Tucker and Mike Cernovich on Nicolas Maduro’s Capture, Charlie Kirk’s Murder, and Battling Demons

Mike Cernovich on Maduro’s capture, Charlie Kirk’s murder and how everything is downstream from the spiritual war. (00:00) The Capture of Nicolas Maduro (11:15) Was This a Victory for the US? (25:50) What Do the Next 3 Years Look Like? (37:17) The Institutionalized White Hate in America (49:21) Why Regime-Changing Venezuela Is a Pivot Point in American History (1:45:22) Should We Be Worried About Demon Possession? (1:47:22) Death and the Final Judgement Paid partnerships with: Vandy Crisps: Get 25% off with code TUCKER at https://vandycrisps.com/Tucker Cowboy Colostrum: Get 25% off your entire order with code TUCKER at https://cowboycolostrum.com Last Country Supply: Real prep starts with the basics. Here’s what we keep stocked: https://lastcountrysupply.com Battalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver. Gain clarity and confidence in your financial future at https://battalionmetals.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I started Or Not in 2013 and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non-technical people. We're able to admin everything on the backend, frontend, and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify. Start your free trial on Shopify.com.

• 0:33Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you, Mike, for doing this. So what do you think of the apprehension of Nicholas Maduro?

• 0:40Speaker 02

  I'm dealing with a lot of, because I spend a lot of time online, which you don't. And I think there's pros and cons to each approach.

• 0:48Tucker Carlson?

  For sure.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  And the pro is that you're really plugged in. The con is that if you read the comments, which I do, you really take a lashing every day. Like, I just, because you can't, by virtue of taking a position, you just get lashed by one side or the other.

• 1:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I've heard that.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  So now, apparently, I'm a neocon again. I'm a neocon, which is bizarre, because I was pro the raid on Maduro. And people say, well, therefore, you're a neocon. And the answer is...

• 1:16Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you're not a neocon, which is, so that's why it's interesting that you were in favor of it.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  Of course. But if you're online, yeah, of course. But if you're online, you're whatever, the most extreme. That's what they call you. And no, I'm not. I'm not. And I'm not an interventionist either. But there's a, I feel like we're always stuck between this false dialectical of you either do nothing, or boots on the ground. We need full marine battalions to take the beachheads. Whereas I've always been approached, I've always been a fan of the Trump approach, which is use Delta. We have these guys, do targeted strikes, remind the world that the USA is still a world power, even though we might not feel that way. And exercise our might for a good purpose. So people say, well, this is Iraq or Afghanistan again. And I go, the people of Venezuela are not the people that they're not the same

• 2:04Speaker 02

  people.

• 2:05Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  As Afghanistan. It's a different people. We've had special forces there for three, four decades. We've had business interests there for decades. The people of Venezuela voted out Maduro or tried to, and they couldn't get rid of them. So we went in and we got rid of them. So obviously, I oppose escalation and whatever. But the parade of horrors, especially after Soleimani, just hasn't happened yet. And that's because I've talked to a lot of special operations guys during the Trump admin and his, the way his approach differed, this was covered a little bit in the media, but not enough is under Obama, they just didn't let the D-boys and them run missions. They, everything had to get approval and work

• 2:48Speaker 02

  up the chain. And by the time it happened, they didn't have their targets. And the Trump approach was, we have these people, they're trained, the, the, the level of the missions that they can accomplish, which we saw on video is unbelievable, right? He lets them, he lets them do the missions, they do the targeted strikes. I've, I've always been supportive of that.

• 3:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Um, I don't know if, I mean, I've got a double stack staccato nine in my bedside drawer. I've never used it. I don't feel the need to use it. But I mean, just cause like, but no, I, well, I'll just tell you what I'm grateful for. And I'm grateful for the wisdom of not taking out the entire government, not because I support the government, but because, you know, we have clear models in Iraq and Libya and a lot of Syria. Like, it can be very hard to put those things back together again. And the fact that they appear to be backing Delcy Rodriguez, not because they love her, but because they're in favor of stability over chaos and her brother. And they're kind of, you know, keeping the structure in place, but.

• 3:51Tucker Carlson?

  Making sure it's pro-American, that seems like a much wiser approach. That makes me calm down a little bit, right?

• 3:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, the, the, the problem that everybody, the neoliberal and even some people on the right have is they don't understand that you needed a strong man like Saddam Hussein to keep all these religious sects together. And it's obviously, it's obvious in hindsight, right? But at the time, people either didn't know, and in my opinion, they didn't know.

• 4:19Tucker Carlson?

  I think that's true.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  People, people were just generally clueless. Like, I remember I spent time with my wife in Vietnam and you'd, you'd roam around all over the place. And I remember we did the tours of the caves. And all I could think of was-

• 4:33Tucker Carlson?

  The tunnels?

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Not even the tunnels yet, just the caves and the jungle. And all I could think of was, I can't even fit in through here. What in the world are we doing sending 18-year-old corn-fed boys and black guys into the Vietnam jungles? Because if anybody had done any kind of advanced recon, you would just say, our guys are too big for the territory. You would literally just go through. There's, there's just a lot to be said for looking at the real estate.

• 4:58Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  And you would walk through and forget the tunnel rats and all the other ways that they were buried in. You would just say, there's no way we can send our people out here. This is just a completely different area. And then Vietnam, people have always tried to conquer them for thousands of years, and they actually take pride in not being conquered. And the foreign policy leader, of course, just said, well, we're going to do Vietnam. And it was the same thing with Iraq and Libya. Oh, all people are the same. Everybody's the same.

• 5:24Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  We'll just remove Saddam Hussein and everything will be fine. Then, of course, you have a mess. But with Venezuela and Latin America, they're, they're just pretty much like us. It's a little bit of a different culture, but they've been influenced by the Europeans. They've been influenced by Catholic Church. They're running a, like, similar operating system. You can communicate to them in sort of like a shared language. So even though people have doctrinal debates and everybody wants, like, debates religion and what's the truth, which to me is like the most boring thing in the world. Like if somebody's a Christian, and I'm a Christian, you're gonna maybe disagree about, can you drink? Can you do this?

• 6:03Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  What is this? But you're still in the same language, right? You're still able to, you're still like, close enough that you can-

• 6:11Tucker Carlson?

  You share a framework, like you can understand what someone's saying.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  And then we, we didn't share a framework with the Middle East.

• 6:16Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Which is a big problem. So in Venezuela, it's a, it's a different, it's a different situation. And I also like that the air defense was completely disabled, even the Iran strike that happened a few months ago. We, we disabled their air system. We, we sent a message, and I think we need to send a message. The, I'm sounding like a neocon. That's why I hate that neocon, I hate that neocons ruined it for all of us. I hate that neocons ruined the discussion where you can't just talk about how it's good to have military might. It's good to remind the world that we exist and that we can do these things, we being the United States of America. It's good to remind people that we're still running the tables. But you talk like that, and you sound again like you, does it belong at the Weekly

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Standard or something?

• 7:02Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, you still have a chance to pivot against the neocons because the Bibi people, literally Bibi's office, is pushing for MCM, this Machado lady, the, the gay marriage lady, the Klaus Schwab acolyte, um, who is supposed to be the Nobel Prize winner, actually, who's supposed to be the president in waiting, and Trump has said, flat out, no, she has no support, we're not doing that. But the neocons are pushing for her. They don't want, uh, the vice president to ascend to the presidency. So you can say that's crazy.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Well, I knew when she won the Nobel Peace Prize, I actually posted, we're gonna go into Venezuela.

• 7:39Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  I, I, you can just check the receipt.

• 7:41Tucker Carlson?

  But not with her.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Well, no, but the point is, that's how the table gets set. You can all, by now, by now, you can tell the future if you just know that they always set the table a little bit beforehand. And the minute she won the Nobel Peace Prize and then praised Trump, oh no, thank you for this, but, and then she's immediately kind of schmoozing with Trump, oh yeah, we're, we're going into Venezuela. I don't need any inside, I don't need any, I don't need any top secret sources. That was all I needed to see. So whoever we send, I don't know, I'd just send Rubio. I, I'm just, I'm, I'm, where, where we went wrong- And I've had this conversation with everybody from line infantry guys to people who did the higher level stuff in Afghanistan. They said, we just didn't want to rule the country. We went in and we won all the military engagements. This is another thing too, why I'm

• 8:27Speaker 02

  glad the Venezuela mission happened. I was so, I got so triggered, man. The way that even people politically aligned with us would talk about the American fighting man. Oh, they can't win a war. They got beat by people who wear flip flops and say, no, they didn't. We took almost no casualties in Afghanistan. And I think the last year we were there, I'm not even sure if there was a single casualty. It was occupation that was lost. And these are just completely different things. So I think it's good to just remind people that that was all black pill dumaism because of poor leadership by people like Milley and Biden and the woke generals. And that we have a unreal, we should take great pride in the people that we have and

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Delta and SEALs and special operations.

• 9:14Tucker Carlson?

  Of course. But I mean, they're not making the policy decisions. They're not that they're the instruments of other people's decisions.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  They are, but they, it's a two way street. These guys are not potted plants, right?

• 9:24Tucker Carlson?

  Of course not. But I'm merely saying you can't hold, you know, a man with a gun in his hand, responsible for the decision to be there with a gun in his hand, like he was told to do that by someone in DC.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, they're with, I don't know. I think that where I think that to have retention at these higher level, these higher level units, I think is the DC people, they obviously have an opinion. But I think, I think those guys get more of a vote than we might give them credit for. They obviously can't just say, well, I'm not going to go do this. But they, you know, they have a, these are strong willed people. Like I've met enough of these guys. One, they're extremely impressive. It's just a different caliber of person and.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  It's very humbling because I would say, oh, I couldn't do this. You know, maybe some aspect of it I could, but I couldn't. I don't have any delusions that I would have been a squadron commander in Delta Force. Whatever. These are unbelievably impressive people.

• 10:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, they are.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  So they're, they're not just, you know, they're, you know, scribbling down notes while some Muppet gives them instructions.

• 10:26Tucker Carlson?

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• 13:36Tucker Carlson?

  Loss does. So if the administration pulls this off and the country remains intact, and you know, you don't have various generals occupying oil fields and claiming them for their own, you don't have a civil war, you don't have a migrant crisis that wrecks Columbia or winds up here. If Venezuelans in the United States return to Venezuela immediately, as I think they should be required to do, like immediately, Venezuelan nationals, then, you know, that is amazing. That will be amazing. And I'm praying for that.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's always good. I mean, it's always good to look at what victory looks like and...

• 14:13Tucker Carlson?

  So you think this is victory?

• 14:15Speaker 02

  No. It's good to think what victory would look like.

• 14:18Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  This was the first step. I think it was a good step. But victory looks like we install our person who is aligned, but you can't have a puppet because then every... Because remember, 2020 is not guaranteed, so we have to think longer term too.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  You want to get a person who's aligned and is has their own point of view, but generally is going to do the right thing. The people of Venezuela, dude, they were eating that. I mean, you're in Florida. You talk to anybody in Florida, they're thrilled that this happened, that Maduro is out of power. A lot of these people, they had their farms taken, their land taken.

• 14:57Tucker Carlson?

  See, I don't care about that. Like, you show up in our country, you adopt our concerns, and importing your homeland's conflicts into my country and making those the basis of my foreign policy should strip your citizenship immediately. Like, what? I mean, I don't know. Like, I'm not advocating for anything in Sweden or Great Britain. I mean, do you know what I mean? Like, stop.

• 15:22Speaker 02

  They were during World War I, though. That's what the Anglos who founded the country, so I guess they were allowed to do it. But if you go back and read the debates around World War I, a lot of it was about, well, we should go back because that's the homeland. And people are naturally going to do that, which is why, Jim, which is why I support immigration moratorium and everything. But you, I don't know. I guess I'm more of a pragmatist and idealist. We live in the world sort of as it is. And Florida used to be a swing state. It's deep red now. Venezuelans who come over are anti-communist. We need anti-communists. Miami, like, I'll give you an example. So if you hold events, I mean, you're way too famous at this point. God help you. Is, I mean that like sincerely, like,

• 16:06Speaker 02

  God help you. If you go to Miami and Antifa or somebody showed up, the Cubans would just say, what do you, get out of here. Like, we're gonna-

• 16:13Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they did that during BLM.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  We're gonna, like, beat your asses.

• 16:16Tucker Carlson?

  Miami had no meaningful BLM riots. Tampa did. Why? Because Tampa's the only majority white city in Florida. That's why.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Right. So it's us-

• 16:25Tucker Carlson?

  You feel like guilty whites.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  It's us, like, pussy whites indulging in that, and the Cubans and Venezuelans who come in and live under communism. So if I look at the whole picture, sometimes it's good to get a little injection of people who lived, you know, who lived under that because they're gonna- They're gonna see it not as an abstract philosophical gentlemanly debate about, oh, should we allow wealth confiscation and for your homelands to be destroyed? They see it as a fight for survival, so.

• 16:51Tucker Carlson?

  I get it. I just, it, to take the attention away from our country, which as far as I'm concerned is not thriving, doesn't seem to be from driving around, or there's some problems that need to be addressed, big problems, imminent problems. And I don't know, to spend all your time worrying about Cuba, like, I don't, I love the Cubans here, love them, but how much money do you want to spend out of like your kid's college fund on regime changing Cuba?

• 17:20Speaker 02

  I'm more of an imperialist, I guess, than you. Like, we live in Rome, the empires do what empires do. Like, I just.

• 17:28Tucker Carlson?

  But look what happened to Rome and London.

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Well.

• 17:31Tucker Carlson?

  And Venice and every other, the seat of every other empire.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Rome lasted a long time.

• 17:37Tucker Carlson?

  It did.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Till the fall of Constantinople, which was.

• 17:39Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that, no.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  Eastern, the Holy Roman Empire, okay?

• 17:43Tucker Carlson?

  You're adding a few centuries on there.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  No, no, no. So I remember, it's a funny story, actually. I remember, I was, because I, you know, I'm argumentative sometimes.

• 17:53Tucker Carlson?

  Good.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  I remember in my twenties, I would always hear people say, oh, this is like the fall of the, the Roman Empire. I was like, I wonder what that means? Well, this is all pre-internet too, so you couldn't just read, read Twitter all day and have people summarize it. And so I bought Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

• 18:11Tucker Carlson?

  All three volumes, the single most boring treatment ever written.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  It's very well written, though. And I just kept reading and reading and reading and reading and reading. And I think I got the abridged sixth volume, whatever, and I made it through three of six. And I go, there's a lot to Rome. I don't know if we could just say there's a singular point.

• 18:28Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Where, oh, this is where, it's just like The Decline and Fall, so. I'm more, I'm more Bolshevik pilv on the time we're in. Like, I think we're much more closer to the time of Franco, or the time of the Tsar in Russia. And, you know, like, Missy Grove, when he republished those books, I read all those.

• 18:47Tucker Carlson?

  I did too.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  I had no real, like, the White, I remember, actually, it was funny when you said, uh, "Where's the White Army?" And then all these websites try to say, "He was a Nazi army." And I was like, "You historical literates, it was the White Army, it was the people fighting..."

• 19:00Tucker Carlson?

  The White Army, yeah.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no, but you realize how literate.

• 19:03Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, they thought that I meant like, white, like, the David Duke Army or something?

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I know, I mean, again, no, I know, I remember, and I was like, wow, these people are just literate, historic, illiterates. And, no, because you send the monologue, like, "Where's our White Army?" And immediately, it was like, Twitter was like, lighting up Tucker Carlson.

• 19:21Tucker Carlson?

  This is why I don't look at it. That's dispiriting.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  No, but that's really how literate people are. And people who write for a living should know better, right? Because I didn't know what the White Army was until I was under lockdown on COVID. COVID, COVID in a way was the worst thing that happened to regime propaganda.

• 19:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Because everybody was locked in, and we had all these smart people who were just, like, posting things. And you'd have these long threads, and I go, I never, General Franco, all I knew about General Franco was he's a fascist, right? General Franco was bad, the Republicans were good, and that was my understanding of it. Cortez was bad, the conquistadors were evil men, they were, they were great wicked people. Okay, that was, that's what I learned in school. Bolshevik revolution, I kind of had a sense that it happened, and the communists won, and it wasn't good, but I didn't realize the full evil, right? And then with COVID, you're like, wait a minute, people are just posting books. I'm like, well, I guess I'll just keep reading, you know, I was reading like, three, four books a week, right? And, like, you realize, oh no, we're not living under the fall of Rome,

• 20:25Speaker 02

  we're living under the time of the Spanish Civil War, or the Bolshevik Revolution, that's what we're living under.

• 20:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I agree with that. And it's a bad, it's a spiritual war, as both of those were, the French Revolution, same, revolutions of 1848, same.

• 20:40Tucker Carlson?

  It's all the same.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  So we need, we need the Cubans and the Venezuelans and the people who live

• 20:43Tucker Carlson?

  I agree. I just want to focus on the United States to keep it from becoming Bolshevik Russia.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's like tied together. So.

• 20:51Tucker Carlson?

  So let me, okay, so it does, since you read Gibbon, um, and bless you for getting through that. It took me almost a year to read that whole thing because it's so tough, but, um.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  It's a different, it's a different writing style.

• 21:03Tucker Carlson?

  It is a different writing style and it's, but it's worth it.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  So, so when you read older books, which is especially good as we get up there in the years, there, they have, you know, cause I write short punchy boom, boom, boom. But then I have to remind myself, you gotta go back and read to where you read a full paragraph. And you're like, wait a minute, I need to actually pay attention to what I'm reading. The, the flow is a little bit different and it's a much denser kind of writing.

• 21:26Tucker Carlson?

  And a, and a book length idea can be fully formed.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:31Tucker Carlson?

  But, okay, but since you're interested in Rome, there was this pivot, I mean, the pivot really was not the fall of Rome. That was the end and you're, you're giving Istanbul credit for being Rome. Uh, okay. But in the fifth century, Rome, the place was invaded by the German tribes and collapsed. So the big pivot though, was the move from republic to empire. And it kind of feels like that's where we are.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  It, but we're afraid to be an empire.

• 21:59Tucker Carlson?

  Right. But maybe what we saw two days ago is the beginning of a period where like, okay, we're an empire. We're embracing it.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  That, that was, that's, I mean, that's my hope is Amer- you know, American imperialism. Because I believe we're a just, immoral people. I believe we're a Christian people. I believe that the Venezuelan, I believe in, like, I believe that the greatest spiritual battle is the, and I don't mean to sound like utopian or sound like a Bolshevik myself, because some of this, that's why again, the left and the neo cons, like they took all this. They ruined, they ruined everything because you end up sounding like a leftist utopian, or you, you sound like a neocon when you say these things, but I just, I believe in my heart that America's the most righteous country that has, that's ever lived, that, that Western

• 22:48Speaker 02

  Europe, if it, if it doesn't fall, needs, needs to remain upright, and that human suffering will be reduced by what was done in Venezuela. So I think that's one way that I look at foreign policy is, in the Middle East, we created human suffering on a, on a scale that's catastrophic, and Vietnam especially too, like that's one thing that always annoys me that I think the Cambodian genocide should be taught in our schools because one, it was because of communism and Pol Pot, and two, it was our fault because we were using Cambodian airspace, and that's what led to Pol Pot's rise, and-

• 23:23Tucker Carlson?

  Plopping up Prince Sienoc and the whole thing. No, you're absolutely right.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  If we have a national guilt, we should actually have a national guilt over the Cambodian genocide, and we never rebuilt it. We just sort of left them to live in squalor.

• 23:37Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you know who did fix it actually was Vietnam. Vietnam invaded in 1978 and kicked him out, right?

• 23:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:45Tucker Carlson?

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• 24:55Tucker Carlson?

  You heard it here first.

• 24:56Speaker 05

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• 25:26Speaker 06

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• 25:39Speaker 05

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• 25:40Speaker 06

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• 25:42Speaker 05

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• 25:43Speaker 06

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• 25:56Tucker Carlson?

  But, okay, so I guess I haven't quite figured out what I think. I have a lot of thoughts. Obviously, I'm totally opposed and have been since Iraq, since 2003, to anything like this. On the other hand, I'm thinking to myself, maybe, well, maybe I'm not in charge of history. Okay, that's like one thing that, you know. Um, and maybe it's just time to accept the reality of it. So I would like to live in a small agrarian Christian republic where everyone knows everyone else. Like, that's kind of my idea of utopia. That's not anywhere near what we have. We live on a continent-sized country with 350 million other people, and we'll probably have 500 billion by the time we're old. Okay?

• 26:41Tucker Carlson?

  So, and we run the, at least, half of the world. So maybe what we're seeing is people just embracing what was already true and not, like, fighting against, like, I hate the idea of having an empire, but we do.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:56Tucker Carlson?

  So maybe that is what's happening? I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  No, I mean, you're born into the world, right? That, that's, that's the, you know.

• 27:03Tucker Carlson?

  You got an empire, just roll with it? Be an empire?

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Like, you're born into a body. You're born into, like, a human body and these, like, weird things, and you have to figure out how to balance being an animal and, and a spirit. And you didn't, we didn't choose it. We're born into America, in a particular place and time, and here's the problems that we have. Here are the resources that we have. What, you know, what can we do? To, you know, reduce as much as possible, human suffering and, you know, govern justly as an empire. And we had one. We, we, I mean, in a way, we don't have one. That's the problem. It's like the worst of all worlds where they invade the world, invite the world. I forget who coined that, but that's

• 27:41Tucker Carlson?

  It was a favorite of Pep Buchanan's for sure.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. It might've been Steve Saylor, one of those guys, but we had the worst of it, which is, oh, we're going to go in and destroy your countries. And then we're going to bring you back up here to do daycare welfare fraud.

• 27:53Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  Whereas, whereas the righteous thing to do would have said, we're going to invade your countries, but we're actually going to share in your resources. And that was one of the real, I think evils of removing Gaddafi was they had education, they, which again, sounds very leftist, but a lot of this is just objectively true. And they had free oil, more or less, free petrol. And now they have, you know, open air slave markets. So we, we did the, the worst. We didn't build empires. We destroyed other people's places. And then rather than colonizing them, we brought everybody up here and now we have

• 28:32Speaker 02

  40 trillion in debt, scam after scam. We have, like it or not, we have blood feuds being imported where like now you have to have an opinion about Somaliland. My God, you know, in my life, as I get older, I'm trying to have fewer opinions. And now I have to know the difference between Somalia and Somaliland. And then you look at the Minnesota flag, which is, is obviously tied to Somalia. That, that again is the worst of all worlds. So if we're gonna, if we're gonna do it, then, then we should, we should do it as an empire.

• 29:08Tucker Carlson?

  So what does the future look like? What do the next three years look like? So you saw the president saying, you know, this worked, we're going to do it in a bunch of other countries.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Well, the the future generally versus empire building are two different things because I think the future we're we're on a pathway with the transhumanism.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  The there's a fork in the road about humanity and what what it even means to be a human. So that is a whole other different discussion. But if you mean geopolitics, for example, I think that we're going to continue to see these kinds of targeted strikes. Now, the danger is that

• 29:46Tucker Carlson?

  Whose aim is what? To remove the leadership of the country and replace it with a pro American?

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, to put to, you know, plop one guy out, put somebody else in. And if you do in places like Latin America, I actually think you can do it. I mean, Trump started talking about Columbia, the Mexican cartel. That's the the strange thing about all this is that the everybody says, well, why don't we do Mexico? When Mexico is a full narco state, they have controls of border towns in the US. It's a completely

• 30:16Tucker Carlson?

  They have control of Arizona, don't they?

• 30:19Speaker 02

  If you talk to the the Turning Point guys, then they have some pretty strong opinions about Katie Hobbs and how she got in. So what would a war with a cartel? It's a different, it's a whole different

• 30:31Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Pandora's box from opening there. But if you can remove Maduro, you can remove a few people. You're you're sending a message to people, which is so here. So here's where here's why I disagree with the neo con model. And I think there's like a right, a right wing worldview that's coherent. And it goes like this, the neo con, according to the neo con model, everyone is just a madman. They're just mad men everywhere. And Pakistan, though

• 31:01Tucker Carlson?

  They hate us for no reason.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  They just they're just mad men and they're not rational actors. Putin's a madman, Putler. That's that's the whole worldview of just the neo cons and the neoliberal establishment. Putin's a madman. And I'm like, well, I don't know. He's 70. I read a lot about Russian history with the oligarchs had taken over the country after Yeltsin left. You needed a strong man to come in. He brought the oligarchs to heel. The oligarchs were like looting the country. And you, you look at him and you're like, this is, you can call him evil. That's a moral question. But somebody being evil is different from whether somebody's a rational or an irrational actor. Putin is, is acting in a way that I, in my opinion, is quite predictable.

• 31:40Tucker Carlson?

  He's the most rational actor in the world.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  And

• 31:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, of course.

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Then you look at the, the mullahs and you just say, they want to have their fiefdoms. They don't want high IQ people in Iran, even they're trying to get rid of as many high IQ people as they possibly can. This was funny. Actually, I was at a dinner. There's a Persian diaspora in, in Orange County and, and you know, LA.

• 32:02Tucker Carlson?

  Huge.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know, not just Jewish and you know, the secular and the Muslim. And I was talking to this, they're just like a good looking couple, very well educated, smart. And I go, how did the, how did you guys get out of Iran? You know, it was like one of those things where I thought I knew something, but I was revealed my own ignorance. I said, how did you guys get out of Iran? He goes, oh, he goes, you get, um, and people on Twitter called me a liar for this too, which is like so annoying. But he goes, no, no, you basically they give you IQ tests. And if you're a high IQ and you're too high IQ, they let you get educated. They want you out of the country because high IQ people have too much of a revolutionary risk. So that, that there shows you that.

• 32:41Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's why we legalize marijuana. Same, same idea.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Right. So that, that's the, I see the mullahs under a different model than the neo cons do. And I view them as they want to have their little fiefdoms.

• 32:53Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  They want to govern over the ashes. So yeah, obviously we don't want them to have, become a nuclear power or whatnot. But that doesn't mean you have to go in and go to war with them because, oh no, any day now they might just do something like crazy, right? That, and I think that, I think that's like the right wing position is you see people, you, you remove the moralize, the moral, which most people can't do. Most people. They want to say the mullahs are evil. Sure. Nobody hates the mullahs more than the Persian diaspora.

• 33:22Tucker Carlson?

  And of course.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Nobody hates them more. So this whole idea that they're not, it was like, sure, they're evil. But then the minute you talk about an evil person engaging in rational activity, then they're like, oh, wow. So you support evil. You know, God.

• 33:34Tucker Carlson?

  I've lived this.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 33:36Tucker Carlson?

  Right. Then you're dealing with someone who shouldn't be involved in the conversation because they're not capable of like thinking clearly. Here's my concern. I agree with, I think your analysis is absolutely right. I mean, talk to the Gulf states. You think they like the mullahs? No, they despise them, but they don't want to see them regime change necessarily because what comes next? The only country that wants that is Israel and not even Israel. It's Bibi. It's specifically Netanyahu and some of his supporters want that. And they're putting enormous pressure on the administration to do it. And my one, my biggest concern about what just happened in Venezuela is that will be seen as a template for Iran. Like, let's just take out, you know, the religious leadership of Iran or the political leadership or the military leadership.

• 34:22Tucker Carlson?

  And like, everything will go as well as it did in Venezuela. And, you know, maybe that's true. But if it's not true, the stakes are high. No?

• 34:29Speaker 02

  Well, that's why people have to have a

• 34:33Speaker 02

  a definition of what victory looks like, because victory for the United States looks different than victory from other people. So, and this is where I think people, people like lose the plot a little bit. So it's in, it might be in the interest of some countries for there to be chaos. Because if there's chaos and those people, you can kind of go in, you don't have to worry about it. It's the interest of the United States for there not to be chaos.

• 35:00Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  That's, well, we say, we say of course, but nobody says it, you know?

• 35:04Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I do constantly. Chaos is not in our interest.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so it's in our interest that if we do do regime change, that we don't have, we don't have chaos. We do want to have a moral leadership and moral clarity. And we do want to keep things, you know, on the right path. And then other people have different interests and it's just up to us to keep pushing for the orderly, the orderly governance of the world via American imperialism.

• 35:30Tucker Carlson?

  Well, wasn't that long ago that many Americans thought they were inherently safe from the kinds of disasters you hear about all the time in third world countries? A total power loss, for example, or people freezing to death in their own homes. That could never happen here. Obviously, it's America.

• 35:45Tucker Carlson?

  People are recalculating, unfortunately, because they have no choice. The last few years have taught us that. Remember when the power grid in Texas failed in the dead of winter? Yeah, it happened, and it could happen again. So the government is not actually as reliable as you'd hope they would be. And the truth is, the future is unforeseeable. And things do seem to be getting a little squirrely. So if the grid does go down, you need power you can trust. Last Country Supply's newest product is designed for exactly that. The Grid Doctor is a 3,300-watt battery backup system that will power full-size appliances, medical devices, and tools with clean, reliable power. It's even EMP-protected. That means it's shielded from lightning, solar flares,

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• 37:13Speaker 07

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• 37:45Tucker Carlson?

  But undergirding all of that is the belief that the point of the US government is to serve the interests of American citizens, correct?

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Well, of course.

• 37:53Tucker Carlson?

  Well, not of course, because I, I mean, the foreign policy leadership that I've grown up with and that I know personally, that's not even in the top five.

• 38:01Speaker 02

  Well, these are people that they want to play toy soldiers. That's a whole, that's the neoliberal order, the neoconservative order. I think neo, I think we, we focus too much maybe on neocons and the neoliberals who have probably done as much or, or more. The, if you look at the Biden foreign policy poking, you know, poking Russia and moving NATO, that was all neoliberalism. And they, they're just too rich, I guess, and bored and want to play checkers and chess with other people's lives. But the, the Trump view is that we're, we're starting from the American position. Gas prices are down. Oil from Venezuela,

• 38:43Speaker 02

  like we need it. We have a deficit that we're never going to pay back. Like, if you, if you take a step back and you just embrace it all, you, so people always ask me how I feel and I go, well, I, I go from optimism to despair in a, in a split second. Because if you, if you look at the national debt, we're not going to pay that. There's no way to pay it back. It's impossible. There's no, there's no way to pay it back. So what happens? Do we hyperinflate our currency? Do we default on our debt? Trump is going to try resource extraction. So we get Venezuelan oil. We drive down costs here. We get cheap energy here. Well, apparently AI will lead to maybe some kind of deflation. Who knows?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  People have their own opinions on that. That's still being hotly contested. And in that way, imperialism can be a win-win because the Venezuelans can be better off. We extract our share of it. Maybe, maybe that's utopia. Maybe that's pie in the sky, but that-

• 39:43Tucker Carlson?

  What's the other answer?

• 39:45Speaker 02

  The, the, I mean, the other answer is more, the other answer is like, dude, Charlie Kirk was assassinated. Charlie, some guy was just at JD Vance's house in Colum- Colum- or Cincinnati, banging on the window, maybe shooting at it. All the details aren't there. The, the alternative is, is a, it's like a Bolshevik revolution. The alternative is anarcho-tyranny, which is what we already have under Democrat rule. And-

• 40:15Speaker 02

  That's really bad. The alternative is if we don't, if we don't fix it, you're going to have more class resentment. We do have a neo Bolshevik movement in the United States on a bash Marxist. When the Maduro thing happened, it was interesting. You saw the Brandon Johnson, Chicago's mayor, Mayor Karen Bass, who was in Africa while the Palisades was burning. She was taking some kind of vacation. Mandami and they're all sort of with Maduro. So you have this global Marxist movement, which is, you know, the red, green alliance, which gets tossed around. But some of the stuff these guys say in the think tanks have actually, if you read into it enough, I think a lot of that really is accurate. So you have this red, green alliance of third world thinking

• 40:58Speaker 02

  with neo Bolshevism or Marxism, however people want to characterize it. And they do not have a good plan for the US. They want to, they want to loot it. They want to destroy it. They have a deep hatred for whatever reason of white people. White people of European descent are just absolutely hated, hated by all of these forces. So

• 41:20Tucker Carlson?

  And not just by them, by the neo cons.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  We don't

• 41:22Tucker Carlson?

  Hate Europeans too, for some reason. I'm not exactly sure why, but Christians, I feel like kind of everyone, that is my frustration with all this talk of antisemitism, which I oppose. This speech saying why I oppose it on Christian grounds, I am sincerely opposed to antisemitism and racism and hating anybody on the base of his blood. I'm just opposed to it against my religion. But like, the main form of institutionalized hate is not antisemitism, it's anti white hate in the United States. And like, why does nobody say that?

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Well, the, I mean, I remember with police and fire hiring, that was in the 80s where if you're a white male, Adam Carolla talked about that before, where he tried to be a firefighter.

• 42:05Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  And they just said, well, you're, you're, you're a white man.

• 42:07Tucker Carlson?

  How about JP Morgan? Same thing. It's in every part of American society.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  So yeah, the, the white man has been, the white man, that's a funny way of putting it, but white men have been hated for decades. And then they've been the world's punching bag, until of course, you need a Delta Force mission, they post a picture and it's all jacked white guys with a few Latinos and

• 42:28Tucker Carlson?

  Always has been.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  With tattoos and, and you think, well, these, the whole generation was, was hollowed out. And you, you just do not see, and for me, that's a litmus test for 2028, is anyone Who runs for president but won't specifically condemn anti-white hate by name is not even in

• 42:48Tucker Carlson?

  Well, J D Vance just did that.

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Not even the, you're not even in the mix because if you.

• 42:54Tucker Carlson?

  Could you see Ron DeSantis saying, calling out anti-white hate by name?

• 42:59Speaker 02

  DeSantis is an interesting, I, I think he would have three or four years.

• 43:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I totally agree.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  His, his evolution, his evolution has been, he lost, he lost, um, he needs to listen to people like Chris, Christina Pushaw more.

• 43:18Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  The, the problem I noticed a lot of people.

• 43:21Tucker Carlson?

  Gets sucked into donor world.

• 43:22Speaker 02

  They, they get in the West Palm Beach, they get around the riches and I've, I've seen that happen to a lot of people is you, you just, you cannot spend, whether it's the tech guys or the finance guys, the West Palm Beach people, Silicon Valley people, can't spend too much time around the riches, man. They're, uh,

• 43:40Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  They're not, they're not, they're not living in reality. They have all these weird pet projects that don't have any kind of connection to downstream reality.

• 43:50Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  They're glib and out of touch and they, they're gonna, they're gonna steer you aside. You have to just stay with, you have to just stay with the people, man. You gotta stay with the people.

• 44:00Tucker Carlson?

  So Ken Griffin is not a reliable bellwether of American public opinion?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  He bought this like, he bought this, uh, I think Tyrannosaurus Rex fossil or something for $75 million. Yeah. People who, people who are like, I have so much money that I just want a dinosaur fossil or dinosaur skeleton in my atrium might, might not be the people you want to take political advice from.

• 44:25Tucker Carlson?

  No, probably the last people. So do you think DeSantis is obviously going to run in the primary, you think?

• 44:32Speaker 02

  DeSantis, Cruz, it's going to be an open field because there always is because that's how they get media time and sell books and everything. But the.

• 44:42Tucker Carlson?

  What do you think it'll look like?

• 44:43Speaker 02

  The, the table, the table, the table. Well, one is it depends if we get. Depends what happens in midterms and how many impeachments Trump gets hit with if they can't keep the midterms, although Elon's back in the game, so maybe, maybe Republicans keep the midterms, but I think, I think they, if, if with Elon, you can, with Elon's money, you can. And it's just, that's a sad thing to say, but that's just, again, that's may, maybe like, that's where it goes back to like, I'm an, I'm a pragmatist, not an idealist. Get money out of politics. Okay. Well, that's nice. Um, no, we need to get, we need to basically, like, it's funny, because I, all my friends are pro Israel, basically. And my advice to them is, has been like singular. One, you need, guys, you need to just calm

• 45:28Speaker 02

  down, because the anti Semites are so moronic right now, just let them talk, because everything they say is off putting to anyone with a high IQ. But if you come with rancor, then that's just, you're, you're muddy in the field. And I go to us, just be like Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller likes Israel a lot, wants Israel to prosper and everything. But when people think of Stephen Miller, all they think about is this guy's amazing. You know, like, Stephen Miller wakes up trying to do things for America. And then if you do that, we don't really care what Israel does, or at least I don't. Um, most of us wouldn't, or, or if, there would be certainly less rancor around it. And if they would just

• 46:11Speaker 02

  fund things, then everybody would be better off. So Elon, he just writes huge checks. And if that side wrote bigger checks, for Republicans to just be Republicans. That's what, that's what I've been telling them. It's like, oh, look, you're gonna get 80, 90% of what you want. If you just keep Republicans in the House, you're gonna get that. The alternative for you guys is AOC and Mondami and all these other people versus people like me, who are just realistic and pragmatic about it. And, and people like JD, who's like, who's the same thing, he's just, he's a pragmatist. You got to accept that, you, you just got to accept that not everybody is going to be an ideologue. About it, but you can still win without people being out of lucks.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  You can win, which is good old, good old fashioned alliances where you help out, you pitch in.

• 46:57Tucker Carlson?

  So you don't see the Trump coalition is so broken, so fractured because I do think the neo cons are intentionally breaking it because they want to keep JD from becoming.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  I don't think it's working though. I mean, I'm old.

• 47:07Tucker Carlson?

  You don't think it's working.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  I'm old head from 2015. This is all a repeat of 2015. It's a repeat of the DeSantis when he ran in the primary. Same talking points at the same people playing the same kind of games. So I don't, um, I just see it as this is the third season of

• 47:28Speaker 02

  2015, 2022, 2023, and now, now it's back again. So I don't see it and the, the way the politics lines up on this stuff, especially in like 2028 is you got to look at it as the, there's just not, there's the problem. You know, I gotta, I always want to be careful what I say is that not because I'm like afraid of me canceled because I've been, I mean, I've been through the wringer a thousand times, but the

• 47:58Speaker 02

  they have, the people who really see Israel as a key issue just need to understand that, hey, man, you're going to get like most of what you want. But if you take, take it so that we can't win in 2028 with a Republican because you create so much acrimony and division and suppress the vote. Then you're going to get a bad Democrat. You're going to get a bad Democrat and you're going to get maybe a bad Democrat Congress. So people need to not, not behave in this kind of way that's because it's not helpful. I just think of things like politics. Am I being, I'm being helpful to the country? And I've been, I'm being helpful for 2026 to 2028. And I think that's how everybody. Needs to view the map like, are you, are you being helpful?

• 48:43Speaker 02

  Like, are you going to get what you want if you continue to behave this way?

• 48:48Tucker Carlson?

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• 49:28Tucker Carlson?

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• 49:47Speaker 05

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 50:17Speaker 08

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• 50:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it depends what you want. So if you run around calling people Nazis, the chance that you're gonna convince them to become Nazis is pretty high. I mean, that's just very obvious if you're doing that. And so maybe they want more Nazis.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  There's a, there's a segment of people, but it's much smaller. The

• 50:55Tucker Carlson?

  It's the lab segment?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  It's, well, if you want, if you want, if the incentive structure is different. So if you're in media, and you want to maximize a certain kind of

• 51:10Speaker 02

  sales funnel, where they get as many people as they can, as many eyes on them, that they want to be acrimonious and they want to throw bombs, because that, that's the business, right? But if you're more political, you want to think about, like, how is, how is this gonna help us achieve an agenda, right? How, how is this going to help the country? How is this gonna help them get what they want? That, that's what I'm trying to see. I'm just trying, we had this alliance that won in 2024, the popular vote, which I knew Trump was gonna win. We have mutual friend, actually, I'll tell you, I'll tell you when we stop, um, when we stop filming, but he was so blackpilled about the election.

• 51:52Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  And I said, no, he's gonna win. We'll know that night. He's gonna, Trump's gonna win. We're gonna know that night. He goes, crazy. I go, I promise you, promise you. And election night, I was like, wow, who told everybody? The only thing I didn't see is, I didn't think we were gonna win the, we, you know, I didn't think Trump was gonna win the popular vote. So we have this alliance. We have

• 52:15Speaker 02

  Maha. You have the OG, like, MAGA people, the, you know, the wild energy. They brought in, there was always this boisterous male energy, but then they brought a bunch more of that in. Then you had the, the post October, I don't think Trump wins if October 7th doesn't happen, to be honest. And I said this at the time, because when, when October 7th happened, they realized, oh, this is, this is what the left really is, right? And I do think a lot of them weren't, a lot of the pros really people were not paying attention to what the left kind of had become. And, because I remember I would talk about the Red Green Alliance, and people's eyes were sort of like glazed over, like, let's, you know, that sounds stupid. And

• 52:57Speaker 02

  So you have, you have the post oh seven people, you have the, they don't want their kids trans, you have Maha, you have the nationalists, you have the populace, you get the tech guys, you get the wealth tax guys. So it's a coalition and everybody.

• 53:11Tucker Carlson?

  The rappers, the Salvadorans.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  The, yeah, the rappers, you have the Venezuelan, the Cubans, and it's a, it's a political coalition that has to be kept together. And I think every coalition partner needs to, to look out for others and some coalition partners can push for themselves more and lose sight of things. So in my opinion, you know, foreign policy and everything else has gotten too much attention. Maha hasn't gotten enough attention. RFK Junior has sort of done, done what he has. The domestic issues, there's only so much Trump can do because judges are blocking him. But that, that's another concern of mine is that domestic issues are getting blocked and then that's going to create fractures in the coalition. But I do think the.

• 53:55Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask though, if you, I'm, I'm, the reason I have such like a tepid, not interesting response to what happened two days ago is because I think it's like a pivot point in history and I don't fully understand what it means. So I don't want to get over my skis until I have a better sense of what I think it means. But, um, it is a totally new way of conducting diplomacy slash foreign policy slash military action. Like this is a new thing because Trump didn't dress it up with a lot of lying about democracy or human rights. He's like, no, we want the oil and like this guy's bad and we're taking him out and we're going to run it. Never, no one alive has seen anything like that before in the United States. So you wonder, and that's why I'm saying, I think we're,

• 54:38Tucker Carlson?

  for good or bad, fully in the empire stage of civilizational development. The republic stage is over. No one cares about Congress. So, no, just like, don't we care about the Roman Senate? I wonder like how long until that same governing style applies to domestic policy?

• 54:57Speaker 02

  Where? We lived it. We lived it, man. Like, we lived it under Biden.

• 55:01Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you're right. You fleshed that out?

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Like, people forget, we lived in, like, people like me lived in hell. Ricky Vaughn was a, I remember when Douglas Mackey was arrested.

• 55:09Tucker Carlson?

  What a good man.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  Raided in Florida, chased down with guns. I followed all these court cases of the, the Blacks for Trump guy was chased down by unidentified FBI agents. They just started chasing him down with a gun because they obviously wanted to initiate a shootout and gaslight him into a shootout.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Thousand-plus J sixers, people who committed at most misdemeanor trespass or roundup. We, we lived under anarcho-tyranny. Lake and Riley's murdered. We have murders happening. LA is again anarcho-tyr- for those who don't know, because you don't live on Twitter, thank God, God bless you, is, you know, I think, I forget who coined the phrase, the, the name escapes me, but you would know. And the idea is that if you're a law-abiding citizen, you live under a state of tyranny where you're going to need a jaywalking ticket.

• 55:53Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  But there can be a homeless encampment right next to the "don't walk" sign, but you're the one who's going to get the ticket while the encampment's there. And that's, that's what we, we lived under, an imperial dictatorship, where everybody was just like, oh yeah, like, when, like, have you talked to, have you, have you had, like, you talked to the kids yet? Everybody, Charlie, Posobiec, everybody had that conversation with the kids, which is like, hey, just so you know, like, daddy might be taken away for a couple of years and, you know, he's going to go away and if anybody, like, shows up, don't do anything. You know, because they might try to shoot you, they might want to put a flashbang grenade in, in the house, they might want to kill your kids in front of you. When, when they raided Michael Cohen's house, even though, you know, Cohen ended up turning up, what they did to him was, was just disgraceful. They were

• 56:37Speaker 02

  going through his daughter's iPads in front of him. This is wicked, spicy stuff. It just didn't get really any media coverage. Because it

• 56:46Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't even know they did that to

• 56:47Speaker 02

  No, no, that's one reason I think Cohen sort of it sort of broke him. They just took all the iPads out of the little kids' room and they were just like taunting him.

• 56:54Tucker Carlson?

  They threatened to send Don Genie to prison for the rest of his life for he didn't do anything.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  John Eastman, a respected member of the bar, constitutional law professor, disbarred in California. Jeffrey Clark, great career in law, big law, Kirkland and Ellis. They're trying to take his law license in DC. One, one thing after another, and it got almost no coverage and no attention because the media would cover it, downplay it, or they would, they would lie about it. And that was, that was like the world, dude, like I've had the conversation with my kids. They're too young to understand, like, I remember, like, because I don't have any money, like, I have no money. And people are like, well, you know, why don't you have any money? It's like, my family has all my money because I know that I could just be stripped of everything any day. The even, you know, even now that if you're a targeted regime, you could just like wake up, you're like, okay, well, I guess I'm fucked.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  And but on the other hand, you're just like, my God, how have I been boiled in the pot for this long? That I've just accepted that is the norm. And I think that's something that is, is a problem with all of us is we're just, we just took it for like, oh, Charlie Kirk. I remember Charlie Kirk at shop, I remember. Posobiec calls. He's like, dude, they killed Charlie. Everybody thought they would just kill somebody else first, but everybody knew they were going to kill somebody. Everybody knew it. This is how we live our life. Like, I live my life knowing I could be killed any day. I live my life under Biden knowing, well, you know, I could any day, anything, anything, something could happen.

• 58:23Speaker 02

  I know every day that I wake up just to a shit show of false, it doesn't, it just doesn't matter. That, that's the way that you live. And as, as like fucked up as it is, and, and the reason our people, I think, don't talk about it. Is you just, you have a certain ability, a stiff upper lip, you don't want to, you don't want to sound like a victim, but

• 58:44Tucker Carlson?

  That's exactly right.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  That's not, it's not like nor, it's like, it's a weird, it's like enraging in a way, like, no, this is not how it's supposed to be in America. Where you know that any given day, like you, you might be taken away from your children. Because of of politics and because of how rotten and corrupt everything is.

• 59:04Tucker Carlson?

  I I couldn't agree more. Obviously, I live a life exactly like the one you described. On the other hand, I think it's essential to cling to your nobility and refuse to become a victim and refuse to act like Seth Dillon or whoever, like constantly talking about, oh, the threat's against me. People are mean to me. Come on. You know, you chose to be in this. Just man up.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  He did, but he shouldn't have to.

• 59:25Tucker Carlson?

  No, I agree. No one should threaten Seth Dillon. I'm totally opposed to threatening him or anyone else. Just saying, like, talking about yourself is disgusting.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  But that's our problem, though. See, that's the that's how they got us in this catch 22, which is, well, nobody can complain because we're, you know, manly men and we're stoked. We take it out of the chain. We don't complain. But then they get away with everything and people go, wait a minute, you had to say, like, I think that most people, if you told them, oh, yeah, like, I remember when I was when Douglas Mackey got wrongfully arrested and charged for a crime he didn't commit, and it's been proven now he didn't commit the crime, that I remember sitting down with my kids and I go, hey, kids, I just, you know, want to let you know, you know, talk to my wife, hey, like, you know, here's your money. Here's where the money is, you know, it's all in like your name. I don't have

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  anything. And tell my kids, hey, kids, like, they might take daddy away, like, the bad guys might come and get daddy and, you know, it'll be okay and everything. Dude, that, if we don't talk about it, then nobody knows.

• 1:00:27Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  Right? So but we're like, well, I don't want to fucking cry. I'm a real man. I'm a da da da da. It's like, great. And then nobody knows. And then people get like, wait a minute, John Eastman, a distinguished law professor, wrote a memo that wasn't even acted on. He just lost his life, lost his position at Chapman, his standing in the world, even his law license, his ability to like, earn a living. This is like, this is what is happening. So we do need to bitch more. To be honest, that's our problem. That's the exploit. And whatever our DNA is, or whatever our operating software is, or whatever our genetics is, that's our exploit, is we just sort of, you just take the hits. You take the hits, you endure the weight of life.

• 1:01:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, dad doesn't complain.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  That's what you do. And then they're, and then they take our country. And then they fuck us up like, one by one. So, I remember like, some guy showed up to Fuentes's place to kill him, and then ended up killing somebody else. Down the street, shows up, people are like, well, they didn't even know. It was like, because you're not supposed to talk about it, like.

• 1:01:25Tucker Carlson?

  And Fuentes, his credit, I mean, I gave him a chance to talk about it, and whatever you think of Fuentes, but he did not marinate in his victimhood at all.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, some loony goes up to Cat Turgeon's house, tries to get him, they go after Benny Johnson, they go after Seth Dillon, Candace Owens has had threats, Charlie Kirk gets killed. So I, I think it's, there, there's a way to, to talk about these, and that's why the Charlie Kirk thing really was a frustrating thing for me, because, well, I mean, it was a tragic thing, you know, like, frustrating, it sounds so like, shallow. Um, I, I just thought that people would realize, they're, they're like, they're hunting us for sport, all of us. Tucker, they're hunting you, if they could get Shapiro, they would get Shapiro. If they could get Walsh, they could get Walsh. If they could get Candace, they could get Candace.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  And it ain't the Israelis, and it ain't the Jews that are doing it, it's the violent, feral terrorists, you know, Bolshevik left. And they would get all of us if they could. So whatever acrimony we have, which is, like, I'm not a unity guy, I'm a guy who likes, you know, likes the mix, maybe too much. But it's like, dude, they're gonna kill us, they're gonna kill all of us. And we need to figure out, we need to figure out some kind of way to coexist with one another, understanding that the threat against us is existential, and they would, the, the left, if they could kill Seth Dillon, they'd be glad to kill him. If they could kill you, they'd be glad to kill you. To them, that's just another, another notch on their bell, they're a point on the scoreboard.

• 1:02:51Tucker Carlson?

  So what's, I mean, what's the administration doing about this?

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  That, I mean, that was, that was my problem with Trump's first term, is the political violence against Trump supporter, because again, we're just supposed to deal with it, just deal with it, was the completely, almost completely ignored during his first term.

• 1:03:09Tucker Carlson?

  Is it still being ignored?

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Under my definition, it is. Yeah, they're arresting some people. There's more happening than the first term, but the response is not what I would like to see.

• 1:03:23Tucker Carlson?

  So the claim when Charlie was murdered was that this was Antifa or some Antifa adjacent person or organization. I don't, I don't know if that's true. I don't know anything about it.

• 1:03:35Speaker 02

  I think it's absolutely true.

• 1:03:36Tucker Carlson?

  Uh, I don't know that, but, and I don't have any other theories. I just, I don't even understand the story, but, but if people said it was true, so like, okay, where's the round of Antifa?

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  So there are.

• 1:03:50Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, you got a dog sneezing right there.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  That's good. Good. The good puppy. So the, no, I'm, I'm a, I mean, I think it was Tyler Robinson. I think a 22 year old man on a mission is a very dangerous thing. And that I, I think that there were other people in those Discord servers and there were people tweeting something big is going to happen tomorrow and after tomorrow Charlie won't be around anymore. So I'm very frustrated that there doesn't seem to be much interest in, maybe those people were just guessing, or maybe they were trolling, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in finding out who the, who those other people were.

• 1:04:29Tucker Carlson?

  Why do you think?

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  That's.

• 1:04:31Tucker Carlson?

  That doesn't make any sense to me.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  I always, I always go back to the Garland, Texas mass shooting, which is, to me, this is like the skeleton key of it all. So Pamela Geller, who's very much pro-Israel, about as hardcore as you can be on the issue, did a draw Muhammad contest and there was going to be a bunch of other people also like very pro-Israel and Jihadi was going to shoot the place up. The, he, it was Texas and he got taken out, but by accident of faith, or an accident of fate, a local law enforcement officer pulled over an FBI agent who was fleeing the scene, got the guy's phone and the, the text message to the Jihadi said, tear up Texas.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Sounds unbelievable. It's a hundred percent true. Senator Grassley has asked for information twice from Ray and Garland, has been stonewalled. I don't know why Cash Patel won't release it. I've asked everybody up as high up the food chain as you can get, why we can't get it. And

• 1:05:31Tucker Carlson?

  And what's the answer?

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  My, my belief is that there's that MKUltra never ended, COINTELPRO, MKUltra was of course the mind control experiments they conduct on people where the, the book Chaos covered this in great detail for people who are curious about that.

• 1:05:46Tucker Carlson?

  About the Charles Manson murders?

• 1:05:48Speaker 02

  The Manson murders and then there was that Air Force guy who was drugged up and killed somebody and that didn't even make sense. And I didn't even know about that. Well, that book was completely mind blowing. And I do think they still have whatever arm of that is, whether that's within the FBI or some other dark site within the intelligence community. I, I'm certain that that, that that still exists. So because of that, you don't get, you don't get, you're not going to get any information about that because I do think there would be some kind of dark op. Because what a lot of people, again, it's just, the title of the book shows the agenda. It's just chaos. Get, get everybody afraid, get everybody panicked, usher in more surveillance technology, usher in a surveillance state,

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  bring in anarcho tyranny where if you're law abiding, everything you do is monitored by flock and all these camera, traffic cameras, everything you do is monitored. But if you're a drug addict on the street, you, you have free rein. You do anything you want. This was the Bolshevik method. There was a Solzhenitsyn quote, Alexander Solzhenitsyn quote, where it went, I don't have the exact quote, but the substance of it was, your punishment for having a knife was different for the thieves. When you had a knife, it was terrorism. When the thief had it, it was just his way of life. And that's what we're living under now with the modern anarcho tyranny.

• 1:07:09Tucker Carlson?

  So what do they have in common? Like, why does this same phenomenon reoccur?

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's the battle, the, the battle between people say good and evil, but you would just say like logos and chaos, logos, the divine order, the order of God, the unison of people, the fellowship of people versus the chaos and the acrimony, the evil of the, the dark one, Satan demons, every, every religious tradition has a.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  Even dualistic religions or polytheistic religions have chaos gods, right? So even if you're not monotheistic, which I'm monotheistic, obviously, but everybody has had those, the chaos agents. So chaos is destroying the divine order and the divine communion of people.

• 1:07:59Tucker Carlson?

  So you don't see this as political battles, but as manifestations of a spiritual battle?

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, it's a spiritual, yeah, the political is what you see. The spiritual is what you talk about and then people will make fun of you and say you're crazy.

• 1:08:12Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think they make fun of you anymore, do they?

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  Much less so.

• 1:08:15Tucker Carlson?

  So you had a tweet about this yesterday, I think.

• 1:08:20Tucker Carlson?

  Here's your tweet. If you were a demon with dominion over the planet and you wanted to increase the amount of human suffering across the world, you would eliminate the white population.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that.

• 1:08:33Tucker Carlson?

  So you see, you see what's happening, the, the death of whites, their mass, massive contraction as a racial group globally, you see that as a manifestation of the spiritual war?

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  Ireland really is the Rosetta Stone, I think, in all of this.

• 1:08:48Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  Because you can, again, even if right or wrong, you could at least rationalize Rhodesia was an evil apartheid state and they had to give it over to Mugabe and it became Zimbabwe. But you know what? They did the right thing and had a bad outcome.

• 1:09:02Tucker Carlson?

  Or South Africa for that.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  I don't agree with that, but you could, there's a chain of logic. Okay, they did the right thing, they ended apartheid, it led to a bad result, maybe they could have transitioned it better, but there's an A to B to C thing there, right? Ireland, they were colonized by the, the white Irish were colonized by the white British. They were starved, their resources were plundered, they had the potato, they had the potato famine. They lived like-

• 1:09:27Tucker Carlson?

  Their churches were desecrated.

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  Churches were desecrated, they were an enslaved people, but they have to be punished.

• 1:09:33Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I agree.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  Why do the Irish, right, to me, that's, if people think that tweet sounds crazy or any of this is crazy, then you have to tell me, why the, why do the Irish have to pay restitution? And that, that gives up the whole game, gives up the whole game.

• 1:09:49Tucker Carlson?

  So this is a manifestation of the spiritual war, the destruction of whites.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then why that is, I don't know yet. I'll still unravel it, but you can't, you can't deny it. When you look at Ireland and you look what is happening, we look what's happening globally. You look what is happening in the US and has been happening for decades. But again, that goes back to, well, you don't want to talk about how you could be killed any day. And that's just something you live with. And I just live with it, knowing that at any moment I could be gone, removed one way or another.

• 1:10:25Tucker Carlson?

  How does that change the way you live, that knowledge?

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  The you, when you know, when you know, it's like, it's like memento mori. So the, the arrogance or whatever, the, cause I pretend to be arrogant on the internet sometimes, but people who know me sort of find that kind of funny. But the, there's a, there's one, there's like a deep weight that you carry, just a deep weight, where you know that what you do has consequences and you need to really focus on doing the right thing. It has consequences for yourself and the country, because if we do lose, the amount of human suffering is going to be immeasurable in the US and globally.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  It's like, and it's in it. When you read about the Haldomore, you read about the Cambodian genocide, you read about the, the Gulags, it's just a scale of human suffering beyond, beyond human understanding. And we're the remaining bulwark against it. So you're, you're just left with a sense of like, and then you're, you're, um, like I have, I have a thing, kind of a bit I do online, although it's really true. It's I have like, I have a war on fun. So you don't get to have fun. Like, I don't get to have fun. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy my life. It doesn't mean that I don't have a cigar and mountain bike and do other things. But I just, I don't get to have fun. That's not the cards to me. I don't get to have fun. I have to live like a serious person. Who knows? I could be killed, that my friends could be killed.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  In the case of Charlie, your friend will be killed, that even people like Sudden them, that I may not see eye to eye with, like they could get killed, that any of us that could be killed on any given day. And so in a way, it's like being in, it's not being in a combat zone in a way, but it is a way of, it is a form of warfare. So I just, I don't get to like have fun. I don't, I don't get to like goof off or live.

• 1:12:17Tucker Carlson?

  So it gives your life meaning in some ways.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  It gives, it gives your life, it, yeah, meaning is a complicated subject, but it gives your life a, you certainly have a purpose, right? Where you know that, and this is true of everybody or how people should live is, what you do does have significance and consequence and you do have to, you do have to make it count.

• 1:12:41Tucker Carlson?

  That sounds, I mean, in some ways worse, but in most ways better than living without that knowledge that it could end.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  Well, that, that's the meaning, that's the meaning kind of paradox. I think that's why some people call it the meaning crisis. And then before that Jonathan Haidt wrote a book, The Happiness Hypothesis, and meaning is this concept where if you chase meaning, you can't find meaning. But you find meaning by living in a certain way. And then you go, oh, this is, so like this is meaning. So I give you, I have these weird, it's like a hyper reality.

• 1:13:14Tucker Carlson?

  You just did a film on this. I should, I should.

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  We're working on it. Yeah, we're in post, we're, yeah, so a couple of months.

• 1:13:21Tucker Carlson?

  Explain this through that lens.

• 1:13:22Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, the, you know, you get, when you get older, you want to do things that are interesting and hard. And I think doing a movie on the meaning of life is about, is about as hard as it can get, right? And there, so you would say like, well, what is the meaning of life? Which I've asked everybody and, you know, people have their own answers, but sometimes it's good to sort of attack it from the inverse, which is what would be a meaningless life? A meaningless life would be all this suffering of yourself and others, all the human suffering. It was just the way it is. We were just animals and we were bred by some kind of alien species to harvest gold.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  And if people got harmed or genocided or whatever, that was just, there's no reckoning at the end. That, that to me gives me nightmares to think there's no reckoning or no, so then you would say, well, that would be meaningless. Okay, that's, I'm chasing whatever that is. So then you start to think of meaning. What is that? Well, meaning is communion with God is a catharsis. It's that whatever it was, whatever, you know, there's a saying like, the only way out is through. It was like, whatever this is, that you're going to get through it. And there is a divine evening out of everything. And that everything did have a point and everything did matter. And everything happened for a reason,

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  not because you're a actor who doesn't have agency, but because it was part of, it's part of the ride. So like, I got chunks taken out of me. There's no, like, there's, you have that chunks. Everybody has, you know, again, we're not supposed to talk about it because we're so, you know, macho macho men. But like, I think, I'm like, sometimes I'm just like, dude, I'm tired, man. Like, it is just, like, having to live like that, especially under the Biden regime, I am the censorship regime where, as an adult man, you can't even say what you believe, because your whole livelihood would be destroyed. You might not be able to have a bank account, right? That, that was like, the way you kind of lived. And you have chunks taken out of you. And to think that that was for nothing, right? Like, losing, which is how meaning ties into,

• 1:15:32Speaker 02

  I think, the, the political melee is, losing would be the most meaningless thing in the world. There's this painting somebody posted, and I'm, and we get it reproduced in, in, um, oil painting. And it's of when the Bolsheviks took over the palace at the Bolshevik Revolution. And it just shows this, it just fills me with this, like, rage. You're just staring at evil. And I look at, like, this is what losing looks like. Losing looks like you're lined up next to your kids. And they start shooting you, but the kids don't die right away. So they bayon at your kids in front of you. That's what losing looks like. People, people used to say, oh, Serbitch, you're crazy. That sounds crazy. I remember they say that 2015, 2016. Oh, you're so hyperbole.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  Now, everybody, that's what losing looks like. Losing doesn't mean, oh, you're going to have a wealth tax and you're going to have to pay a little bit more taxes. Losing is, you are lined up in the basement and they are killing your kids in front of you. That, that is what, like, losing is. Well, to me, that's meaningless. To me, that's the antithesis of, like, whatever the meaning of life is. So the connection between Really? Meaning and, what do you mean?

• 1:16:43Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't know. I mean, the basis of Christianity is this guy Christians believe was God, who came down and then like got brought up on false charges and tortured to death, but that.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  He did that so we didn't have to. He took on the burden. A lot of people take the Christ martyrdom as some kind of message that we should become martyrs. And I always say, there's been one martyr. Christ died on the cross. I ain't dying on the cross. I ain't a martyr. Christ did that and he took on the sins of mankind. And he did that for us. I'm not, I'm not here to be crucified and take on, take on the sins of mankind. That, that's not me. If anything, it was almost, it's almost like egotistical to think that I should, you know, that I should be a martyr and that that would be, that would be a way to go. So I reject martyrdom theology fully.

• 1:17:36Tucker Carlson?

  Interesting.

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:37Tucker Carlson?

  So what, so what is the meaning? If the meaning is not getting lined up against the wall with your kids?

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  The meaning is communion, divine communion. Meaning is divine communion. Everything is divine communion. The-

• 1:17:50Tucker Carlson?

  Interacting with God?

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  Interacting with God in the downstream, the communion of people. So I'll have these moments of like hyperreality where I'm like wrapped up in my own bullshit and oh, you know, what if I did this and you know, in your own head. And then I'm on the couch with my kids and there's just like a moment of like stillness and never lasts. There's just like moment of like stillness.

• 1:18:13Tucker Carlson?

  Not when you have four, it doesn't last.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  No. Well, and my own bullshit fucked up brain too. You know, like a lot, you know, there's a lot of us, we make prisons of our own mind, right?

• 1:18:23Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  And we, the demons steal our joy. You're just, you're having a moment and then they're like,

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  what about this? Their deep state's coming for you or you know, one, one thing after another and- There's just these moments of like stillness. And you go, this is what it's about, you know, the, but that's as because of our primitive brains or whatever our problems are, probably because we're not in the Garden of Eden. Is we, we just can't maintain divine connection. The monks can, but it's a great aesthetic. I always get that word wrong, asceticism. I always get that bad, yeah, I'm bad with my asceticism. And, but they have, it's a constant effort, you know, that's why, you know, the

• 1:19:06Tucker Carlson?

  But they're living on a pillar of salt or in a cave.

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And it's like the arrow prayer is like, God, you know, Jesus Christ have mercy on me. I'm a set, you know, you have to constantly be connected with the divine. And then lean into your heart more to distract us from the egoism, which, but you have to have some kind of egoism if you live in the world. You can't just not participate in the world. So there's this tension between divine connection, which means surrendering yourself to the full presence of God, right? Versus.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  Okay, but I have to like pay my bills, dude, you know, like I have to, I have to make my way in this world. Then dear, those are constantly a tension, but then something, and this is probably why there's a more of a rise for like Eastern Orthodoxy and, and older religious, religious traditions and Christianity as the, and, and I love Protestants, so no, no offense to the Protestants, but Protestantism is very, well, it's very waspish, waspish, it's like by the book. The Bible says this and like, here's the scriptures and it's very much of the mind. Christian apologetics. Oh, well, you think this is there the Trinity and it's like arguing back and forth, but you're like existing in mind.

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  Whereas the Eastern traditions, and by Eastern, I don't mean Hinduism, but even though Hinduism has a approach like this, but Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Christianity is also about the, the knowledge of the heart and the tension that you feel every day, like, uh, every day I'm, I just feel a great spiritual tension where I don't, like, if you asked me, are you going to go to heaven or hell, I'd say, I don't, God help me, I don't know. I don't know. Like, are you a good person or a bad person? God help me, I don't know. I, I don't, I don't know. I don't have a good answer to that. It makes it weird too, when like people go at you because you're just like, I don't even know if I'm going to defend myself. Maybe, you know, maybe I am, you know, like, what am I? And, and.

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  But you can find a certain amount of meaning in that. There's like a certain amount of meaning of confusion. Like, maybe that's how it was supposed to be that we are spirits in human bodies. Because if you, you know, if you read your old philosophy, there's debate of mind-body dualism. And there's, there's a sense that we've all had that, am I a body? Am I a mind? Well, God, we're both. We're, we are both. We're a mind and a body. And, or a spirit and a body. And there's going to be tension between this. That we, you know, we wrestle against the flesh. And so maybe that's the right answer. Maybe the right answer is to not be so sure that you're right and that you're such a righteous and holy person.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  And maybe the right answer is, I don't know. I honestly don't know.

• 1:21:47Tucker Carlson?

  Well, humility is always the right answer. You're not God.

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  But you can be proud of humility. You know, there's a great-

• 1:21:52Tucker Carlson?

  Of cour- well, of course.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  Benjamin Frank is one of the best, favorite writers. And he said, he, he would keep a list of the virtues. And he said, I was, I would, he, he said, I, I've achieved all virtues, but I found that I myself became proud of my humility. And I realized like, that was in me. So, so yeah, the, yeah, so there is, there is like a meaning crisis because there, that's why we have the opioid epidemic.

• 1:22:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  We have people, but even people who are successful drug overdose, or they blow up their family lives because they're, they're thinking, is this really all there is? Oh, I, I did the right things. And so even if you end up in a success, you're, you're still having those nights wondering-

• 1:22:31Tucker Carlson?

  Well, maybe especially. And maybe that describes the politics you were talking about earlier where a lot of a ruling class is just bored and let's, let's hurt people just to shake it up a little bit.

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think a lot of them are driven by demonic spirits. And those people, I think it's less of a, less of a meaning crisis and it's more of a, like an evil, an evil animating force.

• 1:22:53Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so how do you recognize that? What, there's gotta be a difference between just being wrong, which I have done many times, probably even today, and being animated by an evil spirit.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  The angel and demon on your shoulder. Yeah, I mean, that's where the that's where the discernment that people talk about so often is something that I think about every, you know.

• 1:23:17Tucker Carlson?

  So who do you, who do you look at from afar and perceived to be controlled by evil spirits?

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  Most, I mean, when I go to DC, although it felt a little bit, but it felt like I had exorcism recently. Is I remember you go to DC and you just feel you just, just like, what is this?

• 1:23:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  What is this demonic place? This place is the playground, playground of the demons. The whole, the whole place, the whole place, like just to name one person would be to not do justice. To the demonic forces at work in DC, even recently, if you look in the Department of Justice, have you ever looked at the occult artwork and at DOJ?

• 1:23:59Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  Now I'll show you some pictures.

• 1:24:02Tucker Carlson?

  At DOJ?

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  Next time you're at DOJ, go get a tour and go look at all the occult artwork and.

• 1:24:11Tucker Carlson?

  Why is there occult artwork at the Department of Justice? It shows, by the way.

• 1:24:16Speaker 02

  That's because it is because they take, they take their religion seriously. We might not take our religion seriously, but they take it seriously. The, the bad guys take their religion quite seriously. And they have, they have a religion. They have a God. Their God is in our God. Their God's the anti and the inverse of our God, but they absolutely have a religion. Their occult artwork is everywhere. The, it's mortifying and when you, when you get the tour, you can probably find the pictures online. So that's what we're, we're up, that's what we're up against.

• 1:24:45Tucker Carlson?

  What's on the dollar bill?

• 1:24:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, the, some of that, yeah, the cult symbolism is a complicated one because

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  like is we had Jonathan Pejose and it was interviewed for Meaning. And I was like, I'm like, ever since with ayahuasca, I'm like obsessed with what does the serpent mean? Because under the, kind of the mainline Protestant understanding, the serpent tempted Eve, the serpent is bad, the snakes are evil.

• 1:25:11Tucker Carlson?

  Serpent's not good.

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  It's more complicated than that. So, and he's an Orthodox Christian, so he, he wrote an article, "The Serpents of Orthodoxy," where he goes, because there's, there was a staff with two serpents moving around. There, you know, there's DNA, there was even before the, the double helix structure of DNA was discovered, there was two serpents wrapped around that was sort of, but was understood. Um, you know, ayahuasca, the cosmic serpent, a lot of people see serpents, and that, you know, that's a whole other-

• 1:25:43Tucker Carlson?

  You've seen serpents while doing ayahuasca?

• 1:25:45Speaker 02

  I felt, felt it like moving through me, just like flowing, flowing through me.

• 1:25:52Tucker Carlson?

  Serpents?

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  Snake, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:57Tucker Carlson?

  So that doesn't, I mean, I'm, I'm no shaman, but that doesn't sound good.

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  Well, that's what sent you on these like quests. So, so we wouldn't be having this conversation if I, because for one thing, you know, for Christians, ayahuasca is like strictly forbidden. So I don't, I don't want to seem like I'm glamorizing it in any way, shape or form, but that there was, I, you have gone on multiple ayahuasca journeys over the years. And for me, it's been completely transformed my heart. It's transformed how I see my children. It's the way, the way like interact with the world that got me interested in Christianity again, because, well, so the thing is, God can meet you wherever you are, right? Which is why there is good and evil. So it isn't to say there's no such thing

• 1:26:44Speaker 02

  as good and evil. But God, God can meet you wherever you are, and God, God can go anywhere and meet you wherever you are. So, in my case, I was not someone who, I never had any kind of faith, because I never felt anything. I would, I would go to church and I grew up very Christian, and I would like try to feel it. I was like, what do these people have? Like, there's just not, there's just isn't it. What is it that they feel? Like, is everybody in on something that I'm not in on? Is everybody faking? Like, I'm faking because I don't believe anything. And that was, because I had no, whatever, whatever sixth sense people have for God, I didn't have, I didn't have the God gene.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  And then I remember, you know, first time drinking tea and being catapulted to the spirit world. And I was like, okay, the spirit world is real. That's okay. That's not even up for debate now to the point where it doesn't even offend me when people are atheists who don't believe in. I was like, well, I didn't believe in it either. I had to see it with my own eyes. You know, Paul, he had to be knocked over.

• 1:27:50Tucker Carlson?

  Blinded, yeah.

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  He had. So for me, that was like my, my Paul moment where I was like, okay, well, somehow I ended up here drinking tea with no belief at all in God or the spiritual realm at all. And now I absolutely know it's real. And what, you know, went through a number of things. And, you know, I don't know if you want to go into all that, but.

• 1:28:11Tucker Carlson?

  I, I do. Like, why'd you do ayahuasca in the first place?

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  For the wrong reason, which was for the ride, you know, what was Hunter Thompson said, buy the ticket, take the ride?

• 1:28:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  So many people just sit around ruminating all day or daydreaming all day. Maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll do this. I've always been a just buy the ticket, take the ride. What's it like? Buy the ticket, take the ride. So I thought, well, I mean, I'd done a lot of things in life before, and I felt like I, I felt like I was pretty sure of myself that I knew how to live and was arrogant in a lot of ways. And I thought, well, you know, I've done everything else. Like, might as well just do ayahuasca, you know? By everything else, I don't mean drugs. I just mean, like, I was so full of myself and my own ego that I just thought I knew so much about life. And I was such a wonderful person that obviously I would just do this because that's what people who are so, you know, so great, so great do, right?

• 1:29:03Speaker 02

  I'm so great. I'll just do this like other thing. And it like broke my heart, broke my heart. Over and over again, the whole night, just like broke my heart. And so the way, the way it works.

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  Is your, you know, you drink the tea and you just kinda like look around, look how like I think that's a mistake. And then you sort of like, you kinda like start to fall under.

• 1:29:29Speaker 02

  And you venture to the spirit world, but you don't, it's not like you're here and I'm walking around, la la la, I'm in the spirit world. You're taken to a place where you have no free will. You have no power. You are more insignificant than an insect on this world. And you start to journey and, you know, experience various things. So, so one, I'll give you an example because it's kinda hard to explain, but I remember like I'm drinking the tea and, and sometimes you have like a little bit of a light show when you, when you go in, go into the spirit world, you hear like a buzzing sound like bees and then you see like a little bit of light,

• 1:30:11Speaker 02

  a little vapor on the side and like, and then you get the DMT sort of light show that people associate with a psychedelic experience. That's the least significant part of the night. But a lot of times you start to get the light show and you think, oh, okay, I'm, I'm into somewhere. But there's a sense of like, there's me and I'm in, I'm into something. And you, you know, you go through there and then you become completely disoriented. You, you wake up and you look, you know, where am I at first? Where am I? So I remember I, I woke up, I go, where, look around, because you know, you're laying down, you can't walk around, you're laying down. I look up and I go, where am I? Where am I? Where am I? I go, oh yeah, I'm Mike Cernovich and I'm in this place,

• 1:30:53Speaker 02

  I'm on this mat and I got dropped off and then I walked in here and I saw this person and then I came and I drank the tea. Okay, cool. So like you're reassuring yourself. Close my eyes. Wake up. Where am I? Oh, I'm Mike Cernovich. I'm in this room and I came in. Oh yeah, I got dropped off. I'm doing ayahuasca. Okay, cool. Okay, cool. Close eyes. Wake up. I'm Mike Cernovich.

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  Where am I? Close my eyes. Wake up. I'm, uh, where am I? Wake up.

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  What the fuck? Ah! Dead, dead. There is no I, dead, dead. Ah!

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  And as I'm falling down into like wherever I'm falling into, I see like my kids surface and my wife's surface. And I was, for all purposes, dead. I was overwhelmed with the feeling that I was dead. It's like, I'm dying, I'm dead. There was no I, I'm, there wasn't even an I who's experiencing, I'm dead. And then, like, all I could think of was like, are my kids gonna be okay? Is my wife gonna be okay? Are people gonna be okay? How was I so foolish? How was I so foolish? How, how, I was so, I remember, like, when I funded my kids' like, college fund,

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  I was like, okay, like, my kids are set, like, I can die, you know? Like, what do I need to be around for? Like, because I grew up poor, like, then you learn that's your own trauma and everything. I was like, okay, like, my kids are good, my wife's good, like, everybody's good. You know, everybody's good, I got, they're me taken care of. Whatever happens to me, you know, because part of this is like, you know, knowing that you could be killed or, or framed any day. And I'm like, okay, everybody, everybody be okay? And I remember I'm dying, I just heard a voice say, "You fool. You fool, they're not okay. They're not okay because of money? Because you set up money, like, no, they're not okay? Where, what is wrong with you?" And I was just left with the sense of,

• 1:33:03Speaker 02

  I just, I'm a fool and I live my life foolishly and I can't believe that I was such a fool. And I'm dead now, and it's like, too late. And then, eyes closed. And then I wake up and then I'm like, puking in a bucket, like, you know? So, they call like a spiritual purge. And I remember being like, oh, I'm still alive. I'm still alive. Like, looking around, you know, like, looking at this bucket, like, I'd never been, you know, everybody's afraid of throwing up on ayahuasca, I'm like, oh, you will, that will be the best part of the night. That will be the, you will be thanking God that you're alive, like, you know, throwing up in a bucket. And I was like, oh God, I'm alive. Okay, I'm alive, alive.

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  And then, but then that's just like, that was five minutes. That was just five minutes. And then you like, go back under and then it's like another thing. Another

• 1:34:02Speaker 02

  catharsis, like another like time loop. So I remember, I get up. And I look around and there's this woman walking around and she's carrying the buckets because people are throwing up and everybody's sick. And you have kind of the, the shaman guy or facilitator and then you have like the helper. And there's this person, you know, she's walking around and she's carrying a bucket, carrying, and I wake up and I look and I go, oh, there she is carrying the bucket. And then I close my eyes, you come back up, time loop. So time loop means like, I'm reliving this moment with you and I remember reliving this moment with you. But I'm like stuck in it like Groundhog Day. Time loop. And this first time it happened to me and that's a real like mind fuck. So I get up.

• 1:34:47Speaker 02

  Like, oh, she's like carrying things. Okay. She's cleaning up after people. And then I thought, you know, how nice. Fall, fall asleep, wake back up. I go, man, look, she's like so helpful and I couldn't do that. Like I couldn't clean up after puke on other people. I just, I don't know how they do this. And then I wake up and I'm in the time loop again. I'm like, what, what, like, why am I in this time loop? You know? And like, you start to feel like you're going insane. Like, why am I stuck in this time loop? And I close my, and I put up and it goes, said, you don't even know her name. You never introduced yourself to her. You didn't talk to her. You don't talk to people. You just look through people. You don't get to know people. You're so arrogant.

• 1:35:28Speaker 02

  This person is doing something you could never do because you don't have the humility. You're so, you could never clean up after other people. You don't give a shit. You don't give a shit. This, but you didn't even like look this person in the eyes and just say, like, hey, you know, what's your name? Like, how'd you, how'd you get here? You just came in here to drink your tea selfishly. Like the arrogant perk that you are. And because you wanted to take the ride, you know, you want to take the ride. And you're just a bad person. I was like, what the fuck? You know? And then So that was more or less my night.

• 1:36:03Tucker Carlson?

  And you see demons at one point?

• 1:36:05Speaker 02

  Over and over again. Oh, yeah, that was. So you can see demons. You can see demons. I remember being taunted. So.

• 1:36:15Speaker 02

  So that's what's weird about it is it's like. It's like scenes of a movie with generally there's a catharsis. You don't know. That's why they just say before you go in, they go. The only way out is through. You're like, I go fuck yourself. The only way out is through. What kind of shit is that? The only way out is through. What the fuck does that mean? You know? Again, that was my arrogance and my own delusion. And.

• 1:36:36Tucker Carlson?

  That's true in life, though.

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And I was just. And you're like, what does that mean? Well, it means that no matter how bad it is with the ayahuasca, I remember I would, I would. You know, I would do mask and then I would open up the mask and try to look around. And. A demon at whatever it is, entity. Says, oh, you think you can open your eyes? And it just showed me like the most fucked up things I'd ever seen. People being tortured to death, killed, like horror, like The Road. Have you ever seen the movie The Road?

• 1:37:05Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  Like a cannibal, like a horror film. And then it said, oh, you think you can take your eye mask off? You can't run. You're running from yourself. You're trying to run from yourself and you can never run from yourself. What am I running from? Then I'm like, what am I running from? What? What do you mean? I'm running? Because if you talk to me.

• 1:37:25Speaker 02

  At that point in my life. You would be talking to a very cocky, you'd not be talking to this person. You would be talking to a person who's like, oh, yeah, I got things figured out, man. Like, I got things figured out and I can prove it. I grew up poor. I've had some things happen that haven't been so good in my life. I've had to navigate life with a bipolar mom. Par da da da da. Like, I know life. You talk to me now, I'm like, I mean, I have ideas, you know, things that I think are like the path forward, but. That that person was just shown you are. And the spirit realm, you're a nothing. You're a nothing and you're so arrogant. You're. Out here, you like, you have no power. So. This is you're running from yourself.

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  And I was like, what am I running from? And it goes, all that. Success you chased and all the whatever, whatever it is I was trying to do. They go, that was just masking your. Heart, your, your, your, the, the, the trauma, the trauma that you have. And that, everything you're doing is just to mask that. Like, well, that's bullshit, you know, that doesn't make any sense. So it's like, okay, cuz you're, cuz you're, and by this, I mean, I'm, you're talking to a guide. So when I'm saying this, this is not like an internal monologue. This is, you're talking to something outside of yourself. It's like Dante's Inferno, like, the guide.

• 1:38:53Speaker 02

  And the guide said, okay, you know, big mouth, you wanna argue, like, we'll just vortex you back. And, uh, the spirit realm, so then, it's like you close your eyes. That's why I'm like, it's like, and scene, you're like, oh, you're like, you're in, like, a new scene. And then, like, it shows you something from, like, when you were a child, or maybe, in my case, it was like, something from when I was like a child, that was, I remember, it's like, it was showing me. It was showing me the house I grew up in. And I was like, why is it showing me the house, like, my house? I grew up in this, like, small shitty house, I hated it. We had holes in the carpet, like, I was embarrassed to bring people over. I was like, why? Why am I being shown my house?

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  What, like, I hate that fucking house, I hate this fucking house! Why are you showing me this house?

• 1:39:44Speaker 02

  And then it, and then, like, a voice is like, you had all the love in the world in that house. Your dad loved you, your mom loved you, they did the best that they could do. And you think that you can just, like, give your kids money, cuz that's your own thing. You know, like, well, you grew up poor, so... But it's like you took the love for granted, you just, like, you had all this love, but you didn't have money, so then that becomes your hangup. Like, oh, do I have enough? And, like, well, if my kids have enough, what do you need, what do you need me for? You know, like, what's that for? And it was, it was like, all the love in the world was in that house, and you hated that house. And you, like, you didn't even know it. Oh, fuck. You know, so like,

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  I always loved my dad and had a good relationship, but I was like, oh, my God, like, it was like, and what was it like for your dad to be poor? Like, not know how to make a, what was that like for him? You know, and you're just like, oh, fuck, you know, like... He was poor too. You guys were just poor. That was like the town lost a factory and people were jobless and that's just every kid's dad went through the same thing. You worked at a factory and then you had to find some other kind of shitty job and you kind of find something else and then eventually my dad figured it out. By then I was like in high school, so it didn't really impact my life either way. And then I was like, oh, fuck, I have all this, I have all these issues around money. It's just in a way that's like traumatic, you know, not just in a way that, you know, people need money to live and you want to be greedy.

• 1:41:14Speaker 02

  And, but I like, I had no idea and I never would, I never would like reach that conclusion emotionally. And then, and then you're like zooming out and it's just like, oh, it's like, it's like loves, the, the love of your family, the love that God has for you. And then, and I was like, fuck, okay. So then I closed eyes, like you wake back up and it's like, look, it was literally like an old grandfather or something like, something had a Gandalf or something. And it's like, look, and it goes, it's like in a very calming, like masculine voice, it says, it's not supposed to be this way. And it was just like, he was like doing this. He's like, it's not supposed to be this way. And I look and like, like I said, I'm laying

• 1:41:57Speaker 02

  down and I look and I see this Gandalf like figure floating and like, I was like, it's not supposed to be this way. I was like, what's not supposed to be this way? And then he just showed all the, the light. It's like the lights are all separate now. You're supposed to be together. It's supposed to be communion. It's supposed to be that everyone's, you know, loving each other and you just want to like kill, kill each other. He goes, this, this is not how it's supposed to be. It was like, it was like a frustrated dad who was like, this is like, this is not how it's supposed to be. This is not how it's supposed to be. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, this is so above my pay grade, you know? I don't even know, like, and that's how I know it's not coming from me.

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  That I'm like, if I could come up with stuff like this, people would think I was a genius. You know, this is not my brain and I'm so smart. And then I like go back under and then I come back up and I hear this like scream. And it was like the scream of an enraged mom, basically screaming at like the same situation.

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  So then, you know, it takes years to put all this together and everything, but that was like showing me the masculine, the logos. And the, the way like a father governs and then like the rage of a mom and the children like are not getting together and you know, the tension of, the tension of male and female. And then I, I saw an old woman's face on a mountain. I was like, I don't even know where this is from. I never read any books before this. That's Pacha Mama. So that's a different kind of entity. So in that case, I saw like whatever, whatever Pacha Mama was, the, you know, Mother Earth or whatever, and paganism that people describe it as. So I'm just going, you know, back and forth between flashbacks to my life.

• 1:43:48Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, so you saw a demon that others identified?

• 1:43:52Speaker 02

  A woman's head in a mountain. Yeah, yeah. Pacha Mama, I had no idea. Yeah, I didn't, I didn't do my research before going in. So I'd know, like I

• 1:44:01Tucker Carlson?

  So what you're saying is these are definitely not parts of your subconscious that rose to the surface.

• 1:44:06Speaker 02

  They're, they're, yeah, they're unless it's a parabola or unconscious is, you know, there's a theory that that, that our unconscious is generating our experience in real time, but it's not, it wasn't me. It wasn't a book I read. It was, because I was again, like atheist. So every rationalistic argument they could say, well, you probably just like, no, I never studied Aztec culture and Indian culture, but I didn't know what Pacha Mama was. And so there was, they're like, they're external entities. So the, the older figure you could say maybe, well, that was the guardian and you read Dante's Inferno in high school.

• 1:44:41Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  That was some thing in your unconscious that surfaced, but Pacha Mama and other kind of entities were not, so beyond my cultural understanding or my, my knowledge. So yeah, so then you're going, like you're going back into that and like you go through it really, I mean, it's not a pleasurable, there aren't a lot of ayahuasca addicts.

• 1:45:09Tucker Carlson?

  It's true. And it's not covered by Medicaid.

• 1:45:12Speaker 02

  No, no, they they're, which is, which is a good thing because I, I don't know, um, a lot of, you don't want some fly by night sham and you end up with the wrong situation.

• 1:45:21Tucker Carlson?

  It's all in Mexico, right?

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  A lot, a lot of things can go bad. They're, um, they're, they're different areas. I, South Africa, I'd done it before and.

• 1:45:28Tucker Carlson?

  How many times have you done it?

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Nine, 10 times.

• 1:45:31Tucker Carlson?

  Actually?

• 1:45:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. They're, um,

• 1:45:36Speaker 02

  oh yeah, they're, it, because it, it's just, you go in and the, I had a lot of, I had a lot of, I mean, I like, I had a, I had a lot of things that I had to beat out of me. I used to like, just like we're earlier, we're talking about how you, you know, a certain amount of stoicism we all have, which like, I think is good. And I think therapeutic culture goes too far where you don't want to sit around and like, talk about how bad it was being a kid. But a lot of us, and I learned this dealing with a lot of, a lot of veterans have done plant medicine. I don't know if you've seen in Waves in War yet with Amber Marcus, uh, Capone, Amber Marcus Capone, they're amazing. So you have all these vets who were suicidal.

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  And then they, a lot, a lot of them do IbaGain, they go down to IbaGain Clinic. That's what, Vets is a charity I've sponsored. Donated to, you know, for a number of years and Vet Solutions. And so with me, the, you, you realize that, like, a lot of what we do that we think of as virtuous is trying to, we're trying to hide something from ourselves. We're trying to make it so that we can't be um, vulnerable. And so with veterans especially, they, they, you know, they find out a lot of things that happened when they were kids. And that's why they became the men they were. Because you're driven by the sense that like, I'll never be weak and powerless again. I'll never be weak and powerless again, which that's a good thing. You shouldn't be weak and powerless.

• 1:47:04Speaker 02

  But if you have all this other stuff underneath that, then maybe you don't love your kids the way you're capable of, or maybe you're afraid to love your kids and wife the way you are, because maybe you're, you are afraid to be hurt. And that's another aspect, I think, where therapy culture has taken things too far, where you're like, oh, let's like, talk about our trauma like all day and relive things, whereas not like, but maybe for a weekend, you know, maybe spend a weekend and talk about it and figure it out then and, and work through it. Don't, you don't have to like live it. So I just, I had so many lessons on how, how I was just a fool, basically. I was just a fool.

• 1:47:48Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that sounds, I mean, I love that. My concern is if the demons are real,

• 1:47:56Tucker Carlson?

  aren't you afraid they'll enter you?

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  That's, that's the big debate, right? Sarah from Rose wrote a book, The Soul After Death. So if you talk to Josiah Trenton, he would just say, well, this is demonic and this pharmacia, and absolutely like, absolutely not.

• 1:48:09Tucker Carlson?

  That's kind of my instinct.

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  That wouldn't even be a debate. Yeah. There's, there's really like no debate to be had. And my, my position is I always warn people away from it because it's a monumental undertaking. It's not just something that, oh yeah, we'll go eat some shrooms and go take a hike in nature.

• 1:48:29Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  It's not in the same world. And a lot can go wrong and it can disrupt a person's life.

• 1:48:36Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I've seen that.

• 1:48:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:38Tucker Carlson?

  Too.

• 1:48:38Speaker 02

  With, with a

• 1:48:40Tucker Carlson?

  People's lives being destroyed by heavy duty hallucinogens.

• 1:48:44Speaker 02

  Like in what way?

• 1:48:46Tucker Carlson?

  A friend who killed himself, um, was from LSD, but you know,

• 1:48:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:51Tucker Carlson?

  Wrecked relationships.

• 1:48:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, LSD, LSD is poisonous. They, they can cause a lot of issues and the, that's why it's more, more or less like if you're The like the guys, especially the vets and Amber and Marcus and them work with, these are guys that are going to kill themselves and they're alcoholics, most likely. We're not, we're not talking like, oh, I'm living like life is great and I'm living in a state of love. I'm going to go drink ayahuasca this weekend.

• 1:49:18Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:49:19Speaker 02

  It's more like, or in my case where you're just being pushed there because I was living in such a state of folly and delusion.

• 1:49:28Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:49:28Speaker 02

  That there, there was like no other way. So in my, in my belief, I think God pushed me there. I think, I think it was God and he showed me, this is the only way that I can show you that you are just not who you, you are just a delusional fool. And this is the only way that we're going to get through to you.

• 1:49:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:49Speaker 02

  And the message like got through and then, you know, I have drank and, you know, had more tea since then, but it's not something that I, that I do regularly.

• 1:49:58Tucker Carlson?

  So what about the threat though of the demon entering you? You said you had serpents inside you. I should just say, I believe you. But I mean, the consequences of being, I mean, the first missionary trip Jesus sends the disciples on, all he says is cast out demons. The whole New Testament, Jesus casting out demons, the disciples casting out demons. Like that's completely real, in my opinion.

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the, and but the consequence of living my, I was probably demon possessed before the ayahuasca. Cause I was so, I'd been deluded by dark forces into thinking that I was something that I wasn't.

• 1:50:39Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:40Speaker 02

  So in, in my view, it isn't where, oh, I was such a holy person in my mind, I would have, I would have thought I was.

• 1:50:48Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:48Speaker 02

  No, it's like the opposite where like whatever I was before that, I'm not that way now. And whatever path I'm on is like about God and Christianity and like trying, you know, finding more love in the world and divine communion and just knowing that you're just not like a, you're just not a paycheck to your kids, you know? And I didn't even treat them like I was just a paycheck, but it was just some, it was, I would just. It was a glibness that I had.

• 1:51:16Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  So it's just the, the ayahuasca has just burned out all the glibness that I had. Where I can't even laugh at things sometimes. I'm just like, I just, that's just not funny. I'm the way I'm like too serious. It's like, why are you laughing?

• 1:51:28Tucker Carlson?

  It's a very non-American approach to life.

• 1:51:30Speaker 02

  This is just not funny. Trump is so fun. I don't care. Fuck fun. I hate fun. What do you mean fun? We don't get to have fun on this world. Fun? You want to have fun? What are you, a little kid? Right? So it's, it's driven, it's driven all of that out of me in, in a way that I couldn't have reached intellectually. So.

• 1:51:52Tucker Carlson?

  How does it make you feel about death?

• 1:51:55Speaker 02

  It may, well, one, I know there's a judgment. I don't think there's a judgment. I know there's a final judgment for sure.

• 1:52:01Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:52:02Speaker 02

  So for me, it's not even.

• 1:52:03Tucker Carlson?

  I think you're right, but what convinced you of that?

• 1:52:05Speaker 02

  Cause I just was in the spirit world. Like I saw my divine judgment and my divine judgment was hell. You know, that was, that was like my divine judgment. And so one is I just, I know there's a final judgment. To the point where when people say, oh, you're whatever, crazy, whatever, I don't even get offended. I'm just like, brother, I was, that was me. I was you. I was you before this. So how can I be upset with you for thinking this? When that was what I thought before then. So like, I know there's a final judgment. I know the accounting is in the human heart. It's not the words. It's not in what you say. It's not in how holy you can be and how you can tell everybody else they're not holy.

• 1:52:46Speaker 02

  And you're, you know, you're Mr. Holier than thou and everybody else is a sinner. It's your, this, the human heart is going to be weighed and measured. By God, in my opinion, it's Jesus Christ and you know, in my opinion, it's Christianity and Jesus Christ. But I'm, but I'm not a, um, I'm not into the apologetics where we argue in mind all day about like what it is. I think the human heart's going to be weighed. That's something that, that God's going to determine at the judgment. I know that I'm accountable. For everything. And I know, having died, like, for all purposes, like, I have died.

• 1:53:22Speaker 02

  I have died. And I know that when you die, the only thing you're gonna think about is the people you left behind. So all of this materialism, and, oh, no, somebody, I'm, I'm being picked on today on the internet, or I'm being canceled again, or this and that, like, none of that came up. Actually, one, one funny thing that came up was, during one of my journeys, I was like, I was under, and I saw some things, I came up, and it goes, whatever, it, it, whatever, that's what I mean, I don't know what it is, I still don't understand it. It says, you know how blessed you are that you've been, like, attacked and everything? They go, you can talk about anything.

• 1:54:06Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 1:54:07Speaker 02

  Doesn't matter. People are just like, oh, wow, Senator talks about ayahuasca, we fucking knew he was crazy anyway. You know, like, this is probably the least crazy thing that he's like, sat all week. Whereas, if I were more of, like, legitimate, and respectable, then I would have to think, well, how's this gonna play? How's this gonna play? Should I talk about this? Should I tell Tucker? Are people gonna clip this up and make fun of me? What, is this gonna impact my standing with the administration, and all the serious people in the world? Are they gonna? None of that comes up. All that came up was, are, are, is my family gonna be okay? That's the only thing that I could think about. So then you go from there. Well, are they? Have you loved them? Do they know

• 1:54:50Speaker 02

  you love them? Do you tell them that every day? Are you saying your prayers, like, every night? Because tomorrow's not promised. I could be in a car right now, flip over and die, in a second. People die, all the time, in a second. We take it for granted. Charlie Kirk's dead. Charlie Kirk is dead. That hurt me, too. That hurt, hurt me bad. I haven't cried so much, in the past three months, in my whole life. And I don't care to admit I've cried about it. You know, I think that's a problem people have, is, oh, you know, we don't, psych. I don't know, whatever a real man is, I think I'm pretty, pretty high up there. And I've been crying more in the past few months than I have my whole life combined. And you realize like Charlie just died, he just went and went to work, he's dead.

• 1:55:34Speaker 02

  His kids don't see him, they're not with them at Christmas. We're on the internet arguing about fucking Tyler Robinson and was it the Mossad? Or was it that Charlie's kids, they don't have a Christmas with them anymore. They don't have a Christmas with them. Erica goes home to an empty house and then she goes on the internet and everybody's just saying the worst things in the world about her. She's not even my friend, but she's a mom. There's the worst things in the world about her. And they had Christmas without their dad. What's that like? What's it like to have Christmas without your dad? A lot of people go through that. So do my, do my kids know this might be our last Christmas together, but I'm gonna be here. I'm gonna try to make it home. But if I don't make it home, you know, I loved you. You know, I love you. You know that you're my world and that I'm obsessed with you.

• 1:56:17Speaker 02

  And they never for a minute, they never for a minute have to wonder what like, does dad love us? Is dad, you know, is dad good to us? Nobody, my life, I text my friends the most dopey shit. You know, like, love you, man, just thinking about you. Just thinking about you. I never, never did that before. Just the dopiest, like most sentimental stuff that you could imagine. Hope you're okay. How, like, think about all your friends, you have all of us have these man friends who are also, you know, mainly me. When's the last time somebody's just like, hey, bro, I hope you're okay. Just thinking about you. That's nothing, I'm not, not poetry, but I just, oh, I haven't talked to this guy in a couple of months. I'm sure he's doing fine, maybe he's not doing fine though. Maybe he's not. Why do we think everybody's doing fine? Right? Why? Why? That's our delusion.

• 1:57:02Speaker 02

  That's the, that's the fallacy. Everybody, the folly, where everybody's doing fine. And then you don't reach out and then you go, oh, well, we shouldn't have seen it coming. You know, maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't have. So I meditate on death. I think about every day. Every day I meditate on it and it gives me a sense of calming, if that makes any sense.

• 1:57:25Tucker Carlson?

  That's exactly right. Avoiding death is what makes you neurotic. Facing it makes you calm, gives you peace.

• 1:57:33Tucker Carlson?

  Cause that's the root of all fear, obviously is the It's the fear of dying.

• 1:57:36Speaker 02

  Fear of death and the fear of status and the fear of the the egoistic attachments that we all tore names or reputations.

• 1:57:43Tucker Carlson?

  How did it affect your relationship with your wife?

• 1:57:45Speaker 02

  Uh, just like obs- I'm like obsessed with my wife. Like I'm just a simp from my wife. Which which if you, you'd have to ask her, but I don't know that she would have said that was true. You know, or maybe necessarily like early on, like all I think about is my wife and kids like like if I make money, like I don't even care. I just like get rid of it, you know? Get it to them. Like what people are like, oh, aren't you worried about your wife? Like leaving you or your kids? I'm like, I don't care. I mean, I really like, I don't care.

• 1:58:15Tucker Carlson?

  You mean signing all your money over to your wife?

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. You should do that. Yeah. I mean, I did.

• 1:58:19Tucker Carlson?

  It's the right thing.

• 1:58:19Speaker 02

  No, there's a lot of peace in that too.

• 1:58:21Tucker Carlson?

  Totally.

• 1:58:21Speaker 02

  It's like you're in your blood from a turnip. Come after me and

• 1:58:24Tucker Carlson?

  I've lived it.

• 1:58:24Speaker 02

  You're very, very disappointed when you start tip me upside down and maybe you get a few quarters out of the pocket. So it's made me just as completely like obsessed with her and the kids.

• 1:58:38Speaker 02

  It's made me like I've gotten much nicer even online than I used to be, you know, cause you just think so much of it is and I'm not perfect, you know, cause people can, but I mean, my God, not even, I'm not even, I wouldn't say I'm good, let alone perfect. But you just realize like maybe that guy's just having a bad day, you know, the guy cuts you off.

• 1:58:59Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 1:58:59Speaker 02

  I'm mad. I'm honking at him. Oh, I'm gonna fight. Maybe that guy's kid's dead, dude. Maybe his kid is in the hospital. And now I'm just adding, so I'm always about like I don't want to add to the trauma burden of the world. What, what like, who knows what other people, and that doesn't mean I'm gonna let people walk all over me and everything, but who knows what people are going through, man? You, you just like, you never know. So I think, I think about that all the time. Like, I don't have, like, I don't have any doubts that my kids know where we stand. My friends know where we stand. The people who aren't my friends know where we stand. Cause I don't have a time for like fake love and fake pleasantries and everything. It's either like, like it's real or it's not, it's not real. There's just no point.

• 1:59:44Speaker 02

  Why even, why even go into that middle space? And I just, my love for my dad, which was always very strong, was like even stronger. My empathy for my dad, my mom, you know, cause you think about what, you always think about what they did, right? To you. Cause we're the center of our own story. Cause you have to be or you can't live. I'm not, I'm not diminishing that, but then once you start thinking about like, what happened to them? What happened to them that got them?

• 2:00:11Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:00:12Speaker 02

  Here. And then suddenly you're like, yeah, man, whatever. My problems are my problems or what I went through, what I went through. But everybody, everybody has gone through that and everybody's going through something. And then, and then as that expands, I think that's meaning. And I think that's how you connect more with God because yeah, that's the divine communion. Empathy, you know, empathy is a part of the divine communion. That's why charity is part of the divine communion. That's why these are all taught by Christ, even people who don't believe in them. See the, the logic in it is you're, it's just this communion with the divine. And the better we are to each other, the more in touch we are with the, the divine. And the more that we fight and we bicker and we squabble and in the case of war, we kill each other, the further,

• 2:00:55Speaker 02

  the further away we are from God.

• 2:00:58Tucker Carlson?

  You know Scott Adams?

• 2:00:59Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Quite well.

• 2:01:01Tucker Carlson?

  He's facing death, it sounds like.

• 2:01:04Speaker 02

  No, no, that's why I've been crying. I've been telling you, I've just been crying, you know, I saw some videos, Sean has sent me a video and he's like, you know, a lot of people don't know this. But when I was just starting off, like Mike Cernovich, like really helped me out and really boosted and which is, it is true. But I was like, he's on his deathbed, he's thinking about other people. And I'm wrapped up in my own.

• 2:01:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:23Speaker 02

  Bullshit.

• 2:01:23Tucker Carlson?

  Aren't we all?

• 2:01:24Speaker 02

  Every day. Yeah. So, you know, Charlie's dead, Scott's dead. We're all getting older. There, you know, there's tragedy all around us every day. And you want to start thinking about your own life and not that we don't already. So with Scott Adams dying, that's a huge loss. I was, again, I had to leave my house because I was crying. I was like, not that I'm afraid to cry in front of my kids, but they'd be like, why are you crying, Dad? Who's, you know, it's just like, I just gotta, I just gotta take a walk. And I'm just walking and I'm like, which is another thing too, I liked about that. I couldn't cry before I wa, you like hold it in, you know?

• 2:02:02Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:03Speaker 02

  You hold it in and once you get good at working with the plant medicine, you learn it's just a wave, man. It's just a wave. Let the waves flow. Why are we so afraid? Like, why are we so afraid to cry by ourselves? Right? Like, why? If you're in a room by yourself and things are surfacing, whether you're with the plants or not with the plants, who's there to look at you other than God? What are you afraid of?

• 2:02:25Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. What are, what are we afraid of? That is scary.

• 2:02:28Speaker 02

  That's the, that's the ego in us that keeps us alive, but also enslaves us. That's the part that desires the illusion of control. So when you're, when you're letting things go, you have to surrender control for a minute. You do have to like lose your shit for a minute. And then that, that part of the, the egoism wants to, wants to fight against that and wants to feel like, you know, I don't do this.

• 2:02:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, be dignified.

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. We don't do this. Like, we don't cry. It's like, well, I mean, I don't think it's healthy to cry around your wife all the time.

• 2:03:00Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's not.

• 2:03:01Speaker 02

  Right. I'm not saying.

• 2:03:02Tucker Carlson?

  Not a good idea.

• 2:03:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm not saying walk around and like we're.

• 2:03:04Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Don't cry in front of your wife all the time.

• 2:03:05Speaker 02

  We're weepy, you know, we're weepy all the time, but.

• 2:03:08Tucker Carlson?

  That's a recipe for celibacy.

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's not, that's not an ideal thing, but. Like when my wife had a miscarriage, I like, I cried the hell out of that. I just in my office by myself and I cried and then I, you know what I noticed? I start talking to people. Or, you know, I wrote about it. They're like, oh, I had a miscarriage. I was like, why does nobody talk about this?

• 2:03:27Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 2:03:28Speaker 02

  You can't talk about it. That felt like a kid died. I was not even pro-life at that point. I was like, yeah, politically, kinda am. And when we had that miscarriage, they go, my kid died. My kid is dead. And from that, I was like, oh, pro-life. You know, I just, I just was an idiot. I didn't really understand.

• 2:03:48Tucker Carlson?

  That's such a common story though, you hear from people.

• 2:03:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:51Tucker Carlson?

  You know, I wasn't pro-life. Well, you're right.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's another thing. And then everybody's walking around, holding everything in. They're like, why are people getting drunk? Why are people doing opioids? Why are people? Well, why do you think? Cause they're, they're just like, holding on to it. And then, then they wanna mask the feelings as they bubble up. So they find alcohol. Or they find drugs, or they find pornography, or the devil loves that. That's, that's the thing too, where I go back and forth on the demonic thing with ayahuasca. I was telling a friend about this, actually. I told a friend. And he goes, he goes, what are you doing this weekend? I was like, oh, I gotta, I'm doing some fasting and I'm gonna do ayahuasca retreats. Like, ayahuasca, that's sounds dangerous and scary. And I go, oh, where are you going? He's like, I'm going to Vegas. And I go, that sounds dangerous and scary to me.

• 2:04:37Tucker Carlson?

  Well.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  You're gonna be amongst the drunks and you might get hit by a drunk driver and you might drink too much and find yourself in a strange bed. That to me, that's where the devil wants you.

• 2:04:47Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 2:04:48Speaker 02

  Cause if you start looking, like with the ayahuasca thing, even having some experience with it. I'm talking myself out of it until the minute that I drink the tea. Up until that very second that I drink the tea, I'm thinking of every excuse in the world to not drink it. Cause I don't wanna drink it. I don't wanna do it. But if 10 years ago, you said, hey, do you wanna go some, take, take some shots of vodka and other things about, oh yeah, that sounds like a great time.

• 2:05:14Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 2:05:15Speaker 02

  So then you have to, that's where the discernment comes in and that's where it becomes a heavier question. Well, why is it that I wanna do things that we know are a sin? That we know are damaging. And I want to, I'm excited for that. But I don't wanna do this thing that is like demonic. With all of my being, I do not, if the, I do not wanna ever drink ayahuasca for the rest of my life. I do not want to. That doesn't mean I won't, I don't want to. Well, why though? Why don't I want to? Well, it's because of the spiritual awakening or the spiritual reckoning that happens and the the realizations, which fundamentally, I think, have made me more, again, I don't want to say

• 2:05:58Speaker 02

  a good person, but it certainly made me change my life and live differently.

• 2:06:03Tucker Carlson?

  Have there been any downsides?

• 2:06:06Speaker 02

  You gotta be comfortable with spiritual confusion, which is one. So I have a certain, there's a certain like weight now that I, have you ever hear the expression like the unbearable lightness of being?

• 2:06:20Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 2:06:20Speaker 02

  And it's like very California woo thing and everybody's all about lighten up, man, you know, chill out, you should like learn to relax. And I do, and a friend of mine who found the medicine after I did, remember we were hanging out, he came out to one cigar and he goes, Mike. I was like, yeah, what's up, brother? What's up? He goes, I don't know how to say this. He goes, but since drinking ayahuasca, and he's a Christian, he plays in his band, you know, and he plays guitar in a band at church every Sunday. He goes, so I don't know how to say, I go, oh, you're like really spiritually confused, right? He goes, yes. And I go, what do you think I like know the answer? He's like, he goes,

• 2:07:00Speaker 02

  all I'm thinking about is like, am I doing the right thing? And there's a, there's a confusion, but like in a good way, where I think that a lot of people think, well, I'm I'm Christian, I'm saved, I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, once saved, always saved. And then I'll just sort of live my life and maybe go to church and try to be a good person or whatever. But you feel like I'm a, you know, I'm a Christian, like I've checked the box. Whereas when you, with the medicine, I think it's the opposite, where you're just on any moment, you're just waging against.

• 2:07:38Speaker 02

  Whatever, sin, the darkness, and you're just like, I don't know, man. I, I believe, but I don't, I don't really know what's gonna happen. I, I hope, you know, I hope I'm doing the right things. And tha- that level of spiritual confusion, I think, is not meant for everyone. So I don't think most people are, I think almost nobody should, should drink ayahuasca. I think almost no one should. I, I think it's only something that if a person feels like they're gonna do it anyway, and no amount of persuasion from me is gonna work, then that's something to talk about. But I, I don't think people should, should dabble in this kinda stuff.

• 2:08:14Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 2:08:16Speaker 02

  But if you're a vet, and you're like, looking at the bottom of a bottle of Jack Daniels, and you got a gun next to you.

• 2:08:25Speaker 02

  Let's get you to Mexico, you know, let's get you to Peru. Like, that's, that's a whole different.

• 2:08:30Tucker Carlson?

  Have you ever known anyone who's been made worse by it?

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  Wor- worse is, worse is a hard way of putting it because people go through phases. So I've, what happens with some people unfortunately is because you are getting quote unquote, like, downloads from the universe, people do kind of chase that download of the universe, dragon versus like, the hard work of living in life. Right? So drinking ayahuasca, once you kinda have a hang of it, it's never easy. But it's like you put on your space suit, and you kinda know, you know, you kinda know, like, you drink it, and you can feel it moving through you, and your hands start to feel like you have carpal tunnel, and, right? When you feel like you can sort of stretch out, and you're like, oh yeah, I'm a, the medicine's about to hit.

• 2:09:15Speaker 02

  And you can't direct the experience in an active way, but you sorta know what you're, you're getting into. The first couple times, God help you. And what people will do then, is rather than undertake the hard work of being alive, the hard work is here. The, the realizations that I had change how I live here. But the hard work is still like, I don't know, this is a great talk, I'm gonna leave here, I'm like, I think that was a good talk. And then I'm gonna be like wrapped up about some business thing, you know, or mad about something that somebody did to me, or wondering about some, you know, uncertain thing. And then

• 2:09:56Speaker 02

  the, you know, the demons come in and kind of, kind of steal your joy. So the hard work is here and, and planet Earth. Why are we here? That's again, goes to the meaning of life question. The, um, like, take the Garden of Eden story, for example. Even if it's not real, why was it written?

• 2:10:13Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, if it's not real, it was written as a metaphor, I suppose.

• 2:10:17Speaker 02

  Why though?

• 2:10:18Tucker Carlson?

  To tell us about the nature of God and man.

• 2:10:23Speaker 02

  That's one, yeah. But I think it's, this is not our home.

• 2:10:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:29Speaker 02

  Right? We just, we know, we don't, we know we don't belong here. Right? The, the Garden of Eden is, whatever this is, this is not, like, we were, whether we were cast out of Eden because we listened to the serpent and we rejected God, whether that's literal, that's a metaphor, the, the underlying feeling is that we are aliens on this planet.

• 2:10:51Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:52Speaker 02

  However, we got here is a, is a different question.

• 2:10:55Tucker Carlson?

  The New Testament says that a lot.

• 2:10:56Speaker 02

  And we're just like stuck in these like bodies that don't want to cooperate. And that want to lead us to, to things that we, on a spiritual level, maybe don't want to do. So, so the, the only real downside that I've seen from people who have done the plant medicine, although there are bad stories, like they're like, I, after, I had a really big night. And the guy said, you know, if you're thinking about leaving your wife, call me first. And I go, I, I love my wife more than ever. I was like, it actually would be the opposite. He goes, okay. He goes, but you had a big night. So what happens is a lot of times that people have a big night, the facilitator or shaman guy isn't good, or he's fly by night.

• 2:11:41Speaker 02

  And you're just like, oh, I realized I'm not living the way I'm supposed to. And then they just like upend their life.

• 2:11:46Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah. I know someone who did that.

• 2:11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So that is a, a hundred percent of risk. And that's why I'm, I'm always hesitant to talk about it because I don't want to seem like I'm glamorizing it. I want to, like, when I talk about ayahuasca, I want it to sound kind of like foreboding.

• 2:12:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  Maybe you shouldn't do this. You probably shouldn't do this. You probably shouldn't, you might just blow up your whole life. You probably shouldn't do it to. To avoid people going in and saying, it's like, no, bro, you didn't, you were just bored. Right? You were just bored and now you like destroyed your whole life and the real, the real work is the homework. The homework is this, what we gotta do here. The downloads in the universe might feel great at the time, or you might feel like you have all this insight and connection to a super intelligence, a superpower, but you're still back here on planet earth. So why don't you spend more time here in this body and planet earth? And figuring out the, the best way to live your life.

• 2:12:42Tucker Carlson?

  Has the experience made you more aware of like the spiritual realm around you day to day?

• 2:12:47Speaker 02

  I see everything as spiritual realm. Yeah. Every, I see everything as being

• 2:12:55Speaker 02

  interests, entities, trying to act upon humanity in some kind of cosmic war. That we don't really understand, but for whatever reason, humans are a very important part of it. Now, my belief again is the orthodox Christian part, which is like I accept the orthodox Christianity story is the true one, but I'm just, you know, I'm trying not to be a be like I'm a priest because God, go to Josiah Trenton or someone if you want a priest, stay far away from me. Like that's people ask me religious questions. I'm like, get away from me and find Josiah Trenton.

• 2:13:28Tucker Carlson?

  I feel the same way.

• 2:13:29Speaker 02

  So far away from me, please.

• 2:13:31Tucker Carlson?

  I have no, no standing.

• 2:13:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, get away. So I'm just saying like my own belief is that God created man, we have bodies, the demons envy us because they, they can't be satiated. They don't have bodies. They hate us. When they attack us, that's their revenge against God. So the demons are constantly trying to use us.

• 2:13:51Tucker Carlson?

  They can't be satiated. How in what way, why do you say that?

• 2:13:55Speaker 02

  Because they're, they're floating around in a spirit. They've been denied bodies. So that they are roaming around like in a, in a zombie kind of state.

• 2:14:03Tucker Carlson?

  Always thought that one of the hallmarks of like hell on earth is the inability to be satiated, satisfied, full.

• 2:14:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:14:10Tucker Carlson?

  Whether it's eating bad food or having the wrong kind of sex. It's like, it's never enough or drugs or alcohol or.

• 2:14:16Speaker 02

  Insomnia. Yeah. Imagine, yeah. So they're walking around in insomnia. They hate us. They hate humans and they want to hurt us and they more importantly want us to hurt each other. To harm God. That's how they see us because the demons think they're gonna win. Remember, like, if you're a Christian, we say, well, we know how the story ends. God wins in the end, right? The demons don't believe that, though. We believe that. They don't believe it. So they believe that the, they can turn us against each other. They can get us to hurt each other. They can, like a lot of demons, enter people through traumatic experiences.

• 2:14:54Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  They believe, they believe they're gonna win. This is not, in their minds, they are the winners in the end. They're gonna win. So they want to use us to get us to harm each other because they see that as harming God more than anything else. So we're constantly being acted upon. So I'm constantly like praying for discernment, discernment, discernment, discernment, discernment. Am I being manipulated? Am I being led astray? Because, I mean, on a political level, I've been played before by people, by sources, not knowing it.

• 2:15:27Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, me too.

• 2:15:27Speaker 02

  And then I find out.

• 2:15:28Tucker Carlson?

  A lot.

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So I'm, so like, when people tell me things like, oh, here's the truth about the Venezuela raid, or here's the truth about Israel, or here's the truth about Palestine. It's like discernment. Am I just being played? Because everybody wants you, you know, especially at your level, that's why I was telling, telling you guys earlier, like, I thank the Lord above that I am not you, that I'm not Russell Brand, that I am not Tempul, that I am not any of you guys. Because I'm so weak and pathetic, I couldn't imagine if I had your guys.

• 2:16:02Tucker Carlson?

  Nah, it's not.

• 2:16:03Speaker 02

  You can say that. You can brush it off, but, um.

• 2:16:06Tucker Carlson?

  I have so many dogs and children that it's like, I don't even notice. But, uh, all right, I make myself not notice. But no, but I think anyone who's in a position where other people listen to him is under particularly fierce attack.

• 2:16:19Speaker 02

  Constant. No, just imagine the texts like JD gets.

• 2:16:23Tucker Carlson?

  And that's unimaginable.

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  Just like unreal. Um, because even sometimes I'm like, ah, you know, I'll see something you said, like, I don't, I don't agree with that. And I go, man, I'm not gonna be another guy texting Tucker, nagging him about.

• 2:16:36Tucker Carlson?

  Please do.

• 2:16:36Speaker 02

  Nagging, nagging him about something. But no, so I, so there is the risk that.

• 2:16:44Speaker 02

  As you've seen happen, a person is kind of an ayahuasca tourist. They go in, they go, oh, my whole life has been a lie and therefore I'm just gonna like blow up my whole life. Don't do that. Like, and if the person you're with is not, if the shaman or whatever the facilitator is not telling you like, don't do that, then, then you're in the wrong place. But other, but other than that, and people getting caught in the, the trap of downloads, I've seen like the biggest, baddest men on the planet that just wanna like hug their kids. And they went from PTSD and staring off into the void and drinking and fighting with their wives and riding motorcycles too fast just for a

• 2:17:28Speaker 02

  rush. And because frankly, like, maybe they, maybe it is a death wish.

• 2:17:31Tucker Carlson?

  Of course it is.

• 2:17:31Speaker 02

  Right. And then you take away responsibility because you go, oh, I just got in a crash. I didn't kill myself. Like some pussy, you know, I just got in a wreck. But really, they're trying to kill themselves and just become like, it's actually pretty, it's actually, it's actually changed my view on a lot of this, like, real men don't cry and you see all this bravado. And I'm like, dude, I've cried with the Delta Force guy. I've cried with the SEAL Team Six guy. You are not more, whatever your definition of manly is, you are like not more, if you ever see like Marcus Capone's like this, you are not more manly than Marcus Capone, or DJ Shipley, or any of these other guys. That, that's like for sure. So there, so I, at the very least, I do hope it, because again, I don't

• 2:18:16Speaker 02

  want people to listen to this, go to ayahuasca, it's an immense, that would be immensely damaging for somebody to do that based on what I'm saying to me. I don't want them to do it. That wouldn't be a nice thing to do to me. But I do hope that people can say, yeah, what's the big deal? Like, I'm by myself in a room and I'm praying and I, I cry. Why am I holding it in? Who cares? Right? And then find that, find that part.

• 2:18:40Tucker Carlson?

  Ego is the reason. I think you're exactly right. So, last question, we, we're in a period of, we're in a huge change period, of course, and one of the qualities of it is chaos. It's just a chaotic moment. It's hard to understand, especially if you're, you know, 50 and you've been watching this stuff your whole life. It's like, all of a sudden, this, this is a departure. How much of that chaos is like spiritual?

• 2:19:07Speaker 02

  It always has been. I mean, you remember that song, "Sympathy for the Devil," Rolling Stone?

• 2:19:11Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 2:19:11Speaker 02

  What if that's not a song? What if that's real? Right?

• 2:19:15Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it is real.

• 2:19:16Speaker 02

  Right. So, in my view...

• 2:19:19Tucker Carlson?

  The Jacobin Terror, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Spanish Civil War, what's happening in Ukraine.

• 2:19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:25Tucker Carlson?

  It's all the same.

• 2:19:26Speaker 02

  It's all part of the same strain. So, I think that we... Because, again, you're born into a certain period of time, and then we tend to overweight the time that we're in, and we see it maybe in a different color than it should be. We're not like, your son isn't getting drafted into Vietnam War. We're not getting drafted into World War II. We're not getting drafted into World War I. I think that in terms of, even though he's kind of a lamster, Steven Pinker is like Better Angels. I think we were on the trend to, towards a better world, and we've seen that that's been upended. But that we're still in a good time, and what we do want to have as our North Star is like preserving order, knowing that like, we're gonna have conflict.

• 2:20:12Speaker 02

  But if we can find some kind of allyship or alliance, and that means everybody has to pull their own weight, then we shouldn't give in to the rancor and the infighting. And I, I used to be an infighter and like infighting a lot, and I've cut down on that by at least half.

• 2:20:30Tucker Carlson?

  It's a good New Year's resolution.

• 2:20:33Tucker Carlson?

  Mike Cernovich, that didn't go in the direction I anticipated was much better and more interesting and deeper. Thank you.

• 2:20:39Speaker 02

  Thank you. My pleasure.