Ep. 879: Arizona Jaguars, CWD Elk, and a New One-Buck Limit for Michigan Hunters

Steven Rinella https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella/?hl=en and the MeatEater crew discuss: Steve's new baby mouse; Corner Crossing updates; the endangered jaguar hanging out in Arizona; live sonar for billfish and the end of integrity in fishing; Louisiana's National Forest land transfer; the first ever detection of CWD in Wyoming's largest elk herd; South Dakota sets an unprecedented elk hunting management plan; Michigan's major buck hunting rule changes; and more. Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:13Speaker 03

  What's that?

• 1:14Speaker 04

  My fresh detector.

• 1:15Speaker 03

  Uh, your what?

• 1:17Speaker 04

  There it is.

• 1:18Speaker 03

  What is it detecting?

• 1:19Speaker 04

  Fresh produce, fresh meat.

• 1:22Speaker 03

  Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 1:27Speaker 04

  Apparently, we celebrate.

• 1:29Speaker 03

  At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices when your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 1:42Steven Rinella?

  Welcome to the news show. Cal's back. And on this episode, we need you to help us solve a mystery. Cal, who's back, talks corner crossing updates. Another Jaguar is hanging in Arizona, or as Spencer Newhart says, jagwire. Michigan made some major buck hunting rule changes, and Yannis is here to tell you all about it. Seth reports on the end of the integrity of fishing, but that's probably not how he looks at it. My wife took a mouse home, which still surprises me. South Dakota sets an unprecedented elk hunting management plan and more. But first, our news. Here's the biggest thing.

• 2:23Steven Rinella?

  Periodically on the new show, we're gonna start doing, this is quick, but periodically on the new show, we're gonna start doing these little, we need these, we need audience help. We are doing, finally, we are in the mid, we're in the process of working on an extended series about the mystery of who killed the world record whitetail buck. Was it Milo Hanson, who recently passed away, or was it Mitch Rompola? And the main thing is, is the Rompola buck legit? We're doing a whole series on it. Jordan Sillers, who you know and love from Blood Trails, is running this project with my assistance. We're cranking

• 3:06Steven Rinella?

  on it. First, here's the first call for help that we need. If you, if, if you listener, if you, someone in your network, whatever, there's two people we're looking for right now. If you know about a Texas man who in the late 1990s was negotiating the purchase of the Rompola buck, and backed out of that purchase, can you send us a note?

• 3:46Steven Rinella?

  Again, a Texas man who was negotiating the purchase of the Rompola buck in the late 1990s and ultimately decided to back out of that purchase, please reach out to us. How are people supposed to reach out? Where should they, where should they send the note? What's the email address? The Meat Eater Podcast. [email protected]. [email protected]. Put Rompola, R-O-M-P-O-L-A in the subject line. Second thing, if you or anyone you know worked for an outfit called the Arkansas County Seed Company.

• 4:30Steven Rinella?

  In the late 1990s or early 2000s, please reach out to us. Again, anyone who worked at, familiar with, knows someone who worked at a place called the Arkansas County Seed Company. In the late 1990s or early 2000s, please reach out to us.

• 4:51Speaker 06

  Did you ever watch Unsolved Mysteries, Steve?

• 4:53Steven Rinella?

  No, I know about it. My agent used to produce segments. He used to produce the reenactments.

• 4:57Speaker 06

  Hosted by Robert Stack. There'd always be a great moment sometimes, like one in five episodes, at the end of the, end of the episode, they'd have an update. And you get a little rush watching that because they've just like potentially cracked the case. That's how this feels, that you're, you're like casting a wide net and we're gonna have an update come next episode.

• 5:15Steven Rinella?

  I hope so. I hope so. Uh, yeah, my agent, Mark Gerald, my literary agent, he's been my agent for over 20 years. He, he used to, did you say America's Most Wanted?

• 5:26Speaker 06

  No, uh, Unsolved Mysteries.

• 5:28Steven Rinella?

  Sorry. He used to produce the reenactments for America's Most Wanted, like back a million years ago. Weirdest job in the world.

• 5:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:34Steven Rinella?

  Like when it gets all like trippy, you know, and there's like a shooting in a hotel or something. That was his job.

• 5:39Speaker 06

  Be fun.

• 5:40Steven Rinella?

  Uh, oh, here, here's the deal.

• 5:41Speaker 07

  Doesn't sound that weird to me. Sounds like it'd be a fun little thing.

• 5:44Steven Rinella?

  No, yeah, like not weird, but like, yeah, fun. Yeah, he liked it.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  Look at this.

• 5:47Speaker 07

  One of those things they don't tell you about in high school at career day.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Look at this.

• 5:51Speaker 07

  It's like not a job that comes up.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  You can pull up those pictures I sent you?

• 5:54Speaker 07

  Yeah. Steve, get closer to the mic.

• 5:58Steven Rinella?

  My wife.

• 5:58Speaker 06

  Oh my God.

• 5:59Steven Rinella?

  Look at this. My wife was hiking the M Hill in town. And she sees laying, look at this. She sees, listen to him. Laying in the trail, laying in the middle of the trail on a rock. A brand new born mouse that doesn't even have his eyes open yet. Look at that picture.

• 6:22Speaker 06

  Huh.

• 6:23Steven Rinella?

  Its eyes weren't even open.

• 6:25Speaker 07

  Aren't they born? With no hair.

• 6:26Steven Rinella?

  I thought they're born hairless. Well, he's not brand new there, but like, what the hell is he doing out in the middle of the trail? I don't know. Just laying there, eyes closed.

• 6:34Speaker 07

  Do you know what kind of mouse it is?

• 6:35Steven Rinella?

  Jimmy thinks that he thinks it's a deer mouse or something. Look, listen to him.

• 6:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, listen.

• 6:41Steven Rinella?

  So its eyes weren't even open yet. And I'm thinking, there's no way they're gonna keep that thing alive. But my boy starts, where's that little deal? He starts feeding it, even though its eyes are closed, he's feeding it with this. Here, I can open it up for me. He's feeding it. Ranch dress. Puppy, puppy milk replacement.

• 7:04Steven Rinella?

  It's crawling up Steve's arm. Yeah.

• 7:07Speaker 07

  Were you guys all like, thank God, we don't live on a cruise ship?

• 7:10Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Well, that's one of the things, that's one of the issues that came up is all that antivirus shit. So I had to keep telling my wife, like, we're, he's probably gonna catch something from us. We're not gonna catch something from him. And then, uh, then our dog got sick. And then she thought the mouse was killing the dog. But that doesn't seem to be it. What's the long-term plan with this? I don't know. Mouse. Watch it, see if he's hungry right now.

• 7:33Speaker 07

  Musky bait.

• 7:34Steven Rinella?

  He's starving.

• 7:35Speaker 07

  Oh, look at that. He knows, he knows what's up.

• 7:38Steven Rinella?

  Oh dude. It's great. This little mouse.

• 7:42Speaker 07

  Look at him squeaking. It sounds like the A-frame at 2am.

• 7:47Steven Rinella?

  You gotta watch this. This is the weird, I'm hoping I can trigger the weirdest part of this. Get a good load in there. Okay, watch. This is the weirdest part.

• 7:53Speaker 07

  This gets weirder?

• 7:54Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, he doesn't know how to swallow real good. Watch. So he has to do this little thing where you think he's having a seizure. Watch this.

• 8:02Steven Rinella?

  He might be getting too old for it now.

• 8:03Speaker 07

  No, I see, I see it, I see it coming. You gotta flatten your hand out.

• 8:07Steven Rinella?

  Flat, it lasts 10 seconds when he has a seizure.

• 8:16Speaker 07

  Look at him, he's like, please, no more.

• 8:20Steven Rinella?

  No, he's not doing it.

• 8:22Steven Rinella?

  Anyway, we can move on. But the surprising part about this is, you guys know Katie?

• 8:27Speaker 07

  That's pretty cute.

• 8:28Steven Rinella?

  Katie is the last woman on the planet that's gonna bring a mouse home.

• 8:33Speaker 07

  Obviously not.

• 8:34Steven Rinella?

  Well, I know, but you would think.

• 8:35Speaker 07

  You would think.

• 8:36Steven Rinella?

  It's not like she's gonna step on it, but she's gonna, she's not gonna like squish it, but she's not gonna bring it home.

• 8:44Steven Rinella?

  All I'm gonna do is seizure.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Seems to me that she's more frequently trying to decide how to get weird stuff out of the house.

• 8:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, this is payback.

• 8:54Steven Rinella?

  See, when he gets mad, he's when he's done, he's done. He makes all kinds of noise.

• 8:59Speaker 07

  What's he dragging around on his belly there? Like a dried dried up?

• 9:06Steven Rinella?

  He just took a growler.

• 9:09Steven Rinella?

  Anyhow. I'm gonna go wash up because I don't want the Honda virus and then you guys can keep talking about the news.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 9:17Speaker 07

  Now.

• 9:18Steven Rinella?

  That's interesting though, isn't it?

• 9:19Speaker 07

  You guys haven't come up with a plan for that mouse's future yet?

• 9:23Steven Rinella?

  Well, I mean, how long they live? We're not gonna get rid of them.

• 9:26Speaker 07

  That's what I was asking.

• 9:30Steven Rinella?

  That they let it go out in the yard and I don't, the kids aren't interested in that. Yeah. They were like, yeah, no.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Is there a name yet?

• 9:38Steven Rinella?

  It's Meble. Okay. Like Yanni's daughter, but with a E.

• 9:45Steven Rinella?

  Not named after Yanni's daughter, but.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Meble the mouse.

• 9:50Speaker 07

  Let's Google search how long a. Randall, you should go into your.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  Captivity. I don't know. I just don't think people are interested in my chickens.

• 9:58Speaker 07

  I am. Yeah, I think we, I think. Well, give us the quick version while Steve's. Steve's washing up.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  I just, I feel like, yeah, okay. Well, I just know.

• 10:07Speaker 07

  Three years for a pet mouse.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  The, uh, we lost another chicken to birds of prey. Got home from the great state of Florida. Uh, on Monday and I thought, man, there's a lot of big chickens there that the chickens have all grown and turned dark. Instead it was 12 vultures. They were killing or they were consuming one of our chickens.

• 10:31Speaker 07

  When you pulled up after being gone?

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 07

  12 vultures were there.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then they came back. I chased them off and then they came back about an hour later. So I've been looking into.

• 10:40Speaker 07

  So are they like?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:42Speaker 07

  Circle in your house.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, they've been back three times now since then.

• 10:46Speaker 07

  Are you gonna apply for a US fishing wildlife permit to destroy vultures?

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Did you? Oh, did you read ahead? No, you don't even have that in front of you. I've looked into it.

• 10:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  I've looked into it. Depredation, uh, depredation permits. Cause I don't really know what else to do.

• 11:02Speaker 07

  Sure. Do you have a netting over the top of your chickens?

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Well, now we have, we have fishing lines strung up. We've got reflective stuff strung up. Uh, we're doing all we can.

• 11:14Speaker 07

  Non-lethal measures. So you can actually get a permit?

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're covered under the migratory birds.

• 11:21Speaker 07

  If it's hitting your, uh, hitting your livestock. Next episode of roast, Yanni.

• 11:25Steven Rinella?

  Did you guys keep the show going?

• 11:26Speaker 02

  We did, yeah, poorly, poorly. We just got through the chicken segment. It went about as you'd expect. Yeah, I didn't come into it with the right attitude, though.

• 11:35Speaker 06

  He didn't. He didn't bring any energy to it.

• 11:37Steven Rinella?

  I didn't sell it. I would have brought a dead chicken down here and like laying it out and had a visual aid.

• 11:40Speaker 07

  The fun thing to me is, and it's a delicate conversation around the Williams Ranch, Williams Chicken Ranch is that they're not at the point of chicken farming yet to where a dead chicken is, means absolutely nothing.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Sweep it up.

• 11:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm there.

• 11:59Speaker 07

  You'll get there.

• 12:03Steven Rinella?

  Like, I'll watch later, but like, how, like, on a one to 10, like, is he just maybe not cut out for that kind of segment?

• 12:07Speaker 02

  No, I just think the chicken, I just think the audience, the chicken, the chicken stuff, I just think they're, they're tired of it. I think they got the, the point.

• 12:15Speaker 06

  The buzzards, not the chicken.

• 12:17Steven Rinella?

  I wish we'd have a vote, like a vote where people vote on the mouse segment or the chicken segment was better.

• 12:22Speaker 07

  I still have that, I still have that interest meter up in my office, Steve, that that guy made for me.

• 12:27Steven Rinella?

  The mouse one was good.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Bring that down sometime, Phil.

• 12:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, we could do it next week. I think people need to vote on what they would think of Randall if he were to get a US Fish and Wildlife Depredation Permit, Nuisance Permit and remove 12 vultures.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  That's to save her.

• 12:46Speaker 07

  No one's gonna care about 12 vultures. That's not bad optics. Now, if he was gonna whack some bald eagles.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  And let me be clear, I'm not, this is not a plan I'm making. I've only done the preliminary research.

• 12:57Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  It's three now, three chickens now by the buzzards.

• 13:01Speaker 06

  If I came upon that scene, I wouldn't automatically assume that the vultures killed the chickens. I don't know, it wasn't like a stray cat.

• 13:07Speaker 07

  Seems like they're cleaning up.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, that's, that's my initial assessment. There's been some, uh, there's been some very hasty internet research that says they, they do do that.

• 13:19Steven Rinella?

  Hey, when you're on there, when you're on the internet there, can you find out what kind of mouse that is?

• 13:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:24Steven Rinella?

  Thank you.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  I mean, I actually have a better, I have a better story than the chicken vultures. It's the time Sydney called me to say there's a mouse in the house. And I said, I thought I killed them all. And then I go back and there's a little. Bald baby mouse.

• 13:35Steven Rinella?

  Did you raise it up?

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 13:38Steven Rinella?

  Feathered chickens?

• 13:39Speaker 02

  But I wondered how it got, I wondered how it got on the floor of the closet because it couldn't walk. And so then I started going through all the stuff above it in the closet and I realized there's a travel pillow. Up on the top floor, up on the top shelf of the closet that had been chewed up and hollowed out. And then I started going through all the pockets of the shirts and coats below it. Found 10 of those suckers.

• 14:00Steven Rinella?

  I didn't know you lived in filth and squalor.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Was this, despite Sydney's best efforts, yeah, this was in Missoula. So then I had 10, 10 little baby, I, I think my understanding is that I'd probably trapped their parents the day before. And then they went out in search of a guardian like Steve's family.

• 14:19Steven Rinella?

  That could have been why he's in that trail.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Anyhow.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  God, my stories are.

• 14:24Steven Rinella?

  Did they bomb?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  You want to start out, Phil?

• 14:26Steven Rinella?

  So.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Now we're out of time.

• 14:28Steven Rinella?

  All right. Uh, my, uh, so coming up here to Monday, there's, there's no interview show, there's no interview episode dropping on Monday on the Meat Eater Podcast feed. Um, which is Memorial Day. We had a, we had a, we had an awesome guest booked. They had a health thing, they're rebooked, don't worry, they're fine. But there's no episode on Monday.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  It's gonna be good. Can we give like a little teaser about what's gonna be?

• 14:52Steven Rinella?

  A, a, a person that studies the olfactory capabilities of animals and humans. And one thing we're gonna talk about is this idea that people, and I say it too, that humans have a bad sense of smell. Um, one of the things is that's not true. There's some things we can smell. Uh, there's some things we can smell very acutely, but we just don't put any value on them anymore. Sulfur. Like if you take a grizzly bear on rotten meat. And whatever you get in like parts per whatever, a human on sulfur is unbelievable. We just don't respect it. Anyways, and, and a lot of her research is around squirrels.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 15:35Steven Rinella?

  Olfactory capabilities of squirrels. Uh, she's fine. She's gonna, she's gonna be good for her. She's already rescheduled.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Could she potentially speak to the great, uh?

• 15:46Speaker 07

  Dry land tracking versus snow tracking.

• 15:49Steven Rinella?

  You know what, why don't you come down, you can sit in too. Yanni's sitting in because Yanni's gonna ask you.

• 15:54Speaker 07

  I've already sent her 20 questions like that and similar, so.

• 15:58Steven Rinella?

  Anyways, on Monday, what will happen instead on Monday is, is um, we're gonna fill that slot with something we were already doing anyways, which is Yanni's 12 and 26 companion podcast episode, answering your questions about his Manitoba caribou hunt. What could people expect seeing that video, Yanni?

• 16:18Speaker 07

  Uh, they can expect to see a grand adventure to the north country of Manitoba where uh, Samong Yang and I went and uh, did another hunt with our buddy now Craig McCarthy of North Mountain Adventures, who I bear hunted with uh, the previous spring. And um, he was uh, looking into possibly expanding his operation into the north country for some caribou. And he kinda needed a group to go and uh, and just do a trial run. And uh, I was like, oh, that could be us. That sounds like a good time. I like going on hunts like that where it's like, it's not like he's been there for 10 years and you know exactly what you're gonna expect. So yeah. Samong and I went and uh, Max Barta and Eli Harris filmed it and um, we had a great time. You know what we did?

• 17:02Speaker 07

  We did the thing that you often don't like. We brought two weapons.

• 17:05Steven Rinella?

  I was already planning on talking about how I'd disapprove of that.

• 17:09Speaker 07

  Okay, but I think you would approve.

• 17:11Steven Rinella?

  You make your bed and lie in it. That's what I say.

• 17:15Speaker 07

  But I think you would approve because we didn't do the thing where you go up there and you're like, I'm gonna hunt with my bow. And then when I can't get it on with my bow, I'm gonna pick up my rifle and shoot one. We instead went out first with rifles. And said, we're gonna knock down a couple of, a couple of boo, get our meat hanging, then we're gonna go have some fun bow hunting.

• 17:37Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 17:38Speaker 07

  That makes no difference?

• 17:38Steven Rinella?

  Doesn't matter, I think.

• 17:40Speaker 07

  But that doesn't, that doesn't change your opinion?

• 17:43Steven Rinella?

  It's not like a deal. It's not like a, well, it's not like I gotta make a law about it. It just always strikes me as odd. It always strikes me as odd. Always, yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 07

  If you can kill two animals.

• 17:55Steven Rinella?

  Who cares what I think?

• 17:55Speaker 07

  Makes sense.

• 17:56Steven Rinella?

  Who cares what I think about it? It just always strikes me as odd.

• 17:59Speaker 07

  I just thought that this would have changed it because I felt like your complaint in the past was that people act like they're gonna be serious about bow hunting. And then they give up and they switch to the rifle.

• 18:10Steven Rinella?

  I just don't do like.

• 18:13Steven Rinella?

  Years ago, remember you were there, remember we had on, uh, remember we had on, uh, we interviewed Bo Jackson?

• 18:19Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 18:20Steven Rinella?

  Bo Jackson is very interested in, he's very interested like getting a deer with a pistol, getting a deer with, uh, this, getting a deer with that, you know what I mean? Like very interested in weapon of choice.

• 18:36Speaker 07

  I'm tracking.

• 18:36Steven Rinella?

  He's very into method of tape. Like i- i- if I go spearfishing, I don't be like, well, I'm gonna bring a homemade one. I'm gonna bring a this one, I'm gonna bring a that one. You know what I mean? I just like bring the, the appropriate spear gun.

• 18:50Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 18:51Steven Rinella?

  I'm just not like, I'm not like a mixing up method of tape guy.

• 18:54Speaker 07

  Instead of using rod and reel out of a bow, which you could just as probably well catch all those fish that you're shooting.

• 19:01Steven Rinella?

  No, you can't. Ask Seth. Seth will tell you. They're always hitting on steel. Seth will tell you. Seth?

• 19:12Steven Rinella?

  I don't like getting into it.

• 19:13Speaker 07

  Go ahead, go ahead. You're doing a whole show to prove or disprove this theory, actually.

• 19:17Steven Rinella?

  Soon we are, well, yeah. You could pull up to an oil rig and you can drop all the baits and throw all the jigs and do everything you want and nothing, right? You think that there's nothing there, you dive underwater and it's carpeted in fish.

• 19:31Speaker 07

  That's true, Seth.

• 19:32Steven Rinella?

  Car- oh.

• 19:33Speaker 07

  That's true.

• 19:33Steven Rinella?

  Carpeted in fish.

• 19:35Speaker 07

  Even with some live bait. I don't know if we tried live bait.

• 19:38Steven Rinella?

  Yes, yes.

• 19:39Speaker 07

  Did we?

• 19:40Steven Rinella?

  Carpeted in fish.

• 19:41Speaker 07

  Let's get back to the bow.

• 19:42Steven Rinella?

  I wanna keep going on the news show though. Anyways, it doesn't matter, I think. But tell people about the video real quick, cause we got them cows.

• 19:48Speaker 07

  Yeah, so Samong and I went hunting with Craig and, uh, had a lot of luck. Samong did a, uh, I can't believe we've never done this in all the years of filming Meat Eater. He did a, uh, uh, he did tripe out of a caribou stomach, which is way cool.

• 20:02Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 20:03Speaker 07

  Um, something we had never covered off on and, uh.

• 20:06Steven Rinella?

  Did he call it anything weird?

• 20:08Speaker 07

  Nope, called it mung stew.

• 20:10Steven Rinella?

  Oh, Ya Yang was making me some of that and he called it poop soup. I'm like, you gotta rebrand.

• 20:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 20:16Steven Rinella?

  You gotta rebrand poop soup, dude.

• 20:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. He did say though, that in tougher times, they would eat the stomach contents with the, you know, with the soup, as opposed to cleaning it all off and just eating the tripe.

• 20:32Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 20:32Speaker 07

  But we weren't in a position where we needed to do that. But surprisingly, actually it wasn't surprising, I've eaten enough tripe to know that it's really, doesn't even have a flavor, it's more of just the texture.

• 20:43Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 07

  Um, and it's like a filler, like I would imagine there's probably not that many, I don't know, there's probably some calories in the stomach.

• 20:50Steven Rinella?

  I don't like, I don't like lung, brain, and I don't like stomach. Oh man, go get a tripe taco where it's fried crispy and then it's gooey on the inside. Oh my god. Maybe, lung, brain, and lung, brain and gut. Yeah. Not my scene. No.

• 21:05Speaker 07

  Well, it was a great adventure, you can see it now on the meat eater's YouTube channel. Uh, it's.

• 21:11Steven Rinella?

  Like Yanni Hunt's caribous?

• 21:13Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 21:13Steven Rinella?

  It's called Boo Buddies. Yanni catches, Yanni catches a caribou.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Yanis's first archery caribou.

• 21:20Speaker 07

  There you go.

• 21:21Steven Rinella?

  Oh, there you go.

• 21:22Speaker 07

  You know how we're always trying different thumbnails with sometimes different titles? So I don't actually know if there was a title, but if you should search Yanis Meat Eater Caribou, I'm sure you'll.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  If you search Yanis apostrophe first archery caribou.

• 21:36Speaker 07

  You'll definitely get to it.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Meat Eaters 12 and 26.

• 21:39Steven Rinella?

  You're, yeah, you'll, you'll be right there.

• 21:41Speaker 07

  But yeah, if you have any questions after you watch the episode that you'd like me to answer, put them in the comments and Corinne and Corey and myself are gonna go through there and curate the best questions and then I'm gonna answer them on the podcast that's gonna come out on Memorial Day.

• 21:57Steven Rinella?

  Hot diggity.

• 21:59Speaker 03

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• 22:29Speaker 06

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• 23:08Speaker 03

  Hello? Hey, it's me, your wallet. Oh, hey. I was just wondering if we could maybe take it easy this week? Absolutely. Really? Yep, I'm shopping at Food Lion. Wait, you mean low prices? And MVP savings. Oh, you do care. Obviously. Okay, I feel better. Good, now let's go get some snacks. At Food Lion, low prices and MVP savings make it easier to shop for what you need without spending more than you have to. When your wallet needs a little TLC,

• 23:40Steven Rinella?

  head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com. All right, Kel, take it away. Oh, corner cross. Where do you want me to start on this thing? Just like what's happening right now? Let's not go back to the beginning. Let's not go back to like Adam and Eve. Yep. But, um,

• 23:59Steven Rinella?

  uh, let's take it from how it was good law. Where was it declared? Corner crossing? Let's not do the whole checkerboard explanation. Yep. Good law, federal court, Supreme Court, and what's next? Yeah.

• 24:20Steven Rinella?

  Main thing is, is folks who

• 24:22Speaker 06

  Been tracking this Wyoming since and sits in the 10th Circuit. Wyoming, uh, over the course of three years went through. A corner crossing case that that made it up.

• 24:37Speaker 06

  Uh, through the Court of Appeals and then was reviewed by the Supreme Court of the United States and ultimately determined that. Uh, the lower court's rulings were were good. And that's where the 10th Circuit sits. Meat eater was a big part of that because we did a bunch of fundraising. Through our land access initiative for uh, that corner crossing case raised support for. For the funds for that that legal fight.

• 25:05Speaker 06

  Montana since sits in the ninth circuit.

• 25:11Speaker 06

  Ever since.

• 25:12Steven Rinella?

  Can you refresh me a little bit like, uh, 10th is New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming?

• 25:18Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 25:19Steven Rinella?

  And ninth is must be us Idaho, Washington. Is that how it goes?

• 25:24Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 25:25Steven Rinella?

  Someone grab that William.

• 25:26Speaker 06

  Colorado, Kansas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Utah, Wyoming.

• 25:30Steven Rinella?

  Is what?

• 25:31Speaker 06

  That would be 10th.

• 25:33Steven Rinella?

  Okay, hit me with ninth.

• 25:35Speaker 06

  Randall's on it.

• 25:36Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 25:41Steven Rinella?

  Sounds like a really easy.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  He's never gonna stumble.

• 25:44Steven Rinella?

  Which.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Montana, Idaho, Washington, Oregon, California, Nevada, and Arizona.

• 25:51Steven Rinella?

  Oh, some big heavy hitters in there.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  And Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands.

• 25:57Speaker 06

  Yep. Yep. And we get a lot of mail from Guam.

• 26:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 06

  So.

• 26:06Steven Rinella?

  Oh, it's good to have Cal back.

• 26:07Speaker 06

  We, we have. There through our Armed Forces Initiative, we actually have a bunch of BHAers on Guam.

• 26:14Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 26:15Speaker 06

  They did. They just kind of live in one particular spot. Uh, and have access to a lot of fun stuff. Anyway, um, within the Ninth Circuit, so that Tenth Circuit case would be, uh, the case that gets referenced. If there was a federal case in the Ninth Circuit.

• 26:32Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 26:32Speaker 06

  Um, it is persuasive. But it is not technically, uh, the law in the Ninth.

• 26:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 26:42Speaker 06

  But it would be that thing where it'd be like, boy, it went all the way through here.

• 26:45Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. So you know when a corner crossing was going through the Tenth?

• 26:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:50Steven Rinella?

  And then the thing people would reference was the unlawful enclosures act.

• 26:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:55Steven Rinella?

  If it went through the Ninth, you would sort of throw that out in reference.

• 27:01Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 27:01Steven Rinella?

  You would start referencing the latest iteration, which was the corner crossing question.

• 27:06Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 27:06Steven Rinella?

  So people would be like, well, the precedent or whatever, or the guideline is really fresh from Tenth.

• 27:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 27:14Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 27:15Speaker 06

  Yep. And, and the thing to remember too, there's, there's state and federal law unlawful enclosures act is federal.

• 27:21Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 27:22Speaker 06

  Um, it was a law signed, you know, passed through Congress, signed by the president. Um, I think four years before Montana ever became a state.

• 27:32Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 27:32Speaker 06

  So there's no question as to what came first.

• 27:35Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 27:35Speaker 06

  Um, but, uh, there is no federal case in Montana.

• 27:40Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 27:41Speaker 06

  And how it became a federal case in Wyoming, most people are like, it just because it like, it didn't necessarily have to, but it was interesting enough at the time that, uh, a federal judge decided to pick up that case.

• 27:58Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 27:59Speaker 06

  So, um, and it's not, it's odd that you can't,

• 28:04Speaker 06

  it, there's avenues to make an appeal to a federal court. Um, but it's not just something that.

• 28:12Speaker 06

  That is, uh, as you can't just pick and choose randomly, right?

• 28:16Steven Rinella?

  So where, whereas it in the 10th in Wyoming, what, what the, the, the incident that led to corner crossing being clarified legal is that there was some guys that corner crossed. They were cited for corner crossing and they were acquitted. The, the, the landowner appealed, they won. And that was the inciting incident was a specific corner crossing mechanism.

• 28:46Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 28:46Steven Rinella?

  And, um,

• 28:48Speaker 06

  And a lot of similarities to, right? The, the state of Wyoming, um, had said, this is not something that we're going to prosecute on. Um, both your, your game wardens, basically your law enforcement agencies. Uh, we're already at the point of like, this isn't something that we, we do.

• 29:06Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 29:07Speaker 06

  Um, unless there is actual trespass, which means like causing damage, spending time on, uh, private ground.

• 29:14Steven Rinella?

  And if this had, if just a little civics lesson here, and I think I'm clear on this.

• 29:20Steven Rinella?

  The, the landowner that was trying to like, keep it illegal to, to make it illegal to corner cross. Tried to take his case to the Supreme Court.

• 29:29Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 29:29Steven Rinella?

  The Supreme Court declined to hear it.

• 29:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 29:32Steven Rinella?

  So that ends that, that ends that legal fight.

• 29:35Speaker 06

  It does.

• 29:36Steven Rinella?

  For there, but had the Supreme Court taken, had the Supreme Court taken it? And again, declared it's legal. Would that have then been? Would that have then been for all districts?

• 29:49Speaker 06

  That would have been like the precedent setting case.

• 29:53Steven Rinella?

  So that would have all of a sudden made it that it's just like across the West, where applicable, it's legal.

• 29:59Speaker 06

  Yeah. And, and, and you know, it's our right, we can still fight these things. But, uh, an attorney is going to be like, hey, here's the deck that stacked against you. Like, I'll take your money, but.

• 30:14Steven Rinella?

  Like they declined to hear it.

• 30:15Speaker 06

  Right.

• 30:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 30:16Speaker 06

  Yep. So, uh, back here in the ninth circuit, um,

• 30:21Speaker 06

  The state of Montana has this long history of paying attention to corner crossing, not paying attention to corner crossing. Internal memos saying, we are gonna, um, we are not going to, uh, issue citations.

• 30:38Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 30:39Speaker 06

  Um, we'll defer to the county attorney's office. Uh, once the 10th Circuit, uh, court decision was made, then we started to see things change here in the state of Montana. Where they were kind of beefing up their, their language. The state was beef, beefing up the language. Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks is, you know, they don't get to create laws and rules and regulations. Uh, they just enforce them. And so they're, they're the, the mouthpiece for this, right?

• 31:13Speaker 06

  And eventually they essentially created a, a rule by saying, uh, wardens are gonna cite for corner crossing. Um, and at that point, uh, Montana BHA, and eventually myself had to have multiple conversations with the state.

• 31:37Steven Rinella?

  Can I pause you for a second?

• 31:38Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 31:39Steven Rinella?

  Cause this is a thing that just now is confusing to me.

• 31:41Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 31:41Steven Rinella?

  And it never confused me before.

• 31:43Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 31:45Steven Rinella?

  Why is corner crossing a fishing game? Like, why is it a fishing game issue? If, if it's a state wildlife agency and corner crossing can be federal or state and you could feasibly corner cross to go do anything.

• 32:04Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 32:05Steven Rinella?

  You could corner cross to go.

• 32:06Speaker 06

  Camp, hike and bike.

• 32:09Steven Rinella?

  Take a piss.

• 32:10Speaker 06

  Cut wood, whatever.

• 32:14Steven Rinella?

  Why is it their problem?

• 32:15Speaker 06

  Uh, because this is largely just focused on, on hunting.

• 32:19Speaker 07

  Right? It's like vast Bureau of Land Management land out there typically.

• 32:23Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 07

  Uh, a lot of state land too.

• 32:25Steven Rinella?

  Cause it's just who's doing it? Like who's likely to do it?

• 32:28Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 32:29Steven Rinella?

  It's not a dog walking. It's not regarded a dog walking issue.

• 32:32Speaker 07

  Man, I think there's also an aspect of like taking game off of.

• 32:38Steven Rinella?

  Sure.

• 32:40Speaker 07

  Public game off of private, you know what I mean?

• 32:42Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, but that gets into. I get why, like I get why, but I just.

• 32:48Speaker 07

  Well, well, I mean, the real, I think the, the real way to break it down, right? Is because in our state trespass laws. You have civil and criminal and within that you have hunting without landowner permission.

• 33:03Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, okay.

• 33:04Speaker 07

  Right? And that is something that game wardens, they're, they're, they're your, your people.

• 33:10Steven Rinella?

  No, that, yeah, that makes sense. Cause it's not the public end of it. You're right. It's not the BLM end of it.

• 33:15Speaker 07

  No.

• 33:16Steven Rinella?

  It's the, the dude who's laying your shoulders are passing over.

• 33:20Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 33:21Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 33:21Speaker 07

  And then, um, yeah, and then you get into all the things that we heard in the Wyoming case, which is like, how do we define airspace? And, and is this, if it is trespass, what are the damages? And how do we, how do we define and, and value the damages to private airspace? Um, and it, and a lot of this is just like totally academic. It's like having a, a really fun physics teacher, right? It's like, well, how many ants stretch around the circumference of the world? Right?

• 34:02Speaker 07

  Um, versus just like the practical nature of like, are there damages? Uh, is this something that the whole world needs to be involved in?

• 34:13Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 34:14Speaker 07

  Um, how, how do we extrapolate this out throughout time? All those, all those fun things. So, um.

• 34:24Speaker 07

  Montana BHA had had many, many conversations with, with the state on just simply saying.

• 34:33Speaker 07

  Go back to the previous memo. There is no law in the state of Montana that regards corner crossing. Go back to this legal gray area. And for those who wish, they can take their chances on being referred to a county attorney. But the reality is like, no county attorneys want to take this case.

• 34:57Speaker 07

  And, you know, I can tell you right now, like, I've never corner crossed. I know lots of people who do. This is not a new thing. It certainly gets headlines, but it's been going on forever. Years ago, when we were like researching places to hunt within the state of Montana to like helicopter into. Because they were, they were so landlocked, inevitably, I would talk to somebody and be like, well, you're not going to be the only person in there. People corner cross in there all the time. It's just like something that is done.

• 35:32Speaker 07

  And then we started hearing this.

• 35:40Speaker 07

  From Fish, Wildlife and Parks, you know, I just asked directly, I said, so why, in our opinion, there's an escalation in the language around corner crossing? Can you tell me why that is?

• 35:53Steven Rinella?

  Without a foundational change. In fact, quite the opposite.

• 35:56Speaker 07

  And they said, yes. It's because, they said, you're right. We are using stronger language around corner crossing. And it's because we've received more calls on trespassing, not at the corner.

• 36:15Speaker 07

  To which I responded, well, that's great. That's trespassing. And we have lots of laws for that.

• 36:19Steven Rinella?

  You should catch those guys.

• 36:20Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 36:23Speaker 07

  So that that was just like a interesting bit of conversation. But then, uh, yeah, we decided to, uh, file a suit against Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks. Uh, which again is like the, the mouthpiece for this. And, uh, in that suit, we say, hey, you guys stepped over the line. You guys created a, a rule without going through the proper public process that we have here.

• 36:50Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 36:50Speaker 07

  Um, so that's illegal. And then we would like the judge to define corner crossing in the state of Montana.

• 36:59Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 37:00Speaker 07

  Which called, we're asking for a declaratory judgment. So it's no jury.

• 37:06Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 07

  That's just, the judge gets to decide it's a very, uh, relatively quick legal avenue to getting a decision on something. Um, not a first choice scenario at all. Um, a lot of times there's risk involved with, with taking something to court because you may get a favorable decision that isn't exactly what you wanted either. Um, but we do have a legislative session coming up here in the state of Montana. And, um, that would be another way to define lawful access to, uh, publicly managed ground.

• 37:49Steven Rinella?

  Do you see?

• 37:53Steven Rinella?

  Is there a world where it would be beneficial to have a person who is cited? And do the same thing that happened in Wyoming?

• 38:08Steven Rinella?

  Like if you knew a guy, let's say you knew a guy.

• 38:10Speaker 07

  Well, there's no guarantee it's gonna be picked up by a federal court. And we know the federal argument works great. And we don't, you know, it is down to interpretation.

• 38:23Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 07

  Um, and, and the court cases that exist here in Montana are similar, but different. Um, you know, and some of them are pretty fun, like guys shooting ducks over other people's property. What can do, you know, stuff that is very much in the hunter's wheelhouse.

• 38:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 07

  And it's, it is, uh, good reading. Um.

• 38:47Speaker 07

  And

• 38:51Speaker 07

  so I would say no, I don't want people to go out and get caught and cited and then and then say, please, please. Let's go to court over this.

• 39:01Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 07

  Um, you know, the, the better pathway was one to have the state define this.

• 39:08Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 39:09Speaker 07

  Uh, and two would go through the proper legislative route. And

• 39:17Speaker 07

  and, and get this buy-in, right? So, um, there's a lot of actors at play here, uh, representing different groups, you know, I'll tell you like when we made the announcement of incoming CEO to, to BHA, I had a lot of people, uh, in the agriculture community, you know, just throughout like my friend and family network.

• 39:39Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 39:39Speaker 07

  Reach out and be like, okay.

• 39:43Speaker 07

  How are you gonna screw us? And how are you gonna help us? Was really the whole.

• 39:48Steven Rinella?

  Was the screw in this bucket, the corner crossing thing?

• 39:51Speaker 07

  No, interestingly enough. When I'd talk about this.

• 39:57Speaker 07

  Almost almost every single person that I talked to, and these are like old Montana families. They said, now, if you could tell me that corner crossing would move the elk off of my absentee landowner neighbor's property.

• 40:17Speaker 07

  So they keep moving around. Instead of just coming on to my place at night. I'd be all four corner crossing.

• 40:24Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 40:26Steven Rinella?

  For this guy, I got it.

• 40:28Speaker 07

  Right?

• 40:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 40:29Speaker 07

  But the next door neighbor who is completely absentee, doesn't do anything, but show up for a couple of days during elk season. Um, that's who I want help with.

• 40:40Steven Rinella?

  Got it.

• 40:42Steven Rinella?

  When we're gonna know more? How long will it be?

• 40:44Speaker 07

  So, um, the, we filed a couple of weeks ago, then you have to serve. Um, to my knowledge, it has been served and then the state will have forty-two days from, from when they received the paperwork to, uh, make some sort of an action.

• 41:06Steven Rinella?

  Got it.

• 41:07Speaker 07

  So, more than, more than likely what, uh, they will do is ask for the case to just be dismissed. Say, well, it doesn't meet, no, no, no, this was just a memo. We didn't create a rule or a law and ask for, ask for the case to be dismissed.

• 41:24Steven Rinella?

  In the meantime, if you or your friends are somehow taking a more casual attitude to trespassing because of your understanding that corner crossing is legal and you just now feel like you're just allowed to go where you want. You're not only hurting, you're hurting yourself, you're hurting hunters in general, and it sounds to me like you're also hurting this process.

• 41:51Speaker 07

  Yes, absolutely.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the, the lieutenant governor gave a statement last week about corner crossing and essentially sort of just declared it illegal. And, um,

• 42:05Speaker 07

  Well, I don't, I don't think the lieutenant governor quite did that. She made her opinion be known and then Representative Paul Fielder.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, he said, thanks for telling us what the law is.

• 42:15Speaker 07

  Yes, he is the one who then.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  But someone at the, someone at the committee meeting said, you know, if, if this is illegal and has always been illegal, can you give us examples of people who have been cited for corner crossing? And the only, she said, well, there was this corner crossing case, but it turned out that they were actually just trespassing. And there was this corner crossing case and it, but it turned out like when they went back and investigated, these guys were just, it was just a plain trespass. So every example that she gave to sort of throw doubt on

• 42:46Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  corner crossing is a legitimate form of access. Every one of those was, were a case. In which people claimed their corner crossing, but they're actually just trespassing.

• 42:55Steven Rinella?

  Because I, I think what's motivating that with people is, is, is guys are saying, hey, once we're on there, we'll just say we crossed at the corner.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:03Steven Rinella?

  And, and those guys are going to screw this whole thing.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:05Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 43:06Steven Rinella?

  Those guys are going to screw this.

• 43:07Speaker 07

  Exactly. Because it is.

• 43:09Steven Rinella?

  Buddy, if we're out there, just say we can't, just like, say we came over from blankety blank corner.

• 43:12Speaker 07

  Yeah. Especially when you're out there in the middle of nowhere, right? And oftentimes there are no fences. You're like, well, this seems pretty arbitrary.

• 43:19Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 07

  Right?

• 43:20Steven Rinella?

  If I was a landowner, I'd put a camera on my property on the corner. And then when guys are like, I corner crossed and I know they didn't corner cross. I know they came in from some other way. I'd be like, well, let's go have a look. Your picture should be on my camera. And lo and behold, you ain't on it.

• 43:36Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 43:37Steven Rinella?

  At the corner.

• 43:38Speaker 07

  Uh, the other interesting thing that, uh, the lieutenant governor brought up is, uh, problem corners, which is something that, that came up in Wyoming as well, where, uh, we don't have the exact location of a corner anymore. Because it was marked with a pile of rocks or a, you know, dinosaur bone is something people reference. I've never seen that personally. Um, and, or there was a tree there, or there was something other than a survey marker, right? Um, big boulder, something that is going to be very, very hard to cross over the top of without having to step on, on private land. Um,

• 44:23Speaker 07

  it's awesome that the lieutenant governor brought that up. The state of Montana, uh, is not doing anything to identify those. Neither has the state of Wyoming. Um, we created a site at backcountry hunters and anglers using ArcGIS where, um, if you would like to turn in problem corners, so we can identify them.

• 44:42Steven Rinella?

  Oh, that's great.

• 44:43Speaker 07

  You can just plop your coordinate, coordinates in there and that can be a misaligned fence. That can be a missing monument marker. That can be all, all sorts of things that just go, oh, this puts me outside of this legal gray area.

• 44:58Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. I was, i- i- in the lead up to this, as this is going on, I was picturing. And I don't even know how it would play out. I was picturing doing fundraising in order to help clarify, mark and identify corners. The problem with that, I can, I imagine my own problem that you would run into is you would need to get the land management agency on board.

• 45:25Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 45:26Steven Rinella?

  And it just might not be a thing they want to entertain. But if you to go out and be like, hey, no, we're going to pay for it. We'd like to have, we'd like to have the corners surveyed and marked. But then you'd have to do the permit process with them. And depending on their attitude about how much they want to court controversy, they might not welcome that input. And they might not have a mechanism to accept that money anyways.

• 45:45Speaker 06

  You'd probably have to get the landowners involved too, which.

• 45:48Steven Rinella?

  And they might not, they might not be that excited about that.

• 45:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, I mean.

• 45:52Steven Rinella?

  But it was in my mind.

• 45:54Speaker 07

  And the thing that we've said from the get go, right, is like, we just need a nice, very quiet solution, because the vast majority of these people don't want to be hassled. They don't want to see a bunch of trucks piled up at a corner. And I'm like, and neither do hunters. Like, we just want to know that we're in the right and not be hassled and go do our thing. And that is it. So there's a ton of, ton of ground in the middle here. And we're really, really trying to keep it that way versus see some of these arguments get picked up like, oh, it's anti-private property rights. Whereas we're trying to define private property

• 46:34Speaker 07

  rights. And like happened in Wyoming, we were very supportive of a bill that clarified private property language and, you know, gave some assurances to the private side of the fence that people know what private property is. But what we're seeing out of the state so far is a lot of acknowledgement of the problems without any.

• 47:04Speaker 07

  Uh, work towards fixing those problems. Um, or like you said, you know, I had brought a solution Uh, that would take a lot of work, but I think would would pay really big dividends for everybody. And you know, there just wasn't a lot of interest in um endorsing that effort or Uh, even acknowledging it as something productive. Uh, but I think we'll get there and that might be something This lawsuit helps with. There's another program that we put into action in Montana through the legislature That would uh, provide private property owners, the ability to create uh easements through the block management program.

• 47:49Speaker 07

  So they wouldn't have to open up their property to hunting, but they could provide an access corridor To landlocked lands.

• 47:58Steven Rinella?

  That's a slick idea.

• 47:59Speaker 07

  Or corner locked lands.

• 48:00Steven Rinella?

  Heck yeah, man.

• 48:01Speaker 07

  Um, so same deal, willing buyer, willing seller scenario.

• 48:05Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 48:05Speaker 07

  And uh, would be contractual, just like our block management, private land, public access program is.

• 48:12Steven Rinella?

  That's slick, man. Pay people for pay people for trespass.

• 48:15Speaker 07

  However, um, we can't get

• 48:20Speaker 07

  Any metrics out of the state as to How many people were interested in the program, how many people they actually talked to about it, any sort of feedback. Um, and so, you know, I think if we want this program to succeed and be a viable option, Put a couple of bucks in the pocket of producers who are keeping land open for wildlife connectivity.

• 48:43Steven Rinella?

  That might be a good private, that might be a good privately funded effort.

• 48:47Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. And it and it's gonna be up to us to

• 48:50Steven Rinella?

  Make a little pot of money.

• 48:51Speaker 07

  Make people aware of it.

• 48:52Steven Rinella?

  We gotta move on, but but picture. You set it up and you make a little pot of money and strike your own deals with a private entity. Yep. Nonprofit entity. Yep. Ladies and gentlemen, Ryan Callahan, back from the dead, CEO of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers.

• 49:09Speaker 06

  Welcome back, Cal.

• 49:10Speaker 07

  Thank you. Do I get to sit in on the rest of this?

• 49:13Steven Rinella?

  Oh, you hang out.

• 49:14Speaker 06

  Can I say one last thing? I'm looking at the 31-page document where the Montana Lieutenant Governor, like, made this announcement.

• 49:21Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 49:22Speaker 06

  On slide seven of 31 slides, they say, "Ownership of real property extends above and below the surface from ancient Roman law." Quote, "To whomsoever the soil belongs, he owns also the sky and to the depths."

• 49:36Speaker 07

  From the heavens to the hell.

• 49:37Speaker 06

  I think if you're referencing-

• 49:39Steven Rinella?

  What do they say about, what do the Romans say about COVID vaccine recommendations?

• 49:43Speaker 06

  If you're referencing something from 500 B.C., from an empire that doesn't exist, you're on the losing side of the argument. That dislike doesn't work.

• 49:52Steven Rinella?

  That reminds me of Didu, eh, from the land and from the sea.

• 49:55Speaker 07

  From, there's been, this is where, this is the structure of a lot of our private property law in America, right? Comes Roman, England, over here. And that has been referenced many times as like, yeah, that's a fun history fact, but is it applicable today?

• 50:15Steven Rinella?

  Aren't they the people that killed Jesus?

• 50:17Speaker 06

  What if we find something from like the USSR that said something about like stepping from one property-

• 50:23Steven Rinella?

  No, because that's not how, because law didn't flow that way. There, I gotta move on. There is a thing to this. There is a thing to this.

• 50:31Speaker 06

  To referencing the Roman Empire.

• 50:32Steven Rinella?

  Like, like-

• 50:33Speaker 06

  But why can't we do the USSR?

• 50:35Steven Rinella?

  It just doesn't work that way.

• 50:36Speaker 06

  Oh, okay.

• 50:37Steven Rinella?

  It's like the cradle of Western civilization. Anyhow.

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• 51:23Speaker 07

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• 51:45Speaker 03

  What's that?

• 51:46Speaker 04

  My fresh detector.

• 51:47Speaker 03

  Uh, your what?

• 51:48Speaker 04

  There it is.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  What is it detecting?

• 51:51Speaker 04

  Fresh produce, fresh meat.

• 51:54Speaker 03

  Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 51:59Speaker 04

  Apparently we celebrate.

• 52:01Speaker 03

  At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices. When your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 52:12Steven Rinella?

  A new Jaguar is in Arizona. They named it Cinco.

• 52:19Steven Rinella?

  Somewhat arbitrarily.

• 52:22Steven Rinella?

  Good job, Phil.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  It's a good looking cat.

• 52:23Speaker 06

  Good looking Jaguar.

• 52:25Steven Rinella?

  Dude, you want to see a great photo? Phil, type in Jaguar in the snow.

• 52:31Speaker 07

  Just, just a random Jaguar?

• 52:32Steven Rinella?

  No, just Jaguar in the snow. I know what image you're gonna pull up.

• 52:35Speaker 06

  You know why they named him Cinco?

• 52:37Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you. It's somewhat arbitrary. It's the fifth Jaguar known to be in Arizona in the last 20 years.

• 52:43Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 52:44Steven Rinella?

  But it's more, it's more interesting than that. What's interesting is, so, so this Jaguar is hanging around. The people that are tracking it with trail cameras don't want to be too specific about its location, but it's in the Sky Island mountain chain, south of Tucson in Arizona. It's in Coosier country. Here's where it's interesting.

• 53:04Steven Rinella?

  This Jaguar Cinco is using the same travel corridors. It's using...

• 53:13Speaker 07

  Which one of these you want to look at?

• 53:14Steven Rinella?

  Oh, not those. Never mind.

• 53:17Steven Rinella?

  I thought you'd pull it right up. So Arizona Jaguar, snow, there's a trail cam photo. Just whatever. Never mind. Keep that one up. That's Cinco.

• 53:26Speaker 07

  Great.

• 53:27Steven Rinella?

  It is using, this is where it gets good.

• 53:31Steven Rinella?

  It's using the same water holes, travel corridors, trails, as another one of these Jaguars did in the past.

• 53:40Speaker 06

  El Hefe, or was it?

• 53:41Steven Rinella?

  I can't remember. I don't know which one. But it's it, because like, so it's like, there's, there's two things. One, is it that this piece of habitat is so good?

• 53:51Steven Rinella?

  And it's like such a signature of what Jaguars want. That it's like he just settled into the same place. Or is it that there is years old residual odor? From a Jaguar, which is holding this Jaguars attention, or is it like sight fidelity? Meaning if you, let's say you went to a farm and you killed all the deer off a farm. So there's no institutional memory, right? And new deer come back, they're probably gonna wind up coming out of the same corner. Bedding in the same area, right? Like they're gonna look at it the same way. You take all the fish out of a lake, it's not like you put new fish in the lake that they're gonna have a totally different way of hanging out.

• 54:35Steven Rinella?

  They're gonna like the same stuff. I'm just guessing here, but it's probably true. So it's just interesting that like they're drawn to certain things, which opens up the possibility. Because when Jaguars turn up in Arizona, they're always males. They're dispersing males coming out of Mexico. But it opens up the possibility that what would seem so random.

• 54:55Steven Rinella?

  That a female would show up and you'd be like, well, how in the hell is a female ever gonna find a male?

• 55:01Steven Rinella?

  You know, but maybe there's something about the site specificity that it opens up the idea that you could plausibly. Instead of having one Jaguar at a time in Arizona, you could plausibly have two. That are drawn to the same place and find each other. Which is promising.

• 55:22Steven Rinella?

  Again, this dude Cinco is a male. All these are males. There's a guy, there's a researcher quoted in this Tucson. Star, is that the name of the outfit, the name of the old rag?

• 55:35Speaker 06

  Sentinel.

• 55:35Steven Rinella?

  Tucson Sentinel. There's a researcher saying perhaps these Jaguars, I don't know where he gets this. They're fleeing persecution in the South. Oh. Come on. That's reading into things. That's not what's. The Jaguars not like I'm sensing persecution of myself in the South. I'm going to move up to like the North. It's dispersing males. It's like males trying to find new territories. Yeah. When he says persecution. I don't even know what the hell he's talking about. By other males or like the cartels. The same guy also, I'll get to another point. The guy, the same guy said it's kind of goofy.

• 56:10Speaker 07

  It means that the Jaguars organized for rights. Courtesy of Randall.

• 56:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Slack. I slacked it to Phil. That's a Jaguar in Arizona. Picture that Jaguar in the snow. That's what I want more of in my life. Jaguars in the snow. I'm a big, huge, you don't might not notice about me. Huge Jaguar advocate. I want Jaguars back in America. Big cat guy. Big cat guy. Not just that, big Jaguar guy.

• 56:41Steven Rinella?

  They don't want to put a collar on these Jaguars because they got a hangover from, they got a hangover from the Macho B. Careful here. I know. Careful. Listen, I'm going to hear about it. I have dear friends that don't like talking about this. There's a hangover from an incident called the Macho B incident where in Arizona, I don't want to get into it too much. In Arizona, they caught a Jaguar.

• 57:11Steven Rinella?

  And sedated it with a sedative that is good for mountain lions, but is, is not good for members of the Pantera genus. And how'd they find that out? Because it had kidney failure. So now there is a man, let's not be putting no collars on no Jaguars. I, without being a ex, without being a wildlife professional.

• 57:38Steven Rinella?

  I think you should. The reason I think you should is because it would help you when some guy sees this and shoots it because he's wondering what it is. It would help you know that happened, where that happened and potentially who did it.

• 57:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, who the persecuting parties.

• 57:52Steven Rinella?

  When it goes off radar, if you're only using trail cams, when it goes off radar, only thing you know is it's not walking in front of your cameras. If you got a collar, you get a mortality signal. It just seems to be better to put a collar on that son of a bitch to, to, to risk, to take the risk. Put a collar on it. If it was a female, I might be like too risky. Don't do it. On a male, I'd put a collar on that sucker. Uh.

• 58:20Speaker 07

  But isn't it Heffelfinger's like long position? Like how much actual mating went on in the Arizona side of the line?

• 58:30Steven Rinella?

  I am not going to mention Jim Heffelfinger.

• 58:32Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 58:32Steven Rinella?

  Except for just what I did right there.

• 58:34Speaker 07

  Okay, perfect.

• 58:35Steven Rinella?

  I am not mentioning.

• 58:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Good. Yeah.

• 58:43Steven Rinella?

  The same researcher, the, the trouble with all this is this damn border fence.

• 58:49Steven Rinella?

  Between us and Mexico. I give my, I'm not even going to give my spiel again about this. This is a wildlife show. So I'm not talking about egg product. This is a wildlife show. The, the, the, the one way we can guarantee to never have Jaguars back is you build an impenetrable barrier between us and Mexico because they're coming out of Mexico.

• 59:08Speaker 06

  We're going to talk about that next week.

• 59:10Steven Rinella?

  One of these researchers saying, when these Jaguars come up against the border fence, he suggests, I get where he's getting at. He's trying to be like real anti fence, which I appreciate. But, um, in this case, this is his job. But then he uses the same scare tactics that I hate people using. Like, like, just be honest. He's like, they come up against the fence and they'll just walk along the fence until they die of thirst or starve to death. No, that's just, that's just not what animal, how animals, how many like.

• 59:42Steven Rinella?

  Go to any fence and walk along and find all the starved to death died of thirst deer along the fence. They come up to a fence. They try to find a way through and then they go about their business. I don't think that that's.

• 59:53Speaker 06

  Could be true if you're talking about turkeys.

• 59:56Steven Rinella?

  It's just like, I get it. He's kind of like being like, man, I don't want this fence. What can I say that sounds like crazy? They'll walk down the fence until they starve to death.

• 1:00:05Speaker 06

  They just give up.

• 1:00:06Steven Rinella?

  He's like.

• 1:00:07Speaker 07

  Every time you see that is a South Texas cold snap.

• 1:00:10Steven Rinella?

  I thought, or it seems like the beach, the Atlantic coast would just be dead animals that hit the shoreline and then walked until they starved to death.

• 1:00:21Speaker 06

  Fell over.

• 1:00:21Steven Rinella?

  It would just be nothing but dead animals up and down the coastline.

• 1:00:26Speaker 07

  I thought we're making big headway on having permeable sections of the border down there.

• 1:00:32Steven Rinella?

  That's why I'm a big advocate of electronic barriers.

• 1:00:34Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:00:35Steven Rinella?

  As technologies get so good, Lord knows drones are getting good. As their technologies get so good, some people are even positing. I mean, there's even people that are primarily, and again, I'm not talking.

• 1:00:47Speaker 07

  Well, there's like that constitutional sheriff's group down there that was like, no, we do not need a wall through Big Ben National Park and through.

• 1:00:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:55Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Steven Rinella?

  It's more and more, and it's like, we, our brand promises, we focus on wildlife and outdoor stuff and hunting and fishing. So I'm not talking about this, it's out of this show's area of expertise to talk about the impacts of, of illegal migration, which are huge. And there are plenty of places you can go listen to the news and hear about that. This is a wildlife show. The fence is a good for wildlife. You can, you can accept that and then come up to whatever decision you want about fences. That's up to you. I respect your decision. But for wildlife, it ain't good. You can, you could decide that you don't care about that. That's totally fine. That's your right as a listener. Feel what you think. For wildlife, it's a bummer.

• 1:01:40Steven Rinella?

  In addition to that, I'll say for the wildlife question, there's also increasingly, there's an argument to be made that electronic barriers are more effective, quicker to put in place, and ultimately less expensive. I'll just leave it at that. There's plenty of places to go read more about it.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  And we're also not going to talk about Jim Heffelfinger.

• 1:01:58Speaker 06

  Can I talk about Jim real quick if you're not going to?

• 1:02:01Steven Rinella?

  You're gonna talk about Heffelfinger?

• 1:02:02Speaker 06

  Just real fast.

• 1:02:03Steven Rinella?

  Get ready for an email.

• 1:02:04Speaker 06

  The other day in an email, Jim called himself Forrest Gump. I'm currently reading.

• 1:02:10Steven Rinella?

  Don't talk about that.

• 1:02:11Speaker 06

  I'm currently reading Forrest Gump. He's not Forrest Gump.

• 1:02:14Steven Rinella?

  Oh, no, you can't read Forrest Gump because it's terrible.

• 1:02:16Speaker 06

  It's really bad.

• 1:02:17Steven Rinella?

  The movie is better than the book.

• 1:02:18Speaker 06

  In two pages, Forrest goes from protesting the Vietnam War, to being thrown in a mental health hospital, to becoming an astronaut, to going to outer space with a gorilla, the wrong gorilla.

• 1:02:31Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 1:02:31Speaker 06

  To crash landing the space shuttle with, in Papua New Guinea where he lives with cannibals. That all happens in two pages. So I'm sorry, Jim Heffelfinger, you're not Forrest Gump.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:02:44Speaker 06

  The book is insane.

• 1:02:45Steven Rinella?

  You're baiting me in.

• 1:02:46Speaker 06

  The book is so crazy.

• 1:02:48Steven Rinella?

  No one in their right mind would read that book, and I read that damn book.

• 1:02:50Speaker 06

  Don't read the book. The movie's, the movie's great. I love the book. Yeah.

• 1:02:53Steven Rinella?

  Heffelfinger.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Not for kids.

• 1:02:55Steven Rinella?

  Heffelfinger winds up. No, there's a part, yeah. I just wanted to move on.

• 1:03:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, let's move on.

• 1:03:01Steven Rinella?

  Just this morning, I was talking about having Heffelfinger come back on the show about something totally different, which is super fascinating. He can speak for himself.

• 1:03:08Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:03:11Steven Rinella?

  Who's up?

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Seth. I can't wait for him.

• 1:03:13Speaker 06

  Speaking of technology.

• 1:03:15Steven Rinella?

  Ladies and gentlemen, this is Seth's first news story.

• 1:03:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, hopefully it goes well. We'll see.

• 1:03:19Steven Rinella?

  Did you practice it in front of your wife?

• 1:03:21Speaker 06

  No. Steve Judge is very harsh, Seth.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  There's no guarantees, Seth.

• 1:03:26Speaker 06

  I'm not worried about it. A recent study published by the I C E S Journal Marine Science found that boats using the Omni sonar, or omnidirectional sonar.

• 1:03:38Speaker 07

  Um, while fishing the big rock blue marlin uh tournament, which is a billfish tournament.

• 1:03:44Speaker 06

  Uh, Morehead City, North Cackalacki.

• 1:03:46Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Speaker 06

  Michael Jordan competes in that one.

• 1:03:48Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Steven Rinella?

  Is that the same one where the dude had the, the one that got bit by a shark or something like that? Yeah. Okay.

• 1:03:53Speaker 07

  Um, they, they found that uh boats that were using the technology experienced 60 to 84% higher catch rates. Then boats without the technology.

• 1:04:03Steven Rinella?

  God, I wish I could whistle better because I'd go.

• 1:04:06Speaker 07

  Um, what is um, any sonar you might ask? Well, it is.

• 1:04:10Steven Rinella?

  That's a nice way to do it.

• 1:04:11Speaker 07

  Great dude, like, yeah. It is an advanced underwater scanning system that gives anglers a 360 degree. Live sonar view. That's what the screen looks like.

• 1:04:20Steven Rinella?

  Visual aids? Geez, man.

• 1:04:22Speaker 07

  So that there on the left would be a, a mark, a fish.

• 1:04:26Steven Rinella?

  Really?

• 1:04:26Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:04:28Speaker 06

  What's the other stuff? It's just in a circle?

• 1:04:29Speaker 07

  It's like sea currents and stuff like that.

• 1:04:30Speaker 06

  And you're able to like, tell how far that mark is from the boat.

• 1:04:34Speaker 07

  Yeah, somehow I, I don't exact, it's like very high tech stuff that I have no experience with, but, and. I was watching a video on it and it's, it seems like they can click on that with a cursor. And they can.

• 1:04:47Speaker 06

  Go to it.

• 1:04:47Speaker 07

  Go to it and track it.

• 1:04:50Speaker 06

  Oh, well, um. Not Remy, but uh.

• 1:04:55Speaker 07

  Renee.

• 1:04:56Speaker 06

  Renee.

• 1:04:56Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, he uses it.

• 1:04:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:04:58Speaker 07

  I called him a few times and never, never got a hold of him.

• 1:05:00Speaker 06

  He said that they basically, they don't troll anymore. Once they find the fish and then they feed that fish a particular bait that they've rigged up.

• 1:05:10Speaker 07

  I was watching a video of it and they're like, oh, there's a mark and they like clicked on it and the, the boat like kind of navigated to that mark. And he's like, all right, we're going over it right now. And he scans over, he scans his phone over to down imaging. He's like, there's the fish. And then he turns around and starts filming his baits that he's trolling. And then he hooks up on a fish.

• 1:05:30Steven Rinella?

  Sons of bitches, man.

• 1:05:34Speaker 07

  What's that?

• 1:05:34Steven Rinella?

  Jealous or?

• 1:05:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:05:36Steven Rinella?

  Man, I don't know.

• 1:05:37Speaker 07

  Anyway, it's like, it's like a forward facing sonar, but it's like a three, it casts like a 360 degree beam around the boat. And like. Yeah, and it descends out of the hole. Yeah, it's a through hole transducer. I have pictures of the thing. Go to the next.

• 1:05:53Steven Rinella?

  If we were alive a long time ago and someone invented a hook, would we be like, what's the world coming to? You gotta use a. Now they're using hooks.

• 1:06:01Speaker 07

  I was in a technology seminar at the North American Wildlife thing a couple of weeks ago, and one of their examples of emerging technology was choke tubes. That people were like.

• 1:06:14Steven Rinella?

  What's the world coming to?

• 1:06:15Speaker 07

  Right there. Go to number three. So here's.

• 1:06:20Steven Rinella?

  Seth's tearing a new one.

• 1:06:22Speaker 07

  To the right here, the far right is the actual unit.

• 1:06:25Steven Rinella?

  Huh.

• 1:06:25Speaker 07

  And then that's the hole, the hole in the bottom of the hole in the middle, and then that's the transducer coming out.

• 1:06:30Steven Rinella?

  Huh.

• 1:06:30Speaker 07

  Of the bottom.

• 1:06:31Steven Rinella?

  Also, you can put that sucker in and retract it out.

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  This is a phenomenal.

• 1:06:35Speaker 06

  You don't want to be underway, I don't think with that.

• 1:06:37Speaker 07

  No, no, you gotta, you gotta.

• 1:06:39Speaker 06

  Did it say how much these systems cost?

• 1:06:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, I was gonna get to that. Um, towards the end.

• 1:06:44Steven Rinella?

  God. Look at. Dude, Seth's gonna need a new job.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  I'm gonna get voted off the island.

• 1:06:50Speaker 07

  Alright, so the, the study analyzed, uh, two years.

• 1:06:53Steven Rinella?

  Go take Randall C over there?

• 1:06:55Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 1:06:55Steven Rinella?

  It's nice and warm.

• 1:06:57Speaker 07

  The study analyzed two years of data, um, from this, this specific tournament.

• 1:07:03Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:07:03Speaker 07

  2024, 2025. And the, the scientists doing the study compared catch rates between boats equipped with the technology and, uh, without it. Um, and they found, um, that the technology significantly increased catch rates, um, of blue marlin and other pelagic species.

• 1:07:28Speaker 07

  Data from three hundred and two participants was analyzed in two thousand twenty-four and two hundred and seventy-two participants in two thousand twenty-five. Of the five hundred and seventy-four participants. About fifty fifty were using the the sonar.

• 1:07:44Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:45Speaker 07

  Um.

• 1:07:47Speaker 07

  In the two years that were analyzed, forty-six of the boats, okay, this is, this is. Lot of numbers here.

• 1:07:52Steven Rinella?

  Okay. You're doing great.

• 1:07:54Speaker 07

  Forty-six of the boats caught four or more billfish. So you you can kind of see in this chart here. The light blue. Um, does not have it, dark blue has it, so all was left there. That's, you know, a hundred and sixty-plus boats that do not have the sonar. Caught zero fish. Okay?

• 1:08:18Speaker 07

  Um, you know, whatever.

• 1:08:21Speaker 07

  Seventy-five-ish caught no fish. Now, if you go all the way to the right.

• 1:08:25Steven Rinella?

  So a hundred and sixty boats with no sonar caught zero fish. Seventy-eight boats with no sonar caught zero fish.

• 1:08:35Speaker 07

  Yeah. With sonar. With sonar.

• 1:08:37Steven Rinella?

  Sorry, sorry, sorry.

• 1:08:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, so if you go to the right here. There is, you know, you start, you start getting to the part of the chart where boats with. Without the sonar aren't catching over.

• 1:08:50Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:51Speaker 07

  Five fish.

• 1:08:51Steven Rinella?

  Can I, can I, can I interpret this real quick?

• 1:08:53Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah, go ahead. It's a little confusing.

• 1:08:55Steven Rinella?

  No, it is, but I'm, but I'm just, I'm just trying to think about people not listening.

• 1:08:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:08:58Steven Rinella?

  So. If you look at like boats that got skunked, okay, you got a hundred and sixty boats with no sonar that got skunked. You got seventy-five boats. With sonar that got skunked, so it's not a guarantee. Right? But then you get down and let's say you're talking about catching four. Fish. At the point when it's you caught four billfish. No boats with no sonar caught four.

• 1:09:28Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:09:29Steven Rinella?

  Only people that caught four are boats with sonar. Five fish. No one with no sonar is catching five. Six. No one with no sonar is catching six. Seven, same. Eight, same. Nine, same.

• 1:09:46Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:09:47Steven Rinella?

  So if you don't, so basically this chart is saying if you don't have sonar, your catch is capped at three billfish. If you have it, it seems you'd have the potential to catch nine. But then this is the question I got for you, and I told you this when we talked.

• 1:10:08Steven Rinella?

  Is it just the classic case of that those dudes, that the dudes that are so serious, they would have caught more anyway, are also the guys that happen to have the sonar?

• 1:10:18Speaker 07

  Well, I got something for you.

• 1:10:19Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:10:20Speaker 07

  Ooh. There were, from two thousand twenty-four, two thousand twenty-five, there were sixteen boats that went from not having the technology to having it.

• 1:10:28Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 1:10:29Speaker 07

  And their catch rate increased by ninety-four percent.

• 1:10:32Steven Rinella?

  Ah.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:10:33Steven Rinella?

  Seth. Dude, you could convince someone in a jury trial.

• 1:10:36Speaker 07

  I liked the, the four catch. Because that's like, like you, it's like people without sonar, but really know the system, the currents, they're, they're, they're fishy dudes. That's where they drop off.

• 1:10:54Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 1:10:54Speaker 07

  Right? It's like, they, they've, all that skill then is outmatched by the advantage of technology.

• 1:11:03Steven Rinella?

  Am I hallucinating? Is there a blip at eighteen?

• 1:11:07Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Sonar boat.

• 1:11:08Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah, I didn't even notice that.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  That's a sonar boat.

• 1:11:10Steven Rinella?

  Then there's a sonar boat that is clocking in

• 1:11:13Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:11:13Steven Rinella?

  at eighteen billfish.

• 1:11:16Speaker 07

  Yeah, that had six of those sonar.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  I mean, another way to read this.

• 1:11:19Steven Rinella?

  They had one really good day.

• 1:11:21Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Speaker 02

  Another way to read this is that the majority of boats without sonar got skunked. And that boats with sonar were just as likely to catch one or two, essentially, as get skunked.

• 1:11:34Steven Rinella?

  Riffing bills, dude.

• 1:11:35Speaker 07

  Yeah, bills.

• 1:11:35Speaker 06

  Why, this might come back to the cost thing, but why would some boats not even have it? Because it's new.

• 1:11:41Steven Rinella?

  You're too poor.

• 1:11:41Speaker 07

  Well, so.

• 1:11:43Steven Rinella?

  He's got something for that.

• 1:11:45Speaker 07

  It goes on to say that the researchers looked at the teams that struggled during the tournament and of the boats that didn't catch any billfish. Those without Omni sonar outnumbered those with it more than two to one.

• 1:12:03Speaker 07

  So cost breakdown. The Omni directional sonar unit, depending on who you get it from, is ninety-five to a hundred thousand dollars. Install is twenty-five to thirty grand.

• 1:12:16Speaker 02

  Oh, you can install it yourself.

• 1:12:18Speaker 06

  Could you do it Seth? Could you install one?

• 1:12:20Speaker 07

  Seth's pretty handy on electronics. I'd have to.

• 1:12:22Speaker 06

  I don't.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  You gotta cut a hole.

• 1:12:24Speaker 07

  Like an airboat?

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  No problem.

• 1:12:26Speaker 06

  That's a lot of dough.

• 1:12:27Speaker 07

  They're cutting a hole in a rich hole to the bottom of your boat.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  And it's not just any boat.

• 1:12:32Speaker 06

  It's a lot of dough.

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  This is a million or two million dollar boat.

• 1:12:35Speaker 07

  Seventy foot Vikings, big expensive boat.

• 1:12:38Speaker 06

  I feel like for a lot of these boat owners, that cost is not like prohibitive.

• 1:12:42Speaker 07

  This just kind of puts in perspective. The tournament entry fee is fifty thousand dollars per boat. And the purse in total is just over six point three million dollars.

• 1:12:55Speaker 02

  Oh, you're wasting money if you're fishing without.

• 1:12:57Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, but you still gotta have it be that your wife's like looking at credit card stuff. And there's like a zinger.

• 1:13:05Steven Rinella?

  There is a zinger.

• 1:13:06Speaker 07

  Maybe.

• 1:13:07Steven Rinella?

  On there that isn't normally on there.

• 1:13:11Steven Rinella?

  What's this hundred thousand dollars thing?

• 1:13:14Speaker 07

  I'd be really interested to know like fuel consumed with boats with versus without.

• 1:13:20Speaker 06

  Good argument.

• 1:13:21Steven Rinella?

  That's what you wind up telling her. You see like, baby, listen.

• 1:13:23Speaker 07

  This is more ecologically friendly.

• 1:13:25Steven Rinella?

  The amount this is gonna save me on fuel.

• 1:13:27Speaker 07

  Yeah. And your percentage.

• 1:13:29Steven Rinella?

  And winnings?

• 1:13:30Speaker 07

  The percentage of winnings goes up higher. That's the reason all the twenty-three boats out there is there's a lot of side money being wagered. The Calcutta is the big money in these tournaments.

• 1:13:43Steven Rinella?

  So then you say, you're like, baby, listen, man, it's like, when you look at all my prize money and fuel savings. You're gonna thank me.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  I can go out and get a fish and be back for time at the country club.

• 1:13:53Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  Play a game of tennis with you in the afternoon.

• 1:13:55Steven Rinella?

  To take your mom out to dinner.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  Investment in our relationship.

• 1:13:57Speaker 06

  Eventually it'll be, they'll be like, oh, that mark's not big enough. We need to go find a bigger one.

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  Well, that's how it is for.

• 1:14:03Steven Rinella?

  First year.

• 1:14:04Speaker 07

  Bass fishing now.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  That one of these was in the tournament. Was there one boat that had it or was there already five boats that had it?

• 1:14:12Speaker 06

  Like was there one year where one guy was just like?

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:17Speaker 06

  Or was there five boats that were thinking that, you know?

• 1:14:20Speaker 07

  I think that's how it was.

• 1:14:20Speaker 06

  What are you sure about?

• 1:14:21Speaker 07

  I think that's how it was with like the Bassmaster Elite Series, you know, like

• 1:14:25Speaker 06

  Somebody was first.

• 1:14:26Speaker 07

  The first year forward-facing sonar came on the scene, a couple boats had it.

• 1:14:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:14:32Speaker 07

  They were doing it well. I mean, it took a lot.

• 1:14:33Speaker 06

  I'd like to know if it was one or if it was 10.

• 1:14:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:14:36Speaker 06

  First year.

• 1:14:37Steven Rinella?

  Hey, I want to point out too, Seth was just talking about that he got bad grades in high school.

• 1:14:43Speaker 07

  Yeah, Jimmy has a bright future.

• 1:14:44Steven Rinella?

  So there is a path for it.

• 1:14:45Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:14:46Steven Rinella?

  This guy, look at this guy over here.

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  A hell of a report.

• 1:14:48Steven Rinella?

  Seth Morris.

• 1:14:49Speaker 06

  Well done.

• 1:14:49Steven Rinella?

  Holy smokes. This is an amazing segment.

• 1:14:52Speaker 06

  Keeping up with the Jordans.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  Power this thing down, Phil.

• 1:14:55Steven Rinella?

  You know, amazing segment.

• 1:14:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, lunchtime.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

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• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  What's that?

• 1:16:10Speaker 04

  My fresh detector.

• 1:16:11Speaker 03

  Uh, you're what?

• 1:16:13Speaker 04

  There it is.

• 1:16:14Speaker 03

  What is it detecting?

• 1:16:15Speaker 04

  Fresh produce, fresh meat.

• 1:16:18Speaker 03

  Okay, what happens if it detects something really fresh?

• 1:16:23Speaker 04

  Apparently we celebrate.

• 1:16:25Speaker 03

  At Food Lion, you can count on fresh food at fresher prices when your fresh detector is going off. Head to your local Food Lion or shop at foodlion.com.

• 1:16:36Steven Rinella?

  That's you Spencer.

• 1:16:37Speaker 06

  South Dakota announced earlier this month that they are creating a new elk unit that will have an unlimited number of tags. Before we talk about that, though, we should look at the history of elk in the state, to kind of frame how we got here. Elk are native to damn near the entire lower 48. Phil has a map there for us that shows, this is from the US Forest Service, shows their historic range. Outside of Florida and a little bit of New England, elk touched damn near every state. For context, their footprint is very similar to the distribution of whitetail deer. Like, that's how much they crossed the entire continent.

• 1:17:11Steven Rinella?

  I'll tell you what I didn't know, this is a great graphic. What I didn't know is that they didn't like the Cascades.

• 1:17:16Speaker 06

  Hmm, yeah.

• 1:17:17Steven Rinella?

  They liked both sides.

• 1:17:18Speaker 07

  There's a big gap there.

• 1:17:19Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they didn't like the actual spine.

• 1:17:22Speaker 06

  Now, specific-

• 1:17:23Steven Rinella?

  No, the Sierra Nevada, sorry. Didn't like the Sierra Nevada.

• 1:17:26Speaker 06

  Cascades, I'd say that's up there, North Washington.

• 1:17:28Speaker 07

  Central Oregon.

• 1:17:30Speaker 06

  Specific to South Dakota, Manitoba elk are native to the whole state, as they are much of the Great Plains. West of there, starting in central Montana, central Wyoming, the Rocky Mountain elk. East of there, starting Minnesota, Iowa, are the eastern elk. Elk were extirpated from South Dakota in the late 1800s. It's thought the last one was killed there in 1888. The state started restocking them almost immediately, less than a couple decades later. And they got those elk from Yellowstone, Jackson Hole. And by 1928, South Dakota had an elk season again. So, you know, 30 years later, they were hunting them. Now, those restocking efforts were focused on the Black Hills, which is where about 85% of the state's herd lives today. There is a picture from Wind Cave National Park of an

• 1:18:15Speaker 06

  elk herd. If you're not familiar, the Black Hills are located in way western South Dakota. It's where Mount Rushmore is, just east of Devil's Tower in Wyoming. The Black Hills, they rise up out of the prairie. It's separate from the Rocky Mountains, and it's actually home to Black Elk Peak, which is the highest point east of the Rocky Mountains at 7,200 feet. The Black Hills are just like textbook elk habitat. There's about 8,000 of them that live there today. Uh, now, most of the bull tags there are considered once in a lifetime tags. In 2025, 42,000 hunters applied for 2,500 licenses. Actually, today, as we sit here, the archery, uh, draw happened and the rifle draw. So some folks are finding out that they just drew one of these lifetime tags. They just got their email.

• 1:19:00Steven Rinella?

  Congratulations.

• 1:19:01Speaker 06

  In 2025, 42,000 hunters applying for 2,500 licenses. Uh, even having dozens of preference points isn't good enough to guarantee a tag. Last year, in one of their more popular units, there were six applicants who had 27 preference points, and only one of those six drew a tag. Uh, that means those hunters had been applying since the 1990s.

• 1:19:22Steven Rinella?

  Talk about point creep.

• 1:19:22Speaker 06

  They still have to wait some more. We're looking at one of these draw tables right now. There were three guys with 28 points, and only one of them drew a tag. Uh, so, so you're up for a long wait there. Uh, harvest rates are always really high, though, because there's intention, intense management, uh, spreads out hunting pressure, limits licenses for bulls. Uh, again, that's specific to the Black Hills, where, where most of the states elk live. The other 15% of the elk are spread out across the prairie. Uh, and there's some very limited hunting that happens with those herds. Uh, most of those elk live on the west side of the Missouri River. Uh, the Missouri River kind of perfectly splits the state in half and actually plays a significant role in the state's wildlife management. When it comes to big game deer, turkeys, elk, even some of their waterfowl,

• 1:20:07Speaker 06

  uh, the state has kind of broadly created three distinct zones that they manage. Uh, there's the Black Hills, where all the elk live. Then there's West River, which is everything left of the Missouri River. That's not part of the Black Hills. And then there's East River, which is everything right of the Missouri River.

• 1:20:22Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:23Speaker 06

  Uh, when it comes to elk.

• 1:20:24Steven Rinella?

  It's easy to remember.

• 1:20:26Speaker 06

  Yeah, uh, when you're, when you're having like a conversation with another South Dakota, and it's like East River, West River, you know, it comes to like deer hunting where you grew up, uh, where you pheasant hunt, it's just like perfectly cuts the state in half, makes it very clean for, for managing game, uh, as well as just communicating about game. Now, when it comes to elk, uh, the Black Hills, uh, has those herds that we talked about. And then there's the West River where some sporadic populations live. Variety landscapes, but country, badlands, cedar draws, cattle pastures, prairie, ag, river bottoms. It's not all that different than what you'd find in eastern Montana, for example, or western Nebraska, where elk also live. There's about a half dozen West River units that give out some tags.

• 1:21:07Speaker 06

  And it's thought that there's a few thousand elk that live west of the Missouri River that are not in the Black Hills. Then there's East River. There are just a sprinkling of elk that exist East River. This is a trail cam photo I got three years ago, way eastern South Dakota, not, not even really close to the Missouri River, but they, they do exist there.

• 1:21:27Steven Rinella?

  Where are they coming out of?

• 1:21:29Speaker 06

  If you see one where I grew up in way eastern South Dakota, um, there would be equal chance that it came from western South Dakota or western Nebraska. Or it came from a high fence farm, somewhere in Minnesota, eastern South Dakota, just wandered off one day and got away. So this, this is a bull elk I got at a pinch point. I was bow hunting, I think in 2023. I also saw one on the hoof in 2017. Um, so it, it happens. It's a thing.

• 1:22:03Speaker 06

  The state doesn't provide any official numbers for the herds East River. There's just some guessing as to what, what their rate is, uh, but up until this year, if you were to shoot an elk East River, you'd be considered a poacher. You get fat fine. You lose your hunting rights. You'd just be labeled a straight up evil person by your fellow outdoorsman because you took one of the state's most coveted animals out of a range that is expanding to all on its own. That is no longer the case though in South Dakota because they are now giving out an unlimited number of out tags for everything east of the Missouri River besides tribal lands, which is its own thing.

• 1:22:38Steven Rinella?

  But they want them gone.

• 1:22:39Speaker 06

  They want them gone. They, they want to eliminate them.

• 1:22:41Steven Rinella?

  Cause of what?

• 1:22:42Speaker 07

  Agriculture.

• 1:22:44Speaker 06

  Agriculture. Yeah, we'll get to it. The new elk tag.

• 1:22:47Steven Rinella?

  Are they gonna kill all the deer too?

• 1:22:49Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:22:49Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:22:50Speaker 06

  But it's, I like. For now, they're safe. Uh huh. The new elk tag, it's created to eradicate the elk that live east of the Missouri River.

• 1:22:57Steven Rinella?

  Because when they eat something, it's different.

• 1:23:00Speaker 06

  Very different. Here's some quotes from the South Dakota Game, Fish and Parks reps about this new tag. Quote, elk are a fantastic big game animal that are welcome in every other part of the state. But the fact that, the fact is, we just can't tolerate having them in eastern South Dakota.

• 1:23:17Steven Rinella?

  Says who?

• 1:23:18Speaker 06

  Here's another quote from Director Tom Kershman. Growing the. Uh, he said this in the meeting where this was voted on, quote, "We have no intentions of managing elk on the prairie in the eastern part of the state." Uh, now during this brief process, the GFP has referenced that these elk are creating problems with landowners by eating crops and wrecking fences, uh, which is why they explicitly said they will not tolerate them. He's a picture in western South Dakota of a bull elk, uh, that is feasting. A little boring. Agriculture.

• 1:23:48Steven Rinella?

  Some bitch is like, add a blind.

• 1:23:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, he's, he's standing right in front of an elevated, I don't know, redneck blind. Uh, Legislative Committee voted four to two to allow this in a separate vote by the GFP commissioners. It's a group of eight appointed by the governor. They unanimously voted to approve this. So the, the GFP suits are all about this elk eradication plan. Uh, residents do not agree with him though. I posted a poll in a private Facebook group called the East River, South Dakota Hunting and Fishing, which is just what it sounds like. It's largely made up of South Dakota residents who like to hunt and fish east of the Missouri River. Uh, there are 17,000 people in this Facebook group. I asked, what do you think of the new unlimited East River elk tags? Do you approve, disapprove, or not sure?

• 1:24:32Speaker 06

  Uh, 323 people took this poll. 17% said that they approve. 73% said they disapprove and 10% said they're not sure. Uh, that means that more than seven out of 10 South Dakotans do not like this management.

• 1:24:46Steven Rinella?

  Are you sure that wasn't the Iran war?

• 1:24:48Speaker 06

  I haven't seen that talked about in the East River, South Dakota hunting.

• 1:24:52Steven Rinella?

  This is remarkably similar breakdown.

• 1:24:55Speaker 06

  It's a similar approval rate.

• 1:24:57Steven Rinella?

  Uh.

• 1:24:58Speaker 07

  Of the 17% that approved.

• 1:25:00Steven Rinella?

  It's indefensible. Sorry, go ahead.

• 1:25:03Speaker 07

  Of the 17% that approved, do they have access to a place to hunt elk?

• 1:25:07Speaker 06

  Uh huh.

• 1:25:08Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they're like, I've been seeing one.

• 1:25:10Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:25:10Steven Rinella?

  It's it's in it's indefensible.

• 1:25:12Speaker 06

  I'm I'm with you. I I agree with the 73%.

• 1:25:15Steven Rinella?

  It's native wildlife. It's like God put them there.

• 1:25:17Speaker 06

  I was expecting you, Steve, to do a gotcha and say, well, they're Rocky Mountain elk. So they're not actually native, but South Dakota in their elk management plan calls elk the biggest native uh deer that's hunted in the state. So they they consider, even though they're Rocky Mountain Rocky Mountain elk and not native to South Dakota, they call them a native animal.

• 1:25:37Speaker 07

  Well, I mean, the elk in Pennsylvania and Kentucky are Rocky Mountain elk, too.

• 1:25:41Speaker 06

  I I know, but I'm talking about.

• 1:25:41Steven Rinella?

  If they knew that it was all game farm escapes.

• 1:25:45Speaker 06

  It's not.

• 1:25:46Steven Rinella?

  I could see it. If you have elk, wild elk, walking in on their own four feet.

• 1:25:52Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:25:53Steven Rinella?

  Onto native habitat.

• 1:25:55Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 1:25:57Steven Rinella?

  That's a that's a no no.

• 1:26:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:26:00Steven Rinella?

  That's like a moral no no.

• 1:26:02Speaker 06

  Their main argument is that the elk are creating private land conflicts. Well, guess what? That happens in every state. Eastern Montana, Western Nebraska, Western North Dakota, Eastern Wyoming, Eastern Colorado, Central Pennsylvania.

• 1:26:14Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, you'd have to kill every elk in the country.

• 1:26:16Speaker 06

  And just across the Missouri River in South Dakota, the same thing happens. And this is something.

• 1:26:20Steven Rinella?

  Deer are a pain in the ass, depending on your perspective.

• 1:26:23Speaker 06

  Totally.

• 1:26:23Steven Rinella?

  You hit them with your car. That's a pain in the ass. They eat your crops. That's a pain in the ass. I don't know. Ticks.

• 1:26:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:26:30Steven Rinella?

  Whatever. You should kill all everything.

• 1:26:32Speaker 06

  It it feels like.

• 1:26:33Steven Rinella?

  Ducks can be a pain in the ass.

• 1:26:34Speaker 06

  Maybe this is where they would have landed eventually, but they skipped like 20 steps to get here. You know, they went from, hey, we have elk expanding all on their own to we don't want them here. So we just have to eliminate them.

• 1:26:47Steven Rinella?

  Turkeys can be a pain. They should kill all the turkeys. Turkeys can be a pain in the ass.

• 1:26:50Speaker 06

  Yeah, there there's hazing programs. There's depredation tags. Uh, there's reimbursements given to landowners who carry that burden of feeding elk. Uh, there are reimbursements given to landowners that allow elk hunting. These are all tools that South Dakota currently uses when they manage their elk. But for some reason, they've they've gone away from all of those for this East River herd and they're going straight to, we need to get rid of them.

• 1:27:11Speaker 07

  Is there other state that I don't maybe you looked into this, maybe is there other state? States that feel the same way about elk like Kansas or.

• 1:27:19Speaker 06

  Well, Yanni brought it up that like in Texas.

• 1:27:21Speaker 07

  Uh, yeah, Texas.

• 1:27:23Speaker 06

  I, I agree. Um, I, I.

• 1:27:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, but Texas turned around and made native, made a, made native elk non-native.

• 1:27:30Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:27:30Speaker 06

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 1:27:32Speaker 07

  I think, uh, Arkhan, a lot of their reintroduced states do have zones of like tolerance, kind of like we do for the bison. So it's like outside of here, then there's way more liberal tags or, you know, various ways of.

• 1:27:44Steven Rinella?

  Understood.

• 1:27:45Speaker 07

  I think it's, it's easy to say, oh, let's just have them there, but you have to remember that it costs a lot of money to manage these animals. And when you have a new population like that, it's like, if all of a sudden you said, oh, I have the money, I will pay for it to ma- for you to manage these animals. They'd probably be more forthcoming.

• 1:28:04Steven Rinella?

  How much is it costing them?

• 1:28:06Speaker 06

  Uh, and, and again, like they.

• 1:28:08Speaker 07

  Oh, I think a lot. I mean, just that, well, cause it's, it's the ag depredation, right? Like that's where like.

• 1:28:15Steven Rinella?

  But, but the elk west of the river are eating crops.

• 1:28:18Speaker 07

  They are, but it's been like socially accepted there.

• 1:28:22Speaker 06

  Uh, I, it's, it's like the, the West River Prairie Unit, that's like kind of new as well. I mean, like if I were to talk to my dad or my father in law, that came along in their lifetime and they're just like cool with, you know, having elk west river that, that.

• 1:28:36Speaker 07

  And, and.

• 1:28:36Speaker 06

  Landowners deal with.

• 1:28:37Speaker 07

  Is it a thing where the damage is happening now, or they're just trying to get ahead of it as before that population?

• 1:28:44Steven Rinella?

  Here's what's going on. I don't know this, but I know. You know what I'm saying? You ever have a thing where you know, but you don't know?

• 1:28:49Speaker 07

  Well, I, I, all the.

• 1:28:50Steven Rinella?

  There's some guy, there's a well-heeled guy.

• 1:28:53Speaker 06

  A hundred percent.

• 1:28:54Steven Rinella?

  There's a well-heeled guy that has the ear of his local politicians.

• 1:28:59Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:28:59Steven Rinella?

  And he's down there and the local politician really looks up to him because he's like the salt of the earth and he wishes he was like that guy, right? And that guy's like, I don't want these son of a bitch and elk running around.

• 1:29:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Steven Rinella?

  And the guy's like, well, I'm tough too. I'm a big tough guy, rancher guy. And so he's like, we should, we'll kill them all.

• 1:29:18Speaker 06

  When

• 1:29:19Steven Rinella?

  You'll see how tough I am.

• 1:29:20Speaker 06

  When they reference

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:29:21Speaker 06

  The East River population of elk, they say they mostly exist between Pierre and Chamberlain. Pierre is the state capital. Um, and so it's it exactly what you said, Steve. That's what people suspect is that like there is um, someone who has the ear of Pierre. There is a donor um, who would like will get to benefit from this.

• 1:29:39Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Or he just wants to be able, when they show up, he wants to be able to shoot him because it's big bulls.

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's got big bulls hanging out next to his line.

• 1:29:46Speaker 07

  My argument.

• 1:29:47Steven Rinella?

  If you do it quick, because we gotta keep the show moving.

• 1:29:49Speaker 07

  In Wisconsin. I was talking to some of our neighbors who experienced elk depredation of their crops last year.

• 1:29:55Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:29:56Speaker 07

  And a couple of counties to the north, it happens all the time and they pay out the farmers. It's no big deal. So they've been letting like this population is growing. It's come down into the county where we have some land in. There, the sertle, the soil is extremely more fertile than two counties to the north. So there's a much higher production per acre.

• 1:30:17Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 1:30:17Speaker 07

  And so the payout that they're having to do for this, for the same amount of acreage, when an elk comes in and and kills, you know, one acre, it can be tenfold.

• 1:30:28Speaker 07

  The dough.

• 1:30:30Steven Rinella?

  But extend the logic.

• 1:30:33Steven Rinella?

  All wildlife is a pain in the ass.

• 1:30:35Speaker 07

  I understand that.

• 1:30:37Steven Rinella?

  Geese eat crops.

• 1:30:39Speaker 07

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:41Steven Rinella?

  So if the logic holds, they should cease to exist. It's always been true

• 1:30:49Steven Rinella?

  of everything. If the fact that something causes problems means it shouldn't be around and you extend that logic out, it's silent spring.

• 1:31:00Steven Rinella?

  All wildlife is a pain in the ass. From someone's perspective, I have a thing living in my wall right now.

• 1:31:08Steven Rinella?

  Whatever that is, I'm not gonna, I believe it might be a pine squirrel. I'm not gonna be like, they all need to die.

• 1:31:14Speaker 07

  You might have a mouse soon.

• 1:31:15Steven Rinella?

  No, it's too big. This thing is big.

• 1:31:19Speaker 07

  No, I'm saying that mouse.

• 1:31:20Steven Rinella?

  Oh, he'll be pretty soon.

• 1:31:21Speaker 06

  I've got a couple more things.

• 1:31:22Steven Rinella?

  They're gonna hang out of that mouse.

• 1:31:24Speaker 06

  To hit on.

• 1:31:24Steven Rinella?

  About getting out of that thing.

• 1:31:25Speaker 06

  Couple more things real quick.

• 1:31:26Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 1:31:27Speaker 06

  I, I feel like typically it's kind of a lazy argument when wildlife management be like, we should just relocate them. If there's like a problem bear, we should move it. You know, if there's like elk are causing crop damage, we should, we should move it. From the 1970s to the 1990s in a 20 year span, uh, South Dakota relocated over 700 elk. So this is like something they've done in the past. They're very capable of putting these things in a trailer.

• 1:31:50Steven Rinella?

  Every one of those is thousands of dollars.

• 1:31:52Speaker 06

  Okay, but like, uh, that's a better alternative, I think, than just like getting rid of these things. Make, make it all gone.

• 1:31:59Steven Rinella?

  I disagree. I want to move on, but I disagree.

• 1:32:01Speaker 06

  But then relocating them. I'm saying the state's done it before.

• 1:32:04Speaker 07

  Having trouble with the new format of the show. There's this drive to keep moving.

• 1:32:08Steven Rinella?

  Yes.

• 1:32:08Speaker 07

  But this is great.

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  That's the episode title today, Phil.

• 1:32:11Speaker 06

  Just let them hunt the damn things, but don't make it unlimited.

• 1:32:14Steven Rinella?

  Give us some tags. Just keep moving. You got anything else?

• 1:32:16Speaker 06

  Go to my final image, Phil. Would you hurry up, Spencer? Uh, the state record typical elk was killed a few years ago. It grossed or it scored 392 gross.

• 1:32:26Steven Rinella?

  God.

• 1:32:26Speaker 06

  383 net, net. And guess what? That elk was living on private land in western South Dakota on the prairie. Like this is a bull that just on the other side of the river spent all of his life or most of his life living on private ground. And, and South Dakota is very happy to manage these elk. The ranchers deal with them and we produced a state record bull.

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  And a very happy man.

• 1:32:47Speaker 07

  That guy does look very happy.

• 1:32:48Steven Rinella?

  Sense. You could, you produced the state record. You could have a spike be the state record.

• 1:32:55Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:56Steven Rinella?

  It'd have to be, we produced a world record bull.

• 1:32:58Speaker 06

  Well, we produced a 383.

• 1:33:00Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, that makes sense. But like, you see what I'm saying, right?

• 1:33:03Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:33:03Steven Rinella?

  I don't want to spend too much time on it.

• 1:33:05Speaker 02

  I'd like to move on.

• 1:33:06Speaker 07

  Speaking of elk.

• 1:33:09Speaker 07

  I got another story about elk.

• 1:33:10Speaker 06

  We need to manage them like a game animal, not a nuisance animal.

• 1:33:13Steven Rinella?

  Man.

• 1:33:13Speaker 06

  Done.

• 1:33:14Steven Rinella?

  Done. I'm gonna send a letter of complaint to the South Dakota Tourism Board.

• 1:33:19Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 1:33:20Speaker 07

  Uh, chronic wasting disease. Well, before I get to the national elk refuge, Delaware just became 37th state with, with CWD.

• 1:33:28Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:33:29Speaker 07

  Which leads into what I'm going to talk about. Chronic wasting disease was just detected on, like officially detected on the national. National Elk Refuge near Jackson, Wyoming. Um, if you don't know what the National Elk Refuge is, it was established in nineteen twelve near Jackson, Wyoming after, uh, severe winters and overhunting decimated the, the elk herd in the, in that area in the late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds. Kind of the same story that was happening everywhere.

• 1:33:56Speaker 06

  It's where South Dakota got some of their elk.

• 1:33:58Speaker 07

  Yeah. Uh, it's a, it's a federally managed, uh, wildlife refuge. Con- Congress created it to provide winter habitat and do supplemental feeding.

• 1:34:10Steven Rinella?

  Stay, stay close to your mic there, Brody.

• 1:34:12Speaker 07

  To avoid, uh, you know, having that whole herd starved to death. Um, ultimately, it became the largest wintering ground for elk in North America and on average, anywhere from eight to eleven thousand elk spend the winter there. And it's become a major tourist attraction.

• 1:34:30Steven Rinella?

  Just to bring it home and to Spencer's deal. Part of the current justification for the elk refuge is that it, that it reduces, cause they do supplemental, I'm gonna get to that.

• 1:34:40Speaker 07

  Oh yeah, all that stuff.

• 1:34:41Steven Rinella?

  Sorry, man, that's kinda.

• 1:34:42Speaker 07

  It's alright, it's alright.

• 1:34:43Steven Rinella?

  Jump in the gun.

• 1:34:44Speaker 07

  Um, before we get. Steve, it's hard.

• 1:34:47Speaker 06

  I'd like to move on.

• 1:34:48Speaker 07

  Before we, uh, before we get to the CWD end of this thing. Um, the, the National Elk Refuge is federally managed. Why, the state of Wyoming also has twenty-one other elk feed grounds in the northwestern part of the state. Now, the, it's the same reasoning, uh, to have these things, prevent large-scale winter starvation, maintain large elk populations and associated hunting opportunity, reduce conflict with ranch, ranch lands like haystacks, livestock feed, reducing transmission of brucellosis between elk and cattle, and to support tourism and wildlife viewing.

• 1:35:30Speaker 07

  Um, people like CWD, like scientists have been warning about these feed grounds forever as far as what CWD, as far as CWD is concerned. Um, but the state of Wyoming has kinda painted themselves into a corner with this supplemental feeding. Um, and they. acknowledge that without these feed grounds, Northwest Wyoming would likely support fewer elk and the distribution of those elk would would shift substantially, they'd go other places.

• 1:36:02Speaker 07

  But again, like researchers have been warning about this because on these feedlots, elk feed nose to nose, could, yeah, we've got it up. They feed nose to nose along feed lines and they're they're concentrated like unnaturally and unnaturally dense concentrations during the winter. Additionally, the prions from CWD, they accumulate in the soil. And elk are repeatedly using the same contaminated grounds year after year. So

• 1:36:35Steven Rinella?

  just preons.

• 1:36:36Speaker 07

  preons, prions.

• 1:36:37Steven Rinella?

  The guy that invented the word says preons.

• 1:36:40Speaker 07

  Okay, that's good enough for me.

• 1:36:42Steven Rinella?

  Hufflefinger told me.

• 1:36:43Speaker 07

  Um, man, more Hufflefinger.

• 1:36:46Speaker 07

  So in May of this year, wildlife officials like confirmed the first known CWD positive elk on the National Elk Refuge. It was an adult cow that was euthanized. CWD had been detected in the broader like Jackson area or surrounding

• 1:37:09Speaker 07

  the refuge in 2020, but this was the first time it was detected like on the actual elk refuge. On other Wyoming feed grounds, there's 21 of them, but Scab Creek, Dell Creek, Horse Creek, Black Butte, Muddy Creek. CWD's been detected on all of those feed grounds within the last couple of years.

• 1:37:35Speaker 07

  So like, you've got this situation where it's like pretty obvious that concentrating these elk in small areas, a bunch of them over the winter and feeding them supplementally, like artificially feeding them is causing a problem with CWD.

• 1:37:50Steven Rinella?

  Well, you don't know that because you have CWD, like Montana doesn't do feed.

• 1:37:57Steven Rinella?

  Montana doesn't allow bait.

• 1:37:58Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:37:58Steven Rinella?

  You can't bait in the state and the state doesn't feed. But states got CWD popping up all over the place.

• 1:38:06Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:38:07Steven Rinella?

  So I'm just saying, it's like you, you, you can't say that the only place that it's occurring.

• 1:38:14Speaker 06

  I didn't say it's the only place.

• 1:38:15Steven Rinella?

  And I'll be saying it's leading to problems. We don't know. You don't really know. You can, you can guess. But where is it coming from in all the other places?

• 1:38:23Speaker 06

  Well, I think the, the safest guess, right? Like we can throw the origin out if it's here now. And this continues.

• 1:38:31Steven Rinella?

  Yes.

• 1:38:31Speaker 06

  This is going to be a breeding situation for the spread of CWD.

• 1:38:36Steven Rinella?

  I would expect to see, yes, I agree with you there. I would expect to see a higher rate of transmission, but I'm saying like, I, it's not, I don't think it's birthing. It's not birthing the disease.

• 1:38:48Speaker 06

  It's not, but it's contribu-, it's likely going to contribute to the spread of the disease at a much faster rate. They're worried about more persistent environmental contamination. So in the soil and, and vegetation, things like that. They certainly think it's going to cause higher term, higher long-term infection rates. Could lead to increased mortality and long-term population declines in some, some elk herds.

• 1:39:15Speaker 07

  Plus it's got close proximity to high fence operations that have terrible records of

• 1:39:20Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 1:39:21Speaker 07

  keeping animals within the high fence.

• 1:39:23Speaker 06

  So like, there's been, Wyoming is not going to close these feedlots. They're just not going to do it.

• 1:39:30Steven Rinella?

  Why?

• 1:39:31Speaker 06

  Because

• 1:39:32Steven Rinella?

  Well, there's only been thirty years.

• 1:39:34Speaker 06

  They need to, they're, they're kind of in a situation where they need to maintain these elk numbers, right? There's an expectation for it. Um, so the, the plan is expanded surveillance and testing. Having hunters turn in more animals, increase monitoring, things like that.

• 1:39:52Steven Rinella?

  Okay. So then you just know, okay.

• 1:39:55Speaker 06

  Yeah. They're just like, I'm just telling you, that's their plan.

• 1:39:59Steven Rinella?

  No, no, but that's not a plan. That's not, that's just like being like, hey, uh, you know, be like, hey, you know, my kid's dying of a fever. Oh no, I'm gonna keep taking this temperature.

• 1:40:08Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 1:40:09Speaker 02

  Just eradicate them.

• 1:40:10Steven Rinella?

  I'll just keep taking his temp.

• 1:40:12Speaker 07

  The the state's known that this was like an inevitable situation forever. And so it's like, what did the state, has there been any?

• 1:40:21Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, but you're going to keep taking his temp, but are you bringing him to the doctor?

• 1:40:25Speaker 07

  Right.

• 1:40:26Steven Rinella?

  No, it's monitoring temp.

• 1:40:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, they they don't have an answer. Their their their answer is to maintain feeding operations and do what they can to slow disease transmission, whatever that means. Um, and

• 1:40:39Speaker 07

  So long as we don't quit feeding.

• 1:40:42Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's like they had.

• 1:40:43Steven Rinella?

  They're gonna put up a sign, please elk.

• 1:40:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:40:46Steven Rinella?

  Don't go super close to each other while eating the food we put out for you. I I under, listen, I just want to clarify. I totally

• 1:40:53Speaker 06

  You're coming at me pretty hard.

• 1:40:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:56Speaker 02

  I was hoping you'd have a better plan.

• 1:40:58Steven Rinella?

  I'm not coming at you hard. I don't know the answer. I don't know that the answer is to stop doing it. It's just, I don't know. I I seem like I'm like, I want to clarify. I'm just a curious guy sitting here. I don't know the right answer.

• 1:41:11Speaker 06

  I think, and from my perspective, the answer would be to maybe slowly wean them off of this situation. They starved to death if they just quit feeding them?

• 1:41:19Steven Rinella?

  Some would.

• 1:41:20Speaker 06

  Some would for sure. I mean, you've got like an unnaturally high concentration of animals.

• 1:41:25Steven Rinella?

  It'd be like if we quit making GMOs, you're gonna have tons of humans starved to death. Eventually, you won't need them anymore.

• 1:41:31Speaker 06

  Think about a severe winter where there would be natural winter kill like around here.

• 1:41:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:37Speaker 06

  Down there, they're like loving life. Doesn't matter how severe the winter is. Brody has some images here that are very real, but they look like Photoshop because it's just such a ridiculous amount of elk in one space. Yep.

• 1:41:51Speaker 06

  There there have been efforts, lawsuits to try and get these feed lots closed, but they they've failed. So, you know,

• 1:42:00Steven Rinella?

  Does that come from hunters or does it come from animal rights people?

• 1:42:03Speaker 06

  Well, I, I think it's more along the, the animal rights end of things, but I'd have to look into it.

• 1:42:08Speaker 07

  No, I mean, on this disease thing, like, because Idaho feeds on occasion and in certain areas and, and they have different. They have feeding programs that, that started when elk from Yellowstone and Jackson Hole were brought to Idaho to reestablish herds.

• 1:42:28Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 1:42:29Speaker 07

  That are, they're still going.

• 1:42:30Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 1:42:31Speaker 07

  Um, their argument though is like, this pulls

• 1:42:38Speaker 07

  elk on their migration route away from like population centers and, and avoids some human conflict. So it's not just purely the food aspect. It's, it's like manipulating where animals go in the winter.

• 1:42:50Steven Rinella?

  Understand.

• 1:42:51Speaker 06

  Sure. That helps to prevent conflicts with ranching operations.

• 1:42:55Speaker 07

  Yep. Yeah. But, I mean, hunters have been saying,

• 1:43:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:43:01Speaker 07

  this is going to bring disease to the herd.

• 1:43:04Speaker 06

  Some hunters, but

• 1:43:05Speaker 07

  For a long time.

• 1:43:06Speaker 06

  I think there's also, I mean, say Wyoming says it too. It's like, we're sustaining these large elk populations and that sustains great hunting opportunities.

• 1:43:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But like, do you want a lot of burger that you're paranoid about? Or less burger that you're not paranoid about?

• 1:43:23Speaker 07

  There is an unbelievable amount of elk in that country. It is wild.

• 1:43:27Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah. So that's where we're at.

• 1:43:29Speaker 07

  Not during feeding season.

• 1:43:30Speaker 06

  It was bound to happen and it did is basically where we're at.

• 1:43:34Steven Rinella?

  Thank you, Brody.

• 1:43:35Speaker 07

  Yep. Yep.

• 1:43:35Speaker 03

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• 1:44:46Speaker 03

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• 1:45:08Speaker 03

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• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  Back on Randall's weekly bad stuff happening, public lands beat. Today, we were going to talk about the rescinding of the public lands rule. Then we moved on to certified public lands transfer guy confirmed as BLM director. Then we're going to talk about the House bill to repeal the roadless rule, which goes to committee on Thursday, but got another bad idea to cover. And this one is a bill, it's a proposed bill that's originating in Republican Senator Bill Cassidy's office to transfer roughly 24% of the Kissatchee National Forest to Louisiana's Grant Parish, which is Louisiana equivalent of a county.

• 1:46:07Speaker 02

  Specifically, the land would go to the local school board and the police jury, which again, there's all kinds of different names in Louisiana for things, but that's basically the county commissioners. And the, the police jury, to their credit, immediately voiced its opposition to the bill because they saw how deeply unpopular it was. Again, this is just a draft bill. As far as I know, it hasn't been introduced. And I always think that's important when you're talking about legislation to look at where it is. Cause you'll see, you know, you'll read headlines that say like, the, the Democrats in whatever want to ban pants, or the Republicans want to do this. But it's oftentimes just some whack job who's written a bill in their office and it

• 1:46:49Speaker 02

  has no, you know, chance of passing. So just that disclaimer out there. But the, the bill, this bill would amend.

• 1:47:00Steven Rinella?

  I do, I do love a bill to ban pants, just to see how, just, I love that.

• 1:47:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And then you can go back, you can go back to your wackadoo donors and tell them, you know, I'm fighting the fight against pants. Right? But this.

• 1:47:14Steven Rinella?

  Big shorts.

• 1:47:14Speaker 02

  This bill would amend the Internal Revenue Code.

• 1:47:18Steven Rinella?

  Oh, big shorts law.

• 1:47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. I wasn't even thinking about like alternative, this would build, support alternative lower half of your body garments. I was thinking of just bare ass. Yeah. But no, I didn't. That's why it's important to have like a very careful legislative staff. But this, this would, this would direct, it would amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 and direct the Secretary of Agriculture to forfeit all rights, title and interests to all portions of the Khasachy National Forest contained within the borders of Grant Parish, which is about 140,000 acres of public lands. This, so the bill would just say that goes to the county. They would also get the buildings, the vehicles, the equipments and all the records of the Forest Service.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  The, the, I guess the justification for this is that Bill Cassidy claims that this is, uh, the National Forest is hindering economic development in Grant Parish.

• 1:48:15Steven Rinella?

  But he just got his nuts slapped by Trump so bad.

• 1:48:17Speaker 02

  He did. He did. So I think this, I think this hit the headlines like the day after.

• 1:48:23Steven Rinella?

  That's why everybody knows who he is now.

• 1:48:25Speaker 07

  So he, his logic behind this is economic development.

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:48:30Speaker 07

  For that land.

• 1:48:31Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And, and hat tip to the Louisiana Wildlife Federation, kind of rang the alarm about this. And then I, I saw the story from Travis Hall at Field and Street. He does a great job of covering all kinds of public land stuff. But the Louisiana Wildlife Federation issued a statement. The, I mean, one thing that they point to that's interesting is they're tucking this public land transfer into a big tax and economic development bill. And so the Louisiana Wildlife Federation is pointing like, what you're doing here is reducing the visibility of public lands, policy decision making by tucking it into this other, you know, like.

• 1:49:10Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like burying the pants ban, like burying the pants ban and some complex things. So some guy one day realizes in the bottom of it, it says, oh, and no more pants.

• 1:49:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, no more pants, no more pants. So, you know, you gotta read these things carefully, but um, they, they have raised the, rang the alarm, raised the red flag over this. Um, I don't necessarily know where this is going, if at all, because it's a very, very early stage. But again, it's just like, man, these, like, there are people out there who want to do this stuff. It's not a boogeyman. It's not a, it's not a, you know, far off, like, there's people hidden away in back rooms who are never actually gonna do this stuff. Like, his office is working on this. Um, and this, as, as far as I understand, just from reading about it, like, this seems like a, a, a a treasure of our public land system. It was clear cut and then

• 1:50:04Speaker 02

  established in the 1930s under the Weeks Act, where we get a lot of our eastern national forests and it's, it's got a lot of, um, longleaf pine, a lot of wildlife, uh, there's, there's fishing, hunting, camping. It's like a prime recreation destination in the central part of the state.

• 1:50:23Speaker 06

  When the US Mint's did a quarter dedicated to the Cassachi National Forest, all they put on there is a wild turkey.

• 1:50:29Speaker 07

  Yeah, I brought that quarter in one day.

• 1:50:31Steven Rinella?

  That's the most Spencer thing I've ever heard in my life.

• 1:50:33Speaker 02

  This is, uh, one of the places in.

• 1:50:35Speaker 07

  I gave that quarter to you. You still got it?

• 1:50:37Speaker 02

  Louisiana, where, uh, you know how you can never kill whitetails on public land in Louisiana?

• 1:50:42Steven Rinella?

  No. I didn't know that.

• 1:50:44Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. It's a, it's a thing many people talk about.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  And they have, I, from what I read briefly, it's like known for big deer. It's known for big bucks.

• 1:50:52Speaker 06

  Does Cassidy have a history of?

• 1:50:55Speaker 02

  Not that I know of, not that I know of. It's, it seems like it's kind of out of left field. I mean, he's really known as, I believe he's a physician, and so he's really, a lot of his controversy lately has been his relationship with, like RFK, voted to confirm RFK, and then he's come out against a lot of the stuff that's happening over there, but.

• 1:51:15Steven Rinella?

  I appreciate the ma- I appreciate his maverick, nonpartisan streak. I appreciate it.

• 1:51:22Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:51:22Steven Rinella?

  The ki- kind of going your own way and not taking, not taking, uh, you know, not listening to the boss man for everything you do. I appreciate that, but this is dumb.

• 1:51:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:31Steven Rinella?

  He knows it's dumb.

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  And it's, and a lot of the, the guys who are demonstrating this nonpartisan, not bowing to the boss behavior are

• 1:51:39Speaker 07

  the ones that are out of a job.

• 1:51:41Speaker 02

  Losing their primaries, so.

• 1:51:42Steven Rinella?

  A big picture, like, you know, we have the Forest Service overhaul. They're gonna be closing research stations in Louisiana. The, the roadless rule, as I said, is there's now a House bill to, to rescind it, um.

• 1:51:55Speaker 07

  Not only rescind it, but make it mandatory that we, the people, the taxpayer, pay for new roads.

• 1:52:02Steven Rinella?

  Yep. Yep, so just, there's, there's, uh, arrows coming at the National Forest from all sides right now.

• 1:52:10Speaker 07

  One of the last things I did last night, it was probably 10:00 PM, I called, uh, Zinke and Downing, left them a message about that. Nice. Uh, because I received yet another email from BHA. I was like, alright, I'm doing it!

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  You shouldn't be checking your phone at late at night, honest? It's bad for your sleep.

• 1:52:28Steven Rinella?

  No, it's working.

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:52:30Speaker 06

  I don't understand what his incentive is to do anything now, like.

• 1:52:34Steven Rinella?

  No, I think this'll, yeah, this'll go away. Still fun to talk about. So we can do a good news story when he, when it doesn't go anywhere.

• 1:52:42Speaker 02

  That's true. That's true.

• 1:52:45Speaker 07

  Okay, reporting from the Michigan.

• 1:52:47Speaker 02

  Deer Desk, we're really bouncing around the country today.

• 1:52:50Steven Rinella?

  That's intentional.

• 1:52:53Speaker 02

  Good. It's a programming decision. This one, I figure is gonna be a real challenge because you and I have so much attachment, nostalgia to this story that uh.

• 1:53:06Steven Rinella?

  Not me, I grew up north of the line, dude.

• 1:53:09Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:53:10Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 1:53:10Speaker 02

  Exactly. Which is why I feel like you're gonna have to weigh in. North side. So, big news out of Michigan. It's becoming a one buck state and has eliminated eliminated their southern shotgun zone, meaning the entire state is now open to rifle use for deer hunting. So for those that you don't know, you can throw up our little map there. And uh, this, I took this from uh, Onyx, um, thanks guys. But uh, uh, zone one, there's the upper peninsula and uh, you can use a rifle up there when I was a kid. In the lower peninsula, you can use a rifle above that line that cuts through the middle where Steve was. Below that line, we had to use shotguns.

• 1:53:53Speaker 02

  Reason being, when I, when I grew up, the reason being for that, they always told us is because it's a highly, more highly populated area. And if you had a real rifle, high powered rifle, and you're shooting at deer, you're more likely to shoot out of the woods, across the county road and into someone's house.

• 1:54:10Speaker 06

  We got the same rule right here in the bow.

• 1:54:12Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, they put a hole through old lady Burns's house or something, you know?

• 1:54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, I asked uh, Brett Rudolph, who's Michigan's deer elk and moose management specialist.

• 1:54:24Steven Rinella?

  Hold on, their deer specialist is named Rudolph?

• 1:54:26Speaker 02

  I know, I didn't bring that up with him, but uh.

• 1:54:28Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, I would have had a very hard time not bringing that up, but.

• 1:54:33Speaker 02

  I, I didn't want to take too much of his time.

• 1:54:35Steven Rinella?

  Even if I didn't bring it up, I still would have said, uh, huh.

• 1:54:39Speaker 07

  You always know, you know when he has a good idea.

• 1:54:44Speaker 06

  Better name than heifer finger.

• 1:54:46Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:54:47Speaker 06

  To be a deer biologist.

• 1:54:48Speaker 02

  Ouch, ouch, ouch. Um. Here comes an email. Not only.

• 1:54:54Speaker 07

  Uh, was it for the safety thing, but that rule was implemented back when we didn't have as many deer.

• 1:55:01Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I didn't know that. That was part of the motivation.

• 1:55:03Speaker 07

  Yeah. So part of the motivation was like, hey, so that every deer that comes out on the, you know, back crop field doesn't get whacked. Let's limit weapons a little bit. So you're, back then we were limited to 50 yards. Now shotgun shoot 200 yards.

• 1:55:19Steven Rinella?

  Um, well, they went straight wall cartridge.

• 1:55:21Speaker 07

  Right. And so recently, um, and a few, a few years ago, Michigan, along with other states too, allowed straight wall cartridges, which is like inching towards going to high powered, but not quite. Again, Brent told me, he's like, yeah, we actually don't have data that proves that using high powered rifle cartridges is any less safe than, than using the, the shotguns. Um, so as a move to.

• 1:55:49Steven Rinella?

  But it's kind of like, you know, like Bob Dylan said, I don't need a weatherman to tell away the wind blows. Meaning you might not have data, but come on.

• 1:56:00Speaker 06

  Plus I think you can also make rules like that to keep the people that aren't hunters, like to kind of pacify them. Be like, sure.

• 1:56:08Steven Rinella?

  But of course it does. Cause imagine the extreme. Imagine you made an infinity, an infinity round. It just went around the world and around the world and around the world. It's going to hit something.

• 1:56:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't think it'd make it around the world once.

• 1:56:22Steven Rinella?

  No, I think it hit something well before that. Yeah.

• 1:56:26Speaker 07

  So back then, they didn't, they didn't want to kill, uh,

• 1:56:30Speaker 02

  Clip a twig.

• 1:56:30Speaker 07

  People or too many deer.

• 1:56:32Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:32Speaker 07

  Now Michigan is, we've covered this. I think it was, was it last year or two years ago? That they wrote a letter to Michigan's sports people and said, folks, you guys have to kill does. They didn't do it.

• 1:56:47Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:56:48Speaker 07

  So this is a, a step towards making it easier. They're hoping it's small incremental, but a way to like less barriers, right? You don't have to have another's, you know, a shotgun that shoots slugs to shoot.

• 1:57:00Speaker 06

  Shoot a deer, right? You just have your thirty ought six because you hunt somewhere where you can use that. Well, no, all those people are gonna have to go out and buy rifles now.

• 1:57:08Steven Rinella?

  I got a, I got a text message from Guy Zuck the other morning.

• 1:57:12Speaker 07

  Pump up that.

• 1:57:13Steven Rinella?

  He said he's getting out the old thirty, thirty ought six and he says, you've never seen a run on ammo like you're gonna see now.

• 1:57:23Speaker 07

  That's amazing.

• 1:57:23Speaker 06

  He's right. He's right. Um, so yeah, I think that, uh, that, that's, uh, it's a good thing. It's like simplifying the whole thing.

• 1:57:31Steven Rinella?

  I support it. I support it.

• 1:57:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:57:34Steven Rinella?

  Uh, but what's funny about it is because I always thought it was a safety issue and it's not like there's less houses now than when I was a kid.

• 1:57:40Speaker 06

  Definitely not.

• 1:57:41Steven Rinella?

  So, but hearing that it was an efficacy issue as well, trying to reduce efficacy, I see. But I also think that it, it felt, uh, unnecessary.

• 1:57:51Speaker 06

  Yeah. It was a big thing for me when we used to then go over to, and hunt Wisconsin when I used to actually get to hunt with a bolt action rifle. It was like, it was very exciting. Yeah, that's, that's why we drove to Kentucky. Right. Cause you guys were a shotgun state. Yeah. Ohio is going to come back into my reporting here shortly for the, for the second part.

• 1:58:12Steven Rinella?

  Lovely.

• 1:58:13Speaker 06

  Um, so if you guys don't have any further questions about, uh, being able to use a rifle across the state of Michigan, I'll move on.

• 1:58:19Steven Rinella?

  No, if you're in southern, here's the, if you're in southern Michigan, it's game on this fall.

• 1:58:23Speaker 06

  What's the reception?

• 1:58:23Steven Rinella?

  It could be way across old lady Burns's field and you can still shoot.

• 1:58:27Speaker 06

  I'd like to move forward to the part about Ohio.

• 1:58:29Speaker 07

  Well, I think valid, uh, info here too, just it's not particular to this, but it is in the context of Michigan. Michigan is one of the states where, uh, big game hunting is on the decline. Fewer licensed deer hunters or fewer people hunting deer.

• 1:58:46Speaker 06

  I would like to know how Mitch Trumpeala feels about this.

• 1:58:48Steven Rinella?

  He's not gonna tell you.

• 1:58:49Speaker 06

  Is he zone two or zone three? He's zone two.

• 1:58:52Steven Rinella?

  He's zone two. You know what I heard? I heard a rumor the other day. Now I want to just.

• 1:58:59Steven Rinella?

  I'm not trafficking in rumors, dude.

• 1:59:01Speaker 06

  Yeah. Okay. Another big change. This one's going to go into effect in 2027. Some folks thought it was going to go into effect this year. It's not the case, but in 2027, Michigan is going to a one buck, uh, limit.

• 1:59:16Steven Rinella?

  Just capped one buck.

• 1:59:17Speaker 06

  One buck.

• 1:59:18Steven Rinella?

  How many bucks are you allowed there now?

• 1:59:20Speaker 06

  Two.

• 1:59:20Steven Rinella?

  Oh.

• 1:59:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:59:22Steven Rinella?

  It's a 50% decline.

• 1:59:24Speaker 06

  They're offering up two different licenses. Um, this is for the lower peninsula. The, the upper peninsula.

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  But nothing changes. I I didn't write down the details of that, but whatever the rules were up there, they're staying the same. Lower Peninsula, though, now you can buy, if you are so cheap that you can only afford a single deer license. You can buy, you can buy one that's a buck only tag and it's for one antler deer with an antler point restriction of three points on one side.

• 1:59:55Speaker 02

  The other license that they're offering for the Lower Peninsula is a combo. And that's one antler deer of any size and one antlerless deer. They're hoping that, and this is definitely a hundred percent, Brent said, it's like, it helps revenue. That they will buy the more expensive combo in the, because they want to have that option to not have to shoot an antler point restricted buck.

• 2:00:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, again, this came about, uh, there's, there's, there was a surge of, of the local hunting community. And, and again, they, every, people that I talked to, mostly Mark Canyon and Brent Rudolph feel like. It's a small subset of the hunting community, but like the quality deer management, more people that are into shooting bucks have been like raising a stink. About like, hey, like, let's change something so that we can get a better, you know, age class of bucks rolling around in Michigan. And this was proposed. Other states around, like Ohio, uh, Indiana, uh, can, was Kentucky one too?

• 2:01:04Speaker 02

  Can't remember now, but definitely Ohio and Indiana have gone that way and it has helped their, um, their.

• 2:01:11Speaker 06

  Well, Pennsylvania is a huge one for antler point restriction.

• 2:01:14Speaker 02

  Right. So they want antler point restrictions. I don't know, are they a one buck state too? Yeah. And so say there. Man, Mark was telling me that there, that guy that started in with the antler point restrictions, like that guy had to get out of wildlife management.

• 2:01:29Speaker 06

  He got run out of.

• 2:01:30Steven Rinella?

  Oh, we were trying to get him on the show, but I don't know what happened to it.

• 2:01:33Speaker 06

  He was a professor at Penn State when I was.

• 2:01:35Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, we were trying to get him on the show.

• 2:01:36Speaker 02

  The threats and everything was so bad.

• 2:01:39Speaker 06

  Gary, Gary.

• 2:01:39Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:40Speaker 06

  Gary.

• 2:01:40Steven Rinella?

  Selena Zito recommended, recommended.

• 2:01:43Speaker 02

  His, his relative works for Wild Sheep Foundation.

• 2:01:45Speaker 06

  But he like turned things around in Pennsylvania.

• 2:01:47Speaker 02

  Oh, big time. I think now he's like, he's, he's, they applaud his, his work and his, his ideas. Gary Alt. Gary Alt.

• 2:01:54Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, we were supposed to get him on the show, yeah. What, what, what'd he say?

• 2:02:01Speaker 07

  I think he may have, he may have ended up.

• 2:02:04Steven Rinella?

  Poaching now.

• 2:02:05Speaker 07

  Working in the state of Wisconsin after.

• 2:02:07Speaker 06

  Oh, okay.

• 2:02:08Speaker 07

  I think.

• 2:02:09Speaker 06

  There you go.

• 2:02:09Speaker 07

  I think so, yeah.

• 2:02:10Steven Rinella?

  Hell of a job. Is that it?

• 2:02:12Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:02:12Steven Rinella?

  Oh, shit.

• 2:02:13Speaker 06

  Well, here's the deal. It's like, why, why, uh, you ask why, like, why would Michigan DNR? Really care about that, right? Like, that's not necessarily, so they have a small group of people that are like, hey, we want, you know, better bucks.

• 2:02:27Steven Rinella?

  Yep.

• 2:02:27Speaker 06

  And like, we all know those, these wildlife agencies have to not only manage the wildlife, but they have to manage the people that enjoy the wildlife, right?

• 2:02:37Speaker 06

  In the, in the name of managing the wildlife, DNR wants Michigan hunters to shoot does, bad. So again, this is a way they're hoping that, like, the guys that used to just shoot the first buck that they saw are now, and, and then hold out for like the big buck and never shoot a doe.

• 2:02:59Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:59Speaker 06

  Now they're hoping that if you're in the field, you only have one buck tag and you like to shoot deer, you like to have, you like to have a couple of deer in the freezer. That's gonna, this is gonna hopefully promote antlerless harvest.

• 2:03:12Steven Rinella?

  I don't buy it.

• 2:03:13Speaker 06

  I, I, I don't, yeah, again, they don't.

• 2:03:15Steven Rinella?

  I, I, sure, I, I, that's fine.

• 2:03:17Speaker 06

  Everybody's, everybody's clear that if it's anything, it's gonna be incremental. The, the, the last thing I'll leave you with, and, and this is interesting because I hadn't really thought about this, and Brent said this, is that if they don't, Michigan's hunters don't start killing does, hunting as a management tool might become archaic. And something else, they will find another way to manage this deer population if it can't be done through hunters.

• 2:03:47Steven Rinella?

  Understood.

• 2:03:48Speaker 06

  So it's like a real, it's a, I think it's a seri- serious call out to all hunters around that like.

• 2:03:55Steven Rinella?

  Some, some industry is gonna come in and be like, we'll take it from here, boys.

• 2:03:58Speaker 06

  Yeah, right. Yeah. And then the antis can use it as like, hey, you guys weren't doing your job that you guys always said you're gonna do. You guys are always, you know, talking about being, you know.

• 2:04:07Steven Rinella?

  Balance of nature.

• 2:04:08Speaker 06

  Exactly, and all that.

• 2:04:09Speaker 07

  I'd be, I'd use it as an incentive, just to have the ability to be like.

• 2:04:18Speaker 07

  This is gonna be nothing but bratwurst. They like bang dough off to the processor.

• 2:04:25Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:25Speaker 07

  Bratwurst. This thing's gonna be nothing but sandwich meat. Here we go.

• 2:04:28Steven Rinella?

  You know what I'd do if I wanted to increase harvest is I'd have like those, you know, those little sausage making kits? The dry seasoning kit that comes stapled to your deer tag.

• 2:04:39Steven Rinella?

  So when you're sitting there and you're blind, you just got your hand in your pocket, you're feeling that brat seasoning.

• 2:04:44Speaker 06

  Mm hmm. You just gotta wonder why they don't, why that earn a buck thing.

• 2:04:49Steven Rinella?

  Deeply unpopular.

• 2:04:50Speaker 06

  I know, but.

• 2:04:52Speaker 02

  They're actually. They're, they're doing a test in a certain part of the southern peninsula where there is going to be an earn a buck for a second buck tag.

• 2:05:02Steven Rinella?

  Wisconsin got into earn a buck and it proved unpopular with, with. You know, not everybody, but was, was unpopular with the.

• 2:05:12Speaker 02

  The masses.

• 2:05:12Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, the masses.

• 2:05:14Speaker 07

  There's a lot of economic drivers, right? Like, um, most people are, are making it out for a weekend at, at most. Um, and could this incentivize people to go out and get a dough one weekend? And then try to find a buck another weekend. They're spending more money around the counties.

• 2:05:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:33Speaker 02

  It's just surprising to me because in, in our, my camp where I grew up hunting in Michigan, like we pounded doughs. And so to know that only 20.

• 2:05:41Steven Rinella?

  We brag about getting a dough tag.

• 2:05:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the only.

• 2:05:44Steven Rinella?

  Did you hear Steve got a dough tag?

• 2:05:46Speaker 02

  Only 20% of Michigan hunters will kill a dough. It's like, who are these guys?

• 2:05:51Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, it was crooked as day is long. But we didn't know about that kind of thing at the time. You know, everybody put their mom in for a dough tag.

• 2:05:57Speaker 06

  Oh, yes. That was a thing in Pennsylvania.

• 2:05:59Steven Rinella?

  Did you hear? I got a dough tag. Want to be my mom?

• 2:06:03Speaker 07

  I guided some Michigan hunters for black bear in Idaho, spring black bear, gajillion years ago.

• 2:06:12Speaker 07

  And there were mule deer does running across the road and they were like. Yanking on the door handles being like, can't meet, can't meet. And I couldn't, I was, you know, I was like, it's spring.

• 2:06:26Speaker 07

  And I'm like, I couldn't quite, there will, you know, camp me. So you just shoot a dove to have a camp.

• 2:06:32Steven Rinella?

  Oh, man, he's talked about that. You go to your camp, first thing you do is shoot a dove, like pre, like a preseason.

• 2:06:38Speaker 07

  Just to get things started the right way.

• 2:06:41Steven Rinella?

  All right, everybody, please subscribe to the Meat Eater Podcast YouTube channel. Okay. If you want more news, then subscribe to our show wherever you listen to podcasts. That way it pops right up when you turn your phone on. Thanks for listening.

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