144. Question Time: The War On Drugs, a Tory Green Party, and Long Covid

Is class still the biggest dividing line in Britain? Why do we not hear enough about the impact of Long Covid? Would the Green Party ever shift to the right? On today’s Question Time pod, Rory and Alastair answer all these questions and more. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up. Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rustispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rustispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:05Speaker 02

  A BetterHelp ad. Imagine carrying a backpack every day, every conversation, every mistake, every expectation. You probably wouldn't notice how heavy it was until someone asked if you wanted to put it down. Sometimes feeling better starts exactly like that. Better isn't one size fits all. Better is personal. It's therapy tailored to you to help lighten what you've been carrying. Match with a therapist who truly gets you. Visit betterhelp.com/rustpolitics.

• 1:43Rory Stewart?

  Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me, Rory Stewart.

• 1:47Alastair Campbell?

  And me, Alastair Campbell.

• 1:49Rory Stewart?

  And Alistair, where do we see you today?

• 1:51Alastair Campbell?

  France.

• 1:52Rory Stewart?

  Oh, lovely. Lovely, lovely. And is the sun shining?

• 1:55Alastair Campbell?

  The sun is shining. I've just been out on my bike. My legs are really hurting.

• 2:02Alastair Campbell?

  And I wonder, I just wondered, Rory, whether we shouldn't try to get through the whole Question Time without mentioning... The former Prime Minister, former member for

• 2:14Rory Stewart?

  Uxbridge.

• 2:15Alastair Campbell?

  Uxbridge. Shall we try that?

• 2:17Rory Stewart?

  We'll try very hard. And indeed, just as a little plug for leading, John Major also very much recommended that the correct way to approach the former member for Uxbridge and the former member for Henley is perhaps not to mention him at all.

• 2:31Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, he was very, very good about that. There's a lot of love for John Major at the moment, I sense, and his two-parter, first part was in your feeds on Monday, second part next week. And if you remember, you'll have both by now. So now, talking of leading Rory, we got a lot of questions this week about our previous interview with Kate Rayworth. Let me just bang out a few. Nick Simpson, I thought your leading interview with Kate Rayworth was brilliant. Thank you. Is there an argument, says Nick, that capitalism is approaching collapse? Paul Scholes, I suspect that is not the footballer. There are scientists protesting with just stop oil. They're reporting off the scale surface ocean temperature and Antarctic ice anomalies, yet mainstream media seems to be mute.

• 3:14Alastair Campbell?

  Finley Carroll, listened to the leading episode with Kate Rayworth on Thursday before going into my A level politics exam the next morning. Quite amazing. The essay question was, nature must be preserved regardless of the cost to humans. Discuss. Did you have prior knowledge?

• 3:30Rory Stewart?

  That's the main reason most people listen to our podcast, because you and I are actually setting the exams.

• 3:37Alastair Campbell?

  Well, we said in the interview with John Major that there was one of the questions this week, this year was in the politics paper was to what extent did John Major lose in 1997 and Tony Blair won? And we now have both on the record. So students can just listen and use that as part of their source. So what do you think about this? Is capitalism approaching collapse? What do you think of that?

• 3:59Rory Stewart?

  Well, I came across a very interesting review by Branko Milanovic. And I know you keep telling me off for using the word distinguished. But anyway, the guy is a big deal in the world of economics.

• 4:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 4:09Rory Stewart?

  And he has written a review of Kate Raworth's book on something called brave new europe.com, which we'll share with people. And in it, he particularly gets into the question of what happens on growth. So he says, it becomes apparent that Raworth's book is a book of miracles. As well as why, in such a world of miracles, the real miracle, which is Chinese growth that has pulled out of abject poverty some 700 million people, goes all but unmentioned. The reason is that poverty was eliminated by dirty growth that has polluted Chinese cities in the countryside and yet made the lives of millions incomparably better.

• 4:48Rory Stewart?

  So he's putting there in a pretty raw, tough way that growth, dirty growth in China has lifted 700 million people out of poverty. And it's very, very difficult to work out how you're going to be able to help the poorest people in the world without growth.

• 5:03Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, well, I guess that's what we, what we were thinking, but I, I, I think the thing that troubled me about the whole interview was that one of the questions said this, said, you know, when, when, when somebody said, when will you and I wake up and smell the coffee and understand that this is the only way to go? And I sort of want to think that, but I'm struggling to work out how, how. And you're right, that if China had not grown in the way that it did, would, would we still have, I guess the Americans had argued that would be a good thing if the Chinese were still, were still reduced to poverty. But anyways, I think it's good that we were challenged and it's also good that people seem to have really felt.

• 5:42Rory Stewart?

  And, and she's put, she's put her finger on something very important, hasn't she? Because her challenge to you and I is to keep saying, okay, you're probably right. I mean, she sort of concedes our point that we're probably right, that the consequences of trying to do what she says are going to be unbelievably painful, that, you know, cutting the GDP of a country like Britain by 75% would basically mean cutting half our government services and more. But her challenge to us would be, what is the alternative? And if, as she keeps insisting, we live on a planet with finite resources, infinite growth just doesn't make sense. Now, it reminds me a bit, I was sort of thinking about this, that it's a little bit like when

• 6:24Rory Stewart?

  Buddha or Jesus pose a very radical vision of extreme poverty to people and people respond, well, that doesn't really work in the real world. It's a, it's a. Very, very, very difficult working out what you do with an idealism that seems incredibly rigorous and truthful, but whose consequences are so completely at odds with the way that our world works.

• 6:46Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm, yeah. Now, very much in the real world, LW, and this is LW is going to get our weekly award for perseverance because this is the 10th week in a row that he has asked us to give us our thoughts on the current situation in NHS dentistry.

• 7:02Rory Stewart?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 7:03Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, now, I did have a little, because he had asked us so often, I thought we should sort of give him an answer. And Rishi Sunak keeps saying, and has said many times in Parliament, that we have more NHS dentists. And it turns out this is not true. And the British Dental Association had a conference last week where they were very, very critical of the fact that he that he keeps saying it. I had a look at the Health Service NHS website and the official government. It says the NHS will provide any clinically necessary treatment needed to keep your mouth, teeth and gums healthy and free of pain. It then goes to say, goes on to say, your dentist must make clear which treatments could be provided

• 7:45Alastair Campbell?

  on the NHS and which can only be provided on a private basis, which seems to me to contradict the first sentence, which says that the NHS will provide any clinically necessary treatment. And I think we have really in dentistry now, don't we? We just have it. I mean, I had a filling fallout the other day, and I went to the same dentist I've been using for years. And a few years ago, actually, well, he is, he does do NHS work. But a few years ago, I used to get my dentistry for free, and now I don't. And I'm not quite sure what's changed, other than that it's just sort of evolved. And so anyway, I paid £195, just have a filling put back in.

• 8:22Rory Stewart?

  And there's an interesting Guardian article on this, on the NHS dentist deserts. So North Lincolnshire, one for every 3,199 people, East Riding of Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, etc. And very striking figures on the number of children accessing dentists. Pre-pandemic, the level was well over Fifty percent then dropped quite steeply. Now, people are still trying to work out, I guess, how much of this is to do with the pandemic fallout. But the figures that The Guardian was showing in the article that I read, which is August last year, had them falling from about half to about a third of children accessing dentists, which is a big, big problem in terms of people's, well, because obviously your teeth connect to a lot of your life.

• 9:05Alastair Campbell?

  Well, and also half sounds really low. I do remember in my school days, having kind of, you know, the part of the dental service was run through the school. So, I mean, everybody sort of felt they had access. I also spotted a story on BBC Cornwall, a mobile dental clinic has been offering NHS dentist appointments to people in Cornwall. And it's a charity called Dent Aid, and it quoted a woman called Mandy Francis, who said that she had not had an NHS dental appointment for seven years. Said, I'm very excited at getting treatment. It's been such a long wait. I've tried everywhere in Cornwall to get an NHS dentist, and it's been impossible. I was offered an appointment in Devon, but that's too far. And I did see that some of the rural communities and the Hebrides and so forth were pretty low on dentists.

• 9:50Alastair Campbell?

  So I guess the bottom line, and thank you for raising LW, but it seems to me that we are, we have drifted to a place where an awful lot of people are not getting good dental treatment. And now I think that stores up.

• 10:02Rory Stewart?

  And I think a combination of different things, isn't it? It's a combination of government funding, it's a combination of workload, and it's also connected to those things, but not always directly connected to those things. Many, many NHS dentists saying they want to reduce their NHS work or leave it all together.

• 10:18Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 10:19Rory Stewart?

  Huge number struggling to fill vacancies. And I think we had another question, didn't we, from people talking about doctors going overseas? And this is a complicated thing because on the one hand, obviously, many doctors are writing into us very, very strongly critical of even the Australian or US healthcare systems with reason. But many British doctors are actually going to Australia and the US to practise as doctors because, of course, you can earn much more money.

• 10:45Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, and I've seen some of the adverts that the Australian Health Service are putting out to try to attract our doctors. And they are, they do make it look very, very attractive, not just financially, but in lots of other ways. And I do think the fact that they're, they're respected by the government. I mean, the government do sort of talk up doctors. I feel that our government has been very, very quick to talk down public servants, and I think that's having. A big impact on morale, which is another factor which makes people leave. Now Rory, I went to an event the other day, I'm going to raise it.

• 11:17Rory Stewart?

  Oh yes, was this a football event?

• 11:19Alastair Campbell?

  No, it's not a football event, although I'm sure you share my joy at Scotland beating Norway.

• 11:23Rory Stewart?

  And that there's something complicated happened in the last few minutes of the game. Somebody sent in a question about this.

• 11:30Alastair Campbell?

  So well spotted. Somebody sent a question asking you whether you thought the Norwegian coach made a mistake in taking off Haaland with five minutes to go.

• 11:41Rory Stewart?

  And that's a big mistake, big mistake, because the result showed, yeah, obviously.

• 11:45Alastair Campbell?

  I'm sure that had much to do with the the final defeat. Anyway, class in the UK. So I was at this event and I got a question about it. Damien Lowe, he says, I loved your 93 club talk. I'll explain what the 93 club is in a moment. What are the three things Rory would try to do to address inequality and class division in the UK? Christopher Chesney, I've been listening to Joe Biden, who says when the middle class, that's the working class in America, does well, everyone does well. He goes on to say, we haven't talked about class in Britain for ages. Does Joe Biden's comment hold water? And where is the UK right now through a class distinction lens? So my 93% club Rory is the, I think I've mentioned it before, it was set up by a young woman called Sophie Pender, who was at Bristol University.

• 12:29Alastair Campbell?

  The time she was there, 40% of the students, almost 40% of the students were privately educated. She came from a council house and quite a difficult background and she found it very, very difficult. And in the end, and she also realised that they did have these networks. And so she founded this thing called the 93% club, because of course the 93% are the majority who do not go to to private schools. And I went to this wonderful event and there was a guy, a former broadcaster called Matt Barbet there. He said, we're not going to mention the former prime minister, but he did say that. The reason why people go to schools such as the one that you and the person we're not

• 13:12Alastair Campbell?

  mentioning went to, along with Rhys Mog and Kwasi Kwarteng and others, he had this phrase, he said, privilege is bought and entitlement is taught.

• 13:23Rory Stewart?

  Hmm. My pushback, I guess, would be twofold. I don't think British society is really divided between the ninety-three percent and the seven percent. I don't think you, for example, are in a worse situation than me because you didn't go to a private school. I think the real distinction in British society is between the sixty percent who own houses and the forty percent who don't. That's the starkest, most extreme wealth inequality you can imagine. And it's that that all the political parties are trying to work their way around. Do we put property taxes on? Because if you're serious about inequality, it's not about incomes, it's about assets, it's about wealth. And fundamentally, that's the thing that's going to kill younger people, their inability to get on the housing

• 14:06Rory Stewart?

  ladder, the fact that older people are holding on to houses. And I think it suits people who are gently on the liberal progressive left to imagine they're part of the ninety-seven percent and they're being abused by the three percent.

• 14:17Alastair Campbell?

  Ninety-three and seven.

• 14:18Rory Stewart?

  Ninety-three and seven. But in fact, I think the truth is that about sixty percent of the British population are far better off than forty percent. And if I push it further, ninety percent of the British population are so much better off than the worst ten percent, which very few of the political parties focus on, because sadly, the poorest ten percent very rarely vote. So I think if you were really serious about social justice, beginning with the sort of people that you and I have dealt with who are in prison, who have been expelled from school with mental health issues, with learning difficulties, who literally have no future at all, is actually something that I'd really like young people to focus on, rather than getting wound up about the seven percent.

• 14:59Alastair Campbell?

  I thought that was a very, very elegant piece of whataboutery. I think your, I think your former master, John Cloughton, who's been in touch with us about his excellent letter to the Times, I hadn't realised that he was the same guy who'd been sending in questions, as had his son, and he was the guy who pointed out that the-

• 15:17Rory Stewart?

  He's, he's a bit of a, bit of a lefty, as far as such things exist in Eton teachers.

• 15:22Alastair Campbell?

  Was he?

• 15:22Rory Stewart?

  He's more in sympathy with you, yeah, I think, I think-

• 15:25Alastair Campbell?

  Good man, good man. Well, but I say, anyway, I do think, I think as a piece of, of sort of destructive, destructive whataboutery, that was quite effective. However, I don't think it really answered the main point. I do still think that if you look at our, our media, you look at our military, you look at our judiciary, there is something structurally wrong in our society, that so many people from those schools get to the top positions, and I think it's that the barriers, the, the point that the people at this meeting, the 93% club were making, is that they, they feel there are barriers there, which I think the people who go to those top schools in our culture, in our society, feel there are no barriers. And I fear we have to mention Johnson in this context.

• 16:07Rory Stewart?

  Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 16:09Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, okay, I, I, well, I, I fear there are, there are people who have risen recently to very, very senior positions in our national life, who would not have got anywhere near them if they had not had the privilege, bought entitlement to it.

• 16:24Rory Stewart?

  And I suppose that also does raise a, a very interesting question, which is, is it just about privilege and entitlement? Or is it actually that these schools are doing a pretty good job in educating people, giving them confidence, giving them skills, giving them knowledge? In other words, and, and if that's true, one of the things that's striking about private schools is that they run on a much more old fashioned, disciplined basis than most public education. It's a very different philosophy of education. And I think that's actually another thing that's very challenging within our education system.

• 17:02Alastair Campbell?

  Was Eton, was Eton very strict?

• 17:04Rory Stewart?

  Very, very strict, and the hours are very long, I mean, because it's a boarding school. In effect, you're, you know, I, I would, I can't remember, but I, you know, I would often be continuing to do things till 10 at night, having started at 8 in the morning. So by the end of the term, you are completely shattered. You're totally exhausted and that's obviously privilege, but it's privilege which is translating into the child probably getting twice as long a school day. And in addition, very, very high expectations on discipline, results, control, order. It's not, there is a, one of the interesting things is that parents often say that they want a much more sort of, as it were, nurturing 1960s style education, but when they're paying

• 17:46Rory Stewart?

  for education, they're often buying a much more old fashioned style of education.

• 17:51Alastair Campbell?

  I see, I see the, the person that we're not mentioning did an interview with the, the school magazine and it was done by somebody by the name of Peter Rees-Mogg. I wonder if he's at all related to the person who just, who's just got a knighthood, just got a knighthood.

• 18:05Rory Stewart?

  Very common names, isn't it? There's been an extraordinary thing, which is lovely stuff from your, your favourite man, the, the academic called The Red, Red Horsorin is his Twitter name. He's done a beautiful piece on just pulling out how almost every single person who defended the person that we're not mentioning has been given a knighthood or offered a peerage by him. Well, Alistair, I think time for a quick break.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  So good, so good, so good. Nordstrom Rack is celebrating 125 years of Nordstrom with 125 of the best deals up to 65% off in stores and online. We're talking incredible savings on brands you love like Vince, Sam Edelman, Rag and Bone, All Saints and more. They're only here while supplies last, so shop today. Join the Nordie Club to unlock exclusive discounts, shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favourite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack.

• 18:59Speaker 04

  A payday candy bar is miles and miles of peanuts. Salty crunchy peanuts, sweet, sweet caramel wrapping you up with every bite. Enjoy the tasty journey, my friend. Payday Peanut Caramel Bar.

• 19:14Speaker 05

  I get so many headaches every month.

• 19:17Speaker 06

  It could be chronic migraine, 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.

• 19:22Speaker 07

  Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month. Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.

• 20:07Speaker 06

  Why wait? Ask your doctor. Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.

• 20:15Speaker 08

  The best part of waking up? A full cup of Folgers coffee and music on full blast.

• 20:41Speaker 08

  Shop Folgers K-Cup Pods and more at your nearest retailer.

• 20:52Alastair Campbell?

  Now, listen, you mentioned the whole kind of inequality thing, and I do agree with you on that, but Andrea Vero, question, this is a question to me, but I think it's raised by your question. As an avid listener to the Spiegel podcast, Ach Milliarden, which I am, what did you think of the episode, Poor Britannia? Now, Poor Britannia was on a couple of weeks ago, and it was, it was very, very interesting. They did a whole episode on Britain. Including a visit to Burnley, I have to say. And it was about poverty in Britain. And it was also about the inequality in Britain. They played this advert that I've never seen and never heard, but it was for sort of posh basements in London. Twenty five million pound style houses that are being built for the kind of the oligarch class.

• 21:36Alastair Campbell?

  But it was very, very, it was very strange to hear Britain being debated on a German podcast in a way that almost like we, you and I might occasionally talk about countries in the developing world.

• 21:51Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, the other people who do this a lot is the New York Times and sometimes, sometimes fairly, sometimes very unfairly. I remember five, six years ago, an article written on my constituency where somebody had, a New York Times journalist had gone up and found sheep farmers in Alston and had basically portrayed it as though this was the middle of the 19th century. And I knew a lot of the people she was interviewing, a lot of them are quite successful farmers, doing quite well, quite confident. People being made to look on the front cover of the New York Times as though they were just sort of living in Dickensian horror.

• 22:25Alastair Campbell?

  Are these the people that you, that you used to describe as tying up their trousers with string or?

• 22:29Rory Stewart?

  That's, that's the one. You've got it, Alistair, you've got it. Um, there's actually a very interesting book, which I, if I can plug a book, Ben Judah, This is Europe.

• 22:38Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:39Rory Stewart?

  Is very interesting. Now, he does focus on people in real trouble in Europe, across Europe. And particularly on poverty, particularly on first generation immigrants, particularly on racism and displacement in Europe. I mean, it's an extraordinary series of interviews. He did it also, a book called This is London, where he, you know, interviewed people, I think in Romanian in underpasses in Hyde Park. But there is, there is a story, definitely in Britain, definitely in Britain, of extreme and total unacceptable horror amongst, I don't know. I don't know whether it's 5% of our population, 10% of our population. And the same is true, I think, in the Bonne L'Europe Paris. I don't know enough about Germany, but it's certainly true for a lot of first generation immigrants across Southern Europe.

• 23:24Alastair Campbell?

  The Spiegel team gave the figures for food banks and dog food banks and all the sort of different.

• 23:34Alastair Campbell?

  Numbers of people that are using charity to get by and they were shocked. They were shocked by just how many people in Britain seem to rely on them.

• 23:43Rory Stewart?

  And of course, the worst of all in the developed world, to remind people, is the United States, where the poverty statistics are beyond imagining. I mean, infant mortality rates, life expectancy for the poor in the United States is just unbelievably shocking. Now, Alistair, here is a question. War on Drugs, Adrian Gonzalez for you, Alistair. What are your thoughts on the war on drugs and legalization? It seems to me that the dynamics around drugs define a lot of what happens in Latin America.

• 24:13Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I wonder whether that question flowed from the fact that we talked briefly about Latin America last week. Well, I think I've mentioned to you before, the book by Johann Hari on the drugs trade, Chasing the Scream. And actually, it was partly his analysis of Latin America and the complete failure of the American war on drugs and their belief that if they just use the, help the Latin American governments to kind of smash the drugs trade and smash the dealers, that somehow they would, they would break it and stop the supply into America. Well, that just hasn't worked. I think we have to accept that the war on drugs has failed. Now, whether that leads to wholesale legalization, marketization, I just don't know.

• 24:58Alastair Campbell?

  I'd be very, I'd be quite queasy about that. But that the war on drugs has not succeeded, I don't think there can be much argument about that.

• 25:06Rory Stewart?

  There's a good review of Johann Hari's book by Decca Aikenhead, who interviewed us the end of last year. And it begins with an interesting first line. She says, "When I heard that Johann Hari had written a book about the war on drugs, two immediate concerns sprang to mind. The first was whether anyone would trust the word he wrote. And this is because he did the most extraordinary malicious editing of Wikipedia pages of any journalist that he disliked." So he's an interesting character. I mean, he's clearly written a fascinating book, but my goodness, as a journalist, it's been extraordinary what he, what he was doing.

• 25:43Alastair Campbell?

  That's true, but and I remember at the time thinking that it was quite brave of him to just sort of go and do the book. The thing about, what is so interesting about his book? Is that it it literally looks at the drugs tray from every possible angle you can imagine, from the dealers, from the prisons, from the kids, from the governments, from the police. And, okay, you can say that, well, because he's had this reputation for plagiarism, you know, did he do all the work and what have you? But I just, I kind of read it with an open mind and it really did open my mind to a different way of thinking about about our failure.

• 26:17Rory Stewart?

  It does seem to be an amazingly interesting book, doesn't it?

• 26:20Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 26:20Rory Stewart?

  And people who've read it have just just sort of loved the the pace of it and the way in which it's worked. Okay, Ross McLean, the Outer Hebrides is one of the most stunning locations to record a podcast. When are you coming to the Isle of Lewis or Harris? There we are.

• 26:36Alastair Campbell?

  I think if we were to do it in the Hebrides, it would have to be Tyree, otherwise I would have family complaints. And also, what would the dubbers be like? There is a Tyree Music Festival, we could think about that.

• 26:47Rory Stewart?

  When's that on? Presumed in the summer.

• 26:49Alastair Campbell?

  In the summer, yeah. We should just remind people that we are going to be going to Edinburgh. I know it's not the Hebrides, but I think we should put that in the in the category marked, we'll think about it, Rory, yeah?

• 27:00Rory Stewart?

  Here's one that I want to just raise, Carol Bruce, Long Covid. Lack of research funding for Long Covid has broad implications. If many are unable to work because of an illness that has been denied and psychologized, what can I do, as per Alissa's new book, has been our cry for a very long time, but remains unheeded. I mean, this is, I like, I imagine you and many, many people listening to this podcast. I've got a very close friend who has Long Covid and it has completely destroyed his life. I mean, he said that for the last three years, he's barely had a happy day. He wakes up in the most terrible state. And what I guess she's getting at there by saying that it's been denied and psychologized is

• 27:44Rory Stewart?

  Struggling with the fact that so many doctors still seem quite reluctant to acknowledge that there's any connection between Covid and what people are experiencing, or at least, speaking on behalf of my friend, I think he feels that it's a very difficult and humiliating position to be in.

• 28:00Alastair Campbell?

  I may be showing my ignorance here. The other issue on Covid we had lots of questions about, related to the clinically vulnerable and their inability to be considered, in their view, seriously by the Covid inquiry, because they've been trying to get into the first module. I don't know if that's the same thing or not, and I probably will get shouted at for not knowing. But I think, what I think this, both those questions however reveal to me, is that there are consequences of Covid. You keep making this point, I hope the Covid inquiry doesn't just sort of, you know, conclude that Boris Johnson was a useless prime minister, because we already know that. But I think there are these deeper structural questions relating not just to the nature of government and the constructs of government,

• 28:44Alastair Campbell?

  but also to the consequence of an illness that we still don't fully understand. And I think both of these questions relate to that.

• 28:51Rory Stewart?

  Here's one that I think is absolutely central to Alistair. It's from Cassia Zajak. If you were advising Labour on campaigning for the next election, what policy do you think they should go big on, that can be communicated by a three-word slogan, and that might convince the unconvinced to vote for them?

• 29:12Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I hope they don't imagine that all they need is a few snazzy three-word slogans, because I think and hope that the country has just about had enough of the three-word slogans. I think they should maybe take Stop the Boats and turn it into Stop the Bullshit. I think that would be a sort of nice negative word.

• 29:30Rory Stewart?

  I also quite like, you hated my slogan for them, but I loved Enough is Enough.

• 29:35Alastair Campbell?

  Well, listen, the concept is good. And I'll tell you, the thing is, I do think the driving feeling in the country at the moment is we've got to get rid of these bastards. They've got to go. And so I think that the three word slogan is in the area of get the country moving, get Britain moving again, get going, we're stuck, we've got to get going. Now, that probably relates to the economy. I'd like to see more on the agenda about education. I think education, George Osborne made the point that, you know, education, both from the government and from the opposition, we don't really seem to be hearing much about it.

• 30:10Rory Stewart?

  And he pointed out, that's weird, isn't it, that that was completely central to what you were doing in the in the 90s. And whether you like it or not, very central to the brand of the Conservatives, Michael Gove, in early 2010. And it seems to have faded from both parties.

• 30:21Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Casa SB, I live in France. Do British governments ever look abroad to see what policies are working or not working? Or do they always do bespoke ones, starting from scratch? I'm thinking of the amazing school meal payment system here, based on income and fixed rate housing loans, set at a third of your income. So, and you mentioned Michael Gove there. Now, I would argue, and Fiona, who knows a lot more about education than I do, she would argue that Gove was terrible for his impact on education. But to be fair to him, he did at least go around the world, looking at education systems. And I, in answer to Casa's question, I don't think we need do nearly enough of looking at other countries and their policies.

• 31:04Rory Stewart?

  Well, and the time to do it, of course, is when in opposition. It's very difficult when you're actually the minister to do this. I would sneak out when I was a prisons minister to try to get and look at other countries' prison systems, but it was a few days at a time.

• 31:16Alastair Campbell?

  Did you go to Norway? Because they've got an amazing prison system.

• 31:19Rory Stewart?

  No, I spent a long time talking to the head of the Swedish prison service, who was a really, really impressive man, who I learned an unbelievable amount from, because he had drug rates, which were like a tenth of ours, much lower reoffending, had a very strong sort of emphasis on relationships and treating prisoners with dignity, but combined with actually some quite well designed measures to provide security in the prison. So I learnt a lot from the Swedes. And in the other reverse, I went to the US, I saw Cook County Jail, I went to Rikers Island, I went to the Tombs in Manhattan. And there I was seeing, you know, things which you'd never see in a British prison.

• 32:00Rory Stewart?

  I saw a young black man walking towards me with ankle shackles on in the in the Tombs in Manhattan. I mean, it was a sort of, I don't need to say this on the show, but the American prison system can be completely horrifying. Just related, maybe just as we move towards the end, a new Green Party, Barry Grogan. Is there a path for the Green Party to grow by focusing more on home county NIMBYs? That would lean Tory as opposed to their traditional left wing base. And this partly comes, just just as you know, in the local elections. The Green Party made some pretty dramatic gains, took control of councils in East Hertfordshire. Largest party in the in Lewis and East Sussex.

• 32:44Rory Stewart?

  And there's a general story, I mean, Germany's Greens, I suppose, is the most dramatic example. But there's a general story, despite all of populism, about the development from the new left into the green movement across the world. Anyway, Greens for you.

• 32:56Alastair Campbell?

  I'd say the Greens in Germany are struggling a bit because, and as often happens to minority parties when they become part of government. But they, you know, you're right that the Greens in Germany have sort of, they have been trailblazers. This is an interesting, it's a really interesting question that, because in a sense. It's it's advocating to them that they do what the Liberal Democrats have always done and the SNP have done as well. Which is essentially depending on the area where you're campaigning, be a slightly different party. And I can see an opportunity for them there because I'll tell you, one of the things that's worrying me from the Labour perspective. Is the number of people who say to me that, you know, they're thinking of voting green because they want Labour to be more radical and to be more bold. And to call out the Tories on this, that and the other.

• 33:42Alastair Campbell?

  Now, I understand why Labour sometimes aren't doing that. But I think it does open doors for the for the Greens in a way that they're not necessarily exploiting. And I think that's what, I don't know if Barry Grogan is a Green supporter himself. But then they're not necessarily exploiting that in the way that it sounds to me like he would, he would like. Now Rory, I've got, I've got to tell you, let me close with this.

• 34:04Rory Stewart?

  Yeah.

• 34:05Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, I'm bracketing these under a little special section that I've been plotting away called Tory Rory.

• 34:11Rory Stewart?

  Tory Rory.

• 34:13Alastair Campbell?

  Tory Rory.

• 34:14Rory Stewart?

  Tory Rory, this doesn't sound like a very pleasant way to end.

• 34:16Alastair Campbell?

  No, it's a very, it's because it's interesting because I think people, I've been spotting it, right? So Jamie Peters, why does Rory desperately defend Sunak when Sunak enabled and shilled for the person that we're not talking about? For three years, just as Sunak is enabling, supporting and shilling for Braverman now. And Sarah, Rory has described Sunak's policies as moderate several times. I'd like him to here explain that a bit more because other than the EU law bonfire, I don't see his policies as moderate myself. Thank you, she adds politely.

• 34:51Rory Stewart?

  Well, we can come back to this again and again because it never gets old. I think the normal way that Alistair puts it is that he is much better than his predecessors, but you would say that's a low bar. I would say that I was so horrified by what the man we're not mentioning has been doing to the Conservative Party. That the fact that we've got a Prime Minister who is diligent, does his work, who Cabinet Ministers respect, who got the Windsor Framework through, who didn't.

• 35:23Alastair Campbell?

  He hasn't done much since then, has he?

• 35:25Rory Stewart?

  Didn't proceed with the mad bonfire. But I do agree with you, there are challenges around Rishi Sunak and I would agree with the, with the question is, I'm not a member of the Conservative Party.

• 35:37Rory Stewart?

  I left because I disliked the former member from Uxbridge so much, whereas Rishi Sunak joined his government. I'm a Remainer, he's a Brexiteer, et cetera, et cetera. Now, here's a happy news to end on. Germany just gave all 18 year olds 200 euros to spend on the arts. And this is, that's a point made by Tony Pasta, our friend and your fellow Burnley fan and the producer of our show. And don't you think that would be a wonderful thing for one of these parties to put in their manifesto for the next election?

• 36:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, they'll have to, they'll have to say where the money is coming from, but I, I do, I do think that people underestimate the, well, I think, I think governments around the world underestimate the power of the arts. And I do think as well that giving people as they reach that age, a bit of sort of, you know, fun and a bit of hope and a bit of culture, I think is a very, very good thing to do. We also had another question about. About whether there were any good policy ideas. It relates to the point about the whether whether we we study, whether people study foreign policy enough, and by which I mean policies of foreign governments as opposed to their foreign policy. Do you know the other thing that I think is not used enough and is our ambassadors, I think they

• 36:50Alastair Campbell?

  should be informing governments. And if it has a political angle, I think they should be doing so in a way that they they should also be telling the opposition.

• 36:59Rory Stewart?

  It's a brilliant idea. I think it's a brilliant idea because it would also be a very, very good thing for an ambassador because it's a deeply respectful thing to another country to say, actually, we want to learn about the things you're doing and take them back to our own country. I think that's a great idea.

• 37:13Alastair Campbell?

  The reason I keep mentioning Norway is partly because Scotland beat them in the football, which was pretty, pretty amazing. But also, a friend of mine who works on The Times has just been out there doing some work on some of the policies that the Norwegian government has been doing in relation to post Covid. And because I had some connections in Norway, I was sort of able to introduce her to a few people. And I should tell you, Rory, randomly, out of the blue, I got a lovely message from the Prime Minister of Norway, who I worked with a bit in opposition, saying that he listens to our podcast every weekend, and he thinks we will make the world better informed.

• 37:46Rory Stewart?

  Oh, it's beautiful. Well, on that, I think we're going to to end and let you get out for another cycle ride in the French countryside.

• 37:53Alastair Campbell?

  I'm not having another one.

• 37:54Rory Stewart?

  All right. Bye bye.

• 37:56Alastair Campbell?

  All the best. Bye.

• 38:47Speaker 07

  Afternoon glare totally ruined my watch party for the big game. That's when my buddy recommended Blinds.com.

• 38:54Speaker 09

  With custom window treatments made to fit your style, space, and budget, customers who shop at Blinds.com experienced overwhelming satisfaction. Side effects may include a fuller, deeper night's sleep, and a sudden urge to host the watch party again. Blinds.com isn't a medication, but it can improve how you feel about your home. Visit Blinds.com to order your free samples today.

• 39:16Speaker 10

  Espolón Tequila. It arrives in a cloud of feathers with a cry to wake the dead. Espolón Tequila. Balanced, delicious. Perfect for nights out, nights in, and people who like to drink tequila. Just add ice, lime, and your mouth. Then hold on tight. 100% agave, 0% eagle. Espolón Tequila. For a real margarita, ride the rooster.

• 39:40Speaker 11

  Espolón Tequila, 40% alcohol by volume, 80 proof. Copyright 2026, Compaia America, New York, New York. Drink responsibly.