Gregg Renfrew Is Making Counter Moves in Clean Beauty

Gregg Renfrew is the founder of Beautycounter and now Counter—a pioneer in the clean beauty movement. Five years after our first exchange, Gregg returns with her story about navigating imposed change. After losing her company, she bought it back out of foreclosure in 48 hours—then let it die to save it. Today, we explore identity collapse, decoupling self-worth from success, why selling control means losing it, and the beauty industry's toxin loopholes. Along the way, we confront rebuilding when everything you've created is stripped away. This is an honest conversation about ego, humility, and the courage to begin again. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com Seed: Use code RICHROLL20 for 20% OFF your first order👉🏼https://www.seed.com/RichRoll20 Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼http://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll Whoop: The all-new WHOOP 5.0 is here! Get your first month FREE👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Momentous: High-caliber human performance products for sleep, focus, longevity, and more. For listeners of the show, Momentous is offering up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style👉🏼https://www.on.com/richroll LMNT: Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinklmnt.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Gregg Renfrew?

  How do you arm people with enough information that they can make an informed choice without fear mongering, without scaring them to death? And how do you show financial and business success and you catch the attention of those that are still using the old school practices and seeing, well, they're actually winning? What would, you know, some of these great leaders that have come before me, what would they have done if they had been afforded this opportunity? And can I look at this as a gift and can I give myself the space to really think? I think our health is worth fighting for. I think women are worth fighting for. And I always say, there's no better way to change the world than lighting a fire under the asses of a bunch of women who care. If I'm being completely honest, it's still hard that there are people that hate me or are angry with me about things that I didn't actually do, and I have to just live with that.

• 0:58Rich Roll?

  What's up, people of Podcastlandia? Good to be with you today. I've got a feeling that today's guest, my friend Greg Renfrew, back for round two, might have attracted at least a few people brand new to me. So if that's you, my name is Rich Roll. I'm an ultra endurance athlete, got a few books to my name. I'm also a husband and a father of four. And this show, which I started way back at the end of 2012, is basically in service to becoming our best selves. For the diehards out there, you might be looking for a little bit of a life update. On that note, the back is continuing to heal slowly. I've been able to ride the indoor bike. I've been able to get a little bit of swimming in. And it's been a busy few weeks.

• 1:42Rich Roll?

  I was in Florida, where I was able to get in the ocean, which was fantastic. And I was there to speak at this conference called Unimonia, which was my first time attending what is a fairly new wellness event, but appears to have quickly become like the event, a sort of Sundance meets South by Southwest meets Expo West for the health and longevity set. And that has left me reflecting on the state of the wellness industrial. Complex movement. And I think I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, it is kind of astonishing how much this movement has grown over the last decade. There were

• 2:21Rich Roll?

  literally thousands of attendees at this event, hundreds of vendors, dozens and dozens of speakers and presenters, just a ton of energy. And while all of this is great, people more invested than ever in upleveling their lives, it is also a bit bizarre and somewhat disorienting because when there's so much to take in, it can be paralyzing for the average person because it becomes more difficult to identify the signal amidst the noise. And so I guess it left me thinking about how I can be a better beacon going forward, a better signal or lighthouse to filter out the noise. And so, starting in

• 3:02Rich Roll?

  January, I'm going to start experimenting a bit with this show to better focus on serving the primary mission of this podcast, which is wisdom relevant to self-actualization. I've got a lot more I want to say about this in the new year, but I am pretty excited about it. And I'm confident that you're gonna dig it. And before we get into Greg, I did want to touch on last week's podcast with Todd Marinovich. Usually when I have addicts or former addicts on the show, they arrive with wisdom gleaned from long-term sobriety. But the one with Todd was different because this is a guy who's still very much in the struggle, so much so, in fact, that I suspect he might have even been somewhat

• 3:45Rich Roll?

  altered during the conversation. For those of you who checked it out, you probably noticed that I was leading him a lot, even having to tell parts of his story for him at times. I didn't want to do that, but I kind of felt it necessary because it was pretty clear he was struggling to articulate his thoughts. Look, not everybody is super verbal, so that's all fine. But I just think there was something more going on here because his demons were right there on the surface. And the pain he was feeling was pretty palpable, I think. But the thing is, And maybe this is for those who were a bit disappointed in the episode, or how I handled it. That is addiction. It's just fucking powerful when it's staring

• 4:29Rich Roll?

  you in the face like that, when the depths of despair it produces are just so undeniable. And I've learned that the only way to help somebody so deep in the grip is to just create a nonjudgmental space, to listen without giving advice, and to engage the best I can with compassion. And I hope that came across, and I hope that it provided you with perhaps some lessons for how to engage any loved ones you might have who happen to be in the throes.

• 5:01Rich Roll?

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• 5:42Rich Roll?

  own food coach to help you problem solve along the way. It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 6:06Rich Roll?

  All right, Greg Renfrew. I had her on five years ago to talk about her advocacy on behalf of toxin-free cosmetics, and also her entrepreneurial journey to building Beauty Counter, which at that time was well on its way to becoming a clean beauty empire, which is an industry that this woman helped define. But a lot has changed since then, and the story she has to tell today is Less about business and more about how to navigate change. Spoilers aside, it's a story about what to do when your identity collapses. And the journey she went on to decouple that identity from her self-worth to reimagine the company she lost and reinvent herself anew. So this one is about the tension between ego and humility.

• 6:51Rich Roll?

  It's about leadership under pressure. It's about fortitude, vision, resilience, and what it means to prioritize values over optics. Along the way, we take the temperature of the clean beauty movement and the work that remains to remove toxic chemicals from consumer products. Greg is a real one. She's one of the most tenacious people that I know. And this one is laced with wisdom you won't soon forget. So let's do the thing. This is me and Greg Redfru.

• 7:22Rich Roll?

  It's great to see you, Greg. And I have to say, right off the top, that you are a fucking baller. Because this story, what you've just endured, this journey that you've been on, is literally like a season of succession. I mean, it really is. Like, you're just, you're just playing ball on like, a professional level, business-wise. And I know you've really gone through it. And you're kind of emerging out the other side right now. So I want to hear all about it. Because last time we talked, it was, it was, I think it was late 2019 when we recorded. That episode came out in 2020. Things were quite a bit different at that time.

• 8:02Gregg Renfrew?

  They were?

• 8:03Rich Roll?

  So why don't we just pick up where we left off?

• 8:06Gregg Renfrew?

  Okay, how many hours do we have? Yeah, okay, so last time we spoke, so 2019, 2020, things in that era of Beauty Counter, which is my old company, were on the up and up. You know, it was an interesting period of time. And I think that having really pioneered Clean, we were, you know, sort of enjoying the fruits of our, of our labor. And I felt like we'd built this incredibly solid company and community and had grown it. And, but in 20, maybe 19, sometime around then, we had been approached by a strategic to purchase the company, one of the large conglomerates.

• 8:49Gregg Renfrew?

  And as I said, and I turned them down. And I literally turned them down. I mean, you got to like imagine all these conglomerates, everything's super buttoned up in their suits and their, you know, whatever. And I, I said, you know, you're kind of like the guy that I want to marry, but I'm a little bit young and you didn't propose that they're really good rock and I'm going to say no. And they literally looked at me like, you're kidding. I mean, I literally said that to them. So I bring this up only because it led my investors to wanting to sell the company. It whet their appetite, seeing that they were going to make a good amount of money off of Beauty Counter, which by the way, they had the right to. They'd invested a significant amount of capital over

• 9:27Gregg Renfrew?

  a number of years. And, and so we ended up going out in the winter of 2021, we made the decision to sell the business. And in the fall of 2020, I had read Bob Iger's book, The Ride of a Lifetime, and I had been inspired to continue my journey and was really hoping to sell the business to a financial sponsor that would afford me the opportunity to keep going, to be the next generation leader in beauty and to go public. And we ended up selling the business in May of 2021 successfully to a private equity firm at a really strong valuation, which was great. But immediately after I sold the business, the business kind of stumbled that summer because it was the summer that the world opened up post pandemic

• 10:12Gregg Renfrew?

  and people changed all of their patterns of behavior. And that didn't bode particularly well for me.

• 10:18Rich Roll?

  So at the time, at that moment, I think you guys were doing something in excess of like 400 million, right? In, in revenue. Carlyle comes in, cuts a billion dollar check essentially to take a majority stake in the company. But also, part of that was you're going to stay on as CEO. And this was the opportunity with this massive infusion of cash to expand and grow the business and position it ultimately for an IPO at some point.

• 10:50Gregg Renfrew?

  That was the plan.

• 10:51Rich Roll?

  Right. This is not what happened.

• 10:53Gregg Renfrew?

  No, it's not exactly what happened. No, it definitely is not what happened.

• 10:57Rich Roll?

  You know, walk me through what unfolded and what unraveled from there.

• 11:04Gregg Renfrew?

  So a billion dollar valuation for any company, certainly also in beauty, is a pretty significant valuation. And what comes with that is, I think, I mean, I think in retrospect, I think there was some nervousness at the top levels of the investment committee in terms of the valuation that we could commit, even though we had other people that were there. So they weren't the only ones. I think people think like they were the only ones. But I think that in retrospect, I probably should have seen some signs that they were a little bit uncomfortable. But anyway, we signed on May 20 of 2021, and I that day is important to me because it's my father's birthday. My dad died a really long time ago when I was in my 20s. And so I was kind of like this moment like, wow, we actually

• 11:47Gregg Renfrew?

  did this. I started a company. I sold it for a billion dollars and I'm and they believe so much in me and my business model, like they're going to let me continue to really grow this business. What happened was that post pandemic, for many people who had been kind of cooped up inside for the last year or two, they, they, you know, they redirected their spend away from skincare and cosmetics and into clothing and travel, you know, fashion, whatever, anything that wasn't what they had been spending on. You know this, everybody was doing this. We all kind of went a little crazy that summer. And because we had built beauty counter predominantly on a platform of sort of what I would call the OG creators,

• 12:28Gregg Renfrew?

  a bunch of women who were representing the brand and, you know, educating their clients and serving them with our products. Those women also went on vacation and they did it. And so what happened was the business slowed that summer. And they, in the fall, in October, I got a call in the way actually was driving to Parents Weekend for my daughter's high school Parents Weekend, and they said, we don't think you can manage the business anymore. And you know this, I mean, it's an obvious. Situation where if the business fumbles, of course, it's the CEO's fault. And I think at that time, they felt, as many investors did, that they that we'd enjoyed this COVID bump and that they had maybe bought something that wasn't as valuable.

• 13:07Rich Roll?

  But how could they overlook like the sort of key man dilemma that you presented? Because you're so, you know, embedded, you are not, you're not just the face of the business. It's like your relationship with your, I don't know what the term is that you use like for your sales force, like all of these partners, these women, is so integral and crucial to the health and wellbeing of the business that to remove you, you know, how could they have not foreseen that this was going to be problematic?

• 13:37Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, at the time that they decided to bring in a CEO, they did bring me into the process, even though I was incredibly upset. They thought that I could coexist with this new CEO and that I could be the head of the brand and the face of the community of women and really involved in products.

• 13:53Rich Roll?

  While letting this other guy kind of operate the business.

• 13:55Gregg Renfrew?

  And I think that they thought then this this sort of tried and true operator who came from old school beauty and had, you know, been at these large companies would be the answer to whatever streamline operations and or, you know, in, you know, increase margins or whatever it was that they were trying to achieve. What what actually happened, I mean, it's honestly, in some ways, less about Carlyle and more about the choice in the CEO that they brought in because they brought in someone for whom, you know, working with me was just not an option. And then the very first meeting I had with him. So he was hired, I guess, in late December, early January, he officially started on January 1st, February

• 14:36Gregg Renfrew?

  1st of 2022. And our literally our very first meeting, he canceled. And that was indicative after I'd kind of publicly said, I'm supporting this and I'm, you know, I got all these women looking to me. To your point, I was the face of the brand and the movement and I've I embraced it as best I could, you know, in a forward facing way. But he made it really clear that there wasn't room for both of us in the business. And he and if there's one thing I've learned through all this is arrogance has no place in the business world and to ignore the those who built the business and have the hard, you know, sort of own all the institutional knowledge and experience from that business. It's just a really bad decision and he just didn't want anything to do with it.

• 15:18Rich Roll?

  Well, a major blind spot also being just the fact that he was a dude and this is like such a women first, you know, organization like top to bottom, you know, seems like from the top down was a myopic decision to begin with. And then the fact that, you know, he couldn't make room to collaborate with you. I mean, it's doomed from the start.

• 15:38Gregg Renfrew?

  It was, you know, it's funny because when, when we met prior to his signing the contract, he said, I kind of look at this as like 70 30, you know, in certain areas, you know, I'll have 70% of the decision making and certain areas you will. And the things that I really cared about were the mission, because that's why I started Beauty Counter in the first place was to protect the health and safety of people by removing toxic chemicals from personal care and cosmetics, as well as just in general from the world as best I could. So I was supposed to own the mission and the brand and the community of women that we had served and that, of which there were about 60,000 of these women who were looking to me and also were building businesses with us, some large and some small. So I

• 16:18Gregg Renfrew?

  kind of felt at the beginning that I was going to have a lot more say. But what happened was he, he really felt like he had something in his mind. I don't really know what it was. And I didn't really fit into that equation. And, you know, I'm not exactly like a wallflower. So I, in fairness, I was kind of like, you know, from the beginning, like I'm not going to listen to you tell me what to do on all these things. And that didn't work very well.

• 16:45Rich Roll?

  It seems like there were two critical errors that this guy makes, and I don't know where they fall in the timeline. One of which is, you know, he cuts this big deal with Ulta, right? So it seemed like I infer from that, that he doesn't have that much reverence or respect for the community of women who were like doing all the sales for you. He just wanted to get it into stores. And obviously, it's a big win to get into a huge commercial, you know, kind of retail enterprise like that. But at the same time, to me, that kind of reveals like, oh, this is where he wants to take it more so than to nourish this community. Like the engine of the company was, were all these women, right? And then secondly, this rearrangement of the commission structure for all of these

• 17:29Rich Roll?

  women, which obviously, you know, was incredibly damaging and disrupting to the business.

• 17:36Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that the commission structure, when I sold the company, needed, was, was in need of some change. We needed to modify it because, you know, they're only, people don't realize this half the time, but they're only like a hundred pennies and a dollar. And so you can only move, you can move dollars and pennies around as much as you want, but at the end of the day, there are only a hundred left. And what was happening at the time was that there was a very small group of women who had built significant teams that were enjoying, you know, significant incomes from the business, some of whom were actively working the business, some of whom were no longer actively working the business. And then, and then you had a lot of women who were earning, who were sort of the, what I would call the dabblers, who were working an hour to four hours a week,

• 18:19Gregg Renfrew?

  enjoying it, being part of the community, weren't really in it for the money at all. And, but they were making less. And so what we, what we had all decided prior to selling the company is that we were going to take a look at, at the commissions to figure out, are there ways to maximize the commissions for increased productivity and retention and democratize the opportunity a little bit. So I did participate in conversations about that, and I did believe that there was a need for change. That said, I strongly encouraged them not to do it at the time, or to him not to do it at the time, and that I thought it needed modification. And that was something that, you know, he said, you know, well, I've run sales forces before. I like know how to do this. And I, and I put me out there to sort of be the one to tell them.

• 19:03Rich Roll?

  Specifically, you were like, let's, let's, if we're going to do this, we have to give them a year notice in advance before this, before this is going to take effect. And he ended up like just saying, no, we're going to basically do this right away.

• 19:14Gregg Renfrew?

  And they, he ended up retracting what they did, but it was too late. I think that what, what, you know, there's so many things that, there's so many learnings here. And I think that, to your point, you, and oftentimes in life, in business, like you do need to make adjustments and something, you know, you start something with the best intentions or on a spreadsheet, it looks a certain way, and then it plays out in real life differently. So I didn't disagree in any way with making adjustments to the compensation. We had done it before. We'd made a radical change to our compensation structure years earlier. But to your point, we gave everyone a year. We brought the leaders in. We let them co-create it with us. Not that they were excited about it, but we got their feedback. We then changed things a little bit, modified.

• 19:57Gregg Renfrew?

  Then we told them in small groups. Then we told them in larger groups. Then we gave them the time and we showed them a path to how to rebuild. Because you can adjust, but if you can show someone, like any, I mean, this happens in finance, financial institutions all the time. We all have shitty years or things change. But if you can show someone how to rebuild that, people can get their heads around it. But that didn't happen. And so I think it was very abrupt with a new CEO, with me being in a different role, and we lost their trust very quickly. On the Ulta side of things, I think that I also believed in the decision to go to Ulta, but I believed in it in a slightly different way. I thought if we could use some of the, a small portion of our products

• 20:41Gregg Renfrew?

  in a select group of stores to increase brand awareness, that it would actually be accretive to the businesses of those who sold. Because, you know, when someone else is validating it

• 20:50Rich Roll?

  That's interesting, yeah.

• 20:50Gregg Renfrew?

  and there's more exposure out there, that's actually helpful. And in past times, when we'd done shorter term partnerships with Sephora or Target or Goop or whatever, it actually helped the women that were selling. But to do a massive rollout with the entire line of products at the same price point with better shipping policies and things like that, that was not helpful.

• 21:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you just remove the value proposition altogether for, you know, these women trying to sell it to their friends, right?

• 21:16Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. And Ulta, they were great partners and they were the right choice of partners at the time. It just, again, I think it's, you can't take an old school playbook and apply it to an industry disruptor. And we went from being a purpose-driven business, built on community, predominantly on the power of women, with an emotional connection to not just the products, but what we were trying to do, whether it was changing laws or educating communities to a highly promotional, transactional corporate entity.

• 21:47Gregg Renfrew?

  It just doesn't work.

• 21:48Rich Roll?

  You know, this is the life cycle of so many companies. Like, obviously, you know, you found a company, you grow it. There has to be an exit strategy. You know, there needs to be a way for the investors to recoup. And whether it's, you know, a sale to a private equity firm or whatever shape or form or a conglomerate, like, it seems like more often than not, like, what you just said is what happens. You know, it's like, there's all these promises made or excitement about, like, all the growth and all the opportunity that this cash infusion is gonna allow, you know, everybody to grow the company. And yet, inevitably, it ends up, you know, diluting the brand and kind of accelerating its irrelevance,

• 22:32Rich Roll?

  you know, all the way until it's like, these companies sell, and then you never hear from them again, you know, or the product that ends up on the shelf, which is like, well, this isn't the same thing it was.

• 22:40Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah.

• 22:40Rich Roll?

  You know, this is just what happens, right? And in your case, you know, it was even worse. Like, it just culminated in a foreclosure because of the accumulation of all of these sort of not-so-great decisions stacking up on top of each other.

• 22:57Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, I think that, you know, in fairness to venture capitalists and private equity firms, I do think that they do go into it with a level of passion and excitement for the business and an intention of making it better. Like, I do think people don't enter into these relationships in general with malintent. I think one of the biggest problems, though, is that, well, Wall Street in general is arrogant. Let's just call spade a spade. And you and I both know a lot of people on Wall Street, and I love a lot of people on Wall Street. But there's a level of arrogance that comes with earning a lot of money. And it's, there's a disproportionate sort of compensation structure to those who work on Wall Street. So you have people that have actually never operated a business that are looking at a spreadsheet and thinking, if I just tweak this a little bit here,

• 23:42Gregg Renfrew?

  I can make it a little more profitable, make it a little bit more profitable, and we borrow a little money, we can sell for this, and we'll make this. And that's the, I remember saying this to Jay Samons, who is the, who was the lead from Carlyle, who I absolutely loved and still love. He's an amazing person. And I remember saying to him, Jay, there's the spreadsheet, and there's the real world. You need to start living in the real world. And he still laughs about it today because there was, a couple of weeks ago, there was a cargo incident in the Long Beach port, and someone dropped a bunch of cargo into the... Water and that water is my holiday packaging. So I was like, you literally can't make this stuff up. And that did not exist on today's spreadsheet or last year's spreadsheet. And I think that's one of the biggest rubs.

• 24:24Gregg Renfrew?

  And it's why you see so many companies either falter or become irrelevant is because there's a disconnect between the people that are investing, who haven't operated and the operators. And it's not that the operators don't make a ton of mistakes and don't have their own set of issues because we do. And as founders, we have plenty of issues and we make a lot of mistakes, but we do know how to operate the business. And things that seem very obvious at face value are often, there was complexity and context there that is often lost on others.

• 24:55Rich Roll?

  Right. Underappreciating the, the, the human factor and the unpredictable problems that inevitably arise with this arrogance of like, oh, that's, that's, that's so nice and cute. You've built it, you know, but you've built like a really cute thing. Like now we'll take it, well, the adults will take it from here. Like, you know, thank you very much. And here's your check and go on your merry way.

• 25:17Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. And that's, I mean, I do remember the CEO on a call in front of a whole bunch of people saying something like, I'm really proud of Greg because she's one of those founders that knows when to bring in the real business people or something like that. And I was like, dude, like seriously, I started a business and sold it for a billion dollars. I think I would consider myself a real business person today. And by the way, I've worked really, really hard to earn the title of CEO, not a founder CEO, like a real CEO. I worked my ass off to, to become a better CEO through executive coaching, through a lot of constructive criticism and really learning more about the financial areas of the business, which are not, do not come naturally to me.

• 25:57Gregg Renfrew?

  And so, you know, to make those types of patronizing comments, you know, I mean, yeah, there are founders that are idiots. Of course there are lots of people that are idiots, but, but in general, they're probably relatively intelligent and probably know what they're doing more than you think.

• 26:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So there's, there's a series of machinations and things go on. They bring you back for, to be, you know, CEO for a while and all kinds of, you know, stuff is happening, but eventually Carlisle, you know, essentially ends up like closing the whole thing down, right? And it goes into foreclosure. Uh, it's just, that's going to be the end of the story. And this is where, you know, you have this second act pivot with the whole thing. So explain.

• 26:41Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, it was actually, it was kind of an incredible thing. So

• 26:45Rich Roll?

  Basically $700 million of equity evaporated.

• 26:51Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah.

• 26:52Rich Roll?

  And is this Carlisle's like worst investment ever? Like they're just, they have, they've recouped nothing out of this.

• 26:57Gregg Renfrew?

  They recouped nothing out of it. It was hard. You know, I think that in fairness to Carlisle, they really did in earnest, try to find a home for the brand. And whether that was through some sort of financial sponsorship or through selling it to a strategic, but I think that the business was a little too broken and a little too late. And I think that he stayed on a little too long. And so when I came back in as CEO in February 24, they made the decision about six weeks later that they needed to shut the business down, that they couldn't fund it because it was no longer profitable. And I think honestly, they could see what I couldn't yet. See, I still too emotionally wrapped up in it. And I think they realized like, this isn't going to work. So we went into foreclosure because we were immediately in breach of our debt covenants. And I didn't even know what debt covenants really were. But you know, for someone's listening that doesn't know much about this

• 27:41Gregg Renfrew?

  because I didn't, it's, it's like, if you're not paying your mortgage, like the bank immediately assumes the property and that's what happened. And so it went into foreclosure, the banks owned the asset. We went back and forth for a couple of weeks trying to salvage things couldn't, we didn't have an actual viable deal at the table. And a pretty amazing thing happened. And there was a man in Boston who worked for Bank of America. They controlled the syndicated debt on the business. And he and I developed a relationship a little bit over the previous few weeks. And he called my lawyer and he said, Listen, we're going to lose our shirts. We're going to lose our money no matter what. But she's a pretty exceptional founder and what she did for the industry and the world is pretty, pretty amazing. And we want her to have her business back if she wants it. So if she wants to

• 28:26Gregg Renfrew?

  buy it from us, we'll sell it to her for, you know, a very small amount of money, which was actually kind of an extraordinary act. By a bank.

• 28:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's not a normal thing.

• 28:37Gregg Renfrew?

  No, and I really, I owe debt of gratitude to Bank of America and JP Morgan and others that that actually let go of their debt and let me have the opportunity. So they called me, I was on spring break. My daughter, Georgie, who you know, was, you know, and all my kids. I mean, it makes me emotional talking about it now, but they were really, really sad. They're like, you just can't let this die. She was holding our vitamin C serum, which has always been our top selling product. And she said, Mom, I just, you've worked so hard. We've sacrificed so much. Like, just don't let it die. And my son, a couple of weeks prior, had been trying to post about it on Instagram and sell perfumed his friends' moms. Like, they tried so hard to hold on to what we had. And so in that moment, when I had that opportunity, you know, I, it was like, it was like a Sunday night, I was in

• 29:18Gregg Renfrew?

  Miami on spring break, about to fly back to LA in the morning. And we kind of had a family conversation. And, you know, I turned to Mark, who, you know, was really pretty fiscally responsible and conservative. And I just said, you know, what do you want me, what should I do? And we made the crazy ass decision to buy the company out of foreclosure within 48 hours. And a bunch of my, we sold a bunch of our savings, and we coughed up a bunch of cash, a couple of my old investors wired in money with no paperwork and just said, All right, Greg, we're going to back you again. And, and we did it. And we bought it. Like, we were gonna, that was Sunday night, and Thursday morning, we were going to liquidate. So we had about two days to get it done. It's sort of surreal.

• 30:00Rich Roll?

  Like, that all happened in two days?

• 30:02Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. I mean, it was crazy.

• 30:04Rich Roll?

  So the choice, just for, you know, people who don't know, like, you made a pile of money. Like, you didn't have to do this. You could have sailed off and just, you know, either started a new company, or not done anything, essentially, for the rest of your life. Just enjoy your life. Instead, you decide that you're gonna go back in and try to, you know, untie this incredibly intricate knot and figure this whole thing out, which is just inviting, you know, all kinds of, you know, difficulty into your life unnecessarily.

• 30:38Gregg Renfrew?

  Yes. Yes. And it's been, it's been, it was hard, because first, I, you know, I bought it, then, you know, there were like, all these legal situations going on. And I had to make the, like, the hard, probably the hardest.

• 30:53Gregg Renfrew?

  Thing I've ever been through in my career was that, once I bought the business, I had to, I had to fire all of the people that worked for the company, minus a few, because there was no cash left. And while we had raised a little bit of capital, we had to, you know, we had to pay something for the business, and then we had to figure out how to operate something. And that, for which I received so much negative backlash, like, here's this person who says they empower women and care about people, and she's firing everyone without any severance. And, and I think one of the things that's been hardest, and I've become immune to the, to the, well, let's call it constructive feedback on me, is that, like, I can sleep at night knowing the truth, and what people often don't understand is, like, the complexity

• 31:38Gregg Renfrew?

  of what's happening behind the scenes in a business. And so, some of the choices that seem either ruthless, or tone deaf, or really harsher, they're not necessarily decisions, they're just, they just are what they are. And when you don't have any cash, you don't have any cash. So, I've invited that, and, and I took a lot of public, you know, a lot of scathing from people publicly, both the women that had represented the brand, as well as some of the corporate employees. That was really painful. I was getting really, really nasty messages, like, you know, "You're the most horrible person, I hope your, you know, kids must be horrified by who you are." And I just had to somehow, like, breathe through it, and just say, like, "I know my

• 32:20Gregg Renfrew?

  truth, and I know that I, I didn't do this to people, but I understand why they're angry, and I did understand why they were angry." But once I bought the business, I, I really, literally had a full-blown anxiety attack. I was petrified, and I was petrified probably because I realized I had to shut it down. I had to shut the whole thing down in order for it to live, to see another day, because it was, it was an untenable situation. We didn't have the capital to, to fund the business on a go-forward basis. I think I was naive in the moments that I purchased it, thinking that maybe I could. But the minute I looked at the dollars, I was like, there's literally, we would have had to go raise, like, a hundred million dollars, we just didn't have the money. I mean, we didn't have close to the money.

• 32:57Rich Roll?

  So, when you entered into this, you were thinking, "I'm gonna breathe life back into this, I'm gonna resuscitate..." We're going to get it, you know, one step at a time back on its feet. And then you realize the the complexity of the situation and and, you know, the endless, you know, series of nearly impossible problems to solve. Was there ever a moment where you thought like this was this was a terrible decision? I should have never gone back into this.

• 33:24Gregg Renfrew?

  A hundred percent. I mean, multiple times I felt that way. I thought that that so I remember, I mean, I remember that so distinctly. So I bought the business and I was sitting in my house office. And I remember Lindsay Dahl, who had who had been head of mission with Beauty Counter and is is still an ally and a close friend. She now runs Social Impacted at Ritual. But she came over and she's like, we're going to do this. And I just had a full blown sobbing, like hysterical meltdown like what? I was so scared because I just realized like the enormity of what I had taken on and the financial implications of the decision. And I thought, oh, my gosh, like, this is going to, you know, this is going to bankrupt my family. What have I done to my marriage? Like, am I crazy?

• 34:08Gregg Renfrew?

  And she just sort of like talked me off the ledge that day. And she was just like, we got to take this one step at a time. Greg, you got to think through this. And I think that it was that conversation that led me over the next couple of days to realizing that the best path forward was to let the business go, which was not an easy decision for all the obvious reasons.

• 34:26Gregg Renfrew?

  I had a bad breakup in in college. I was super in love with my boyfriend and it was like just heart wrenching. And I remember my friends are like, we've listened to you go on and on about this guy. Like, you got to go talk to a therapist like you can't like, we can't help you anymore. And I went to talk to this therapist and I was, you know, crying, whatever. I'm this is like, you know, nineteen eighty nine or something. And I was like, but I love him and whatever. And he said, I remember him saying, if you want any chance of that that relationship starting again, you need to let it completely die. He's like, don't talk to him, don't look with him, definitely don't have sex with him. Like, let it die. And if you let it die, there's a chance that it can be reborn. And I and I know it seems so silly, but in my mind, I was thinking about that. If I let this go and deal with all the consequences of that decision,

• 35:11Gregg Renfrew?

  we might just have a chance of letting it let it be born again and be born in a better way. And so that's what I did. I shut it down on May 1 of 2024.

• 35:20Rich Roll?

  I remember when you, I don't know if it was like an Instagram post or something like that where you were just like, it's shutting down. We'll let you know when it's coming back. Like, we're not, you know, we're not, basically, we're not making any promises, you know, which is just like such a, you know, what a, what a difficult decision to make and then to kind of own it and then publicly share it. Like, this is where we're at, you know, is, is a heavy deal. And I remember thinking, how do you get through the day? Like, how do you, whether it's what was happening with Carlyle, or then this new situation that you find yourself in? Like, how are you managing the stress and the pressure of shouldering like that much responsibility?

• 36:01Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, first of all, I'm an absolutely no bullshit, transparent person. And I, and even, even now, like even talking about, even on a podcast, even publicly, I'm okay with like, being emotional and admitting like, it was super hard and super emotional and scary, all those things. Like, I think that, but when you, when you, when you put that out to the world, the world kind of finds you and people surround themselves and help you. And I had so many people that just said, like, we're gonna get through this, whether it was Lindsay, or Justin Stoltz, who'd been my partner for years, or, you know, Chrissy Coleman, or like, all these people that have been with me, you know, there were people, and obviously Mark, my husband, they're like, we've got this, you've got this, Greg, like, you can do this. And I think that, what I did give myself permission

• 36:45Gregg Renfrew?

  to do, because I did keep like, a small crew of people, and I remember them being kind of like, as they should be, like, I'm the CEO, what's the plan? And I finally had to say, like, I don't know, I don't have a plan right now. So I'm gonna take the next three months of summer, I'm gonna keep a small group of you, I'm gonna pay you, I can't promise you much beyond that, but I can pay you, I can pay you for the next couple of months. If you want to stick with me, I'd love it. If you don't, I totally understand, I'll help you find another job. But I need to take a moment to breathe and to figure out what the hell I'm gonna do. Because I didn't, I didn't go into this with the intention of buying it and shutting it down. And I literally had no idea what I was doing. And so, last summer, the summer of 2024, or a year ago, I, I just spent a lot of time

• 37:29Gregg Renfrew?

  reading and thinking and having conversations with people and Trying to figure out, okay, where is the white space? How do we lead again? How do we go on and go back in on offense? And I was like, what would Steve Jobs do in this moment? What would, you know, some of these great leaders that have, you know, come before me? What would they have done if they had been afforded this opportunity? And can I look at this as a gift? And can I give myself the space to really think? And I just tried to take it like one day at a time. And like you, Rich, I also became very disciplined in my body. Like my health, like I was like very focused on what I was eating, what I was drinking, my exercise, like trying to like meditate whenever I could, taking long baths, going for long walks, like listening to music, like just giving myself space.

• 38:18Rich Roll?

  Amidst all of this, where is your sense of self or your relationship or your attachment to your identity as, you know, a CEO and a successful business person? Like is, because this is being challenged publicly along the way, right? And I suspect that, you know, the ego was not very happy with that.

• 38:38Gregg Renfrew?

  So I think when I was asked to leave Beauty Counter under this previous CEO's leadership, I think that was the time that I went to a really dark place where I, I remember walking into rooms, there's a group of about 50 women that I go away with every year, really accomplished group of women of all different backgrounds and professions. And I remember going to Utah in the spring of 2022 and, or maybe the spring of 23, and I, I felt like I no longer belong. I remember someone giving me a hug and she kind of looked over my shoulder at the time and it like killed my entire weekend because I was like, I'm not meant to be here anymore.

• 39:20Rich Roll?

  Because you're here, but you know, nobody's saying anything, but you know, you're on the outside.

• 39:24Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, I'm on the outside in my head. In their head, they were rallying around me like, you're, like, you're still the woman that started Clean Beauty and led this business and sold it for a billion dollars and economically empowered hundreds of thousands of women. They are looking at me, but in my, my own mind, I'm like, who am I without Beauty Counter? Who am I as not as a CEO or this? Well-respected entrepreneur and I had a lot of, I spent a lot of time like doing energy work, healing work, talking to psychics and mediums, going to therapy, like reading books and I remember reading, is it David Brooks, David Brooks is the second, second act or whatever and I really respect him, but I was like, well shit, I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet. Like, why are you telling me that to kind of be put out

• 40:05Gregg Renfrew?

  to pasture and I can help others, but I can't do something now and past my prime. And so, I don't know, I did a lot of that, a lot of soul searching, you know.

• 40:13Rich Roll?

  Was there any one book or insight that was helpful?

• 40:17Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, in some ways, his book was helpful to me because I kind of rebelled against it. And I think that, I think that, yeah, it did. It's sort of like lit a fire under my ass. But I also just found that I'm not good at sitting around. I remember my, I remember my kids coming home and they're like, are you like in your, first of all, you don't even wear sweatpants. You're in sweatpants like on the sofa watching Netflix at four o'clock. Like, what? Mom, like, what are you doing? And so I, what I started to think about is, okay, what do I care about in life? And what I care about is women and helping them, powering them up, not in any way to the detriment of men, but, and I really do care about, about health and life and love and like being, being with people and helping them live better lives. And so I started trying to focus on like, okay, well, how do I take the things I care about and the experience I have and I, how do I start

• 41:01Gregg Renfrew?

  thinking about what I might be able to do that has impact in the world? And that, even though I didn't have a perfect plan, it like, it got my brain thinking again. And I started to ideate again in those dark moments. But I had some dark moments and honestly, it probably wasn't until the summer of 23, when Mark said to me, like, you, you have to stop. Like, you have to let go of your anger, Greg. Like, this is not, it is neither becoming, like, it's just, it doesn't make you look good, but also like, you're, you're sending us all over the edge. Like, you gotta let this all go. Like, you gotta make a decision now. Are you gonna be angry for the rest of your life? Or are you gonna let it go and move on? And I, at that point, I did decide to let it go. And now I'm actually like, I

• 41:44Gregg Renfrew?

  have no anger. It's crazy when you, and you know this and we all know this, but when you actually decide to let something go and actually let it go, you can forgive everything and everyone and, and take responsibility for your own actions and feel fine. It just took a long time.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  And what was the moment of clarity when you realized that the solution to this to this problem lied in, you know, kind of launching something new rather than just trying to resuscitate the brand that you had built?

• 42:15Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, again, I definitely read a lot about what Steve Jobs did, you know, I had read his books, I'd, you know, I'd gone back and like reread Shoe Dog and, you know, looked at what would Yvon Chouinard be doing right now, what would Bob Iger be doing right now, what, you know, other, other leaders that had led before, talked to a lot of powerful women in my life that had done things. And I, I don't think there was like one exact moment or whatever, but I think that I, I realized that the world had changed dramatically since I concepted Beauty Counter in late 2010, 2011, and I was here to serve the needs of today's consumer. So that led me sort of in, in a direction of thinking like, it has to be, like, coming out as like, like limping out as Beauty Counter 2.0 wasn't going

• 43:00Gregg Renfrew?

  to be good enough, like, how do, you know, what would a leader do? A leader would reimagine things for today and take the best of what was and build on that, but also be unapologetic about the fact that things need to feel different and look different. And I wanted to give the brand, I wanted the company to be a new company reimagined, based on some of the core tenets of the past. And so I just, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what that would be, what was going to be the same and what was going to be different. And knowing honestly that through all of this, I'm different. So therefore the business will be different and has to be different. And I think that was really important for me to recognize in myself and then know that through all of these conversations and readings that,

• 43:43Gregg Renfrew?

  in order to be successful, you have to go on offense and you go on offense, not limping out of the gate, if that makes sense.

• 43:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get it. Part of that is drop the beauty, just counter.

• 43:59Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, that was important to me. I mean, you know, I never really truly loved the name Beauty Counter. You know, one of the reasons that I named, well, Beauty Counter was the intended double entendre of going counter to the industry. It was also just a name we could get. I mean, you like can get sometimes like everything's owned by someone. But it was really about reimagining what beauty meant and the experience of beauty. But it was also an incredibly limiting name because it was, first of all, you put the name beauty in front of men and more times than not you blossom.

• 44:32Rich Roll?

  You're never going to sell anything to men.

• 44:33Gregg Renfrew?

  No. And second of all, the counter was the essence of what we were doing and who we are.

• 44:38Rich Roll?

  When you say beauty counter, you just think of a countertop. Like you're not getting that double entendre, that you're trying to counter something generally.

• 44:46Gregg Renfrew?

  And that, for me, it's always been about going against the grain. Like, it's kind of who I am, you know? People really love me or they don't. Like, there are a lot of people love me, there are a lot of people that don't because I am extremely direct, I'm in your face. And so for me, the first time I started the company, it was going counter to the industry norms of putting toxic chemicals into products and kind of hiding under a bunch of beauty secrets, which still happens, and lying to the consumer about whether or not this was natural or aloe-based or whatever bullshit was out there. And I wanted to go up against the industry and prove that there was a better way forward. And I wanted to change the laws so that we were, you know, protecting the health and safety of people. This time around, I was like, okay, we did a good job and a lot of people joined us and followed our lead and copied us and whatever.

• 45:31Gregg Renfrew?

  And now the word clean out there means absolutely nothing to the consumer once again because we've watered it down. So to me, to go counter to it meant that I, not only did I have to reimagine the business model, but also we needed to go counter to like what all the large box retailers have done, which is creating all a bunch of different standards of clean. And I feel like now I have an opportunity to set a new standard, to say, this is actually what clean means. And it's not just taking five ingredients out and calling it a day. Like, that's not actually a clean product.

• 46:00Rich Roll?

  Greenwashing has become cleanwashing.

• 46:03Gregg Renfrew?

  Hundred percent.

• 46:04Rich Roll?

  In the consumer product space, basically, is what you're saying.

• 46:07Gregg Renfrew?

  Hundred percent. And at the end of the day, clean is still worth fighting for. And you asked me earlier, like, why? Why would you do it? Because I want people to live healthy lives. And I know for a fact that there are certain chemicals that wreak havoc on our endocrine systems or, you know, create neurotoxicity or reproductive toxicity. And look, I think, I don't have the exact statistic, but it's like 40% of male sperm is now defective. I mean, this is a, this is a no bullshit problem. And so, and yet the industry, and it's less now about the big conglomerates and the brands, it's more about the retailers. They're, they're creating their own standards in a very self-serving way because they're capitalists. And I get that.

• 46:45Rich Roll?

  Oh, I didn't know that. So, so the retailers are putting their own veneer of like, quote unquote, clean on top of whatever these products are.

• 46:53Gregg Renfrew?

  And it's completely inconsistent. So what you see at, let's just say, a department store versus Target versus Walmart versus Sephora versus Ulta versus you name the brand, Credo, whatever it is, all these retailers are defining clean in a completely different way. And so as a consumer,

• 47:11Gregg Renfrew?

  what does that mean for me? And what, and again, because of lack of regulation on the federal side, you can still clean clean. And it doesn't have to be clean, you know?

• 47:21Rich Roll?

  So, last time you were here, way back when, I mean, most of what we talked about was this. You know, what do we need to understand in terms of the toxicity of beauty products, consumer products even more broadly? What is the current state of, of the regulatory and legislative landscape with respect to protecting consumers from these things? You're, and we talked a lot about, you know, I mean, how many times have you gone to the Hill and testified, like, this is like your thing, right? This is the, this is the, you know, engine behind, or was the engine behind beauty counter and still remains to be, you know, your kind of like defining mission in regard to all of this. And now with counter, that obviously remains consistent.

• 48:06Rich Roll?

  But I'm curious around what the, what that like legislative regulatory landscape looks like now compared to then.

• 48:14Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, I mean, the difference between 2019 and 2025 is significant. I think that, so when we were able to help pass MoCo, which is the modernization of the cosmetics regulation act, which went through a couple of years ago, and that was the first time a major federal law had been updated since 1938, and I'm proud that we helped in the passing of that, and it allowed for things like the FDA could recall product when it was known to cause harm to health. Fast forward to where we are today, you still have bipartisan support for cosmetic reform. And when I say cosmetic, and I've said this to you before, it could be sunscreen, bubble bath, shave cream, or lipstick, it's all of the above.

• 48:58Gregg Renfrew?

  What is challenging today, right now, as you can imagine, is that everything's, you know, we're always at the standstill because people can't get along on any issue. This is an issue that I was really proud of the fact that when I ran Beauty Counter, we had people on the far right and the far left and everything in between, and they could agree that this was an important issue and that we needed to take action. Today, when I look at like opportunities for advocacy within the political arena, so to speak, you're looking at things like the fragrance loophole, which is still protected under international IP law. That's a big problem because so many of the most offensive chemicals are found in fragrance because it's those phthalates that so closely mimic your endocrine system that they, but

• 49:43Gregg Renfrew?

  they're the ones that bind that scent to your skin, and we know that fragrance is having a huge moment right now. So there are opportunities in small ways to go after specific things that I think would help protect the health and safety of people. There are members of Congress that are still trying to put forth bills on, you know, toxic free cosmetics, and we will continue to support that. But at this particular moment in time, when I think about our advocacy efforts at Counter, I don't want to just focus on Washington and/or the state, you know, level. I also want to look at business and commerce and the business world and go after it from that standpoint, too, in that how do we create a standard for clean that everyone can understand and live by so that brands know what they're performing against and consumers know.

• 50:28Gregg Renfrew?

  And that will come down to creating a coalition, and not just with us, but getting a group of important companies together to say, let's set a standard that we can all agree protects the health and safety of people, that when they're out there shopping, the market, they can navigate it. I think there's an interesting opportunity. To advocate on the business side of things, not just on the legislative side of things.

• 50:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it seems like, well, first of all, it is an interesting moment right now. Certainly, you know, toxicity in, you know, our food and in our water. And there's never been more awareness and care, I think, from the average consumer about these things. Like, there is a level of consciousness around this that didn't exist, you know, five years ago. And I would have to say that in no small part, like, the whole Maha movement has contributed to that, because this is kind of what it's all about, right? Unfortunately, it's paired with and coupled with an administration that is really just about deregulation. So these things are working at cross purposes with each other. You can't

• 51:32Rich Roll?

  say, "We're going to get toxins out of our food and all these things," while you're basically, you know, doing everything you can to make sure that large corporations can operate unencumbered. Like, they're not compatible. So the solution, then, to your point, is, well, we need, you know, consumer pressure, and we need coalitional support within the industry to set these standards for ourselves. But this is also happening at a moment where there hasn't been, there's never been this much institutional distrust. And I think there is consumer fatigue when it comes to these certifications and labels. Like, what do these things even mean anymore? It's like, "Oh, this is free range," or whatever. You know, it's like, "But again," it's like, "These things don't mean anything anymore. They

• 52:16Rich Roll?

  all get sort of corrupted." And I think the average consumer experience is like, "Do I even really, what does this mean? Can I really trust this?"

• 52:25Gregg Renfrew?

  Or they just give up. I mean, I even, in my own life, on certain things, I was like, things that I was so, like, hyper about before, I'm kind of like, "Ah," like, you know, it can be frustrating. It's like... I was talking about this about recycling and then you look at like what percentage of things that you've recycled.

• 52:41Rich Roll?

  Actually, get in. Is this really doing anything?

• 52:43Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. It can be really frustrating. Yeah, I think that I do think that in one of the opportunities I saw in the old company that I see encounter today is, is that if you can demonstrate that you can build a financially viable and successful corporate entity that is also doing good work in the world, you can, you can actually garner the respect and get the attention of some of these other companies.

• 53:08Rich Roll?

  Well, puts market pressure on all these other companies.

• 53:09Gregg Renfrew?

  And I think that some of these other companies, you know, there are, there are, I think one of the problems, the challenges that we face as a nation in general, and certainly with respect to this issue about whether it's on the food side of things or personal care side of things, whatever it might be, is there's still a significant level of ignorance, and I don't mean that in a disrespectful way, but people still don't really understand what's going on out there. And so how do you arm people with enough information that they can make an informed choice without fear mongering, without scaring them to death? And how do you show like financial and business success in a way that people, that you catch the attention of those that are still using the old school practices and seeing, well, they're actually winning, the consumers voting with their dollars, and they're actually

• 53:53Gregg Renfrew?

  growing at a faster clip than we are, maybe we should actually make some adjustments. And rather than shaming the companies that aren't doing the right thing, just show them a better path forward. And I found, I have found in my own experience over the last 15 years that most people and most companies, because companies are built on people, want to do the right thing. But with the pressures of the markets, it's hard to do the right thing because when you lose points of margin, margin in your stock price tanks, it's hard. And so it's, it's a really, it's a conundrum. I mean, it really is a challenging situation, but I do think that public advocacy, we are consumers, consumers have a voice, and they need to use that voice. And they have to remember that when they vote in an election, yeah, that's one way of voting, but you vote with your wallet every single time you've purchased something

• 54:38Gregg Renfrew?

  in your life.

• 54:39Rich Roll?

  On the subject of consumer, the consumer lack of awareness or ignorance about these things, what is it that you want, you know, the consumer to know?

• 54:51Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, I think with respect to my industry, the beauty and personal care industry, I want people to know that the beauty secrets are bullshit. I mean, it's all bullshit. I mean, just think about this. I mean, you and I are both, you know, getting older, right? I have wrinkles on my face, right? I just do. Wrinkles aren't a problem, they're just a thing that the beauty industry is telling you is a problem so they can sell you product. I mean, let's just start there. I mean, really.

• 55:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:16Gregg Renfrew?

  There's like a wrinkle is just part of the aging process and every single person in the world will get a wrinkle at some point and it is not a process, it is just part of life. The entire industry of like building things like, oh, if you, you know, use this, you're gonna have the fountain of youth, it's, I mean, it's all bullshit. So I think that, you know, one, I want people to understand that like there's no cream that's gonna get rid of your wrinkles. It might improve the moisture in your skin, it might, you might feel a little bit more radiant, that, that stuff is true, but nothing's gonna change things, that's one thing. Two, that don't be, don't believe what you see on a label. Like, you've gotta do your research. You may not choose to wanna do the work and that's fair, but if someone says it's all

• 55:57Gregg Renfrew?

  natural or clean or aloe-based or, you know, it's got made with pomegranate seed or whatever, like.

• 56:04Rich Roll?

  There's always, it's just insane how creative these things get, like, oh, infused with this and like specialties, like they, there's all kinds of crazy descriptors, you know, to make you think that there's some scientific breakthrough happening.

• 56:16Gregg Renfrew?

  Of course not, of course, and they'll say things like preservative-free, okay? Well, that's, there's no way that if you buy a product and it's sitting on the shelf for a year or two without having to be refrigerated and doesn't expire in a couple of weeks, like, that's not preservative-free. That means that that person went in and pre-preserved the raw materials, extracted them, and because of, because of sort of loopholes, like, they can claim that to be preservative-free.

• 56:42Rich Roll?

  Oh, because they didn't, they, they weren't like the

• 56:43Gregg Renfrew?

  They didn't add the preservative.

• 56:45Rich Roll?

  Actively preserved, it was preserved before they put it in the bottle or whatever.

• 56:48Gregg Renfrew?

  Correct. It's that kind of thing that people just don't realize, and it's the same with, with, you know, with the food industry, and I always say that the beauty industry drafts off the food industry, so what is happening there, we're gonna get next. And so I always just say to people, if there's like one thing you can do, shop fragrance-free, because at least you know you're removing a lot of the chemicals of concern that don't have to be listed, no matter which brand it is. We will, we always list the ingredients, but people don't list it, but just, just know that You know, what you see on the label isn't necessarily what you get. And that's okay if you're, if you're not trying to buy cleaner natural product. But if you are, you need to do your homework.

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  And what are the common chemicals of concern? And why are they concerning?

• 57:30Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, I think there are a whole bunch, but a couple that you will see often on labels are some of the parabens, the methyl or ethyl parabens. You'll see things like EDTA, the pegs. Obviously formaldehyde, but it never shows up as formaldehyde on the label, but those things and they're, they are, you know, I talked earlier about phthalates. And I think that anything that mimics your endocrine system and disrupts it can be really harmful in terms of your reproductive health or, you know, your neurological health. So I think that what I always say to people is like, look, I'm never, I'm not a scientist and I don't have all the answers or understand half of these chemicals, most of these chemicals.

• 58:11Gregg Renfrew?

  But what you should know first and foremost is that many, many tens of thousands of chemicals have been introduced into commerce in everything from electronics to food to beauty. And less than 10% of them have ever been tested for safety on human health. And so you're dealing with the wild, wild west. And so when you're making decisions about things you're putting in your body and on your body, just err on the side of being cautious. Like you'll put a seatbelt on when you get in the car, but you'll just put anything, any lotion or potion all over your body and your skin's your largest organ. So if you're thinking about, you know, your longevity and your long-term health, know that while it may not react in that moment, you might not see a huge rash breakout, it may have a long-term impact. And we may not know that, and maybe that one ingredient's okay in isolation, but how

• 58:56Gregg Renfrew?

  many products are you putting on your body every day when you brush your teeth and you shave and you put deodorant on and sunscreen and makeup? And how do those chemicals interact with one another with your body?

• 59:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there's a, there's an interesting irony in that, in that amidst all of this institutional distrust that's occurring right now, we have almost a reflexive unconscious trust when it comes to all of these products, assuming that

• 59:23Rich Roll?

  Smart people at the company have tested all of these things and that the FDA is overseeing all of this and it wouldn't be on the shelf and available to buy unless it has been vetted and tested and approved for human health and safety.

• 59:37Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, that's, it actually surprises me, even with my own friends, when, I mean, sometimes they'll, they'll say something, they're like, "This is clean." I'm like, "Have you been listening to me for the last 10 years? Like, are you kidding me? This is not clean. This is not even remotely clean." But somehow you think it is because it has like a leaf on the packaging or something and you think it's like this thing. I think that...

• 59:57Rich Roll?

  But the burden of proof, like the presumption is upside down, right? It has to be proven harmful. It's assumed, it's assumed safe until proven harmful, rather than having to be proven safe prior to being able to be available as a commercial product.

• 1:00:12Gregg Renfrew?

  That's, that is true. And I think that with Counter, one of the reasons that we made the decision to go back into a business model that incorporated community-based commerce and created a platform upon which women can, you know, represent the brand as brand partners and sell products should they so desire, one of the reasons I did that is because I think we believe friends. We listen to our trusted friends and I think that if you arm, an army of women with information, small bouts of information, they don't need to have their doctorate and, you know, whatever, but just if you know a little bit and you can help people make more informed choices, we tend to trust one another. And all these, like all these influencers are going against clean and science, whatever, you know, there just

• 1:00:54Gregg Renfrew?

  are some things, like, you know, if you're, if you're putting formaldehyde in your body and that's what's been used to preserve frogs, like, maybe it's just probably not all that good for your body. And just to, and so to be a little bit mindful, and I, and I think that we really believe in having women share our story, share this story, share information to help their friends, their communities, their families make better choices. And I believe in that today as much as I did when I started Beauty Counter, is in the power of, you know, we say there's no better way to change the world than lighting a fire under the asses of a bunch of women who care. And women care about protecting... Their bodies, but more importantly, they care about protecting their children, their families and their loved ones.

• 1:01:30Rich Roll?

  Herein lies the rub for you, though, as a leader. Because in the re-imagination of this beauty brand and the launch of Counter, you're faced with the prospect of having to rebuild trust that has been eroded with these women that you need. You need to be on your side. So how are you approaching that so that you can repair that relationship and restore that trust?

• 1:02:01Gregg Renfrew?

  Slowly. I'm taking my time with it. I think that you can't... I think a couple of things. One, in moments like this, I'm trying to be... I'm trying to find opportunities where I can share my story honestly, because, you know, one of the things that the women who sold Beauty Counter knew about me is I would say, "You might like what I'm going to say, you might hate what I'm going to say. You might like me, you might hate me, but you know that I'm like a no bullshit person. I'm always going to tell you the truth, even when it's unpopular." And so I've been spending time telling my story carefully, thoughtfully, understanding that it does take time to rebuild someone's trust. Some people came right back because they understood. Others have been slower to it. Some don't trust me, maybe never will,

• 1:02:45Gregg Renfrew?

  because they don't understand what actually went down, and I can accept that. That's just part of life, and I'm not going to sit and tell things that I'm not allowed to talk about or that are not helpful to anyone. But I think it's also like, actions speak louder than words. And so it's like, I'm here. I showed up again. I showed up again as CEO, having been fired from my job, to support the mission, to support the women, to help them continue to build businesses. I shut that business down not lightly. It was a really, really difficult decision, but I brought it back because I am here in support of people and women predominantly, and I am in support of our mission. I still think it's worth fighting for. So, you know,

• 1:03:28Gregg Renfrew?

  look, it's a slow build, but I do think slowly by slowly, as I talk to people and they realize I'm actually walking the walk again, that they are coming back. You know, we've had about 15,000 women join us again who do believe that there is not only an opportunity to build a business, but most importantly, that we're going to walk the walk again, and we're going to continue to further the efforts of the past.

• 1:03:49Rich Roll?

  And what are the similarities and differences in Counter's business model vis a vis how you're working with these women? Is it the same?

• 1:03:59Gregg Renfrew?

  No.

• 1:04:00Rich Roll?

  Principle? Or is it?

• 1:04:02Gregg Renfrew?

  It's different in that we are not, we're not, we're not building teams anymore. So you are working as an individual within the community, but you're not, you're not able to build a team because we've found that that's where some of the mistakes were made, where you had a few people who were earning a lot of money.

• 1:04:19Rich Roll?

  The MLM thing, like then they're, they're, they're making all this commission money based upon the people that they recruited.

• 1:04:26Gregg Renfrew?

  Right. Which by the way is how the entire corporate world works. And I do think that MLMs get a really bad rap unnecessarily. Part of the problem with the MLM business, and there are some really bad offenders out there right now, who shall remain nameless, although I should name them, but they, they overpromise and underdeliver. They, they say to you, oh, Rich, if you give me a thousand dollars, I'm going to show you how to make 10. And that's what, that's what went wrong with that industry. But the reality situation is it's mostly a group of pretty amazing young, not young women, all women, who, who are, they believe in the product and they're trying to earn an income. And we, and we look down on them for building teams and yet that's exactly how the corporate structure works, right? The CEO is making more than the person who's in an entry level position. The CEO is working 24 by 7.

• 1:05:07Gregg Renfrew?

  The entry level position in a, in a MLM business is probably, they're probably working one to three hours a week and it's a fun sort of side project for them. And I think that it's okay to be paid on other people's sales, in my opinion. Like, I don't have any issue with that. What, what I, what I found challenging though, at the end, when I came back in as CEO, is what I saw were that people worked really hard for a while and then there were a group of people, not all of them, but a group of people that were no longer working the business, but were enjoying the fruits of everyone else's labor. And that's not how the corporate world works. You know this. Like, you're paid, your bonus is paid on what you did this year, not what you did six years ago. And if you're not performing, you get fired. And unfortunately, I wanted a situation, we were paying so much money out to people

• 1:05:52Gregg Renfrew?

  that were no longer actively doing the business, and I wanted to democratize, to put more money into the hands of the person that was doing a little bit of selling, rather than a lot of money into a few people's hands.

• 1:06:02Rich Roll?

  What, what else is different? I mean, technology has changed quite a bit.

• 1:06:05Gregg Renfrew?

  So, one of the main things though, that is different, and we're rolling this out because when we launched, it was sort of a soft launch and I've been calling this a season of learning, but.

• 1:06:14Rich Roll?

  When did you officially?

• 1:06:15Gregg Renfrew?

  We officially, well, we turned it on on June 25th and we kind of made an announcement on October 20th that we're here. And I've said to everyone, this is a season of learning, so let's learn and we're going to iterate and iterate and iterate because we don't have it perfectly right yet. But one of the opportunities we see that I think is a huge unlock for us, that will be really powerful for these women that do represent the brand is there are a million affiliate models out there. Everyone can represent any brand and get paid on it. What people valued in Beauty Counter and what they value in what we're doing today is the power of community, of being an individual that's doing something extraordinary through the collective voice. And I think that, so we want to build that community again because it meant a lot to people.

• 1:06:57Gregg Renfrew?

  It was, most people that were part of the old company, they weren't really in it for the money. They were in it for the mission, the advocacy, they were lonely, sometimes they were stay at home moms that were looking for something for themselves. So I want to build that community out in a really robust way. I also think there's an opportunity to personalize the way that they're remunerated, that not everyone joins a business for the same reason and not everyone stays in the business. And the whole world of sales, quote unquote, is always about what you sell and a percentage of that sales goes to you in the form of dollars. And that's one way of compensating someone, but there are a lot of other reasons, reasons why people get into businesses. And certainly with our business, maybe they just wanted to advocate in Washington, maybe they wanted to go on a trip because they never get away from their children.

• 1:07:39Gregg Renfrew?

  Maybe they want to live a healthier life and we can help them with that. There are lots of reasons and we did extensive research to see why, why did you join Beauty Counter and what might be interesting about Counter? And it's not about the money most of the time. It's mostly about being part of something that you think is important, that adds value in your life and the life of others. So how do we personalize that journey for you based on what you want? Not just about money.

• 1:08:07Rich Roll?

  What is core to you in this is how is this serving to empower women? And obviously, by dint of this structure, it allows you to do that. Whereas, you know, most people don't go this route. They're just like, well, we can be a D to C company, but we're going to do our best to get into Ulta and Sephora and all these places and just be everywhere and be a ubiquitous product. This is a very specific choice to do things differently.

• 1:08:36Gregg Renfrew?

  I just think that brands and community are one and the same. I don't think you can build a brand today without a community. And I think when you're in someone else's store, you don't have control of that customer experience. You're not really learning what they love and what they don't love. When you have a community that's building a business with you, you have a direct line to not only them, but to your consumer. You understand what they want, what they love about what you're doing, what they don't love. Like, I can take products and push them out and say, what are you guys feeling about this? And I can tell you before I've even launched which ones are going to sell and which ones won't be as successful. I can utilize that community and the power of their ability to amplify our efforts in ways that I can't when I'm sitting in a big box retailer. I can have a direct dialogue with my customers in ways that I think...

• 1:09:19Gregg Renfrew?

  And yes, you can go D to C and you can build a transactional relationships. But at the end of the day, beauty and women, there's a lot of emotion in this. Like, why do you buy a Nike shoe versus an Adidas? Like, what does it mean for you and your personal brand? Does it align with your values? And I think being able to have a direct relationship through community and while powering up women simultaneously, like, that's what gets me excited. And I haven't figured it all out yet. Rich, when we have our next conversation in five years, I'll tell you what I figured out. But I do know that people want a personalized experience, both as customers and as sellers. People do want to emotionally connect to the brands that they support. And everyone wants to be part of something that's bigger than they are as individuals. And I think we can give them that through Counter by going against what's the status quo and giving them opportunities to succeed in their own way.

• 1:10:08Rich Roll?

  In business, what are some of the other leadership and business lessons that you've learned by going through all of this?

• 1:10:17Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, I've learned so many things. I think that I think that I have learned to become less emotional, which is not easy because I'm a very passionate person. And what I mean by that is I don't, I don't think I handle myself particularly well at the end either. When, when, after we sold the company and they decided to bring in a new CEO and all those things, like I don't, I'm not really proud of how I handle myself. And I, and I've watched other founders and friends go through it where they're extremely angry and emotional. I don't think it serves you or the business well. So I think I now lead from a less, a little bit more of an emotionally detached state. I don't know if that's the right wording, and I don't mean that in, but I just, I'm not.

• 1:11:01Rich Roll?

  Depersonalized.

• 1:11:02Gregg Renfrew?

  I've depersonalized it a little bit and realized that there is, that these are just the facts. Like, I can put all the color behind what went around. I could just say, they bought my business for a billion dollars. They made the decision to hire a different CEO. That CEO didn't want to work with me and I lost my job. And unfortunately, the business went out of business. Like, those are the facts. I can give you all the color around it, but those are my emotions and those don't necessarily change the facts. And so I'm trying to lead from a place of being calmer, more rational and a little distance from decisions. It actually makes me a better CEO when I'm not so caught up in it emotionally. So I think that's really important. I also think that being really open and honest, vulnerable and transparent, and people talk about this a lot, but I don't think there are a lot of women that actually are comfortable

• 1:11:46Gregg Renfrew?

  doing that. And I think that I, I need to acknowledge that I owe a debt of gratitude to everyone that's with me right now. And so owning that and showing them when I'm scared and showing them that I appreciate them. And when I say them, I mean, whether it's a manufacturing partner, whether it's, you know, established who created all our packaging and went on a limb, having Sam there and I have worked together for years and like, having him reimagine the brand in a year, whether it's all of the associates who asked if they could come back and work for me again. I don't, that's like the greatest compliment of my life. And or all the women that decided to represent the brand and the customers that have been through hell with us. I mean, I say to our team all the time, like, don't underestimate what our actual customers have been through with us, too.

• 1:12:26Gregg Renfrew?

  They fell in love with our brand, they fell in love with their vitamin C serum or their sunscreen or whatever, their body wash, and then it went away. And we let them down, not intentionally, but we let them down. We need to earn their trust back and we need to, we need to let them know that we're grateful for what, the fact that they're still here supporting us. So I've, I've learned a lot about gratitude and learned a lot about leading from a place of gratitude and, and respect and not, again, it goes back to the arrogance thing. Like, if you're a brand and you're trying to dictate to your customer and you think you know everything, but you're just in the wrong business because the only business you're ever in is in the business of people. And I have learned a lot about myself and I hope I'm a better leader of people today than I was before.

• 1:13:02Rich Roll?

  You have this letter on the new website where you kind of address this, you know, and it's a very, you know, it's, it's, there's a lot of humility in that, you know, and the humility is, is, is coming across as the counterpoint to the arrogance that, you know, was very much at the core of what derailed the whole previous enterprise. What was it like when you had to pick up the phone and call some of these old vendors or people that were owed, you know, like vendors that were owed money or your manufacturing partners? And, you know, there's so many moving pieces in this thing to like get it reassembled and functional must have been.

• 1:13:41Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, there were literally thousands, thousands of people that had been, you know, were owed from the old company. Well, it was, it was a kind of a, it was a pretty consistent conversation. I'd say, okay, well,

• 1:13:57Gregg Renfrew?

  we're kind of in a shitty situation, not of my doing nor of yours, and I'm going to ask you to take a chance on me a second time. And what I can commit to is I'm going to do everything in my power to make this a success for you. Neither of us is gonna get what we want out of this right now. I'm gonna have to give you more money than I'm wanting to or capable of, and you're gonna have to let go of money that you're owed. And there's nothing I can do about that. But if you want to play ball with me right now, let's play ball. And what I can promise you is I'm gonna work with less people, and I'm gonna make sure that I'm important to them, and that they're important to us, and that we treat them with the respect that they deserve. And so, we really sort of honed in on the list and brought in, we like got, I don't wanna say got rid of, we decided not to move forward with a certain group of people.

• 1:14:41Gregg Renfrew?

  And those that we're working with, we're working with closely. And I want them to be publicly acknowledged for it. And I want people to understand, and again, this is, the whole industry is built on secrets. Like, you never know, no one will ever talk about where they make their products or whatever. It's okay to say thank you to Elevation Labs that makes a lot of our products, that they took that chance and wrote that off, or some of the other partners. You know, I mean, it's been, you know, PacLab. I mean, there are all these companies that worked with us. And so, I think those conversations were hard. The conversations with the people side of it, especially the women that represented us, that understood that I just made money and sailed off into the sunset, because that's kind of the story that was told. Those conversations were harder, because they're personal. When someone is no longer able to afford private school, or back-to-school shopping comfortably,

• 1:15:25Gregg Renfrew?

  or they lost what they felt was their identity, those things hurt. Those are hard conversations. They're still hard conversations. But I try to be really honest. I had a woman who wrote me a letter. I'd invited her to an event that I was doing in Nashville. And she said, "How dare you write this letter, when my best friend represented your brand for years and died of cancer, and your business, you just let this business go out of business, and now you're back here and you want me to come to your event?" And I wrote her a letter back, and I just said, like, "First of all, I'm so incredibly sorry for your loss. And I actually am sorry that you lost your friend, and I am so appreciative of her efforts. And let me just tell you what really happened. And if you don't want to come, I so understand that. I respect that decision. I just want you to know I'm really, really sorry." And a couple of months later, she wrote me a letter back.

• 1:16:10Gregg Renfrew?

  And she said, "I'm so sorry I was so horrible to you. I'm just so sad about the loss of my friend." And I think sometimes when you just have those honest conversations, and people say, like, "You're human, I'm a human." Like, "This is a really bad situation." You know? I think some people can find forgiveness and support.

• 1:16:27Rich Roll?

  As of right now, what are the big challenges that you're facing? Like, what's top of mind in terms of the hurdles that you have to overcome to get this thing rolling?

• 1:16:38Gregg Renfrew?

  I think first and foremost, there are a million beauty brands out there. When we started Beauty Counter and started the clean beauty movement, there were no other brands. And there are a lot of brands that are claiming to be clean. And everyone just thinks, oh, well, they're just as good as you are. Because I'm not going to sit there and tell you my clean is cleaner than your clean. You don't build a brand on defense, even though I know we're going to lengths that 98% of the brands are not going to. So that's hard, because there's just a lot out there against whom we're competing, even though I think we're in a completely different place. And again, that goes back to retailers putting you side by side with a brand that puts clean on their label but isn't clean. So there's that challenge. So how do we create a leadership opportunity for ourselves?

• 1:17:21Gregg Renfrew?

  And how do we create that value proposition for our customer? So that's been challenging. I think that I'm behind when it comes to AI and understanding the implications of AI for my business. And also, as a company rooted in sustainability, what are those decisions? And so what do you do there? That's a real conundrum, right? Because we all know that AI is sucking everything out of the earth, so to speak. But also, it's where everyone's going, and so trying to figure that out. And I think the other challenge is trying to win the hearts back of women who represented us before and/or customers who felt disenchanted by where things went and don't necessarily understand all the facts. And at some point, you give up. But I've been trying to find opportunities to tell my story. And it's just, it's been a slower build than I thought it would be.

• 1:18:06Gregg Renfrew?

  Of course, I thought I'd just turn it on, it'd be easy. And, you know, I have to remind myself that we are a startup again and that you're constantly being presented with challenges. And not to give up, but just to say, okay, it is what it is. They dropped our holiday packaging into the water. Okay, what's plan B? And just not reacting.

• 1:18:22Rich Roll?

  The trust piece, that just goes back to your therapy session about the boyfriend. Like, you can't expect to ever earn that trust back. The only way that you will is by making peace with the fact that it may be irreparable, right?

• 1:18:36Gregg Renfrew?

  Yes.

• 1:18:37Rich Roll?

  Rather than trying to chase it, you just have to earn it over a very long period of time.

• 1:18:43Gregg Renfrew?

  If I'm being completely honest, it's still hard.

• 1:18:47Gregg Renfrew?

  That there are people that hate me or angry with me about things that I didn't actually do and I have to just live with that. Like that, that's just partly been when you're in the public eye that people aren't going to align with your values of the decisions were made, even if they don't have the context and don't necessarily understand that. I, I respect that. It's just, it's still something that I, I've learned to be at peace with it, but it's not easy. Still, I'm a sensitive person. In terms of winning the hearts back of our customers or people that represented the brand in the past, I absolutely told them when I shut the business down that if they needed to like really earn money that they needed to move on and I respect that. And some of them have come back and some haven't, but I'm not gonna, I'm not going to chase after something that is no longer. I am going to move forward and just to do my best. I get, look, it's not a guarantee.

• 1:19:32Gregg Renfrew?

  Like when we first launched the business, everyone's like, congrats, you did it. I'm like, no, we didn't do it. We turned it on. Like doing it is now. Doing is this year and next year and the forthcoming years and getting it right all over again. And you asked a second ago, like, what are some of my challenges? I mean, I don't have all the answers, Rich. It's not, it's not, business is challenging and I don't, I don't know exactly what I'm doing at all. The times, a lot of times. So we'll see. I mean,

• 1:19:56Rich Roll?

  How refreshing to hear that.

• 1:19:58Gregg Renfrew?

  I just don't, I don't. Like when someone's like, what's the plan? What's your vision? I'm like, I don't know. I'm still figuring it out. Is that okay?

• 1:20:04Rich Roll?

  Having, you know, played the game of business at such a high level, you know, where the amounts of money that are, you know, kind of being transacted are insane. What do people not understand about what that's like? Like there's so many founders or aspiring entrepreneurs who just dream of the day when Mr. Monopoly comes around and like wants to buy their company. And so I'm interested in, in, you know, a little dose of reality of, of what that entails and, you know, to give people a sense of that all may not be as it seems.

• 1:20:41Gregg Renfrew?

  It's, it's kind of like getting married.

• 1:20:45Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, you look really pretty in that white dress. You mean it's not happily ever after? You're the same person, then you've got a whole life ahead with all that comes with it. This guy still? It's the family, exactly. So I think that, well, I think first and foremost, I think that anyone that is, and I was this naive and others, and I've been this naive more than once, so I'm not this naive anymore. But if you think you're going to sell the controlling interest in your company, and you want out because you want the cash, need the cash, are exhausted, just want to move on, then you should sell your company. If you think you're going to sell the controlling interest of your company, you might make some money and you're going to run it your way and that you're going to be in charge anymore. You're not. I think that is one of the things, because I think that people do fall in love with founders. Founders are intoxicating.

• 1:21:29Gregg Renfrew?

  They're visionaries, they're passionate, they're exciting, they're sexy in a lot of ways. But if someone's going to pay a huge amount of money for anyone's company, whatever industry it's in, they're unexpected, they're going to do things their way because they're there to protect their investment. And there's a misalignment there oftentimes. And so I think that people entering into any financial, actually any financial sponsorship, even if it's in an early stage, like you are letting go of a certain amount of control. And so read the fine print, know what you're signing up for and know, and really be honest with yourself about what you're wanting to get out of it. If cash is what you're trying to get out of it, or to see your name on a billboard that you sold your business for a gazillion dollars, that ticker, you know, tape on the stock exchange,

• 1:22:13Gregg Renfrew?

  like that's fine, but just know that that's what you're getting, not, I'm going to get that and I'm going to still completely control my business. It's not going to happen. Even people that are in control of their publicly traded companies are not in control in a lot of ways, because you're always answering to someone. And I think that people forget that oftentimes. So I always say, when you're raising capital or you're selling or whatever, you know, do your own due diligence, like go talk to people that have worked with these people before. Find out what happened when the shit hit the fan. Go know that there's more money to be deployed than there are great leaders and great ideas. So make sure you're not just going to the first person or the highest bidder. That may not bode so well for you. Maybe you take a little less money, maybe it's a lower valuation,

• 1:22:54Gregg Renfrew?

  but you have more autonomy and more, you know, control of the board or the decisions. Like those things actually matter more in some ways than than that. And I think people get very caught up in numbers. But I always say, like, you could be worth 10 billion on paper, but until that thing has cleared your bank account, you're worth zero.

• 1:23:09Rich Roll?

  It's also interesting how revenue and growth takes priority over profitability.

• 1:23:15Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, not today.

• 1:23:16Rich Roll?

  If you want to, yeah, like if you want to, it's like in celebrating like these huge raises where, you know, what you're really doing is you're giving away your company. Like, are you sure you want to celebrate that? Because every time you do that, you're relinquishing some degree of control over this thing that you built, right? And I know that with Counter, like, you know, being a little bit more grounded, a little bit more mom and pop,

• 1:23:41Rich Roll?

  and, and, you know, kind of elementary economics around profitability is perhaps a lesson from what you experienced. Like, you went all the way to the top and you're like, this time, let's just, let's just like be profitable. It gives us optionality. We can make decisions. We, we don't have to rush into things because we're not chasing as long as we're profitable.

• 1:24:01Gregg Renfrew?

  Hundred percent, a hundred percent. That's a learning that is invaluable to me today. I think that one of the things that's really challenging for founders and CEOs of venture-backed, you know, institutionally-backed businesses is that they, it's like fashion, you know? It's like one length, the one, you know, year, the, like, the, we're all about this style and next year we're all about that. And that's what happened in the industry. It was growth at all costs and profitability at all costs and growth at all costs. Well, you can't, you can't do it all. So for me, I'd rather build a smaller profitable business that, to your point, has optionality. Don't get caught up in the big, you know, whatever posting in the New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, Women's Wear Daily about, we just raised at a $1.5 billion valuation.

• 1:24:46Gregg Renfrew?

  Just remember that that investor is expecting at least a three, three X on that investment. So do you feel really confident that you can deliver to a 4.5, a 5.5, a $7.5 valuation, billion dollar valuation? Because if you don't, for sure as hell, don't sign up for the 1.5 billion dollar. That, that's the thing. You have to execute against that valuation. It's something that's lost on people. They want a three to seven X.

• 1:25:09Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, it's all about like, I have a unicorn, I'm a unicorn company now, right? Like, that's, that's the goal. It's, it's a status symbol.

• 1:25:16Gregg Renfrew?

  It is a status symbol. And I admit that I fell prey to that too, because as a woman, you know, I was like, wow, I mean, I built a business, sold it for a billion dollars. But I think that, you know, at the end of the day, the other thing that I've learned is just, and you know this, as you've enjoyed success in your career, is that the deal closes and yes, you get some money in the bank and you feel nothing.

• 1:25:35Rich Roll?

  You wake up the next day and you're like, why am I the same person?

• 1:25:39Gregg Renfrew?

  It's like marriage. I was like, everyone I say, like, everyone's like, oh, my God, we're gonna get married. I'm like, guess what? The guy that you were, was your boyfriend a month ago, that's now your husband, is the same exact guy in the same relationship. It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's just the fact.

• 1:25:51Rich Roll?

  So five years from now, if this thing is successful and it's, you know, kind of growing as you anticipate it will, and those kinds of opportunities come knocking, like, what is the clarity? Like, what, how are you thinking about that differently than you were before?

• 1:26:09Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that I will, well, first of all, I will be way more focused.

• 1:26:13Rich Roll?

  You have investors.

• 1:26:14Gregg Renfrew?

  Right. I do have investors, but I, but I still have control. I think that for me, it is about, well, first of all, if I were to sell again, or go public, or whatever, I, I would be very clear on what exactly I'm signing up for, well in advance of signing any paperwork. I would really need to understand what that meant and look at all the upside, but more carefully look at all the downside. So I think that's something that's really important to me. And I think one of the things that I didn't do last time around, that I would do this time around, will do, is succession planning. Like, if I'm gonna step out or I'm gonna sell, like, what is, who's, who's gonna come in and, and lead? Because I'm probably not the best person to serve as a head of brand in a huge, large corporation. I'm probably

• 1:26:58Gregg Renfrew?

  not that person. But if I could groom someone to be my successor, and then, and then still have an affiliation with the brand, or whatever, and the movement, or the advocacy efforts, or helping women, that's an outcome that would be appealing to me. But I think that, you know, I am trying to build this time for longevity. Like, I want to build a business that will last the length of time. I wanted that last time around. Now I've learned that that doesn't always the case. And so I'm, I'm taking all the, the little steps right now, trying to make sure that we, that we build a brand that people can trust will be here in a year, in five years, in 25 years. And so that may be, mean that I never sell it. Maybe I just, it becomes profitable and we pay out dividends, or maybe we do go public

• 1:27:40Gregg Renfrew?

  someday. I don't know. But, but I'm gonna be much more cautious.

• 1:27:44Rich Roll?

  Not the rush to exit.

• 1:27:45Gregg Renfrew?

  No rush.

• 1:27:45Rich Roll?

  It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:46Gregg Renfrew?

  No.

• 1:27:48Rich Roll?

  Amidst all of this, being a woman entrepreneur, you know, there's a whole other kind of like layer to everything. So what is it that you've learned that is specifically applicable for the female entrepreneur out there?

• 1:28:03Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that we are often underestimated in general as women in many business situations, and we allow for that to become a liability or for us to think of ourselves in some ways as a liability when actually you should think of it being a woman as an asset because we have a high level of emotional intelligence. And oftentimes, if someone's not really listening to you, you can read between the lines and come up and surprise them. And I think that like when I sit in the room with a bunch of men and I know that they're underestimating me, I just, I don't get offended by, I mean, there's some of the things that people will say to me, I'm like, you've got to be kidding me.

• 1:28:43Rich Roll?

  What?

• 1:28:44Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, just like, I can't tell you how many, how many men came up to me over the years and would say, oh, do you have an office? I'd say, I do. And they're like, my wife's friend, she makes this really great lip balm in her kitchen.

• 1:28:53Rich Roll?

  Like you're running an Etsy shop or something?

• 1:28:55Gregg Renfrew?

  And there's nothing wrong with running an Etsy shop. But like, and then I'll say things, well, actually, like I sold my company to a private equity firm. And they'd be like, oh, really? Like, which private equity firm? I'd say, Carlyle. They're like, oh, what was the valuation? A billion dollars. That stops them in their tracks.

• 1:29:07Rich Roll?

  Each tick along the way, looking for the reason to be dismissive about it.

• 1:29:11Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. I mean, it's just unbelievable. So is that or someone towards the end, when we built a $400 million business that was valued a billion dollars, right before we sold the company, one of our board members said, have you guys ever thought of like having a dashboard where you like have a certain set of like KPIs and you're looking at how you're measuring against your, you know, key performance indicators or whatever in your business? I was like, you know, no, that's such a good idea. Thank you for asking me. I never thought about looking at certain metrics and whether or not we were doing well. I mean, it's just, it's staggering, the questions people ask you. But instead of getting angry about it, I would tell women, just use that to your advantage. Like, figure out how to be, make that like, almost like, think of yourself as an asset and dig deep and find confidence in those moments that someone else isn't telling you

• 1:29:56Gregg Renfrew?

  that you've got the chops to do it. The other thing that I did, which I will not do, and I was having this conversation, I had a meeting this morning before I came to meet with you.

• 1:30:05Gregg Renfrew?

  I remember distinctly having conversations with some of the more seasoned, older men that were working in the business with me, not that I was young at the time, but just people who had very established careers in their respective areas. And I remember them telling me like what I was saying couldn't be possible, or no one's ever gonna buy makeup in this way, or no one's gonna ever do this. And I allowed them to overrule my gut instincts. And the business would have been way more successful if I just listened to myself and had the confidence to say, Rich, I hear what you're saying. I disagree with you. We're still gonna move forward on the CEO. If you don't believe in me as a CEO, then there are a lot of other companies and people for whom you can work. I have that confidence today. I didn't have that 10 years ago. And I think a lot of women allow, because we always look for external validation, like in life, you know?

• 1:30:50Gregg Renfrew?

  You know, it's like you put on dress, you think you look pretty, but then you walk at the door and it's still someone's like, I like your dress, you look pretty. You don't think that. Men walk in the world and they're like, I look like a million dollars. So I think there's something about like having the confidence in yourself, that following your gut and not letting people influence you too much. It's not that you don't listen and learn from others, but knowing when your gut is telling you to do something as the founder and CEO, then do it.

• 1:31:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the big money people come in and they very confidently say like, I know this worked for you, but in our experience, and we do this all the time, and you know, we know what we're doing. If you do this, then you'll be bigger and your gut, your intuition is telling you that's a bad idea. But you know, it's easy to see why you would defer.

• 1:31:31Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, and oftentimes you're the only woman in the room. Oh, and by the way, it might have been really successful at Nike. I mean, this is a conversation I was having with a board member in my old company. He's like, well, at Nike, we did this. I said to the guy, I was like, yeah, that was like 1985. I mean, that's great that it worked at Nike in 1985. Like, the world is completely different. Whatever Nike did in 1985 is irrelevant right now. Like, what is happening right in this moment? And how do we serve the needs of today's consumer? And their, and their needs are ever changing and they're moving so quickly that we can't, yes, you can respect the past and learn from the past, but you don't apply the past today.

• 1:32:07Gregg Renfrew?

  Unless there's a real reason to do it.

• 1:32:08Rich Roll?

  So then what is your metric or your non-negotiables when it comes to your metaphorical board of advisors and your literal board of advisors? Like, how are you making decisions about who you're listening to and who those people are?

• 1:32:23Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, I basically have said it's more of a pull than a push. So when I want your help, I'm going to call you. But I don't expect you to project your ideas on me all the time. You know, I was really clear with the investors that came into this business that I respect them. That's why they're there. I need them. And I'm also not going to play by the old school rules. Like, I'm not going to put together 100-page decks every month for you for the financial reporting. And I'm not going to do these elaborate board meetings and tell everybody what you want to hear and then change my strategy because... Like, one of the things that I was criticized of in the old company was people used to say, like, "You're all over the map." And what I was trying to shield them from was what was actually going on behind the scenes from my investors and my board of telling me what to do every day, what they wanted, not what I wanted.

• 1:33:07Gregg Renfrew?

  So I appeared all over the map, but actually it was because it was like a ping-pong match of what they wanted. So I think today, I'm like, "Look, I'm going to stick with this. If I have a problem, I'm going to tell you in advance. If I need your help, I'm going to call you. But please, like, don't try to project your ideas on me 24/7 or try to get me to change what I'm doing because it suits your needs." I think I'm much more capable of having those conversations today. And I don't do it with disrespect. Like, they're there because they're also very successful people. But I keep saying, "If I need you, I'll call."

• 1:33:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You mentioned Steve Jobs and Bob Iger and a few other people. Like, who are the people out there that you look to and you're like, "That person knows what they're doing. Like, I'm going to, you know, kind of follow their principles or model my leadership strategy based upon their success."

• 1:33:56Gregg Renfrew?

  I think that...

• 1:33:57Rich Roll?

  Who are your inspirations?

• 1:33:58Gregg Renfrew?

  So I think that... I mean, I know so many people say this, but you know, when you look at what Yvon D'Art has done with Patagonia, one of my very best friends from high school has worked there for 20 years and I know a lot of those people. I think that, you know, when I first read his, "But let your people go surfing" and now "Dirtbag Billionaire," it's like learning from those who really stood their ground and were uncompromising in their commitment to their own personal mission or their business mission. I think that he's one that's played a part, even though I don't know him. Bob Iger is someone that I've, you know, I remember when I was going back in, he's like, "Are you sure you want to go back in? Like, are you crazy?" He's like, "It's not gonna be easy." And of course, now I'm like, "I should have listened to you, but whatever."

• 1:34:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but also him. Like, he did the same thing. You know, and it's like, "Should he have done that? I don't know."

• 1:34:44Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. It's hard to know. You know, it's like, it's always easy to look back, but I think he was really helpful with me in terms of things like make sure you're surrounded by operators, not just finance people. He's been really helpful to me. I mean, I hate to say it because, I mean, in some ways, she is stands for everything I don't, but I gotta give it to the Kardashians and like, and Jen's great and all the guys that are building out Skims and like, they keep doing these things culturally. Like, I'm like, I just, I'm fascinated by that marketing machine and how they've been able to do it.

• 1:35:15Rich Roll?

  Meeting the moment, being able to like leverage, uh, social media to meet the moment.

• 1:35:20Gregg Renfrew?

  And just, and just, and being unapologetic about who they are. Like, again, I don't live my life in the way that they live their lives, but they've had such significant influence and it's been, it's been interesting to watch them just build these businesses and how, you know, they've got to be some of the greatest marketers ever. I used to say like Madonna was like the greatest marketer ever and you could still say that about her. She just would reinvent herself and everyone would fall in love with her again. I mean, again, that's a little bit, a while ago, but it was, but people that know how to read the moment and then shift accordingly and then continue to build, I find really, really fascinating. There are a lot of people. I've always respected my friend Sarah Blakely and how she built Spanx, but then just how she's just done it with such humility and

• 1:36:03Gregg Renfrew?

  how she reaches out into community and learns from them. Like, there are a lot of really interesting people out there and I've been so fortunate to spend time with so many founders who inspire me every day in big ways and in little.

• 1:36:16Gregg Renfrew?

  I'll tell you else who's just been so helpful to me recently, honestly, is my kids. I mean, you want to know what's going on in the world? Talk to a 16-year-old girl. Talk to a kid who cares. Talk to my son about what's important to him. Like, I'm learning from my children every day. Whether it's, you know, Phoebe and her desire to help the world through like international relations and really helping people in that way. Or my son who like, you know, the way that he looks at the gamification of things and looking at that. Or, you know, Georgie, who just knows everything about pop culture. I learn from them a lot. And I think older people who are not looking to younger people for learning are crazy.

• 1:36:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Have you figured out how to better balance all of these things? We're in this, you know, post-girl boss era, you know? And having gone through what you went through, are you on the other side of it with a healthier appreciation for the other things in your life that are important that often challenge or conflict with, you know, running a business?

• 1:37:15Gregg Renfrew?

  Yes, and, yes, and it's still really intense. I am trying to find, if you're asking my husband, my husband would be like, she's not very balanced. I think if you ask my friends, they'd say I have a more balanced approach to it. I think I'm spending, I'm carving out more time for myself. I'm absolutely focused on what I'm eating, my exercise, my sleep. Like, I don't compromise on that now. Like, I used to, years, maybe not so much during the beauty counter years, but I would sort of put my exercise last. Now, it's like, nope, that's a non-negotiable for me. Like, that is a non-negotiable. Taking holiday and vacations with my family, non-negotiable. I'm just like, you guys, if you guys can't handle the business for a week or two without me, we've got a real problem here. And letting other people do that, too. And I'm trying to strike that balance. With all that said, it is an intense moment.

• 1:38:00Gregg Renfrew?

  And I, and I think that, I don't understand how people think that they can just kind of breeze in and out of businesses and build really successful companies. I haven't quite, if someone could figure out how to do it, I'd love to know. I mean, I see a lot of younger people, they think, oh, it's just like my side gig or I don't want to do a nine to five. Like, now, you know, on the, on sort of the tech side, they're saying nine-nine-six. If you're not willing to work from nine to nine, six days a week, like, we don't want you. They're going the other direction again. I think it's hard to build businesses. And so, finding that balance is hard. But I am saying yes to a birthday party. If a friend invited me away for a weekend for her birthday, where I would have not made it, and I've lost so much time with people because of that.

• 1:38:40Gregg Renfrew?

  And friendships and your family are really, really important, obviously, and I lost time.

• 1:38:46Rich Roll?

  Back to the clean beauty aspect of this, you have this like never list, right? Which is, these are the ingredients that you should know are never going to go on our products. And not for nothing, those are probably the ingredients you should be aware of because they end up in all these other products that you're, you know, if you're not buying our products or something similar, you are going to be buying these things. So what are some of those things? I want to kind of like leave people with some really practical, you know, pieces that when they go to the store the next time, they're armed with a little bit more education.

• 1:39:24Gregg Renfrew?

  And don't ask me what they all stand for, because of pegs. So you'll see in capital letters, P E G, pegs, anything, the parabens. I just, I know that in Europe, they feel like they're okay. I don't, I don't agree with that.

• 1:39:40Gregg Renfrew?

  I would say E D T A.

• 1:39:45Gregg Renfrew?

  I'll tell you one that I think that people, any of those spray sunscreens, oxybenzone, avobenzone, like you really don't want those. First of all, they're killing the coral reefs. So more importantly, they're, not more importantly, as importantly, they're really harmful to us and people continue to use this. I understand that the mineral-based sunscreens go on and they're a little whiter and chalkier and they don't look as cute. But like every time someone sprays that aerosol sunscreen on the beach, I just shudder and die. And then I think the one thing that if you do nothing else in the industry is just shop fragrance-free. Because some of the most offensive chemicals, like those phthalates, are found in fragrance.

• 1:40:26Gregg Renfrew?

  And because of international IP law, a company does not have to disclose any of the ingredients in fragrance, right? Because it's a trade secret. So don't, don't be fooled by that. Just go for, go for fragrance-free products. You'll be 50% of the way there if you just do that. And you know, like, we still publicly publish or never listen. I always say, like, I'm not here for everyone to buy counter products. I'm here to help people make informed choices. They can use the Environmental Working Groups, Skin Deep Database. I mean, that's a good one that you can type in any product and see, you know, what it is that's in there. And, you know, there's a lot of talk about talc because of asbestos. There's some clean talc. There's some not so clean talc, you know, but just, just pay attention and use those if you're shopping the market.

• 1:41:09Rich Roll?

  And insofar as labels are concerned, for example, with sunscreen, if it says Coral Safe, that doesn't necessarily...

• 1:41:16Gregg Renfrew?

  I mean, it's supposed to be, but yes.

• 1:41:18Rich Roll?

  This is sort of self policing, right? Like, it's not, it's not reliable.

• 1:41:21Gregg Renfrew?

  Well, if it sprays on clear, and it has Ava benzone or oxybenzone, and it says it's reef safe, it's not. So I think that, you know, there's a lot of talk about this. And, you know, we were in Hawaii in 2024, and we were talking about this. And they, they could actually see, they banned all of those sunscreens from Hawaii. Not that people don't sneak them in, but they are banned because they could see like a, like a, like almost like an oil slick on top of the water outside of some of the bays because people were using so much sunscreen and it was going in. And it's, I mean, we, we only have one earth and life to protect. Like, let's do the best to err on the side of being cautious and preventative rather than waiting for the repercussions of our decisions.

• 1:42:04Rich Roll?

  Are you anticipating getting back to the Hill and doing what you were doing before? Is that on the horizon?

• 1:42:10Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah, maybe not this week. Um, yes, I do believe that we need to fight for, I really want to continue to focus on the modernization or the sort of getting toxic free cosmetics and personal care products. So when, when things, you know, we are actively still having conversations, but I think that it's a very challenging time, obviously. I think that, but I do still encourage people to, you know, send members of Congress in emails and texts saying that you care about, you know, your health and that they, that you want them to take preventative measures to protect your health through cosmetics and personal care. We are going to focus on the fragrance loophole.

• 1:42:51Gregg Renfrew?

  We think that is one and also supply chain transparency. I said to you earlier in this podcast that in the conversation we had that you can pre preserve an ingredient and extract the juice from it, so to speak, put it into product and say it's preservative free. Like that's part of the lack of supply chain transparency. A company shipping into the United States doesn't need to say that they actually pre preserve the rose petals with parabens or whatever the the preservative is. We need to tackle up and so up and down the supply chain. There are a lot of loopholes that need to be tackled and fragrance is one of the other things that needs to be tackled. And we will continue our efforts, both on the state and federal level to try to affect change.

• 1:43:29Rich Roll?

  It can be paralyzing from a consumer perspective. Like, we can't be expected to like know all of these things. Like when we're when we're buying our product. I mean, they're relying on us not knowing these things, obviously. But just the well intentioned, reasonably well informed person who's trying to make the right choice. Well, you know, their their baby is in the grocery cart, whatever, like, you know, it's just like, there's only so much we can expect the consumer to know and to do.

• 1:43:56Gregg Renfrew?

  Of course. And it's also hard and it can be expensive. But, you know, things like your baby, like your baby doesn't need to be watched with soap and water when they're a little baby, like just wash them with water. Like, just there are things that you can do, like you can take your shoes off at the door. You can wash your floors with water and vinegar. You know, there are things that we can do just to remove from our day to day life, some of the most offensive chemicals. Don't store food in plastic. Just, you know, splurge on the glass and, you know, maybe you buy less glass, but you keep it in glass. Don't microwave things in plastic. They're just things that consumers are doing because they're convenient, but they aren't necessarily healthy for you at all.

• 1:44:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Is it then worth it?

• 1:44:34Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:35Gregg Renfrew?

  On every level.

• 1:44:35Rich Roll?

  You're happy?

• 1:44:36Gregg Renfrew?

  I am happy. I mean, I I'm still a little scared. Um, it's not easy.

• 1:44:42Rich Roll?

  It's early days.

• 1:44:43Gregg Renfrew?

  It's early days, but it feels good to be back in the game. It feels good to be working with people on something that I think really matters. And I do think that clean is worth fighting for. I think our health is worth fighting for. I think women are worth fighting for. And I and I just feel I do feel honored to have the opportunity to serve again.

• 1:45:03Gregg Renfrew?

  Whether we'll be a smashing success or not, I don't know. I'm going to certainly give it my all. I think we can be, but I don't think it's a guarantee. But I am happy and I'm really, really appreciative for like the outpouring of love from former clients, from people who sold. Like I was saying to an editor in New York last week, I remember when the shit went down, she sent me a text. It was a woman named Linda Wells. She'd been at Allora magazine, really powerful in the beauty industry. And she said, "How can I help? Like, I want to help." And those things meant so much to me along the way. And I continue to hear from people like, "We're cheering for you. We want to see you guys do this." And so I do feel the support of many. I then turned to my friends and I'm like, "You're cheering for me, but have you shopped?" So like holidays are fast approaching.

• 1:45:47Gregg Renfrew?

  I've got great solutions and counter products. But you know, I do, I do, I'm hopeful and I'm excited and I'm really passionate still. But I'm also, I'm more mature and I'm more humble and I don't take anything for granted anymore. I can tell you that.

• 1:46:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I'm cheering for you.

• 1:46:04Gregg Renfrew?

  Thank you.

• 1:46:05Rich Roll?

  But I have yet to buy, so I guess I can buy now. But I can, because you can do that on the website, right?

• 1:46:11Gregg Renfrew?

  You can do it on the website, 100%.

• 1:46:12Rich Roll?

  So I was looking at, is it counter.com? What is it? It's counter.com.

• 1:46:16Gregg Renfrew?

  Counter Beauty and Counter, yep. And if someone goes the old beauty counter one, it goes right.

• 1:46:19Rich Roll?

  You did a great job with the websites.

• 1:46:20Gregg Renfrew?

  Thank you.

• 1:46:21Rich Roll?

  You know, it definitely evokes the ethos of being very clean, you know?

• 1:46:25Gregg Renfrew?

  Yeah. Well, we, you know, we are clean and we're genuinely walking the walk. And it's hard. And I want people to understand how hard it is. It's complex and comprehensive. And it, and real clean requires a lot of really hard work. It's not just, it's not just that never list. It's what is the packaging? Is it leaching the toxin back in? Are we ethically and responsibly sourcing ingredients? Is a woman safe in the field while she's harvesting that crop? Like, we take it very seriously. And how I tell that story, I don't know. It's hard to tell, but I want people to know that I'm, you know, I do really care because people matter and our health matters. So I'll look forward to your purchase.

• 1:47:02Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm, I'm proud of you. You know, I think, I think what you're doing takes a lot of courage. Like, you didn't have to do this. You could have done a million other things and you're just marching right towards it, you know? And I think that speaks to your character. So, uh, thank you for coming and sharing, sharing all of that with me today. I appreciate it.

• 1:47:19Gregg Renfrew?

  I appreciate you.

• 1:47:20Rich Roll?

  All right, Greg. Until next time.

• 1:47:21Gregg Renfrew?

  Until next time.

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:47:28Rich Roll?

  All right, everybody. That's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I really do hope that you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit today's episode page at ritual.com, where you will find the entire podcast archive, as well as my books, Finding Ultra, The Voicing Change Series, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is free, actually. All you gotta do is subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review, or drop a comment. Sharing your show, or your favorite episode, with friends, or on social media is, of course, awesome as well, and extremely helpful. So

• 1:48:10Rich Roll?

  thank you in advance for that. In addition, I'd like to thank all of our amazing sponsors, without whom this show just would not be possible, or at least, you know, not free. To check out all their amazing product offerings and listener discounts, head to ritual.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at ritual.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, along with associate producer Desmond Lowe. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music, as always, was created all

• 1:48:54Rich Roll?

  the way back in 2012 by my stepsons Tyler and Trapper Pyatt, along with our cousin, Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, and I'll see you back here soon. Peace. Plants.