Triple Click
Hosted by Jason Schreier and Kirk Hamilton
Original podcast
Ganondorf is defeated, and Hyrule is saved!
15,334 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
Hello everyone and Happy New Year from TripleClick2U. Kirk Hamilton here. We are off this week. As we mentioned last week, we are taking a break for New Year's Eve and we'll be back next week with an all-new episode, a very exciting episode, as we always kick off the new year with our predictions bet. So we will settle our bet from last year's predictions and we will make a whole new crop of predictions for 2026. Of course, one of the things that makes the predictions bet so exciting is that the winner gets to pick a game that the other two will play. And last year Maddie won and she picked The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time for us to play. And we did play it. We put out an episode about it midway through the year,
but we just kept going and recorded a spoiler cast, a beans cast, for the Maximum Fun Members Only feed that we released in September, where we talked about pretty much the back half of the game, the game as a whole. It was a really fun conversation and kind of a more complete one, or at least a good companion to that first discussion of the game. So we thought that would be a good bonus episode to put in the main feed for you all this week as a little holiday gift. It was a very fun conversation about an amazing game that I at least am so glad that I played all the way through. So that is what you are about to hear. It is our bonus episode for members from September about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. And just as a reminder, there are a ton of bonus episodes
like that that you could listen to if you support our show by becoming a member at MaximumFun.org/join. Thank you so much to everyone who is a member. You really make it possible for us to make this show. We always say that. It kind of can lose its meaning because we say it every month, but it is super true. And I at least really appreciate all of you who like this show enough to support it. So I hope you enjoy this conversation about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and we will see you all next week for our 2026 predictions.
I'm Maddy Myers.
I'm Jason Schreier.
And I'm Kirk Hamilton, and Hyrule is saved.
Yay, we did it!
Good job.
We did it.
We hit Ganon's tail a lot of times with a weapon of our choosing, until he died.
A hammer.
Yeah, the hammer's pretty good. The Megaton hammer's pretty good. Jason and I had the bigger on sword. But Kirk, I don't think you ever got it. Anyway.
No, I had the little gore on sword.
We're talking about the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time today.
We are.
We completed it. We have beaten it. We watched Cheek become Zelda and then get immediately put into a crystal. And then she helped us later at the very end of that fight. And then Hyrule was set to write. And she told us-
That is what happened.
We could just be a kid again. She told us we could be a kid again, and that would also be fine. Kind of a strange, bittersweet ending, but we'll get to. But on the main feed, we talked about all the child dungeons, kind of the first third or so of the game. But we really haven't talked about the adult dungeons at all yet. So I wanted to ask you two, what are your big-picture thoughts on the game, and especially the adults?
The big-boy version of Link's journey. Jason, why don't you go first?
Sure, yeah. Well, Maddie, thank you for making us play this.
You're welcome.
To play through Ocarina of Time. Like I said in the triple play, I feel like as I'm playing, I'm just like, man, some of the things about this game are annoying me playing it in 2025. But at the same time, it is just such a joy to play. Like, I don't think there was any point in the game that I wasn't just having a good time. And in that sense, it's held up beautifully. Yeah, the kid dungeons really are, I mean, it's night and day from the temples that you get in the adults as adult Link. They're so much bigger and more elaborate and have more dead ends and just kind of more elaborate puzzles.
Playing the Water Dungeon especially, I was like, man, this is, uh, this is, you can, you can see why so many people found this frustrating back in the day, but at the same time, it's also awesome. Especially the 3DS version where you can assign the iron boots to an item, uh, hotkey and you don't have to switch to them in the gear menu, which I imagine was a royal pain in the ass.
Yeah, I can only imagine. God.
Yeah, just a delightful game. Um, it's just so fascinating playing it today because you can see so many of, as someone who's played pretty much every Zelda game, you can see so many of the foundations. You can also see so many of the things that just aren't new to this and just came from other Zelda games, but are just translated to 3D, which just kind of like, sets a bar, um, and, and like, or brings it to a whole new level, um, whole new dimension, literally. And yeah, just fascinating to play through and extremely enjoyable, um, game. Except for the part where I was playing through the Shadow Temple and when you get to that room with the boat in it, you can like climb up this ladder.
And you're supposed to move this block out of the way and into a different position. But if you climb up the ladder before you've moved the block completely, it will reset and then you will just be stuck. And that is the most annoying trick that the game plays on you. Where you just have to redo the entire dungeon because you walked in the wrong direction. And a game that rewards curiosity, that sure is a pain, but, um, yeah, great, great video game.
Great game. Other than that one part with the block in the Shadow Temple. Great note. Uh, Kirk, what did you think?
Yeah, I felt similarly. I was amazed by the part of the game that we are going to be talking about, by the adult section of the game. I hadn't really played most of it. I, I learned, I realized that, I think, as we kind of got cracking. I had watched friends, I think, play through the Forest Temple. That, um, spiraling hallway rang some bells. It's a really iconic visual, this sort of twisting hallway that, that then turns the room upside down. And I think I had watched a friend do that, but at the same time, I had never played through it and certainly not just tackled the dungeon start to finish with my kind of adult gamer brain or whatever. Like, I just had not done that at all. So I was, I was.
Adult gamer brain. That sounds like a derogatory term.
Gamer brain.
Well, in some ways it is, right?
We got gamer brain.
I'm a lot slower than I used to be at some things. But, but also, I think, think a little bit more. I don't know, I have a stronger sense of, like conceptual sense of things sometimes than I did when I was younger. Though I do want to say, actually, in our, in our triple play of this game, I talked about watching people play it as a kid. This game came out in 1998, I was 18 years old. And it's sort of funny that I have these nostalgic associations with it that feel like childhood because, of course, you are a child in the game and the game is evoking a feel, a feeling of, you know, childhood. But at the same time, I mean, I was 18 years old, I was like about to head off to college. Watching my friends play this game probably while I was in college, you know? So it's, I think that that was an interesting sort of disconnect between the way that my memories of the game feel
and the truth of it, which was that I was actually a lot older when it came out than it, than my memories tell me or that my memories feel. Anyways, yeah, I thought this was just really, really special. I want, I want to play through all of these 3D Zeldas. I really haven't played them, you know? I played a big chunk of Wind Waker, that's the one I'm most familiar with. I've never played Twilight Princess.
Wow.
I've played a chunk of Majora's Mask, but never did The Thing, which I really want to play that now, especially because it shares so much in common with Ocarina. And then, yeah, I mean, Jason, on the main timeline, you're talking about, or the main feed, you're talking about Oracle of Ages.
The main timeline? The main timeline. The timeline split between Beans, Beans Casts and...
Right, right, I'll play the, I'll play the Song of Ages and, you know, and transport us back in time. And then, on the main feed, you're talking about playing Oracle of Ages and I want to play that as well. I mean, this really has made me realize how timeless, no pun intended, these Zelda games are.
Yeah. Yeah, I, I will say, just as a caution here, is that like Wind Waker and Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword especially, they get slower than Ocarina. And Ocarina already feels slower than like Link to the Past and the 2D games, as I mentioned a couple of times in the show. And like it gets slower and slower as you go. That said, those games all have plenty of greatness to them. Like the, some of the dungeons in Twilight Princess are truly incredible. And Wind Waker has some inventive items and obviously the art direction of Wind Waker is stunning. And Skyward Sword also has a lot of really cool stuff, including like prototypes for what would become Breath of the Wild. You could see a lot of that, including like a paraglider that you got and some other just really clear links.
So there's a lot to love about those games, but I don't think they're like as, I don't know, as, I don't want to say perfect, but as kind of thorough.
Not as beloved as this one, I think.
Yeah, definitely not as beloved.
Like Ocarina is really held up as one of the greats.
Definitely, but as a whole package, I don't like, I think those games have more, have a lot of greatness to them, but the entire package is a little bit weaker than Ocarina and some of the 2D games, I would say, at least in my opinion.
Something I've noticed though is that it's, I mean, that may be true, but this type of game, the Zelda type of game, you know, is very familiar to me and I've played a lot of games that are influenced by Zelda, going back and playing, especially this one, especially Ocarina, which is kind of one of the foundational games. It's just a reminder of how much I like this type of game. I mean, it's really just a puzzle solving, environmental, like it's, that's what it is. I mean, I know there's like, you get in sword fights kind of, but they're never difficult. And the boss fights are kind of a joke and maybe they weren't at the time, but like I never, I never felt challenged by them. But like the game is just going into a dungeon and then
watching as it grows ever more elaborate and building this, you know, map in my mind of all the ways that it works and realizing, you know, these, what each button or each key might unlock and just watching it grow and that feeling is amazing. And it just repeated over and over. I was so struck by how good the later game dungeons are, particularly the Shadow Temple, the Water Temple. Yeah, really those two are so complex and interesting. The narrative that they tell as you work through them, like the story of exploring the dungeon is so exciting and cool. I really was so captivated by it that even if the other games don't quite reach those highs or don't hold together as like a full contiguous unit quite as well.
Just going and playing through a bunch more Zelda dungeons would be wonderful. I actually played a bunch of Skyward Sword and that game has great dungeons for all the things that people hold against it. And like, I totally want to go back and play that, uh, that Switch version and just play through the whole thing and, uh, and enjoy the dungeons, enjoy that feeling.
That Twilight Princess, you gotta play especially, there's one dungeon in Twilight Princess. That's like a big house and it's, it's, uh, got a little Resident Evil leading you through it. Yeah, it kinda does. It's a little spooky. There's a lot of little spooky parts of Twilight Princess. I would know, it's a snow house, Yeti House. Um, yeah, I, I think that's right and it's interesting. I think back to, um, the era, like early 2010s, pre Breath of the Wild, when a lot of people were critiquing Zelda. And one of the big critiques I remember seeing on YouTube videos and the like was that, um, the dungeons in Zelda games, uh, kind of give you this, uh, illusion of open possibility, but they're actually really linear and like you're really, you're just walking in this straight path.
I remember this one, uh, video, I don't remember where it was, but it was just kind of showing the map of a Zelda dungeon and how like, despite the fact that it seemed really big, you could only really go on this one pathway. And I felt that was kind of a weak criticism in many ways, in part because the, of, one of the big appeals of these Zelda dungeons is not like, like trying to figure out what to do next, is seeing, uh, the design of it all and the interlocking, like the interconnectiveness of it all and seeing how it expands as you go. Um, and seeing how different areas will just like continually expand or like open up in new ways, even if you're just, there's only one potential path you can follow. It's still really fun and clever to watch it all unfold.
Um, the Spirit Temple might be my favorite one, and that's a good example of that, where like at first you're just like, you're exploring it as a kid and then you're exploring the other ring as an adult and just kind of, uh, seeing how, you're not seeing the same stuff, but you're interacting with the same sort of mechanics and seeing how much different they feel and how much easier they feel as an adult, um, is pretty cool. And yeah, a lot of stuff like that. I just really enjoy stuff like that. Or like the Fire Cavern, like seeing how like, okay, this pillar, now it, it operates in a New way and opens up new parts of the dungeon, just seeing how like things just kind of gradually reveal themselves. It's a really cool experience, even if it's totally linear. And in fact, I think a lot of that is lost in dungeons in Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom,
or the temples in Tears of the Kingdom, because you can approach them from any possible direction and they're totally nonlinear, which means they can't be designed in that really cool interconnected way.
Yeah, I agree with that. Playing through the Sky Temple in
Tears of the Kingdom.
Tears of the Kingdom. It was the feeling of sort of, yeah, you can, you can get to a lot of places on that ship in the air, you know, from outside of the ship, just by floating around. You can get a little creative, but once you get where you're going, you just kind of cast the spell and like activate the fan and keep going. Like it doesn't have that feeling of dialogue that these dungeons all have, where it feels as though you're in conversation with the dungeon and thus the designer of the dungeon. And so you're, they're constantly revealing these little tricks to you and they're very different. I mean, it's not even to say really that one is better or worse or anything. As a critique, I understand that as a way of understanding the dungeon, but as a criticism, I agree that like, whatever, like, yeah, I guess it's, it's one particular thing. But it's doing it so well and it's such a delightful experience.
It's also the feeling of like getting into a new dungeon and seeing some sort of like unfamiliar puzzle and try and like, the first time you play, you don't know what kind of item you're gonna get. And then eventually finding that item and be like, oh, that is it. That's always such a cool thing. And there's nothing worse than spoilers for like item, an item that you're gonna get in a Zelda dungeon. You're playing a new Zelda game for the first time. You don't want the spoilers because it's so fun to like discover what kind of dungeon. And there's some really cool items, especially in those later 3D games, some really inventive items that I'm excited Kirk for you to discover. If you ever do wind up playing like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword all the way through.
Yeah, I I know kind of the modern critique of the Zelda games now that I've heard a lot of Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are that they don't have dungeons and specifically temples is usually the word that people use to describe what is missing. And I think, based on having played through this entire game again, that this is what people are longing for. And when I played the child dungeons, I was, even though I've played this game before, I'd sort of forgotten. I was like, oh, these are kind of simple. And I'd forgotten how much more complex they were going to get. And I was like, the Tears of the Kingdom, like, areas, I don't know that I call them dungeons, but those those big four areas are pretty similar to Ocarina of Time. So I'm not really sure that criticism holds water.
But then when I got to these adult dungeons, I was like, oh, right, these are actually really cool. And they have extremely specific environmental puzzles that, like Jason said, are predicated upon the item that you get, but also on you having a very specific list of items already in hand, which, yes, makes the game linear, arguably. You have to play some, you can kind of mess around, like you can kind of, I think you can do the Fire Temple first or something. Like, there's people who've who've played Ocarina in, quote unquote, the wrong order and made it work. But I personally just played it in like the classic order that you're supposed to, the order that the characters in the game tell you to go to the areas in.
That's the order in which I go to the areas and I get the items and use them as intended. But even with that, there's an inherent challenge just baked into every dungeon where you're, even if you've got the hover boots or whatever it is, it's still kind of hard. Because you're like, okay, I have to just hold my breath while I'm crossing this gap and Link is just barely going to grab onto the other side. And it's exciting. And you're like, oh, am I going to make it? Or is this not really the place I'm supposed to go? And that just feels really good. And I, I don't know that I want to diss Breath of the Wild or Tears of the Kingdom in that way. I think those games have a ton to offer that's really different and really cool.
But yeah, they don't have these classic dungeons. And I think many people like me are going to remember the Ocarina dungeons as like the ur dungeon in a way. For Zelda.
Yeah. No, I completely agree with that. And they are very different games. I was struck by how interesting some of the items in Ocarina of Time are. I didn't realize, you know, the Lens of Truth is
So cool.
probably the most interesting item in the game, but there is no real equivalent to that in Breath of the Wild or Tears of the Kingdom. They're not trying to do that sort of thing. The iron boots are a similar idea, where you have these boots that really you just use in this one instance, and then sometimes out in the world, but they're really just for this one dungeon. But then, as a result, they combine with the design of the dungeon to make for this incredibly mechanically dense and variable experience. And that's so cool. I mean, it really sticks with you. Once you've made your way through the Water Temple, this experience, because the item that you're using is just so distinct. And then the Lens of Truth, I mean, I just really didn't know that was a thing in this game, that you can get an item where every time you press a button, it reveals a second layer to the world, and there's all kinds of stuff hidden,
and then the dungeons are designed around it. And then, of course, that also gets to something that this game has, that not every Zelda game has. I remember this with A Link Between Worlds, this coming up. And Jason, I believe this was a criticism that you made, being a Zelda fan, that in that game, you could get any of the items at any time. There's a sort of a store, and you would go and you could rent them, but then eventually you would go to the dungeon and you would unlock them. But you were able to get any of the main sort of puzzle-solving items, the boomerang, the bow and arrow, et cetera, the hookshot, from the start. And so then, as a result, it kind of limited the design of the puzzles, like of the dungeons, because you didn't know when anyone had it at any given time. Basically, it was more open-ended. And then, as a result, you couldn't have as curated of a puzzle-solving experience.
Well, so the way it worked was each dungeon was tied to a specific item, and then, so you only needed that item. So it was very obvious when you got through that dungeon that every single puzzle you were gonna have to solve, there only required whatever item was tied to it.
Right, right. That's right, I suppose. Yeah. And then, the dungeons were, you could tackle them in any order. So there was no, it wasn't until the very end that you were in a dungeon where it was like, okay, you must have all the items, and now you can kind of have more elaborate puzzles, which this game does a brilliant job of toward the end, both the, what's the... What's the name of the like, the trial that you do in the?
Oh, the training ground, the Gerudo training ground?
Yeah, the Gerudo training ground. That is really fun. Which is optional.
Yes.
Yes, optional, but I did it and it was very fun. And then also the final dungeon in Ganon's Palace, where you're having to use all of your items and kind of think of them in other ways to like, oh, actually, wait, fire arrows can also do this, you know? Oh, I actually would, maybe I can, whatever, use the lens of truth to see this. And you have to kind of dig into your whole bag. And because you have all these unique items, the puzzles just seem incredibly rich and complicated and really fun to kind of puzzle out.
Mm hmm. And there are parts of the game that just become trivially easy in a fun way as soon as you have an item. Like, to just give an example, like, I don't know why, but I just totally forgot that when you're fighting Bongo Bongo, you have to use the lens of truth in order to see him. Otherwise, he's just two big hands. And I was just trying to hit the hands because I kind of remembered like, right, you hit the hands and they kind of stun them. And isn't that how this boss fight works? And I just kept dying and being like, I guess I'm not doing enough damage to the hands. And then I was like, wait, there's like a whole other piece of this. But like, a lot of the game is kind of like that, where it's like, it becomes a cinch as soon as you have the item that you need or the applicable item. And that's like, something that I think of in a kind of classically Nintendo game way.
It's like what I like about the Mario Odyssey boss fights and many other Mario fights, where it's like, once you know what to do, it's easy in a fun way. And you feel like you've figured it out. You're almost like tricking the game in some way. And like, as you're collecting items in this game, you feel more and more powerful. And the game rewards you for that by being like, okay, buddy, you've got the hookshot and the arrows and the mirror shield. Well, now I'm going to make you do a puzzle where you need all three of those and you need to like, actually think about what you're going to do next and consider every single item that you have in your arsenal, because the puzzles are going to take advantage of every single one. And that just is more inherently interesting to me than something like the Link Between Worlds example, where it's like, okay, this one's going to be the hookshot dungeon.
You don't really need the bow and arrow for this one.
Right.
Yeah, it doesn't matter.
Yeah, you know, it really strikes me that these games are such puzzle games. They're just puzzle games.
Yeah.
Top to bottom, like that is what they are. Cause even the boss fights are puzzles. Cause as you say, once you figure out what you're supposed to do, it's not hard at all. And you know, anytime I referred to a guide, it would just say, yeah, here's what you do. It's gonna take you five seconds to beat this boss. And then I just would crush the boss and move on. Um, so it's the difficulty of the boss is just in kind of figuring out what you need to do. It's not in having the twitch reflexes or whatever, um, to beat them. And I think that's actually a really interesting, uh, fact about these games because playing through this, there are moments where you can see Dark Souls, you can see FromSoft, especially as adult link, when you're fighting the big skeleton guys, you know, in the, in the kind of, uh, whatever it is, the Phantom Temple, the, the Shadow Temple.
Mm-hmm. And in the bottom of the well, too. The bottom of the well is spooky.
Yes. Oh, for sure. They just kind of feel like Elden Ring or Dark Souls or whatever.
Yep.
And you can even feel it in the combat. There's kind of this similar push and pull. You're, you're blocking, you're attacking. But then of course, there isn't really that much challenge to any of the fighting. And then what challenge there is, is mostly in just figuring out what you need to do. Where Dark Souls really went in a different direction. And those games are about the combat challenge and the sort of fighting game design of the, of the fights. And you do kind of figure out, okay, this guy has this move and this move and this move. He's vulnerable to this. If I go over here, then like the ceiling will fall on him, whatever. There are some kind of things you figure out, but it's not the same kind of game. And that's cool. I mean, they went in their own direction and they did something really successful. That's really neat and has its own identity that started with Zelda.
But it is very striking playing Ocarina and seeing how dramatically, how dramatically different, how far away it is from, um, from a FromSoft game, despite having this sort of shared DNA.
Man, I think you bring up the Souls games and that's a great comparison point. And you can see the foundation here, obviously. But like, I think it's worth noting here that like, in addition to these being amazing puzzle games and having these incredible dungeons that we all just experience, this is also a game that like invented so many things. I feel like we don't, it's hard. To appreciate that today because we've been playing 3D games for almost 30 years. But when Ocarina of Time came out, there was no such thing as like locking on to an enemy in a 3D space. Like that did not exist until Ocarina of Time brought it to life. And that concept that we all take for granted in pretty much every 3D action game of having a target lock on
was invented by this game and like so many other things, so many things that it played around with in the 3D space. Just like would be then copied and inspire like countless other 3D action games. Like there was no such thing as a 3D action game until this essentially, or at least one that that functioned in any decent way. And for Nintendo and the people who made Ocarina of Time to be simultaneously inventing a genre while also creating these incredible puzzle boxes and dungeons and items with these completely original, in a lot of cases, just inventive ideas. And also translating a lot of the 2D items in 3D, which itself is just a remarkable feat.
For that all to be done at the same time, like you are creating a genre and also just making this amazing game. I mean, what an accomplishment, man. Like in the 90s, that was like even, I mean, the reason that it's like the highest rated game of all time is because it accomplished both of those things in the 90s. And I think revisiting today, again, we can appreciate so much of it, but like it's hard to remember what the state of 3D games was like in 1998 when this game came out.
Yeah, I would have loved to hear those conversations, especially between the design team working on the Water Temple. Just because to think of it in that context that you mentioned, Jason, that these people were designing a 3D dungeon and figuring out how a 3D dungeon might work and then really going for it and assuming a lot of 3D, you know, of sort of spatial puzzle solving and ability on the part of the player. Like it's a hard, it's a hard dungeon. You spend a lot of time thinking, okay, wait, right, there was that one room where I can swim up if I. Raise the water up, but actually have to raise the water down first so I can get over on the second floor and then connect through and then okay, but I can get to where I raise the water back up.
And then that'll get it higher. So I can take the boots off and I can go up and you're like having to think these incredibly complicated.
Then you're like, shit, I forgot to get the key at the very bottom.
Yeah, yeah.
Right, right. And then like that they would have to figure out how to design that. At a time when doing something like that was just a totally new thing to be doing is remarkable and that they did it so well is doubly remarkable.
Mm hmm. And on top of that, like playing around with time travel and like different.
Like to have like adult link and young link with different animations. Like I was reading an Iwata asks about this and from what I understand, they did mostly map the adult link animations on to the child link ones. And then just like changed a couple of things, but even that is so much work. I can't even imagine like.
It's like, these are two completely different body models of characters and you're designing puzzles around them and like, we've kind of talked about like it's, it's the spirit temple where you have to start out as child link. And like you crawl through a little hole and you do part of the dungeon as him and then you time travel and you're adult link again, and you do the rest of the dungeon. Like even just the creativity of that idea is so fun, but I also get why they only did it once because it's like, all right. This game is complicated enough. We're not going to design more than one dungeon where you need to be a kid and an adult because this is ridiculous.
Well, yeah, that, that's the one, that's the one thing that I think is missing from this game is that like, unless you're doing a lot of optional stuff, which is so unnecessary in this game. Like you don't even need money in this game.
You don't. The rupees are such a silly reward by a certain point.
Absolutely useless. I got the giant's wallet just because it bothered me anytime I wasn't able to collect rupees, but I literally never bought anything, I think in the entire, I mean, I bought some bombs.
Yeah, sometimes you need bombs or arrows a couple of times. So that's about it.
The one thing that I think is kind of lacking is that they don't really play around with the time travel that much. Like there are a couple of moments here and there where it's like, oh, you're the guy from seven years ago and here's, here's the son that I named after you. And there's a couple of fun moments like that, but like.
Basically.
Yeah, exactly. And the bean. Again, that's all optional. There aren't a ton of like puzzles where you have to do something in the past and then it impacts the future in some creative and clever way. Or like you have to go back and forth a bunch of times, which is too bad because Chrono Trigger had done that in a really fun way a few years before this. So that concept had been played around with. But again, I think because they were trying to do so many other things that like it would have been very difficult to pull that off.
Yeah, you can imagine that being a lot more difficult with the 3D space.
Oh, yeah.
It does feel, playing this game, again, I also was thinking about how like it feels like there are, there is some cut content in this game. Or some, some ideas that they wanted to play around more with, but didn't get a chance to. Two things struck me. One is the ice arrows, which you can get and then I guess use, but like you don't need them.
I don't know what they're for.
You don't need to use them ever.
But you don't need to use them.
And the other is the golden gauntlets, which you use probably three times. You can leave, I don't know if you guys realize this, you can leave Gannan's castle and then use it to like get a reward from the fairy where the fairy.
Is who gives you Dins Fire.
The like damage reduction.
The damage reduction.
Incredible buff.
Yes, and it's worth doing, I guess, if you want the fight to be even easier, which why not?
Yeah, I actually, I went up to that huge, you know, chunk of rock or whatever that you can only use with the golden, you can only move with the golden gauntlets. And for a brief minute, the prompt like grab came up. And this was before I had the gauntlets and I spent a long time over there looking at it, thinking, I'm supposed to be able to grab this, but I don't understand. Because actually the thing you were talking about earlier, like where you don't know what the new mechanic is going to be for the dungeon. Like I didn't know that I was going to be able to move things that look exactly like that.
And then I finally was like, I guess I'll just, I don't know, because I actually hadn't figured out how to get into the castle. So I thought that was the path in and I finally went and backtracked and realized, oh, okay.
There's gonna be a magic bridge.
And then I got the gauntlets. I was like, oh, okay. So then I went in immediately, got that, that upgrade.
Yeah, it does feel like they wanted to do more with that. It's bizarre that you only use it like those two or three times in Gannan's castle. I don't know, I could be wrong, but it's weird that they created that whole tower thing just for that. And the ice arrows definitely feels like there was something they wanted to do with the ice arrows, but just like never quite made it in the game.
Maybe, or they just needed a reward for the training grounds that would be okay to be optional? Like, why aren't those there? I suppose. I have no idea. That's also just a guess. I don't know. But yeah, you really don't need them.
The time travel thing definitely seems like there's just a lot of potential that they weren't able to explore. I really love the Song of Storms puzzle. Or I guess this is, I guess he's telling you how to get to the bottom of the well. Is that what it is?
It's where he's saying basically, "Oh, like, you look like that kid who came in here and played a song and ruined everything."
When you haven't done that yet? It's very Bill and Ted, where they have to decide to leave the keys in the future so they can pick up the keys now and then the keys just appear. It's very like that kind of time travel joke.
It is, and it kind of doesn't make sense, too, because like there are things in the game-
Cause time travel doesn't make sense.
That aren't affected by the present, but there are other, or the past, rather, but then there are other things that are and you just kind of have to not think about it. That's one of them.
One big paradox. Yeah, you can't overthink it. I thought it was really funny and I really like, I like the moment at the spirit temple. So you usually, I think, well, the way I played it, I think typically you will arrive there as an adult.
And so, well, I don't remember what they're called. These, maybe the most annoying enemy in the game? No, no, never mind.
There's so many annoying enemies.
Flame, fire kees are the most annoying enemies in the game, or ice kees, I guess. Kees are the most annoying enemy. No, dude, man, wallmasters are the most annoying enemy. Okay, fair. Kees are the, so the third most annoying enemy in the game, then if it goes wallmaster, then kees, and then those-
The sand guys?
Things that pop up out of the sand and are like hockey pucks that fly around? Yeah. What's so funny is you, you spend a long time dealing with those and they're very annoying. And then you realize, oh, I have to go be a kid and come back here as a kid. And I do appreciate that the game always gives you a song to warp wherever you're going.
Yeah, thank goodness.
So you don't have to do a ton of walking. It does kind of cut down on the tedium. And so then you come back as a kid and those things pop out and they're the side, they come up like above your head because the character design, the character model is just so much smaller. I just think that's like an amazing moment and something that they could only do in 3D that you can, I'm just sure they were delighted by that. The feeling of, oh yeah, these little annoying guys suddenly are like- Like the, you know, taller than you are.
Yeah. And having, I mean, I think they were limited by having it so small link can only use certain items. So that kind of limits your puzzle solving. I talked in the main feed about how I've been playing Oracle of Ages, which is a 2D Zelda game that came out after this and also plays around in time travel in more elaborate ways than Ocarina of Time does.
Oh, in the main timeline. You were talking about it on the main timeline.
On the main timeline, yes. And one of the, one of the tricks, I think, is that in Oracle of Ages, you are not traveling into a past version of yourself. You are just the same link, traveling between the past and the present. And so you don't have limited usage of some of your items. Or you don't have to worry about stuff like that. You're not smaller. You're just the same link going back and forth, which I think from a puzzle solving perspective and from a game design perspective, makes things way easier because you can get into more complicated stuff, knowing that you will have all the same abilities that you have in both timelines.
Do you think that when Link goes to put the sword in? Or take the sword out? Like, do you think he kind of has to brace himself for that? Cause it's a little bit essentially horrifying. Just that he is like, maybe this time I won't wake up. Maybe this time I'll be there for 50 years or a thousand years, you know? How do I know it's gonna be seven years every time?
I do feel that way. And I think some of that is like me projecting depth onto the game, but it also invites some of that by kind of having some of these darker implications and moments. And this like kind of almost mournfulness to the ending, especially when you're like, okay, I'm a kid again, but like also I know too much almost. And like, I've been through so much. And like, how can I ever go back? Like, there's no going home again. And like, every time Link is like going to the Temple of Time, I think about that where I'm like, like, he is, he is 10 years old, but he's also 17 years old or whatever age, age breakdown you want to say. And it's, it's, it's kind of uncanny and upsetting, but like, the game doesn't include any thoughts
or monologuing from Link about that. So you have to just imagine what he might be thinking in those moments.
Yeah, they're not consciously exploring it. It's so funny. I've, so I've been watching Alien Earth, which I talked about in the main timeline.
Right, right.
And.
I'm just gonna keep saying that. We're gonna see if we can turn it into a thing.
No, it's good. It's good now.
And it's so funny, just because that show is in large part about children's minds being put into the bodies of these like synthetic adults. And just that you would ask that question, Matty, in our main feed episode, where you're like, does he have a child's mind in a like 17-year-old's body? And that the game is not really interested in answering that question, but it does make you think about it. And man, let's talk about that ending for a second because you mention it. For a long time, I was aware of this ending and I'd seen it and read articles about it. So I knew that it ended with Link being turned back into a child and that, you know, that that was sort of, that felt kind of bittersweet. And I remember even as a younger person, knowing that and thinking, oh, that's too bad. Like, he loses all the cool abilities that he had. You know, he's not as big and strong.
Playing it and watching it, I actually, I didn't find it bittersweet. I think it's a lovely idea. It would be really bittersweet if he had to stay as an adult, like as a teenager, because he would lose his whole childhood. At least this way, they're like, you can just go back to being a kid now. Like, you don't have to worry about all of this. You can let it go.
And, but it does raise that question. You're right, Matty. I hadn't really thought about it.
Like, he's been through it all still.
He's been through all this. He knows this happens. So he'll be like, sitting in school or whatever with the other fairy, cause he's like, you guys haven't seen the shit I've seen. I fought a god.
And you never will, cause I protected you from it. Because like, in the ending of this game, which sort of introduces this idea of the splitting of the Zelda timelines that like Zelda fans, including me, are so fond of.
Is that he goes back in time to be himself as a child. And for some reason, the king believes him. I like that we never have to see this scene where this unfolds. Like, even though Zelda kind of has a premonition about it, I guess she needs like the additional weight of this other random kid coming in and being like... Guys, you gotta watch out for this Ganondorf fellow. He's, he's gonna turn on all of us and unlock evil and like get master the Triforce and have it be just the power Triforce and all this other, all this other stuff. And like, these two kids are believed, which is also kind of a charming fantasy in and of itself, especially as an adult playing it. But it kind of feels like a child's story where it's like, the adults will finally believe me.
And like, that's the good ending is that like Zelda and little baby Link are like, no Ganondorf is bad. And like, we have some sort of proof now of this and like, we get to save the world and prevent all of these horrible things from happening. But there's also this other timeline, we assume, that includes the downfall, that includes like, the, the horrifying version of the Temple of Time that we see and we walk out to and there's all the re-deads and like Hyrule is in shambles and everything's, everything's gone to shit. Like, there's that timeline that I think is like the one that leads to Wind Waker. I'm not solid on all of the like ways that it shakes out, but I do know that the child timeline leads to Majora's Mask.
And like, you haven't played it, Kirk, but like Link is like not doing well as a child in the future in Majora's Mask. He's like really struggling in that game. I've played some of it. So you do know then that like, some of the game is about him kind of struggling with the idea of being a hero and like wanting to kind of abandon it. And so I think that bittersweetness is there in this game and gets leaned into more in the darker sequel to this where it's like, what if that continued? And like, child Link, who knows too much, is the main character now. And I think that's cool.
I think we should use an Akerina to travel to two years ago and tell Joseph Biden not to run.
I think you should bring some proof.
Right, like what would we use it for? Like, I, yeah, if we can only travel a few years into the past, what are we, what are we using it for?
Yeah, it's, I think that the, the kind of benefit for Link is not just getting to live out his actual childhood, but also getting to live it in a world that isn't completely destroyed.
Isn't terrible.
Terrorized and like infested with zombies. Yeah, the, the ending is really interesting and I think leaves a lot of questions and leaves a lot to the imagination about like what, what's gonna happen next and what it means. And like, what does this actually mean for all the sages? Are the sages still there? Cause you kind of see them like often in Sage world, Zelda is still there as a child.
Well, they reappear during the credits, right? Like they kind of, they come back during the credit sequence and then they're all there with everybody. I took that to mean that the sages return from the Sage realm and kind of rejoin the world.
Oh, I thought it was them just kind of viewing things from a distance as like the, the kind of like, we are now just like the protectors of this world. We're no longer a part of it. That's how I interpreted it. But again, it's, it's.
Open to interpretation.
Kind of ambiguous, yeah, which I appreciate. And yeah, I mean, as a story, it's, it's a good one. I would say that Ocarina had the best story of any of the Zelda games before it, at least on console. I mean, Link's awakening story is pretty cool too. But Ocarina definitely took storytelling to a new level. And I think it being in 3D allowed for that because suddenly you could have cinematics and you could have facial expressions and Kirk, you mentioned in the triple play about that, those shots of like Na'vi POV, like flying around Kirkiri Village. And yeah, a lot of cool stuff there that I think whatever you lose moving from 2D to 3D,
whatever you lose in kind of the gorgeousness of the sprites and the quickness and efficiency of like rooms and temples and screens and stuff, you gain in story, in narrative capabilities. And a lot of other cool stuff too, including having to look at Link's ear when you throw a boomerang.
Yeah, the perspective really helps the environmental storytelling. I mean, the feeling of jumping into a well is just different when you're in 3D and you're jumping into the well. That's true. And then in those later dungeons, you know, when you're in the Shadow Temple or the bottom of the well. Remind me, is it the bottom of the well where it's like the kind of death and the sort of evil of Hyrule, like all the evil thoughts have manifested here? There's like some text that says that? Is that in the bottom of the well? Yeah.
It's so cool, like the foreboding haunted atmosphere of that space and of the Spirit Temple, or sorry, the Shadow Temple, not the Spirit Temple. Like both of those kind of darker dungeons, you know, you can only do that in 3D. Like that would only work, you know, the feeling of like climbing through these guillotines and looking out over these weird kind of blasted holes of darkness. Getting on that boat, I mean, that boat sequence, as mechanically kind of goofy as it is, where you're kind of, then you're on a boat and you fight some guys with these postballs and you have to jump off it.
It's a pretty epic cutscene, though, the boat coming out is cool.
Exactly, like this freaking boat of the dead, like on the river Styx or something. Like the feeling down there, I mean, that is really cool. And it is, it's kind of an intersection of the narrative and the design and the look of it. I mean, the feeling of being in this dark, subterranean space where the, all the dark thoughts of the, of people from the land of Hyrule have like manifested into some kind of a like evil energy, that is really cool. And I don't know, I've certainly never had that, quite that feeling, playing a 2D game. Like it's just an enveloping immersive feeling that you really only get when you're walking around and looking around inside of space.
Mm-hmm. I do feel like it's playing more and more, as Zelda games did after this point, with the idea of darkness being inherent to Zelda. And, I mean, we haven't really talked about Dark Link yet. I definitely wanted to bring him up as like-
Oh, yeah, let's talk about it.
Another example of something that I think From Software games have borrowed from, but that also-
Other games in general and stories. I mean, it's not like the idea of fighting a dark version of yourself is Dark Link's the first time, absolutely not. It's, it's pretty core to a lot of legends and stories. Of people is like your real enemy is yourself, but also like your darkness inside of you and fighting against that. But I Kirk, I know you had some thoughts on like, kind of the the from soft awareness of it all, like just the specific design of that level and how weird it looks and like the, I think that's also close to when you get the mirror shield. Am I remembering right? Like, kind of the idea of mirrors? I'm trying to remember.
I think that's a different dungeon. That's at the end of the water temple, and I don't think you get the mirror in the water.
Yeah, but like the idea of like duplicity in this game, like the two timelines, the two links. I mean, it just kind of, it all comes together. In that.
Yeah. And I mean, yeah, the the feel and the environment like, or the encounter pacing of that fight just is straight up feels like Bloodborne or something. It feels like a Souls game. You walk into this room, you've been in the water temple this whole time, and it's just like a normal temple.
Then you walk into this room where it's like, the horizon goes to infinity. You're standing in this shallow water and the water just stretches to infinity. There's like these bits of ruin, like ruined stone just sticking up out of the water. And it's like, where am I? What is going on? And then like dark link health bar appears. And suddenly this guy comes at you out of, you know, out of the, out of the fog. And then next thing you know, you're you're in this like one on one fight with this incredibly difficult enemy. I mean, that is in every from game. Like there is a sequence where you walk into a boss room and it's some fantasmagorical space that doesn't make any sense compared to where you just were. And then that exact rhythm happens. I mean, it felt so from soft to me more than anything else in the game.
Like the health bar and then the enemy and you're like, oh no, there's a health bar.
It was just great. And then you defeat him and like the illusion is broken and you're just in a room back in the temple, which is also so cool.
So this, in case you guys don't know, this is kind of a 3D translation of a fight from Zelda 2, The Adventure of Link, which is the NES game that is like a side scroller. It's the kind of the black sheep of the series because it's all just kind of like an action side scroller and it's a very strange game.
Of the inspirations for Hollow Knight, as it happens, listening back to that old Hollow Knight interview.
Yeah, that's true. And also also Shovel Knight, the kind of the downward stab sword that you get in that. It's the inspiration for Shovel Knight. But anyway, the final, final boss of the adventure of Link's Zelda 2 is Dark Link. And you like walk in, I think you beat another boss and then you walk into this room and it looks normal. And then suddenly like the colors get inverted and then Dark Link pops out of you and you have to fight him. And he's like mirrored.
That's even creepier, him popping out of you.
Well, it's like your shadow. It's like your shadow that you're fighting. And it's a really cool boss, like final, final boss fight that was then translated to 3D for Ocarina.
That fight is such a pain in the ass. The actual Dark Link fight, what a pain.
There are a lot of the ideas in Ocarina, it's really cool to see them translated from other idea, other, other games. So like, for example, the trading quests that you do to get the Biggerun sword, which is really fun. And has some tough time limits that are fun to get around. That is taken, or that is kind of an evolution of the trading quest from Link's Awakening. And in Link's Awakening, it's more, it's a little bit sillier. You are getting these just kind of random hilarious items like a banana or like a stick. And you have to figure out what to do with them. I think a beehive is one of them. I'm not remembering exactly what they are and there are like 10 of them. And you just like, as you're playing through the game, it's just something you have on the side as like a side quest. And then at the end of it, you get the super powerful boomerang.
In this, it's a little bit shorter and a little bit more serious. And also has these time limits that make it more of a, more of a challenge. Which again, is just a really cool thing to see that just is an evolution of like what the 2D games did, except now in 3D. So now instead of just kind of like wandering around the world and trying to figure out where to give something, you have this time limit that forces you to learn the open world and how things connect. And for that final time limit, I thought this is really cool. If you, so the final thing it asks you to do is you have to get these eye drops and bring them to Biggerun, who's on top of Death Mountain. All the way from Lake Hylia and it's you have a four minute timer.
And if you go from Lake Hylia all the way to Death Mountain, you're probably not going to make it in four minutes or it's going to be super tight. You have to play it perfectly to do it. But if you remember that in the Lost Woods, there is a shortcut to the top of Death Mountain. Then you can do it that way and you can do it all in like two minutes. So it's one of those fun little things that I don't know how, I don't know if that was intentional. But it's one of those fun things that just rewards you paying attention and being curious and like learning the world. Is that you were able to do this side quest really quickly and without too much stress attached. And by the way, you can't use fast travel. You can't use the fast travel songs to do it.
You can't, and that's part of it. And if you do, it's automatically going to disqualify you. I think it's intentional for the reason you said, which is that by that point in the game, or by the point that you're going to get rewarded with the bigger on sword, you should know the world well enough to know all the shortcuts. And that's your reward in some ways is that you're like, okay, well, I've already been running to and fro. And maybe you haven't yet unlocked those Ocarina songs. Like some of them she takes takes his time teaching you what they are. And you're like, okay, I guess I'm gonna have to run around and figure out where to go. But yeah, I think it's like, that's your reward for knowing this relatively small, but still just big enough open world.
And you can use Ipona. So like, that's another thing that I'm like, I'm surely this isn't. You can't do it without her. But like, I, I think this is also one of the early open world games where you can call your horse. Like kind of speaking of things that were relatively new, I'm not sure if it's the first one, but it's certainly one of the ones I remember where like calling your horse from anywhere and kind of having her magically appear, but also having her kind of help assuage the, the distances of the open world, which are just like a little too long for you to want to walk. Like that kind of helps the world cohere into something that I think other games emulated again, where it's like, it just needs to be just big enough. It doesn't need to be so, so big.
And I've named many horses Ipona after this horse because I'm like, she's the open world horse.
Matty, that's a really good point that I hadn't even thought about, like, so many, that mechanic of like-
Calling your horse.
Calling your horse is just casually invented by this game. Like, so many mechanics.
Yeah, has that ever happened before?
I don't think so. I don't think it ever happened before that game because what, when, like, in 2D spaces, I mean, there's certainly games where you could ride horses or ride things. You could ride Yoshi at Super Mario World, but like, there weren't 3D big open world games where you would need to just be able to call your mount from anywhere. I don't know, I could be wrong, but like, certainly feels like something that Ocarina of Time invented. And certainly, there, there must be a long list somewhere of these just like, mechanics that we've seen in a billion open world games that were just casually invented by Ocarina of Time.
Yeah, on the shortcuts a little bit more. So I never used those. Every time I found one, I found it delightful because, you know, you hear whatever Saria's theme coming through and blow up some rocks, and then next thing you know, you're, you're in the Lost Woods. But then I never really needed them because the game gave me those fast travel songs, so I could get wherever I needed to get. It's cool that to get the Big Orin Sword, you have to use them. Like, that's kind of the moment when you're gonna really be rewarded for remembering that those are there. I wonder, first of all, if there's a map anywhere that indicates whether those shortcuts make any sort of geographic sense or not, because I'm actually not sure they do.
The Lost Woods is not-
Well, they're, they're in the Lost Woods, and the Lost Woods plays by its own kind of magic, so.
Yeah. It's a little bit magical. That's a good point.
Also, the, the shortcut songs aren't that useful because like, the Water One takes it to Lake Hylia. If you want to go to Zora's, uh, Zora's realm, then...
Well, I guess I'm just, I got everything pretty much except the Big Orin Sword, and I never used the shortcuts. Like, I, I found-
If you don't need the Big Orin Sword, then you're fine.
That's more my point is that like, you don't totally need them. Like, they're not, you're not gonna be using them constantly because you do have a fast way of, especially getting back to the Temple of Time, and because the castle town is right next to Kakariko Village, like, so much of what you do is like, right over there. But, uh, but anyways, uh, yeah, I think, um- I think the shortcuts are really cool and they're kind of delightful to find. And then, of course, yet another thing that I think From really learned from. And that same feeling, you know, when you, when you blow up some rocks and suddenly you're in the Lost Woods, you get that same feeling in Dark Souls, the first time that you like operate an elevator and realize like, oh, wait, I'm back at Firelink Shrine. Like, how did this even happen? And in that game, of course, it is even, it's much more useful because there's no real other way to get around
until way later in the game when you unlock Fast Travel.
And it's much less magical and kind of more special because that game literally, there's no Lost Woods that's like shortcutting you through.
Yeah, there's no cheating.
Things actually are where they seem to be and you have to actually walk the exact distances, which is its own complexity. I have no transition, but I did want to talk about the Zelda Sheik thing, because it's the other thing that makes this game famous and is something I really love about it. I, I've always been kind of sad that like this is the only game in which Sheik appears. I think it's like a really cool conceit for Zelda to just go and train to become a ninja for seven years. And like, you don't see it happen and like you just kind of get to reap the benefits by being in your weird child mind teenage body of her just already knowing all this stuff and being ahead of you.
But like the idea of Zelda being ahead of you and also often being like a little older than Link is like a long tradition that I've really enjoyed about these games. And that is kind of carried over here because it's part of why in my own headcanon, I see Link as like kind of being younger even when he's older is because she just, she's seen it all. She knows it all.
Yeah, she lived the seven years.
Yeah, and trained to be a ninja in the intervening time. And like, I just, I just think that's so sick. I, I'm sad to say I always knew that twist, so I don't know how I would have reacted to it if I hadn't known. But like, that was kind of like, kind of like how I always knew Samus was a girl. Like, it's like, it was just gaming lore when I was growing up.
Smash Brothers ruined it for everybody.
Yeah, Smash Brothers, which I played tons of before I feel like even knew about this game.
Maddie, did you know that Retro Studios, makers of Metroid Prime, had a Sheik game in development at one point?
No, that's so interesting.
It was canceled. I think it was like the Wii era. And apparently it was shaping up to be bad, according to internet rumors.
I could see that being true.
Could be why it was canceled.
I get it.
Sad that they never explored that concept further because a game where you for to solve puzzles and stuff, you had to switch back and forth between Sheik and Zelda could be super cool.
I know.
I like Sheik's move when she throws the flash bomb and disappears, which happens over and over and over and over. The animation is just so silly.
It's very good.
Thing. It's so great.
And Link is always like, what?
He's always blown away.
That even by then, it was such a trope, like the ninja throwing down the bomb and disappearing like in anime or whatever.
And then it's kind of awkward, like the animation, it's always like, wah, and then she does it, but it kind of rolls every time. It's always a cool.
I like her playing the harp too, her playing the harp with, with the Ocarina is always like, kind of sweet, the idea of the two of them playing together. I really like that.
Well, and that's for me, I mean, I, I always kind of knew this was Zelda, but like,
It's a clue.
To me at least, the fact that Sheik is playing the harp and they're playing together and like, pretty quickly, it's like, okay, well, this has to be Zelda because otherwise, like, where is Zelda? We saw Zelda go off with, you know,
Yeah, with the Impa.
Her protector, who was one of the Sheikas.
So that's, that seems like it might be related to what happened.
By the way, did you guys know that apparently the owl, Kipora Gabora, is Raru, the sage?
Wait, what? Really?
What do you, what do you mean?
Like, Raru and the owl are the same being?
Apparently, this is some deep Ocarina of Time lore. Apparently, Raru was like incarnated as an owl or something. Aurora was like alive many years earlier and then like took on the form. Apparently you learn this from like one of the gossip stones.
Really?
If you.
That is so funny. The gossip stones never lie, so I'm sure that's true. I guess that explains why the owl is telling you so much additional information that you don't need, like Raru is really worried about you figuring it out.
Yeah, I was I was struck in general by how many echoes and similarities there are between this game specifically and Breath of the Wild and then Tears of the Kingdom. Like the Sheikah, the just Ganon being the villain, like the fact that he is this like Gerudo king. Like so much of the story really feels very similar, like it just there are echoes over and over and over. It made me, I got the sense that Breath of the Wild was designed, like they they were like, okay, we're gonna use Ocarina of Time as kind of our reference point. But that's just my feeling and I haven't played all the other Zelda games, but is there something to that? Like, am I right to feel that way?
So the way that Zelda like lore works is that if you kind of, if you look from the beginning, it's got kind of like one layer and then the next game adds another layer and then the third game adds another layer. So as an example, and so on and so forth. So as an example, Link to the Past brings in the Zora and introduces this concept of like these aquatic figures and you meet the Zora and she gives you the flippers and stuff. And then Ocarina of Time brings in the Gorin and the Gerudo and then the Zora and the Gorin and the Gerudo become these like integral parts of Zelda lore in each subsequent game and each game adds new stuff. So like, for example, Skyward Sword adds this concept of, I don't remember if they were called the Zonai, but certainly this concept of an ancient race of people who had
all this modern technology, this advanced technology. And then like Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are kind of the culmination where they're taking these, all of the, they're like, it's taking all of the ideas from all of the previous Zelda games and adding even more to the stew. So a lot of these games, you'll just kind of see the same ideas, just carry it on and on and on and on.
Yeah, I guess that's true. And those are the, like, the, you know, the ones from Ocarina I am familiar with and I'm seeing in the moment. But right, Fi or Phi is the sword in Tears of the Kingdom. Like you hear her theme play and she even talks to Zelda in the same voice from Skyward Sword. Like there are these other echoes of the other games. I'm just not familiar with the other ones, so I don't catch the references.
Yeah, and then there's some interesting story stuff too in like, Wind Waker, I won't spoil it in case you wind up playing through the whole game, Kirk, but like in Wind Waker, there's some interesting, just kind of lore that you get as like a big. Plot twist, in the middle of that game.
Oh, I played that much. I played a lot of.
Oh, you did? Okay, okay.
To be clear, I think I said that, but yeah, that's the one that of the 3D games that I've actually played the most of. I've gotten all the way up toward the very end.
Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.
So yeah, where you discover like the temple with like the whole history of Hyrule and stuff.
Yeah, exactly. And so like, yeah, it's, it's just kind of like the way to think of it, I think, is that like, if each Zelda game is kind of like a legend, like someone telling you the same story with just like embellished details or like different versions of the same story, like, oh, you remember the Legend of Zelda? This is what happened.
It's a big game of telephone, like each teller adds some new details. They're like, well, everyone knows his version. I'm gonna add mine.
Exactly.
Or like more archaeological digs discover something where we're like, oh, actually, we didn't really understand what the deal was with the Zora before. We just knew a little bit and like now here's a more detailed picture. And then like the next dig, they're like, oh, actually.
Whoa, there were these huge octopus spider monster robots that everyone had to fight that apparently covered the world.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Kirk, I feel like I did also notice at least when you're like breaking into the Gerudo Fortress, like that part did really remind me of Tears of the Kingdom as well, or Breath of the Wild specifically, I guess, is when Link has to cross-dress.
Well, because there is a part where you break into the Gerudo Fortress.
And it's like, that part is really similar. And I was like, that feels almost like somebody played Ocarina of Time and was like, but what if Link was wearing a really cute outfit, like all the ladies here? He could probably pass. Like that, that could be something that could work.
What this game needs is a tedious stealth sequence just thrown right into the middle, right when you had a head of steam.
Okay, but actually though, that part of Ocarina, like we complained about the castle guards, but like that Gerudo Fortress is my least favorite part of.
If you want to see how quickly I can look up a guide.
I also look up a guide for that.
Yeah, that's the one. So the problem with that is in a game with like immaculate design, most of the time, the level design in that is so bad.
Because it's just so confusing. All of the rooms look identical. It's just like, it's one of those sections that is just like you, like, you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't just look up a guide on how to do it, because it's just not fun to figure out on your own. That said, you can shoot the Gerudo lady. With like arrows.
With trank darts. That somehow doesn't kill them.
And then they're still unconscious after they become friendly. So they're just lying around unconscious. And I'm like, sorry. My bad.
Also, what's really annoying is that after you get the card and you become like they become.
A card carrying member. Yeah.
They all say the same. They all say the same line of dialogue.
I know. It's like they didn't even bother to like write out a full like story for them to tell you.
Well, so that I that part of the game, it feels, I'm hesitant to use the word rushed because I don't know.
It does though.
But it does feel like that was, it feels like that was some late in the game. It felt like they wanted to add more.
Underbaked.
Underbaked, I think is a great word for it, especially like the fact that the training grounds give you the ice arrows like we were saying before.
Exactly. And it feels like you should have, yeah.
There should be something else here and it's not, it's missing or maybe.
Or even, even that whole desert section, it just feels so different than other parts of the game. Like you're just following a ghost around. Like you kind of, you did that already with Dante in the, in the graveyard, like to get the hookshot or like there's, it just doesn't like have the same, that same kind of, I don't know. It doesn't, doesn't feel quite as polished as other parts of the game, that whole Gerudo section. And obviously it's the last part you do before Ganondorf's castle. And yeah, I don't think.
Doesn't do it any favors.
But that's it. I love the spirit temple. So like that, I think is, is still just as good.
Yeah. It stands out, like you said, because so many of the other temples are so cleverly done. And that one feels like, I don't even really know why this is here, but also like, maybe it's supposed to add kind of some color to Ganondorf's backstory, except it kind of doesn't. And you have to fill in the blanks on that. And I don't know. That's something where I feel like Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom like adds so much more to the Gerudo as, as people and characters. That's like so fun and funny. And they get like all their lines about how Link is short and like have their interplay with him in both games. And like, that's adorable. And it's like, kind of gratifying that those games improve on it, especially when earlier in this very episode, I kind of dissed them for not having amazing adult Link style temples.
Those games have so much other, other color to offer to the series.
Something I really like that both of the recent games do is that they'll have characters from the different regions out on pilgrimages.
Yes, yes.
There's the Goron guy who's out.
You know, you run into him from time to time. There are the, the.
The ladies who are trying to date.
One, yeah, who's just like, I gotta find a guy somewhere, man.
But just that they're on various quests around. And so you get a feel that each of these cultures sort of intermingles within the world. And it's just cool. It makes the world feel a little more alive and gives you a better sense of each of these different places and the people.
Yeah. Storytelling wise, you can see that their chops just continue to evolve because I feel like the Zelda story, Ocarina is way better at storytelling than Link to the Past. And then from there, like Winwaker is even better. And like, I think Tears of the Kingdom is kind of like the best Zelda form of Zelda storytelling yet, even if you aren't a huge fan of like the nonlinear way that the tiers work. I think the micro stories of like getting to each inn and like talking to the characters and how hilarious, like there's so many funny moments where you're like taking pictures of people or just like running into like these hilarious NPCs. I feel like that is, has just gotten better over time, the way that Zelda dialogue works and stories are told.
Going, and going back, I played a lot of Tears of the Kingdom just sort of for fun when the Switch 2 came out. And man, yeah, also the main story of Tears of the Kingdom, like the fact that it's this, there was this missed hand clasp that Link misses her and Zelda falls into darkness. And then the whole game is like built around this motif of like hands coming together and you shake hands with everyone and there's a sound that plays in the music, this like clap, and it builds and builds and builds. And the whole game is like building toward the moment at the end when he like finally catches her. That is, it's awesome. And like they have not done something, for me at least, that was that, that was as effective as that was for me, where it like rocked my world the first time.
And then each time I see it, like replaying the game, I was like, this is so good. Like now that I know where this is going and how it's all structured. So I totally agree that they've really just continually upped the ante on the storytelling in these games.
Mm-hmm. I agree too. Although it has been, just to kind of bring this episode to a close, really wonderful to like play a game that for me is where it all started in terms of the open world Zelda era and that just laid the groundwork for so many of the storytelling tropes and. Just wacky things about Zelda that I love so much. Like, it was just a joy to play through this and I'm so glad we did it. And I'm really happy that you two enjoyed this game as much as I did.
Man, totally agree. This was a great pick, Matty. I'm like so glad I played through it. This was like a total delight. Yes, completely agree.
Um, can I do one more nitpick?
Please, yeah.
I just remembered.
Let's conclude by complaining about things.
With the nitpick.
This is a classic game review format. It's like you put your one criticism at the very end of the review.
Well, no, I, I started this episode with a nitpick about the Shadow Temple and now I have one more nitpick.
It's, it's the old nitpick sandwich.
Exactly. All the good stuff in the middle, all the fluff in the middle. And here are the harsh edges, the burnt edges.
The two, like, ends of the bread that are at the end of the sandwich for some reason. Yeah.
So in the Fire Temple, there was one, so I was thinking about Zelda rhythms and how like the puzzles in Zelda games are never really that tricky. Like, you always feel like you know what to do and you just have to execute. And that's part of the fun rhythm to it is that like you always just feel like, oh, got this, I'm a genius, got this, I'm a genius, et cetera, et cetera. Except there was one puzzle that just stumped me for a while in the Fire Temple. Shortly after you get the Megaton Hammer, you walk into this room, it's kind of L-shaped and the, the long part of the L is going down a stairs. And then you get to the bottom of the stairs and there is a little button and then there's a gate and you step on the button and the gate opens and then you leave the button and the gate closes. And I spent so long just smashing with them, that with my hammer, trying to figure out what am I supposed to do here?
Finally, I looked it up. Turns out you're supposed to go to the beginning and get the little crates and put them on the button. Now, I should have known this because Zelda, like all Zelda games, have that kind of puzzle where you have to push a crate onto a button. The problem is in Ocarina of Time, the crates are so tiny that there's no way in hell that they would actually like stick on that button. In every other Zelda game where you have to push crates around, they're always the size of Link or at least the size of like, like a substantial size to put onto a button. Exactly. In this, they are tiny. And I don't know why that is, but that bothers me so much because I was, I was. Like, it didn't even occur to me that they were crates that should be moved onto something because they are like the size of like Link's thumb.
I think there's like a similar Jabu Jabu's belly tiny crates puzzle as well that I like had a similar problem with where I was like, why are these crates so little?
But in Jabu, no, in Jabu Jabu's belly, you use Rudo to, uh, to put on the, on the buttons.
That's true. I think there's like one time when you need crates. Maybe I must remember.
Oh, maybe. Okay. But this, this one stuck me for so long because it just never occurred to me.
Because they're so small. Anyway.
I think, I have a theory about that because I felt the same way about that. It kind of just stuck out to me. And it's a little bit like, I think back about Chris Dolan's essay about Dark Souls. He talks about a portal puzzle that does this.
Okay.
Where out of nowhere, there's a puzzle, I think it's in Portal 2, where you have to figure out like which of these cubes like doesn't look like the other ones, something like that. And it's a confusing puzzle, not because it's not a good puzzle on its own, but because that's not the kind of game that Portal is and you've been solving a different kind of puzzle forever.
And then suddenly they're like giving you something different. And I got stuck on that. And I do think that it's partly just because once you have the hammer, you know, all the world's a nail.
Like, you're thinking, I need to be hitting things with a hammer now.
Should I be using the hammer?
And really kind of shortly after that, it gives you this puzzle where the solution is actually to go back up the stairs and pick up an item and put it down on the button, which is like very straightforward in the rules of the game. But it's like not the kind of puzzles that you're currently solving. And so your brain just kind of isn't there. So it winds up being this unexpected left turn that can throw you off.
Yeah. But also the crates are just too small. That's the real problem.
The crates are too small. Totally agree.
So seven out of 10.
Yeah, seven out of 10. Kind of a mixed bag. Mixed bag is what we said.
Fans of the genre will, will like it, but it might push newcomers away.
We can't, we can't conclude the episode by saying that. It's a 10 out of 10 in my heart. I love this game. It, it's just, it sticks in my memory and, you know, all the things I dislike about it, I still kind of have a soft spot for despite it all. And yeah, I'm glad we played it. Um, any other final thoughts before we, before we just put the sword back in the stone and become children again forever?
No, what a lovely experience and we should play another Zelda game soon and just talk about it. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I would not be averse to either of you picking whatever Zelda games you want for bets in the future. And like, if every year someone wins and we play a Zelda game, that would be...
That's just all Zelda. Then we'd have to wait two years. No, let's just play a Zelda game. Like, in January, when it's like, there's no new games coming out, let's just play Zelda.
Yeah, we should always remember that Zelda's there for us. Anytime we're like, "What should we do on the show?" We could just play a Zelda game.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
It is the series that we have dedicated the most episodes to already, so we might as well keep that streak going.
And even when we talk about FromSoft games, we're actually talking about Zelda, folks. You heard it here first.
It's all Zelda.
It's all Zelda. It's Zelda's all the way down. And with that, we leave you. Thanks so much for being a Max Fun member. You are, if you're listening to this. And we appreciate every single one of you. And yeah, that's, that's been our episode. And now, we return to Hyrule as Children. But it's gonna be way better, because Ganondorf isn't gonna be around. We'll see you next time in the main timeline.
See ya next time.
I will see both of you in the main timeline.
Bye.
Triple Click is produced by Jason Schreier, Maddy Myers, and me, Kirk Hamilton. I edit and mix the show and also wrote our theme music. Our show art is by Tom Gieje. Some of the games and products we talked about on this episode may have been sent to us for free for review consideration. You can find a link to our ethics policy in the show notes. Triple Click is a proud member of the Maximum Fun Podcast Network. And if you're listening to this bonus episode, it means you're already a member. So thank you. We really appreciate your support. Find us on Twitter at TripleClickPod, send email to [email protected], and find a link to our Discord in the show notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
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