Part Two: How The U.S. Government Used Aliens To Destroy a Man's Mind

Robert tells Brandie how Richard Doty crafted an elaborate alien ruse to destroy Paul Bennewitz's mind, all with the goal of hiding the U. S. government's drone and stealth bomber programs. Spying, disinformation accusations follow UFO figure Rick Doty — an exclusive interview – Mystery Wire https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mysterywire.com%2Fufo%2Fspying-disinformation-accusations-follow-ufo-figure-rick-doty-an-exclusive-interview%2F&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263285952039%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WaDcZgL0gnR%2FswKgz5Usjy1zuD%2B5HNVtQ8bR%2FMgb1bk%3D&reserved=0 INTERVIEW: Defiant Rick Doty defends against 'liar' claims — punk rock and UFOs https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.punkrockandufos.com%2Fblog%2F2017%2F11%2F20%2Finterview-defiant-rick-doty-defends-against-liar-claims&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263285975881%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WqSlwEgTLwz0JjKDpo28JO%2B9NG%2FRY84Q2TZl1TCfcaw%3D&reserved=0 Mirage Men: UFO researcher Mark Pilkington on deception and psychological warfare | WIRED https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wired.com%2Fstory%2Fmirage-men%2F&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263285993354%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rMbEqlC2EwitikLQIIqJTmDzyM%2Fx1gZgxVU8JIrc1WQ%3D&reserved=0 https://www.tweaktown.com/news/81486/ex-air-force-intelligence-officer-ufos-are-50-000-years-ahead-of-us/index.html https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tweaktown.com%2Fnews%2F81486%2Fex-air-force-intelligence-officer-ufos-are-50-000-years-ahead-of-us%2Findex.html&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286010337%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=3V0afiDpUFuN3T4LYiau3CuFJ2dJPdLAFA1QAUCiZ3A%3D&reserved=0 Ex-Air Force Intelligence Officer: UFOs are 50,000 years ahead of us https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tweaktown.com%2Fnews%2F81486%2Fex-air-force-intelligence-officer-ufos-are-50-000-years-ahead-of-us%2Findex.html&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286029435%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5uKeB5WjUVanPtWhyOdrcHeuhMhv4LlXVePzT9wc6vI%3D&reserved=0 Here’s a thing about Richard Doty that not many know... : r/UFOs https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FUFOs%2Fcomments%2Fzvg6s2%2Fheres_a_thing_about_richard_doty_that_not_many%2F&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286047455%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=cMN532UoWYKZI2rpP6hqpaz9RFpJdE0Jg0U4rKqbokk%3D&reserved=0 The Man Who Knew Too Much: The Unthinkable True Story of How the US Government Conspired to Destroy a UFOlogist Who Knew Too Much | by Cybertheticproject | Medium https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmedium.com%2F%40cybertheticproject%2Fthe-man-who-knew-too-much-the-unthinkable-true-story-of-how-the-us-government-conspired-to-destroy-c327eb23c943&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286246251%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HRPB75aKL3f%2FUUbyy03byOAAozMyFgG49VDQvnFhR4M%3D&reserved=0 The real Men in Black, Hollywood and the great UFO cover-up | Movies | The Guardian https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Ffilm%2F2014%2Faug%2F14%2Fmen-in-black-ufo-sightings-mirage-makers-movie&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286263868%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=y5qobqzLgUKP9BP8XE6xcN67wOl0E5ErcL0%2F24Cb5ZQ%3D&reserved=0 The U. S. Government UFO Cover-Up Is Real—But It’s Not What You Think - The Atlantic https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.is%2FouNLn&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286280549%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=amZFNBE7tkPOPRq8dYMR31bOL12t91tXOcxnoQmgaxE%3D&reserved=0 Robert Bigelow: Is There Life After Death? - The New York Times https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.is%2Fu14EC%23selection-1261.0-1265.293&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286297271%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ikawhGK%2FRGT38DtfNGyp6VnXkN8WOzojOZvkR3tmdyc%3D&reserved=0 Here’s a thing about Richard Doty that not many know... : r/UFOs https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FUFOs%2Fcomments%2Fzvg6s2%2Fheres_a_thing_about_richard_doty_that_not_many%2F&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286314028%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DQJ5oRga7orNbb7v6rf4Ba4flbkd6R6iDy2i6onrbhI%3D&reserved=0 https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/magazine/were-going-to-work-miracles/ https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sciencehistory.org%2Fstories%2Fmagazine%2Fwere-going-to-work-miracles%2F&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286332617%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=skl9ek%2F4oVo7dSkzV6wrOm%2FgH4KebYSk42fnbZdn20g%3D&reserved=0 https://www.amazon.com/Saucers-Spooks-Kooks-Disinformation-Aquarius/dp/0994617682 https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FSaucers-Spooks-Kooks-Disinformation-Aquarius%2Fdp%2F0994617682&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286349574%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WOOs0vl%2Fd7CNhc%2BGofby8w%2Bbi%2Bd61es25u8rGUZis1A%3D&reserved=0 https://bookshop.org/p/books/project-beta-the-story-of-paul-bennewitz-national-security-and-the-creation-of-a-modern-ufo-myth-greg-bishop/f43a1e97fc8139fd?ean=9781416513391&digital=t&source=IndieBound https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbookshop.org%2Fp%2Fbooks%2Fproject-beta-the-story-of-paul-bennewitz-national-security-and-the-creation-of-a-modern-ufo-myth-greg-bishop%2Ff43a1e97fc8139fd%3Fean%3D9781416513391%26digital%3Dt%26source%3DIndieBound&data=05%7C02%7CDanlGoodman%40iheartmedia.com%7C6a9b2b55acb44a1171b308dd4b121906%7C122a527e5b714eba878d9810b495b9e3%7C0%7C0%7C638749263286366393%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJFbXB0eU1hcGkiOnRydWUsIlYiOiIwLjAuMDAwMCIsIlAiOiJXaW4zMiIsIkFOIjoiTWFpbCIsIldUIjoyfQ%3D%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=xOtJgznd85yCUkbhBRPOCa8L8lhjcVdV5K0oNpxJrSo%3D&reserved=0 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Robert Evans?

  Oh, man. Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, all of you beautiful people and also all of you ugly people, you know, all, all people are beautiful. Except for I just kind of said that I didn't, that they're not. That was

• 0:19Speaker 01

  There's inside and outside beauty, you know.

• 0:21Robert Evans?

  There's only one kind. There's only one kind. I'm not going to say what it is. I'm not going to say which kind of beauty, but there's only one kind.

• 0:28Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 0:30Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's elbows.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 0:33Robert Evans?

  I'm an elbow guy. I'm an elbow guy. Yeah, I'm starting the Wiki feed of elbows. It's just a bunch of like really blurry cropped photos of like elbows of different celebrities. Oh, my God.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  Do you know there's no nerve endings in your elbow skin?

• 0:48Robert Evans?

  That's the hottest thing about it.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I had a friend in my comparative religions class that discovered weed and will make everybody bite his elbows the beginning of every class.

• 0:58Robert Evans?

  Oh, that's a pervert. That's a pervert. That's an elbow pervert right there.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Well, currently he's a born again meteorologist in North Carolina. So yes, that is a pervert.

• 1:09Robert Evans?

  No, I can see why you'd be scared that God is angry at you if you're that kind of pervert because he is. But that that makes it hotter for a lot of us. Brandy Posey, welcome back to the program. You want to plug anything at the top before we get too, too deep into elbows?

• 1:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. Before we get elbow deep.

• 1:28Robert Evans?

  That's right. That's right. Bowen. Bowen with Robert and Brandy.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  Get it down, baby. Yeah, I run a comedy record label. It's called Burn This Records. We seek to create like equity between our artists in a way that most comedy labels don't. I put out 17 albums last year was our first year. This year we have about 15. It's digital only and everybody is not only funny, but a good person, which is a Venn diagram that I wish more people in comedy paid attention to.

• 2:00Robert Evans?

  Yes. Well, I think that's awesome. So check that out, everybody.

• 2:05Robert Evans?

  And uh, let's uh, let's get, are you ready to get back into this story? Into these aliens?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 2:09Robert Evans?

  And spooks?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  Bow deep in aliens.

• 2:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaking of bows, Richard Doty probably doesn't have nice elbows. Uh, he's, he's our Air Force Office of Special Investigations.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  When you said, when you said bows, I was like, are we talking for your hair? Are we talking?

• 2:29Robert Evans?

  Nope.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Are we talking speakers? Are we?

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Natty bow.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  There's so many bows. Does he have no bows? No, no, no partners. What are we talking about?

• 2:39Robert Evans?

  You know what? Speaking of bows, I will let, this just yesterday I wound up just because of, it happened as I was driving, like responding to a three car crash. And there was a young woman in the middle car who was the only one who was hurt. And she was hurt because she had a beret in like the back of her hair.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  For, for.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  A claw.

• 2:57Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it was a claw shaped one. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Which is a no go.

• 3:00Robert Evans?

  Anyway, don't, don't wear those in the car.

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Don't wear those in a car. Do your hair, you can bring your claw clip in the car, but do not wear it while you're, while you're in the car. Cause it's just bad, bad.

• 3:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I have a friend that is, her sister's an ER nurse. And um, when she gets in her car, her whole backseat is full of those claws. Cause when you get in her car and she throws it, she just takes it out and throws it in the backseat. Because the number one thing that she sees in her, her ER room is that in women's skulls from car accidents. So.

• 3:31Robert Evans?

  Thankfully, this lady seemed fine.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  I do like you saying barrette, the way you said it.

• 3:36Robert Evans?

  Barrette?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  You said it like so surgical.

• 3:39Robert Evans?

  I thought that's what it was called. I thought that's what it was called.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  You're not wrong, but you're also wrong.

• 3:43Robert Evans?

  Anyway, don't, don't wear those. And also if you're ever in a car accident and your head is hurt in any way, shape or form, uh, go get checked out by a professional. Um, don't just assume it's okay. You don't want to wind up like, uh, that famous guy's wife.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  No, you got one brain, man.

• 4:00Robert Evans?

  Saying that to be, wasn't saying that to be, uh, flippant. It's a real problem.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:05Robert Evans?

  Go to the doctor.

• 4:07Speaker 03

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 4:12Robert Evans?

  Picture this, you're listening to the Sniffy's Cruising Confessions podcast and suddenly, wait, what did they just say? Well, the questions raised in those show-stopping moments will be answered in the all-new bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor. Hosts Gabe and Chris will dive deep on a specific topic covered in that week's Tuesday episode, from sexual health and HIV prevention to finding the right doctor. Listen to this special bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor, now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get podcasts. Sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences.

• 4:43Speaker 04

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• 5:15Robert Evans?

  So, let's talk about fucking UFOs. And a guy who didn't go to the doctor maybe enough, or maybe went too much, I don't know. Richard Doty was born sometime around the immediate post-war period. He is, I haven't actually run into his exact, that said, I didn't like go super hardcore digging into it. His father and his uncle Edward were his chief influences growing up, and both were military men. This guy is kind of, you know, an early, I think, like mid-boomer or something like that. And his uncle Edward had been a career officer and meteorologist. In 1947, he'd been made chief of an Air Force weather research station, working on something

• 5:58Robert Evans?

  called the Atmospheric Divergence Project. Now, decades later, because Richard Doty is not just the guy who's going to like do- Spread a bunch of lies to Paul Bennewitz that helps drive him mad. He also becomes like an alien influencer claiming that like, oh no, I actually did also see real aliens, guys, and you can totally trust me. I know that like my whole thing is I lied to a guy about aliens for years, but also you can trust me when I tell you about aliens that I saw.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I lied because I also tell the truth. That's how it works.

• 6:27Robert Evans?

  Exactly, exactly. Now that I'm out, you can trust me. So Richard Doty, the spook and liar kind of guy, has in kind of modern interviews tells viewers that the atmospheric divergence project his uncle worked on was an attempt to quote, "change or neutralize gravity around a rocket to aid in space travel." Now, I haven't found the exact details in the specific project his uncle worked on, but I don't think this is true. Because while I did not find the reports on that project, I did spend way too much of my research time reading through an Air Force handbook on meteorological techniques and atmospheric divergence impacts the growth of storm systems in a bunch of ways that are obviously relevant to an Air Force meteorologist and not at all involved

• 7:11Robert Evans?

  with fucking up gravity for space travel, right? This sounds like a normal meteorologist thing to do. Richard is a tall tail spinner, right?

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, yeah.

• 7:19Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And one of the issues with my sources, because the two of the, I've got a bunch of articles in here that you can, you can find, but there's also two books that I read for this. One is Sausage Spooks and Kooks by Adam Go-Rightly, and one is Project Beta by Greg Bishop. Both of them are very entertaining. I think Greg's book, Project Beta, is the better book. Both of these guys also believe in stuff I don't, particularly Bishop. Well, I think he, because I've caught, there's some stuff in Go-Rightly's book that I caught that's just not factually, just slips, that he slipped up on. I think Bishop is more familiar with the subculture, but also Bishop definitely believes a bunch of shit I don't. And he's, you can tell he kind of is excited at like talking with these spooks

• 8:04Robert Evans?

  and spies, and I think he gives them a lot more credit than he ought to.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Oh, God, he's caught up in the romance of it all.

• 8:12Robert Evans?

  I think he is, not in a way that I think makes his, his basic conclusions wrong. Or his book not worth reading? Again, I think this is, it's actually quite worth reading. It's quite a good book and I think he's a good writer. Um, I just don't, I'm not simpatico with him on, on all of the conclusions he comes to about these guys. I don't mean that as an insult to the man. Um, cause again, I liked his book a lot. Um, so, uh, but that is an issue when it comes to like trying to figure out shit here, right? Uh, and in Project Beta Bishop does do about like the best of any of them at kind of questioning Doty by saying, perhaps this had something to do with weather control, or maybe it was something more prosaic. And like, it didn't, it wasn't weather control or gravity. It was just studying how this thing that affects

• 8:53Robert Evans?

  meteorological forecasts work. Very normal thing for a meteorologist to do. Anyway, Doty joined the air force as a young man, just like his paw and uncle and per Bishop. Uh, he entered in 1968 as a combat security policeman. Um, Doty would later claim he was quote, "tested and tracked throughout his career to become a base security guard and then a special agent for AFOC, uh, the air force office of special investigations." Now, that's how Doty tells the story. And I don't think he's, I don't, I think that's very silly because I'm not an expert on this, but I, I've known a number of people who were in different, uh, military

• 9:34Robert Evans?

  intelligence roles. Uh, and I will tell you one thing that is very consistent. Base security guard is not a job that you are scouted for your entire career, right?

• 9:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 9:46Robert Evans?

  Like, it's kind of a shit gig, actually. Like, nobody likes base security and it's not really what most kids join wanting to do with their lives, right?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  No, no. It's like a step above base janitor, but like also the same kind of.

• 10:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  And not to besmirch either job necessarily, but also like you're not.

• 10:04Robert Evans?

  I'll besmirch it a little.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:06Robert Evans?

  I'll smirch it some. I'm smirching a little here.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I'll let you, just a scooch of smirch, we'll take it.

• 10:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Doty really wants people to believe that he was like, he was scouted by the air force. Cause like, we need a guy we can trust to, to do security for our very secret, very real alien projects. And like, wow, we, we, we noted from the beginning of his time in the air force that he had something special, right? And that's the way he talks about his background.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  This is very observe and report, but with aliens.

• 10:36Robert Evans?

  Yes, yes, yes. And you know, AFC is more prestigious than base security. He eventually does, you know, he's a special agent. He's a sergeant, but he's also a special agent for this. And that is like a more prestigious role, but also his job within AFC isn't the most prestigious thing because other members of that agency are literally, this is like,

• 10:59Robert Evans?

  the time that he's in is one of like the high points for like spy shit anywhere in the world, like history, right? Other guys in AFC are locked in life and death spy battles with like fucking got some of the best spies on planet earth, right? You know, you've got the foreign, you know, Russian and Chinese agents like there's some really interesting shit going on here. Doty's job during this like great international game is to lie to people who believe they'd been molested by Martians. So he doesn't have the sexiest job within this sort of field, right?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Not quite espionage, but a couple of things.

• 11:34Robert Evans?

  Right. He's not James Bond, you know? There are some guys in AFC doing some really like, you can talk about the ethics of it, but like interesting spy shit. He's, I mean, it is interesting, but not in the same way.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  I'd like to see his Bond movie, though. I would like to see.

• 11:49Robert Evans?

  Yes.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, this, this low rent Bond is definitely a movie that I'd be into.

• 11:54Robert Evans?

  Well, that's kind of the, the premise of the Slow Horses TV show, right? Which, which does have, what's his name? Commissioner Gordon's in it and he's great. Um, I think the show, I have mixed opinions on it, but he's always, always a charm. The original commis-, well, not the original, the one from the Nolan movies. I forget his name. Gary Oldman. So Doty today claims that right after basic training, and again, this is also bullshit. He was taken to a room and shown footage of UFOs. And like, I don't believe that if there are aliens that the government has evidence of, obviously there's some people that they let into that secret within military intelligence. It's not going to be anyone who just finished basic. Because you know who can finish basic training? Almost anyone. Like, that's part of the point.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hey, 18 year old with about a frontal lobe that is fully formed. You want to see aliens right now? Like, unless I want to fuck with you specifically, maybe, but like not in a, like an official, constructive capacity, for sure.

• 12:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Hey, guy whose primary hobby is getting blackout drunk every single night of the week. Let's, let's show you an alien video.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And all those pushups you did, guess what? Here's also aliens. You passed the test.

• 13:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Now, this is generally described as a test. And I think that's how like Bishop describes it in his book is that Doty was being tested to see who, or at least Doty claims he was being tested to see, you know, if he could be trusted with more detailed info about extraterrestrials. So I guess there's a possibility that maybe something like this did happen and it wasn't real aliens, but it was just like, let's show a bunch of guys alien footage and like, see who leaks it, right? That they saw something, you know, see who we can trust. Stuff like, I don't think even then, I kind of doubt it because they weren't really doing that to guys who just finished basic, but shit like that is happening within different kind of intelligence agencies. And it's not just aliens. They lie about, they, they, disinfo is given out to people during this period of time in different intel roles, just to see if they can be trusted, right?

• 13:50Robert Evans?

  Like, that's a thing that happens. Doty also claims that he served as a guard at Area 51, where he saw a UFO. Now, again, Area 51 is a real base. They are really try, doing experimental shit with planes there. This could be true. And in fact, the story he tells might, might be true, but not in a way he wants you to think, because he, he claims while he's there, he sees them wheeling out this huge black disc that some sort of craft that they're, they're trying to get into the atmosphere, that they like launch. And it, it doesn't look like anything he's ever seen. And his commanding officer takes him aside, right? Because he sees Doty's fascinated in this. And here's the conversation that is related in the book, Project Beta. "Airmen Doty, do you know what that craft was?" asked the officer.

• 14:33Robert Evans?

  "No, sir. That's what is generally known as a UFO, and it's not one of ours. It's on loan." "Yes, sir. Someday, if you play your cards right, you will learn, know a lot more. But for now, you are to tell no one about this, and you are not to discuss it with anyone. Is that clear?" Doty never talked about it again. And first off, obviously, he did, because you're telling us this story. So like-

• 14:53Speaker 01

  From reading it in the book, it's definitely been recounted several times.

• 14:58Robert Evans?

  But also, that could be basically true and have nothing to do with aliens. He could have been on guard duty, seen a weird craft that maybe, maybe like was a fucking French or Canadian thing that like we were doing tests on, right? So it's on loan and his boss is just kinda like, hey, you know,

• 15:15Robert Evans?

  maybe if you play your cards right, you'll, you'll get, we'll trust you with more stuff, right? And I, I don't know, I don't know if Doty actually gets much more trust, but this could be largely accurate, although I don't think that's likely.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:28Robert Evans?

  That said, like, there's evidence, he is working, he probably, he definitely does see experimental craft through his job for FOC later in his career, because he's working at bases where they're doing that. That doesn't mean that he's told what it all is, because they, they silo that info. Even if it's your job to stop people from finding out about these programs, you may not be told much about them, because it's a need to know thing and you don't, right? You need to stop people from filming the weird craft. You don't need to know how it works. You don't need to know what it is, right?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. They don't want curious people working on like lower levels of this stuff at all. Like, they're not, they want you to just come in and be like, my job is to do this and then have blinders up to everything else.

• 16:08Robert Evans?

  I didn't see shit. This is why, I've been saying this for years, the government should have all of its security done by street level drug dealers, you know? Those guys can keep their fucking mouth shut, you know?

• 16:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Ain't no snitches.

• 16:22Robert Evans?

  Exactly, exactly. Area 51, all security provided by coke dealers. Just don't give them any coke, then they talk about everything.

• 16:32Robert Evans?

  You gotta keep them sober, otherwise it ends very badly.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Ooh, man, what a fun place, just a bunch of sober coke dealers.

• 16:38Robert Evans?

  Yeah, a bunch of sober coke dealers at Area 51. This is gonna end well. So there's evidence that a lot of, you know, Doty is a credulous guy. He does come to, at least he will claim to believe in this, he might just be fucking with everybody, I don't really know. But a lot of guys in his kind of level in different intel agencies are believers themselves, right? So at any rate, Doty claims that his chief mentor in spy shit was a guy named Seeley Howard, a former insurance salesman. According to Doty, he gave him this sage advice early in his spook career. There are three sorts of people you will be dealing with. The first are the ones who will believe anything you say. The second are those who will, at least at first, refuse to believe

• 17:22Robert Evans?

  you. The last is the group who won't believe you at first, but might be willing to be convinced. And what I find interesting about that is those last two groups are the same group of people.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:32Robert Evans?

  The people who don't believe you at first, but you can make them believe you. I don't see the difference. Uh, yeah.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  No, it's just one is just on a longer timeline and eventually, yeah, sure.

• 17:44Robert Evans?

  So as soon as Paul Bennewitz called the Air Force with results of his surveillance, they knew they might have a problem. The Air Force Office of Special Investigations very quickly became concerned that Paul Bennewitz had stumbled onto a secret laser-based tracking system located in Kirtland. At least that's one of the things he might have stumbled on. Greg Bishop, who wrote Project Beta, noted that these transmissions sounded like gibberish language that had been distorted and sped up, or to a true believer like Paul, they sounded like alien speech. Edwards, chief of Kirtland-based security, had previously described Doty to a friend at the NSA as his "drug man." And so, "That's less cool than it sounds," as Greg Bishop writes. "The duty simply involved checking for allegations of illegal drug use on the base, but it was only

• 18:28Robert Evans?

  one of Agent Doty's minor assignments. The AFOC has jurisdiction over all criminal and security investigations at Air Force facilities. Most AFOC agents must carry a high-security clearance. Agents need to know what they are protecting so that security threats can be recognized quickly." Bennewitz carefully described to Doty what he had seen and recorded, all while trying to keep what he really thought was going on to himself for the moment. And this is where I think Bishop is too credulous, because, again, think back to Roswell, the first guy, like, they don't tell the people who are looking and responding to that crashed balloon that Project Mogul exists. It's very common for these guys not to be in the loop about stuff, right?

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:08Robert Evans?

  Especially since he's just a sergeant, you know? Like, he's not a super high-level guy here. That said, Doty is kind of sent to talk to Bennewitz and he's like, hey, uh, you know, why don't you come to the base and we can talk about your research? Um, and so Paul heads to the base and he shows Doty what he's got and Doty is initially kind of, you know, bored and then he perks up when Paul starts to show him his radio array. He returns to the base to talk with some NSA colleagues about being, bringing an expert out to Paul's home to see what he'd built. So he visits Paul at his house, uh, and this time with an actual like, uh, uh, like scientist in tow. Yeah. Another engineer, a guy named Lou Miles.

• 19:49Robert Evans?

  And the fact that Paul has now been invited to the base to talk, he's had, you know, a guy come over to his house from Air Force Intelligence. Paul is like, takes this as evidence that like, I'm on the right track and the Air Force supports me. I'm now kind of helping, looking, helping the Air Force find evidence that there's aliens, you know? I kind of got my X-Files job because they think I'm so cool and smart.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Buddy.

• 20:15Robert Evans?

  I know. It's really sick because he's just trying to help, you know?

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, he is just trying to help.

• 20:21Robert Evans?

  He just wants to keep his country safe.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Oh, they're sizing you up, buddy, to see what kind of a threat you are.

• 20:27Robert Evans?

  Oh, no, my man. No, not at all. So the expert Doty brings to, uh, Paul's home is Lou Miles. Like Valdez, that, uh, state trooper. Miles was a guy who wanted to believe. He had been involved to an extent with Project Blue Book, which was like a multi-year Air Force investigation into UFOs. It's one of the big seminal moments in early UFO history, right?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:50Robert Evans?

  He was also now the chief scientist for Kirtland's Test Center. So he knew the reality behind a lot of the strange aerial phenomena that guys like Paul credited to aliens. So he's, he's both like open to believing, but also like, oh, but I know that I know what you're actually seeing and it's not aliens. It's this thing that we're, we're working on. Nevertheless, he was good at talking to Bennewitz while Doty hung back and took photos with a hidden camera for the NSA. Um, who is also involved in this, it's kind of murky exactly where AFOC begins and the NSA ends and like, there's some evidence the CIA is also gets involved. There's like, a lot of people are kind of interested in what Paul is doing. Um, but no one's interested

• 21:32Robert Evans?

  in Paul's evidence of alien interference. They're again worried about like, interested is whether or not he's actually like gotten any encrypted shit and they also think he might be useful because being an actually brilliant engineer working in the aerospace industry and someone who goes to these UFO conventions, he's kind of trusted within the UFO community. So if they want to get a lot of people to like pay attention to something other than the real shady shit they're doing at Kirtland, he might be able to convince them, right? He might be able to distract attention away from the real shit that's being done that they want to hide. Um, so yeah, uh, for the next year, Paul waits for updates from the military and he continues his special interest exploring

• 22:15Robert Evans?

  extraterrestrial phenomena. In May of the next year, 1980, a 26-year-old woman named Myrna Hanson called the state police to claim that she and her six-year-old had been accosted by alien visitors near Eagle Nest, New Mexico. The state troopers basically shrugged and handed the case over to the only cop they knew who dealt with this sort of shit, Gabe Valdez.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 22:36Robert Evans?

  If I'm remembering correctly, I believe Valdez's attitude is that Myrna was probably a plant? That's not clear to me. Again, a lot of sketchy shit's going on here.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Immediately doesn't trust the woman. Okay, kid.

• 22:49Robert Evans?

  Well, but also, this kind of shit was going on, so I don't know. Yeah.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  And he's like, man, this six-year-old fucking with me.

• 22:58Robert Evans?

  Uh huh. Right, right. So Gabe calls our boy Paul and they go off to meet Myrna. Now, by the start of the eighties, the science of hypnotic regression, which is not really a science, had taken off among people who believed or wanted to believe that they had been abducted by aliens, right?

• 23:13Speaker 01

  So let me turn you into a chicken first and then tell me if you saw the aliens or not.

• 23:16Robert Evans?

  Right. Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to hypnotize you and then walk you like, say a bunch of leading things that get you to tell a fun alien story, right?

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:26Robert Evans?

  You know, a lot of this stuff is, some similar shit's happening with like the satanic panic. We're just into the idea. I mean, there's a lot of this in the X-Files, right? This idea that people have memories locked away that this psychologist or psychiatrist, who definitely doesn't ever wind up fucking his patients can unlock.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:44Robert Evans?

  It's super cool.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, people aren't susceptible to being influenced to say things to

• 23:49Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  please somebody either.

• 23:51Robert Evans?

  Yes, nothing sketchy here whatsoever.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Definitely not.

• 23:55Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Speaking of things that aren't sketchy, sponsors of this podcast. Never, never. They would never do anything illegal, although we did just find out that what's that food box company has child labor. So I don't know.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  I'd be curious.

• 24:12Robert Evans?

  Uh, I don't know. Sophie, which one was it?

• 24:14Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 24:16Robert Evans?

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• 25:23Robert Evans?

  We're back. Sponsors love that sort of thing.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Hey, that's what they, that's their problem for going dynamic.

• 25:31Robert Evans?

  That's right. That's right. Um, so Gabe called our boy Paul and off they went to meet Myrna. Bennewitz, who is, is working for that civilian organization, not working for, but is like one of the head guys at APRO, that civilian looking into UFO things and like is also working with this actual sheriff's deputy. Partners, he and, and Gabe partner with a University of Wyoming professor who's lit, who's an ex, a quote unquote, expert in hypnotic regression. And this guy's name is literally Dr. Leo Sprinkle.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Fuck yeah.

• 26:06Robert Evans?

  Great stuff.

• 26:07Speaker 01

  What a name.

• 26:08Robert Evans?

  Great stuff.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Man, good on you, Leo, for making it to adulthood.

• 26:12Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Yeah. That's a real boy named Sue situation.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Leonardo Sprinkle.

• 26:17Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm. Leonardo Sprinkle. Yeah. Oh, fuck me. So in his book, Saucers, Spooks and Kooks, Adam Go-Rightly summarizes, Bennewitz, by this time, had convinced himself that the ETs were transmitting a mind control beam to repress Myrna Hanson's memories. Bennewitz believed that the ETs were likely beaming him in an attempt to disrupt his ongoing UFO probe. To thwart this extraterrestrial electronic harassment, Bennewitz arranged for Hanson's regression to take place in his 1979 Lincoln Town Car with multiple sheets of aluminum foil draped over the windows to deflect the dreaded alien beams. Bennewitz connected these perceived beams to cattle mutilations. It's so cool. I love this shit.

• 26:59Robert Evans?

  He's fucking wrapping his car in tin foil. No, he sees, the aliens are blocking her memory with the beams.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  He's married, right? Is he got a wife?

• 27:08Robert Evans?

  Oh yeah. He's got a wife and she is a long suffering. I, I don't know much about her, but a saint. I'll say that much. She's putting up with a lot.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  I know the power of disassociation this woman is capable of. Man.

• 27:20Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  This is like, honey, I need the car to go to the grocery store. No, I have to go interview this woman. I got, it's got the aluminum cable.

• 27:26Robert Evans?

  Where's our tin foil?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Get that tin foil out. Babe, we need it for the potatoes tonight. Absolutely not. I need it to protect us from aliens.

• 27:34Robert Evans?

  And again, he's, he's been talking to Doty for months at this point and Doty is kind of just like every, he's yes ending everything Paul says, right? Like, oh yeah, that sounds real, Paul. Yeah, definitely. Oh yeah. No, aluminum foil. Great idea, man. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Is this where aluminum foil comes from? Is this like the, the origin of that? Like this will block waves?

• 27:57Robert Evans?

  Part of it, yeah. I don't know that Paul is the only guy who starts it, but this is like, he is on the ground floor of the aluminum foil will stop the aliens from reading your mind thing. Yes, that's definitely fair to say. He's among, among, because he's very influential in this culture too.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, yeah.

• 28:15Robert Evans?

  So we can see at this point, he's already kind of starting to go over the edge, right?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:19Robert Evans?

  Paul begins writing analysis of Myrna's hypnotic regression, regression sessions, replete with lines like, "The alien does," all caps, "kill with the beam generally." Generally, huh? Kill with the beam, huh?

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. Where are those bodies? Where are those bodies, Pollyboy?

• 28:36Robert Evans?

  Okay, Paul.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:38Robert Evans?

  Now, the reality is that Hanson had just brought up a bunch of existent UFO lore during her sessions, right? Uh, she complained about missing time. She described being picked up in a tractor beam. She claimed an alien crewman had brandished a silver knife before cutting into a cow's chest. And she eventually described being taken to an underground base where a metallic device was put inside her brain. Now, this is part of why there's some theorizing that like, maybe she was a plant is, this is when, and Paul is the guy who really does more than anyone to start this, this is when you start getting these, these UFO conspiracies about underground bases. And they're usually either like, bases that our, our military shares with the aliens, or maybe the aliens run the base, you know?

• 29:23Robert Evans?

  There's some stories about them having fights with the army and whatnot, and these bases underground. But the, the real thing behind this is that a bunch of people in Albuquerque had watched, and like, this is something that Paul would have seen from his house, as the air force dug this massive underground nuclear storage base, like the largest weapons, underground weapons storage base ever, or at least at that point in time. And so people are like, wondering like, what's this really for? And the answer is pretty evil, like it's for nukes, but.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's a hole full of nukes. Yeah.

• 29:58Robert Evans?

  They, there's a lot of theories as to why. So Hanson also claimed, per Bennewitz, that she had picked up an STD described as a vaginal disease like Streptococci bacillus from the aliens. Paul wrote to his colleagues at the volunteer alien hunting group that, quote, "We are trying to culture it. No luck as yet. Also, it has evaded all of our known antibiotics with penicillin."

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Damn. Nobody's doing sex ed on these aliens. That's the problem. They gotta learn to wrap it up. Whatever it is, you gotta wrap it up, though.

• 30:29Robert Evans?

  Paul, you are an electrical engineer. I don't think that you are qualified to say that it's an un, like, it can't be, like, it's gotta be an alien STD. Maybe it's a normal one. Maybe it's just a normal one. You're not a doctor, Paul. First off, you should be giving this lady antibiotics, Paul. You're, again, not a doctor.

• 30:53Robert Evans?

  So he also revealed that Myrna was being, quote, "badly beaten on by the alien with their beams 24 hours a day." And once Myrna starts talking to him about how she's just constantly being beam attacked, Paul starts to believe that he too is being beaten on with beams. And he urges his colleagues who plan to do regression work to lock themselves in a car in a garage coated with three layers of aluminum foil to protect themselves from the beams. He's doing well, is what you'd say at this point. He's doing great. Paul, our boy Paul, very, very healthy, making rational choices.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Oh, Paul, you've fallen so far. You were doing so good, buddy.

• 31:34Robert Evans?

  So Doty is occasionally checking in with Paul, but he's also spending the intervening months, you know, '79, early 1980, working on another mark. And this guy is a journalist, or a quote-unquote journalist, depending on how you see it, with a reputation for, he is considered to be one of the more rigorous guys within the UFO community, by the UFO community. Take of that what you will. His name is George Moore. At least that's how he's described in Project Beta. But also, the author of Project Beta really likes this guy and is like impressed by him. So I don't feel the same way about Moore. Go Rightly's narrative makes him out to be like, less, more of like, one of an interchangeable number of UFO

• 32:19Robert Evans?

  kind of weirdos, although one who is, you know, reached out to by the government to spread disinfo. And Moore claims that, like, he's down with this, right? And the reason we're talking about him is that he is the co-author of that book, that first big book that gets like, UFOs back in vogue, right? He's interviewing that guy from Roswell. He's one of the guys who helps make Roswell into, like, the thing that it is in our culture, right?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Gotcha, yeah.

• 32:49Robert Evans?

  He's written a bunch of other stuff, you know, he's a very influential figure within this field. And that inspires Doty and a colleague to approach him. In July of 1980, Jim Lorenzen of APRO receives a letter with no return address claiming to tell the story of an 18-year-old Civil Air Patrol member who had sighted a UFO and then been threatened by a man in black named Mr. Huck. The young man had reported this to a Mr. Dobie at AFOSI, right? That's the Air Force, that's Doty's agency. So Lorenzen gets this letter and he thinks it's weird and he sends it to Bill Mitchell, who's the best journalist he knows, and, or Bill Moore, who's the best journalist he knows. And Moore is, immediately is like, oh, this is bullshit. And he knows it because he does some actual

• 33:34Robert Evans?

  journalism. Like, he reaches out to the named witness, and the witness is like, well, yeah, I saw some, like, weird lights, but I never was, I was never threatened by a man in black. Like, none of the rest of this is real.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Man, the tiniest amount of journalism.

• 33:48Robert Evans?

  Uh huh. Yeah. It really, that's all it takes, in a lot of cases.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Let me just double-check this.

• 33:53Robert Evans?

  Let me literally just ask this guy if this happened. Um, the letter was actually the creation of Doty and his colleagues at AFOSI. They were hoping to rope in somebody like, uh, Bill, right? Somebody smart enough to have credibility in the subculture, but also who might fall for a fake. Right? They didn't succeed in tricking him, but they continued fishing. In September of 1980, Moore finished a blockbuster book, The Roswell Incident, which is, yeah, that's one of the things that reignites public entrants.

• 34:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 34:24Robert Evans?

  So military intelligence gets very interested after this point. And while he's doing his book tour, he keeps getting calls at radio stations where like, guys will be like, hey, do you want to have a meeting? You know, I'm from a government intel agency and I'd like to talk. Um, and he is, he eventually agrees and he's met by a man who dresses and acts very much like a spy in the movie. Now, my opinion on what's happening here is that there's some two-way feedback. Moore desperately wants to be a journalist working on classified fringe, like X-Files kind of stories, right? And he wants to feel like he's part of this great game of spies and spooks. Now, the spooks he's talking to, these are real spies, but they're not the high-level operators working to unearth, you know,

• 35:08Robert Evans?

  Russian nuclear secrets or doing the fucking cool shit that they make movies about. There are some enlisted guys at the air force mostly, tasked with lying to rubes to cover up flight testing, right? And they, here's the thing, this is like a two-way street because they also want to feel like they're doing cool spy shit, right? And so Doty and George Moore, part of what they're both doing, because they're both much more rational than Paul is at this point, they're kind of LARPing together, in my opinion, you know? They're kind of like, well, Doty, I get to play like I'm this very serious man in black. And Moore is like, and I get to play like I'm fucking Fox Mulder almost, right? You know, the show's not on the air at this point, but that's what they're both getting here, right? And Moore is offered a deal by, by Doty and a colleague.

• 35:53Robert Evans?

  Help us out with some odd jobs, right? We need some like deniable work that you can do and we'll pass you some classified UFO information, right?

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Oh, I see. Got it. That's how that, yeah, yeah.

• 36:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah. The first dossier that Doty and his friend hand over is bullshit. Like George, again, does some minor reporting and is able to figure this out. From Bishop's book, quote, "After a few preliminaries, the question started. Well, what did you discover?" Moore threw the paper down on the table and trying to sound less annoyed than he actually was, replied, "This whole mess is a lie. None of these people exist." The agent and Doty looked at each other and smiled. "What's going on?" asked Moore. "You passed the test," said the man, whom he would eventually refer to with the code name Falcon. Within a few years, Moore and his colleagues would begin to assign code names to their growing coterie of contacts so that they could talk freely about developments without fear of identification if they were overheard. And, you know, maybe this was a test.

• 36:48Robert Evans?

  I think it's likely that they were like, okay, so we figured out this is bullshit. Let's just tell him that that was a test and then, you know, stroke his ego and he'll believe the next thing we say, maybe, right?

• 36:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. We're just going to keep refining from our side until we actually make him a believer and he'll feel great because he's passed all these tests. So he's going to start looking less and less because of how smart he believes he is too.

• 37:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah, right. And they hand him some shit and he'll admit like, I knew some of what I was putting out into the UFO community was bunk, but I think some of it's real too. And like, you know, he's being a shady character here as well. Now, unlike Paul Bennewitz, George is a pretty, I think, a mentally resilient guy. Like, he definitely is a believer to some extent, but I think he also, I don't think he takes it as seriously as Paul does, right? I don't think this is breaking his brain. I think he's having a good time, right?

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:43Robert Evans?

  My favorite story from Moore is that Doty and his partner apparently thought Moore might be gay and decided to test him by like, one day when they're hanging out, they like, park the car and Moore is like, and a bunch of men start walking past the car wearing tight pants or high heels and dresses that like, fit really weird and like, it doesn't seem like they would like, are comfortable in. And apparently this is a test because they want him to troll the gay bars of Santa Monica looking for a guy that the AFC wants for some reason.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 38:17Robert Evans?

  I don't know.

• 38:19Speaker 01

  It was a slow day in the office when they came up with that one. It was like, ah, well, we gotta do something this weekend, right? All right.

• 38:26Robert Evans?

  Doty and his colleagues, they get some of what they want out of Moore, right? He launders some info into the UFO community, some of the disinfo they want to distract from their real programs. But he's also not, he's, he's a little too smart, right? He's not willing to destroy himself publicly as much as was necessary for the kind of misinformation that they wanted to get out. And this is where Paul Bennewitz reenters the story. It is obvious by 80, 81 that this is a guy who is not well, but also he's respected and he is a guy who because of his tech acumen, might endanger some top secret operations. So the decision was basically made, let's fuck him up a little, right? Paul gets invited to give a speech at Kirtland and most of the attendees leave before he's done.

• 39:09Robert Evans?

  But like, one of them is like, oh, this is really interesting stuff, Paul. And that just lights his ego on fire. Paul, so happy to hear this. He applies for air force grants, which he does not receive, but he apparently gets an NSA grant. And I think that's maybe the NSA fucking with him because some real fuckery is about to happen here.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Hey, I love an ironic grant. It's ironic grant money still spends.

• 39:35Robert Evans?

  It's a little more messed up than even that. So Doty is now spending hours with Paul Bennewitz and he, he claims that they became friends and that he, he found the orders he received to spread lies to Paul personally distasteful. If you watch the documentary Mirage Man, you'll see a lot of Doty and he does express a degree of what kind of feels like real regret over what he did to Paul. He is also a spy and a professional liar. So I don't know that I believe he's really, or he just knows that he needs to perform regret, right? I think that's probably likelier. Yeah. So.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  What's, what do you think like the, like the internal notes of a person that constantly lies are like? Is it just like a notebook? Is it like a series of post-its around their house? How do you keep that shit straight? It sounds exhausting.

• 40:25Robert Evans?

  I, I don't, you know, one of the things that you get when you like read these stories and like the way in which a lot of the writers and quote unquote journalists who cover this stuff, the degree of credulity they have to these guys' stories, the thing that becomes clear to me is like, oh. This is your first time being lied to by a weirdo in the desert. Like, I spent a lot of my childhood and like, not childhood, my young adulthood in like, off-grid places, just listening to like, lies from dudes at bars and stuff. I've heard a lot of crazy stories that definitely aren't true, and that's a ton of fun.

• 41:00Robert Evans?

  But I think some of these, these people just like, decide they wanna live as if that's real. You know?

• 41:08Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 41:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  God, how many time, how many time shares do you think they own? It feels like-

• 41:12Robert Evans?

  Oh my god, these guys are, these guys are very, very vulnerable to time shares.

• 41:20Robert Evans?

  So on some of his early visits to hang with Paul, he's shown a complex computer system, Doty is, that Bennewitz had constructed and had his employees help him build to translate these encrypted messages, right? It's unclear what's actually happening. Is he just getting random static and then like, running it through an algorithm to like, create text based on that? And then, kind of going through it almost like it's one of those like, word puzzles? And just like, picking up words out of a feed of words that like, and then saying like, "Oh, this is, you know, a message from the aliens," right? Because some people will say like, "It looked like gibberish to me," but he would pull out, you know, five or six words from this like, paragraph of nonsense and say like, "This is the real message," right?

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:07Robert Evans?

  And this is a quote from Doty. "Bennewitz had the computer rigged up to antennas on his roof that included a small microwave dish, and he would look at the screen and there would be images on the screen that certainly wasn't an alien, but he was convinced that it was. I would actually tell him, 'I don't see anything,' and he said, 'I see it and I can hear them,' and he had these earphones he would put on, and he said, 'I can hear them talking,' and I asked Paul, 'What language are they speaking?' He said, 'They're speaking their language,' and he wrote a hundred-page document about the alien language. When he went out to Kirtland to give his presentation to all these generals, he presented them with that information." So the NSA, and this is probably where the NSA gets heavily involved and maybe why they give him that grant, because a plan gets hatched to gift Paul with a new computer,

• 42:52Robert Evans?

  right, that he's told is a gift from AFOC. Some accounts, maybe DODI offered him the machine. Other, the story you'll hear more often is that an Air Force consultant named Dr. J. Allen Hynek, who's a former scientific advisor for Project Blue Book and a big guy in the alien community now. I think he denies this, but you'll hear that too. We don't really know exactly what happened here, because I've also heard like the NSA did it. I've heard that the Air Force did it. I don't know. Adam Go-Rightly notes, "This computer had been provided at the behest of the US Air Force, and embedded in the software was a code that generated an alien language. With the aid of the Air Force computer, Benowitz

• 43:33Robert Evans?

  claimed he established constant direct communications with the alien, using a form of hexadecimal code with graphics and printout."

• 43:41Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 43:42Robert Evans?

  So what's happening here probably is that, because some versions of the story say that the NSA was literally set up across the street in a rented house, sending messages directly to Paul's computer. It was maybe a little less direct than that, but basically, he's got this machine that's probably programmed to allow them to send him fake messages from aliens. And so he starts getting messages like this. "Ground, ground. Women of Earth are needed. Flexible. The next discharge is our ship. Women do not command. The north. Among us. You have many friends. Water. Very short. Resist all attempts at alteration. Listen. Orange. Make peace." And Paul doesn't know what to make of this. He becomes convinced,

• 44:24Robert Evans?

  actually, that this is the aliens trying to trick him into thinking that they're peaceful, but he knows they're really dangerous.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Oh, he's so close. He's getting there.

• 44:32Robert Evans?

  Yeah, he's getting there. Yeah. Greg Valdez, who's Gabe's son, visited Bennewitz during this period and he described seeing the computer in use. He would type a question into the computer into a very complex for the time period form of a computer program, much like a current email. Much to everyone's surprise, he would get an answer to the questions he was asking. Sometimes he would get an immediate response, and sometimes it would take several minutes. He would even receive very crude and basic pictures or graphics on his computer of these aliens. Some of these pictures resembled birds with reptile features, and some resembled reptiles with bird features. During this question and answer session, Gabe instructed Paul to ask the simple question, "Where are you from?" Paul already knew the answer to the question, because he had already asked the question,

• 45:14Robert Evans?

  and he answered it verbally when a response came back on the computer. It simply said, "The Zeta Reticuli Star System."

• 45:22Robert Evans?

  So, they're now really fucking with this guy in a way that's very irresponsible.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  I mean, who is, I want to know who is writing this stuff, because that's the best job on the base.

• 45:32Robert Evans?

  Right. Maybe Doty. It's probably a team of guys, right? Because Doty, there's, you know, some evidence he was working with the NSA. So maybe it's multiple, it's almost certainly multiple people feeding him bullshit.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:46Robert Evans?

  But yeah, the result is that Paul grows convinced that the US government has signed a treaty with aliens, perhaps to breed some sort of hybrids, and they've been given real estate in an underground base near Dulce, New Mexico. This played the happy dual role of covering up ongoing weird experiments around Dulce. You know, there's that poison gas fucking hole. And diverting the attention of Paul and others away from Kirtland Air Force Base and towards somewhere less harmful, right, for their ends, you know?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

• 46:20Robert Evans?

  Now, during his communications with the ETs, Paul became convinced that there was a secret war going on. Dozens of base security in Dulce had been murdered by the aliens in a gunfight. He wrote up plans to lay siege to Dulce Base and began working to develop a sort of beam weapon that could kill aliens. Now-

• 46:38Speaker 01

  Oh, Paul. Wow, okay.

• 46:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah, now we're making beam weapons, huh, buddy?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He's like, I bet hope the aliens don't have aluminum foil.

• 46:46Robert Evans?

  Listen, folks, if you, if you have a friend who's making beam weapons to fight the underground aliens- I actually don't know how you should handle that situation, but probably don't give him a computer that lies to him.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  I think you gotta sign him up for bowling league or something. Get him bowling, yeah. Let's get some more social contact hobbies. Maybe. Fill out that social schedule a little bit more.

• 47:09Robert Evans?

  You know, see if he wants to play D and D. Maybe his imagination needs a little bit of a workout, you know?

• 47:14Speaker 01

  That might be great, yeah.

• 47:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Now, if a lot of this sounds like the overarching conspiracy plot for the first like five seasons of The X-Files, that's because this is almost certainly the direct inspiration for a lot of The X-Files, right? Like, this is in fact, because this is all happening in the 80s, not long before The X-Files starts, right?

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:33Robert Evans?

  So Bennewitz, as he's communicating with these aliens, he's gathering information on this secret underground base and this war he believes is going on underneath everyone's noses, he's sending back everything he's getting to Special Agent Doty, his good friend. And Doty dutifully forwards this up the chain and encourages Paul, "Keep digging, you know? You're getting close." He's doing the Deep Throat thing, right? He's like, "Keep digging, Agent Mortar," you know?

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. They're so close, you're gonna get there.

• 47:58Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. He's telling him that the aliens at Dulce Base had been responsible for what he'd seen over Kirtland, and he does this because he's like, "Oh yeah, man, you know what? I ran it up the flagpole and that underground base, that's why you were seeing those weird lights. Don't look near the Air Force Base. Keep hanging out around Dulce, you know? That's where the shit's going on, right?"

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:23Robert Evans?

  Go Rightly claims, "The ultimate intent of stringing Benowitz along, according to researchers like Greg Bishop and Christian Lambright, was to shift Benowitz's attention away from Kirtland to a remote area like the Archuleta Mesa near Dulce, where AFO side could ramp up their disinformation operation and more easily stage UFO events." Speaking of staged, you know what's not staged?

• 48:48Robert Evans?

  Is the reliability of our sponsors, that's completely legitimate, you know? Not, don't even question it, don't think about it. Hand over your credit card information. Text it to me. I'll buy stuff for you.

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• 50:04Robert Evans?

  And we're back. Okay, so, near the end of 1981, Richard Doty convinces his superiors to let him take Paul on a special helicopter flight around the Archulata Mesa. Since Paul is a pilot, and they, they see some stuff, you know? There's some, and apparently Doty claims that he and other agents put out props, right? To look like air events for the secret underground base and other evidence, right?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  This is so crazy, and now there's an art director involved at this point.

• 50:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah, there's an art director.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  It's become a full production, production, there's production meetings about like what to do to this poor man, like.

• 50:39Robert Evans?

  Yeah, they're, they're having pitches and stuff. They've got like pitch meetings on fucking with this guy. There's a whole, there's a prop team now.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh no.

• 50:49Robert Evans?

  So because Paul's a pilot, after this first trip, he follows this by doing his own recon flights over the area and he gets very obsessed with this. And- I have some questions. I don't know if I believe Doty entirely that like he's being handed all of the men and equipment necessary to carry out a staged operation on the scale he describes. But also, it's possible, and in fact, maybe likely, Paul is sometimes seeing some real stuff. Like, he reports seeing what he describes as a crashed delta wing aircraft. And in this area at this time, they're working on prototypes of the stealth bomber, which is a looks like that. And in fact, Greg Bishop's project beta, like, that's his

• 51:33Robert Evans?

  basic conclusion is that like, Paul might have seen like, some of the testing stages of the prototype of like, the stealth bomber, right? And maybe that was like, part of what Doty was doing is if we get this guy to talk about, if we if we show, if we if we let this guy see a little bit of the real stealth bomber program, but convince him it's aliens, then anybody who's talking about like a delta wing aircraft, right, will be like, oh, you're just talking about a UFO, not this actual thing that we're working on, right?

• 52:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Let's get everybody off the scent once again.

• 52:04Robert Evans?

  So maybe that's what's happening. Or maybe it was just an easy thing to make look like a plane from the air, shit like this. They do this in World War II a bunch. We do it. And actually, the Nazis do it too, where you'll like, make basically fake out of like, wood and shit and spray paint, tanks and stuff. So people think there's an army where it isn't, right? So it's not, yeah.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Where I'm from in Maryland, there's a there's a fake cop car on like, one of the highways that is up just to slow you down.

• 52:32Robert Evans?

  Yeah, love that shit. Now, there are other claims about what happened to Paul and his wife during this period that are more questionable. One write up I found by the cyber pathetic project claims that Paul and his wife developed red sores, or perhaps some sort of rashes on their body. I've seen that a few times. The Cyberthetic project describes itself as a token project with a mission to unite holders so that they can communicate in an open forum on the blockchain without fear of being judged or censored. So you'd be right about questioning it as a source. That said, this is all a lot of fun, so I'm gonna quote from it anyway. Just, you know, lot of salt here. It has since been revealed that the NSA was in possession of sensitive documents concerning advanced technologies such as active denial systems and active

• 53:17Robert Evans?

  denial technology. These technologies were apparently being developed by Sandia Labs and Kurtland Air Force Base with the aim of producing a non-lethal weapon that could be used against enemies. Were they using this technology on the Bennewitz family? The answer to that is also unclear. What is clear is that Paul and his wife were being physically impacted by his research into UFOs. And that's maybe not, like, I don't, I think probably likelier than some sort of weird beam weapon is that Paul is losing his mind and he and his wife are both very stressed out by this and convinced that they're being targeted by aliens. And they have like shingles, a stress rash, something like all sorts of shit, you know?

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It feels like they probably would have like broken out in some sort of like, yeah, stress rash of some kind. Like, yes, that's fair. I have several friends from the California fires that had them a week ago. Imagine prolonged experience to potential aliens for years. Yeah, you have rashes too.

• 54:12Robert Evans?

  Right. I don't think that that's, it's all unlikely that something like that is the case here. And yeah, so as he grew more obsessed with seeking out the truth, Paul's business declined, which is another reason why maybe he's dealing with some stress-related problems.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  God, his poor office manager.

• 54:30Robert Evans?

  Oh, my God.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  I just need you to sign off on this.

• 54:34Robert Evans?

  Paul, we just really need to make this censor, man. Could we, okay, you've got the whole team working on translating alien speech. All right, well, I'm gonna maybe print out some resumes.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 54:46Robert Evans?

  In 1978, Thunder Scientific had 30 employees. By 1981, the number was down by almost half. There were, he starts hiding like guns and knives around his home as the 1980s wore on because he's just incredibly paranoid now. And he continues to attend UFO events throughout the mid to late 1980s. His yarn about Dulce Base, which was almost certainly invented, or at least heavily egged on by Richard Doty, had been a magnificent success. In 1987, John Lear, a prominent ufologist, stated that he had independently confirmed elements of Bennewitz's story, right, that there's this underground base at Dulce. Several books in the late 1980s published their own variants of the story,

• 55:30Robert Evans?

  which helped to spark a paranoid belief in secret underground alien bases that is still a significant part of QAnon today. Like, a lot of QAnon guys believe that there's a base under the Getty in Los Angeles.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  That's why I didn't burn.

• 55:44Robert Evans?

  That's why I didn't burn. They kept it safe. That's where they keep the kids.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Center or villa?

• 55:50Robert Evans?

  I think it's the center. Either way, do a pizza gate at both places. Sophie, you know what?

• 55:56Robert Evans?

  No, that didn't end well for that guy.

• 55:59Robert Evans?

  There's a lot that's sad about this, but one of the worst things is that Paul had almost certainly stumbled upon a very real and very important conspiracy at Kirtland. See, today, Kirtland Air Force Base is a major testing site for advanced drone technology, including weapon systems to defeat drone swarms and other experimental tech. We know that in 1980, a black mystery vehicle was spotted at the base. This is right around the same time Paul is making his initial reports. Sophie's going to show you a picture of this mystery vehicle that is being tested at Kirtland Air Force Base when Paul is observing shit, right? It looks kind of like an SR-71, but it's like a drone version almost. This was apparently what's now, we know this was called at the time TD,

• 56:42Robert Evans?

  a TDUX tow target. A write-up in the war zone describes it as "a high-speed towed aerial target to support the testing of infrared and electronic countermeasures", or IRCM and ECM, respectively. Something like this would both look very weird in the sky and also might put off some of the signals that Paul was, you know, receiving, right?

• 57:07Robert Evans?

  Now, I don't know if this is what he saw. It was other stuff, because other shit is being tested at Kirtland, including pre- Cursors to our modern drone program, right? Paul very likely came across evidence of the development of unmanned weapon systems that have gone on to kill huge numbers of people. No aliens need to be involved at all for this to both make sense and be a real conspiracy theory. It's also very likely Dody wasn't fully in the loop as to what was being developed there because he wouldn't need to be. And in fact, the more he believed the bullshit he was pushing on Paul, the safer the real secrets were. In 1988. Yep, yep. Cool stuff. The drone program, it always comes back to that.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Hooray. So exciting, but they make pretty firework alternatives. It's fine.

• 57:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's all good stuff.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, don't worry. They can form Steve Harvey in the sky.

• 57:59Robert Evans?

  Yeah, they can make Steve. It's fine.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  They should have done that. That, what if the aliens love Steve Harvey? Oh my God.

• 58:06Robert Evans?

  Paul Bennewitz went to the Air Force. I keep seeing Steve Harvey's face in the night sky. I don't know what's going on.

• 58:15Robert Evans?

  In 1988, Paul published plans for an assault on Dulce Base, which he'd become convinced was the nexus of an alien plan to control the world. That same year, he became convinced that his wife was working with the aliens or perhaps in control of the entire alien conspiracy.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Your wife.

• 58:31Robert Evans?

  Yeah, she's really putting, she's really going through it here.

• 58:37Robert Evans?

  And in this passage from Go Rightly's book, which is based on interviews with Bill Moore and Richard Doty, he describes a profoundly ill man. Both Bill Moore and Richard Doty on separate occasions witnessed firsthand Bennewitz's mounting paranoia, describing him as spun out and barricaded inside his homes, chain smoking cigarettes, waiting in fevered anticipation for the final E.T. showdown. In Project Beta, Greg Bishop recounted, Bennewitz told Moore that after the aliens injected him, they would make him drive his car into the desert in the middle of the night, but he couldn't remember what he did after he got there. Around this time, Bennewitz's family committed him to a mental health facility for nervous exhaustion.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 59:14Robert Evans?

  And you will sometimes hear it errantly stated that he commits suicide as a result of this. He does not. Thankfully, he doesn't have as sad a story as it might. Paul gets out after about a month, and he seems to have pulled himself out of the UFO community after this point. He and his wife stay together. They're married more than 50 years, and he lives until 2003. So, you know, kind of a happy ending, but boy, it didn't, it almost wasn't.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, for real. Man. Also, shout out to the place he was committed, apparently.

• 59:52Robert Evans?

  Apparently, they did the job. Yeah.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  That's serious deep programming.

• 59:56Robert Evans?

  Paul, Paul, man, you gotta stop. You gotta stop using the computer the NSA gave you.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have a computer man. Man, some poor doctor just cracked all of their knuckles and said, all right, let's get into it.

• 1:00:10Robert Evans?

  Paul, we need to have a long conversation about things that are real and things that aren't. So, Richard Doty would eventually retire from the Air Force and spend much of his retirement and golden years doing the UFO convention circuit. He came, he will say that he was hired to consult on two seasons of The X-Files and that he wrote the screenplay for an episode. He's not credited as the writer for that episode, but, you know, his stuff definitely helps inspire The X-Files, right? Like, he is, he is for sure involved in what becomes The X-Files purely because of like his role in UFO culture.

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  I'm sure he wrote a script, but.

• 1:00:49Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I'm sure he wrote a script, yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  A lot of people have written scripts.

• 1:00:55Robert Evans?

  And he is, he's a member of a couple of different organizations now. He's a very controversial figure within the UFO community because he both definitely worked for Air Force Intelligence and tells a lot of stories about seeing aliens. He claims to have literally seen them and also admits that he lied about aliens for years to a guy who nearly lost his mind forever. I wouldn't trust him. But for an idea of how, of how Richard Doty presents himself now, here's a clip from him on the New Realities YouTube channel, being interviewed by a UFOology author named Alan Steinfeld.

• 1:01:32Speaker 06

  I mean, you're no longer working for the Air Force Intelligence, right? But

• 1:01:38Speaker 07

  That's right. I don't work for Air Force Intelligence.

• 1:01:43Speaker 06

  Well, don't be offended by this question, but how do we know you're still not working for them? And you're just saying you're not working for them?

• 1:01:52Speaker 07

  Well, there's a lot of controversy over that, but number one, I wouldn't have any reason to. I'm I left the agency, left the intelligence agency back in 1988. Although I people bring up the fact that I was brought back to active service in 91 and 93, but that had nothing to do with UFOs or disinformation. It had to do with what I did in Europe when after the wall fell. So I work as a private investigator. I have no connections, official connections with the United States government or intelligence community.

• 1:02:34Speaker 07

  I do have a lot of friends that still work within the intelligence community and they feed me a lot of information that I share with you. I mean, I shared it with you at the UFO mega con.

• 1:02:46Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think he's still, and I even found an interview where he's like, talked about, like, he's asked about, like, because Tom DeLonge of Blink 182 is a big guy and is involved with Dodi and one of the organizations he's in. And one of the interviews is like, are you doing a Paul Bennewitz to Tom DeLonge? He's like, of course not, I would never.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  I absolutely would never do that.

• 1:03:10Robert Evans?

  I think he might be doing a Paul Bennewitz on a couple of guys. Maybe that's just fun for him. Yeah.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  It reminds me of, what's the, um, in the Tonya Harding, in the assault of Nancy Kerrigan, Tonya Harding, the Galouli and his idiot friend, the amount of bullshit that they just.

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  Believe about themselves and talk about like, yeah, like the other guy Eckert, he like talked about how he like was a special forces guy and had all this shit made up. You're like, damn, you believe this, though.

• 1:03:45Robert Evans?

  I've heard so many fun lies about being special forces from dudes like, especially out in like the mountains, like every old man you meet who like will tell you about all of the crazy shit he did in Vietnam. And it's, it's just always, it's always nonsense. Like, I know a guy who's out, we're in the little mountain town where I used to live, who was a SEAL Team member during Vietnam. And his reaction is very different, which was like, he handed me a book that was written about like him and his colleagues. And it was like, you want to know anything, just read that. I don't like talking about it.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you've actually done any of this stuff, you're like, it's not, it's not what it's not the movies, buddy.

• 1:04:26Robert Evans?

  It was kind of a bad time.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have a lot to answer for and process.

• 1:04:32Robert Evans?

  Didn't like it. Not, not happy with how that all went.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  No, no, not worth the free beer to talk about it jovially. No.

• 1:04:40Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Anyway, well, that's the aliens. Or not, but maybe there's aliens. I don't know. This is not conclusive on that matter, one way or the other. But there's definitely a bunch of spy agencies who will lie to you and destroy your brain if they think it will help them hide a fact that they're making some fucked up shit to kill people in other countries.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Of course. Maybe the alien was inside of you, listener, the entire time.

• 1:05:09Robert Evans?

  The real alien was always the military industrial complex.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Because, you know, define what an alien is. It's something that works against like the good of humanity. Then in that case, the government is run by aliens. I don't know. Who knows? Who knows what's out there? Or in here, apparently. But what is out there and what is in here? Are your pluggables, Brandy?

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  Bam, what a transition.

• 1:05:38Robert Evans?

  Nice work.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Thanks, Sophie. Um, yeah, you can, uh, you can find me online at Brand Dazzle on all of the platforms, uh, including the new ones and the old ones. Um, uh, my podcast is called Lady to Lady, comes out every Wednesday and has been around for 13 years. Um, Burn This Records is my comedy label that I run where I put out amazing comedy albums and people all over the country, uh, that are very funny and also good people. Uh, and then, um, I have my own album coming out on that label, uh, at the, in the middle of, um, uh, March, and, uh, I would love for you to buy it. That'd be amazing.

• 1:06:13Robert Evans?

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Brandyposy.com has all the information for all of the things. Um, but yeah, come say hi. I, if you're a fan of the show, you'll like me, I promise. So come on over.

• 1:06:24Robert Evans?

  All right, everybody. Well, that's the episode. Until next time. Again, folks, I say this every time, head to Kirtland Air Force Base, get a camera out and just start filming and go slowly insane. Get a pilot's license, fly over some random Mesa, you know? Just, just, just, just do some shit, you know? Why not?

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Nothing bad can happen.

• 1:06:49Robert Evans?

  Look, the world's going to hell in a handbasket. You might as well lose your mind about some alien shit.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  If you want to test your relationship, go down an alien hole.

• 1:07:00Robert Evans?

  See if your wife really loves you, you know? This is the only way to know. It's the only way to know.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards.

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