This Is America: Byron Davis & Phil Allen, Jr.

Mass demonstrations continue to spread across the nation — and now, the world — for the 20th day and counting. For many, this has been a wake-up call. An uncomfortable reckoning with the vast extent to which misuse of power, police abuse, and racism (both overt and covert) are baked into the very fabric of our nation. But for black people, African Americans and people of color, that pain, violence, and fear is an everyday reality. On a personal note, I’m determined to better understanding this unfortunate dynamic. The history that led to it. The systemic nature of it. The institutions that perpetuate it. And the solutions required for its long-overdue undoing. Part of that commitment is sharing an increased diversity voices. Towards that end, today I reconnect with my friend Byron Davis, alongside Pastor Phil Allen, Jr. An O. G. podcast guest dating back to early 2013 (RRP #14), Byron is a former USA Swimming National Team member, American Record holder, UCLA All-American, and Ironman who holds the distinction of falling just three-tenths of a second shy of becoming the first African-American to make the USA Olympic Men's Swimming Team. Phil is a pastor, teacher, poet, and the filmmaker behind Open Wounds, a powerful documentary that delves into the reality of intergenerational trauma through the story of his grandfather’s murder and the police’s subsequent refusal to investigate it (now available on Vimeo on demand). Today Byron and Phil share their perspective on the protests. The BLM movement as a whole. And its potential to catalyze significant structural change. Bluntly put, this is an important conversation about what it means to be black in America. It’s about the economic history of slavery in the United States. It’s about the extent to which racism is perpetuated systemically — by way of policy, law, economics, politics & generations of socialization. It’s about the ways in which white supremacy is embedded into the bedrock of our institutions — from religious and political to educational and judicial. And it’s about confronting the pernicious manner in which racism lives, breathes, and persists — often completely unconsciously — within ourselves. This country has arrived at a critical crossroads. A choice to implode or heal. The higher path demands responsibility. The awakening requires we examine history from a different perspective. It demands we define our personal and national values. And it dictates that we align those values with action. To dismantle what is broken. To rebuild our institutions. To reframe our relationships -- and ourselves. I’m grateful to Byron & Phil for their openness, patience & vulnerability. For sharing their perspective on race, personal encounters with racism, and stories of pain. The visually inclined can watch our conversation on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I truly believe that conversations like this are crucial if we want to finally transcend our past, learn, grow, and lead by example. To echo Cornel West, what we don’t need are lukewarm folk. We don’t need 'summer soldiers’. What we need are all season love warriors. It is this spirit that I offer today's conversation. May you receive it with an open heart. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Byron Davis?

  This is a time of courage, a time of intestinal fortitude where white people also have to confront their ignorance. Ignorance is the beginning of enlightenment. It's learning. You can't learn until you confront and wrestle through your ignorance, right? That's the foundation or the fundamentals of learning. So, adults have to embrace the fear and the risk of being vulnerable. You know, what they may say out of just sheer ignorance is proven to be untrue. So, we definitely have to take this opportunity to now do some deep-dive surgery into the

• 1:49Byron Davis?

  systemic issues that allow this thing to exist.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  I don't know what else we can do. I really don't. If you look at literature, you look at music, you look at movies, you look at marches. We've done it peacefully. We've done it angrily. We've knelt, fists in the air. We've used our bodies. That's one of the primary resources we have, our bodies. We've done everything we know to do, and we're still here. Not just incidents, but a culture. I think it takes the white allies to be the voices advocating in solidarity to the white community, because they're not going to listen to us necessarily. Not all, some will, but the masses won't listen to us.

• 2:39Rich Roll?

  That's Byron Davis and Phil Allen Jr., and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:55Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, all season love warriors. It is I, Rich Roll, your host. This is my transmission. Welcome to it. Okay, so as I record this, mass demonstrations continue to spread across the nation and now the world for what I believe is something like the 20th night in a row. And for many, grappling with, recognizing, coming to terms with

• 3:32Rich Roll?

  the vast extent to which things like police abuse, misuse of power, racism, both overt and covert, and the toxic racial divide that persists and that is woven into the very fabric of our society, has been a wake-up call. But it's important to recognize and to confront that for Black people, for Indigenous people, people of color, that this is just reality. That pain, that violence, that fear is every day.

• 4:11Rich Roll?

  I'm committed to better understanding this dynamic, the history that led to it, the systemic nature of it, the institutions that perpetuate it, and the solutions for its long overdue undoing. And part of that commitment is sharing an increased diversity of voices here on the podcast, hearing more from Black and African American and people of color thought leaders right now, in this current moment, and moving forward. On that note, today I reconnect with my friend and fellow swimmer Byron Davis, along with his friend, my new friend, Pastor Phil Allen Jr.

• 4:56Rich Roll?

  Byron was one of my very first guests on this show, dating all the way back to early 2013, RRP 14. I suggest you mine through the podcast archive, give that one a listen. Byron is just a wildly inspiring human being. He's overcome quite the obstacles to be this incredible individual. And in that episode, we go deep into his personal story and his journey. Aside from being a former USA national team member, an American record holder, a UCLA All-American, and an Ironman, Byron was just three tenths of a second shy of becoming the very first African American to make the USA Olympic swimming team. He remains a role model

• 5:41Rich Roll?

  for thousands of young athletes across the country. He's a sought after speaker and consultant, and just one of those very special few with an innate penchant for helping other people unlock their inner potential. Phil Allen Jr. is a pastor, a teacher, a poet, and a filmmaker behind the documentary Open Wounds, which delves into the reality of intergenerational trauma through the story of his grandfather's murder and the police's subsequent refusal to investigate it. Phil is also the founding pastor of Own Your Faith Ministries in Santa Clarita, California, and a second year PhD student

• 6:25Rich Roll?

  at Fuller Theological Seminary, where he's studying Christian ethics, and theology, and culture with a focus on Dr. King's theology and ethics, as well as the intersection of race theory and theology.

• 6:40Rich Roll?

  I got a bunch more I want to say about these gentlemen and the conversation to come, but first.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  Okay. To put it bluntly, this is what I think, an important, at times, heavy conversation about what this historic moment represents and what it means to be Black in America. It's about the economic history of slavery in the United States. It's about the extent to which racism is perpetuated systemically by way of policy, law, economics, politics, and generations of socialization. It's about the ways in which white supremacy is embedded in our religious, political, educational, and basically every institution in this country.

• 7:35Rich Roll?

  And it's about getting honest about the extent to which, and the manner in which, the embedded nature of racism persists, often completely unconsciously, within ourselves, myself included. This moment is an important crossroads for this country. It's an opportunity, a potential awakening, and a collective responsibility to gain objective clarity on historical truth, to define what our values truly are and put them into action, to dismantle that which is broken, and to rebuild from the ground up, not just our country and our institutions, but ourselves as well.

• 8:18Rich Roll?

  I'm grateful to Byron and Phil for showing up, for being open, for being patient and vulnerable with me, for sharing their perspective on race, their very personal encounters with racism, and their stories of pain.

• 8:33Rich Roll?

  And I'm well aware that this conversation might be uncomfortable for some. But I truly believe that conversations like this are crucial if we want to finally transcend our past. We want to learn, if we want to grow, if we want to do better and lead by example. I for one am committed to being teachable, to being challenged, to leaning in, and to being part of positive change. Final note, in the week that has elapsed since we recorded this, Phil decided to make his documentary Open Wounds, which again is about the lynching of his grandfather and the subsequent police cover-up, available on Vimeo on demand. It's a powerful 41 minutes.

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  I strongly suggest you check it out, and you can find a link to that film in the show notes or on Phil's website at philallanjr, philallanjr.com/openswoundsdoc. Second, Phil is also an amazing poet and spoken word artist, and I was remiss in not exploring this with him during the podcast. I sincerely regret not asking him to perform one of his pieces, so I also encourage you to check out his art on his YouTube page, which I have also linked in the show notes. And you should start with his poem Color Blind But Not Colorless, which I found particularly powerful.

• 9:56Rich Roll?

  Finally, and especially to those who may be feeling some resistance to this conversation, I would encourage you to watch the documentary 13th on Netflix if you haven't already, which I think does an amazing job at contextualizing and explaining the systemic aspect of racism. I re-watched it with my family the other night, and it's just unbelievably powerful and illuminating. To echo Cornel West, what we don't need are lukewarm folk. We don't need summer soldiers. What we need are all-season love warriors. And it is in that spirit that I give you Byron Davis and Phil Allen Jr.

• 10:45Rich Roll?

  Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you for doing this.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Thank you, man. This is great.

• 10:49Rich Roll?

  It's good to have you guys here. So why don't we start with just you guys briefly introducing yourselves, kind of what you do, and then perhaps we can pivot into taking a 10,000-foot view on kind of where we're at right now.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, my name is Phil Allen. I'm a founding pastor of Own Your Faith Ministries in Santa Clarita, California. I'm a second-year PhD student at Fuller Theological Seminary, studying Christian ethics and theology and culture. And my focus is Dr. King's Theology and Ethics, as well as the intersection of race theory and theology. So that's my study and my research will center on that. I'm an author and filmmaker, just produced a short film, Open Wounds, about my grandfather's murder in 1953. Family never got justice,

• 11:51Speaker 02

  and it talks a lot about intergenerational trauma from racial tragedies and systems and structures, and where do we go, what do we do now?

• 12:01Rich Roll?

  I tried to find the film online. I watched the trailer, but it's not publicly available right now, right?

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Not yet. Soon, soon. Yeah. But I know the producers, I can get you a link.

• 12:14Rich Roll?

  All right, man. That's a deal. I'd like to see it. And what does that mean, Christian ethics? Maybe explain that a little bit.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Just ethics, you know, we have terms like social ethics, ethics in particular contexts, but it's just a biblically informed, scripture-informing, the ethics, how we...

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Like right now, how do we respond to a murder that we see on camera for the world to see? How do we respond in a biblically informed manner to this?

• 12:51Speaker 02

  How do we respond to what's happening in politics? How does the Bible inform that?

• 13:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it would seem that everything that's happening right now, like your whole life and everything that you've been studying has been preparing you for this moment.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, I wasn't gonna release the film. I was trying to get it in film festivals. And when this happened, people who have seen it, because I've screened it a few times in LA, said, "You gotta show the film. You gotta show the film."

• 13:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  And I thought about it this past week, and I said, "You know what? This is the time." And there are other projects I want to do. And so, maybe this is what this is for. Because we did it in six months.

• 13:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  We filmed, edited, produced, and screened it within six months. Raised the funds. And so, maybe this is what that was for.

• 13:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I support that. I mean, I think you could take it to a bunch of film festivals, which now are all on hold or don't exist anymore, for, you know, a couple small audiences. Or you could release it publicly and attract a wide amount of attention

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:09Rich Roll?

  to the issue. I mean, essentially, the film is about your grandfather, who was, you know, without mincing words lynched, right? And kind of getting to the bottom of what happened and how that, you know, played out and was covered up.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And how it affected my grandmother 60 years later. She's still, the trauma was still there. She couldn't talk about it. And then how it affected my father.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  When he found out that his father was killed by a man that lived a few doors down from him. And it changed his life. And so... That was the man who raised me, or who was my father.

• 14:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  So therefore, there's gonna be some things going on in my life that I'm dealing with because of what's been passed on to me. And I had no idea the root of it.

• 15:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  And so I started to do this research and I realized where the pain, my grandmother's pain was, like, why she was the way she was.

• 15:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Why my father was the way he was. And it actually led to having more compassion for my dad when I first found out. Because we didn't have a good relationship. And there was a lot of forgiveness that needed to happen on my part.

• 15:29Rich Roll?

  Because of the trauma that he experienced that got passed down and wasn't ever fully processed or communicated to you in a way where you guys could get past it?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, my father, he never, you know, we had a conversation a few years ago where he was healing or grieving his mother and my uncle, his brother's death, which were like seven months apart. And I asked him, "Do you think you are grieving your father's death too?" He said, "Well, I never knew my father. I was two when he died."

• 16:00Rich Roll?

  He was two, right.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  And I said, "That's my point." Because, you know, domestic violence, I grew up in domestic violence. I saw it for the first 15 years of my life.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  My father had drug addiction, alcohol addiction, anger, serious anger problems. And there was hate in my heart towards my dad. And so when I found this out, then it was like, "Wait a minute, he was nine when he found out." He's still processing this stuff. Like, what would I do if I was nine years old and I found out that my father was killed?

• 16:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Right? So it led me to forgive.

• 16:44Rich Roll?

  The story was that he fell off a boat or something like that?

• 16:47Speaker 02

  They say he fell off a boat. But my grandmother told me her father went to the funeral home and told the funeral director, "Don't do anything to the body until I get there." And he got there and he saw the bullet hole in the back of his head or neck. His body came up a couple of days later. And so they know it was murder. And then I recently found out the man who shot him.

• 17:17Byron Davis?

  Confessed it before he passed away. Someone knew him and he was in his later years and he had confessed, I guess he felt he could trust that person.

• 17:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:28Byron Davis?

  And he confessed it, but he's no longer here, so.

• 17:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:31Byron Davis?

  Yeah.

• 17:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so it's a justice that could never be redressed. And what does that do to a, you know, a young man at age nine when he finds out? And how does he carry that throughout his life and pass it along?

• 17:46Byron Davis?

  Yep.

• 17:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I want to get into that a little bit more deeply, but Byron.

• 17:52Byron Davis?

  Mm-hmm.

• 17:53Rich Roll?

  We go way back.

• 17:54Byron Davis?

  Yeah, we go way back. I'll be quick. Of course, you and Rich, you and I, you were at Stanford, I was UCLA, swimming. And, you know, I'm a former athlete turned speaker, consultant. Phil and I became, you know, good friends and brothers when we were both on staff at a church called Shepherd Church out in Porter Ranch. But we've been connected for, you know, close to 15 years now, 13, 15 years. And both of, both he and I, you know, didn't necessarily start out in this journey of becoming activists in this issue, but by nature of, you know, how he grew up, how I grew up.

• 18:39Byron Davis?

  It's, and even in the climate that we're in now, it, it, it just makes sense. And, you know, I think part of our, our mission and our, our goal, our heart is to elevate the conversation around race and around, you know, superiority, around racism, and, you know, just around people, groups of people in their silos, constantly pointing out, you know, the wrong in other people. And causing so much division that we don't get smart minds on all sides working together to actually address and deal and ultimately heal the problem.

• 19:18Rich Roll?

  Right. He's so humble, man.

• 19:22Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? I mean, let's just like lay it out for people that are watching or listening. Like Byron was Byron's a legend. Like this guy was an incredible athlete, you know? Incredible. Were you the first African American to make the USA national team?

• 19:38Byron Davis?

  Um, actually, um, I know there was one person right before me. Now I'm blanking, which is terrible. Um, but yeah, I was, I was one of the first.

• 19:48Rich Roll?

  Right. And just three tenths of a second separated you from becoming the first African American to make a USA Olympic team in swimming. I was there at Olympic trials. I watched that race. Cause Mark Henderson was my, you know, teammate going way back. But I have, and we talked about this and Byron was on the podcast in the very early days. I think it was episode 17 and we went through his whole life story. So I encourage everybody to go back and, and listen to that, um, to get a full, you know, picture of, of your life. But you had to overcome incredible obstacles to, you know, not just become the athlete that you became, but to become the man, the father and the husband that you are today. Um, and I got nothing but, you know, mad respect for, you know, that journey that you

• 20:33Rich Roll?

  went on and you've always comported yourself with just tremendous, um, grace and, and just composure through what I would imagine, you know, was incredibly difficult at times. And the fact that you're, you, you kind of just, you know, didn't even mention any of those things. I just wanted to make sure that people really understood. Like I remember, you know, we talked about this before, but I remember being at swim meets and, and seeing Byron on the deck and he was just, the guy was like a Greek god. It was incredible, you know, watching this guy perform. Um, and so I'm, you know, honored to be your friend and to have you guys here today. So why don't we, I want to get your perspective on, on, you know, what's going on right now from like a 10,000 foot view.

• 21:18Rich Roll?

  Like, how are you perceiving the current climate and series of events that we're seeing unfold like rapidly, like everything is accelerating very quickly, um, right now. But give me a sense of kind of where your head is at.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  I, the first thing that comes to mind is

• 21:40Speaker 02

  pain is manifesting itself, particularly from the black community.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Because George Floyd represents a lineage of black bodies that die senselessly. It just so happens there was a camera to capture it. And I don't know many African American, men particularly, that don't have stories, whether it's police officers or civilians, where it could turn ugly, it could lead to something like that. Because you come across people that just want to flex authority or superiority. I've, I've got those stories. Matter of fact, this, this last incident impacted me harder

• 22:33Speaker 02

  than the others. Because? Well, what's interesting is I,

• 22:39Speaker 02

  I realized on Thursday, just a few days ago, that my body responded when I saw the video. But my mind did not understand why this thing was so heavy until a few days ago. So when I saw it, there's this response here.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  That, this traumatic response in my body, and my mind knew that this was heavy. I'm crying throughout the day, I can't write. I can't study and read. And then a few days ago, I realized this is why. Because it took me back 19 years to my personal experience in New York, being pulled over, profiled. And it didn't lead to brutality or anything, but he was instigating me, the cop. He told me what he could do, and there was nothing I could do about it. And he stood in front of me and he stared at me.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  And I guarantee you, if he stood in front of me today, I could, if he was in a lineup, I could point him out 19 years later. So I never forgot that look. So when I saw the cop's eyes, that's what did it.

• 23:52Rich Roll?

  Meaning, meaning like, I'm, I'm the one in control here.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  This, this, this evil and this hate, like he was looking at me like he despised me.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  And it was, he was just like, he was in my face right here, maybe not even this far away, and just staring at me. And I wouldn't bow my head, I just stared back at him. And when I saw the cop's eyes, it reminded me, it took me back. And I said, that's why this is so heavy for me.

• 24:20Rich Roll?

  There was something just so brazen about it and casual. And there was awareness, there was an awareness that they were being filmed and it didn't seem to matter. And I think that is really chilling.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 24:34Byron Davis?

  And I, just to add, I think, one, I, I am grateful that it was finally, that was finally captured on video. Because events up until this point, again, this isn't the first incident of police abuse and brutality that's been caught on video. But what was caught was you had a police officer who, in his posture, had full control over the situation, and intentionally decided to put his hand in his pocket and stand in a position of dominance over this black man until the black man died.

• 25:19Byron Davis?

  Capturing that.

• 25:21Rich Roll?

  With other officers.

• 25:22Byron Davis?

  With other officers.

• 25:23Rich Roll?

  Standing in witness of that.

• 25:24Byron Davis?

  And one officer, you know, timidly even suggesting, hey, I think we got this under control. And him like, no, you know, you're a rookie on the job, you go over there. You know, that all was captured. And I think for the first time in this age of social media, more people actually saw that. Not a black kid running away and being shot. You know, or brutally being beat up. And we come in halfway through the video.

• 25:54Rich Roll?

  We don't know the story that led up to that.

• 25:56Byron Davis?

  Right, we were able to see that. I think that's, in addition to pain, I think it also evokes a lot of anger among the African American community. Because this is what we speak about behind closed doors, all the way to the 21st century. I'll never forget, my son, right before he went off to college, he's a freshman at USC now. He and I, in sophomore year, had the talk. And what's the talk? It's the talk that black men have with their black sons and nephews about how to engage and encounter, interact with the police if you're pulled over or anything of that nature.

• 26:41Byron Davis?

  I actually had to have the talk with my son. That's gone on for, I mean, we can't even count.

• 26:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:51Rich Roll?

  There is a palpable sense that this is an inflection point. And what, you know, allowed this moment to, you know, capture the attention of the world in such a huge way, you know, seems to be unclear. Like, is it, it seems to be that it's the confluence of a bunch of these events happening in, you know, serial fashion, all of a sudden, compounded by, you know, people being cloistered in their homes and jobs being stripped away. Like, there's a rawness right now to everybody that I think has contributed to this just being an extraordinary flashpoint

• 27:34Rich Roll?

  for not just America, but the world. And I'm interested in whether you think that there is...

• 27:44Rich Roll?

  The possibility that this is going to be different. We've been here before. We were here in Ferguson in 2014 and there was a sense that things were going to change. And they didn't really change. The world was paying attention very closely for a short period of time and then it moved on. I'm sure in 1968, there was a sense that we were going to emerge into a post-race nation. And we've made progress, but we've fallen far short of that mark. So do you feel like we're now in a position to make the changes that are necessary to make? And what are those changes?

• 28:23Speaker 02

  I think we are.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  I'm skeptical, but I think we have the potential to make significant change.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Like you said, we've been here multiple times before. That's one reason why I'm a little skeptical. But if we don't make the mistake of just simply responding to the incident, the moment, like that's the only thing that we're responding to. And then, once it dies down, we think everything is okay. Maybe justice is served and they go to the cops, go to prison. The family may get some money and so justice is served. So now let's move on. I think this is a moment where, and I say this all the time to the white community,

• 29:08Speaker 02

  to be baptized, to be immersed in a culture, a history, perspectives that are not your own. So I talk to, I'll teach a class or I'll preach or have a workshop. And one of the things I hear, one of the most consistent things I hear is, I never knew that. Because I usually will do a survey of history to walk us, go back and bring us to this point. So people can get context and people are stunned.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Because they never knew, they never knew Emmett Till. They never knew about the amount of, the extent of lynching. They never knew that veterans, African-American veterans from the war, World War II, would come back and many of them were lynched. Uh, because now they were a threat. They, they have been empowered as soldiers and they wanted equal, but they would be lynched or killed or, or beaten, what have you. And people just didn't know the extent of this. For whatever reason, they think it's just these particular isolated incidents. Then the systemic, the structural, the institutional racism, the laws and policies from decades ago that we're living out the legacy of today that perpetuate disparities along racial lines.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Where it doesn't need to be an individual doing something. The laws and policies do them for you.

• 30:34Rich Roll?

  Right, that is the definition of systemic. Right, it doesn't matter, like, the narrative that gets spun is, there is no systemic racism. I'm not racist. I don't have racist friends. But the very definition of systemic means that you don't have to be individually racist. You can opt out of that completely. If nobody's racist, the system is constructed in a manner that still leans towards favoring those that have against those that have not. And it will continue to repress the African-American community until it's deconstructed and rebuilt with checks and balances that ensure, you know, proper equality and freedom for all.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 31:14Byron Davis?

  And that's, okay.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Well, one other thing. I think one thing that is different now is it's not just black folks angry. Like, when you go to these protests, like you said, you see everybody there. Now, my hope is that from this, the bat-, that's why I use the term baptized, now immerse yourself in understanding how we got here. Because if we don't, we will compound the issue, trying to fix it, especially trying to fix it really quick. Uh, we'll just compound the issue because we don't understand it fully. So that's why, that's one reason it gives me a little bit of hope. This is different because, um, the people who I see are, are angry and out there. It's multicultural, it's not just primarily black people.

• 31:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That has been a big difference. Go ahead.

• 32:00Byron Davis?

  Right, history's always been told. From the perspective of the victors, right?

• 32:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:05Byron Davis?

  People who can control the narrative. And so when you, when you look at the, the foundation and the history of the United States of America, it was founded on the backs of slavery. Okay, I mean, even when you just go all the way back to when you had the Europeans coming over and in, in conquest and adventure, it was economically driven, right? It, it was all that, the foundation. And when they tried to initially enslave indigenous people and Native Americans, that didn't work out very well because Native Americans knew the lay of the land. They could, you couldn't keep them captive.

• 32:47Byron Davis?

  And they found an economic model that was actually going to work. And so from the very beginning of our history, all the way through, up and through today, you see the, the systemic scaffolding of white supremacy embedded in the system. And, uh, you know, you, you ask the question, you know, can there be change? There, there won't be change until those who have a vested interest in keeping the status quo the way it is, are willing to challenge their own worldview. And when their blind spots are actually pointed out, have the courage to change.

• 33:31Byron Davis?

  Because then that's going to actually shift a lot of the power and a lot of the privilege that exists even to today.

• 33:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, people don't like to do that though.

• 33:40Byron Davis?

  Exactly, right, exactly.

• 33:41Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 33:42Byron Davis?

  Right, and, and that's where it's scary.

• 33:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Byron Davis?

  And, and so when you, uh, when you get this, this narrative, a good book, um, uh, is, is a book called White Fragility by Rob, um,

• 33:56Rich Roll?

  D'Angelo.

• 33:57Byron Davis?

  Robin D'Angelo, thank you. Uh, that actually speaks, uh, puts a lot of good language and articulates this big fear that many white people have. About confronting their own racism. Because you don't necessarily have to be a person that hates, overtly hates another person's by because of their skin color, to still perpetuate racism. You just have to recognize when you are asserting yourself and catch yourself, or one has to catch themselves, on what is the benchmark and the gold standard or the norm by which they define and rate everything else. You know, my daughter, for instance.

• 34:41Byron Davis?

  You know, when a white kid comes up to her, not meaning anything malicious, and tells her, "You look cute for a black girl." Right?

• 34:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:50Byron Davis?

  It's this idea of, wait a minute, I'm comparing her beauty to a standard that I'm not even aware that I'm even comparing.

• 35:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, did you see the video clip that was going around with the Australian newscaster who was interviewing the twin women? Who, I think they were twins, and they came from a mixed-race, mixed-race parents, and one looked very white and one looked very black. And the newscaster was complimenting the white-looking twin and saying, you know, "Good on you, that you got the one." It was just like...

• 35:29Byron Davis?

  Right.

• 35:29Rich Roll?

  You know, yeah.

• 35:30Byron Davis?

  It's that, that is prevalent. And that's baked into every facet of our system.

• 35:48Rich Roll?

  I can only speak to my own experience as a white, privileged male. And, you know, I can tell you that I've had to do my own soul-searching to look for, you know, where I've... I was gonna say like gone awry, but I think that's the wrong phrase, like more where my blind spots are in all of this. You know, have I done an adequate job of ensuring that I have a diversity of voices on the podcast? And what are the things that I'm doing, you know, throughout my daily life that I'm not consciously aware of, but yet are part of the problem, right? And I think, you know, one of the things that I've been been struggling with over the

• 36:28Rich Roll?

  last couple of weeks, as somebody who has a platform, is how do I communicate about this? And what I've, what I've noticed in myself is a resistance to speaking because I don't want to say the wrong thing, or I'm afraid that if I say this, it's going to be misinterpreted. I don't care about people being, you know, like the people, the trolls and all that like that, that doesn't bother me at all. But I do want to get this right. And I want to make sure that I'm effective in my communication. And I think that that, but that fear of, of needing or wanting it to be as accurate as possible has prevented me from speaking up

• 37:12Rich Roll?

  or as, or as frequently as I could and should be doing. And I think that's something that's probably, you know, a common thing that a lot of, you know, white people have right now. So, you know, what are, what are the questions, like, what is the right question to ask right now? Like, if you're speaking to a white person, like, what are the things that they should be thinking about? And how can they contribute and participate in this in the most effective way?

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think a great question is, should be asking, how did we get here?

• 37:47Speaker 02

  Because I think a lot, I listened to a lot of people speak as if they have the answers, again, because of this event and recent events. And the anger that you see is not just because of these events. This is anger that stretches back 400 years. Because when, as an African American, in our community, when we see something happen, it's never just about the thing that happened. It's typically

• 38:15Speaker 02

  About the history, this is another thing that's happening. So it's like this is a sub, it's a natural thing. We don't just look at Arbery's situation. We don't just look at George Floyd or Breonna Taylor. We literally, it's like, it's like a file that you just recall the faces and names like that. Or I could go back to Emmett Till immediately. And your own personal experiences. Yeah, personal experiences. So I think a good question to ask is, how did we get here? And I don't think enough people ask that question. I think for one, one reason, it's going to force people, particularly white folks, to look at this country differently.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  It's going to force them to, you're talking about white fragility, what D'Angelo's talking about. It, it forces them to look at themselves. Because to be American, subconsciously, is to be white. Right? And then everything else is measured against that. I've had people say it in conversations where a guy would say, yeah, I was in this, at this, in this room and it was a bunch of people, it was diverse, you know, and I, you know, Americans were there. And then he began to list the African American or the black folks, Hispanics. They weren't American, I guess. Right. But he, when he was saying American, he was talking about the white folks that were there. And he did this, he wasn't a bad person. He was a great guy.

• 39:42Speaker 02

  But subconsciously, he just associated American with white. That's typically what happens. And so to look at how we got here is to now have to open up yourselves to seeing this country differently. Because I always ask the question, when you say America is so great, what's your definition of greatness? And when? Because if you're talking about power, like military might and prosperity, certainly. If you're talking morally and being a just society, you have to, you have to go back and help me understand when was that?

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Because there's always been systemic and legalized oppression in this country. There's never been a decade, there's never been a time. In history, in our history, that it wasn't the case. And so I challenged that notion of greatness. Do we have the potential to be? Absolutely. And so I think, how do we get here? Is a great question to ask.

• 40:44Byron Davis?

  And in addition to that also, I think people have to, this is a time of courage, a time of intestinal fortitude where white people also have to confront their ignorance. When we don't know and that's exposed, that's vulnerable. And it doesn't, I mean, this goes beyond race. This is just human nature, right? Human condition. If we're not something, if we don't know something and our current idea or point of view or answer that we thought was true is shown not to be by, just based on evidence, that's a very vulnerable position to be in.

• 41:30Byron Davis?

  Okay, no one likes their ignorance exposed. But if you look at that, even that term ignorance from just the sheer educational definition, ignorance is the beginning of enlightenment. It's learning. You have to, you can't learn until you confront and wrestle through your ignorance, right? That's what, that's the foundation or the fundamentals of learning. So adults have to embrace the fear and the risk of being vulnerable. You know, when they, what they may say out of just sheer ignorance is proven to be untrue.

• 42:09Rich Roll?

  Well, it requires a certain humility, too. And I'm uplifted because I'm seeing a willingness to embrace this conversation in a way that I can't recall in my lifetime and that that gives me hope. But it's juxtaposed against a climate and a culture that is more deeply entrenched in being right and their silos and, you know, the division that we're seeing right now. It's sort of a war between those two things right now. You know, social media fomenting this division across America where people just want to yell at each other and no one. Is taking a pause to actually listen and take stock and, you know, perform a little

• 42:54Rich Roll?

  bit of, you know, forensic self-analysis. But I think these events have led us to a point where we are seeing a certain portion of the population doing that. I'm attempting to do that here today. And I think that's really the only path to healing and to, and to really reconstructing society around more equitable lines.

• 43:15Byron Davis?

  Rich, I think you're totally right. You hit the nail on the head. You have to be willing to have those kind of conversations. When you can get, when intelligent people are, are stuck in their silos and their echo chambers and, and spend more energy trying to defend their position, then admit that this is a multifaceted, complexed problem that is going to take rigorous and consistent attention to in order to really right, in order to really solve the problem.

• 43:56Byron Davis?

  Until we're willing to, to really embrace that, then it's, it's going to be an uphill battle. It's going to be hard because we are, we, we feel more comfortable when we think we're right or when we have the upper hand. And so when you have people on all sides digging in and, you know, having good points on every side, but spending most of our energy trying to point out where and why the other side is wrong, as opposed to instead of being on opposite sides of the table, coming together on one side and actually pouring all of that energy into the problem.

• 44:37Byron Davis?

  I, I think that's, that's, that's the heavy lifting that has, and conversations like this is a start. But I think what message we want to continue to really advocate is after the protesting, after the news cycle, you know, has died down, after, you know, the shift in attention moves to something else, will we have enough boots on the ground committed to wrestling within the trenches to right the wrong that we clearly see right now?

• 45:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that energy has to get channeled into some kind of productive change that is, you know, architected around strategies and tactics to actually enact the changes that are necessary, rather than just, you know, sort of outrage that dissipates into the atmosphere.

• 45:25Byron Davis?

  Which is, again, why you hear people really pointing the spotlight on the dysfunction within the justice system. And you get a lot of people on one side saying, you know, that's just, those are just bad apple cops, and deflecting the attention on, no, this is just, if we look at it in terms of a virus, this is just a flare up of something that, you know, is still alive on the inside. And what we're seeing is just a flare up happening, but if we don't, if we just deal

• 46:04Byron Davis?

  with the surface, you know, issue, and not deal with the root cause on the inside, it's just going to be a matter of time before this little thing heals, but in months, weeks, years, another flare up happens. So we definitely have to take this opportunity to now do some deep dive surgery into the systemic issues that allow this thing to exist.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, listening to you, Byron, I think one of the things to look at is the power dynamics. When you come to the table, and we're talking about division, and each side, everyone wants to be right. When you come to the table, you have to relinquish power because it has to be a compromise. Well, as an African American man, I come to the table. I'm already, I'm already behind. I already, I'm marginalized already. I don't want to let go of power. Whatever power I do have, I need to have that one to protect myself at this table, to speak up for myself because I don't have much. When a white person comes to the table, they're used to having power, not even, not as an individual necessarily,

• 47:17Speaker 02

  but representing the group that's in power.

• 47:19Rich Roll?

  And they get to decide how much power everybody else has.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  And that's uncomfortable if you have to relinquish that, to come to the table to have discussion, right? So it's uncomfortable for both sides. It's a power struggle, right? And so I don't know how you, I don't know how you self-police that. I don't know how you hold each other accountable. But that's, that's, that's what I'm hearing. Because I know when I come to the table, I'm coming girded up because I don't know, I don't know when the next time I'm going to be at the table. I don't know what decisions are going to be made that's going to affect my life. So I have to come with my power, my agency. And then my white brothers and sisters, when they come to the table, they're used to being, it's natural to be in that position.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  I've been in these meetings before, even in the church, where I see this and I have to flex. I have to assert myself because if I don't, I will get crushed. And then it becomes this battle. And then I'm looked at as the person who's out of control.

• 48:22Rich Roll?

  Why are you being so aggressive?

• 48:24Speaker 02

  The angry black man, right? And I'm like, no, just because you're composed, and I'm passionate over here, I'm frustrated because you have this power and you're trying to assert that, impose that upon me, and I'm not letting you. So I'm the one that's out of control. I'm the angry black guy. And so that's where the, the struggle comes in. I just had a conversation with a pastor recently, and it didn't go well. I mean, it was bad. And I didn't know, I didn't really know the guy, but it was bad. And I, I saw the power dynamics in there, right? And I wasn't going to relinquish mine because...

• 49:01Byron Davis?

  I wasn't gonna let him dictate for me, one, how I should respond to this George Floyd situation. I wasn't gonna let him dictate to me my understanding of racism. Like, literally, this is all I do every day, every week.

• 49:17Rich Roll?

  Other than bald-faced racism and these systemic problems that have created these institutions that create inequality, a huge obstacle or opposing force to Black Lives Matter is a huge swath of underprivileged disenfranchised white Americans who have lost their jobs or are seeing declines in their ability to make a living, et cetera, who are hurting. And it seems to me that that's the most activated group of people

• 49:58Rich Roll?

  who, because they feel like they're not being heard, right? So their natural inclination is to voice their anger in an unproductive way by opposing this movement.

• 50:16Byron Davis?

  Yeah.

• 50:17Rich Roll?

  And I think you have to, on some level, that has to be addressed in order for everybody to come to the table to compromise, I suppose. So how do you think about that issue?

• 50:28Byron Davis?

  Richard, one, I think it's a great point to bring up, but it goes back to a point that Phil, you were making earlier, and this is where getting an accurate perspective of history is so important. When you look back on even after slavery was over and blacks were able to, in especially different pockets, go out and actually start making a living. They got their own land, started opening up their own businesses, actually started thriving. I mean, underneath military protection at that point, support, but they were actually

• 51:06Byron Davis?

  thriving and starting to grow. Well, one of the sectors that really began to feel the brunt of this new shift in opportunity and power was the lower-class white community.

• 51:22Byron Davis?

  Of which the Ku Klux Klan was birthed and born. Because even back then, they started seeing and feeling and interpreting their lack was coming from these black people who were taking their jobs.

• 51:38Rich Roll?

  Right, like a zero-sum game.

• 51:40Byron Davis?

  Like a zero-sum game.

• 51:41Rich Roll?

  Where black empowerment and advancement was, you know, at the cost of their own empowerment.

• 51:45Byron Davis?

  Exactly, Xs and Os, or, you know, binary, this whole binary relationship, and that's not true. And you continue to see that throughout history, and not just with the African-American community. We can talk about the Asian community, and the railroad, Transatlantic Railroad that was built, and how there was a huge, you know, skift on employing Asian workers to build the railroad. And by the time the railroad met in the middle of America, you look at the picture of the two sides joining and the big picture of all these men, they were all white faces. The Asian community who actually built that from the Pacific all the way to the Midwest,

• 52:29Byron Davis?

  no sign that they were even involved in this whole process. Because all the way through, you had disenfranchised whites attacking people who thought were taking their opportunity away. So, you're definitely right, what's being felt now is, again, another symptom of a dysfunctional structure that has to be examined and looked at rigorously. It's not an easy answer. And on top of that, when you have, not getting too political with this, but when you have voices recognizing the divide and then throwing fuel on, or, you know, gasoline on the fuel

• 53:14Byron Davis?

  to keep the division necessary, it doesn't help the problem. But I hope that that kind of speaks to why it's so important for us to, again, Really take this, you know, take the long, this is the long game that we have to be willing to wrestle with and then look at, you know, why are a lot of white, traditionally white communities suffering, white lower class, class communities suffering? Well, it's not because blacks or Latinos are taking their jobs. It's because the system that actually created economic opportunity, maybe in that environment or that, that local area, has shifted.

• 53:58Byron Davis?

  So there's, it's not coal any longer. It's not an industrialized support system or infrastructure that's generating the revenue for that community. Things have shifted, automation. A lot of things have changed that has now taken dollars and cash flow out of that community. And so we've got to look at that. We have to look at this problem in a very compound, complex way. And then in the process of solving the problem together, be willing to look at our blind spots when our blind spots are exposed.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Let's go back a little further, 1600s. I think it was around 1680. This is one of the things that, try to get people to understand, white supremacy is a very exclusive, originally a very exclusive club. It was white and wealthy. So the lower class or the working class, the poor whites, actually had more in common with the, with indentured black servants and slaves back in the 1600s than they did with the merchants. And there was an uprising, I think Bacon's Rebellion, there was an uprising. This is when the term white became a legal term and privileges became attached to it.

• 55:15Speaker 02

  And this is how they divided the African Americans, the African slaves or African indentured servants, and the whites, the white, poor whites. If you're white, you could have property, you could vote, you could be a citizen, you had privileges. So this is where we start with the white privileges. And so that divided because now the poor whites saw themselves on the hierarchy here and blacks were here. We're not like them. Well, just a few weeks ago, we were this. And so white supremacy actually crushes its own.

• 55:49Speaker 02

  But there's such an allegiance even from poor whites to whiteness and its privilege, its superiority, it doesn't see that. They actually have more in common with other marginalized groups. Because white supremacy by nature is not just whiteness, but it's wealthy. Right? And that, and it's again, a power struggle. It'll, it'll crush anything that's not in that group.

• 56:14Byron Davis?

  Yeah.

• 56:15Speaker 02

  It'll turn on each other.

• 56:16Byron Davis?

  Hmm.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  Because it's built on greed and avarice, what have you.

• 56:20Byron Davis?

  And when you can have a person who remains nameless, position himself as the blue collar billionaire.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  You can name it.

• 56:32Byron Davis?

  Trump, you know, it's, when you, you have a person who's able to, in his own narrative and his own campaign to the presidency, hijack the, the, the narrative and convince those who are marginalized, who had no, nothing in common with this guy. You know, to then vote and, you know, allow him to be the voice of, of their disenfranchisement, if I, if I can say that, what was brilliant from a marketing standpoint. It was brilliant because he was able to, to do that and then point their angst and their, their anger toward, again, other marginalized groups.

• 57:16Byron Davis?

  I mean, we, we saw, we see this even back in the days of, and I'm not comparing Hitler to Trump by any means, but we can see what, what was it that allowed Hitler to create such a strong narrative that permeated outside of Germany to the rest of the European world? And demonize, you know, the, the Jewish community? Well, it was a narrative of pointing the finger at all of these Jewish, you know, mertens and business owners and saying, they are the reason why you're poor. They are the reason why you don't have opportunity. It's them. And, and that message, that narrative was allowed to, again, echo and echo and echo.

• 58:01Byron Davis?

  And pretty much before you know it, and even the, the Minister of Propaganda, you know, of, of, of the Nazi movement says, if you tell a lie long enough, the masses will believe it.

• 58:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, certainly, he's a master of creating reality out of his own, you know, delusional narrative and energizing his base by putting a face on what that enemy is without expressly saying it, but through every action and everything that comes out of his mouth. It is, you know, gasoline on this fire and, you know, I think it's going to blow up in his face and I think we're seeing that right now. My hope is that this is going to energize young voters to turn out. I mean, just what we're seeing in the streets right now, I've never seen public activism on this level.

• 58:55Rich Roll?

  And so I'm hopeful that change will come in November, but if we've learned anything, these things, there's nothing off the table right now in terms of what could happen. But his ability to leverage that anger and sense of disenfranchisement for his own personal gain and do it under the rubric that he is in their interest is one of the great snake oil hat tricks of all time.

• 59:29Byron Davis?

  Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I was just actually having a conversation with a good friend of mine who happens to be a very right wing conservative Christian. He and I were on a conversation, a long conversation, and I just share, it was a thought experiment. You know, I decided, I asked him, I said, hey, let's do a thought experiment really quickly. He and I were roommates at UCLA freshman year, okay? And he came from Iowa and I'm from inner city East Cleveland, okay? Both coming together and having to room together and learn a lot about each other through this whole, you know, first year in college.

• 1:00:14Byron Davis?

  And I share it with him. I said, hey, look, let's put race aside and let's just look at this from an aspect of privilege. I said, you and I, Were athletes who were blessed to get scholarships to UCLA, correct? And he's like, yes. And I said, well, you know, be honest. Could you have gotten into UCLA on sheerly your SAT scores and your GPA? And he was like, no. Right? And I was like, well, guess what? Join the club. Me too. We were both there, right? Here's a white guy saying the exact same thing. And I said, guess you and I were beneficiaries of the privilege that was extended to us in the form of an athletic scholarship.

• 1:00:58Byron Davis?

  You know, our, our names were, were put higher on the list of admissions because of some perceived value that we were bringing to the university. That's privilege. That's the privilege that you nor I deserved. Yeah, we can both make the argument that we worked hard in the pool. We got faster and, and we, we demonstrated that, that we were good enough to compete at the college level. Sure, that doesn't take away our effort at all. But what we have to really recognize and be honest about is if there was not an infrastructure that valued swimming at the D1 level enough that they were willing to say,

• 1:01:39Byron Davis?

  we would love to give you, you know, equivalent to your tuition and books if you decide to swim with us. If that construct, if that infrastructure didn't exist, we probably wouldn't have been able to get in.

• 1:01:52Rich Roll?

  Hmm. But you might not have put so much energy into being a good swimmer had that opportunity not existed like in your horizon, right?

• 1:02:01Byron Davis?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:02:01Rich Roll?

  You, you might have channeled your energy in a different direction.

• 1:02:04Byron Davis?

  And I kept saying, I should have been a basketball player.

• 1:02:10Rich Roll?

  So that's interesting, though, this idea of how, of how Christianity fits into all of this. And another juxtaposition with how Christianity has been leveraged by the right.

• 1:02:23Rich Roll?

  In a manner that contravenes the core principles of what this religion is founded upon and yourself as a pastor and Byron as a former pastor. Like, let's talk about that. Like, I listened, you did a sermon, like a recent podcast, I'm Not Okay, that I listened to, where you kind of break all this down. And you don't pull punches at all in that, which I appreciated. So where does faith play into this, politically and also spiritually, with respect to the movement that we're seeing at the moment?

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Well, two things. One, I think we have to be honest. We've been deceiving ourselves into thinking that we are practicing the Christianity that's in Scripture. American Christianity looks very differently, and it's intertwined with Americanism, its individualism, capitalism. I just wrote a paper, I think I'm gonna turn it into a book one day, Neoliberal, The Neoliberal Gospel. And it's a business, all right? And we forget about, we forget the fact that we're in a people business, actually. So I think, I think the way we, we live out Christianity,

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  we have to be honest that we're far from, and I'm pretty critical about the church, we're far from, as a group, living out what we see in Scripture. It's very Americanized. But as a pastor, what I'm seeing happening is, I'm seeing trauma. I'm, you said earlier, we witnessed a lynching, a public lynching. I had, I had a guy come up to me once, I preached a sermon, and the last couple of years, almost everywhere I go, I weave in justice into it. I share my grandfather's story. Older white gentleman comes up to me afterwards and says,

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  he's in tears, and he says, I have to confess, you know, my grandfather was, he has pictures in the house. Of him standing in a crowd proudly, smiling in his lynched black body, hanging behind him when he was younger. Or maybe when he was adult, I don't know. He said, "Those pictures are all around the house, were all around my grandfather's house growing up. They were just normal."

• 1:04:54Rich Roll?

  That's crazy.

• 1:04:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's in tears and he's apologizing, but he doesn't know what to do with that. And what I'm seeing in this man, I had to get past my offense to that. And it wasn't hard, I was in pastor, pastor mode, but this man was genuinely in tears, broken. What does a child seeing that, what does that do? Like, our souls aren't meant to see that and be normal. Or experience it, or engage it and be normal. What we saw was a public lynching two weeks ago. That's not normal. To move past that and not address the pain, the woundedness, the trauma, that wouldn't be normal.

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  So for me, I think that we can't, and I see too many people trying to fix the problem. They're trying to rush to fix the problem. Well, how many of us have ever been in a relationship with someone who's wounded? Like deeply, deeply wounded and end up being toxic? Doesn't have to be a romantic relationship, it could be a friendship. They're just toxic, right? Well, they're still dealing with some stuff that they've never addressed in their lives. They've never walked through the healing process. And I think it is critical right now that there be intent, we be intentional as the church, if we say we're about those core principles, that we tend to the wounds

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  of those who witnessed this lynching. And I see too many people in the church, they say nothing about...

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  The murder, their focus is on the, either the looting and the violence there, or their focus is on trying to, um, what's the word I want to look for? Trying to debate against this idea of systemic racism.

• 1:06:47Byron Davis?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  And they weave that into politics, they politicize it.

• 1:06:51Byron Davis?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  They spend more energy there. And these are, I'm, I'm detoxing my social media as we speak. I'm saying, keep posting, keep posting so I'll know who to unfriend. Cause I, I, I don't want that in my, you know.

• 1:07:07Byron Davis?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  I'm detoxing, man, I'm like, you're not even open? Okay, I'm unfriend, cause I don't want that in my feed.

• 1:07:13Byron Davis?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  Right? Maybe I shouldn't unfriend, maybe I should just unfollow, that they could still see my stuff, but I don't have to deal with their stuff.

• 1:07:20Byron Davis?

  Right. Here's something too, just to continue to add, so what, what, what does the church do? Like Phil, I'm, I'm coming down pretty hard on the church. Because if you, if you just look at the life and teachings of Jesus, you can't be so, um, so gripped on your ideological and political beliefs, whether you're from the right or the left, to the point where you forget about what scripture teaches you about how to engage in love your fellow man, your fellow brother and sister.

• 1:08:03Byron Davis?

  I mean, that's, I mean, the, the foundation, you know, and the, the, the message of Jesus and his teachings is love. And if, if you can't start there at all, and I'm not just being like the kumbaya type of, ah, you know, let's, we all get along, I love you, I don't see color. I'm not even talking about that. I, I hope you see color. I want you to see color, I want you to see the differences. Because that's, I think, where the beauty is. What, what, what I think is important is if you care more about your political posturing. And positioning more than you do about being an example and a model, a vessel of the love that Jesus actually died for,

• 1:08:46Byron Davis?

  then your religion is deaf. It's mute. It's dead. Because that's not what he lived and ultimately died for. You know, so that's the voice or that's my my charge and encouragement to the Christian community is, hey, we're supposed to have the playbook to lead through this time right now. Right? We're supposed to be the ones that people can actually look to to see, how do you bring two people who have different ideas, totally different walks of life and come together in a way, in a supernatural miraculous way? I mean, the church should be leading the charge.

• 1:09:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What are the moral and ethical guideposts?

• 1:09:30Byron Davis?

  Right.

• 1:09:31Rich Roll?

  That are going to dictate how we navigate this landfill, right? And I love the example, the analogy of the wounded friend. It's like if you think of a friend who's deeply wounded or has suffered tremendous trauma and use that as a stand-in for the African-American community, how do you interact with that person? Do you come to them and say, well, I'm going to fix you with these three things? And we could talk about, you know, how we need to overhaul policing and police brutality and there's, you know, several steps that we can take towards redressing that. But that's not going to heal that wound overnight.

• 1:10:11Rich Roll?

  You come to a wounded friend with compassion and with understanding and with patience. Not with a motivation to change or to fix, but to understand.

• 1:10:23Byron Davis?

  To your point, I think about the story of the Samaritan man. The man is left on the side of the road to be beaten. Dr. King preaches on this. Brilliant. The African-American community, for the sake of this conversation, is the man left to die on the road. The Samaritan man.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  Well, the church is the priest and the Levite who walk to the other side. Leave him laying there, doesn't want to touch him, just walks to the other side. The Samaritan man is supposedly like this person who's not connected to God, like the priest and the Levite. But this person comes and gets to his knees and tends to the wounds. He's taking a risk because there could be some other robbers hiding out, waiting for the next person to walk on that road. He's taking a risk by tending to this man's wounds. He takes this man and puts this man on his animal while he walks to the end. So he's now sharing resources and he's giving up access to those resources to a degree.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  He gets to the end, he says, here's for his stay till he gets better. And then whatever, if he stays longer, charge it to me, I'll take care of it. Because he has the resources. Now, that should be the church's response for the tending to the wounds part. But then here's the church's other response, and Dr. King brings this out.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  We also should speak to the conditions that allow the road to be conducive for robbers to hide and beat people up in the first place. Because if we don't address that, tomorrow, somebody's going to be back on that road. And robbers are going to be hiding out because the road is conducive for that, the curves and everything, right? If it was modern day, it would be something like, we got to put lighting up on the road so it's not as dark. We got to have patrolmen coming so it scares the robbers. We have to do something to make the road safer for those who are traveling that road.

• 1:12:24Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  Otherwise, we're going to be back in this situation again.

• 1:12:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:36Rich Roll?

  An example of that that comes to mind is what DeRay McKesson is doing with Eight Can't Wait. Are you familiar with this? Like how, you know, he's got these steps and things that. Are, you know, immediately actionable in terms of like changing how policing is done.

• 1:12:52Byron Davis?

  Right.

• 1:12:53Rich Roll?

  And he seems to be at the forefront of addressing that ever since Ferguson.

• 1:12:57Byron Davis?

  Yeah, which I think is a beautiful step and okay, here are some, some handles that you can actually implement and we can hold you accountable and measures that are available to, okay, police departments. What do we do? Well, here's, here are the eight that you can actually look at. Look at how you train your officers. Look at the current rules and, and things that are currently in place that contribute to this type of abuse and power. Um, let's attack those things. Let's address those things. You know, we don't want to put policemen in harms way e- anymore than they, they are currently. That's not the intent of, of reconstructing this whole thing.

• 1:13:40Byron Davis?

  It's to look at which of these things are not working. I mean, if we were looking at a business, right? And a business decided to, to launch a startup, decides to launch, they create a software and all. What do, what do they recognize inherently in the process? They have a, a minimum viable product that they know is not going to fly completely and perfectly when they release it to market, right? They, they, they, they release it knowing full well that when the system begins to be in contact with reality, bugs are going to show up. But they also, in addition to that, have a plan of rapid implementation, rapid ideation to improve the system.

• 1:14:23Byron Davis?

  That's the type of mindset we need to have when we're talking about our judicial system, when we're talking about our policing system. Is recognize that, hey, the, what you have in place, okay, it's a good start. You may have been well-intended in these rules and regulations and structures. But we see that the real world is showing where this stuff is dysfunctional. Let's change that. Let's, let's implement rapid, uh, you know, um.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  Tooling to improve what's there. And I think eight can't wait is a great suggestion and a great step in doing that because police departments who've already put that into effect, we're seeing positive benefits. We're seeing decrease and senseless police killings.

• 1:15:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think what's great about it is that it's not about rhetoric. It's data driven. So it's not just, we need to defund the police. Like, what does that even mean? I mean, I understand that's an emotional reaction to seeing a militarized police state that does nothing but instill fear and exacerbate whatever violence, you know, is happening on the street. But to actually look at the statistics and say, what are the levers that we can pull that will actually make a difference? And some of them are counterintuitive. Like, I heard him talking about it on a podcast the other day, where you would think like, well, you know, if you just hire more black police officers, that'll solve it. But they realized that that

• 1:15:47Rich Roll?

  isn't effective until they reach something like 34% of the police department being black, or, you know, instituting psychological, you know, psych training, or whatever. Like, they found out that that's really not that. Like, things that you think might work actually don't. But looking at the data can show you, like, oh, but these simple things that every police department can do, actually could make a huge difference in reducing fatality rates and all of the abuse instances.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. Is there any part of eight can't wait that suggests those who are in power, those who are, have the power to, I don't know, who would it be, but captains and commissioners? Because if they've already bought into the previous ideology, that actually has been passed on since the 1800s?

• 1:16:40Byron Davis?

  When policing was designed to patrol the slaves and protect the property of the wealthy, that's been passed on. So if they've bought into that and that's who they are, we're asking them to buy into something that is foreign to them.

• 1:16:59Rich Roll?

  Right. It's checks and balances on individuals and systems in which there is a systemic problem, right? These are good solutions, but you're speaking to the broader problem of dealing with the systemic aspect of it. And that goes to the psychology of the people that are administering these departments as well.

• 1:17:19Byron Davis?

  Right. I was talking to another person, a police officer, and we were just talking about, this was actually a while back, and we were just talking about the emotional health of police officers going into and having their life be, every time they step out of the door, it's depending on their beat, you know, it isn't known whether or not they're going to come home. All right? So that's the reality that they live in. And he and I, in our conversation, he was sharing, well, here are some things that I think we need to improve. And I thought it was really interesting. He said, number one, some of the systemic issues for police officers, number one, good

• 1:17:59Byron Davis?

  cops have to actually be supported and protected enough to call out bad cops. You know, when you have a fraternity and a subculture within the precincts themselves, where a good cop doesn't feel safe in actually calling out and holding accountable a bad cop, that's dysfunction in the system that needs to change.

• 1:18:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:24Byron Davis?

  On top of that, you have to have a support system where, again, we're not even going to get into, you know, the domestic violence of police officers, the drug and alcohol abuse that's systemic, and you see the divorce rate that you see from police officers. All of these things are, again, flare-up conditions that are coming as a result of a dysfunctional system. So, you know, I'm all for, and we support, you know, police officers. So this rhetoric of, you know, you gotta be for the blue. If you're protesting, then you're not supporting our police officers. We gotta get past that.

• 1:19:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:05Byron Davis?

  You know, it's no, let's look at the system. In which these guys and gals have to work. And let's be honest about how can we go about helping them win. And this then also, in addition to what I've just listed, also includes, you know, their sense and their fear of African American males. I mean, there is a huge subconscious. I mean, I've experienced it my whole life and, and, and actually Phil and I were talking about this. And I, and, and if you look at, I, I've shared this before. And that is, there is a secret language that all African American men and women who work in, you know, the white collar sector have learned to speak.

• 1:19:50Byron Davis?

  And I'm not just talking about being able to speak our, um, you know, be proper and articulate. I'm talking about, there is a way that when we walk into a boardroom, when we walk into an environment, when we walk down the street and a white woman is approaching us, we've learned how to signal to them that, hey, we're friendly.

• 1:20:10Rich Roll?

  You're safe.

• 1:20:10Byron Davis?

  We're safe.

• 1:20:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:11Byron Davis?

  You know?

• 1:20:12Rich Roll?

  You're a non, you're, you're a non-threatening.

• 1:20:13Byron Davis?

  We're a non-threat.

• 1:20:14Rich Roll?

  You're not an angry black man.

• 1:20:16Byron Davis?

  Exactly. You know what? That, that is real.

• 1:20:19Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:19Byron Davis?

  And, and so, uh, those things have to be addressed. And again, uh, the onus has to, a lot of the onus has to fall on, uh, white America and not being so fragile in those, in that context.

• 1:20:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:20:34Byron Davis?

  And, and be willing to step up and be willing to, hey, if I'm passionately arguing my point across a boardroom table, don't dismiss it as an angry black man. No, uh, let's rigorously argue and deal with the points that I'm ringing up. Because if my counterpart, who happens to be white, is just as adamant, just as, as committed in expressing their point of view on this, on a particular issue, they're going to get a pass on that.

• 1:21:02Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:03Byron Davis?

  You know, they're, this just, they're gonna, they're gonna probably walk away from the meeting. Wow, he was, he was really, really, you know, excited about, you know, his, his, his idea.

• 1:21:13Rich Roll?

  Passionate.

• 1:21:14Byron Davis?

  He's passionate.

• 1:21:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Byron Davis?

  Right? Not angry.

• 1:21:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that double standard.

• 1:21:18Byron Davis?

  Right.

• 1:21:20Rich Roll?

  It's exhausting. It's gotta be exhausting, right?

• 1:21:22Byron Davis?

  I was just, I was just, I was just saying, yeah, some days, I just don't care.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  When I'm going running and I have to think about when I see that white woman, she hasn't realized she has more power in this situation. I'm more nervous than she is. Because if she says anything, she's going to get the benefit of the doubt. And sometimes you're just tired. You just, you know, being in, when you work in a mega church, I'm not there now, but when you work in a mega church, it's like working in a big company. And it's the same thing. And it's, it's you have to think about it. You have to consider it. And it's mentally draining. And some days you just don't care. Some days I want to be really, really passionate. And I just don't care what you think, you know? But then you can't be like that all the time. So you got to monitor that.

• 1:22:15Speaker 02

  And it's just those little microaggressions that, if we look at, you said 10,000 feet, let's look at where we are, going back to earlier. If you look at everything, the fatigue, the anger, it's about all of this are what we're talking about. It's about the microaggressions. It's about being in the workplace and my voice is muted by everyone else's voice is heard. It's about being in the grocery store or in a store and being surveilled, having the surveillance. We call it the white gaze. It's about.

• 1:22:50Rich Roll?

  Like a hyper vigilance everywhere you go.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  It's like walking into Starbucks and the guy over there just sitting, he's just staring at you. And you're like, okay. You know, and you feel the eyes on you. Or the guy that almost hit me purposely coming out of Whole Foods a few months back. Purposely, like he came within inches, did not slow down, didn't stop. Well, he slowed down, but he didn't stop. And he tried to make it seem like he knew I'd already cleared. But I'm inches away from your car.

• 1:23:22Rich Roll?

  Right, and just those daily occurrences just getting put into the file cabinet,

• 1:23:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:23:27Rich Roll?

  You know, week after week after week. I think that what's so special and unique about right now is we're seeing every flavor and color of that kind of experience writ large on social media because the most impactful, and you're a filmmaker, but the most impactful and powerful filmmaking that we're seeing right now is what's coming out of everybody's cellphone.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:23:53Rich Roll?

  You know, from the birder in Central Park with that woman and the encounter that they had, from the cops that knocked over that elderly white man in Buffalo, and then all the police officers that, you know, resigned in their omerta to those guys being fired.

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:24:11Rich Roll?

  And everything in between, from the police, the good police officers who, you know, took a knee or marched with the protesters, the bad behavior, the good behavior, and we're having conversations about it.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:24Rich Roll?

  That can't be a bad thing. This boil is being lanced, it's out in the open right now, and we have this extraordinary opportunity to leverage the energy around this to actually do some good with lasting change.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  It's interesting you brought that up with the cops taking the knee. It goes back to coming to the table and relinquishing of power, where those who are protesting, you know, it could be a young girl, it could be a small petite woman that's fiery, she's holding on to whatever power she has, but that cop has to be willing to relinquish power, and he may get backlash that you're showing a sign of weakness, but you notice whenever they do that, it's usually peaceful, it's usually some reckons, it's usually something that shifts the tenor of the protest, right? But that was him, or whoever they are, coming to the table at that moment, and the willingness

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  to relinquish some power and humble themselves and say, you know what, I get it. I'm still gonna be a cop. I get it, but I'm gonna kneel with you. And it's meeting them where they are. And they see, now they're no longer threatened by your power. And that's, that was, I think that's a perfect example of what I was talking about. Coming to the table, i- if that can happen behind the scenes, when you're coming up with legislation, or police reform, or institutional reform in companies, corporations, if that can happen, then you'll see some significant change, right?

• 1:25:54Byron Davis?

  And lasting change.

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  Lasting change, but that, those power dynamics are at play.

• 1:25:58Byron Davis?

  Yeah. And you also mentioned the example of elderly gentleman being pushed over by the police officers. You know, if you look at that tape, I think also, I think it's a great snapshot of the systemic dysfunction as well.

• 1:26:13Rich Roll?

  There's the one guy who wanted to help them.

• 1:26:16Byron Davis?

  Right, he was on duty and he had, his orders were to march forward. He, in his humanity, recognized that what just happened. And in his humanity, wanted to stop to help him. But his, whoever was the commanding officer at that time, or whoever, literally physically said, "No, you continue to march forward." That, I think, again, it tells a strong story of just how insidious, how complicated, yet how urgent the problem we're facing is. And, and we have to be willing to stop looking at the status quo, or looking at, you know, our job as, as normal, as, as usual,

• 1:27:01Byron Davis?

  and start, again, challenging what is not working. And taking the time to figure out, how can we do it better? My, my, my hope, and, and, and my encouragement is, I, I believe we can. You know, I believe that we are intelligent enough, and we are compassionate enough.

• 1:27:24Byron Davis?

  To actually make inroads and solve this thing. I truly do. But it's going to take courageous voices and a staying power that will allow us to eventually get escape velocity. One, get off the ground, and then two, escape velocity, and fight through all of that natural resistance that we've been talking about this whole time to the point where we get to an inflection point that then allows this thing to really take on a life of its own. We're nowhere near that yet. And so this gravitational pull is the area that we're in, and we have to just understand that and recognize we're in for a fight.

• 1:28:06Byron Davis?

  So let's buckle up, let's lock arms, and let's stay committed.

• 1:28:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it's going to require an appreciation of the incredible complexity of all of it, too. When you were speaking there, I was thinking about the situation in Flint where the, was it the chief? And the cops were marching with the protesters. And a distinguishing factor there, at least according to my understanding, is that the police officers live in the community there. Whereas, due to socioeconomic disparity, a lot of police officers can't afford to live in the communities in which they police, which creates a lack of connectivity to the people that they're supposed to be protecting and serving.

• 1:28:51Byron Davis?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:52Rich Roll?

  Right? So that's just another, like, layer or issue that needs to be unpacked and addressed that goes, you know, that's almost beyond, like, how do we solve economic disparity? So that, you know, police officers can live in the same area where they're patrolling? Like, these problems are huge, right?

• 1:29:10Byron Davis?

  They're huge, huge. And I like what, I mean, Phil has a program, I call them the four L's, and we'll speak to that a little bit more. And you talk about, okay, what do we do now? You know, the eight can't wait, I think, is a great start.

• 1:29:27Rich Roll?

  Right, which is, I think, is a subset of Campaign Zero.

• 1:29:30Byron Davis?

  Campaign Zero, exactly, exactly. Great website, and there's some other, I can't think of it right now, but resources. But those are two great resources that I think people can go to. And look at, okay, what can I do now where I'm at? Because a lot of people feel defenseless. A lot of people feel hopeless and don't feel like their voice counts or what they do would actually matter. And that's not the case. And so hopefully in the show notes, we'll be able to, you know, give links to organizations that are bipartisan and that are just, they're boots on the ground, really trying to figure this thing out. I think would be important. But Phil, can you speak to just the four Ls that kind of helps people walk through this process?

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've heard a couple of those Ls, the listen and the learn. You hear that all the time. Just a little background. We were watching a film in class four years ago, MLK class, and they showed Emmett Till. And that's when I first realized, wait a minute, Emmett Till reminds me of my grandfather. My grandfather's body would have probably looked like that. And we broke up into small groups and I shared with my two classmates, I can't see Emmett Till without seeing my grandfather. And it kind of shocked them. So they were intently listening to me. They were in a context where they were learning

• 1:30:55Speaker 02

  from a Korean MLK scholar, Hakjun Lee, about an African-American pastor, scholar, theologian, MLK. So they were listening and learning. That was happening at the same time. They were learning from my story, but they were learning theology and ethics, Christian theology and ethics about Dr. King from a Korean man, from people of color. But what shocked me, what never happened before, I'd never seen this, was when they began to cry.

• 1:31:27Speaker 02

  I'd never seen a white person moved or feel for mine or my people's pain as relates to racism.

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  They were in tears, to the point where one kid said, "As you see your grandfather in Emmett Till, I see my grandfather in the men who killed him." And that's a huge, that's huge, right? Then I shared with the whole class, the whole class, not the whole class, but many people in the class began to just be in tears. And so, I just wanted to document what I had experienced in that class that day. And I said, "They were listening, they were learning, they lamented." And for me, in this journey to what do we do? That's the soul work that needs to happen. That makes up the soul work, but the inner work. Because we can jump into fixing stuff and compound the issue because we don't understand the issue, we don't understand the depth of the pain,

• 1:32:23Speaker 02

  we don't feel it, we're just in here trying to fix a problem that we think we can take care of real quick. Then it's the labor. And the reason why the lament part is so important, I don't know anybody who sustains something that's, that causes change without passion, without a burden, without something in the gut that drives them, right? So now the labor, but the labor is depending on context, the person's influence, their relationships, who they had, you know, it depends on where they are in their life. So like, somebody could have a platform, a huge platform.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  So their labor could be, as you said earlier, bringing, making sure it's diverse voices, or black voices have a platform, she's sharing a platform, whatever. A teacher, like at my school, some of them are now forced to relearn some of their theological positions, perspectives. They're being challenged by people of color, the perspectives of color. So now they're having to diversify their reading lists and their curriculums. Schools are now having to bring in, change up the dynamics of their administration, their board of trustees. These are some things that need to happen. But those things won't be sustained without the inner work, the listening, learning, the lamenting.

• 1:33:51Speaker 02

  And so, the labor part, it depends on context where you are. For somebody, it could mean joining an organization in your local community that is doing the work of social justice. For somebody else, it could be funding. As well as how you handle your social media platform, being responsible there. I mean, it could mean a number of things. And I tell people in the church, it starts, your labor should start with prayer. If I'm praying for this daily, you need to be praying for this daily, too.

• 1:34:24Byron Davis?

  And again, on the labor part as well, another high profile example is the co-founder of Reddit. You know, deciding to-

• 1:34:33Rich Roll?

  Right, I saw that.

• 1:34:34Byron Davis?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:34Rich Roll?

  Alexis Ohanian.

• 1:34:35Byron Davis?

  Yeah, Ohanian says, you know what, okay, I recognize my privilege. I recognize the position that I'm in. I'm going to, you know, again, he was more of a head of a chair role and things of that nature. But he's like, I am going to use this as an opportunity to remove myself and then strongly recommend that an African American person be put in this place, not in some affirmative action type way, you know, but, but recognizing that, hey, look, this is something that I'm going to be a part of the solution and not a part of the problem through my complicitness or my, because I don't know what I can do, decide to remain frozen and do nothing. He's like, I'm going to try this, I'm going to do this, and this is an example, but I'm

• 1:35:18Byron Davis?

  also going to call out anyone else who is in a, in a position where they can purposely and willfully render or give over to them the power that's necessary to right the ship faster. You know, those moves have to continue to, to take place as well. And again, this isn't about, you know, giving black people something that they don't deserve or unqualified for, because you hear that argument, too. You hear that argument against affirmative action. You hear that argument again, a lot of these different problems. Well, you know, these people aren't, not really qualified to do this, so that's unfair that they would take a spot from someone who's more deserving. Not even getting into all of that.

• 1:36:00Byron Davis?

  Well, what I'm, what I, the point that I really want to highlight is, no, there are enough qualified African Americans, and if you want to even broaden it out, other minority groups who are just as capable of excelling in that role. But if your networks aren't healthy enough, so that when you go through the hiring process, most of those jobs in influential positions are done through network. It's the buddy system. All right? And then they kick the tires through HR, right? But they've, the people have been hired. I mean, I've had that experience. We know that that's how it works. Until your network becomes diversified. And I would challenge, I used to challenge executives and pastors this.

• 1:36:44Byron Davis?

  I said, if you're in a hiring position and there's a role that needs to be hired for, but it's an important role, what do you normally do? And they, they normally pick up the phone and they start calling their buddies.

• 1:36:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, who's good.

• 1:36:58Byron Davis?

  Right? Who's good? Who do you got? Who do you know? And then I say, well, you know, the first five people you call, think about it. Think about your first five people in your, your Rolodex or your, your contacts list. Now, I get them to think about it. And then I say, all right, now, what color are they? If all five of those people who you would pick up the phone and call, their first five calls, all of them look like you, recognize that in that moment, you're still now perpetuating the problem. Because you're only exhausting and exploring a network that's going to continue to produce the same thing. Instead, why not, in this time, actively begin to diversify your network? It could even start there.

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  This, this guy from Reddit, I don't know if he should, if he should have done that.

• 1:37:50Speaker 02

  I don't know, because if he removes himself, he's already an advocate. He removes himself and brings in this black guy. Is this black guy gonna be at the table by himself? With no other voice advocating with him? So rather than removing himself from the table, I think they should add more seats to the table. I think that because I don't want to come into a context where the guy that was just advocating for me, he leaves, and I find myself there.

• 1:38:17Byron Davis?

  Now, you're the target.

• 1:38:18Speaker 02

  And no one, no one else really feels the way he feels. Now I'm fighting a battle, but he's gone.

• 1:38:24Rich Roll?

  Well, the argument that gets thrown around is that this is a performance of white guilt for the purpose of virtue signaling.

• 1:38:32Byron Davis?

  Mm-hmm. And that's where the pendulum can't swing the other way. White guilt of doing that, it's like, but here's where I extend a lot of grace. It's almost like you look at a kid who's just learning how to ride a bike. If they have a commitment and intent to learn to ride this bike, right? The initial push off is gonna look rocky, it's gonna look shaky, and it's not gonna look pretty, and they're gonna make a lot of mistakes, they're gonna fall. I see a lot of movements and gestures, just like I see that. Out of the gate, it's not gonna be necessarily right and pretty, and it could error on the side of white guilt. But let's not demonize it. Let's not throw it away.

• 1:39:15Byron Davis?

  But instead, let's just, again, continue to solve for the problem. So, you know, it's outcome thinking versus process thinking. If we just think about the process, we'll get overwhelmed, and we'll get discouraged, and we'll shut down. But if we think, okay, everything that we do, everything that we test, everything that we apply, it always has to be laid against the outcome, the desired result we want. And make informed decisions based upon how well we're moving in that direction. I think that is the, that's the momentum, that's the posture, that's the flow I think we need to be able to be in and sustain.

• 1:39:52Speaker 02

  But, but I also think that if you, if we don't rush... If we don't move too quickly, we can avoid many of those mistakes. So when we talk about listen, learn, lament, part of that is to give the space of processing. So we're not out of the gate trying to, you know, swing the pendulum to the other side and just right the ship right away. That's the whole point of that process. And I shared that yesterday on my social media. Slow down. Like, we just experienced trauma, all of us. Experienced trauma. So there're gonna be those decisions that are made to right the ship. And they're gonna, and some of them are gonna compound the issue. But if we, if we

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  process this thing together, slow down. And I would say, listen to the voices of color. We'll make less mistakes. We won't come out of the gate exacerbating the problem.

• 1:40:52Rich Roll?

  But isn't the fear that we can't allow this energy and this momentum to dissipate?

• 1:40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is the fear, but I don't think, I don't think it will. I'm not saying we don't do anything. I'm just saying, let's not try to, like, fix everything right away.

• 1:41:10Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:41:12Speaker 02

  In that processing, we'll make wiser decisions. Now, this is where, as a pastor, I share, you know, this is where I'm allowing God to lead me. This is where I'm allowing, not just lead me, but us in, in community as we wrestle with things. Like even right now, as we're talking, we're, we're processing. We have different, maybe some different views and, and suggestions and stuff like that. But in this context, there can come, there can be something, we can give birth to something. Right? So the process doesn't have to be long. I mean, it could be weeks, it could be a matter of weeks, but it just, like, take, take our time and, and let's, let's, let's do this together rather than trying to fix it. Because we're not gonna fix it right away. This is, I don't believe that this gets fixed in my generation. I'm a cynic.

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  I believe we can make it better for the next generation. And when I say generation, maybe in my lifetime, the next generation. Those Gen Zs. They have a better starting point. Everything I do is not for me or for us necessarily. It's for my niece. It's for my godson. So when they're older, they don't have to have the same conversation. They may have some conversations, but not the same conversations. So that's why I'm thinking it's critical that we don't, we don't try to fix it today. I don't think we'll lose the urgency. I think, uh, cause again, I'm not saying wait until like next year or anything like that. I'm just saying, let's just make sure we're, we're taking the right steps.

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  I believe the healing part is, is critical, man. I, I think making certain decisions from a, from a hurt, angry or, or traumatized space can actually make the problem worse. Um, and so I think really tending to that. Because the civil rights movement. The work that they put in. Even before it started, the work that they put in behind the scenes. The women before King even came on board. There, the ship was already rolling. And then he comes on board and he's this dynamic personality. But even every step of the way. Every week, every month, they were strategizing, they were meeting, praying, strategizing.

• 1:43:28Speaker 02

  And so if they can do that and give us a model, then I think we can do the same thing. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:43:33Byron Davis?

  Yeah, and, and I, I agree with you on that. I think what I would like to add, at least highlight is, um, I, I think it's and both. I think the waiting, the allows the healing. Cause I think that's, I mean, that's, that's the point. We, we, I think all agree to that. That's important. The lamenting part of the, the, the four Ls. You've got listen, you've got learn, you've got lament, you know, which is mourning. Uh, many times you, you have people from different sides. They'll have to mourn the, the power and the, the supremacy, the white supremacy that they didn't know they were perpetuating. Okay, they, how the world was, the way they thought, the, is different.

• 1:44:15Byron Davis?

  So definitely, I think that is, that is a necessary part and process. But more, I mean pragmatically, I, I, I see it as and both. Yeah, that's, that's. Right, yeah, we, we don't want to rush things so that we make a lot of, you know, unforced errors, so to speak. But at the same time, I think we, we continue to move in ways and, and if things happen and they make mistakes, let's not demonize. That's the point that I wanted to really highlight is, okay, if something happens and someone, I mean, we, we see this in administrations all the time. Uh, you know, you go into the Affordable Care Act, right? And this thing rolls out and it was far from perfect, far from perfect.

• 1:44:58Byron Davis?

  Uh, but instead of, again, seeing it as a rollout and then identifying what works, what doesn't, and then changing, um, political parties demonize and, and want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And we see that happening over and over again, from the left to the right, right to the left. We see it in social groups, uh, different dynamics. I just keep wanting to advocate that can't be our approach because, like you said, Rich, the problem is too, too complex for us to have lazy logic in this and be stuck in our silos so much that we spend more energy defending our point than solving the problem.

• 1:45:39Rich Roll?

  Another, switching gears a little bit, another narrative that's out there is that this problem is not for black people to solve, it's for white people to solve. So what is the role of white America in redressing this, other than, you know, that you talked about the L's and we need to educate people, we need to appreciate the complexity of this, we need time to heal, we need, you know, uh, a longer conversation that isn't bifurcated around political lines? Like, how do we, how does, how do the, the white people listening to this wrap their heads around how they can be?

• 1:46:20Rich Roll?

  A most productive member of this movement.

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  I think, you know, I go back and forth because I believe that it's voices of color that need to lead because we feel it. You know, this idea, you can't lead me someplace you've never been, or you can't give to me what you've never had.

• 1:46:46Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent. It would just, it's preposterous to think otherwise.

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  So, so there's a learning from voices of color. But I think taking the power and the privilege and being a part of helping to reach the white, the broader white community. I think right now, that's, that's, whether it's in government, those congressmen and women using their positions to reach them, family members on the family level, reaching them in the corporate, in corporations, reaching them. I think because we can't reach them. Our job, we can share, we can put pressure on, we can protest, we can, we can do all these things, we can write books, but they're not going to listen to us necessarily.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  So I think one way, this is just one, it's not the only way, this is one, one thing is, I ask, you know, white friends, you have to be the voice to reach the people that we're not going to be able to reach on all these levels, wherever your influence is. That's, that's one way because I don't know what else we can do. I really don't. If you look at literature, you look at music, you look at movies, you look at marches. We've done it peacefully, we've done it angrily, we've kneeled, we've knelt, we've fist in the air, we've used our bodies in ways that that's how, we didn't, that's one of the primary

• 1:48:18Speaker 02

  resources we have, our bodies. We've done everything we know to do and we're still here. Not just incidents, but a culture, right?

• 1:48:31Speaker 02

  I think it takes the white allies, or whatever word you want to use for that, to be the voices advocating in solidarity to the white community because they're not going to listen to us necessarily. Not all, some will, but the masses won't listen to us.

• 1:48:48Byron Davis?

  Yeah, to add to that, I think that's a great point. You know, we talk about Dr. Martin Luther King during the civil rights movement, and we forget about another voice that was even more demonized, but I think was as equally an integral part in advancing, was Malcolm X, right? And even to this day, you know, that name is still demonized, and a lot of people, when they hear that name, they're immediately, you know, fearful because of what he stood for. But what people, what is less known about him, especially in the

• 1:49:24Byron Davis?

  tail end of his movement and his platform, was he, you know, saw and started to bring different nationalities and cultures together. And he shared something that I think is important, and it speaks to your question, about what do white people do in this movement? And one thing he recognized is, right now, of course, everybody's binging Netflix. There's a Netflix, or no, I think it's on HBO, but The Defiant Ones. It's a four-part episode

• 1:50:04Byron Davis?

  or series on the relationship between Dr. Dre and Jimmy Iovine, right? Two moguls in the hip-hop or the music industry, and how they come together, and how, you know, they're taking over the world with Beez and Apple and all that stuff, right? Well, interesting, and the point that Malcolm X really tried to highlight, that I see illustrated in their relationship, is at some point, that Jimmy Iovine saw and recognized the talent and the ability of Dr. Dre. And it wasn't a posture of, let me reach back and down and pull this guy up. It was never that. What it was, was, wait a minute, I see and

• 1:50:47Byron Davis?

  identify in Dr. Dre, the same love and passion and raw talent and ability, even better than my own. And I'm going to actually use my in to nurture and cultivate this guy. That whole relationship is powerful. We need more of that because here you had Jimmy Iovine, who was already on the in, who himself, you know, came from modest backgrounds. But then, at the height of his power, recognizing someone else and saying, let me mentor, let me... And it wasn't, again, this back and down. It wasn't charity.

• 1:51:32Byron Davis?

  He saw how he could make money with Dr. Dre, right? I mean, he saw that this guy was valuable. But this guy also needs a seat at the table and needs to be coached.

• 1:51:42Rich Roll?

  But not in an exploitive way, is what you're saying.

• 1:51:44Byron Davis?

  Exactly, right. Not in a partnership way. And in a way that's loving, too. Because not to spoil or, you know, to spoil whoever wants to watch it. But you saw in the narrative of Dr. Dre's life, many missteps. That, you know, it's like, wow, he could have blown it up here, he could have blown it up here and here. He still had a guy who was like, look, I'm all in with you because I see the value.

• 1:52:14Rich Roll?

  So extrapolating on that, the message that you're trying to convey, like distill that down to the point that relates to Malcolm X.

• 1:52:23Byron Davis?

  So the point that, thank you for actually helping me bring it. The point is Malcolm X recognized the importance of white people in power, aligning themselves with black people and sharing the power.

• 1:52:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:52:37Byron Davis?

  And not doing it in a way that it's charity, not doing it in a way that it's what we're deeming as white guilt. But actually taking the time to recognize, seeing the humanity of another person, and recognizing in the backdrop of inequality, I'm gonna ride with this person.

• 1:52:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:52:58Byron Davis?

  Come hail the high water.

• 1:52:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I got it. One of the differentiating factors between what's happening now and the civil rights movement of the late 1960s is that there is no Malcolm X or Martin Luther King. We don't have a singular voice to galvanize the movement around. But at the same time, there's...

• 1:53:26Rich Roll?

  A lot of interesting voices out there right now. They're just more dispersed. It's not as centralized as before. And I've, I found myself wondering like, would it be better if there was one person that we're kind of pivoting around? I mean, that's, doesn't seem to be the reality right now, but maybe one of the things we can kind of wind this conversation down with is who are those interesting voices out there if people want to broaden their, you know, information silo to expose themselves to interesting people of color?

• 1:53:59Speaker 02

  I, I think of Ta-Nehisi Coates.

• 1:54:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I just listened to him on Ezra Klein's podcast the other day. It was amazing.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I think he, he, uh, he's a voice that, that has to be seriously considered and listened to. But I think, I don't know if we'll ever really go back to that model.

• 1:54:19Speaker 02

  You know, in our community, we, we say every time we have a leader, they kill them. On some level.

• 1:54:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:27Speaker 02

  I don't know why I'm. Yeah, no. That's not funny. It's laughing to release the pain. It's sad, but true. But, but either physically kill them or their, their character, their reputation, they'll find a way. And then that, that kills the whole movement because we've put everything around this one central voice.

• 1:54:46Rich Roll?

  Good point.

• 1:54:47Speaker 02

  And so when you have multiple voices, and I think it's important, um, if you have multiple voices, you have someone who has an expertise in this area. They can bring that to the table. You have someone over here who has an expertise in this area and they can bring that to the table. I'm trying to think of, um, my whole library is just going through my head and everything's.

• 1:55:08Rich Roll?

  If you can't think of anybody now, if you got, maybe you guys email me and I'll put it in the show notes.

• 1:55:12Speaker 02

  Willie Jennings is phenomenal. He's a theologian. He's phenomenal. Um, he has a book called The Christian Imagination. He has a controversial lecture. It's controversial if you just look at the title. It's called Can White People Be Saved? And he's not talking about white people in terms necessarily ethnicity, but he's talking about ideology. Where we talk about white supremacy and people who subscribe to that even subconsciously. But it's, he breaks down whiteness and its impact on the whole world from colonialism to now. And he does it theologically. J. Cameron Carter is another theologian that's brilliant.

• 1:55:57Speaker 02

  He was at Duke, you know, he's at Indiana University, I believe. So there are a number of voices and many of them don't get as much airplay as they should. But these guys are brilliant. I think of, ah, who did I, I think I shared a name, a female, a woman. Well, Angela Rye, I love Angela Rye. She's brilliant as well. Very outspoken. I'll send you.

• 1:56:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay. Byron, does anyone come to mind?

• 1:56:27Byron Davis?

  Well, you know, actually, I actually agree with Phil when you're saying that. I think the model has to be slightly different. There needs to be a hybrid model moving forward. I don't think there will be one person to galvanize and be that one voice. But, and this is my crazy creative side coming out. When I look at movements and organisms and how you see systems operate autonomously, but continue to thrive and exist. For example, you look at, let's say, again, this is crazy. See, pull me back in if I go too far.

• 1:57:06Byron Davis?

  But you look at paleo, you look at, you know, the raw, you look at movements like, you know, Plant Strong, Plant Based. There isn't just one person who everyone is following and keeping those movements alive. No, it's a concept, it's an ideology, but it is a framework by which people by themselves can take ownership of and then create a lifestyle around it. And they, in doing that, they can augment that with resources from other voices. So their education or their thirst for knowledge and mastery is what drives the movement.

• 1:57:52Byron Davis?

  With them and then you have that happening collectively among thousands and millions of people and that's what allows a movement to exist. I truly believe that is what's going to have to take place in this is that at some point at the fundamental personal level, everyone's going to have to say, this is going to become a lifestyle for me. And then as I come up against blocks or roadblocks or confusion, that's when I'm going to reach out and I'm going to listen to voices that I think are credible and then I'm going to take, like my old pastor used to say, you know, he says, taking advice is like eating chicken. He says, you, you eat the meat, throw the bones away. You know, and that's, you know, kind of funny, but, but that's, that's, I think, the mentality that we have to have.

• 1:58:33Byron Davis?

  We have to say, I'm going to take personal ownership of it and I'm going to live it out regardless of what other people think and say or do. And I'm going to purposely orient my life where I'm going to keep educating myself in this lifestyle, in this way of life so that I'm better at it and then ultimately I'm blessing and impacting in a positive way, the lives around me.

• 1:58:55Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Beautifully put, man. Beautifully put. Well, I think we should, uh, put a pin in it. I think we, we covered a lot of ground here. I do want to point out that a good place for people to start, especially if you want to learn more about Phil is to read your, your recent blog post, This is America. I thought that was super powerful.

• 1:59:14Byron Davis?

  Thank you.

• 1:59:15Rich Roll?

  And you basically, you, you, once again, not mincing words, like you just break down this whole situation in, in a way that, um, I think is, is powerful, but also, um, digestible for anybody to read. Uh, so any final thoughts before we enter today?

• 1:59:35Byron Davis?

  Well, I wanted to, I, I love you, Rich. You're, you're a brother from another mother. We, you know, I just, just your heart. And for allowing us on the podcast and just again, having this kind of conversation and just seeing you and your heart and the steadfastness of the mission you're on with the platform you've been given and that you're blessed to cultivate. Thank you. Thank you, because I think that this, these are the sorts of things that need to happen.

• 2:00:05Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that.

• 2:00:06Byron Davis?

  Consistently.

• 2:00:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thanks, man. I'm just, you know, I'm, I'm doing this as imperfectly as anybody and trying to learn as I go. Like, I'm doing this for my own personal edification as much for, for anything else. And, you know, it's incumbent upon me, just like it is for everybody else, to try to be as open-minded, to humble ourselves and, and to, and to, you know, broaden our aperture on all of this. So, I really appreciate you guys coming here today and sharing openly and honestly and from the heart, your experience and your perspective. And I hope you guys come back and talk to me a little bit more.

• 2:00:40Byron Davis?

  I appreciate being here, man. This was, this was good. It was good for me. You say, what can white people do? I think you're doing it. You're sharing the, at the table, we're sitting at an actual table. But it feels like a partnership in this conversation, you know what I mean? And I think that's important. Yeah.

• 2:01:02Rich Roll?

  Thanks. Appreciate that. All right. So, if you're digging on these guys, the best way to track them down and find them, Phil Allen Jr. on Twitter and Facebook.

• 2:01:16Byron Davis?

  And Instagram.

• 2:01:17Rich Roll?

  And Phil, PhilAllenJr.com as well, right?

• 2:01:20Byron Davis?

  Yep.

• 2:01:21Rich Roll?

  And Byron?

• 2:01:22Byron Davis?

  Byron.cc.

• 2:01:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Byron.cc. I like that. Thanks, you guys. I appreciate it. And I, I hope that you continue your advocacy.

• 2:01:30Byron Davis?

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 2:01:32Rich Roll?

  All right. Peace.

• 2:01:36Rich Roll?

  So that happened. We did that. How'd it go down for you? How was it? How are you feeling? Maybe let it sink in, you guys. Let it steep, people. Please check out the show notes on the episode page where I have enumerated a large catalog of resources, articles, books, films, and nonprofits related to today's discussion. Check out Phil's documentary, Open Wounds. It's on Vimeo On Demand. And his spoken word poetry on YouTube. And let these gentlemen know how this conversation landed for you. You can do that on the socials. You can find Byron @ByronDavis1 on Instagram, and Phil is @PhilAlanJrig

• 2:02:21Rich Roll?

  on Instagram, and @PhilAlanJR on Twitter. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Subscribe on YouTube, you guys. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. Thanks to everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiello for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing today's show and creating all the clips we share on social media. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Ally Rogers for portraits. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. DK for advertiser relationships and theme music. By Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis.

• 2:03:04Rich Roll?

  By the way, Tyler is working on some new music. We might even have a new intro theme song. Oh, my God. I know that makes people really scared, but I think it might be time to try something new. Tyler's working on some cool stuff, so I hope to share that with you in the coming weeks. In the meantime, thank you for the love, you guys. I appreciate you. I will see you back here in a couple days. When is it? Actually, next week. This is the only episode this week. So I'll see you back here next week with another amazing episode. And until then, may the wisdom of today's conversation sink in, and may we all step into becoming our best.

• 2:03:46Rich Roll?

  Version of an all-season love warrior. Peace. Plants. Namaste.