Paul George NBA Star opens up on disappointing Sixers season, Joel Embiid, James Harden, lessons from Russell Westbrook, injuries, legacy without a championship, NBA playoffs & redefining success

“How you gonna ridicule me? I’m in the one percentile of my work and I’ve shown you I work hard, so why can’t I have a life away from my job?” Paul George Philadelphia 76ers In a special crossover edition of The Pivot, we sit with NBA star, Paul George for the first part of our show and then Ryan, Chan and Fred do a second part with PG as the host that is streaming on his Podcast P channel…it’s a layered conversation about basketball, football, teammates, legacy, expectations personally and professionally as well as the role of family and more as we kick off the first part of this show… This raw and insightful discussion goes far beyond the court as PG opens up about the highs and lows of his career—from the devastating leg injury that nearly ended it all, to becoming one of the league’s most respected veterans as he’s played for the NBA's most storied franchises and had teammates who've defined the game. In a moment of humility and honesty, PG talks about coming to the Philadelphia 76ers and how things ultimately didn’t go as planned with championship expectations premature but hopes the adversity of a talented locker room will help the team rebound going forward. His admiration to play with Joel Embiid is what drew him to Philly, but injuries kept the duo from reaching full potential. He reflects on the mental and emotional toll of unmet goals, while staying focused on growth and what’s next in his journey. PG shares his mindset shift over the years, lessons in leadership, and how he's learned to balance basketball, fatherhood, and business. The guys also dive into PG’s thoughts on today’s NBA culture, playoff performances, and the power of staying mentally strong in a game that’s constantly evolving. Paul gets real about navigating criticism, evolving as a leader, and finding peace in the process. Chasing championship aspirations is still a goal, but the reality that not all greats achieve that feat is setting in.... This is Paul George like you've never heard him—honest, real and reflective, in a powerful conversation about resilience, pressure, and purpose. Don't forget to tap into our YouTube Channel and hit subscribe. Head over to Podcast P channel to catch Part 2 of this episode! Get a free trial at https://www.shipstation.com/pivot. Thanks to ShipStation for supporting this episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Channing Crowder?

  With them leather shorts?

• 0:31Fred Taylor?

  Nah, with your knees, bro.

• 0:33Channing Crowder?

  Why you worried about my knees?

• 0:35Fred Taylor?

  You could have been a hooper.

• 0:37Channing Crowder?

  No, we couldn't.

• 0:37Fred Taylor?

  You got a hooper body.

• 0:39Channing Crowder?

  I could have been a hooper. I was sweet. I was defensive lockdown. I was D and 3 guy.

• 0:46Fred Taylor?

  Defensive lockdown? I don't know about that.

• 0:49Channing Crowder?

  My lateral movement?

• 0:52Fred Taylor?

  I don't know about that.

• 0:53Channing Crowder?

  My lateral movement?

• 0:54Fred Taylor?

  You do got to lose hips, though.

• 0:56Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, I got to lose hips.

• 0:57Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, you got to lose hips.

• 0:58Channing Crowder?

  You do not have to lose hips. What's up, brother? What's up, baby? He's there, bro. Yeah, sorry. Thank you, K. What's up, dawg?

• 1:04Fred Taylor?

  What's up, man? You got it.

• 1:04Ryan Clark?

  Let's get it going.

• 1:05Fred Taylor?

  I don't think you can lock him down. I don't think you could have locked him down. What day?

• 1:11Channing Crowder?

  Rocky, can you pull these off? No shorts?

• 1:13Ryan Clark?

  No. No.

• 1:15Channing Crowder?

  My little man been the fell out of them.

• 1:19Channing Crowder?

  Not with your momma.

• 1:23Ryan Clark?

  Hey, PJ, he lying though, man. We went to the Savannah Bananas, right down to Savannah. He pop out with some pink shorts, leopard stripe, or leopard print. Lepers don't have stripes. Leopard spotted.

• 1:33Channing Crowder?

  Leopard spotted, yeah.

• 1:34Ryan Clark?

  Leopard spotted shorts.

• 1:35Channing Crowder?

  So you went full Ford, huh? Yeah, man, I had to show out for them. We was in Savannah, we had to do with that. Party animals and all them. Yeah, I had to get them right.

• 1:43Fred Taylor?

  You know how you take, like, thawed out chicken breast meat out the freezer? That's what his thighs look like.

• 1:47Channing Crowder?

  That's what they look like?

• 1:48Fred Taylor?

  Man, no.

• 1:49Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, I just want to roast them.

• 1:51Ryan Clark?

  It's a lot of atrophy, dawg. He got a lot of... He got a lot of atrophy in them.

• 1:56Channing Crowder?

  I don't got to work out no more when I don't. I hear that. I hear that.

• 2:19Ryan Clark?

  Man PG, man, welcome to the show, Paul George. This is Channing Crowder, this is Fred Taylor, Ryan Clark. Pivot fam, thank you for pivoting with us. We got something super dope and special for you today. It's not just one show, it's two shows, it's a combo, it's a collab. Two of the best doing it. Um, I mean, let's get right into it though PG, man. Like, this offseason was one of the most exciting offseasons of NBA, right? And your name was a huge name involved. And now, you get paired with Embiid, you're paired with Tyrese Maxey, and it's championship aspirations right away. The season doesn't go as planned, but you played 41, Maxey 52. You only played 15 games with Joel Embiid.

• 2:59Ryan Clark?

  How frustrating was it to have those expectations and then watch the season unfold the way it did?

• 3:06Speaker 04

  It was, it was super frustrating because, um, like, not only playing with Tyrese, playing with Joel, like, we had Caleb Martin, we had Kelly Oubre, like, Gershon, Yabu Selly, who just came off an amazing Olympic run. The, the roster, top to bottom, I felt was, was stacked with talent, aside from the two mega-stars in, in Tyrese and Joel. And the frustrating part is that we had all of this and we just couldn't, couldn't just get on the floor together. Like, we couldn't stay healthy, we couldn't get healthy. Credit the big fella for giving us everything he had, but it was days where he was hurt, but he was like, you know what? I'm gonna try to, you know, push it, I'm gonna try to get on the floor with y'all.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  And, um, you know, it was just very challenging. We'll, we'll, we'll practice and, you know...

• 3:58Speaker 04

  It's hard to toe that line of practice, be prepared, get ready. And then the following day have a game. So sometimes it was big fellas, you know, he'll try to push through the practice. That practice, he's, you know, got a little sore, a little, you know, and then we go into the game and now he's not available. So it was a lot to kind of balance. But I mean, I credit the locker room, man. I think through all the tough, you know, times that we had, man, we just stuck together and was like, just try to make the most out of this.

• 4:29Channing Crowder?

  PG, man, we see it through the media, but you brought the locker room. What's that like in the locker room when you looking at all that talent? You bring up all those names, Tyrese, Caleb, everybody, Oubre. But y'all sitting down next to the locker and it's like, big dog, I can't go tonight. I can't go tomorrow night. I can't go next week. Like, damn, how we gonna win? What's those conversations like with all that talent sitting in one locker room? Knowing that bruh got flippers on him, we gotta start, you know, flip flops on him, we gotta start in 10.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, nah, it was, in that, in that situation, you felt for the big fella. Cause again, he would come in there, you know, he want to play, you know, he want to give us something on the floor. But then, I, I've dealt with stuff popping up and being heard and I know what that feeling is like. And I can only imagine you seven foot, 270, 280, like you walking around, you carrying that size. And how he plays so physical, I can only put myself in his shoes and understand like how he felt on those days. But, you know, I came here to play with him. You know what I mean? I came to Philly to play with him. Damn, big fella out tonight, like, alright, like how, how we gonna figure this one out?

• 5:41Speaker 04

  Now going into the game, you know, big fella's unavailable right now. So now we gotta kind of, you know, pivot from how we gonna play tonight now. We were always kind of scrambling, I think, trying to figure out, alright, this is, this is how we gotta play tonight. This is how, you know, we gonna run through this, we gonna run through that now. We gonna change the plays, we gonna, you know, alright, Tyrese, we need more from you tonight. P, we need more from you tonight. Like it kind of just turned into that throughout the season of. How can we make up for the big fella not being out there tonight?

• 6:13Fred Taylor?

  Scrambling, what comes to mind for me is chaos. Like, things just all over the place, right? And in sports, and we've all been there, the one thing that gets you close to championship quality, you have to have that cohesion, right? You have to have, the culture gotta be right. You have to be able to control the controllables. Injuries happen, right? But leadership is always one of those things that kinda just jump out. Or in your locker room, what's that hierarchy, right? In leadership, like, who steps up and say, alright, this is what we gotta do. This guy's down, we gotta be the voice, and we gotta continue to push through to get the best out of guys that are available.

• 6:51Speaker 04

  The hierarchy, I think a lot of people often think the best player has to take that role every time. I think for our locker room, Kyle Lowry stepped up and was the voice every single day. Listen, this is what it is today. This is who we are, right here, right now. We gotta go out there and we gotta control what we can control. I thought he did a great job of that. You know, when we had Caleb Martin, Caleb Martin come from a program in Miami where it's hard-nosed, you know what I mean? And so he brought a culture that he was built on into our locker room when we had him. You know, myself, I would chime in. Kelly Oubre would chime in.

• 7:36Speaker 04

  Tyrese Maxey would chime in, being, you know, there

• 7:41Speaker 04

  the longest that was playing. And then Big Fella, when he was available, you know, he would chime in. So it was kinda a collective group, but I think we just didn't have enough time together, 'cause, you know, I'm new here. I don't know the land of what's going on here. Joel, he wants to say stuff, and he wants to, but I think he was thinking from a view of like, man, I'm not playing, so like, I don't know how these new guys is gonna take all of this in.

• 8:09Speaker 04

  You know, Kyle coming in, he's won a championship, so he knows what a locker room, a culture, looks like. You know, it was just, I think, so many voices all wanting to say the same thing and get the same thing out of it, but mind you, I mean, like, we, outside of Joel, Tyrese...

• 8:26Speaker 04

  And Kyle, you know, everybody else was fairly new, like, and Kelly Oubre, he was there with them as well. But everybody else in that locker room was new. So, you know, we knew it was gonna take some time for this to get figured out. So I think we were, you know, we were optimistic. We want to be a championship contender team. But at the same time, it's like, man, we ain't, like, we ain't, we ain't ready. You gotta go through some shit to kind of really, to your point, that cohesion, like, to be cohesive with one another. You gotta go through some shit to kind of mend together. And I just think, you know, it was, it was a bit rushed for us to say that we want to be championship contenders here.

• 9:03Ryan Clark?

  Yeah. Well, you know, that comes with big contracts and big talent. You know, that's so different from the game of football, even as it changes. You know, we don't hear in football, four years, 200-plus million, unless you throw the football, right? That's the only time you get that. So there's that pressure. Then we've seen you be at the height of your game. We've seen Joel do that. We've seen Tyrese Maxey do that. And our eyes don't deceive us. This is championship-level individual players. Cohesively, they should be able to win. I want to talk a little bit, though, about pressure as a basketball player. It's different, right? There's no helmet. And so people see your face. You become these brands and these stars. I mean, it's Palmdale to Fresno to Indiana to OKC.

• 9:48Ryan Clark?

  And even though you're in LA, you're not a Laker.

• 9:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 9:51Ryan Clark?

  Right? So it was never really, okay, this is the big show. Philly, the 76ers are part of the big show. And the fans are a breed of fans that live, eat, and breathe their sporting teams. How much pressure did you guys feel from the outside to fight through injury? Did you feel from the outside to try to go win basketball games? How did that play in to the way y'all were trying to move and deal with some of the injuries?

• 10:20Speaker 04

  Oh, absolutely.

• 10:23Speaker 04

  Um, man, to your point of, I've always been in, you know, LA, obviously, is not the small market. But being on the smaller of the two teams in LA, from, from fan base and all of that standpoint. I've never played on the caliber of what Philadelphia fan base is with the intensity that they have. Uh, so it was, you know, it was pressure. But I always looked at it as like...

• 10:54Speaker 04

  That's the pressure you want as an athlete. Like you want my [bleep] rooting for you. You want them to call you out. You want them to... Like I can walk on the streets. Just the other day, I'm walking on the street with my wife. And I had worked out that morning. And I'm walking on the streets, a nice day finally in Philadelphia. I'm walking. Dude like, "Hey, my [bleep] you should be walking on the court, not out here."

• 11:22Speaker 04

  Damn, like damn if I do, damn if I don't situation. But, you know, to that point, every time I suited up, it was like, man, I want to play for this city. Like, I know what it'll feel like if we won here. I just, man, it just sucked because I had so much shit popping up from injuries to, you know, dealing with the fires back home. And my house is in the thick of that. You know, family situations and shit going on that I had to kind of man up on. It was just so much shit pulling me that it was hard to kind of be all in focused on certain nights. But 100% man, the pressure is real in Philadelphia. But it's just the good pressure.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  And it's like, I look forward to playing in Philadelphia.

• 12:08Ryan Clark?

  When you were in the bubble, you said you, I forget what game it was. I think you hit like eight threes. And then in that game, you talked about the previous games in that series. You were dealing with some anxiety, some depression. And listening to you talk about everything you dealt with this season, both on and off the court. How did you manage that? How did you manage the emotion, the feelings? Or how did you push anxiety away? How did you push depression away? Because that spotlight can get extremely bright.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  Dealing with what went on in the bubble, I kind of just had the mindset to just be in the moment. I'm a over thinker, super over thinker. And I play out. Situations that ain't probably never will happen. But that's just how my mind worked. And I just had to continue to tell myself to stay in the moment. You know, because again, it's it's one thing when you're all over the place. You're thinking about shit that probably won't happen and shit that don't matter or mean anything and you take that on to the court. And now you're just not there. You know what I mean? You worried about other shit. And then, you know, your body, my body wasn't 100% to begin with.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  And so now you're in your mind, you're thinking you can do something. And physically it's just like, man, you like, you can't do that right now. So it's that playing on you. But to your point, man, it was just more so, I just had to try to stay in the moment and just focus on what I could focus on. And let everything else, man, kind of take care of itself. You know, I was in a new situation, new team. I was trying to get, you know, close, you know, relationships built with, with, you know, the guys there. Because I plan on being there for the long haul. You know what I mean? I don't, you know, this is my last journey. It's my last stop. So I'm all in on building relationships there. So that's kind of what just my focus was, man. Just focus on these guys in this locker room.

• 14:06Channing Crowder?

  And some, well, I'm a Miami dude, Heat fan. And I watched Jimmy Butler try to get out of Miami. He went and stood in the corner for three quarters.

• 14:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 14:15Channing Crowder?

  And I watched him standing there, goddamn corner for three quarters.

• 14:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:18Channing Crowder?

  And I might have bet on that game and I was hot.

• 14:21Speaker 04

  So it was personal?

• 14:22Channing Crowder?

  It was personal because it had New York Pockets as well. But that thing, even the playoff P thing, like all like, it's really a switch.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:30Channing Crowder?

  It's that switch, turning that switch on. Where what would you say to the people that talk about NBA players like that? Like, he ain't playing hard tonight.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 14:38Channing Crowder?

  He ain't doing, oh, he gonna get to the playoffs and nut up. Or he gonna get to the playoffs and show out.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 14:42Channing Crowder?

  Because this dude is getting to playoffs and I'd be like, where were you at for 82? What are you playing like that for now? Like that switch, turning that switch on off. What's your opinion of that? Because I think that's a big criticism of the NBA.

• 14:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, nah, I mean, you 100% right. And I don't want to say this because to knock the league because, you know, we making making good money in the league, in the NBA. But 82 games is is taxing sometimes where it gets to a point where.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  You on your fifth game in six, seven nights. And that fifth game is just like, man, how like, you know, how do I get through this one? And, and mind you, in certain situations, like people dealing with shit going on at home, you might get into it with your spouse or, um, you know, just variables that happen that like you can't control, but now you gotta take that with you with not sleeping, getting in late, playing your fifth game on seven, eight night. Um, so that, you know, you might be a little flat that night. So I think it just naturally happens. I don't think guys go out there and like, man, I'mma just, I'mma chill tonight. We don't have that, that mindset.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  But it just pan out sometimes where like, man, I'm, I'm just exhausted tonight. I need somebody to carry me. You, it been, it been games, and that was one of the reasons why I love playing with Russ. Shout out Russ. It was nights where I'm like, man, I'm a little flat. But then I look over here, Russ is a hundred percent, full-fledged, he going. Alright, shit, that's what I needed.

• 16:15Speaker 04

  So it, it, you know, I shout out those guys that you, you can, when you can get those kind of guys, the Pat Bevs, the Russell Westbrook's, when you can get those energetic guys on your team, they, they're huge. They're huge for the program.

• 16:30Fred Taylor?

  Going back to where RC started, talking about, uh, mental health and depression, you know, in, in the bubble, you talked about those dark moments being isolated. And I believe, I believe strongly that our platforms can help other people, especially coming from, you know, famous people, celebrities, superstar players. Fatherhood and fame and your kids, did that allow you to become more vulnerable, where you're able to share those things that you've gone through in hopes that it can help other people?

• 17:00Speaker 04

  Nah, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't think about it from that point of view. I think it was just me being honest with myself.

• 17:10Speaker 04

  And it was the first time I felt this way. You know what I mean? And I was like, man, I don't know who to talk to, who to turn to. I was holding on to it because I'm like, man, if I talk about this shit now, it's an excuse. Like, people gonna look at this like, man, he trying to opt out, he copping out on us. Right. But, to be honest, it was just like, man, I don't know, like, I don't know what to do here. You know what I mean? We got games. We seen the opponents after we playing. We might get into them during the game. Hit the elevator, boom, there he is.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  Y'all go ahead, go, man, I'm gonna get the next one. Um, and then, so it just, and then, and then, before all of that, they sold us a dream. We'll have this, that, you know, we'll be able to tour the park. So we like, cool, at least we ain't tied to just being in one space. Right. Then we get there, we tied to one space. And so, that was just, I didn't, I didn't know what to do. I, I didn't fish as much as I could have fished there. I didn't play golf as much as I could play golf there. Now what? Like, now what could I do? And so, it, it was more so just me just putting my hands up and saying, man, I'm, like, help. Somebody help me. Um, and that kind of just was the situation there.

• 18:26Ryan Clark?

  You know, he brought up Jimmy Butler. And a fan brought up Jimmy Butler this season. Uh, we don't have All-Star break. We also don't have NBA money, right? So the thought of being like, I'm gonna go to St. Bart's while the All-Star game, that don't happen for us. Right? But, that's common in your game. Right? Players, when they are not playing in All-Star Weekend or participate, and they get an opportunity to get away from ball. You do that, you get away with your lovely wife, and the Philadelphia fans and the people are ridiculing you for the pictures that are posted. One fan said, you know, if this was Jimmy Butler, he'd have us huddled up like Full Metal Jacket.

• 19:09Ryan Clark?

  What do you say to people who want, like the man walking down the street, you need to be walking on the court? What do you say to people who want athletes or NBA players in particular to not have a life unless they're winning? Or unless basketball's going as the fans think it should go?

• 19:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, that part always gets me. Because, you know, now I'm getting into golf and I like to play as much as I can. And, you know, me posting golf stuff, people got something to say, like, "You should be in the gym. Why you not working on your game? Why you not..." I did that. Like, I'm doing this now because I did that earlier. You know what I mean? I think people don't understand that, like,

• 19:55Speaker 04

  you can't physically be in the gym 24 hours out of the day. Like, we gotta have a life too, you know what I mean? Like, y'all don't work, not y'all, but fans, like, whatever y'all job is, y'all don't work 24 hours out of the day. Y'all have leisure time, y'all have things y'all like to do, y'all got hobbies. How you gonna ridicule me? I'm in the 1 percentile of my work, you know what I mean? And I've showed you I work hard. Obviously, if I've made it to this point, now why can't I have a life aside from my job now? You know what I mean? So that always gets me when, you know, people ask that question or make that comparison, like,

• 20:38Speaker 04

  you know, I mean, Jordan golfs. He the best motherf**er in the world. He had a hobby outside of basketball. And we know how hard he worked, we know what, you know what I mean? The time he dedicated to his craft. I'm not comparing myself to Jordan or saying I'm on that stature, but like, everybody got, you know, shit to do that, you know, outside of what their profession is, so... To that point, man, I like, I see those comments, I see those, and I just, you know, I try to just push through it.

• 21:08Ryan Clark?

  Like, when I would comment back, you'd be like, "RC, why are you talking to these people?"

• 21:11Channing Crowder?

  Talking to John 17-4-5 in his daddy's basement.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  You know what it is?

• 21:18Speaker 04

  I don't pay it no mind. You know what it is? It's more so my wife. My wife will be like, "Look with..." Man, don't pay them no mind. Like, so I hear it more from my wife than me searching and looking for that.

• 21:30Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, and what all you've done, bro, you are the monster. He said your resume. What is, what, do you need affirmation anymore? Do you need to worry about any of that? Like, why, why does it? We talk about it all the time. Why does it get to you? Why does it get to your wife? Why does it get to hell with them?

• 21:47Speaker 04

  It, it don't, it don't get to me. It don't get to me. Like, other than winning a championship, like, and obviously wanting to win an MVP. Like, I, I didn't, like, I, I like where my career is going. Like, I'm thinking about it the other day, like, had there not been a LeBron James, shit, I might have had one. You know what I mean? Had we not played LeBron James, or there was no LeBron James, we might have had one in Indiana. You know what I mean? I was, I felt the guy in, on the East. I felt like I was, you know, I didn't, I, we played Carmelo. Got Carmelo out of there. Shout out, shout out, you know, Mel. Played a tough Wizards with John and Bradley Bill.

• 22:30Speaker 04

  Nobody could come through us. Atlanta was a stacked team. Nobody could go through us. And, you know, that was, that was that. Got to Oklahoma. I dealt with injuries. Tried to play through those. It was just unfortunate. I had these injuries. I had the partial meniscus. I had the, uh, uh, shoulder tears. People want to talk about your performance in the playoffs in Oklahoma. Motherfuckers don't know, man. I, like, I watch games now. Cats are hurt. Cool, they played through it. Cool. They production level drops. Nobody says anything about that. Y'all know how the Toradol work. I was taking Toradol.

• 23:07Channing Crowder?

  Hell, yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 04

  During those Oklahoma series. Once that shit wore off, production dropped. Like, but I'm gonna give you what I got. People want to talk about that. Same shit with, with, in the Portland series. Now, shout out Dane, right?

• 23:20Channing Crowder?

  Crazy.

• 23:22Speaker 04

  Make fun of the, the, the, the comment I said about Dane. Hindsight.

• 23:28Speaker 04

  I was mad, like you're damn right, I was mad. You know what I mean? But people don't know going into that. I ain't played basketball for like a week and a half, two weeks almost going into that series because of my shoulders. Right, so I fly to LA. Get injected with Toradol. The PRP shit. Try to help me get to the playoffs. So I didn't play or pick up a ball. I didn't touch a ball for like two weeks going into that series. Play that series. I start to play well. The medicine's working. I'm mad. I didn't did all this shit and now we done? What you mean? Dame shooting that shot. Yeah, I was mad at the moment, but like I should have respected the moment of like him being, like that's his greatness.

• 24:12Speaker 04

  I should have respected his greatness. In my mind, it was a bad shot just because of, you had 10 seconds.

• 24:20Fred Taylor?

  Side step.

• 24:21Speaker 04

  Side step and that's the shot you take. That's like giving Tom Brady the ball on the opponent 20. 15 seconds to go and he nailed it. Damn, Tom, you ain't gonna at least go for it? Like, you know what I mean? You ain't gonna try to get closer? So, yeah, I mean, and that moment crushed me because like people that don't know me, they view me as, oh, he's a hater, he's this. Like, nah, like I respect Dame. I don't got no problem with Dame. The shot showed his greatness. I was just more so, I felt he had time. Like in basketball world, it was a bad shot because I felt he could have really isolated me and got closer to the basket or something. So that bothered me.

• 25:02Speaker 04

  But other than that, man, I feel like, you know, my career is gone as I wanted it to go. Like I've had a great career. My story is still being written. I don't have no regrets other than, you know, obviously playing for a championship. But other than that, man, I feel fine with where I'm at.

• 25:18Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, nah, keep grinding. You never know what will happen, man. You're in a good place.

• 25:22Channing Crowder?

  Chan, last few weeks been chaotic, fam. I'm tired, boss. Man, you talking about chaos. What is it? F1 in Miami to Savannah Bananas, now we up in New York. We running around, man, we got to ship stuff and ShipStation is off the chain because they have all the global carriers for us. Man, I'm telling you, I don't know if we could do this without ShipStation.

• 25:41Fred Taylor?

  Chan, bro, life in general can be chaotic, especially when we're in charge of shipping our own merch and e-comm gets crazy sometimes.

• 25:48Ryan Clark?

  But you're right, Freddie T. ShipStation allows us to focus on the content, keep the main thing the main thing. And now when we're shipping stuff for brand merchandising, we go to ShipStation and we could do what we do.

• 25:59Channing Crowder?

  Man, it was wild watching them over the weekend. Our team, click one button, get the label, ship it out, and ShipStation does it all for you. It is simple, it's easy, and it's efficient.

• 26:08Fred Taylor?

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• 26:15Ryan Clark?

  Listen, you can calm the chaos of order fulfillment with a shipping software that delivers. They need to switch to ShipStation right now.

• 26:21Channing Crowder?

  And all you have to do is go to shipstation.com/pivot. Sign up now for your free trial.

• 26:28Fred Taylor?

  That's shipstation.com/pivot.

• 26:30Ryan Clark?

  Now, back to the show with PG 13.

• 26:33Fred Taylor?

  But pressure moments. I'm gonna go back, you was talking about golf.

• 26:37Channing Crowder?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:38Fred Taylor?

  Would you feel more pressure shooting a free throw in the playoffs in front of 18,000 to 20,000 people? Or teeing off in front of the Tiger Woods like you did the other day?

• 26:48Speaker 04

  Uh, that, dude, damn. That tee off in front of Tiger, that whole day, I was, that ball was going here, there, short. Uh, and, um, man, I think I said it in a video, man, aura. Like, I just felt the aura. Um, and that motherfucker went right, about five yards short of the pin. Um, but that was, that was for sure nerve wracking. And I'm not good enough to be like... Put too much into golf, like I'm not that good yet.

• 27:25Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 27:25Speaker 04

  Um, so just period, like if I hit it close to the pin, cool. If I don't, cool, I'm, I'm here to have fun and learn. Um, but that moment, it was just Tiger there, Ricky Fowler there. They waiting, you know, and, and, and the whole time I'm like, man, just don't.

• 27:46Speaker 04

  And I was just fortunate, but, but shooting a free throw, like I had done it my whole life.

• 27:49Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 27:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what you do. You think about that, you know, when the gym is empty, you, you mind training yourself to be in those situations to shoot with a 20,000 people screaming against you, like, so that, that part don't bother me.

• 28:02Ryan Clark?

  You know, the basketball is such an individual sport. I think it was Brandon Williams gets to the league and he's talking about goats and he's saying Paul George, you know, like when we talked, when you first walked in, you was like, what's up OG, shoot, you the OG.

• 28:16Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:17Ryan Clark?

  Especially in what you do, right? It's LeBron has tricked people to think that you're supposed to play it for two decades at a high level. It's actually not true, right? It's difficult to do that. I mean, shoot, Mello's own son is like, yeah, like I like PG, right? Juju says the same thing.

• 28:34Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 28:35Ryan Clark?

  What is for you, you talk about winning a championship, you know, that's something you want to do. You talked about having to go through LeBron or maybe one day, you know, or the, the goals of winning MVP. What will be success for you within your career? What will you qualify as? I did what I was supposed to do with my opportunity.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  I think for me, like you, when you think of the next generation, guys coming after you. Like I, I inspired a next generation, like for me, that's a win. Like I come from a small town, built on just working hard to get to the league. Um, I wasn't like.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  I'm not supposed to be here. There was a ton of dudes in my small city that were good, but nobody came to Palmdale. Nobody, like, that wasn't a place that you saw talent and potential. So to come from there, the influence that that city had on me. I tell people all the time, my brother-in-law was the inspiration, was the influence for me to get to where I'm at. For people to see my game now and to be like, "Man, I like the way he play. I like how he approached the game. I like how smooth he is." Like, all of that came from my hometown. Yeah. So that's a win on its own.

• 30:02Speaker 04

  Obviously, like, of course you want to win a championship and you want your legacy to be on a champion level. But like, that, I've been OK with, like, that ain't for everybody. There's greats that's been before me that ain't won, you know? And, you know, they still inspire. Like, you think of AI, how much he's influenced and inspired the game. And he ain't won a championship, but people love him for what he meant to basketball. So, you know, if I had that effect on one player, I've done my job. I've been able to play, hopefully, when I'm done, 18, 19 years in the league. That's amazing for someone coming from, like, you would've told that kid 10, 11 years old

• 30:46Speaker 04

  that you'll play 18, 19 years in the league? Nobody would believe that. So that's a win in itself. And I'm not for the cliche shit, but like, for me, my family, getting my parents where they're at, getting my dad, who worked, you know, job after job after job, to where he can... My pops drive a Ferrari. I ain't flexing or none of that shit, but like, I get to put my dad... No, no, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that to flex. No, I get it. Whatsoever, but we come from small, humble beginnings. And to see my dad drive a Ferrari, live on a gated community, on a lake where he can fish every day.

• 31:32Speaker 04

  I won, I won, I won. I can say my parents are, they don't gotta touch nothing, they don't gotta move a muscle. Pops get to enjoy his life, moms get to enjoy her life. I won.

• 31:43Ryan Clark?

  Paul and Pauleta are good for sure, but when did or have you stopped feeling like the underdog, right? If you, where you played in Palmdale, it's not like playing in the city, right? People don't go there. You gotta go to Fresno State, you know, you're the 10th pick. When you started the ball in Indiana, people became such a fan because it wasn't supposed to be happening like that. That guy wasn't supposed to be doing this against the big three, right? But eventually, we started looking at you like it's an expectation. How did you switch your mindset from being the underdog that wasn't supposed to make it, to being expected to be one of the best players in the world and eventually get a ring?

• 32:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, I set that expectation on myself early and I spoke about this a little bit on my pod where, when I first got to Indiana, I told the whole locker room, give me two years, I'm gonna be an All-Star. Locker room fell out laughing. Alright, like, okay, cool. And from that moment on, I had it in my mind that I'm gonna be the best offensive player on this team and I'm gonna be the best defensive player on this team. And that's just how I carried myself. Kobe being my idol, somebody I looked up to. I wanted to kind of pave the way that, the way he approached the game, that's how I want to approach the game.

• 33:09Speaker 04

  And so, when I started working and getting better and getting better and I started to see what the work did, alright, now that I started out as a role player, now I'm getting touches, cool. Now I'm getting more attempts, cool. Danny go down, now I'm the man. Cool. Now, that's the expectation. I didn't work my way to get to this point. This is where I want to be. This is where I saw myself. I tell young kids all the time, like, you, for you to get to the level that you want to get to, you got to see yourself at that level. Like, you, you got to know what it is already to feel like a, a all-star, to feel like a superstar. It can't just happen overnight. You can work as hard as you want,

• 33:53Speaker 04

  but if you don't envision yourself being a star, you, you're not going to get there. So, I envisioned being a star. I didn't, when I got in the league, I, it wasn't like, oh, cool, I'm drafted, like, cool. Nah, when, I envisioned being an all-star. Like, I, I, being in the league didn't mean shit. Like, I want to be one of the best. I want to be in that top tier. So, that expectation was set on myself before I got to the league. I just wanted to work my way to get to that point where I could control what I could control. So, it, I mean, it, it's tough in a, in a way of, because, for one, you gotta, you know, you gotta want to get to that point. But then when everybody expected,

• 34:39Speaker 04

  now it's like, shit. Yeah. What did I sign up for?

• 34:44Speaker 04

  I was playing this shit just for the love. Now, what did I sign up for? So, yeah, I mean, it's, but again, it goes back to that pressure that you want. Yeah. It's, it's role players, and it's the guys that want that pressure to be the best out there. No doubt.

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• 35:27Channing Crowder?

  And PG, we doing a crossover. You bring up your podcast, Podcast P. And I've, I've watched it. I'm a fan, so I've watched it a number of times. You say all the time that you want to kind of clarify who you are to people. Like, what are some of them false narratives? Or some of those, you know, things that people don't know about you? Or, you know?

• 35:48Channing Crowder?

  That you want to bring them back with your story. That's how you say it. That's exactly how you say it. I want to tell my own story. What were some of them false narratives that you wanted to give clarity on?

• 35:57Speaker 04

  Uh, I mean, just everything, man. To be honest, like, a lot of the stories that going on in the league that, you know, I make excuses, or I copped out of Indiana, or I copped out of Oklahoma, like, none of that shit, like, I wanted to be in Indy. That didn't work out. Oklahoma, I wanted to be in Oklahoma. It wasn't up to me. People don't know it wasn't up to me. I thought I signed there, be here four years.

• 36:29Speaker 04

  Certain, uh, uh, let's just say what it is. Obviously, Russ been in Oklahoma for, I don't know, 10-plus years at this time. That's his home. I understand when it's time to up and leave. Like, you want to go see something else. You want to be somewhere else. That got back to me. Russ want to leave.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  I'm not about to stay in Oklahoma by myself.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? Like, but people think that I'm the one originated to get out and blow that team up. Like, nah, I'm not going to stay in Oklahoma by myself. Like, Russ want to go, that's cool. Like, I have no problem with that. But now, I'm going to try to figure out what's best for me in this situation. So that's how I got out of Oklahoma. And I just think, you know, I spoke on the, you know, the injuries. People think that, like, oh, it's production. He, you know, he don't perform in the playoffs. Like, when have I not performed? Only time I haven't performed is when I just physically wasn't capable, but I tried to give my team everything I had. You know, that situation, the dang situation. People think, oh, he's a, he's salty, he's this.

• 37:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm grown enough to admit.

• 37:40Channing Crowder?

  Salty?

• 37:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I was, I was, I was, I was mad. Like, I'm man enough to admit that I was mad, but I should have first.

• 37:49Speaker 04

  Said, you know, shout out and congratulated Dane for his greatness on that play and that shot. And then gave my opinion on what I thought that shot was. The bubble situation, you know, people, oh, he this, he that, he hit the side of the backboard. I didn't see plenty of them just hit the side of the backboard, you know what I mean? The greats have done that. And, you know, I just think everybody, for whatever reason, I was a scapegoat on a lot of situations that like people don't really understand, you know, my point of view. That's why the whole podcast that I wanted to do was kind of to clarify and speak my mind and give my opinions and hear it straight from the source. But I think a lot of stuff people just misunderstood about me.

• 38:33Fred Taylor?

  Speak about family dynamics and just maturing through all of the noise and the bullshit out there, being able to go home in your safe space, knowing that these are the people who truly love me.

• 38:44Speaker 04

  Family is the only thing that matter. The older I get, the more I understand. Again, I was that person, to Channing's point, of listening to the noise, whether it's social media, whether it's ESPN, whether it's, you know, First Take. My parents, if you let them, they'll keep ESPN on all day, all day. They'll watch the same.

• 39:10Channing Crowder?

  The reruns too?

• 39:11Speaker 04

  Reruns, like it's something that they miss. Can't be First Take, it's 11 o'clock. It's gotta be the last take. So I grew up, you know, that was always like, even as a kid, I always would hear was the news around sports. And so when I, you know, got to be in the league and be on the conversations every day, like that used to weigh on me, the opinions of others. But then, you know, as I got older, only thing that matter, man, is my circle, my family. I keep a small group of friends. I'm not out, you know, I don't go to the clubs, I'm not out, you know, with people

• 39:54Speaker 04

  just because I know them, you know, if I don't know you, know you, ain't no point of us, you know, kind of kicking it or hanging out. So I just keep a small circle and just keep to myself. So to that, to your point, you know, Fred, it's just, it's more so about, you know, my family and that's the only thing that matters.

• 40:10Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 40:10Channing Crowder?

  Man, this is a personal question.

• 40:14Channing Crowder?

  That I gotta know. Y'all can cut it after y'all want to. Can you 100% tell me that Kawhi Leonard is a human being?

• 40:24Channing Crowder?

  Like 100% in your heart. 100% in your heart tell me Kawhi Leonard was born like us, lived on planet Earth, and is still on planet Earth 365 days a year?

• 40:35Speaker 04

  Nah, nah, man, Kawhi is, he one of them ones, man. You think about how Bron.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  You don't hear no cousins that come out and say, "I know Bron," or, you know. Bron one of them ones, man. We don't know how Bron came about. We don't know, I don't know how Kawhi came about. Shout out his family, though. I love his family, but, man, he one of them ones, man. They just wired differently, you know, they wired differently. But as far as a human being, one of the best people that you can ever, you know, rock with. As far as just loyal, down-to-earth, funny. He talk way more than, funny as hell, like. He got funny laugh. I heard it once. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:20Channing Crowder?

  He tells jokes.

• 41:21Speaker 04

  He tells, like, probably, probably, I ain't gonna lie. He on a level of like comedian. Nude. I swear to you. Ain't no way. I swear to you. He don't talk enough.

• 41:33Channing Crowder?

  He hit shots.

• 41:34Speaker 04

  To you, you think he don't.

• 41:37Channing Crowder?

  He hit shots, big shots, and he yell, "Celebrate, celebrate, celebrate."

• 41:45Channing Crowder?

  I love his game. I watch this man.

• 41:48Speaker 04

  When you know Kawhi, he, like, he just as normal and, like, enthusiastic, charisma, funny, down-to-earth. He talk shit. He, you know, make jokes. Like, he just as normal as anybody. I'm telling you, if you sat with him, you'd be like, "Oh, this motherfucker's funnier than I, than I thought."

• 42:11Fred Taylor?

  Is it some sort of like social anxiety or something that he possibly?

• 42:14Speaker 04

  I think so. I think it's more so that. He don't like, you know.

• 42:19Channing Crowder?

  New people.

• 42:21Speaker 04

  As do people, you know what I mean? Like, and that's cool. Some people don't like being in big social environments. Some people don't like being the talker, you know, the first person to speak. Some people, that's not their, that's not their, you know, their getup. That's not how they wired.

• 42:38Channing Crowder?

  I say that about Ricky Williams. Well, sitting in the locker room, us talking, taking over the conversation. Going to a restaurant, you could watch him, you know, back when he was younger, you'll watch him kind of just melt into the floor. Where you're like, damn, Rick, you're good. But that was, and he came out with the social anxiety stuff and all that stuff. So that's right back to the mental health.

• 42:59Fred Taylor?

  And to that point, you've mentioned numerous amounts of players throughout this interview. Like, who are some of your favorite teammates? Like, you good with all your old teammates back in LA and everywhere you've been?

• 43:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, you know, I've been super blessed, super fortunate to play with some of, you know, the best to ever play. But, you know, to start my career, my age, playing with David West, Roy Hibbert. David West, one of my all-time.

• 43:31Ryan Clark?

  David West is one of the meanest basketball players that's ever played.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  He is mean.

• 43:36Ryan Clark?

  Like, he is like, I'm gonna be honest now, when I watch basketball games, most times I'm like, yeah, he's like a whole foot taller than me, but like, I put him to sleep. Like, David West, I was like, mm, if I run up against David West in the club and step on his shoes, I'm gonna be like, sorry, Mr. West, I apologize.

• 43:56Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, I'm gonna wipe that off for you, yo.

• 43:57Speaker 04

  You talk about somebody that ain't human.

• 44:02Speaker 04

  That, him right there, not human. Yeah, you talk about somebody that's not human. I didn't, just talking with him. He wrestled in MMA motherf**ers in the summer.

• 44:12Ryan Clark?

  That's what I'm saying, yeah.

• 44:13Speaker 04

  To, like, I do basketball and weight training to get prepared for the season. This motherf**er say, yeah, I box. I'm in the ring with him. God damn.

• 44:24Speaker 04

  So that to talk about like one of my favorites, David West, Roy Hibbert, G Hill, Russ, obviously,

• 44:35Speaker 04

  Kawhi, obviously, Steven Adams, Lance Stevenson, all of these dudes played a huge, Lou Will, Pat Bev, you know, all of these dudes, you know, if I'm missing people, it's Raymond Felton, you know, all of these dudes had impacts and influence on me. And, you know, I, again, I'm not the person that, you know, I keep a relationship when I see you cool. We pick up right where we left off, but I'm, I kind of keep to myself. I just know, like, I've had friendships, personal relationships with guys. It's one way, you get on the court, and I understand competing, like, I know how to cut that on and turn it off, but then it's one thing,

• 45:19Speaker 04

  you build a relationship, then you get on the court and you start saying, "Wow, shit, damn, like, you always felt this way?" You know what I mean? Like, and so that's, I understood, like, all right, certain people, I just, I'mma just, because my feelings was hurt. You hurt my feelings with that, you know what I mean? I thought we was tighter than what we was, and then we get between these lines and certain words is thrown out there that, I didn't expect that from you.

• 45:43Ryan Clark?

  Have you ever, have you ever had that conversation, though? I think, have you ever told someone who you felt like you had that sort of relationship with, and once you got on the court, that changed? Have you ever, like, checked that? Because I'm, that's, I'm a very, like, I need to know. Like, I'm a clarity person, like, I don't necessarily care what you do as much as I care to know why you did it. You know what I'm saying? Have you ever had to have a conversation of like, "Hey, man, I thought we was better than that, like, what was that about?"

• 46:09Speaker 04

  Nah, for me, it's like, because, again, I don't, I don't, I don't throw those words out there. Like, I ain't, I don't ever, all the shit that's going on, the moments, the pushing, the shoving, the confrontations on court always came from the other person, and I just respond naturally. So I've never thrown words out there. I don't use those words to talk about another man or to try to get in another man's head. Like, my game gonna speak for it. I don't have to try to play games with you. And, again, the CP situation, everybody knows about. I was talking to CP, like, CP the reason I got Lasik.

• 46:49Speaker 04

  I was having trouble seeing, we, obviously, we under the same, uh, agency with CAA. I'm talking to CP, like, you know, and, and, and I would work out with CP in the summers. You know, we, we didn't, we, part of the reason Donovan Mitchell is in the league.

• 47:04Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 47:04Speaker 04

  Obviously, he was gonna be in the league before, but we kinda stamped, like, bro, you need to come out. We were working with him, we were working out together. And it was, it was a brotherhood that I thought was with CP. Um, again, bring up the, you know, I was talking to him about the, the eye doctor. He put the stamp on him, cool, got it done, the same doctor. And then we get into the, the series and the words get thrown out there. Hold on, like, what? Where, where this come from? So like, and, and that's just, you know, again, I don't like talking about the situation. We had a moment this year where, you know, we started mouthing off and words thrown out there again. It is what it is, it's up every time I see him, I don't like, it is what it is at this point, but,

• 47:46Speaker 04

  um, those situations, I don't understand where, where some of it come from sometimes.

• 47:51Ryan Clark?

  You know, you watch the, the playoffs now and, um, you know, I don't know what it is, what it feels like for an NBA player, but I know for me, it's obviously a shorter period. Like, I would just be seething at home, wishing that I had an opportunity to play. And going back through everything about the reasons why I'm not. When you watch a series like the Clippers Nuggets, and you mentioned some of those people you played with, Kawhi Leonard and Russ is on, you know, the other team. And you see Russ finish the way he did, but also somebody like Harden struggled. He gets a lot of, some of the things people will point at you. Harden doesn't show up in this moment.

• 48:33Ryan Clark?

  When you look at some of those things, how do you evaluate what some of the superstars are going through right now in the playoffs?

• 48:39Speaker 04

  James is my guy, obviously, and I know what James, he puts a lot into his craft. And I think his, you know,

• 48:49Speaker 04

  The production drops or divots from time to time. I think when you're a player of his caliber, like one of the things, he does everything so well. I think on some nights, he don't know if he should be the scorer. He don't know if he should be the playmaker, you know? And I think at times is I'mma come out and I'mma be aggressive offensively to score. That James is a hell of a James.

• 49:13Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:13Speaker 04

  Some nights, he might come out and you think he flat, but he has the mindset of I'mma be the facilitator. I'mma get guys shots. I'mma get guys open. I'mma make the game easy for everyone else. And then, you know, you kind of lose. I've been, you know, on the side of this sometimes where I'm being so passive that I forget, you know, how to be aggressive within the game. And I lose, you know, sight of being aggressive in the game because I'm thinking, oh, I'mma get this guy easy look. I'mma get this guy easy look. And so I think, you know, at times, his gift is how good he is. It's often sometimes his curse because he can do so many things. He don't know which one he wants to be or he needs to be for that specific game.

• 49:56Ryan Clark?

  The biggest thing with James is the outside world knows that, right? We hear the Houston stories and different things. The crazy part is for like 82 games, it doesn't seem to really affect him. Game one through six, it may not affect him. But it feels like in game seven, when it does, when you only get up eight shots, when you have a couple of turnovers, people start to say, okay, what is it about this moment? And as you've mentioned, and as we all know, like the legacy of the greats, the people that are gonna give Hall of Fame speeches like you do, it's the game sevens or it's the playoffs and it's those important moments. How do you show up in those?

• 50:37Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, no, without a doubt. And I'll speak for these guys and say, we're all fans. Like on some real shit, love following your career from playoff P to the ups and downs and pandemic P. Love your podcast and everything you're doing. Can't wait for it to re-drop. But it brings me to, let's call it a pivot P, right? Your biggest pivot in life, that's that one moment you can look back on and say, without this happening, or if this happened for me, I wouldn't be who I am today.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  A hundred percent when I broke my leg, that was. The most pivotal part of my career. Um, all across the board. You know what I mean? From the team, from the organization, from myself. Like, I had to relearn everything, right? And to pivot with the team, right? When I came, when that happened initially, you know, that was the last time I got to play with D. West. That was the last time I got to play with Roy Hibbert. That was the last time, you know, I got to play with Lance Stevenson. You know, that was, that summer, you know, that playoff, we had just lost to Miami.

• 51:52Speaker 04

  Going into that summer, I was about to be on the Olympic team. Um, and that was, I felt like that was the moment. I figured, I finally, I think we finally figured them out. We took them to a game seven. I think we got them this next season. I'm gonna play on the Olympics. This was a cool experience to get to play against or play with 12, 11 of the top other motherfuckers. Like, I can learn from them, add to my craft, come back. I'm 24 at the time, 25 at the time. Come back as a totally different player with a different mentality. Win a gold medal. Know what it's like to win. You know what I mean? Kind of bringing that to the team. I know what it's like to win.

• 52:35Speaker 04

  Break my leg and one of the saddest moments was going back to Indiana and having to look everybody in the face. I can see, like, it's a waste of a season. I could see it in D. West's face. I could see it in Roy Hibbert's face. Like, I can see it in all the guys that I didn't just went to battle with. I could see it in all their face that this season's gonna be a wash. Like, David, I don't got that many years to waste. You know what I mean? I can see that in David West. That hurt. And then, for me, obviously, I lost a little bit of athleticism. Um, from the naked eye, people like, man, you look like you still explosive. You more explosive after injury.

• 53:18Speaker 04

  I noticed there was some, you know, only stuff that I noticed. So, there was that. But on the other end, I gained so much more love and passion for the game once it was taken away from me. That every time, soon as I return, like... Man, I get to play this, the game I love. I get to enjoy this shit now. Like, it was, it was, it was like the deer that just, just let him run. In that way, I, I gained a new passion and a new love for the game.

• 53:48Speaker 04

  And then from the organization, I think that's where it was starting to, it was starting to a crack in a relationship. Cause I came back and, you know, Larry made a comment of Paul doesn't get to make decisions around here. When I wanted to come back as a three, like, I'm a wing. I'm one of the best two-way players at my position. And I'm just coming back from breaking my leg and you gonna tell me I gotta play the four? Like, I'm playing against, and this is when there was- It's a different era. Yeah, this is when there's still four men out there. You know, they're, they're not wings at the four, it's still ADs and- Yeah. And so I think that's kinda where a fraction started with the organization.

• 54:31Speaker 04

  And, you know, of course I'm a, like, and it's not that I wanted to make decisions, like, I just, you know, I thought I'm coming back to play my position. Right. And so I think that kinda started a, a, a rumble within the, the organization with myself where, you know, I, I, you know, and, and I love Larry. It's not that I didn't, me and him don't have a good relationship. I love Larry. Larry, you know, took me under his wing, gave me a lot of gems. But it was definitely a pivot- Right. -from that point forward. Love it.

• 55:03Ryan Clark?

  See, man? This is why this man got his own show. You feel me? And so now, if you wanna catch part two of this conversation, we gonna bring out the mic, he's gonna pivot to the host, and we'll be on Podcast Pete.

• 55:50Speaker 06

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