

• 12:35Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I mean, we just take for granted that the Serengeti National Park is like amazing. But the reason why specifically it was chosen is because it's one of the best examples of large predator-prey interactions. Like, you just do not see lions chasing down antelope in Kansas. You don't see it, unless the zoo's going crazy. And that's one reason why it's protected. It's basically the main reason why it's protected. But then there's also an intersecting thing, too, that it's also gorgeous. So this fulfills a couple of things. It's biologically important to science, but it's also aesthetically amazing, too.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And this goes, you know, every single one of these things. We're not just going to go through and list a ton of different places. But if you're talking about the Yellowstone National Park, or the Galapagos Islands, or like I mentioned, the Great Barrier Reef, these all seem like pretty obvious inclusions.

• 13:27Josh Clark?

  For sure, and they were probably included pretty early on in the list's existence.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Oh, geez.

• 13:33Josh Clark?

  So that's the natural site. There's also the cultural site. And these are essentially, you know, human-made environments, or structures, or places of human occupation, where humans did something impressive, important, or it was just part of a larger culture. For example, there's a crossroads, and I think, um, oh, I don't remember where it was, but it was just a crossroads back on the, in the, like, the third century CE. And it was just really important at the time. It doesn't seem all that important now, but it was, and you want to preserve it, because future generations can learn from it and experience it and appreciate it.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And it can also be a building or a sculpture like the Statue of Liberty is on there under cultural heritage, under that. But so is like Venice, Italy. So it can be a whole city that's sort of ancient, modern, well, maybe not ancient, but a modern wonder, you know?

• 14:33Josh Clark?

  Right. And then it can be ancient, too. And then also like how the aesthetics and scientific importance intersect in the Serengeti National Park, that can happen in cultural sites, too. Like, it can be where archaeology intersects with, you know, humans like making, shaping the natural environment, like the Cahokia Mounts are on the list.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:59Josh Clark?

  To where like all these different boxes can be checked. And those are, they call the money sites, where there's just a bunch of different criteria going on.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And when I said not ancient, I meant Venice specifically.

• 15:14Josh Clark?

  I see, I see. Have you been to Venice?

• 15:16Speaker 02

  I've never been there. It's on, a big time on the list, but I also just realized I don't know when all that was engineered.

• 15:24Josh Clark?

  I wanted to say like the 16th century, but it could be later.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Is that ancient?

• 15:29Josh Clark?

  It's ancient-ish. No, not really.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  I don't even know what ancient means now that I think about it.

• 15:33Josh Clark?

  But it's, you're gonna love it. You will love Venice. And when you do go there, go to Harry's Bar. It's where the Bellini was invented.

• 15:42Speaker 02

  Okay, love a Bellini.

• 15:43Josh Clark?

  They saved Hemingway's seat, like at the bar. It's preserved. But their martinis are really, really good. They're outrageously expensive just because they know that you'll pay it because you're a tourist. But it's still worth getting.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Well, maybe I can grow the beard back out and put some weight back on and convince everyone I'm the ghost of Hemingway and take that seat finally.

• 16:05Josh Clark?

  Well, bring a multi extra-toed cat with you. Or are they cross-eyed? What is it about those cats? Two tails?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  I don't know. Are they, are they polydactyl?

• 16:14Josh Clark?

  I think so. There's some, there's some unique feature that Hemingway cats on Key West all share.

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 16:23Josh Clark?

  I want to say it's an extra toe. I'm not sure.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  Well, moving on, we'll figure that out.

• 16:30Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  There are total, a total of 1,248 World Heritage Sites right now. The vast amount of those are cultural, I think 78%, 19% are natural, and 3% are mixed. And Europe and North America have almost half of them, they have 46% compared to Latin and the Caribbean, Latin America and Caribbean at 12%, Asia and the Pacific 25%, the Arab states 8%, and Africa 9%, although we should say Africa holds 20% of all the natural sites, which is pretty impressive and not surprising.

• 17:03Josh Clark?

  That is cool. I say we take a break, but first I also wanted to point out that not all of these are, you know, just like up with humanity. Like, they also preserve some pretty dark stuff, too. One good example is the Navy School of Mechanics in Argentina, which has turned into a site of memory, a museum, where they basically preserve the fact that this was a place where people were abducted, tortured, and murdered by dictatorships in Latin America in the 1970s and 80s. And this is a World Heritage Site because it's important to remember, people will do this. Like, people will vote people like this into office and keep them there, and those people can turn on their own people,

• 17:46Josh Clark?

  and you can be abducted and disappeared and murdered by the state. That happens. That, to me, is like one of the big driving...

• 17:56Josh Clark?

  I guess it drives home the point of the World Heritage List more than some of these others.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:02Josh Clark?

  To remember.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Not just pretty things.

• 18:03Josh Clark?

  Right. But you don't have to just remember the dark stuff. You can remember all of the stuff, but you can't ignore the dark stuff, I guess, is what I mean.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Well said, just like Lord Vader himself.

• 18:15Josh Clark?

  What'd he say? Like, "Come on over, baby, the dark side's feeling great."

• 18:19Speaker 02

  I think so. That was the line. Should we take that break?

• 18:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think we should.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  All right, we'll be right back, everybody.

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• 21:51Speaker 02

  All right, so we mentioned early, we're back by the way, that UNESCO would eventually adopt stuff like oral traditions and performing arts and social rituals and practices and things like that. That happened in 2003 specifically. And, you know, this was a very valuable ad, I think, like a skill set or a knowledge or just some irreplaceable custom or traditional craft or skill or something that, you know, could be in danger of being lost, you know, if not for stuff like this.

• 22:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and again, it can be 12 families shrimp fishing on horseback in Belgium.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  I want to see that.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  What does that look like?

• 22:32Josh Clark?

  It looks like somebody with a horse and a shrimp net on a beach. I saw a picture of it.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  I mean, I kind of figured that, but, you know. I bet the shrimp are good.

• 22:43Josh Clark?

  But I think this is, it's worth preserving too, because this is important to like these people. It's not saying like, oh, this is what America thinks is cool. Or this is what Zimbabwe thinks is cool. Like this is, it is important to this culture. There's a culture on planet Earth and this is important to them. And we should preserve it just for that very reason. Plus also really, what is supporting horseback shrimp fishing among 12 families in Belgium really costing the world to support?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Agreed. One part about being included on this part of the list is that, and I think this is kind of cool, is it can be inherited from the past, but it also is applied to a contemporary setting. And so that means, you know, it can't be the lost art of whatever. If it's like truly, really no one is even doing this at all anymore. Like you can be D-listed and we're going to talk about that in a minute. Not D-listed as in D-dash, but D-E-dash.

• 23:40Josh Clark?

  Oh, you know that site?

• 23:43Speaker 02

  Well, no, wasn't that a TV show?

• 23:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, I don't know. But there's a, there's a really mean like burn blog or there used to be called D-listed. That was hilarious, but also really cruel.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  No, I was never on that. But if you are included, that means you, this, this practice or this ritual or custom is passed through generations and communities. And very community-based overall, like it's recognized.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  It's recognized within that community and, and outside that community as something of value. Kind of like the shrimp people, shrimp people.

• 24:17Josh Clark?

  Just because it's interesting, you know?

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:20Josh Clark?

  Let's talk about, we dug up some other ones. You want to just kind of throw a few of these out? I found basically all these interesting, but we should probably just pick some.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll, I'll go with the bagpipes. Bulgarian bagpipe making and bagpipe playing. Apparently it's a very big thing in Bulgaria, passed down through the families for generations. And it used to be like a father to son thing. Now they will teach all genders, which is kind of great. And, you know, it's in social clubs, they teach it in schools and they're like, we need to protect this. And it is on that list.

• 24:51Josh Clark?

  It's also, there's some very famous ones too, that it's not just as obscure as horseback shrimp fishing. Artisanal baguette making in France is protected. Turkish coffee is protected, sauna culture in Finland is protected.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, baby.

• 25:05Josh Clark?

  Gingerbread crafting in Croatia. And then it does get a little more niche, loincloth weaving and cot de voir. Human tower creation, they're called castles in Spain, where people just stack up on other people. And then there's also an annual grass mowing competition in Bosnia Herzegovina. And it is, it's using a scythe. They're not just like riding John Deere tractors or anything like that. And it's, it's exactly what it sounds like. It's a grass mowing competition. That's protected. Also, so is yodeling in Switzerland.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, great list.

• 25:43Josh Clark?

  Thank you. So Chuck, I don't know if you said there's a danger list. Did you mention that? I don't think we have yet.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  No, I talked about being de-listed, but before you're de-listed, you can be in danger.

• 25:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and you can be in danger from, we did kind of talk about, you can be in danger from armed conflict war. From climate change, from all, like just a complete change of the surrounding area can, can get you de-listed. And danger is where, this is the step before de-listing. And essentially UNESCO steps in and says, hey, we need to do something about this because the site is deteriorating. Or we need to figure out how to lift the Statue of Liberty 100 feet so that sea level rise doesn't, you know, wash it away. And there's two kinds. There's ascertained danger, which is like, this is going to happen. And then there's potential danger, like say, stuff coming from climate change.

• 26:39Josh Clark?

  Or if it's, you know, a civil, civil conflict is starting to heat up and it looks like a civil war is going to break out. And there's a heritage site right in the crossfire.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And, you know, one good example of something they might do is they are these national parks and I guess they're all national parks in the Democratic Republic of Congo that was, they were all made the danger list between 94 and 97. So they, you know, kind of put up the, the warning flag and UNESCO came in with their fat bank account. There were some NGOs involved that wanted to get involved and donate some money and they had a four-year rehabilitation campaign for these parks. And then a second campaign, and this kind of goes to show how the international community comes together. These are all in

• 27:29Speaker 02

  the Democratic Republic of Congo, but in 2004, the second campaign got funded from Belgium and Japan. They're like, let's take care of these places.

• 27:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah. There's another site, the remains of Bamyan Valley in Afghanistan is what it's called. It went from not on any world heritage list immediately to the danger list. The Taliban, back in 2001, blew up these two, I think 10 and 15-story tall cliff carved, I guess, statues or reliefs of Buddha from the 6th century. They were beautiful and the Taliban blew them up by shooting them with shoulder-launched rocket launchers that were probably provided by the CIA back in the 80s when they were fighting the Russians. And this was an enormous

• 28:20Josh Clark?

  thing. Like, people were like, what are you doing? Like, what is the problem here? Is this part of this kind of ethnic cleansing campaign against the Hazara people who live in the area? And so they're like, I guess UNESCO was like, right, we can't let anything like that happen again. Let's get in here and try to preserve this valley. And it was put on the danger list and they started a campaign in 2009 to just basically go in there and figure out how to move forward and keep this valley from getting worse off than it was.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think landmines there is a big deal. So, part of their, you know, UNESCO getting involved there is identifying and getting rid of those landmines first and foremost.

• 28:58Josh Clark?

  Yep. Uh, let's see.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Everglades National Park, Florida's treasure, that's on there.

• 29:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Very sadly, on the danger list.

• 29:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, there's also like civil conflicts really target stuff or endanger sites like the Historic Centre of Odessa in Ukraine is on the list.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:18Josh Clark?

  Ancient Aleppo in Syria is on the list. It can, yeah, that's a big, it seems like armed conflict and climate change are the two biggest threats to World Heritage Sites.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. Uh, you know, we did talk about being delisted and thankfully that's only happened a few times because if you're deleted from the list, uh, that means like, that means you're probably done as a thing, uh, and that like, there's no point in protecting you anymore because it doesn't exist. Uh, and one good example of that is, uh, the Liverpool Maritime Mercantile City was delisted in 2021. This was the historic docklands of Liverpool, uh, very big, you know, port town, obviously, in England, and, uh, they built a stadium there. Everton Stadium was built and it was, it basically kind of wiped all that out. So they were like, well, there's no reason for this being on the list anymore.

• 30:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the Tower of London is not on the danger list, but it's on the pre danger list for the same reason. The development that's going on in the area threatens to basically take away its natural or historic, I mean, um, identity. Even just being built around, they're not talking about knocking down the Tower of London, but just building around it can change the, the, the built environment enough that UNESCO is like, it's done.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, sometimes it's very sad in this case in Oman, the Arabian, uh, oryx sanctuary was delisted in 2007. Uh, that had a population of Arabian oryx antelope and that, you know, that was decimated so much that population such that, uh, I believe it fell down to like 65 of them in 2007. And I guess that was, and this was because of poaching, obviously, and habitat destruction, which makes it super sad, but I guess that was low enough to where they were like, all right, you know, no more protection from us.

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  I know, and that's sad because it seems like that's when they should swoop in and be like, we're, we're going to occupy this area, Oman. We are, this is no longer sovereign Oman.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think there are other organizations that do and protect species like that. So hopefully, they weren't just sort of left out in the wind.

• 31:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that they were on the danger list first, and then they just didn't follow through. But that's, um, that we should say, it's not a, um, it's pretty dishonorable for a country to let one of its sites end up on the danger list. Even worse, to have it delisted. So countries tend to work hard to get off of the danger list. And that does actually happen. That happened in 2025 to three different spots. The rainforest of Atsinanana in Mariaskar, Abu Menah in Egypt, I think that was the

• 32:08Josh Clark?

  crossroads. And then in the old town of Gedamesh in Libya, that was the crossroads. It was the crossroads between Africa and the Mediterranean a couple thousand years ago. But those were all, for different various reasons, on the danger list. And those countries worked very hard and aggressively to address all of those issues and get them back off of the danger list. So it is possible to get off the danger list and certainly not be delisted. And usually, countries who take this stuff seriously will work hard to do that.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't want to be on the naughty list.

• 32:46Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Earlier, when you said, uh, crossroads, I thought, genuinely thought you were gonna say, uh, the Mississippi crossroads where Robert Johnson sold his soul to the devil.

• 32:57Josh Clark?

  Do they have that one crossroad identified?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 33:02Josh Clark?

  It sure seems like it should be a world heritage site.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know. I'm not sure if they actually had the actual crossroads, or if it's more of a, uh, not apocryphal, but, or maybe it is apocryphal.

• 33:15Josh Clark?

  Uh, it could be both.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, or ephemeral. Could be all three.

• 33:19Josh Clark?

  Right. Uh, the, have we taken our second break? I don't think we have, have we?

• 33:25Speaker 02

  No, let's take, it's perfect timing. Look at us, 30 minutes in.

• 33:28Josh Clark?

  Okay, we'll be right back.

• 33:43Josh Clark?

  Everyone has a story to tell. What's yours? The moment you met your partner, landed that promotion? For people living with a rare disease, life can feel divided into before the diagnosis and all the after moments that follow. On Voices of Vivgard, Vivgard is also known as its generic name, Efgartigimod alfa Fcab, you'll hear powerful stories from people facing challenges and embracing a life with a rare disease.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  Join host Andra Stratten as she guides listeners through honest conversations about life after diagnosis. You'll hear how each guest worked with her care team on their treatment plan, as well as their personal challenges, setbacks, progress, and moments of connection.

• 34:20Josh Clark?

  These stories reveal that life is bigger than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:36Josh Clark?

  World Mental Health Day takes place in October, and it's really meant to be more than just awareness. It's about actually taking the next step and getting support if you need it.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  But a lot of people still talk themselves out of therapy. They think it's too expensive. They're not sure if it'll actually work. They don't know how to find the right therapist, or they just get overwhelmed trying to navigate the whole system.

• 34:55Josh Clark?

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• 35:09Speaker 02

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• 35:14Josh Clark?

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• 35:27Speaker 02

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• 36:19Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, politics plays a huge part in UNESCO and the World Heritage List. You would probably not be surprised to think because this is a bunch of different nations coming together, and they don't always play super well together. Or when they do play super well together, it's often like gaming the system. And that seems to be what is going on today with UNESCO and the World Heritage Convention, that it's basically been creeping slowly toward a way for countries to make more money through their tourism industry, get some sites on the World Heritage List, you can go promote it worldwide and bring more people to your country where they're going to spend a bunch of drachmas.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. There is a professor of anthropology at Stanford named Lynn Meskel, who basically said it's entirely about political and economic gain at this point, just a tool in a much larger arsenal of nation-state politics. And the politics of it all can't be ignored these days. There's an interesting thing that happens in terms of like...

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Repatriation, you know, we've talked at some point here and there about like, you know, when there's plundering from wars and things like that. And all of a sudden that countries own things or at least have possession of them and place them in museums, they weren't there to begin with, like giving this stuff back. There's a big movement for that, but there's also this sort of idea on the other side of like, well, we will take care of that stuff because it is in London or New York City.

• 37:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  And we're not going to give it back to you. And that same sort of mentality has been sort of, the same thing is sort of applied to World Heritage Sites. I think a little bit where indigenous peoples are kind of moved out of the conversation because the attitude is like, well, you just don't know what's best for your stuff.

• 38:19Josh Clark?

  Right. It's kind of like if you, if you're a bunch of Westerners coming along as tourists to tour this World Heritage Site that's of immense cultural value to this local group. If current people from the local group show up, they kind of push their, out of their way by their face and they're like, out of the way, you're ruining the diorama. This took place a thousand years ago. We don't care what's going on with you today, even though you're directly related to this, I think is that mentality, right?

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good way to say it, I think, sadly.

• 38:50Josh Clark?

  There's also like a whole, I talked about gaming the system. One of the ways that you can game the system is essentially withdraw, like the United States has done twice now, in the eighties and in 2018. You can withdraw from UNESCO and this convention, but you can still nominate sites, including sites in your own country, right?

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:12Josh Clark?

  So you're getting the best of both worlds where you can get those tourism dollars for getting New World Heritage Sites. And you're also not paying dues or you're not spending any of your own money to support other sites. But if you need help with your sites because it's World Heritage Site, you can get other countries' money who are doing the right thing and paying their dues.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Not, not a cool thing to do, if you ask me. The other thing that they've seen, I think, um, kind of starting in like the 1990s, it seems like, is when countries are getting together and, um, voting together, like forming packs and voting blocks to either get listed or to, uh, to block maybe a site from getting on the danger list. Cause we said that's kind of like being on the naughty list.

• 40:01Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly. So like Latin American countries will frequently band together and vote, um, in one another's best interests. Or also, I think even countries that aren't members anymore, say the US, can basically be like, hey, vote for us for this thing and, you know, we'll make sure that we up our oil imports from your country by 10% or something like that. You know, so I think the more, the more juice you have, the more you can get stuff done, even if you're not a member anymore.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And, you know, like you said, this is big money. Like if you're included on this list, they will, you'll be a part of their advertising campaign. And then you can also create your own around that, you know, touting inclusion, you know?

• 40:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I can tell you that I want to go see the Minoan palatial centers in Greece. Uh, six Bronze Age sites that were part of the late Bronze Age collapse, they're about to be, or they were just on, in 2025 put on. So that's, the tourism's working already.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  So you might not have known about that had it not been included, probably?

• 41:02Josh Clark?

  Uh, yes, I did not know those sites existed.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm sure they have a robust website with lots of pretty pictures.

• 41:10Josh Clark?

  So, um, yeah, and that's basically like being there in person, right? But it's free.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Uh, speaking of the danger list, there are a few sites that, you know, you can be removed from the danger list. That's the, that's the goal, I guess, uh, before being delisted. And that happened last year. The rainforest in Madagascar, those, the ones that you were talking about? Yeah, they're not on the danger list. And then that town in Libya, was that where the crossroads was?

• 41:37Josh Clark?

  That's the crossroads.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  So they, I guess, what do you do? Just raise enough hay or prove that you're actually protecting it in such a way?

• 41:47Josh Clark?

  Well, I'll give you the example of the crossroads, the old town of Gammes, I believe, is what it is.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  Gattames.

• 41:54Josh Clark?

  Gattames, thank you. Their irrigation techniques were raising the water table and some of the very ancient buildings were in danger of crumbling from the water exposure. So Libya went in and basically came up with different irrigation techniques that they taught to the locals, lowered the water table, and now the site is no longer in jeopardy and it's off of the danger list.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  All right.

• 42:19Josh Clark?

  It's essentially just a question of the host country having the will to spend a few bucks to remedy the situation. That's all it is.

• 42:30Speaker 02

  I wonder if if one member country has enough places like that make that danger list, if there's any sort of, maybe not even official penalty, but like, hey, listen, guys, you need to, you got three on the danger list now, you need to get it together.

• 42:46Josh Clark?

  Exactly. It's a really bad look.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  It is. It is a bad look.

• 42:51Josh Clark?

  Kind of talking about the politics of this, too, there was a, there was a really startling turn of events in 2020 where Recep Erdogan, the president of Turkey, unilaterally said, hey, the Hagia Sophia, this, this part, this part of world heritage, it was a cathedral, then a mosque, and now it's a museum, we're turning it back into a mosque. And UNESCO is like, we didn't talk about this. And Erdogan said, it doesn't matter, we're doing that. And this is like, I mean, this thing was built in the 530s. It's one of the more amazing buildings in the world. And in the 1930s, the court in Turkey said, this is a museum.

• 43:33Josh Clark?

  This is no longer a mosque. Turkey is secular, and that's all there is to it. So it's a museum until Erdogan came along in 2020 and changed it back.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, unilaterally decided this on his own. And UNESCO was like, hey, not only did you shouldn't have done this, but you didn't tell us you were doing this. And you're using this as like, this is a world heritage site now. You can't use it for your own political gain. You can't try and curry favor with the Turkish Islamic Turkish conservatives. And he was like, well, you know, uh, what'd he say? It's not a museum anymore and we're not charging entry fees anymore.

• 44:12Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Was that his like comeback?

• 44:14Josh Clark?

  I guess it was a comeback of sorts or a defense or something. He's like, you don't have to pay to get in anymore.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was pretty weak.

• 44:23Josh Clark?

  But that was 2020 and absolutely nothing happened. That's the other problem. This is a problem with almost everything that has to do with the UN. There's like, what are you gonna do? Really?

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:32Josh Clark?

  Like I, I, I'm fine. I don't care about peer pressure, you know, the international community being mad at me. That's all it takes and there's nothing that can be done about it.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Let me see, what else is on the danger list? You mentioned the Statue of Liberty, right? As far as some of the big dogs.

• 44:51Josh Clark?

  Mm hmm. Sea level rise.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, Great Barrier Reef, that's been threatened for a long time as are reefs all over the world. Very, very sad.

• 44:58Josh Clark?

  Ocean bleaching. Also, the Sydney Opera House is coming close to the danger list because of sea level rise as well.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Oh, man, it's right there on the water. You gotta protect that thing.

• 45:09Josh Clark?

  I know, man.

• 45:12Josh Clark?

  I say we go out, I just want to throw out a couple more of these amazing intangible ones that are protected. Okay?

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Great.

• 45:20Josh Clark?

  Midwifery from Germany to Togo. Sometimes this can cross cultures and midwifery is one of them.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  It should have been from like Albania to Zaire. That's how you gotta do those.

• 45:31Josh Clark?

  That would have been great.

• 45:35Josh Clark?

  I called Tiki, uh, horse breeding in Turkmenistan.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that one.

• 45:41Josh Clark?

  Here's a good one. Ceviche preparation in Peru.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  I'm all about that.

• 45:45Josh Clark?

  I am too. You'll also like this one, the Dia de los Muertos in Mexico, the Day of the Dead.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Hey, you know what? Here's a tip for especially for you and me and Emily. If you go, if you love that ceviche, you just gotta make sure you gotta say no pulpo.

• 46:03Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we, you don't eat octopus, right?

• 46:07Josh Clark?

  Oh, is that what that is? No, I definitely do not. They're too intelligent.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:10Josh Clark?

  It's cruel.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, we learned that in Mexico City that pulpo was the word. And so we were like, oh, okay. So that's what we need to avoid.

• 46:16Josh Clark?

  So you say, hold the pulpo?

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, or just get the, the one without it.

• 46:22Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  Like, I would never go to another country and say, can you not put this thing in there that you traditionally eat? Like, you can find a ceviche that's probably just fish or shrimp or scallop or whatever.

• 46:33Josh Clark?

  Oh, really? I feel like I take the Burger King approach to tourism where I was like, I'll have it my way.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 46:42Josh Clark?

  Uh, you got anything else?

• 46:44Speaker 02

  I got nothing else. This is, this is a fun one. I know this is something I knew nothing about. And now I feel like I know enough, which is our charge as a show, to like, talk a little bit about it intelligently around the dinner table.

• 46:55Josh Clark?

  And to attend UNESCO World Heritage Meetings and speak up.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, where do they have those? New York?

• 46:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, let's go.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  All right.

• 47:02Josh Clark?

  I'm sure anybody can just walk in. Uh, if you want to know more about UNESCO World Heritage, go check out some sites. You can tour the world from your computer, again, for free. Uh, and in the meantime, I think it's time for listener mail.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is from Stephen Cook from Halifax, Nova Scotia.

• 47:22Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Uh, who visited the Kowloon Walled City.

• 47:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, cool.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Uh, or at least the park. Um, hey, guys, visited that Kowloon Walled City Park this past December on our first trip to Hong Kong, and it's a delightful spot with sports facilities for nearby residents, some remnants of the original building foundations as a reminder of its past, and the one original building that is now a museum. Uh, that's the one we talked about.

• 47:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Uh, plus, there's a special exhibit that recreates a streetscape in the community using sets from the 2024 film Twilight of the Warriors: Walled Inn, which stars Hong Kong action legend Sam Oh Hung as a local crime boss named Mr. Big. I guess when you're this big, they call you mister. The set recreates a whole block with a barber shop, convenience store, shoe repair stand, and a fish ball making factory. With period props and decor, a visit is highly recommended. And Stephen included a few photos, which are great.

• 48:18Josh Clark?

  Oh, I can't wait to see this because I looked all over for the exhibit and I couldn't find any photos. I saw mention of it at some point.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, search that email, buddy, and it'll come up.

• 48:28Josh Clark?

  Thanks, Stephen. That was a great one. Yeah. If you have been to Kowloon, Walt City, let us know. We want to hear from all of you. And if you have anything to say, really, even hi, right Chuck?

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Hi and hello is a great thing to hear always.

• 48:42Josh Clark?

  Yes. You can send it via email to [email protected].

• 48:51Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 49:07Josh Clark?

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• 49:48Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of Vivgard. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of Vivgard on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody. I am here to talk to you about Dude Wipes, who offer fragrance-free wipes that are made with 99% water and plant-based ingredients. So they're gentle enough for sensitive skin, but they're tough enough for even the worst messes. Water cleans better, and Dude Wipes Flushable Wipes deliver textbook freshness and ultimate clean.

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