Novelist Min Jin Lee (‘Pachinko’) Has Something to Teach Us

“The rules of engagement have changed already.” Novelist Min Jin Lee (Pachinko) is a beacon of wit and wisdom. She returns to the show this week with American Hagwon https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/min-jin-lee/american-hagwon/9781538752036/?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Digital&utm_campaign=MinJinLee_AmericanHagwon_Pub_RetailClicks_Cardinal_9781538752036&utm_content=FICTION&utm_term=Interests_ROSDisplay_LiteraryFiction_GenPop&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=24294749186&gbraid=0AAAAADkiNGZUpu29M3hG6NUN13sbcEAmA&gclid=CjwKCAjw0fbWBhBkEiwAwJuQ8RD5qo7LZbap_0GbEMyKOiJu57YaS9HUu6NDf8xSw7CYKk9strkekRoCDxUQAvD_BwE, the long-awaited third installment in her Korean diaspora quartet. We begin with the ten-year process of writing American Hagwon (3:25), the thesis guiding the novel (4:00), and her experiences with education after immigrating from South Korea to Queens, New York (8:53). Then, Lee describes her process conducting thousands of interviews for the book (14:20), her relationship to security (18:18), and the staggering effects of media on young people (21:55). On the back-half, we talk about her years at Yale (32:58), how her legal training at Georgetown shaped her approach to fiction (44:32), and the risks of artificial intelligence (45:55). To close, Lee unpacks the dreams we defer for our families (1:10:22), her advice to “choose the important over the urgent” (1:20:07), and the premise for her next novel, Marshall Plan (1:26:30). Subscribe to our⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube channel⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/@talkeasypod. As always, our email: [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sam Fragoso?

  What's the controversial take?

• 0:01Speaker 01

  That education will not deliver a perfect life.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Right? That education isn't worth it.

• 0:10Sam Fragoso?

  Why is that controversial?

• 0:12Speaker 01

  Because it violates the social norms that you should tell a kid to study. Right? That the child actually needs an education. I think it's almost irresponsible to send a kid out in the world right now without having base competency. And that is actually what we're doing in America.

• 0:33Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:50Sam Fragoso?

  Today, bestselling writer Min Jin Lee. She's the author of Free Food for Millionaires and Pachinko, which became a finalist for the National Book Award back in 2017. Min and I sat for the first time in 2023 when she was writing American Hagwon, the third installment in what she now calls her Korean Diaspora Quartet. Now, three years later, the book has finally arrived. At the center is the Ko family, Helen and John, and their three children, whose pursuit of a better life is upended by economic forces largely beyond their control. The story moves through two financial crises, one in 1997, the other in 2008, and into the world of hogwans, South Korea's private educational academies,

• 1:34Sam Fragoso?

  where families spend extraordinary amounts of money in the hope of securing their children's futures. It examines a promise that has become increasingly difficult to keep, that if you work hard, study hard, and play by the rules, a better life will follow. And so that's where we begin today's conversation. With a decade of research behind American Hagwon, the families and teachers she met with along the way, and how the pressures of education have become increasingly inextricably linked to issues of class, race, and economic insecurity. We also revisit some of Min's story, immigrating to New York from South Korea as a child, her volatile years at Yale, and how being a lawyer prepared her to become an author.

• 2:19Sam Fragoso?

  Plus, we also talk about the rise of artificial intelligence, the growing insecurity facing younger generations, and why, in a world driven by urgency, Min believes we have to make room for what's really important. This is Min Jin Lee.

• 2:39Sam Fragoso?

  Min Jin Lee, welcome back to the show.

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Hey, Sam. What's up?

• 2:42Sam Fragoso?

  How are you doing?

• 2:43Speaker 01

  I'm OK. It's a little weird because I'm kind of, this tour's become really intense.

• 2:49Sam Fragoso?

  Any particular reason?

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't know all these people are going to show up.

• 2:54Sam Fragoso?

  You mean readers of yours?

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And then these venues are big. I mean, I started, I started getting on social media in 2016 because I would do events for Pachinko and two people would come, like my husband's cousin and the friend. And it was so humiliating that I thought, you know what? I need to figure out how to handle this thing called Facebook and the website and Instagram. And now people are really showing up, and I get really overwhelmed.

• 3:24Sam Fragoso?

  Since the last time we did this, every time I checked in with you, I did so very trepidatiously.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Why?

• 3:32Sam Fragoso?

  Knowing that you were in the middle of finishing this book,

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 3:35Sam Fragoso?

  which has taken a long time. And because for you, you know, good things come to those who wait.

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I'm a slow cooker.

• 3:41Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, in the best possible way.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  It's embarrassing because, you know, capitalism requires productivity and efficiency, and I'm neither, so.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  So it's kind of embarrassing, but it's, you know, I have to accept who I am.

• 3:57Sam Fragoso?

  So now that you've arrived at the book, can you describe the central family at the heart of American Hagwon for us? And where they map onto this thesis of yours? "The rules of engagement have changed already," which is the opening line of the book.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  So we have the Ko family. You have Helen and John, the mom and dad. And you have the oldest son, Bo. DH is the middle son. And then you have the third child, Mido. So it's a solidly middle-class family, but the parents grew up really, really poor. And they climbed into middle class by getting a very fancy education. They went to the equivalent of the fanciest schools for men and women in Korea.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  The dad gets a job in the West because his English is fantastic for a South Korean. And then he works for companies. He's got these three kids. The kids are born in Paramus, New Jersey, because he was working abroad. And then gradually, they come down in the world.

• 5:03Sam Fragoso?

  When did you have that thesis figured out?

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Well, it's a guiding principle and it's a thesis statement, and my novel is actually evidence. It is my argument. It is a narrative that I'm actually making about the social ills that I'm seeing in the world.

• 5:16Sam Fragoso?

  This is the former lawyer in you.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  And it's a kind of nutty proposition to start a book that way, but I wanted it to be possible for readers to kind of come back to that idea after they finish. But going back to your question about how to map this thesis with my family, my family comes down in the world because the rules of engagement have changed already.

• 5:40Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  We cannot expect the former rules to guide our current reality. Like, right now, American people, I can just speak for the Americans right now, we are feeling so anxious and worried and angry because the rules of engagement have changed already. Like, we had no warning. We got no memo. And also, most of all, we didn't get a say so in how the rules of engagement have changed. So for example, you could work at a very fancy, important, publicly traded company right now, go to work, open your email, and learn that your entire department has been fired by email. The rules of engagement have changed already. Here's another one.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  How about if that publicly traded company had fantastic earnings? Right? And they just decide, oh, we have this new principle now where we get rid of our 5% of our allegedly lowest performers, even if they didn't have lowest performers. And once they eliminate the 5%, the shareholders say, this is fantastic, and the stock goes up. And the employees are going, wait a second, I killed myself trying to do well for my department, and you're giving me up. And it's just for shareholder value.

• 6:53Sam Fragoso?

  So you felt all this a decade ago?

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Because I study economics and I look at society, and I can't believe the inhumanity of what's going on right now.

• 7:05Sam Fragoso?

  Yes. Finish what is basically an opening argument for your book.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  I am arguing that the way we behave with each other is not tenable and that you could try really, really hard and still have your heart broken by people that we thought we were supposed to trust, by institutions that we were supposed to trust, by the values that we're supposed to trust. And that's the reason why people are so frustrated. Right now, we're on the precipice of a possible global financial crisis. And as a matter of fact, almost all the economists are pretty clear that the stock market is artificially inflated by AI, the US financial markets. And unfortunately, and every economist understands this aphorism, when the US sneezes, the world gets a cold.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  Because globally, we're all linked. However, the average person just has to go to work and figure out how to fill the gas tank, how to buy eggs. And all of this relates to what's going on in the world right now with economics.

• 8:12Sam Fragoso?

  Before someone goes to work, they go to school.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:16Sam Fragoso?

  So tell me, what is a Hagwon?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  So a Hagwon is a learning center. It's just the Korean word for learning center where you pay money, but it's not formal education. So you can go to a Hagwon to learn how to play the flute. You can go to a Hagwon to learn how to tap dance. You can go to a Hagwon to learn Mexican cooking in Korea. And South Korean people really believe that hogwans are something that's part of the culture, and it's a good thing. Or they could think it's a bad thing when it relates to the cost for education for kids who are going to schools.

• 8:46Sam Fragoso?

  You've called them ethnic solutions to a state problem.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Wow, that's very, very good.

• 8:53Sam Fragoso?

  Your family moved from South Korea to the US, I think almost exactly 50 years ago.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Exactly 50 years ago.

• 9:00Sam Fragoso?

  Is that right?

• 9:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, March, March 1976.

• 9:02Sam Fragoso?

  So growing up inside that apartment complex in Queens, metal mailboxes, checkered linoleum, what did education mean to your family?

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Well, my parents thought that we would do well, but they don't really believe in giving guidance about education.

• 9:21Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean?

• 9:22Speaker 01

  My mom and my dad are very laissez-faire about education, especially my mother, who went to a very fancy college in Korea. And she was a piano teacher. So her whole theory is you just sort of do what you need to do, but I can't make you study. I can't make you go to a certain kind of school. And also, I wouldn't even try. That's my mother, in a nutshell. And I've actually met a lot of moms like this.

• 9:51Sam Fragoso?

  Because she thought, if you wanted to study, you'll study? And if you don't want to study, you won't?

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, and she just thinks that if you interfere too much with a child's progress, then the child doesn't really develop.

• 10:04Sam Fragoso?

  So what did she think of hogwans?

• 10:06Speaker 01

  She thought that we didn't need them.

• 10:08Sam Fragoso?

  Because you were so special?

• 10:09Speaker 01

  No, because I think she thought they were excessive. So in Korea, we didn't go to hogwans. And also, I have to say that Koreans didn't focus on hogwans nearly as much until the financial crisis.

• 10:20Sam Fragoso?

  Since you gave me the book a few months ago. I have to say, between Mido and Min, a lot of crossover.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanted that. I wanted that especially in childhood. As a child, I was really quiet and awkward, and I didn't know how to make conversation. And also, I didn't have any friends.

• 10:44Sam Fragoso?

  That seems almost impossible for me to imagine.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  In light of the fact that I'm so adorable now, yes.

• 10:49Sam Fragoso?

  Exactly. That's kind of what I'm getting at.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  I think I started to have friends around middle school, and it's something that I really worked on. And also, I have to give credit to a lot of teachers and librarians because they gave me the tools, and mainly, they gave me novels.

• 11:03Sam Fragoso?

  When you were going to school, I think it was in the Bronx, right? That was in high school. Did you have an experience in class where you were punished for some reason?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  So, when I was in Korea, I was punished. So, when I was little, I think I was six years old and in first grade, I went to the local school in Seoul. And because I'm tall and we were sitting in size order, I was all the way in the back. And after I finished my worksheet, I got up and I walked back and forth.

• 11:34Sam Fragoso?

  You were pacing.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  I was pacing. You're not supposed to do that. But I didn't know that because I, there was something wrong with me. And my brain doesn't work that way. So, I was pacing. So, the teacher calls me up. I go to the front of the classroom. She says, "Hold out your hands. I think I'm gonna get a present." Because, again, I cannot read the social cues. So, then I hold out my hands, and then she, you know, with a ruler, really whacked me. So, I did this a couple of times. And I think, obviously, no bones were broken. I didn't go to the hospital. But I didn't tell my parents about it.

• 12:11Sam Fragoso?

  Why not?

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Because I thought it was my fault. Because I thought, oh, I shouldn't be walking back and forth. And that there's something wrong with, I mean, I knew there was something different about me. I shouldn't say wrong, but there was, I did, really did feel there was something wrong.

• 12:27Sam Fragoso?

  I gotta say, in every interview, you say, "There's something wrong with me. There's something off about me," over and over again.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  I think in the 21st century, and especially in America, we have so much more respect for neurodivergence. So, clearly, now, I think, oh, I probably needed more attention, but it couldn't have been given because my parents were really occupied. But no, I don't think that there's something wrong. I think I was different. But you know what? We can say all the right things, but that feeling, when you're young, is quite persistent. There's a lot of loneliness. And also, I knew that my sisters are really brilliant. And I think, so one was really brilliant socially, and one was really brilliant intellectually, and in terms of leadership. So, then I knew that it wasn't about being Korean, or female, or immigrant, or any of those things,

• 13:16Speaker 01

  because they seemed to be able to handle life so well. And when you have the domestic comparison, again, you think, I'm off. And then also, because I had to work so much harder than my sisters, in terms of the effort, I think my father was kind of concerned. So, he would routinely tell me to go to sleep instead of studying. So, that was my childhood. And I think that goes against the stereotype of these overbearing parents. I did not have those parents.

• 13:45Sam Fragoso?

  Did your classmates have them?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Actually, no. As a matter of fact, sometimes, like, I hear about all this sort of stereotyping of Asian-American parents and Asian parents. I think some of that's true. But very often, you might have one parent who might be that way, but not the other one. And I think that the thing that I really care about is accuracy and fairness. And this is a reason why I really loathe this toxic stereotyping of Asian parents.

• 14:12Sam Fragoso?

  Well, accuracy and fairness, I think, is like undergirding this entire book.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 14:17Sam Fragoso?

  And to make it possible, you did a tremendous amount of research and interviews over the last 10 years.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:25Sam Fragoso?

  Who did you speak with?

• 14:27Speaker 01

  I spoke to Koreans all over the world. I spoke to Haegwan teachers, Haegwan students. I spoke to parents. I visited the schools in which the kids went to, and I also visited the Haegwans, which are separate, right? And I went to neighborhoods. I went to houses. I went to the cafes where the kids hung out.

• 14:46Sam Fragoso?

  And your pitch is what? You go up to them, you say, "Look, it took me 10 years to write Free Food for Millionaires. It took me another 10 to write Pachinko. This will probably take me a long time. It may never even come out. Who knows?" "So, speak to me openly." Is that the pitch?

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you've heard it. Have you? Have you talked to my interviewees? Well, it is easier now to get an interview than it was in the beginning.

• 15:14Sam Fragoso?

  Because of all the awards and prizes you've won?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Well, and people think I'm serious enough. And also, it's easier. You know why? Because I write fiction. Because no one's gonna be quoted. And that's very important. People don't get nervous about it. And also, I never record.

• 15:28Sam Fragoso?

  Do you write longhand?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Well, I kind of loosely take notes, but mostly, what I'm doing is getting their tone. So, the definition of tone in fiction is the attitude that the writer has toward her material. That's really what tone is, which is different than style. And so, when I'm with an interview subject, I am listening to what they're saying, and I am getting information. However, what I'm really trying to figure out is, well, what is a plumber like when you hang out with him? Who might have gotten an education in another country? Right? And what is a software engineer like? Like, how does she drink her coffee?

• 16:07Sam Fragoso?

  Were there kind of big overarching questions that you had, that you asked everyone?

• 16:12Speaker 01

  You know what's really funny? Is that I would start with a South Korean person, a parent, let's say, or a kid who's going to Haegwans. And I would say, "Well, what do you think about Haegwans?" And they're like, "Ah," you know, "It's like the worst thing ever." And they start complaining about the money of it. Because, let's say, you have $40,000 a year as a household. And if you're spending $400 a month for your four-year-old to learn English, that's a very sacrificial amount of money. It's meaningful, right? And that's the money that you're not, let's say, saving towards your retirement. So, you can see why a parent would feel irritated by this. And very often, I would sort of ask more questions, like, "Well, then, why do you do it?" Right?

• 16:54Speaker 01

  It doesn't make that much sense. And they would start explaining what they went through by not having that English language capacity.

• 17:02Sam Fragoso?

  Well, tell me more about that.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  So, in Korea, in South Korea, if you want to get a job in a pretty good company, you have to have a TOEIC score, T-O-E-I-C. Now, that's separate from your college where you go. And that TOEIC score will establish your native fluency of English language. Now, they're not natives. They're South Koreans, and they have a primary language. So, in order to establish native fluency and to be evaluated with this TOEIC score, you start your kid really early. Or you send your kid to the Philippines with the wife. Or you send them to, let's say, Orange County, when they're nine or 10 years old,

• 17:46Speaker 01

  to get this other skill. Because, and I think that people who speak English, Anglophones, aren't quite aware of what you have, a kind of global cultural dominance and supremacy of the English language. And South Koreans have gotten the message. You have to learn it, and your kids have to have this thing. And once you figure that out, you're like, well, I guess it makes sense to spend $400 a month for your four-year-old, because you love your kid, and you want to give them the every possible advantage.

• 18:16Sam Fragoso?

  I'll do whatever I have to do to.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:18Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. There's a passage in the book, I think this comes from a pastor. And he says, "Which gods do we bow down to today? To what gods do we sacrifice our children? For what? For what do we give up everything? What do you love more than your child? What do you love more than God?" he asked.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think one of the things I'm really also trying to cover is idolatry and security. So, idolatry is when you love something too much. Like, you can say, "I like money, and we need money," but you can say, "I love money too much, and therefore, I will do not good things to get more money." However, security is something else. What do you base your security on? Like, do I base my security in the fact that I have a lot of money in the bank? Or that I could earn a lot of money? Or that my friends are gonna cover for me if I don't have that money? So, we have to always ask that question. What do you count on?

• 19:14Sam Fragoso?

  What do you count on?

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Well, I have a lot of love in my life. So that's my big flex. I have a terrific family. I have a really good partner. And I also have a lot of faith in my religion. So all those things make me feel like I could try difficult things.

• 19:38Sam Fragoso?

  But in the book, you does get after this idea that there's kind of a bowing at the altar of higher education.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah. I think it's very prevalent, not just in South Korea, but also in China, in India, Pakistan, so many different countries, and in the United States, among the upper middle class and middle class families. If you look at varsity blues, right? Those weren't Asian people who paid $100,000 to have another person take a test for them. So very often, we could pathologize Asian parenting and what Asians are willing to do, and aren't they crazy? But I'm like, mm, look at varsity blues.

• 20:19Sam Fragoso?

  You don't believe they're uniquely obsessed with this?

• 20:22Speaker 01

  No, I actually think it's because people are afraid. Like, when you're a parent, I gotta tell you, you're just afraid. Like, you love your kid, but you're also afraid.

• 20:32Sam Fragoso?

  Can you read a passage from the book?

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Sure. Oh, me? Okay.

• 20:36Sam Fragoso?

  No one wants to hear me read it.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Actually, you got a great voice. Okay. As educated and earnest, middle-class parents, Helen and John had provided more than the basics, and certainly more than they had been given as children of poor parents. Parenting was a haphazard experiment for even the best-intentioned humans. And Helen and John observed Bo, D H, and Mido with profound fascination, as only parents can. Each child was immutably distinct from the others. When Helen read a sad story in the news about a child who had gone astray, rarely did she assign blame to the parents. Life had taught her that the debate between nature and nurture was almost moot.

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Excellent parents sometimes had badly behaved children, and careless parents could have admirably performing progeny. The bond between a human and her child was binding, yet it had to be loosened. A mother had to love, and a child had to grow up. The results were often out of one's hands.

• 21:47Sam Fragoso?

  I think that's gonna be a mighty frustrating sentiment.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  But it's true. I think it's really easy to blame people and parents for how things work out. And I have to say that, right now, to be a parent of a young child, or even a grown child, is incredibly difficult, because there are so many forces that are really freaking out the young person. Right now, in order for a young person to exist, they have to be given a fire hose of information that doesn't ever end. So if a young person is feeling anxious, they have every right to feel anxious, and they're also surrounded by adults who are really anxious.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  So we're in this ocean of over-information and anxiety, and we're giving it to each other like a virus. And I don't see any cures. It's really hard to find leaders who are going to make us feel calmer, to say, it's gonna work out, I got this, you can relax because you're seven, or 17, or 27. And I don't see that leadership right now.

• 22:55Sam Fragoso?

  With all these interviews, I want to go back to one part, which is that you talk to all these parents. You talk to the kids of these parents.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:03Sam Fragoso?

  You said, I've had thousands of interviews, and every single one of them, they talk about education with a very controversial take.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:10Sam Fragoso?

  What's the controversial take?

• 23:12Speaker 01

  That education will not deliver a perfect life. Right? That education isn't worth it.

• 23:21Sam Fragoso?

  Why is that controversial?

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Because it violates the social norms that you should tell a kid to study. Right? That the child actually needs an education. I think it's almost irresponsible to send a kid out in the world right now without having base competency. And that is actually what we're doing in America. American children right now, if you look at the data, are so incredibly falling behind against the world. And it's very difficult to talk about this conversation, because then people will immediately blame the parents. And if you know that over almost, I think, half the children in America are growing up with single parents who are working, I really don't know how that single parent is supposed

• 24:08Speaker 01

  to get health insurance by having a job, find proper housing, and witness how a child is being completely made a beta tester for all the different technology platforms, which are monetized, driven primarily by engagement.

• 24:26Sam Fragoso?

  And within these stories, you say, contradiction is where I find plot.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:33Sam Fragoso?

  So let's complicate the story a little bit. When you talk to these parents, when you talk to these kids, what were the contradictions or the kind of inflection points that you then used and funnels back into the book?

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Oh, easy. A parent will say, I hate hogwans, I hate paying for them. And I'm like, then why do you do it? Why do you send your kid? Right there, that's a huge gap between behavior, philosophy, and actual sacrificial payment towards a thing in which you can't prove the outcome. You can't prove that just because you pay all this money that your kid's going to become decent, healthy, and capable.

• 25:16Sam Fragoso?

  Why was it important to anchor the book in these two very different economic crises?

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Because we're feeling this now. I think that we are clearly on the edge of possible collapse of the economy, and it's been a long time coming. The 401K plans that a lot of us have are dependent upon the artificial inflation of AI markets. There's no proof in earnings for a lot of these AI companies, and yet, money keeps being driven toward this, and the stock market is being inflated by it. Almost all middle-class and upper-middle-class people are affected by this, and we're not talking about it, because if we ignore it, it's gonna go away. But the markets are quite honest.

• 26:06Sam Fragoso?

  Can you tell people what happened in 1997 that works its way into the book?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  So the Asian financial crisis, which really didn't affect the US very much, was when, it happened in multiple countries, it started in Thailand, but in South Korea specifically, South Korean companies borrowed a lot of money. And obviously, in South Korea, their currency is the won, and it was pegged against the US dollar, which is the default currency of the world. And when the won was devalued, because they were considered a less credit-worthy debtor, their debt became impossible to pay. So South Korean government basically defaulted as an economy. The IMF septum loaned a bunch of money to South Korean countries, to the South Korean

• 26:55Speaker 01

  companies, pardon me. And these companies, some of them had to go bankrupt, people lost their jobs, and obviously, they weren't hiring. So imagine coming out of school in that economy, and there are no jobs for three years. Several huge factors and huge numbers of South Koreans actually left South Korea because of economic opportunity. Why is this important? Very often, when there is a kind of global shock, or an economic shock that affects your country, there are people who actually do quite well. If you have a lot of money, you can actually buy a lot of distressed assets, and you're gonna kill it in the market. But for all those other people who are left holding the bag, who don't have money to

• 27:39Speaker 01

  pick up cheap things, it's like, imagine like a store goes on sale, or they go out of business, and everything costs very little. If you have money, it's great for you, but for the business owner, it's really lousy. And also, if you're a middle-class person, you don't have extra money, you're not gonna get that value. What does society say? Well, you're the chump. You should have known better. And I'm saying, no, the rules of engagement have changed already. There's no way you could have known. Absolutely no way. And therefore, at every time something happens, what are you gonna do? And that requires, I think, wisdom.

• 28:13Sam Fragoso?

  And you find wisdom where?

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Well, life's gonna keep schooling you until you either fall flat on your face, or you brush yourself off and pick yourself up.

• 28:23Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I think after the break, why don't we talk about a few instances where you fell flat on your face?

• 28:31Speaker 01

  Oh, so many times.

• 28:32Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. I'll have them all down right here.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 28:36Sam Fragoso?

  Let's come in next with Min Jin Lee.

• 28:41Sam Fragoso?

  Recently, I went up to San Francisco for a conference. It was a very, very quick trip and one that I spent most of my time meeting new people and having a lot of candid conversations. But in between meetings and presentations and talking, we had unreasonably, unseasonably good weather for San Francisco. And so with that good weather, I made good use of it. I walked around the city, met up with friends for dinner, went into some bookstores. And those couple of days just made me think about breaking out of our normal routines, even if it's just for a quick work trip, and how you notice the things that give each city its own unique character. As a result, I've been thinking differently about my own place when I'm away.

• 29:22Sam Fragoso?

  Rather than simply letting it sit empty while I travel, I've considered listing my space on Airbnb and giving someone visiting Los Angeles a comfortable home where they can discover the city for themselves. Maybe they'll find a neighborhood restaurant they love or a museum they didn't know about. And the extra income can help offset my costs for a future trip. So next time you're planning a getaway for yourself, why not consider listing your space while you're gone? Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host. October always feels different. As the fall rolls around, my morning routine begins to change. The sun comes up later, days get shorter, and even in Los Angeles, there's a noticeable shift in the season.

• 30:07Sam Fragoso?

  It can take a little bit more effort to get moving in the morning, especially when you have a full day ahead. That's one reason I've appreciated having AG1 in my routine. I make it with one scoop in cold water, usually the first thing in the morning. Sometimes I'll blend it into a smoothie. It takes just about a minute to do and make, and it's become one of those habits that I don't have to think a whole lot about in the morning. AG1 Next Gen combines more than 75 ingredients, including vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, and superfoods. It's backed by four clinical trials as well, with research showing improvements in key nutrient levels within three months of consistent use. And as we head into the colder months, I also appreciate that AG1 is formulated to support immune health.

• 30:52Sam Fragoso?

  For me, it's not about making some dramatic change to my routine every season. It's about finding a few things that work, sticking with them, and knowing I'm giving my body nutritional support even when the rest of my schedule is changing. Go to drinkag1.com/talkeasy and for a limited time, get a free immune support bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/talkeasy. With Black Friday and the holidays approaching, it's a busy time of year for retailers. Even over here at Talk Easy, we've been selling mugs for, I think, six or seven years now.

• 31:35Sam Fragoso?

  After we made our first batch in 2020, we didn't really know how to get our orders at the door. And to all of you who bought them, that's where ShipStation came in to help. It's an all-in-one shipping platform that brings orders from your online stores into one place, so you're not jumping in between different websites trying to keep track of what needs to be sent out. ShipStation also compares shipping rates across UPS, USPS, and FedEx in real time with savings up to 90% off. More than a million businesses have relied on ShipStation, and our team has come to understand why firsthand. As we make our show each week, we want to spend our time focusing on the edit and the

• 32:16Sam Fragoso?

  product and the tape itself, not figuring out how to keep track of orders and get packages in transit. Peak season doesn't wait, and frankly, neither should you. Get ahead of it today with ShipStation and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with code TALKEASY. That's shipstation.com code TALKEASY. Taxes and fees apply. I think the best clothes you own are probably the ones you spend the least amount of time thinking about. They're just there when you need them. The sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants or the tee you always reach for first. That's what I've always liked about Quince. They focus on everyday staples made with premium materials like organic cotton, merino wool, and 100% Mongolian cashmere.

• 33:01Sam Fragoso?

  Their cashmere sweaters start at just $60, and everything is designed to be versatile enough to work with what you already own. And now that the temperatures are starting to drop, they also have premium down jackets and classic wool outerwear. Easy layers that can carry you through the fall and into winter. I've had a few of their merino wool all-season tees for just over a year now, and they've really become my go-to in my wardrobe. The quality was the thing that surprised me when I first tried them out. They're comfortable, easy to layer, and after a year of wearing them regularly, they've held up remarkably well. I use them all the time and would absolutely recommend them. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, which allows them to price everything 50% to 80% less than similar brands.

• 33:45Sam Fragoso?

  So you're paying for the quality of the materials rather than a big brand markup. It's not just clothing. Quince brings that same approach to hotel-quality bedding and bath, kitchen essentials, and thoughtfully designed furniture, well-made pieces for everyday living. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. You can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Talk Easy. It's really the best way to support the show. Enjoy. MUBI is a global film company bringing great cinema to the world and to you.

• 34:28Sam Fragoso?

  Everything at MUBI is handpicked with an emphasis on visionary filmmakers and movies worth discovering. One new movie is called Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma, from writer-director Jane Seanbrun, who made the film I Saw the TV Glow. The film stars Hannah Einbinder and Gillian Anderson. It follows a young director tasked with resurrecting Camp Miasma, a once-beloved slasher franchise that after years of sequels has fallen out of favor. Looking for inspiration, she visits the reclusive actress who starred in the original film. But what begins at an attempt to revive the franchise soon pulls the two women into a blood-soaked world of desire, fear, and delirium. It's a world-expanding, genre-bending movie from one of the most distinctive filmmakers working today.

• 35:12Sam Fragoso?

  Teenage Sex and Death at Camp Miasma is now streaming exclusively on MUBI. You can try MUBI free for 30 days at mubi.com/talkeasy. That's mubi, M-U-B-I, dot com slash talkeasy for a whole month of great cinema for free. Coming back. "The paradox of education is this: that as one begins to become conscious, one begins to examine the society in which one is being educated." That's a quote from James Baldwin, but it also appears as an epigraph in the book. Can we talk about Yale?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 35:53Sam Fragoso?

  1986, you're wearing horn-rimmed glasses with short, bobbed hair.

• 35:59Speaker 01

  My mom cut that hair.

• 36:01Sam Fragoso?

  And in short order, you spearhead a campaign to persuade the university to offer courses in Korean language and history. After pulling off that feed, did you yourself enroll in a Korean history class?

• 36:17Speaker 01

  I did enroll in a Korean history class. It was offered in my junior year, and the Korean language wasn't offered until I graduated.

• 36:25Sam Fragoso?

  And how was the class?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  When I first took the class, I thought it was great because I was learning the thing that I really wanted to learn. And then it got awful when I took the midterm. And it was an in-class midterm. And in the Blue Book, I learned that I had failed the exam. He gave me an F, and then he wrote the words, "Ah, me, what's to say?"

• 36:46Sam Fragoso?

  A professor wrote that?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  A professor wrote that, a 10-year-famous professor, yeah.

• 36:51Sam Fragoso?

  "Ah, me, what's to say?" As in, what you've written is so dumb...

• 36:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:57Sam Fragoso?

  ...that I have nothing to say?

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Like, it's the opposite of no notes. It's like, I'd have so many notes, I'm not going to give you even an inkling as to why you failed. Like, I got the same grade as if I didn't show up.

• 37:09Sam Fragoso?

  Right. What was that all about?

• 37:13Speaker 01

  I don't know what he was thinking, truly. However, I do know that what I felt was a sense of outrage. I felt outrage. And also, I was really hurt. And also, so many Asian-American kids failed, and they were really upset that I decided to do something about it.

• 37:33Sam Fragoso?

  What did you do?

• 37:34Speaker 01

  I asked him, "Could you give the racial breakdown of the grades?"

• 37:38Sam Fragoso?

  And he obliged?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  He did, he did. And then he...

• 37:42Sam Fragoso?

  It's kind of shocking that he agreed to that.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  I think it's because he thought that we were so dumb or unable to process what that would mean. And he was so unaware of his own complicity in what he was doing, that not only did he give all the data of the racial breakdown, he even offered, without questioning, that the reason why so many of us who are Asian-Americans failed or did poorly is because all of us were STEM majors. And as a history major, I was really, really upset by this.

• 38:21Sam Fragoso?

  Why do you think he was so flippant?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Well, he thinks like a lot of people think, that Asians are very passive, that we're not going to make trouble, and that we are...

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Easy to dismiss.

• 38:35Sam Fragoso?

  He thought you would take the F quietly?

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Well, once I knew that he thought that the reason why we did poorly, including me, was because I'm a STEM major, then I knew I'm dealing with somebody who has a very crooked philosophy about human beings. I think that to assume that because of my physiognomy, that you read me as Asian, to assume that I have the culture and knowledge of an Asian person is preposterous. It's like saying somebody's Italian American and therefore should understand the formation of modern Italy. I don't know why, but non-Asians are often thinking that Asians are one way or the other. And if we don't have evidence of our culture in the mainstream media, as well as in terms of mainstream education,

• 39:23Speaker 01

  this will persist.

• 39:24Sam Fragoso?

  In the paper, you wrote, "How many professors does it take? How many abuses? How many subtle and insidious comments does it take to quash a young dream? To what and to whom do we defer these dreams?" What was the response of your fellow classmates to that piece?

• 39:42Speaker 01

  They thought I was wrong. They thought that I was dumb and I should have gotten the F. And then they thought that I was being ungrateful to complain against a very famous tenure professor. And kids even took the time to write letters to the newspaper. So one Korean-American male wrote that I was overreacting and that it would be upsetting if you got an F, but clearly I must have deserved it. So the presumption was that the professor was right and that I'm wrong. So his Confucianism was clearly too internalized. And there was a white American male who called me a PC terrorist.

• 40:20Sam Fragoso?

  He wrote, "The motivation for this view is more misguided than malicious. Those who, for instance, blame normal academic failing to the covert racism in the classroom hope to soothe personal insecurities by calling wolf. Yet Min Jin Lee's public attack on her Korean history professor is like McCarthyism in reverse, as demagogic as unfounded. Tactics like hers are more troublemaking than problem-solving."

• 40:49Speaker 01

  And to read that as a junior, and to think that this person couldn't have come to me personally, he's my peer, right? And then he was trying to paint me as somebody who was being a rabble-rouser, when he didn't know that I had spent all of my energies in my sophomore year to create the Korea Studies Task Force, wrote letters, created an entire campaign, raised $100,000.

• 41:20Sam Fragoso?

  Problem-solving.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Problem-solving.

• 41:22Sam Fragoso?

  When you read that as a college student, and you're thinking, okay, I don't know what to do next or where to go next. I mean...

• 41:30Speaker 01

  And I couldn't tell my parents.

• 41:32Sam Fragoso?

  Who did you tell?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  I had, so for example, I got a, I got a death threat, because it was in line with that person's letter.

• 41:45Sam Fragoso?

  What did the threat say?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  It said that I'm gonna kill you and you should deserve to die. So I took it to the police. And I also told other adults about it in my life. And somehow that letter ended up in the hands of Rabbi James Ponet, P-O-N-E-T. And he wrote me the loveliest letter, which I still have, and which confirms the death threat and it confirms the fact that all this happened. He said that it took courage to fight for what you believe in, and that these things happen to people who are brave. And I remember thinking, that was like, I didn't know this person. He didn't have to write me that letter. And I did find that consoling. So I think that sometimes when all these things happen, am I gonna believe the bad guy or the good guy? And I always choose to try to see the decency

• 42:32Speaker 01

  in people.

• 42:33Sam Fragoso?

  So from this, I imagine you deferring your writing dreams and going to law school is not disconnected from this culture of academic racism, whatever you want to call it, the death threats. I mean, certainly, this is not an encouraging climate.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Well, I wanted to get a PhD in history. And then after that happened, I think all the history professors basically kind of like got the memo that this is a volatile, dangerous young person. And it was very funny, because I took a really hot seminar, like it was hard to get into. And I wrote a paper about Jane Adams. And the first thing he said to me, the first paper that I handed in, he said, "Well, you know, you really need help with remedial English. So you should get tutoring." And he was very kind of paternalistic and nice about it. And that year, in my junior year, I had written a personal essay, and it was submitted to the English department on blind submission.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  So it didn't say Min Jin Lee on it. And that year, I won the top prize for nonfiction. So when he said this to me, my senior year, I said to him, "It's not that I don't know how to write. It's that you don't know how to read." And then I dropped the class. Because I wouldn't have done that again of writing a public letter and fighting, because I was so exhausted. But that was two history professors in my own department. It's kind of astonishing to me that people can't recognize, you could love a college and also see that there's evidence of racism. Like, you can love America and still say, "There is racism." It's both.

• 44:21Sam Fragoso?

  It's interesting, because in preparation, I've reread all the interviews you've done.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. There's so many.

• 44:29Sam Fragoso?

  There are so many, and yet not really. Because you have a very tidy way of explaining these situations and explaining how you pivoted from them, how you endured during... The line, for example, "It's not that I don't know how to write. It's that you don't know how to read." I've heard you deliver this line. To thunderous applause.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:54Sam Fragoso?

  People going to your book, to your book events for this tour, I'm sure it'll be sold out. You will say this. They will love that. I don't think it accounts for the teenager and the person in their early twenties who was at school.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:12Sam Fragoso?

  I don't hear that person in that quote. I hear the writer who's published three very successful novels. The woman who was in their twenties, dealing with an illness, wanting to do history but not being encouraged to do so. Where is that person in this experience that we've been talking about?

• 45:34Speaker 01

  I think that at the time, I was so hurt. And it's really important to say, when you feel hurt, why you feel hurt. And I was hurt because I really wanted them to like me.

• 45:49Sam Fragoso?

  Who?

• 45:50Speaker 01

  The professors. And I really wanted the school to like me. I wanted my peers to like me. This is a, I'm a person who, growing up, didn't have a whole lot of friends. It took me so much effort to figure out how to talk to other people and to make friendships. And in high school, I had this wonderful experience of being around fellow nerds in which I sort of flourished. And then I go to college. It's a very fancy college. I'm completely outdistanced by my peers, who had a different kind of education and a different kind of background and access to things that were like out of the realm of imagination

• 46:31Speaker 01

  for me. But I still had this very fundamental belief, I think as a Korean, that you respect your professors, that you respect the privileges that you've been given. And when that trust was broken, I was really depressed. So when I think about all the issues that I had in college, and for which I didn't have the name for, like, I didn't understand that I could be depressed. When I look back, I go, oh, you had an eating disorder, you were depressed, you retreated from everybody that you knew, you were dating the wrong person. Like, there are all these things that I had, and I realized, oh, you're acting out.

• 47:11Sam Fragoso?

  Leaving Yale, you said, "I felt disillusioned with my political ideals, betrayed by my own body, alienated from some of my classmates, and I felt ready to leave campus." So when you go study law at Georgetown, then become an attorney, does your love of research, this kind of opening and closing argument that we talked about in the first act, does that come from your time as a, as a junior attorney?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  No, I actually think, I think it comes from my love of history. Because history is just a chronicle of what happened. So we can have a very short history. Like, let's say you want to acquire a company, Sam, and you say, "Go look at the company that I want to acquire." And then I would look at all their records, which is basically primary documents. It's not that different. And I approached it not as a lawyer, but almost as a historian. And therefore, I was very thorough in my research. After I stopped being a lawyer, I feel very thorough in my research as well.

• 48:13Sam Fragoso?

  And yet, I can't help but think that that job is one of the first jobs that artificial intelligence is coming after.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:22Sam Fragoso?

  Is that kind of white collar, you know, go through documents, et cetera, et cetera. The act of doing it, the friction and the frustration and the tedium and the boredom.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  And the humility.

• 48:35Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  And the humiliation, actually.

• 48:37Sam Fragoso?

  Both.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:38Sam Fragoso?

  When that's gone, like, if AI can shoulder the downsides, what is the upside for us?

• 48:46Speaker 01

  I'm gonna tell you about efficiency. And if you look at it, understanding capitalism, when you had the assembly line created, the efficiency flowed directly in the asset savings to the asset owner. So when you tell a person, "I only want you to turn the screw," and somebody else will move the screw to another widget, by separating all the different tasks, then you only become good at one little thing. You used to be very good at all of it. But then that efficiency that you have by making that task faster, the time and

• 49:28Speaker 01

  the money that's saved goes towards the owner. Now, when we have the efficiency of AI with the application of due diligence, what you do is you give that savings to either the law firm itself, and that's changing very rapidly, because clients are saying now, "You don't need to have an associate look at this for 100 hours. You can do this in an hour." So I want those savings. So now, big firms are really negotiating with their clients.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  That's about money. But what does that mean in terms of human beings? It is absolutely a disaster for a young training lawyer to not have that experience of turning the page, not understanding exactly how this relates to the larger needs of the company. The large language model is essentially a play in which they perform an anticipation game with the user. So we're going to just look at whatever we have in the past, but they're not thinking exactly how it relates to the world and also with the needs of the client. So I actually think you could take some efficiency, but you're going to miss a whole lot of stuff.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  It's kind of like when you have specialization in medicine, you're like, oh, my foot hurts. So you go to a foot doctor or a tibodiatrist and he might say, oh, well, regarding the foot, this is what I know. But it could be that actually you have a hip problem and that's the reason why your foot hurts. Right? So then you maybe should have looked at an orthopedic surgeon. So you go to the orthopedic surgeon and they're like, yeah, your hip, there's something wrong with it. But it actually turns out that perhaps you're taking the wrong supplements and it's causing your liver to have a dysfunction, which causes a hip to hurt. And eventually the first thing that you noticed and wanted to complain about was your foot. That requires holistic thinking.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  And that is being done less and less, except for people who are very, very expensive to see. When I see people who are the best at what they do, one, they charge an enormous amount of money because human beings aren't scalable. And then they're actually thinking about you in a very, very different way. And I actually think those people will actually be employable for always.

• 51:42Sam Fragoso?

  Those people?

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Yes, but as we become more and more de-skilled, other people are still upskilling. And that's what I see in America as well. We are having some children who are very, very upskilled, but the majority of us are slowly allowing ourselves be more and more de-skilled.

• 52:01Sam Fragoso?

  To go back to the beginning, you know, in education, you grew up in a time where you said, they couldn't quite account for a kid like me.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:10Sam Fragoso?

  The kind of neurodivergence, maybe.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Awkward.

• 52:13Sam Fragoso?

  Awkward, et cetera. You have, I'm sure you remember that piece in the Atlantic a couple of years ago, elite college students who can't read books. Going back even further to high school, approximately 32% of 12th graders scored below basic reading levels in 2025, compared with 24% of 12th graders who scored below this level in 2002.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  The average reading level for the average American is sixth grade. If you don't have a solid education in which you can actually discern truth, then we actually don't have a country that's going to work. And right now, we don't have a government that works very well. The Department of Education itself has been gutted in the past two years and that, and nationally, that's where they run Pell Grants, which is the money that goes to the poorest among us who go to college. It's not even that much money, if you think about the cost of education. So, reading levels, math levels, reading comprehension, and also in terms of our capacity, it's all being tested and we are globally falling behind.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  And every single parent and guardian of a child, the thing that you want to do is equip the child to be able to handle all the changes. And they cannot because public school systems aren't working. It's not the teacher's fault.

• 53:32Sam Fragoso?

  But as you describe like these concurrent crises, I'm thinking of a young kid right now. How and why would they not use artificial intelligence?

• 53:42Speaker 01

  The kids are going to use it because children are amazing at detecting hypocrisy. So if the adults are using it, the kids are going to use it. And also it's totally legal to do so. And the creep of technology into the classroom with the introduction of Chromebooks, with the introduction of platforms that organize everybody's homework, then you can't not use these things. And even before AI, a child was basically one link away from pornography and violence. We have done almost nothing to safeguard the children. So I kind of think all the rhetoric about how we care about children is absolutely bullshit until we start making these changes and making them not just for rich kids and for kids who

• 54:27Speaker 01

  get to go to private schools and have smaller classrooms, but actually for the entire nation.

• 54:32Sam Fragoso?

  You spent a decade.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:35Sam Fragoso?

  Interviewing kids and parents about education.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:38Sam Fragoso?

  Are your concerns the ones that you found in your interviews? Like if you brought this, these existential risks up, was that in the lived experiences of the people that you spoke with?

• 54:50Speaker 01

  The lived experiences of the people that I spoke with, especially about this era, was they were terrified of having financial instability. I don't think we're any less terrified of having financial instability if you don't have generational wealth. So we can talk about technology, we could talk about a financial crisis, we could talk about the bond markets, but at the end of the day, when you're a parent, you love your kid, but you're terrified for your kid. And the best protection against the terror and the best insurance for the love is to equip your child to have the skills needed to function in a very fast-changing environment.

• 55:31Sam Fragoso?

  That, that central tension is at the heart of that piece by Nicole Hannah-Jones in the New York Times Magazine. Did you read that?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  I did. Which one? The first one or the second one?

• 55:43Sam Fragoso?

  Well, they're, they're connected, aren't they?

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, by, by a decade.

• 55:45Sam Fragoso?

  So she, she sent her daughter to a public school in New York and 10 years later, she published a piece, a sort of, I don't know, an appraisal of that decision, I don't know how you call it. The headline is, "In Fighting For Every Black Child, Did I Betray My Own?" Now, people have had a lot of loud responses to this, but I, I have been wondering how you've made sense of it.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  I think, what I really feel for her is actually admiration for telling the truth. Her wish to reconcile her decisions with also the opinions of a teenage daughter.

• 56:22Sam Fragoso?

  Yes.

• 56:23Speaker 01

  That takes guts.

• 56:24Sam Fragoso?

  I thought so too.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  And the other thing that I did notice about the second essay is how often she talks about tutoring. She mentions it a lot. Like if you did like a, a word check, it would show up quite a bit.

• 56:37Sam Fragoso?

  It was her hog one.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Right, it was her hog one. And she was kind of saying, I'm going to turn to other people when the public schools don't meet the needs. And my argument is if you ask educators, they will routinely say, some children respond better to tutoring. And there should be supplemental tutoring because they need to catch up. And also, when you have a child who's significantly behind the others, it causes disruptions in the teaching. Because how will they possibly catch up? Like if you're teaching calculus and one student doesn't know algebra, it ain't going to happen. So tutoring is something that is very effective, however, it costs money. And how much do we invest in getting tutoring for every child? So I thought it was really interesting to me that she's talking about tutoring to help

• 57:23Speaker 01

  her child. And perhaps she got tutoring for the other children in the schools too. But I thought it was fair to talk about tutoring because as a parent, you're kind of thinking, well, if my kid needs therapy or tutoring or a different kind of doctor, you want to provide that for him or her or them. But in our country, how much do we really care about the individual child's need in public education? And that discussion's not happening. I think to pile on to Nicole Hannah-Jones about her parenting choices, even when she talks about them, is kind of bonkers. Like her decision to write about her kid and what she did, and she argues it as a moral

• 58:08Speaker 01

  choice. Those are her direct quote. And I thought, you know what? Somebody's moral choice is something that I'm going to honor.

• 58:15Sam Fragoso?

  The moral choice being that she had the means to send her kid to, to a private school or to.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  Or to a specialized, different neighborhood school.

• 58:22Sam Fragoso?

  Something like that. But decided, you know, I believe in public education, I'm going to send my kid. And if my kid can't succeed with two parents that are at the meetings, sending the emails, then I don't know who can, is basically the, the thrust of the piece.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  And also the child herself said multiple times, I'm having difficulty. I found that to be interesting. People often ask me, what do you think is important about child rearing? And I think what's really important is to listen to your kid. Because your kid will tell you who he, she, or they are. And I'm not saying that the kid's word is the law, but I do think we'd have to check in and figure out what's going on.

• 59:03Sam Fragoso?

  Why do you think it created such an uproar?

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Well, because I think, I mean, my African-American friends who disliked what she did have said they were very uncomfortable with the way African-American parents were portrayed. And also the other people who are in those schools and also the teachers who work there. And I, you know, and it's funny because in one way, it's an essay, in another, a personal essay, in another way, it's journalism.

• 59:30Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  And I also thought it was just amazing that this young person also allowed her life to be open that way. And what will happen when she's 27 or 47? Why is this important? Because in some ways, I wonder about consent. I don't know if all children have consent with respect to their parents. So I can ask, if my mother asked me to do something, I'm 57 years old, do I really think I have full consent? No, because I have all these feelings, which create bias. So I could be a 57-year-old child of somebody and I don't think I actually have full consent.

• 1:00:08Sam Fragoso?

  Has that happened recently?

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  Sure, a million times, like recently. Last night, last night, my mother texted me and said, 10 members of your family are coming to this event. Like the event was clearly sold out. And then normally, if another person had said, I need 10 seats, and then later on it was at, was revised to 15, I think I would have said, maybe we should have thought about this sooner. But it's my mother.

• 1:00:40Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  And it's my family. So of course, I inconvenience several people who work very, very hard to accommodate mom. And you know what? I would do it again. She's 86 years old and one of the lights of my life. Of course I would do it. But is it consent is a fully, you know, is it the same kind of consent for other people? I don't think so.

• 1:01:01Sam Fragoso?

  Can we talk about your mom?

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:01:03Sam Fragoso?

  All right, we'll do that right after one last break. That's coming up next with Min Jin Lee.

• 1:01:11Sam Fragoso?

  I can tell a lot about a skincare product by whether I actually finished the bottle. I try to take good care of my skin and there are a lot of moisturizers and cleaners I've tried once or twice and eventually forgot all about. But there are some products so singular that they become a real part of my routine. That's what drew me to Osea. Osea makes award-winning seaweed-powered skincare and lately I've been enjoying their Dream Bio Retinol Collection, including the Face Serum and Body Serum. Both are designed to help visibly smooth and firm the skin using plant-based ingredients that offer an alternative to traditional retinol. The Body Serum combines Bio Retinol with magnesium and lavender, so it feels especially helpful when I'm winding down at the end of a day.

• 1:01:55Sam Fragoso?

  And I like the idea of treating skincare as something that goes beyond your face. Osea has spent 30 years developing skincare inspired by the sea. And I've tried several of their products now and love how they're rich, yet lightweight, fast-absorbing, and yet somehow deeply moisturizing. It's a part of my routine that I've actually come to look forward to. So if you're interested, go to osiamalibu.com and get 10% off your first order with code TALK EASY. That's Osea, O-S-E-A, malibu.com, code TALK EASY. I think almost everyone has something about their smile they've thought about improving.

• 1:02:36Sam Fragoso?

  But between the cost and countless office visits, it's easy to keep putting it off. That's what first interested me about SmileSet. SmileSet offers a more convenient, affordable way to pursue your smile goals with clear aligners you can use at home. The process is simple, too. It starts with an at-home impression kit, and from there, your case is reviewed by SmileSet's affiliated network of state-licensed dental professionals who approve a personalized treatment plan if you're eligible. Then your aligners are shipped directly to you, and you can monitor your progress remotely through the SmileSet app with professional check-ins available. They even offer nighttime-only aligners for eligible customers. And the price is pretty compelling.

• 1:03:21Sam Fragoso?

  Treatment costs under $1,900, with monthly payments starting at $89 and a 30-day money-back guarantee. For me, the appeal is exploring something that I've considered for a while without immediately committing to a long series of appointments. Plus, listeners of our show get an additional 35% discount when they go to smileset.com/talkeasy. With this discount, you can get the smile of your dreams for under $1,200. Go to smileset.com/talkeasy to get started today. SmileSet, S-M-I-L-E-S-E-T.com/talkeasy.

• 1:04:06Sam Fragoso?

  So coming back, there's another epigraph I want to read from your great new book, American Hogwan. Quote, "Nothing exerts a stronger psychic effect upon the human environment, and especially upon children, than the life which the parents have not lived." And we were talking about your mom before the break, and I presume that quote is the reason you have obliged the 10-ticket request?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Well, so it's Carl Jung, right? And he's the post-Freudian kind of person. And I think that that quote is often rewritten in other ways, but it's basically like the worst thing you can do to your kid is to have are the unlived lives that you have. And I definitely feel with both my parents that they're kind of bigger than life.

• 1:05:01Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean?

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Their personalities. Like, if you meet my parents, and now they're obviously more muted because they're older. My father's 91, my mother's 86. They are so original. My parents are really original people. They're not followers. And I think that as a kid, I was really almost overwhelmed by their charisma, in a way. My father's very charismatic. He's the kind of dude that other men follow. And it's not like from the way he talks, it's just because he just is a leader. So if there's a fishing trip, he would organize it. He doesn't even talk that much, but the dude just kind of go like... And my mother, she's also kind of a real leader, and I was not.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  So I think that maybe in some ways, the unlived lives is that in America, they weren't recognized in a kind of way. And I think that I have tried really hard to be braver because I wanted to be able to do the things that I thought mattered. So I often find myself terrified before doing things like this or doing public events, and I have to tell myself that somehow I have the capacity. I thought that being a writer would be easy. Like, I didn't think it would be difficult to write novels and publish them.

• 1:06:24Sam Fragoso?

  Where did you get that idea?

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Foolishness. Like, it's certainly not from any evidence. And also, I didn't know about the lives of writers. I knew nothing.

• 1:06:34Sam Fragoso?

  It's hard because you're an evidence-based person.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  I am. And if I had evidence, like if someone had said to me, "You know it's going to take longer than you think," or maybe it not ever happened at all, then I would have looked for the evidence. But I didn't have that person in my life. And when I was in college, I met really amazing writers, and they seemed actually very normal. But it didn't occur to me that I could be a writer. But then after doing the difficulties of corporate law and billing my first 300 hours, it occurred to me, oh, it can't be as hard as this. And when I started, I did sit down and write an entire manuscript. And I did somehow manage to find an agent.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  And we did send it out, and nobody wanted it. And I realized, oh, it could look like a novel, sound like a novel, read like a novel, but still not be published. That was a really... Because it wasn't like I wasn't in a slump, I didn't have writer's block. But clearly, I am so grateful that that novel is not published because it was not good.

• 1:07:42Sam Fragoso?

  And the subject? The poor and earnest drivers of Queens? You wanted to write about them how and why?

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  I didn't know that it could be material. So I was operating under this illusion that all books had to be like the great classics. And I didn't think that my life was in any way worthy as a subject matter, or that the people that I knew were subject matters.

• 1:08:13Sam Fragoso?

  Your life and childhood back in Queens.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Or in Korea or anything, just regular people. And I didn't know that fiction writers used what they know as well as what they can study. I kind of thought that ideas kind of came into your brain and fully formed, and you just type. And it wasn't that case for me. I have met many different fiction writers, and each of us work differently, so I don't want to make a generalization. And then I kind of came up with this idea of doing all this research and field work. But it did come principally after I read V.S. Nypal's A House for Mr. Biswas. Because you had this Indian from Trinidad who gets educated in England write about

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  his childhood in Trinidad and about the people that he knew. And I think he drew a great deal about his father in a lot of his fiction. And I thought, oh, I guess I could do that. I could write about people that I know. And then I wrote Free Fifth Millionaires. And that book actually is something that I stand by.

• 1:09:20Sam Fragoso?

  But how did you know?

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Oh, because you know what? I'm not on the margins. I really don't see myself as a minority. Like, you can say that I'm a minority because of the statistics and the data, and that may be true. But I don't walk around thinking that I'm an outsider in that way. If I have existential reasons to know that I'm not like everybody else, that's personal, and that's individual. And I always knew that I'd write about Koreans because, to me, Koreans are really interesting. And they are among the people that I really love and know.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  So to give up that in the hopes of, I don't know, pleasing the majority made no sense to me at all.

• 1:10:11Sam Fragoso?

  When you do start writing these books, in your office, there's a sign that says, "Time is your friend."

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Sam Fragoso?

  Can I ask, what does that mean to you? And also, what were the conditions and context in which you first heard that quote?

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  When I was younger, I was told that I had a very serious illness and that I could get cancer, and I'm very well now. And I've been cured by alpha interferon and also experimental medication. And I've always been aware that my time might be limited compared to my peers, and therefore I decided that I would do something of meaning to me.

• 1:10:53Sam Fragoso?

  But time is your friend. Did that not come from a therapist?

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  It came from a therapist. And I was talking to my shrink. I've had two decades of therapy now. And I was having a really hard time because everything about my career was so...

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Uneventful. Nothing was happening except failure and rejection. And Henry said to me, you know, man, time is your friend. It is your friend. And when he said this to me, I just broke down. I just broke down because I don't think I'd realized how time had been this crushing, painful weight. And a thing that was almost like chasing me because I always thought I was going to die young, so that time is chasing me. Everything had to get done faster. And of course, I chose projects in which I didn't know how to do it any faster. So when he said, time is your friend, I thought, I'm going to believe Henry.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  I'm just going to believe him. And then-

• 1:11:56Sam Fragoso?

  Why did it make you break down?

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Because I don't think I was aware of how afraid I was of dying, of how having my dreams cut short by death. Like, we don't know when you expire. I have had two of my college roommates die before 50, and they were both running their lives like the picture of health. They were not reckless, foolish people. They were healthy. Like, one was actually vegan when she was in college. So I know that, again, and this sort of comes back to this book, one of the questions that I'm asking is why do terrible things happen to good people? Why do terrible things happen to people who are doing their best?

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  And it's good to know if time is your friend.

• 1:12:52Sam Fragoso?

  And has it been?

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  I think so. I think so. I mean, I turned 58 in November, and I like my life. I'm living my life the way I want to. And that's, I mean, how many people can say that? I mean, I know for a fact, many people cannot say that.

• 1:13:12Sam Fragoso?

  I think most people can't.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:13:13Sam Fragoso?

  And even in the context of this book, there's a section I thought maybe you'd want to read from here.

• 1:13:20Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:13:21Sam Fragoso?

  That kind of speaks to what we're getting at.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  I'm gonna look smarter now. Look at that.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Did you know that your mother wanted to be a schoolteacher? DH shook his head. Really? Kenny looked puzzled. How did you not know that? My older sister Sonia was going to be a doctor, and my middle sister Helen was going to be a high school English teacher.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  You wanted to be a doctor? Mido asked her aunt. No one had touched their food. It was as if they were meeting each other for the first time. Yes, I wanted to be a doctor, but I couldn't afford to keep studying. So I got a job as a secretary, then married my husband and had the boys. Your mother wanted to be a teacher, but after she got married, she followed your father to New Jersey. The first job she got was at that department store in Paramus. Sonia remembered how excited Helen had been when she learned how much she'd earn. Her salary would go toward the children's educations, and her hours allowed her to be home when they returned from school.

• 1:14:35Speaker 01

  Did mommy like her job? DH asked, unloosening his necktie a little.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  She was good at her job, but it wasn't what she'd always wanted to do. I remember once, years ago, when you kids were little, right around New Year's Day, she called me crying from Paramus.

• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  Why? Mido asked. A customer had blamed her for something she didn't do.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  And wouldn't apologize after realizing the mistake.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  And that year, your mother didn't get a Christmas bonus, even though she'd promised one. She wanted to go back to school and get a degree to teach, but there was no time or money for that.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  DH furrowed his brow, not knowing this story. He checked Mido's face. She was listening intently. Kenny leaned in. So what did you tell her? That a mother is a child's first teacher. Sonia said.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Thanks, Sam. I knew you were going to do this to me.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  I was kind of hoping, I've come this far and I didn't break down.

• 1:15:49Sam Fragoso?

  You can blame me all you want. I think you did it to you, though.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  I know, I did do it to me. It's funny about fiction, because so much about is memory, not of facts, but of actually a feeling.

• 1:16:02Speaker 01

  And that is another thing that I learned in therapy, is how important it is to remember the feelings. It's kind of like what you had asked much, much earlier about what it was like to be 20 and to go through that experience. I can tell the facts, but to remember the feeling is a very, very different thing.

• 1:16:19Sam Fragoso?

  I think that's what I was trying to get at.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  I know. And I was fighting it valiantly, I thought.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  You wicked, wicked Sam.

• 1:16:29Sam Fragoso?

  I've known you long enough at this point to know when you're, when you're given the opening argument, which includes all the facts. But the feelings of that scene that you just read, they appear to you how?

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Well, I think when you realize your dreams deferred, or the dreams that'll never be realized, because you have a higher purpose of why you do things. Every parent requires sacrificing their time. Like, if you're not a parent who has not done something that you wanted to do because you've got kids, you're probably not a terribly good parent. Doesn't mean that you could avoid everything. And I think parents should be happier and get what they want, but you can't. Like, you can't just take a nap if you feel like it. You can't just go to a party if you feel like it. You're gonna have to do what you signed up for, is to be a parent and to be the adult.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  And I think in that scene in particular, when Helen has this dream of becoming a high school English teacher, and the children didn't know, we realize that, oh, she had this deeply held dream that everybody in her immediate family knew, but even her children didn't know, which means that she held it back from them because she didn't want to make them feel guilty, saying, oh, I did this for you. I think when parents say stuff like, oh, I did this for you, in a way, it's a kind of bullying, and it makes children feel guilty. And I think the level of Helen's excellence as a person who loves her children is that she didn't actually say those things. She wanted to have that, and she thought that it wasn't important, because she really

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  believed in her mission, which is to take care of the kids. So many people don't do what they want to do because they love their kids. Are you going to be the kind of parent who lords it over them? Or are you gonna be the kind of parent who actually says, I signed up for this. Nobody put a gun to my head?

• 1:18:30Sam Fragoso?

  But you're a mother to another Sam. That's not me.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:18:36Sam Fragoso?

  Around the same age. You have done what you wanted, right?

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  No, I didn't do all what I wanted to do. Of course not.

• 1:18:44Sam Fragoso?

  What have you not done?

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  So Pacheco didn't come out until 2017. My son went to college in 2016. It is not an accident that it all was able, that I was able to tour, to leave the house, to say the things I wanted to say, until he had actually gone to college and he was embarking upon his adult life, his young adult life.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  I moved to Japan. I didn't want to move to Japan, but I wanted to have a family that was solid for my husband and for our son. I don't think I would have gone to Japan if I wasn't married and I had a kid. Lots of people have marriages in which one person lives in one country and another. And, gosh, like, the list goes on, but it almost seems tedious to enumerate them because it sounds very ungrateful.

• 1:19:36Sam Fragoso?

  So when you read that, that passage, which you haven't read out loud before?

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  Ever. Thanks a lot, Sam.

• 1:19:41Sam Fragoso?

  You're welcome. Again, you wrote it. Does that bring you back to a specific memory growing up in Queens?

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  Well, my parents were humiliated so regularly in doing their work. It was very clear to me as a young person that the world didn't respect them. And it's hard as a kid to watch your parents be dismissed and to be disrespected. And I have to say this, and I think that almost every poor person will agree with me, when you grow up in a poor community, what really matters is a respect. Like, it's a kind of currency that you almost overvalue because you don't have other things. So that's the reason why, when you think about gang violence, it can be started just because someone didn't respect you. And even now, as somebody who's mature and has had a lot of good things happen to them,

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  like, there's a part of me that just gets bonkers when I feel disrespected. I just kind of think, oh, you've crossed a lot. It's worse than even, like, being cheated of money or something, which other people would probably think is very important.

• 1:20:50Sam Fragoso?

  When was the last time Min Jin Lee was disrespected?

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Well, I think that I am routinely disrespected as an Asian American and as an Asian person. I think that in America, Asians and Asian Americans are not part of the cultural conversation so rarely, and the numbers of us who are out there are so few, especially for our ideas in which we speak. So you can say, oh, this person's a famous actor or something like that, but you don't actually hear them talk. And that means that we don't get to have a context for our experiences. So if a person doesn't know who I am, and I'm not a celebrity, I'm not known for visually, then it's very easy to just kind of dismiss me.

• 1:21:36Speaker 01

  So one of the interesting things is, I could be at a hotel or an airport in a car, and people routinely say crazy things to me, and I just kind of go-

• 1:21:46Sam Fragoso?

  Like what?

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  A lot of people don't think I speak English. That's very common. And whenever I go into public spaces, I always make an effort in the way I dress. Because if I look less well off or polished, I am treated in a very different way. I've actually tested this a lot. And I kind of think, wow, it must be exhausting. So people have said things like, well, why do Asian Americans care about status items in terms of luxury goods? And I tell them, well, it's because if you wear those things, those status markers, because of global commercialism, it explains to another person that this person might have money and therefore, if you disrespect them, there'll be consequences.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  And I find that to be really sad, because materialism is obviously a painful, terrible thing for most people. However, I do understand when a young person who has no money buys expensive sneakers. I get it. And I think that to get angry at a person who does that is almost, you're decontextualizing materialism.

• 1:22:55Sam Fragoso?

  My last question. This year, you gave the commencement speech at Yale University.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:23:03Sam Fragoso?

  The place where plenty of disrespect was dulled down. Where you probably felt it maybe most acutely in the experiences we talked about earlier, to be back there this summer and to give the commencement speech. You said to the young people.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  Often I'm asked, what advice do I have for young people? And I share this precept, which has carried me through every difficult question. Choose the important over the urgent. Choose the important over the urgent.

• 1:23:46Sam Fragoso?

  What does that mean to you?

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Shit's gonna happen. People are going to disrespect you. People are going to be hateful. Life will not be fair. There'll be things out of your control. And when it happens, you look at the thing, not lie about it, not deny that it's existence, but you choose the important over the urgent. My character Helen chooses her children over her dreams. My character Helen chooses to remember what really matters over her humiliation over a customer or an unfair bonus promise. And I think that we're supposed to try to choose the important over the urgent. It's not easy, right? It's not easy, because sometimes we feel angry, irritated, disrespected.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  But you don't have to respond to that first.

• 1:24:38Sam Fragoso?

  But to be back at Yale, in some ways, did it help you close the loop of whatever that, whatever that was back then?

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it did, because I did wait 36 years, or 32 years, or whatever it was, until those things happened. And I think I have tried to choose the important over the urgent. But in that moment, I did find healing in that. And I also didn't expect to find healing in it. I didn't know that was gonna happen. I didn't know that I would get this opportunity to address 19,000 people. Like, I didn't ask for that. Apparently, class day is, the class day is the commencement speech at Yale. And apparently, it was something, I was on some sort of shortlist for several years.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  And that was put together by students as well as faculty members. And I didn't know that people had even noticed me. So, and I don't think they even anticipated that I would speak about what I did. Had they asked me for a copy of the commencement address before, I don't know if they would have liked it. But I felt very strongly that what young people need right now is an honest appraisal of how to operate in the future. How do you interpret your life? And I thought, okay, well, I'm gonna take myself down and open myself possibly for someone telling me I'm a PC terrorist again. Because they could have taken at that point of view. And I thought, you know what? I'm gonna say this, because it's what happened. I can prove it.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  All the evidence was there. And also, I'm gonna tell the young people to have a kind of set of bifocals, to see what's in front of you, but ultimately, to look far ahead and go, is this who I am? Is this what I want? Because I think that's what young people really need, a sense of perspective.

• 1:26:31Sam Fragoso?

  That young person who graduated Yale in 1990, who would be the person receiving the commencement speech, they didn't know that they were going to write. They didn't know that they were going to write, quote unquote, "social novels."

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  No, they thought they were going to law school. And also, I had walked away from this idea of being an idealistic person. I was like, you know, I should be more pragmatic. Being idealistic, like, what did it get me? Death threats. So I'll go to law school. And then, I didn't say I was gonna become a public defender. I said, I'm gonna be a corporate lawyer. So clearly, I had pivoted.

• 1:27:03Sam Fragoso?

  You tried.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  I tried. And you know what? It didn't work for me. I couldn't try it, even if I tried. I couldn't do it. I couldn't pull it off. And it was so hard to justify my life, because it so violated who I was. So I didn't know it was important.

• 1:27:18Sam Fragoso?

  When you hear other writers describe the process as a form of self-expression.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:24Sam Fragoso?

  You feel what?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  I didn't feel that. I don't, I still don't think about the self that much. I think if it was really just about me, I don't know if novels are the best way to do this. As a matter of fact, I try to write my novels in a way that you don't think about me.

• 1:27:45Sam Fragoso?

  So if that doesn't matter, that's not why you write? Why do you?

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Oh, because I think there are very serious things that I want to address in society. And if, if I could convince you to spend 16 to 20 hours with me, by reading a novel or listening to it, I want you to see the 10 years of work that I did with respect to the subject. And this is my answer. This is my proposal. And also, I'm trying to convince you to really transform yourself, because I'm that grandiose. It has to be. Like, how else could you not be grandiose when you're asking somebody, hang out with me for 20 hours?

• 1:28:29Sam Fragoso?

  It's a big lift.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  It's a big lift. And also, it's not because I want to make money, because I could make more money being a lawyer. My friends who are lawyers are very wealthy.

• 1:28:40Sam Fragoso?

  And so with this book, you want to communicate what?

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  I want to share the importance of transformation that can happen with education. I also want to talk about how it's not enough to love your child or just your family. We have to love other people's children. And if you think about that as a life decision of not just loving your own biological children, or the children in your clan, or the children in your immediate community, but of children in general, then the way you vote, the way you live, the way you use resources will completely change.

• 1:29:18Sam Fragoso?

  Every book begins with a thesis statement. You have a fourth book coming.

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:29:23Sam Fragoso?

  Last time we spoke, it was a trilogy. Now?

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  It's a quartet. Or a tetralogy, somebody said.

• 1:29:29Sam Fragoso?

  You keep, you keep changing it on me.

• 1:29:30Speaker 01

  I know, I know. It's because my health is really good, Sam.

• 1:29:32Sam Fragoso?

  That's good. The book is called Marshall Plan. And I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't ask you. What's the opening line?

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  I don't actually have that yet, because I haven't finished my research. But I do know that it is a novel about the idea of remittances and reconstruction of a place you love that's been devastated. Either locally, nationally, globally, or personally.

• 1:30:00Sam Fragoso?

  So when you do have it, you'll give me a call?

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  I'll call you right away. It'd be an honor to call you. Sam, I got it. I got it. I got the thing.

• 1:30:11Sam Fragoso?

  Min Jin Lee, thank you very much for the time.

• 1:30:13Speaker 01

  Sam, thank you.

• 1:30:35Sam Fragoso?

  Thank you for watching Talk Easy. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also leave us a review on Apple, drop us a comment on Spotify, or follow us across social media at Talk Easy Pod. If you haven't subscribed to the show, be sure to do so on Apple or Spotify. That way, you can check out new episodes as they drop. Our producer is Caroline Reebok. This episode was edited by Alex Dishal. It was mixed by Andrew Vastola. Photographs are by email, Ravello. Social media by Lucy McGraw. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Higher Ground Media, and I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening and watching Talk Easy, and I'll see you back here next Sunday.

• 1:31:18Sam Fragoso?

  Until then, stay safe, and so long.

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  Your body is always changing, and those changes can feel like a lot to navigate alone. Weight that won't budge, skin that starts to show signs of change, hair loss, mood swings. Midi Health gets it, because Midi was built for exactly this, by women, for women. Their clinicians specialize in the hormonal shifts that occur throughout your life. So you're not getting generic care, you're getting expertise for exactly where you are. Midi is the trusted virtual care clinic for women's health, with specialists trained to treat everything, from weight changes to skincare, sleep, mood, and hormonal health. They listen, they dig into root causes, and they build you a personalized care plan with

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  treatments that fit your needs. You shouldn't have to keep guessing, and with Midi, you won't. Midi visits are available in every state and covered by most insurance plans, so expert care that actually sees you is more accessible than you think. Book your first virtual visit today at joinmidi.com. That's join M-I-D-I dot com.

• 1:32:36Speaker 03

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

• 1:32:44Speaker 04

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 1:32:47Speaker 03

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 1:32:50Speaker 04

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 1:32:52Speaker 03

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:32:56Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 1:32:58Speaker 03

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast, What It's Like to Be.