PART 2 : Immaculate Constellation : A UFO Whistleblower's Journey - Matthew Brown

Why would anyone voluntarily endanger their career, reputation, freedom, and their life by stepping forward as a UFO whistleblower? For former Department off Defense and State Department analyst Matthew Brown, it was an excruciating decision. Brown tried to follow the rules and the law by reporting what he had learned about an unacknowledged special access program dubbed Immaculate Constellation. He says he repeatedly tried to bring it to the attention of superiors but found himself blocked at every step. In Part One of an exclusive interview with Jeremy and George, Brown said he was aware that by going public, he was risking everything. Now, in Part Two, he reveals more about the stunning documents he read, the depth and scope of the UFO coverup, and the methodical, by-the-book process he followed before making the fateful decision to go public and reveal his identity. The Department of Defense, its All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office (AARO), members of Congress, and the public interested in UFOs have all urged UFO whistleblowers and witnesses to step forward and share any information or evidence they may possess, and to not worry about possible consequences. Brown knows his career and security clearances are now toast because the system itself is designed to discourage truth and transparency. WATCH PART 1 HERE : https://youtu.be/ZAxI-LDrDqA WATCH PART 2 HERE : ⁠https://youtu.be/4n_bRtnIP14⁠ WATCH PART 3 HERE : ⁠https://youtu.be/PtBVAxoHeaY⁠ GOT A TIP? Reach out to us at ⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠ ••• Watch Corbell's six-part UFO docuseries titled UFO REVOLUTION on TUBI here : ⁠⁠https://tubitv.com/series/300002259/tmz-presents-ufo-revolution/season-2⁠⁠ Watch Knapp’s six-part UFO docuseries titled INVESTIGATION ALIEN on NETFLIX here : ⁠⁠https://www.netflix.com/title/81674441⁠⁠ ••• For breaking news, follow Corbell & Knapp on all social media. Extras and bonuses from the episode can be found at ⁠⁠WeaponizedPodcast.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:56Speaker 02

  In part two of our interview with the author of the Immaculate Constellation Report.

• 1:00George Knapp?

  So the idea that it could have been a war game, could it have been something, you know, some of these UFOs that have been seen over nuclear missile bases, silos and things of that sort? There, the implication has been, as with drones, that it's a readiness test of some sort.

• 1:13Speaker 04

  If that had been the only thing I had seen and none of the rest of this saga had happened, we wouldn't be talking. And I go and I have a meeting with Sissy,

• 1:25Speaker 04

  give them the paper, including the various compartments and programs that they could themselves look into to access the same information that I saw, which is ridiculous that Congress has no access to. When I was in USDI, I read the transcripts of Sean Kirkpatrick briefing Senator Rubio, Senator Warren, and Senator Gillibrand on the results of his investigation in his congressionally tasked ARO report. And those transcripts, which were supposed to be open kimono,

• 1:59Speaker 04

  here's the truth, Mr. Senator, Mr. Senator. Sean Kirkpatrick absolutely distorted.

• 2:05George Knapp?

  Saying what? What did he say that was a lie?

• 2:08Speaker 04

  You know, I read these transcripts once

• 2:11Speaker 04

  and immediately knew that.

• 2:18Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, veiled threat?

• 2:20Speaker 04

  No, I knew that I was now something else. I was in, I had inside knowledge into the deception of our government by elements of our intelligence community.

• 2:38Jeremy Corbell?

  People will be so curious, so what comes on the fourth page? Talk us through the pages, just go ahead.

• 2:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I mean, like I said, the second series, the second and third examples were less interesting to me, but you know, they are images of orbs transiting from coastal facilities out to the ocean and sort of describing, you know, what those facilities were. As I think the unspoken implication of why something like this would be out there. And yes, just a similar or just a bit, not vague, but a general description of we observed this coming from this direction or from where this facility, sensitive facility was, left over the ocean.

• 3:29Speaker 04

  You know, this was our task asset and it happened on this date.

• 3:33Jeremy Corbell?

  Anything really striking in the rest of that document that really highlighted to you? Anything else in that document that was really striking?

• 3:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the last example of the four was back to Russia again, this time, I believe in the Atlantic Ocean. And it shows a, another Russian intelligence vessel underway this time at night. The image is green infrared.

• 4:01Speaker 04

  And it shows above this Russian vessel, a, another black triangle.

• 4:07Speaker 04

  But whereas the first example in the Pacific was, you know, an equilateral, large, pretty stunning object that was of comparable size to the vessels below it. This was a more, definitely smaller, is smaller than the vessel and it was more angular in shape and sort of swept back. And it was also accompanied by text saying that there was no indication that the Russian vessel was responding in any way to this ship hovering above it. And this, it did not describe in this instance whether it had miraculously appeared or if it was tailing the ship.

• 4:42Jeremy Corbell?

  A triangular in shape and hovering.

• 4:45Speaker 04

  Well, hovering probably matching speed though, too, with the ship.

• 4:49Jeremy Corbell?

  Like USS Russell, other people argue, and I don't care what shape it is, you know, when you have something with rangefinders off of a ship that goes with it, stops with the ship, continues. So this is not a new thing, this idea of triangular by angle of observation pyramid in shape, some would say.

• 5:06Speaker 04

  Could be.

• 5:07Jeremy Corbell?

  Right? So that's striking and you saw that, too?

• 5:09Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah, and that was the last example. After that was sort of a summary slide or two about just recapping like the fact that these incidents are, we are collecting, sorry, we are collecting these incidents around the world, that we are focused on UAP RV collection incidents by tasked and untasked assets and the collection and analysis of those data streams.

• 5:35Jeremy Corbell?

  So sometimes we know where it's going to be, tasked assets, sometimes we just happen to capture them, untasked assets.

• 5:41Speaker 04

  Correct, correct. And I think a good example is in that brief itself where the orb incidents appeared to be untasked assets. They were not there to collect on orbs, they were there to collect on something else and they happened to catch something. Whereas the two Russian incidents, we were there, we were there to watch the Russians and the Russians' interactions with this technology.

• 6:01George Knapp?

  Wow. So your suspicions after seeing this 12-page report is that these are freeze frames of what are?

• 6:09Speaker 04

  Videos, yeah.

• 6:10George Knapp?

  Videos, so somewhere there's a bigger collection of this stuff that's also very interesting.

• 6:14Speaker 04

  Absolutely, yeah. Like.

• 6:20Speaker 04

  You know, there was informal collections of this stuff by interested people on on those systems and there's absolutely a, you know, professional mission task databases for this.

• 6:33Jeremy Corbell?

  Okay, so you've seen, now you've had this exposure, you try to do the right thing and you take great steps to try to do, it takes a little while for you.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  It does.

• 6:45Jeremy Corbell?

  So, so explain that to me, what you tried to do. So there you go. You see something that you know shouldn't be there on that archive. You know, what happens? What do you do?

• 6:54Speaker 04

  Absolutely nothing. In fact, the first time I read that, I don't know what I just read and if it's even real. Maybe somebody just made this thing.

• 7:02Jeremy Corbell?

  Okay, well, explain that. So you can, it would be like a joke or something?

• 7:05Speaker 04

  Or they put it together literally for a war game, right? They had maybe created an imaginary program that maybe they wanted to have, right? Or a desired capability or something that was a representative of the true thing to be used in.

• 7:23Jeremy Corbell?

  Is that normal or common now? That's a weird thought.

• 7:26Speaker 04

  It is a weird thought, but this is what's going through my head because it's so bizarre.

• 7:30Jeremy Corbell?

  Okay.

• 7:30Speaker 04

  And.

• 7:32Jeremy Corbell?

  You're like, no way.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm going through everything, all the options why it's not what it is.

• 7:38Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so I do nothing for some time and then we, our office gets a training on like, or a refresh training, but this was new in my career. So my first time on what to do in cases of spillage for SAP material. And I realized, well, no matter how weird this is, this has all the hallmarks of what you guys just said is a big fucking deal. So, you know, I can either pretend like I didn't open and read this thing 80 times and hope that IT doesn't notice that either, or I can report it myself. So I did that, or I tried to do that.

• 8:16Jeremy Corbell?

  You tried to report it. You read it a bunch as it's fascinating and then you try to report it. So what does that look like when you try to report that? What'd you do?

• 8:23Speaker 04

  So the first time I went just quietly to my, I guess, my immediate supervisor, a retired Army Colonel.

• 8:32Jeremy Corbell?

  So you go to your supervisor's superior?

• 8:35Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. I gotta say, hey, I gotta show you something in our closet. Uh, our whole office is a skiff, but inside the skiff is another tiny skiff.

• 8:43Jeremy Corbell?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  Um, and I think we have like a spillage thing. And so I need to show it to you because this is apparently what we're supposed to do. Show it to your boss and then follow the reporting chain and you sign, you sign a paper and that's how it's supposed to be handled all by the book.

• 8:57Jeremy Corbell?

  And they just trained you on it and you're like, okay, here's what I'm supposed to do.

• 9:00Speaker 04

  Right, exactly. So I've tried to follow that while also being, you know, quiet about it. Um, take him in and he's like, okay, so, so show me what you found. I pull up that slide and, uh, you know, the first, the first slide, just because it's so generic, gets no reaction. But then going to like the, maybe the second slide or even the third slide, he's just like, okay, stop like, stop. Did you read this? And I don't answer, but I just look him in the eye. And I look at the screen and I'm like, of course I read this.

• 9:32Jeremy Corbell?

  That's how you know it exists.

• 9:33Speaker 04

  And he definitely picked up on that and he, uh, the conversation ended with him saying, uh, delete it. And he left the room and we never spoke of it again.

• 9:40George Knapp?

  He's cutting you some slack there in essence.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  Without me knowing, yes.

• 9:43George Knapp?

  Yeah, you didn't read it. Uh, so you're not in any trouble.

• 9:47Jeremy Corbell?

  And here, delete it.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  And also, as I came to learn, um, you know, it, certain material, uh, you get exposed to and it's, you're kind of marked for life that that happened and, uh, it's probably not good for your career at a minimum.

• 10:02Jeremy Corbell?

  We've seen other whistleblower friends of ours have, uh, experiences like that. They're marked.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. Didn't realize that at the time. So that happened. Uh, I sit on that for a few days. Didn't sit right with me because I'm still thinking like, well, that's not what we're supposed to do. I could do that. But everything, supposedly everything we do on those systems, every click, every keystroke is monitored. So like, I just, I need to, self-preservation, I need to do the, keep doing the right thing here. So I go to his boss or his boss's boss. I, I changed my approach. I don't say what it is. I don't show it to them. Um, I don't print it out. And I just say, ma'am, we have a spillage incident. I believe it's sap material. Could you please provide guidance on how to handle this?

• 10:48Speaker 04

  And so through that, I was connected to our parent offices, a special access program control officer.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  Had a meeting set up to go meet with them a few days later. That happened.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  I go to that meeting

• 11:08Speaker 04

  in a SAPF, so where this material is supposed to be stored and handled. And this person says, okay, show me the material. So I sit down.

• 11:18Jeremy Corbell?

  Round two.

• 11:18Speaker 04

  Right, exactly.

• 11:19Jeremy Corbell?

  You're showing the material.

• 11:20Speaker 04

  I sit down, I pull it up. It's like, it's right there at the top of the shared servers, though I'm not like, it's almost instant, like this, right there. I pull it up, I start scrolling through from the bottom, I get no reaction, then he says, okay, let me look at it. He takes my chair. He goes through, he scrolls through it, no reaction on his face. I'm watching him very closely at this point, because I'm exceptionally curious about all of this. No reaction. Then he scrolls through it again, and he makes a very deliberate scene where he pauses on Lou Elizondo's slide. And starts guffawing in a very non-believable way and saying, somebody's having a joke. This, you don't need to worry about this, you can go.

• 12:06Speaker 04

  And that's not the reaction I was expecting. I was expecting to, at the very least, sign the paper, right, saying, you know, this incident happened.

• 12:12Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 04

  Reported it, signed it.

• 12:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's done. So, you know, I tried to ask him, like, are you sure? Like, do I need to sign anything? He's like, no, you can go. And so I left that room. And I never, ever had anything about that incident come up again.

• 12:32Jeremy Corbell?

  Except immediately you went and checked again for the file.

• 12:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, I went upstairs and I went to see what had happened and it was gone.

• 12:39George Knapp?

  So the idea that it could have been a war game, could it have been something, you know, some of these UFOs that have been seen over nuclear missile bases, silos and things of that sort? The implication has been, as with drones, that it's a readiness test of some sort. We're going to put some secret operation, unexpected, and see how people and systems react to it. Could that have been what was going on here?

• 13:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, it is something that, you know, on the surface level appears plausible. I do not believe that to be the case, given the circumstances of how it was located, the fact that hundreds of people had access to that system, the fact of its generic labeling. It wasn't, you know, there's no red flags on that to draw any fish to the bait, as it were, to catch somebody. And then the process of reporting it, you know, there's no outcome from that, besides apparently making a lot of people pissed off and worried and kind of scared.

• 13:39Jeremy Corbell?

  Let me add to that, something that we noticed, and I believe it's true reporting, which is that when David Grush testified, Immaculate Constellation, before the world ever knew those words, was searched on Google a ton. Additionally, over the research and time and sources that we have, you know, it has been confirmed to us under no uncertain terms that that was the name of a program with that nature. So if we're looking at it as like a LARP kind of thing, we get to the point where there's too many outside confirmation after the fact as well as that.

• 14:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. If that had been the only thing I had seen and none of the rest of this saga had happened,

• 14:20Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  we wouldn't be talking.

• 14:22Jeremy Corbell?

  Totally.

• 14:23George Knapp?

  You wrote in a paper that was submitted to Congress, and we'll go to a lot of details in that, but that this was deeply disturbing overall. Why was it disturbing to you?

• 14:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, so as time passed, it became disturbing, especially after the sort of...

• 14:47Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  The process of Grush coming forward left a wake on the inside, too. People were tracking that who weren't even involved, but were able to see sort of the distortions on the inside.

• 15:26Jeremy Corbell?

  Distortions of truth.

• 15:28Speaker 04

  Exactly, and but also, you know, bureaucracies and offices behaving weirdly around this subject and sort of the movements for reaching out to Congress to get legislation drafted that eventually became that Intelligence Authorization Act and that first NDAA where they provided whistleblower protections. I think that that was one of the moments that really started to convince me that this was this was not under our government's control.

• 16:06Jeremy Corbell?

  That's the core of why we're talking today.

• 16:08Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 16:08Jeremy Corbell?

  What do you mean?

• 16:12Speaker 04

  Just on an emotional level and blunt analysis, why the hell is Congress passing a law asking for UFO insiders from the intelligence and military community to come talk to them directly under amnesty about something that doesn't exist isn't an issue. And if it does exist and is an issue, but it's secret, apparently our most sensitive congressional committees are not briefed on this.

• 16:39Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah, I find it at the core disturbing. You having Arrow even ask for whistleblowers to come forward to them, having Congress asking for whistleblowers to come under amnesty to come to them. Yeah, something's rotten with that.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, and then also at the same time, seeing the the sort of UAP Task Force and its slow death on the inside and the death of the, you know, sort of open exchange of ideas and problem solving going on is another data point that pointed to something rotten. And the last one that really sealed it and really convinced me that I need to find a way to Bring this to Congress, no matter, no matter how small it might be, it apparently matters. Was when I was in USDI, I read the transcripts of Sean Kirkpatrick briefing Senator Rubio,

• 17:31Speaker 04

  Senator Warren, and Senator Gillibrand on the results of his investigation in his congressionally tasked ARO report. And those transcripts, which were supposed to be open kimono, here's the truth, Mr. Senator, Mr. Senator, Sean Kirkpatrick absolutely distorted, downplayed, and can't prove it, but I would say outright lied to, to the people who have direct responsibility for him. Saying what? What would, what did he say that was a lie? So it's more of a lie of the whole. They picture. The big picture, right? In the meeting, it's, you know, oh, we, you know, Congressman Rubio, you know, we've, we've heard about this incident.

• 18:15Speaker 04

  We just don't have enough data to go on it to really know what this is. We don't have any way of really figuring out what's going on. It could just be an anomaly. In fact, it's most likely anomaly. So starting with an acknowledgement that, you know, here, you, oh yeah, you have some data, but we have the insight and the scientific expertise to make you feel at ease. Nothing to see here, folks. Move on. Exactly. Although there was also political discussion involved in historic discussion. And, you know, I read these transcripts once and immediately knew that. Yeah. Veiled threat? No, I'm, I knew that I was now something else.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  I was in, I had inside knowledge into the deception of our government by elements of our intelligence community. My blood ran cold of specific point in that transcript where Mr. Rubio is discussing the legacy program. This was a subject of direct discussion with Sean Kirkpatrick in these meetings. And based on Mr. Kirkpatrick's replies about as vague as they were, but unable to escape the truth of. The Legacy Program. Mr. Rubio's response was, well, what the hell is the executive branch doing? Have they been running this for 60 years without congressional oversight? I might be paraphrasing a little, but that's near enough verbatim.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  And I saw that line and I I basically closed that file and had a pretty sleepless night.

• 19:50George Knapp?

  All right, you said your blood ran cold, meaning you're pissed, you're spooked.

• 19:53Speaker 04

  Scared.

• 19:54George Knapp?

  What is scared?

• 19:55Speaker 04

  Scared.

• 19:55George Knapp?

  Scared for your country.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  I just think in general, it's like, I don't know, there was nothing associated. It was just like immediate, oh, fuck.

• 20:05George Knapp?

  Good response.

• 20:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:06George Knapp?

  And you now know this is real. This is a cover up. They are lying about this stuff.

• 20:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, at that point, I definitely knew the phenomenon was absolutely real. I knew we were tracking it. I knew we had lots of resources on it for some time. But getting to that final, like, step in the ladder, it seemed like, oh, and the cover up is real. And it's inside the house.

• 20:28George Knapp?

  Give us a sense of it. You read one document that said Immaculate Constellation and it had some images with it. What additional information did you come across that reinforced your belief that there is a big surveillance program collecting this stuff?

• 20:42Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, one is just the fact of its existence, right? In the brief, it's talking about the general mission. It's giving examples, but it's clearly talking about a collection mission. And then there's there's programs that have since become public. The most relevant one in this case is the NRO Sentient Program that kind of, at least in the open source way, demonstrates how you don't need a massive workforce to do this anymore. You don't need buildings without windows for acres to people taking this information and sanitizing it, making it sure it gets to the right people without the wrong things in it. And that's just on the inside.

• 21:22Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, like you don't also need exposure to a bunch of human beings with individual egos and identities. To be clear, there's kind of AI siphoning off of data and information to keep it compartmentalized without spying of human eyes even within our intelligence agencies, if I'm understanding it.

• 21:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a bit of a Janus, a two-faced god. It takes things in one end and makes sure you hear what you need to hear out the other.

• 21:42Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, and you suspect that UAP, when that data is collected and brought in and ingested, that there is a whitewashing, or not whitewashing of it, there is a clarifying of that stuff to make sure the general people in the intelligence community don't see it.

• 21:59Speaker 04

  Absolutely, and that's a longstanding practice for, especially for imagery intelligence. Just, nothing about UFOs, you know, back in the Cold War days, if something, a facility or an aerospace platform was seen that, sorry, was collected, you know, there would be either, there'd be a full version, right, for those who needed it. But if you just needed to see the facility, but maybe not the plane, you know, those would be manually excised. Now we have tools to do that for us.

• 22:29George Knapp?

  Could you describe then for us how you think this works, whatever the name for it is now, how it works? Did we have an AI system in 2018 that could do what we're describing?

• 22:40Speaker 04

  Well, we know we did. Those documents have since become public.

• 22:44Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, sentient.

• 22:45Speaker 04

  Sentient.

• 22:45Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 22:46Speaker 04

  And the fact that sentient was operational at those dates of the documents mean it was operational for years before then, years before 2018.

• 22:55George Knapp?

  You know, we've had our conversations, private and otherwise, about this kind of an operation, and it just seems like, gosh, there should be somebody who's collecting all this information and studying it and trying to figure it out. And the fact that it goes into the executive branch somewhere, if that's what happens to it, good, I'm glad somebody's doing it. Why is that, as you've learned about it, why is that not necessarily a good idea? Is it because it's not maybe really within the executive branch, that it's, it's an entity unto itself?

• 23:24Speaker 04

  Why it may not be a good idea to censor our intelligence products that are circulated within our cleared community to our service members that are on the frontlines every day, is because you are blinding them to their environment, you are opening them to threats, you're exposing them to risks, and you are essentially inhibiting.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  The pursuit of national security objectives by doing so. There's a reason you guys have talked to so many whistleblowers from the military who see these things. That's because, partially because they're reporting it, they feel endangered by it. And nothing is being done and no answers are being given. And they are, in some cases, suffering legitimate injuries.

• 24:07George Knapp?

  These images that would pop up here and there on some system, on some platform. This AI program that was once called Immaculate Constellation. It would grab them, take them away, and then they're gone from those platforms, those places. So like CIA or?

• 24:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, I believe where it could, it, you know, the data was ingested essentially in a, you know, a stovepipe, right? It's locked off, it goes in. It goes into the black box and then a product comes out for what you're cleared to see and what you have a need to know to see.

• 24:39George Knapp?

  Wouldn't somebody say, hey, where's my image that I recorded? And then where'd it go?

• 24:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a lot of people who have had incidents like that. You also have to remember, there's a lot of surveillance and reconnaissance platforms. Not all of these are controlled by military or national intelligence. And I believe a lot of what was, you know, circulated for some time among the community was people at combatant commands or with operational units. They have their own platforms, essentially. They control that data to a large degree and they were able to decide that it goes on JWICs, not into the black box.

• 25:16Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, so I've heard this over and over and over, that there are these pipelines of communication, let's say, overseas to CENTCOM, but there's a squeezing point, there's a narrowing point where stuff doesn't get where it's intended to get. And that that's been a problem operationally, especially when it comes to UAP stuff. People have tried to track and follow what they've submitted and it didn't get where it needed to. It's been siphoned off. To be clear, Immaculate Constellation is not an AI scrubbing program. Just, you know, so our audience understands that. We've described what Immaculate Constellation is, but that is an element we suspect from the literature and knowledge of what is public, that there is that capability to scrub instead of like airbrushing out UFOs from NASA or something.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  And, and part of The way of knowing what this is, is knowing who in the DOD at least has a primary responsibility over SAPs. OSD policy really only has control over operational SAPs and logistical SAPs. Then you will have OSD research and engineering and acquisitions sustainment. They will have your science and technology SAPs. They are the people who, they're the gatekeepers for that world. And then you'll have your intelligence or USDA, in this case, their SAPs and CAPs. And those are intelligence SAPs. They are the primary keepers of that.

• 26:39Speaker 04

  So the implication there is that if OSD policy is being briefed on that, Immaculate Constellation is a parent SAP, not for a specific platform, but for a mission.

• 26:50Jeremy Corbell?

  I think the core of this for me is at one point, Matt realized, holy shit, this is real, this is a problem, and people are being lied to. People that need to know the truth, that it's being siphoned off outside of control of what should be our representative government. And let me know if I'm saying anything that's wrong from your perspective, but I think there's a point that he hits like you and I have hit. We're being fucking lied to and it's becoming dangerous. Your first sentence in the report that we fought to get on congressional record, we'll get into that, we fought for that together. This document is a result of a multi-year internal investigation into the subject of unidentified anomalous phenomena.

• 27:34Jeremy Corbell?

  That first sentence in your report that we fought to get into congressional record for a reason. So basically, your blood goes cold, you're like, oh, fuck. And then you do a multi-year internal investigation. Explain that's your first sentence. What'd you do?

• 27:51Speaker 04

  At the time of that.

• 27:54Speaker 04

  Knowledge, you know, I was still in the Pentagon, but I was not a whistleblower. My investigation at that point was in the pursuit of my duties encountering WMD. Also, my professional curiosity.

• 28:09Jeremy Corbell?

  You went deep.

• 28:09Speaker 04

  Well, the report is, you know, seven categories of evidence, right? Immaculate constellation is the attention grabber, but it's the one where there's the least amount of detail.

• 28:21Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 28:22Speaker 04

  So I basically conducted my own amateur all source analysis of what the US government, specifically the DOD, because that's what I had access to, knew about UAPs. And I collected that information and sought out a way to go to Congress because they asked and provided amnesty for whistleblowers. If they did not want that, they should not have written that into a law.

• 28:49Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, they said they did, and you started to go down that path. And that's our kind of next step is you're seeking whistleblower protection. Okay, so now you realize you got to do something and you feel compelled. I think we understand why he feels compelled. It's dangerous. You seek whistleblower protection officially, is that the next step? Or what's the next step?

• 29:07Speaker 04

  The next step is to figure out how to even get to Congress.

• 29:10Jeremy Corbell?

  Okay.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  And actually, a little bit before that, to figure out, like, am I even needed?

• 29:15Jeremy Corbell?

  Okay.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  Because at this point, you know, the legislation was there, but Grush was not. I was aware of people on the inside, some of whom have since become public, some of them have not, who, the very least, shared a interest in this getting a wider exposure in the intelligence community.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  So I started talking to people in that world and trying to quietly figure out, you know, what's the state of play?

• 29:44Speaker 04

  Is what I have valuable or needed?

• 29:46Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, should I, do I need to go forward? Right, right.

• 29:49Speaker 04

  So there was a long feeling out period there. Lots of mistakes made, but those were mistakes born of risk because.

• 29:59George Knapp?

  You know, this, this is, there's no channels for this. There's no official process.

• 30:03Jeremy Corbell?

  I'm starting to hear it.

• 30:04George Knapp?

  And I'm literally in the belly of the beast. Back to a constellation, you begin to get the sense that it is in fact a constellation with a lot of individual stars or stovepipes underneath it. Could you describe that structure, what you learned and how you learned it?

• 30:19Speaker 04

  So that's just more of a nature of SAPs, apparently.

• 30:23George Knapp?

  Right.

• 30:24Speaker 04

  Learning and how they're constructed and especially how the internal security for SAPs is run. I think you guys have reported on it that the budget for security is much higher than the budget for the actual research on this. And that is a very, there's very real world effects, as I came to learn.

• 30:41George Knapp?

  Describe those. For example, you're, you're telling us that you realize the guys you're working for are lying.

• 30:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:48George Knapp?

  Do you start to feel marked because of your interest in this? Or do you make mistakes that, that put you in somebody's crosshairs?

• 30:55Speaker 04

  Uh, so there was no indication that anything untoward was thought about me. Nope. As far as I knew, nobody even knew I was interested in this stuff.

• 31:05Jeremy Corbell?

  You feel a sense of duty, Congress needs to know, you know, they've been lied to specifically. People tell you, yeah, this is an important piece to the puzzle and you felt a sense of patriotic duty to do that. And so you took steps to that. You said, cool, they're going to give me whistleblower protections. I am a whistleblower. What happened? How did you do that? What were the steps?

• 31:25Speaker 04

  So I had to find them. There was no way that I could find to get into contact with Congress. I tried. So then I started talking to other people who were at that time more vocal about their intent to be a whistleblower to Congress.

• 31:42Jeremy Corbell?

  Internally more vocal.

• 31:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 31:44Jeremy Corbell?

  On classified systems.

• 31:45Speaker 04

  Yes. Or in, not so much on systems, but in classified facilities, verbal conversations.

• 31:53Speaker 04

  So met one person who did go forward.

• 32:01Speaker 04

  Kind of watched that person without letting them know what I knew to see, you know, what they were doing and how it went for them. Uh, at that time, it just seemed to be the report was, you know, I went in, talked with staff, the staff then had a separate meeting to talk with the member. And, uh, there's no paperwork, no lawyers involved. It's just you're in, you say what you had to say and you're out.

• 32:23Jeremy Corbell?

  That's the channel, no repercussion. That's what they said. We know all of those people as well.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  The assumption, none of, there's not a SOP written out. You know, this is what I'm learning and what observing.

• 32:34Jeremy Corbell?

  And you told them what you know.

• 32:37Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 32:38Jeremy Corbell?

  Officially.

• 32:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, the first meeting, I wouldn't say I was especially transparent. Uh, going in, remember I knew it, I knew my bosses were lying. I'm talking to a, a permanent member of the Senate staff, not a member, I'm an elected representative. I don't know what their agenda is.

• 32:56Jeremy Corbell?

  Could have been bait. You would be careful. It could have been bait.

• 32:59Speaker 04

  So I shared, you know, the, the tension grabber, the MCon story. And slowly worked my way around those other categories of evidence, but left it at like, you know, I got more to say, but like, you know, we should probably, you know, do you want me to say more? Like what comes next? So that meeting was had, I, uh, spoke to that person in the SCIF, in the Hart Senate Office Building. I signed my name on the log, my true name on the logbook on August 17th.

• 33:29Jeremy Corbell?

  We've been into that SCIF, the majority of that log as well.

• 33:33Speaker 04

  So unless that page goes missing, it's there.

• 33:36Jeremy Corbell?

  Yep. You got balls like church bells, man. I mean, going in there and doing this uncharted territory, you're just trying to do the right thing. I can kind of feel it. You know that that's a difficult thing and you did it and you went in.

• 33:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I don't know who to trust then either.

• 33:51Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 34:18Speaker 01

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• 34:48Speaker 04

  So what happens next is I'm told, okay, so we're going to set you up. To be clear, I spoke to a staff member from SISI. I was told that next you will speak to a staff member from SASK and then we will have a meeting with both SASK and SISI with the elected members of Congress there and the two people or sorry, and the staffers that is supposed to. That's what's supposed to happen.

• 35:10Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 35:11Speaker 04

  So I feel a little better leaving this meeting. Actually, the person I interact with seemed very genuine, took my concerns for safety very seriously. And perhaps oddly, but it was somewhat comforting, seemed to know more than me. Cause at that point, I hadn't really met anyone who at least willingly was going to answer questions and seemed like they knew even a degree of what I knew at the time. So yeah, I felt like, okay, we're on track. There's a process here. Congress actually is getting this under control. I'll have these meetings and it's, you know, I get a handshake, maybe a nice little thank you. And I feel like I did my duty and I can get back to my career.

• 35:55Jeremy Corbell?

  They're asking you to come forward and you do it.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  So none of those meetings ever happen. Weeks go by, I reach out, hey, is this going on? Like, I told you I had more. I want to give that more to you so I don't have it. When can we meet? Got the runaround. And then eventually the blunt reply like, you either send me what you have in writing here on this non. Official channel or, uh, you know, you don't and we don't need it. So I, I sent that extra information. And then for many months, uh, I thought, you know, I'm, I'm done.

• 36:38George Knapp?

  It's disillusioning, isn't it? That the, the Congress has made a show of this. Hey, we want the information. We're going to pass this legislation, protect whistleblowers, come on in, tell us this stuff. And then the, the channels really don't work.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  I came to be disillusioned. At the time, I just, uh, I came to believe like, okay, I, I had something that was of minor importance. I'm just really not important enough to talk to anymore. So you're the little guy, shut up. We don't need you anymore. Move on.

• 37:04Jeremy Corbell?

  Just the fear, right? The fear that you're, you're trying to do the right thing. The sensitive topic, you know, people are lying. Who do you trust? And all of a sudden you do what they say. There's got to be fear there. Oh shit. Should I have opened my mouth?

• 37:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. But I think at that point though, it was mostly hurt. I still thought like,

• 37:20George Knapp?

  I guess I'm too small, but.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  Too small. And I guess you guys got this already. When I talked, to be clear, David Gresh had just spoken the month before or right before then. I was clear like, hey, uh, you know, this meeting's been in the work for months. I, I saw David Gresh's testimony. I don't even know if you need what I have anymore.

• 37:36Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 37:37Speaker 04

  This guy has seems to have it all. But yeah, they still wanted to talk.

• 37:40Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 37:41George Knapp?

  Did there come a time then when you start meeting, physically meeting with other people who are sort of like whistleblowers, or at least making sounds like whistleblowers?

• 37:50Speaker 04

  Yeah. So that came about, uh, the person who connected me to Congress, uh, started trying to make a network of people in the IC in the military. Uh, you know, for what ends? It was kind of vague, but it was more of at least a community of interest, maybe looking towards like a group of current and former national security employees that can, you know, be a resource to, that Congress can call on to either like, you know, speak or just to like, to make a statement, you know?

• 38:19Jeremy Corbell?

  Legit, getting organized.

• 38:20George Knapp?

  Yeah. You gotta be thinking, well, look, I'm going to go hear from some other people, see what their experience has been like, maybe I'm not doing this right. And there's another way to do it.

• 38:28Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, at that point I had accepted that. You know, they didn't need my information. I didn't feel like there was anything left to do. Now I'm back at, well, I just want to know what's going on. These are the people like me, sort of.

• 38:41Jeremy Corbell?

  Did you have to tell your bosses, hey, I'm under whistleblower protection allegedly? I went in whistleblow. Did you have to like tell your bosses at your normal job?

• 38:49Speaker 04

  No, I did not tell my bosses. At this point in time, I was at the Department of State when I was a whistleblower, to be very clear. I was a whistleblower when I, sorry, I was a Department of State employee when I reached out to Congress. And I was a Department of State employee when I spoke to Congress. So I get another job with an FFR DC. I was going to work at DA HQ doing nuclear force planning. Pretty cool job.

• 39:13Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah.

• 39:14Speaker 04

  And then last minute, a job posting goes up from the Department of State and I'm told about it. I kind of knew some of the people at the State Department program. So that was a bit of a draw. If I feel like I need some protection.

• 39:30Speaker 04

  This could be, this could work out well in the long term. So at the time, it was kind of self-interest there, where it's like, yeah, if I need to, you know, cover my ass and write something. And have it not be redacted, this is a good place to do it.

• 39:44Jeremy Corbell?

  That's, that's pre-planning, right? And that comes from a sense of worry, a sense of fear in a way. You have to protect yourself. State Department's a good place. You're already thinking ahead. You're not doing prepub so you can write a book or be in a movie. You're doing prepub to protect your ass.

• 40:00George Knapp?

  You got a new job at the State Department. You have in the back of your mind, look, if I decide to take it a step further, this is a good place to do that.

• 40:07Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 40:07George Knapp?

  What's your job at State Department and did you like it?

• 40:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, so my job was on paper, sort of similar to what I had done.

• 40:17Speaker 04

  At the Pentagon, working in countering WMD.

• 40:19Jeremy Corbell?

  It's a cool job. Why was it cool?

• 40:21Speaker 04

  So the State Department was mainly the draw, I mean, is to travel. And is to travel to, you know, countries that I wanted to, in my case, in Europe.

• 40:32Speaker 04

  You know, you're interacting with universities, industry groups, government sort of associations.

• 40:42Speaker 04

  Much more slower speed, much less dark and grim and in the real world, as it were.

• 40:50George Knapp?

  Was there ever a period where you're thinking, maybe I'm just leaving this UAP stuff behind me?

• 40:55Speaker 04

  And, and I'm Oh, no, no.

• 40:57George Knapp?

  You were hooked. You were done.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, the subject matter, obviously, and then knowing what I knew about the situation in government.

• 41:09Speaker 04

  I don't think it's something that, you know, you have that level of knowledge that you can leave behind.

• 41:14George Knapp?

  Morally, you couldn't.

• 41:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, morally also is, it's still to this day is endlessly fascinating.

• 41:20George Knapp?

  Right.

• 41:21Speaker 04

  But my job would have nothing to do with that. And, uh, yeah, I, I, uh, it felt like, at this point, again, I had not gone to Congress, but I had met the people who either were going to or had, felt like, you know, okay, somebody's handled. People senior, more senior than me, who have connections and know what they're talking about are, they got this, so I can rest easy.

• 41:46George Knapp?

  Let it go. At what point did you read the transcripts of Sean Kirkpatrick speaking to the senators? Was that at the State Department?

• 41:53Speaker 04

  No, that was at USDI.

• 41:55George Knapp?

  I'm just trying to figure out at what point you decided, all right, you know, I tried to go to Congress. Obviously, you knew that Arrow wasn't the way to go, so you had to make a decision at some point.

• 42:06Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:07George Knapp?

  I'm gonna take some action some way.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the NDAA language comes out.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  I recognize how serious that is. I'm talking with these people, even though now I'm at, uh, states, I'm still tracking what's going on and start getting the scuttlebutt that, you know, somebody big is gonna come forward and, you know, the implications of what they had to say are like, not good. And they're making these people who are more senior than me feel or talk about like, you know, that there's corruption involved, that there is a conspiracy, criminal conspiracy involved. Nothing is being whispered, but you know, things start to feel like, oh, maybe this isn't so, uh, just a Cold War black program that was allowed to go on for too long and now it's just coming in

• 42:56Speaker 04

  from the cold, all nice and cute, like something much darker.

• 43:01Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 43:02George Knapp?

  You see people like Dave Grush come forward and get slimed. You know that there are other whistleblowers who have come forward, bits and pieces. There's, you have to realize at some point, there's a lot of risk in taking action.

• 43:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I went forwards in such close proximity to Grush that I didn't have, at that time, I hadn't observed, you know, the blowback. It looked like from the outside that, you know, he had some friction on his way there, but it looked like he got to Congress, was saying the right things, and Congress was going to do something about it.

• 43:39George Knapp?

  Momentum.

• 43:40Speaker 04

  There was momentum. And, you know, again, at that time, I was already in talks to go talk to Congress.

• 43:49Speaker 04

  Just at that point, not so much like, you know, out of fear and desperation, just as like, God, they're asking for people, seems like they need it.

• 43:58George Knapp?

  Right.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  No matter how small, it seems like it's important. And this person told me it was important. They valid this person I met with, I met with one on one. I told them about this USAP, which at the time, you know, still to myself, I was like, I don't know if it's real or not. You say you've been to Congress and you know these things firsthand, like, is this it? Said it was.

• 44:20Speaker 04

  And, yeah, so have the, those interactions that we've already been over.

• 44:26Speaker 04

  Where do things start going for me?

• 44:32Speaker 04

  What's the phrase here? More serious?

• 44:37Speaker 04

  Is after Congress, after, sorry, after speaking to Congress as a whistleblower, I interacted with, I continued to interact with this person who was trying, or at least they told me they were trying to start a fund for whistleblowers to help get people out of the legacy program who wanted to speak but couldn't because they're both afraid for their life and their livelihood. And I thought, well, there's something I can help with. Good at writing paper.

• 45:04Speaker 04

  You know, we'll make this organization, I can contribute there. And so the honeymoon phase of, you know, I did my, I spoke my piece and now it looks like I'm helping the guys and things aren't that serious continues after August of 2023. The result of that is, oh, sorry, the result of Gresh and all that, we get the UAP Disclosure Act or the attempt to do it. And it's so, I think when that failed was the first blow to that hope that, you know, things would be handled constitutionally.

• 45:43George Knapp?

  Constitutionally. Is there a point at which you, you see, let's call it the whistleblower community, a small group of, fairly small group of people who have different stories that you become disillusioned with them and with the, their media contacts who are being fed bits and pieces of information?

• 46:02Speaker 04

  Now, yes, then no.

• 46:05Speaker 04

  There also wasn't as much media penetration or connection, whatever you want to term it,

• 46:11Speaker 04

  in those circles, at least that I was, you know, a part of.

• 46:14George Knapp?

  In those days, did you consider going to, no?

• 46:17Speaker 04

  No, I had no outreach, no connections to media, and I was not pursuing connections to media at all.

• 46:24Jeremy Corbell?

  And, you know, to be fair, you're kind of navigating all of this stuff, you're seeking advice from people, trying to figure out, what do I do? And, and you're, you're a smart guy and you, you look at the world and you start reaching out to a couple of people or they're being introduced to you like myself. And you're kind of feeling it out too, like, you know, what is the best path forward here?

• 46:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:46Jeremy Corbell?

  That's.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  So sort of what happens next is the UAPDA fails. And before that, we get word it's going to fail.

• 46:53Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 46:53Speaker 04

  And this person tells me that Congress needs people to start fires.

• 46:58Jeremy Corbell?

  Right.

• 46:59Speaker 04

  To try to save the UAPDA. I ask him, are you, are you serious? Is Congress has told you to ask people to make some noise?

• 47:08Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  And try to save this thing? That person told me yes. And so then I started trying to find a.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Some media personalities who could potentially be trusted. One of my next steps, which was, well, now I gotta get something cleared. But then set back in a different way, which was, well, shit, we still have all these people, apparently, who are in danger. There's no help from the government. There's no help from Congress. There's no help from, um. Arrow? Arrow. There's no help from people who say they care about humanity. But their actions don't bear that out. So back to square one. And for me, square one is going back and re-engaging with Congress. So I, I reach out, um, in that.

• 47:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I guess this would be winter of twenty-four, twenty-three, around there, back to my, uh, SISI, uh, connection. And that person I learned had since moved on, and he connected me to the current, uh, person, a current staff member for SISI, who's handled this. Arranged a meeting in a few months, because I told them, hey, I'm gonna just, first of all, I asked, like, hey, did you get any of my testimony? The answer was no, or, um, at least that was the claimed answer. So I said, uh, well, did you get any notes? Like, I know he took notes. Did you get notes of what I said? Nah. So I said, okay, you know what? I'm gonna write this all up for you guys. You have it, and you can't lose it.

• 48:38Speaker 04

  And, um, you're gonna guarantee to me that this is not just gonna stay with SISI. It is gonna go to Sask, and it is gonna go to Hask, and it is gonna go to HIPSE, like it was promised before, but never did.

• 48:48George Knapp?

  Those acronyms, meaning for the Senate committees and the House committees that would deal with these classified sensitive stuff.

• 48:54Speaker 04

  You're, you're like, fuck this. I'm writing it all down. Writing it down. I'm gonna make it really your problem. Right. And you gave me amnesty. Right. You want this? I'm giving it to you. Right. So I spend, uh, some weeks, uh, laboriously typing this out, um.

• 49:15Speaker 04

  You know, hidden drives on encrypted drives using open source software only able only opening it when I know I'm not connected to anything on a new device, not a very fun drafting process. Right. And that's just the technical aspects of trying to be secure about it at this point. And I'm undefinitely in no illusions that the US government at some capacity knows about me. I'm mainly concerned about foreign intelligence and their possibility of collecting on on me. I'm in DC, spy capital of the world. I I was very concerned about that and wanted to do even the writing of this the correct way.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  So during that time, draft this.

• 51:03Speaker 04

  I observe what's going on, continues to go on, the the final death of UAP, UAP Disclosure Act One and the attempt to get the second one, which is totally watered down and not even worth our time to consider.

• 51:21Speaker 04

  And I go and I have a meeting with Sissy.

• 51:25Speaker 04

  Give them the paper. It's a much longer version of the report, both in my analysis and the level of detail, additional detail in the evidentiary evidentiary sections.

• 51:38Speaker 04

  Including the various compartments and programs that they could themselves. Look into to access the same information that I saw, which is ridiculous that Congress has no access to.

• 51:52Speaker 04

  Gave all that to them.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  Then really had the press to even get to speak to Sask. Eventually got to speak to Sask permanent staff. At I believe the Rayburn Office Building. Then after I had met with both Sissy and Sask, I.

• 52:13Speaker 04

  I. Or no, after I met with Sissy, but before I finally met with Sask, I submitted a version of this report to the State Department because I. After I gave it to them the first time. They said, thank you very much.

• 52:30Speaker 04

  And then you never heard again, didn't even.

• 52:33Jeremy Corbell?

  I mean, they're asking for you.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  Going on.

• 52:34Jeremy Corbell?

  They're asking for you to come in, they're asking for this and you're.

• 52:38Speaker 04

  So I decided.

• 52:38Jeremy Corbell?

  Kick open doors.

• 52:39Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 52:40Jeremy Corbell?

  Please stand this.

• 52:41Speaker 04

  Exactly. So I decided to make myself a little dangerous and said, hey, I'm going to submit this for pre pub review. To and I'm going to brief my leadership at State Department on this, which I did. And I then after briefing them, I submitted it to pre pub review. And at the State Department, met with Sask, provided a copy of the full report and at that time, the cleared one. Before that ever reached any media sources so that they knew what the media would see before anyone else. You know, doing what I thought was only fair, you know, you want, you're our leaders. You want. Control, you want this to go the right way.

• 53:24Speaker 04

  I'm giving you full insight into what my words are. You can tell me at any time to stop or what to change in my words, nothing.

• 53:31Jeremy Corbell?

  Transparent, but also you ain't fucking around anymore.

• 53:34Speaker 04

  Right.

• 53:35Jeremy Corbell?

  Yeah. No pushback at all.

• 53:38Speaker 04

  None, except for not after this house meeting, never getting access to house at that time.

• 53:43George Knapp?

  You make this.

• 53:44Speaker 04

  And no access to members still.

• 53:46Jeremy Corbell?

  And that's where we start a process, but.

• 53:48George Knapp?

  Right, so you make the submission, you get an answer back.

• 53:52Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 53:53George Knapp?

  What's it say?

• 53:54Speaker 04

  You know, I get no redactions requested and essentially a one word, sorry, one sentence answer, you may proceed.

• 54:04George Knapp?

  Not exactly something that gives you a lot of confidence at all as well, but I mean, it sounds like they're saying, go ahead, we have no problem with it.

• 54:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, we have the emails, you can read between the lines and also the tone, certainly nobody there was thrilled about what I was doing.

• 54:23Jeremy Corbell?

  Right, but they weren't stopping you. And, you know, a lot of people hear about DOPs or that kind of thing, and this is a very interesting way to go about it. You get pre-pubbed through State Department, which later Sean Kirkpatrick, when it became public, made some disparaging comments about what gets passed through when it comes to going through State Department, doesn't matter. Basically, it's a process for you to cover your ass and inform everybody and, and say, I'm not messing around, here we go. And, and you get, you get it all written out, you get approved and one sentence, you know, email back that we've seen and, and you don't have high level of confidence, right? Of like, well, what does that mean? Can I move forward? So there you are, what happens next?

• 55:04Speaker 04

  I fly out to California and I meet with Michael Schellenberger.

• 55:08Speaker 02

  In part three of our interview with the author of the Immaculate Constellation Report.

• 55:13Jeremy Corbell?

  What is it like to have absolute knowledge that not only UFOs are, are real, that we've been hiding that, that our government has controlled that information away from human, the base human population?

• 55:30Speaker 04

  What I have learned is that we live in a dream, a carefully constructed reality. We make use of a science that is tightly controlled and suppressed and distorted.

• 55:47George Knapp?

  Who are they? Why are they here? Why don't they show us what's going on?

• 55:52Speaker 04

  I think I have a good degree of confidence that the reason they're here is us. I think life, especially sentient life, is a precious thing. And I think, to some, it might be a resource.