#330: The Return of Drunk Dialing Q&A: How to Ask Better Questions, Take Better Risks, and More!

This episode is a rare exception to the rule — unlike my usual long-form interviews, this is a drunk-dialing Q&A with you guys, which I’ve done a few times in the last few years, including for the celebration of the 100th episode http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/09/11/drunk-dialing/ of this podcast. In preparation for this episode, I solicited phone numbers from listeners who wanted to receive a call from me, and then I started drinking and dialing, answering questions and getting a little frisky along the way. This time, I came in hot, starting after a few preliminary drinks with friends on a weekend — so it's double trouble. I ended up covering topics including: How to reassess existing projects, specifically ones which you've put a lot of capital and time into, using 80/20 analysis and other tools. How to learn to care less about what people think, social perception, and how to minimize herd mentality. A framework for thinking about entrepreneurship, risk-taking, and how to cut your teeth as a business builder or creator. How to learn to ask better questions, whether in dating or sales. How to let the silence do the work. And so much more! Please enjoy this tequila-fueled Q&A! This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn https://LinkedIn.com/Tim and its job recruitment platform, which offers a smarter system for the hiring process. If you've ever hired anyone (or attempted to), you know finding the right people can be difficult. If you don't have a direct referral from someone you trust, you're left to use job boards that don't offer any real-world networking approach. 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Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Now would be an inappropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole-body health. I do get asked a lot, what I would take if I could only take one supplement, and the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me on the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science-driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole-food sourced nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one-year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first

• 1:04Tim Ferriss?

  subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out, go to drinkag1.com/tim. That's drink A-G-one, the number one, drinkag1.com/tim. Last time, drinkag1.com/tim. Check it out.

• 1:24Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, you crazy kids. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my want to investigate the habits and routines of world-class performers to try to tease out the various details that you might apply to your own life. This episode is a very different format. It is an odd one that has proven surprisingly popular for reasons that sometimes I don't quite understand, and that is a drunk dialing Q&A with all of you guys, which I've done a few times in the last few years. And here's how it works. I solicited phone numbers from listeners on Facebook and Twitter who wanted to receive a phone call from me, which they put into a Google form. Then, I told people

• 2:07Tim Ferriss?

  who the first, say, 10 to 20 were going to be. By posting it on social media and then I started drinking and dialing, answering questions and getting a little frisky along the way. In fact, this one, I came in hot. Started after a few preliminary drinks with friends on a weekend, so it's double trouble. I ended up covering topics including how to reassess existing projects, specifically ones which you've put a lot of capital and time into using 80/20 analysis and other tools, how to learn to care less about what people think, social perception, and how to minimize herd mentality, not saying I'm perfect in that regard, but I'm pretty good

• 2:47Tim Ferriss?

  and have approaches for sort of decreasing the perceived pressure around all those things, a framework for thinking about entrepreneurship, risk-taking, and how to cut your teeth as a business builder or creator, how to learn to ask better questions, whether in dating or sales, and how to let the silence do the work, and so much more. And all that preamble out of the way, please enjoy this tequila-fueled Q&A with all y'all.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  This is Danny.

• 3:19Tim Ferriss?

  Hey Danny, this is Tim Ferriss. Hey Danny, this is Tim Ferriss. I dropped my mic. How are you?

• 3:25Speaker 00

  I'm doing well, man. How are you?

• 3:26Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I'm clicking into sixth gear, which is sloppy gear. So you're catching me at a good point. This is just in the transition to probably 20% too much alcohol. How are you doing?

• 3:38Speaker 00

  I don't know, man. Relative to you, I'm not quite sure. How many glasses of wine are you in right now?

• 3:44Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, no, we're dealing with straight tequila. So I would say I'm

• 3:47Speaker 00

  Straight tequila?

• 3:48Tim Ferriss?

  Four or five glasses in, which is, I'd say, a pretty good spot. It's not completely haphazard, but it is well lubricated. Where are you at the moment?

• 4:00Speaker 00

  I am currently in Salt Lake City, Utah. Are you in Texas at the moment?

• 4:05Tim Ferriss?

  I am. The fine, the fine city of Austin in the Republic of Texas. Big fan of SLC, though. It's a good spot. So how can I assist this evening? What questions might you have?

• 4:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I kind of a two-part question and uh so essentially what it is is um aside from fear setting which is you know I've gone over multiple times is uh what process or system do you use or have you used in the past to essentially or effectively stop caring about what other people's um opinions are about you, your endeavors, things like that and then how do you go about building a world-class support system?

• 4:45Tim Ferriss?

  These could both go for a while, so I will try my best to provide a non-bullshit answer to either or both. Uh in terms of getting to the point where you care less or not at all about what other people think, let me drill into your your personal case. So what is what is there that you might want to do where caring about what other people think is inhibiting your ability to execute, whether for yourself or for the world at large in some capacity?

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, so for myself, it'd just be entrepreneurship as a whole, just because I grew up, oh, I'm an immigrant, so came to the States when I was four from Germany, family immigrated to Germany from Yugoslavia in the early 90s with all of the war and genocide going on. So the immigrant narrative is you're nobody unless you get a college degree. So naturally I'm competing against all of my family members in college who are all electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, et cetera, et cetera. So regardless of what ideas, ambitions, or anything else in that regard of capacity that I have, as long as I don't have a college degree, nobody values it and they're like, oh, you're just kind of spinning your wheels and wasting your time.

• 6:04Tim Ferriss?

  Got it. Okay, so it's not, it's so you're not then concerned about what prospective customers or people in the marketplace think of whatever you're starting, it's more of a question of family members?

• 6:17Speaker 00

  Correct. Just essentially getting out of the herd mentality, right? And just being able to effectively break away from that and not... Be bottomed down with just some of the things that are going to happen, you know, within my own circle.

• 6:30Tim Ferriss?

  This is tougher. This is tougher than the marketplace. I would say tougher but not impossible. I would recommend a few resources. This is not something that I've personally experienced, but it's something that a lot of my friends have experienced. It's very, very common, as you know, with immigrant families, right? Whether a lot of my friends are first generation, raised in the US from India, for instance. Exceptionally common. If you are not an engineer, lawyer, or doctor, or fill in the blank, then all of your motives and future prospects are suspect. What I have observed is that if you experience a degree

• 7:13Tim Ferriss?

  of success in entrepreneurship, then all sins are forgiven. And ultimately, people are very proud of what you've done. A few resources that I might recommend that I've found helpful in navigating maybe somewhat similar psychic space, and that I've seen other people benefit from, and that have come up a lot in interviews on the podcast, for instance, as it relates to some similar life experiences. One would be Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. The second, which has come up a lot, is The Magic of Thinking Big by David Schwartz. Both

• 7:57Tim Ferriss?

  of these books are quite short. I want to say both are certainly no longer than 250 pages and maybe less than 200 each. So you could read each in an afternoon, or certainly a single day. And aside from that, I would look for people who have done what you are trying to do.

• 8:19Tim Ferriss?

  Namely succeed as an entrepreneur as the child of immigrants who have

• 8:28Tim Ferriss?

  a security focused mindset, if I could be so bold as to assume that's the case, right?

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll confirm.

• 8:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and there are many, many, many such people to look to, whether that's

• 8:47Tim Ferriss?

  on the on the name brand side, you can certainly pick and choose. I'm more familiar with many of the Indian entrepreneurs who have done this based on spending time with organizations like the Indus Entrepreneur, TIE, which may or may not exist any longer, but it was certainly a major entity when I was first getting to know the Bay Area with nothing to my name, aside from really a piece of shit hand-me-down, green minivan.

• 9:15Tim Ferriss?

  And I've always found those stories to be exceptionally inspiring, but also to serve as proof of concept for you, to see that it can be done and that in fact, those people then end up not just being reconciled with their family, but very respected and honored and talked about by their family at the same time. So I think studying historical cases is very useful in a situation like this. Fear setting, certainly, we already talked about it, you already talked about it, I'm not going to belabor that.

• 9:50Tim Ferriss?

  Otherwise, I do think that, and Richa Chada, who's an Indian actress, certainly more than that, but talked about this in Tribe of Mentors, when she, I asked her what she did when she felt overwhelmed or unfocused, and she would ask, "So what?" So you really, you write down your fear, and this is different from fear setting, but she would ask, "So what?" five to eight times, let's just say, and you write down your fear, "This happens, so what?" And then you write the consequence or the preceding generative fear, and then "so what?" and then "so what?" and then "so what?" And by the time you really get to the bottom of one or two pages, you realize that the teeth just aren't there. Ultimately,

• 10:34Tim Ferriss?

  I'm making this up, this may not be true for you, but ultimately, like, your family will love you no matter what, they're just busting your balls about this particular thing, right?

• 10:44Tim Ferriss?

  If you fail in entrepreneurship, you can always go get a job. It may not be in electrical engineering, but if you wanted to and had to, you had a gun against your head, you had to go find a job that your parents would approve of, or your siblings would approve of, you could do that, right? Or you could at least get on a path that would lead to one of those jobs and therefore in and of itself be respectable to your family members. So that's another tool in the toolkit potentially. But I think that any modicum of success forgives all sins.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, the problem is getting to the initial one, right?

• 11:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, it is, it is. But look, I am not, I mean, my grandfather was the first of his family born in the United States on one side of my family, and I never dealt with having parents who were first-generation immigrants at all. But certainly, my parents have been unable to explain to anyone what Tim does for a living for a really, really long time. I mean, it was, it was very, very hard to explain. And once I had a label like author or podcaster that could be used, it made things a whole lot easier. And they were very supportive.

• 12:06Tim Ferriss?

  I don't want to say my parents weren't supportive, they were, but the labels and the success combine to give your parents or siblings a story that makes sense for them and that they can convey to other people. And you can help them to develop that narrative, if that makes sense.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  No, that's what makes sense.

• 12:28Tim Ferriss?

  And you can also help them to develop that narrative by introducing them to documentaries, or books, or stories, or articles about immigrants who have become entrepreneurs.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, irony in all of that is that like my dad and uncles and everybody else that came over here, first generation, are all entrepreneur immigrants, but for them, it's totally just still the number one priority for all things. So it's an interesting paradox.

• 12:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would, yeah, and here's, here's another thing I would say. It doesn't make you weak to care about what other people think. It makes you human.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:03Tim Ferriss?

  As a species, Homo sapiens would not have created, I mean arguably destroyed also, but what we have created without a concern for social perception and hierarchy. That is just part of the programming that we experience as a human being, and it serves a lot of productive purposes. So I wouldn't judge yourself too harshly for caring what other people think. You just have to equally care about what you think.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, and a, and a good way to learn to care about what you think is to take it out of your head and to put it onto paper, whether that's through fear setting, through the five minute journal or something like that, morning pages and so on. I really find that I cannot grapple productively with my own thoughts until I have trapped them on paper in some fashion.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  No, that makes complete sense. I appreciate that.

• 13:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, so hopefully that helps. If it doesn't, I apologize. But what, what else, what else do you have for me?

• 14:06Speaker 00

  I guess I don't know if you necessarily answered that within the initial question, but just going about building, I guess, a world-class support system or just, you know, getting in the right network or group of people. You were in Silicon Valley around a bunch of, you know, Angel and MCT and kind of that tech industry, which initially helped open a lot of doors for you and kind of broke down a lot of barriers to help you get your foot in the door and, you know, become as successful as you are or were in that field.

• 14:32Tim Ferriss?

  Let's get specific. So what do you need a support system for? What are you trying to achieve? What do you think you need one for?

• 14:39Speaker 00

  Right, and so I guess it just ties into going into, just my ambitions of entrepreneurship and branching out and just essentially doing my own thing and...

• 14:48Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, which is totally fine, but their entrepreneurship is very, very broad.

• 14:56Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:57Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, that could be any... No, no, no, you don't have to apologize. It's very common that people want to man their own ship and carve their own course, but it will help me to think about the question if we have some degree of specificity. And if you're trying to pick, and this is something I've mentioned before, but the five people with whom to associate with most, whether they're in the form of books, in-person mentors, or otherwise, you do need the specificity to help you target, whether that's a skill set or certain types of characteristics that you want to develop.

• 15:42Tim Ferriss?

  So what do you want to do in the world of entrepreneurship? I mean, who are the people you aspire to be like? What are the projects that you would love to be a part of? And, you know, where are you in that journey also? I mean, do you have a company with 10 employees? Do you have a company with one employee, namely you? Do you have no company, but you're thinking about starting something? Where are you at the moment?

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so for context, essentially, I look at individuals such as yourself, like Gary Vaynerchuk, John D. Rockefeller, Steve Jobs, obviously not aiming to hit those heights just because there's so much luck involved in that. But those are the, if you got to some of the people that I bring to the forefront often and think about often. And as far as pulling the trigger and doing something, I've always gone to the point of building something, building up a system, essentially having everything set up on my end, but then just never pulling the trigger and going live. Right now, I work at a small startup in San Francisco, based actually, with an office in Utah, with those operations, analysts, and do a lot of building and sales for us, but essentially I'm just trying to branch

• 16:46Speaker 00

  out, do my own thing, and in the realm of social and chat, or some sort of cross, a hybrid between the two.

• 16:57Tim Ferriss?

  What do you want to get, what do you think you might get through entrepreneurship that you don't get through your current job?

• 17:05Speaker 00

  Kind of being the captain of my own ship, I've never, it's never sat well with me kind of being that guy where it's like, okay, here's your job, here's your role, here's what we think you're capable of, and here's your pay relative to what we think your skill set is, and what you can handle, and then go ahead and plan your life according to that. I'd essentially just like to have more autonomy, be able to go on my own life, my own agenda, my own calendar, do whatever I want to do, and my will, and then I'm also recently married, I'm coming up in two years of marrying, and trying to start a family in the next couple of years, so essentially giving them a one up or better foundation than what I had started on. And I just love the game of business.

• 17:44Tim Ferriss?

  Well, if you had to start a business tomorrow, you got fired, and you need to start generating income within, let's just call it eight weeks, you have eight weeks of severance, ah, we can make it 12, let's be generous, you have 12 weeks of severance, you have health insurance for a year, let's just assume.

• 18:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:02Tim Ferriss?

  What would you do?

• 18:04Speaker 00

  Uh, I'd go into e-commerce, and build something on Shopify, and do whatever market research necessary, and just get something going.

• 18:12Tim Ferriss?

  What would you sell?

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Probably apparel.

• 18:16Tim Ferriss?

  Apparel, why would you sell apparel?

• 18:19Speaker 00

  Now you're grilling me. Um, I feel like I could find some sort of niche to fill, as far as being, you know, people identifying with some sort of group or industry, whether it's just doing things out there for the sake of throwing things out there, but whether it's apparel that's geared towards entrepreneurship, I've seen a lot of things trending where it's like, crypto investors, and Bitcoin, and stuff like that, I know it's trendy, it's not going to be long-term, but something that would effectively just help me get from point A to point B in the meantime.

• 18:53Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so here's what I would suggest as a framework for thinking about entrepreneurship.

• 19:04Tim Ferriss?

  Entrepreneurship is not mutually exclusive with employment. And, truth be told, I think the best way to cut your teeth as an entrepreneur is doing so while you have a paycheck.

• 19:21Tim Ferriss?

  Even though people might think of me as a risk taker and someone with a high tolerance for risk, I don't think of myself that way. And for the record, I've interviewed people like Richard Branson, for instance, they do not think of themselves that way either. First and foremost, they're looking at how to mitigate risk. So I would suggest that if that is what you would do as an entrepreneur, that you spend, say, every Friday night and Saturday for the next eight weeks, developing that business. Or Sunday afternoons and evenings, whatever it might be, so that you have the security of the paycheck you're receiving, you are fulfilling your obligations to your employer,

• 20:04Tim Ferriss?

  while simultaneously cutting your teeth and testing the assumptions that are underpinning your belief that apparel and e-commerce could be the business that provides you with the freedom you seek. And there is no right answer here. I should also emphasize, in the sense that, for better or for worse, the American dream and the media machines that exist in our country highlight the entrepreneurs who seemingly throw caution to the wind, bet the farm, and win big.

• 20:44Tim Ferriss?

  That is not how most entrepreneurs succeed and in fact, that is not how most humans achieve a life of fulfillment and financial security and contentment. There is no shame in determining that you are a really, really, really good lieutenant or general who can execute on orders and take something that would overwhelm other people in complexity or fill in the blank perimeter and turn a plan into reality. That is incredibly powerful gift and if you do that within the confines of a company,

• 21:27Tim Ferriss?

  that is in no way indicative of a lower value than being an entrepreneur staring off into space and trying to figure out what the fuck to do. So I just, even though, I mean, I am an entrepreneur because I am a shitty, shitty, shitty, shitty, shitty employee, basically. And I'm proud of that in some capacities, but I'm also ashamed of that in other capacities. I mean, there are severe personality and interpersonal deficits that make my entrepreneurship a necessity and not an option. Does that make sense? Right. And furthermore, I am not a good manager of people. I'm very good at figuring out systems.

• 22:11Tim Ferriss?

  I'm very, very, very good at figuring out processes. I'm not a good manager of people. I have certain Achilles heels, including unreasonable impatience and perfectionism and other things that lead me to be very difficult to work with and very difficult to work for, certainly. And I don't wear those as a badge of honor. I think those are handicaps in many respects and there's no way that I could possibly be the CEO of, say, a publicly traded company. It would not, I wouldn't pass go in a situation like that. So I have my sweet spot. Other people have their sweet spots and you are gonna have your sweet spot.

• 22:52Tim Ferriss?

  And I wouldn't judge yourself harshly at all if that ends up being sort of a special purpose weapon inside a company for doing X, Y, and Z, right? But, the way you test your assumptions related to entrepreneurship is by doing so in a moonlighting capacity. So I would, I would take what it is you think you could do when you quit your job and do that now. I wouldn't, I wouldn't test those assumptions when you've already cut the umbilical cord and you no longer have the financial security of a paycheck. So I would do that now. And I've seen a lot of really, really, really, really good companies started that way.

• 23:37Tim Ferriss?

  But, you know, for the sake of your sanity and financial security and also the security of your family to be if you're considering moving on that, I would absolutely moonlight. What that's gonna mean is you're gonna have to put in extra time in addition to your job, whether it's on evenings or weekends or otherwise, and guess what? Like, that is what you're signing up for if you're, if you choose to be an entrepreneur. If you're currently working eight hours a day, for at least the first six to 12 months, you're gonna be working, you know, 12, 14 hours a day. And, almost without exception, that is a foregone conclusion. So you might as well get used to that

• 24:19Tim Ferriss?

  in terms of additional hours per week and see how you handle it psychologically, physically, and otherwise, because that is par for the course, for at least the first six to 12 months, without any necessary guarantee of success

• 24:35Tim Ferriss?

  in the, in the longer term. So those are, those are a few possibilities to consider, but I would absolutely make sure that you moonlight and test your entrepreneurial chops and develop your entrepreneurial skills while you still have full-time income. I think that's a very cautious, but ultimately intelligent way to approach things.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  That makes sense, and I appreciate your insight.

• 25:00Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, all right. Anything, anything else? I know that probably, uh, hopefully that's not completely underwhelming as recommendation, but I, I, I would really, I would really just fucking get to it. Like if you're gonna be an entrepreneur, you don't have to wait until you quit your job. Like start now, like start tonight, start this weekend, like just fucking get on it. It's like, all right, set up your Shopify, start doing your market research to determine exactly what you're gonna test first and what you can dry test before you do any manufacturing, or are there options like teespring or otherwise that enable you to begin to kick the tires? And see if what you think is gonna resonate and sell will actually resonate and sell? So on and so forth.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  Right. Um, no, and then, I mean, I'm hope I'm not closing on your time, but I have one more question that's not necessarily business or entrepreneurship related, and hopefully it wouldn't, it's not a long-winded answer either.

• 25:54Tim Ferriss?

  Go for it. I'll try to, I'll try to, I'll try to keep my inebriated ass to a few sentences. Go for it.

• 26:00Speaker 00

  There you go. So, um, how would you, or have you, um, kind of found a foundation on how to balance a caloric surplus, like heavy intensive hypertrophy regimen routine, but also mix in, um, intermittent fasting or ketogenic? Or is it just kind of, you know, the binary, you're either doing one or the other? Or have you found a way to mix the two, you know, to some capacity?

• 26:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would say you're doing either, well, at least in my, in my case, you're doing one or the other. So right now I'm in tequila, chocolate chip cookie, like bullshit caloric surplus mode because I've been having a tough week. So I've been just completely blowing every rule. And, um, yeah, basically aging and dying as quickly as possible while getting fat in the process. So there, there's

• 26:52Speaker 00

  What a beautiful ending.

• 26:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, there's kind of that like garbage mode, which is what I'm in right now. I try not to do that too, too often, but I'm, I'm currently there because I've, I've had a motherfucker of a couple of weeks. And, uh, then you have the programmatic hypertrophy.

• 27:08Tim Ferriss?

  Likely high insulin growth mode, which is very much performance focused and not longevity focused. And I will schedule periods during which I achieve ketosis and that is very frequently through fasting. So I will, and this is something that should be done with medical supervision, but I will do, generally speaking, a minimum of three contiguous days of fasting per month. And then I will do five to 10 day fasts at least once per year, ideally three to four times per year. And that is something that you should speak with your doctor about.

• 27:51Tim Ferriss?

  But otherwise, I do not generally sustain long periods of ketosis because I find it so dietarily boring as all fuck. It's awful. It's really, really boring. And this is particularly true if you remove dairy, which I've tried to do because my lipid profile goes sideways if I consume cheese and dairy while in ketosis, which is something that I've identified, which is not that uncommon, in fact. So I treat the, I would say, performance focused periods as quite separate from my longevity slash autophagy focused periods, which could involve fasting, it could involve going hypocaloric,

• 28:36Tim Ferriss?

  it could involve intermittent fasting, it could involve fast mimicking diets à la Victor Longo, or any number of other things. I don't currently use anything like metformin or rapamycin, but at some point could incorporate one or both of those, and so on and so forth. But I do treat those as quite separate, much like looking at bodybuilders going through, say, bulking and cutting phases, although that's mostly aesthetically focused, certainly reflects a certain caloric load and macronutrient ratio that I tend to alternate between. I don't, I don't try to achieve both at the same time.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  No, man, that's in and I really appreciate the time, like, you know, I was freaking out and ecstatic that I made the shortlist.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  Appreciate you giving me a call and doing your time to helping me out, trying to help me get started and going. And the only thing I'm just curious to know is when can I take you to lunch sometime when you're in Salt Lake?

• 29:41Tim Ferriss?

  Well, you know what? I might throw it up on social when I'm next there, so you can keep an eye out for that. But I can't make any promises beyond that. However, I would like to ask that you just fucking get after it. So, we're recording this on a Thursday, so I'd say this weekend. You know, you are now an entrepreneur, starting right now. So, don't quit your job and get started on testing the rest of it in your off-hours.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Awesome. Thanks so much, dude. I appreciate it.

• 30:10Tim Ferriss?

  Of course. My pleasure. Have a great night.

• 30:12Speaker 00

  Good night, man.

• 30:14Tim Ferriss?

  Hello?

• 30:15Speaker 04

  Hello?

• 30:16Tim Ferriss?

  This is Joseph.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  This is?

• 30:19Tim Ferriss?

  Joseph.

• 30:20Speaker 04

  Timothy?

• 30:21Tim Ferriss?

  This is Timothy. Good evening.

• 30:23Speaker 04

  How are you, sir?

• 30:24Tim Ferriss?

  I'm doing well. I am all yours, so please fire away. What can I help with? What can I answer, if anything?

• 30:32Speaker 04

  First, like most people, I'm sure, I want to thank you for everything. I found your book through the Barbell Shrug Guys.

• 30:42Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, good crew.

• 30:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, and because of them, I found podcasts and I found you and I found your books. And I've become one of your, what, thousand true fans, as Kevin Kelly would say, so, thank you.

• 31:00Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you for listening.

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Well, thank you for doing what you do. So, I know you have a lot of projects and you're always, you've got a shit-ton of balls in the air. You know, and I consider myself kind of a jack of many trades, or a dilettante in training, if you will. And with that comes, like, I have a diverse group of interests and things that I like to... I'm always trying to pursue something different. And you've talked several times about the advice that you were given when it comes to picking projects that you only have, like, six rounds or bullets a year to pull the trigger on. And the more that you try to... If you try anymore, it pulls you in too many directions.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  So, uh, how do you pick projects and how do you know what to pull the trigger on and what to let go? Cause I'm constantly trying to always like the next shiny object. So.

• 31:57Tim Ferriss?

  That's a good question. It's very timely for me as well because quite frankly, I've taken on too many projects and also realized that many of the projects I'm working on currently are legacy projects. In other words, the reasons for starting them seemed valid a year ago, two years ago, six months ago. And now with new information, with the ability to test those projects, some of which have underperformed, some which have overperformed. There's an inclination to continue doing those things we've invested a lot into, uh, due to sunk cost fallacy and so on.

• 32:37Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm at a point right now where I'm reassessing not only the projects that I might do, new projects, but really putting under scrutiny a lot of my current projects. And the way that I'm going about that right now is number one, doing a lot of hypothetical journaling, or it's actually real journaling, but based on hypothetical questions. And namely, if I stop doing X, what might be the upside? What might, how, how might it be a good thing or a great thing? Projects that I've put a lot of energy, time, capital, resources into, right?

• 33:17Tim Ferriss?

  And forcing myself to write out a full page of bullets or a full page of sentences for each of these projects that is consuming a disproportionate amount of my time primarily. So if we're looking at 80/20 analysis, which is something I come back to repeatedly, Pareto's Law and so on, Four Hour Workweek and elsewhere that I've written about it. Where I'll ask myself, what are the 20% of projects right now that are consuming 80% or more of my time? Or what are the 20% of projects or relationships that are currently producing 80% or more of the phone calls, conference calls, email, and other types of, in most cases, noise, right? And those go on the chopping block for consideration, uh, for elimination.

• 34:02Tim Ferriss?

  And really what I've realized for myself and I'm, but what I'm going through right now is recognizing that. It's always easier to look at the shiny new project versus looking at your current roster and deciding which children to kill in terms, as it relates to projects. So I'm trying very hard not to say yes to new things until I've streamlined my current operations, right? If you're 10% from the breaking point at all times and you take on more projects, it's a foregone conclusion that eventually that's not going to work. And so currently, I literally just did this last night. I sit down, I'm spending time on morning pages,

• 34:41Tim Ferriss?

  as I've written about before. So Julia Cameron morning pages. And I'm also doing an 80/20 analysis on the positive side. And that applies on a few different dimensions. Number one is financial, right? So I'm looking at where the income is actually coming from, and what are the handful of projects or activities, in my case, let's just say, podcast, and a handful of other things that generally generate the vast majority of monthly, annual income. And then looking at ways to streamline that. And the question that I would

• 35:22Tim Ferriss?

  ask there, which is something I've wrote about, I believe, in Tribe of Mentors, was what might this look like if it were easy, right? So the way I'm answering your question may be somewhat dissatisfying, but the point being that it's what I've learned over time is that you really need to basically put your current projects in front of the judge and jury for possible execution before you even consider what to say yes to in the new category. On the new category, what I might look at are projects that, or tasks that make the other possible projects

• 36:02Tim Ferriss?

  and tasks either irrelevant or much easier. For instance, I'm looking at, say, I'll give you a list of projects that could be on my plate. One would be doing another book similar to Tribe of Mentors, where I have A hundred to two hundred experts of various types weighing in, answering the same set or similar set of questions. The next could be, I work on a feature film screenplay that I then intend to produce and direct, or at least produce, to have some creative control over. Then I could

• 36:41Tim Ferriss?

  put on that same list, I want to, from soup to nuts, start to finish, beg, borrow, and steal to get Robert Rodriguez's attention to, from the first word of the screenplay to the finished product, work on a handful of short films. And so on and so forth. And what, if I look at those three, I might decide that it's in my best interest to not do the feature film first, because I would learn so much through the process with Robert before doing that, that it would behoove me to tackle a handful of short films, or even one or two, so that that will better inform the decisions I make with the higher stakes project, which would

• 37:22Tim Ferriss?

  be the feature film. I may further decide that it makes sense to do another book, where perhaps I invite the twenty to fifty figures in entertainment and feature film and so on, who I might later want to collaborate with, to contribute in some fashion, right? And in that sense, I think about the logical progression that will make each subsequent project easier. And I remember I heard it said at one point, this might have been from Tony Robbins, but I may be misattributing it, that we could have been, who knows, any number of people. In any case, in effect, that we overestimate what we can achieve, say, in a day or a month, but we underestimate what we could get done in three to five years

• 38:06Tim Ferriss?

  or ten years. And for me, it's come down to realizing that you can do, you can actually do everything, just about everything. You just can't do it at the same time. So you have to figure out the logical progression that puts you ahead. And when in doubt, choosing projects that help you to develop skills and relationships that trans- Send any single given project because you might look at, for instance, a single project like Four Hour Chef, which was a tremendous amount of work. It was a huge investment of time. It was a suicidal schedule, very proud of the outcome. But ultimately, from a commercial standpoint, because it was the first major acquisition through Amazon Publishing,

• 38:49Tim Ferriss?

  it was boycotted everywhere and the sales were quite disappointing to me certainly because we didn't have the distribution necessary. And you could look at that as an abject failure, but in doing that for print distribution, I got to know the people at HMH, Houghton Mifflin, Harcourt, which then went on to publish Tools of Titans and Tribe of Mentors, both of which ended up being number one. So I developed the relationship with those people, was able to kick the tires, learn their strengths and weaknesses, while also developing other skills than later informed bigger projects, arguably speaking. So that's a long answer, but I would encourage you to also

• 39:32Tim Ferriss?

  pick up a book, it's very short, I've read it dozens of times, called The Effective Executive. In fact, saying it right now makes me realize that I should reread it myself, but The Effective Executive by Peter Drucker would be one place that I would also turn to as a resource when trying to make decisions about your time, which ultimately every decision or almost every decision comes down to. So those would be a few guidelines that I would suggest, at least as having been helpful for me in the past.

• 40:04Speaker 04

  So, so just to basically figure out what you're doing that's sucking all the energy that you could be using on something that you would care more about and get rid of those and then go back and when you're picking new projects, figure out what your end goal is and figure out the best project that will get you the skills to get you the end goal, even if it doesn't take you directly there.

• 40:29Tim Ferriss?

  Right, the progression of projects that will get you to one

• 40:36Tim Ferriss?

  Longer-term objective, even if it's just a placeholder, that may totally change, but as long as you're amassing skills and developing relationships, those are more adaptable than is important the report card for any single project, at least if you're thinking longer term.

• 40:52Speaker 04

  Makes sense.

• 40:53Tim Ferriss?

  So that would be, yeah, that'd be my recommendation. All right, if you have one more that's short, I'll take a stab at it, but otherwise, we can, we can decide how to move on.

• 41:05Speaker 04

  You always talk about your five people. Who are your five people?

• 41:10Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, this is a good question, and the five people change. So I would say that very often, they are, I mean, they're almost always close friends of mine, just by virtue of the question, you know, who are the five people you associate with most? And for those people who don't have the context, I and many other people have said, you know, you're the average of the five people you associate with most, whether it's physically, emotionally, psychologically, whatever it might be. Remotely, I still spend a lot of time with close friends of mine who I admire and aspire to be more like in certain ways. Naval Ravikant, Kevin Rose, Matt Mullenweg would all be on my list. Then, looking at, say, people closer to me geographically now, since I live in Austin,

• 41:55Tim Ferriss?

  Texas, you would have Robert Rodriguez, I think Aubrey Marcus, CEO of Onnit, actually has a lot figured out, and not only figured out, but implemented in a very systematic way, that is hard to appreciate until you've actually spent a lot of time around him. And so forth and so on. I would say Ray Dalio is also on that list. I don't spend as much time with him as I would like, but certainly from a reasoning and planning from first principles perspective, one of the more impressive guys that you'll ever come across. So those are a few folks on my list, and they all have a lot of writing and recording out there. So it's possible to learn from them, even if you don't know them directly.

• 42:39Tim Ferriss?

  All right, my friend, well, I'll tell you what, I need to keep drinking and keep dialing, so you have a wonderful night, and appreciate the questions.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 42:51Tim Ferriss?

  Hi, is this Regina?

• 42:53Speaker 02

  Oh my god, this... Hi.

• 42:56Tim Ferriss?

  It's...

• 42:56Speaker 02

  Yes, this is Regina.

• 42:58Tim Ferriss?

  This is Tim Ferriss, I'm looking at your area code, it is late as hell where you are, I'm not gonna...

• 43:04Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, I, um, yeah, it's late, but it's okay.

• 43:11Tim Ferriss?

  You know, you are my last call of the evening, so I appreciate you being awake. Are you game for a short conversation?

• 43:20Speaker 02

  I am, yeah.

• 43:21Tim Ferriss?

  Alright, perfect. Well, I guess, I guess it's, what is it, it's probably like 2:30 in the morning, or something like that where you are, maybe 1:30 in the morning? In any case, uh, I am well warmed up and happy to try to answer any questions that you might have. I can't make any quality guarantees, but I will certainly give it a shot, so, how can I help?

• 43:44Speaker 02

  Uh, so first, thank you for calling.

• 43:46Tim Ferriss?

  My pleasure.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  Um, and I guess, my first question is, since I am the last call, how much have you partaken?

• 43:57Tim Ferriss?

  Ah, fine question. I've had, I would say, five moderate glasses of tequila and soda. So I'm, I'm very much, uh, I'm not gonna say levitating, but, uh, I feel light on my feet, which I think is more a reflection of the alcohol than anything else. But I'm not completely incoherent, so it's a good middle ground, I would say.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Fair enough, well, that's decent then. I guess my question for you would be a good one, because I always have a hard problem with this. How do you come up with questions to ask people, to ask the right questions, to be a good interviewer, so that, um, you are getting to know them very well, or getting the right answers, or the answers that are interesting for your listeners?

• 44:49Tim Ferriss?

  The way I approach that is not thinking of my listeners at all, quite frankly. I ask the questions that relate to

• 44:59Tim Ferriss?

  personal pains, or personal goals, or dreams that I have. And I assume that that will apply to some percentage of my listeners, but it's a very personal journey for me, and there's a bit more planning to it in the sense that if I'm talking to someone who is very, very frequently interviewed, who has a lot of public exposure, then I will try to avoid questions that are frequently asked for the first, say, twenty to thirty minutes of the interview. But if we're looking at the overarching approach, I would say it is intense curiosity and a focus on my own personal needs that drives the questions I ask.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  Okay, that makes sense. You've been asked quite a lot of questions, and you've told us quite a lot, I guess, over the years about things that probably we already had questions for. I would like to know the answer to, because I struggle with that, just in general, personally, because I'm more of a listener than a talker. So even amongst, like, if I'm dating, or a friend or something like that, I find it hard to come up with questions that make the other person feel like I'm interested, because I'm usually the type of person that's like, anything that I'm told, or how things just unfold naturally, is how I, I guess I feel comfortable learning about someone.

• 46:26Tim Ferriss?

  The questions don't have to be, yeah, I mean, the questions don't have to be sophisticated at all. In fact, one way to ask questions is just to be quiet. So I was told by Cal Fussman, who wrote the What I Learned column for Esquire for decades, and primarily wrote that column, interviewed everyone, from George Clinton to Gorbachev to President Bush and so on, and every single celebrity in between. He told me at one point, "Let the silence do the work." You don't have to ask questions per se to be a good conversationalist, but there are also very, very short questions that you can ask following almost any statement from

• 47:11Tim Ferriss?

  someone else, such as, you know, "What did you learn from that?" Or, "How did that make you feel?" They're very, very short questions that you can ask that can then prompt someone to talk for two to five to 10 minutes. It doesn't have to be anything groundbreaking or particularly innovative. And in fact, if you try to come up with really clever questions, it very often comes off as disingenuous or artificial. So simple tends to work really well, in my experience.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, I guess like to piggyback off of that, my other thing is that I always feel like I'm asking a question that might be a little too personal. Do you ever feel that way, like when you're thinking of things or following with a conversation? Like, "How did I ask this question?" Or is this too much?

• 48:02Tim Ferriss?

  What would be an example of a question you might ask that would be too personal?

• 48:06Speaker 02

  I don't know. Sometimes, I guess it's for me, I'm the type of person that, I grew up, like as a child, when I was younger, I grew up with a lot of, like my family members being older than me because I'm the youngest. So I was always in that situation where it was like, you know, child's face in a child's place, you don't ask that question, or, you know, you only talk when spoken to, kind of thing, like when I was younger. And it's kind of rolled over. So any, even something as simple as... If I'm dating someone or like asking questions to get to know each other, um, asking anything like how to know um, which questions asking about the past or asking about, um, you know, past, um, people they've dated or things like that, like how, you know, what happened at the end of the last relationship.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Like sometimes I feel like that question might be a little too personal for someone. Um, just asking them off of that and I kind of wait for that conversation to be brought up by them so that it's brought up in a way they're comfortable with. Um, so I guess that kind of stops me from asking a lot of the questions that I am curious about because I don't want to come off too forward.

• 49:08Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, well, I don't know if the questions are too personal. They might just be too early, right? So

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:16Tim Ferriss?

  I- in a context like that, you don't want to jump from like the intellectual equivalent of like a pat on the shoulder to like heavy petting in ten seconds flat, right? You don't want to just emotionally sideswipe someone where they're like, holy shit, like this woman's asking me about like my most embarrassing, humiliating moment of my life and we barely got drinks already, right? Okay, this is, this is, this is too much for me to handle. Uh, is that the only context or are there other contexts? Is it primarily in a dating context that you're concerned about this or there are other contexts where this affects you?

• 49:53Speaker 02

  Um, well, uh, for the past year, I'm still learning how to be a travel agent. So, you know, like in sales, it's just asking qualifying questions, asking the right questions, um, asking questions that build rapport. So, um, sometimes, you know, like you're meeting someone and some people tell you things that you may not have even wanted to know, but they just kind of roll along with the conversation and they let themselves, like they just talk. And that's kind of where I feel more comfortable. But then when it's an instance where you have someone who you want to Tried, because I'm kind of an introvert, so it's a lot easier for me to listen to someone else talk than it is for me to try to facilitate that conversation, to make it flow so that it does

• 50:34Speaker 02

  seem natural, like I'm having a conversation with someone, but also getting the information I need to give them the product that they're looking for, because they don't know necessarily what they're looking for. That's why they've come to us. So I have to ask them the questions to get those answers to provide them something that makes them feel like I understand.

• 50:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, totally. So first and foremost, being an introvert is not a handicap. I am very much, I would view myself as an introvert who can pretend to be an extrovert for limited periods of time.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:05Tim Ferriss?

  Don't get fancy. So for instance, when someone's telling you something, you can just say, "Tell me more about that." Really, "Give me an example. Could you tell me more about that? How does that make you feel? Why is this important?" I mean, there are questions like that, which are very, very simple, that keep someone talking, and eventually they're going to give you that nugget of information that helps you to better design a solution for them, or find the answer to a specific need they had, which they couldn't articulate if you simply asked them, "What do you need?" They wouldn't be able to give you the right answer.

• 51:50Tim Ferriss?

  So, I mean, if you really just had five to 10 of these follow-up questions noted down on a piece of paper in front of you, you would be able to pick and choose, which by the way, is exactly what I often do or did, at least for the first 100 podcasts that I had on this show. So it's, there's no shame in that. I think that it's very, very helpful to have a go-to portfolio of follow-up questions, which are very, very short and very, very simple, to keep people talking. In at least a sales context, and that's true, in my experience, for dating as well. If you didn't want to ask about how their last relationship ended...

• 52:35Tim Ferriss?

  Right? You could ask them, like, well, how did you end up using Tinder? Like, how, how long have you been doing da-da-da-da? What led you to that? Right, you can ask questions which get them to the same end, which out with, without coming off as like the psycho who's going for the jugular right away. Do you know what I mean? And like, trust me, I've, I've been that, I've been that person, right? Like, I get it. But it's like you can, you can, you can kinda tiptoe around it while leading them to the story of what brought them to where they are today, without being exceptionally direct about it. And for instance, if I'm interviewing someone who's dealt with a scandal,

• 53:19Tim Ferriss?

  and my podcast isn't about scandals, it's not about gotcha, but maybe I want to explore the emotional terrain that reflects how they reacted to some very difficult set of circumstances. If I, if I ask them directly, "How did you respond to this event that happened when such-and-such person accused you of such-and-such thing?" They're gonna shut down. That is a non-starter. But if I ask them, and I know something happened within the last three years, and I ask them, you know, "Could you, could you tell me, people listening to this podcast will think, based on your bio, based on all the successes you've had,

• 54:02Tim Ferriss?

  that every time you step up to the plate, you hit home runs?" And I feel like that is inspiring on one hand, but very intimidating on the other. So I'd like to try to humanize you a bit. Can you tell us about a really difficult situation or circumstance in the last handful of years, and how you responded to it? Right? Framing it that way opens the door to allow them to introduce it without hitting them with a full-frontal assault that is gonna make them defensive.

• 54:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 54:35Tim Ferriss?

  Right?

• 54:36Speaker 02

  That makes sense, yeah.

• 54:37Tim Ferriss?

  So that's, that's an indirect way to approach something that allows someone else to feel like they're taking the initiative and introducing a topic that may be uncomfortable to them.

• 54:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that's my biggest problem is because I'm afraid to ask the question in any way, so I don't. And then the other person maybe feels like, oh, you know, she's not a good conversationalist, or she doesn't care um to ask anything about me because she never asks any questions that are, you know, deeper than the typical question. So I can ask indirect questions that makes the conversation start falling and gives them control over what they tell me.

• 55:14Tim Ferriss?

  Furthermore, I would, I would recommend that you practice when it doesn't matter. Right? So don't just practice with sales prospects. Don't just practice with people you're dating, you have the hots for, and that you want to have, you know, babies with. Don't do that. Like, wait, like, actually, you know what I mean? Where you're like, oh, my god.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:35Tim Ferriss?

  This one could be the one. Like, that's not the time to practice. The time to practice is when you're like, talking to like, fucking Joe Blow in line at Starbucks, you're like, alright, I don't give a shit what this guy thinks. Like, that's the time, that's the time to practice. And it's the, it's the same skill set, it is the same toolkit, is the same portfolio of go-to questions that you can utilize on a regular basis so you develop a level, a baseline level of comfort with this repertoire so that you can then, as second nature, use it very naturally when it matters. So that would be my, one of my recommendations is, practice when it doesn't matter.

• 56:20Tim Ferriss?

  Whether that is negotiating, a pick-up line, a follow-up question, a simple way of bridging one topic to the next, really go out of your way to practice when it doesn't matter.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah, that makes, that makes sense. So then my other question would be to follow up from that.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  How, I actually don't have a lot of situations where I could ask those questions where it doesn't matter because I pretty much just go to work, go to the gym and then come home.

• 56:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Um, so, I mean, well, actually, I guess I've kind of already been doing that. Um, cause I, I crossfit, so it's, you know, like eight people, ten people, um, with their classes, the times that I go to. And I've kind of already been trying to, um, talk more with people at class as opposed to just like going to class, going to the shower and leaving. Um, and I've kind of already been doing that, but I guess I can start making a set list of, of follow-up questions that help um, move the conversation along to get to know people that I'm talking about. Um, that definitely helps having things set already, cause I work better that way when I kind of already know how I'm supposed to do things.

• 57:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, you have, right, get an index card, write down the five questions and just make it happen. You're not gonna find time to do it, so you have to create time to do it. And that could be, you know, the boyfriend watching the dog while his girlfriend's doing some god awful, you know, Francis CrossFit workout or whatever. That's alright, that's the guy, you're like, alright, that's my dude, that's the guy I'm practicing on. You walk over like, hey, what's your fucking dog's name? Oh, cool, really? Like, how'd you choose that dog? Oh, wow, what's the story behind that? Right? That's another good question. Like, what's the story behind X? Huh, how'd you decide on Y? Huh, that's interesting.

• 58:11Tim Ferriss?

  That's interesting to me, tell me more about that, right? Like, tell me more about that, it's such a lazy, useful statement.

• 58:19Tim Ferriss?

  How did you decide that? How did that make you feel? That sounds crazy, I don't know how I'd respond to that. Okay, boom, then you got another, you just bought a three to five minute story. And just practice that stuff, you have to, you're not gonna find time to do it, so you have to make time to do it. If you make it a priority, it will serve you. If you don't make it a priority, it's not gonna help you. Uh, so that would be in my drunken stupor, a Yoda-like line that may or may not help.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  So I, I think that was a very coherent answer to my question, given the fact that you've had five.

• 58:54Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, fantastic. Well, I, I should let you get some sleep and I should probably also take my dog out for a walk and do the same thing. So, uh,

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Well, thank you for calling, Tim.

• 59:08Tim Ferriss?

  My pleasure and good luck. This stuff, honestly, listening to my first few podcasts, especially the first one when Kevin Rose is busting my balls, it's rough. It's really, really rough. This is a craft. This is something you can learn and practice and I, I really believe anyone can get better at it because it is so straightforward, if you make the time, how you can deliver questions to humans you encounter. It's not, it's not difficult or it's not complex. You just have to put yourself out there and endure a small amount of discomfort with the uncertainty of how someone will respond. And if you're willing

• 59:53Tim Ferriss?

  to do that, you can get a lot better at this in a very, very short period of time. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the, the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite

• 1:00:35Tim Ferriss?

  articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. Whether you need a logo, custom website, app, book cover, or anything else, 99designs was created to make great design accessible to everyone, that's you, and to make the process as easy as possible. I've used 99designs for years now. I've used them for book covers, some mockups for The 4-Hour Body, which went on to become

• 1:01:20Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:02:04Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:03:29Tim Ferriss?

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