Mel Robbins (on the Let Them Theory)

Mel Robbins (The Let Them Theory, The High 5 Habit, The 5 Second Rule) is a podcast host, entrepreneur, and best-selling author. Mel joins the Armchair Expert to discuss feeling every day in college like the only one who couldn’t make it work, how the human brain is wired to avoid what’s hard, and all the attributions kids make growing up in an unsafe environment. Mel and Dax talk about the reason getting out of bed when you don’t feel like it is a skill, why we are one decision away from a different life, and the fact that there’s always an excuse not to do something. Mel explains when she began course correcting her life one five-second interval at a time, the reality that there’s no amount of talking yourself out of what’s meant for you, and The Let Them Theory. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Buck Rogers Shepherd and I'm joined by Lilly Padman, Donkey Mule Padman.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 0:15Dax Shepard?

  People are gonna be thrilled about today's guest.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  They sure are.

• 0:18Dax Shepard?

  She's so popular and for good reason.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 0:22Dax Shepard?

  Mel Robbins. Mel Robbins is a creator, an entrepreneur, a bestselling author and podcast host. Her books include The Let Them Theory, biggest book of the year.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 0:33Dax Shepard?

  All genres.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 0:35Dax Shepard?

  Over six million copies sold.

• 0:36Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 0:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's like, uh, Sapiens.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  Oh, like Sapiens.

• 0:42Dax Shepard?

  Bible's got her by a few. The High Five Habit and The Five Second Rule. And of course, the Mel Robbins Podcast, where she talks to, to be honest, many of the same people we do.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Some crossover.

• 0:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she has a lot of great experts on and she has a great, uh, understanding and ability to communicate some pretty hard topics scientifically. She's a great layperson intermediary.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:07Dax Shepard?

  Yes, she's a badass. I love her. She's from Michigan. Please enjoy Mel Robbins. This episode of Armchair Expert is presented by Apple Pay. You know, holiday shopping can be a hassle, but Apple Pay makes it so much easier. Whether you're shopping online or in store, look for the Apple Pay button or contactless symbol at checkout. No more digging for your wallet or filling out long online checkout forms. It works at millions of places, including stores, websites and apps. This means you can spend less time at checkout and more time finding the perfect gifts. Pay the Apple way. Terms apply. We get support from Quince.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait.

• 1:54Dax Shepard?

  I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my season. Give me the layers, give me the boots, give me a reason to wear something other than a t-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50. To 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at $60.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  $60. $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories. They skip the middlemen and they just hand you the savings. The stuff isn't trendy. It's the kind of pieces you grab over and over because they work every time.

• 2:35Dax Shepard?

  The 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters for me are it. When I look at Steve McQueen, this man owned a couple of sweaters he wore all the time and he looks iconic.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  It's a uniform.

• 2:45Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  And Quince isn't just about the clothes. They have hotel quality bedding, cookware, bath essentials, thoughtfully designed furniture. You can really go there and outfit your entire apartment or house. So if you're in need of any kind of fall refresh at home too, same quality, same attention to detail for every corner of your life.

• 3:03Dax Shepard?

  Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from AG1. Fall is that time when your body and mind are getting ready for the winter. You're settling in, bracing for the cold. Your body's already running a deficit from the shorter days and broken sleep patterns. You don't want a nutrient deficit stacked on top of that too.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  That's where your AG1 routine earns its spot. It's not fixing your sleep or your alarm time. It's giving your body what it needs. So the dark mornings don't tank you before you even start. One scoop, cold water every morning before anything else.

• 3:52Dax Shepard?

  AG1 Next Gen has 75 plus ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, superfoods, backed by four separate gold standard clinical trials. Key nutrient levels improved with three months of consistent use.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  That's the part people miss. It's not a one day fix. It's what happens when you stay consistent.

• 4:10Dax Shepard?

  It's an easy, everyday thing. I've added it to my morning routine and I'm going to tell you, I actually love the taste of it. It's like Pavlovian. I drink it and I know I'm going to get that little vitamin.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Well, that's also the thing. When you do it first thing in the morning, you already feel kind of self-esteem because you're like, I already did something good for myself.

• 4:27Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Go to drinkag1.com/dax and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/dax and after checkout, be sure to let them know that Armchair Experts sent you.

• 5:09Dax Shepard?

  Are you by Kellington by chance?

• 5:10Speaker 02

  We are about 45 minutes. I live in Vermont.

• 5:13Dax Shepard?

  Be Michiganders if we wanted to go to a real ski hill.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Boyne Mountain, baby.

• 5:17Dax Shepard?

  Well, Boyne Mountain, Shanty Creek. That's your area. Muskegon?

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, Muskegon.

• 5:22Dax Shepard?

  But if you wanted a real 6,000 feet of vertical.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  In Michigan?

• 5:25Dax Shepard?

  Exactly. There isn't any in Michigan. The closest is Kellington.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  The closest 6,000 foot peak is Kellington?

• 5:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  Well, you've really done your geography research.

• 5:35Dax Shepard?

  Well, as a kid, I was into snowboarding.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Wait, hold on. Did you have a snurfer?

• 5:39Dax Shepard?

  Tell me about a snurfer.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  Oh, please. You don't know what a snurfer is?

• 5:44Dax Shepard?

  Please, tell me what a snurfer is.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 5:46Dax Shepard?

  I might know, but it's not ringing about.

• 5:47Speaker 02

  I think it might have been invented in Muskegon, Michigan.

• 5:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  It was a one-way ticket to a broken neck. Basically, it was like a board like this.

• 5:57Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  And then it had two grippy things on the feet. And you would literally stand on it like this.

• 6:03Dax Shepard?

  So far, you're describing a snowboard. Oh, it had the string.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  It had a rope.

• 6:07Dax Shepard?

  I know exactly what you're saying.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Your feet were not even attached.

• 6:10Dax Shepard?

  That's right. It was basically a sled you would stand up on with a cord. Yes, I did do that before.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  So that was a snurfer.

• 6:17Dax Shepard?

  I didn't know that was the name.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's called a snurfer.

• 6:20Dax Shepard?

  It makes sense. They've married snow and surfing.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. And then you could take that, I don't know if it was called sex wax back then, but growing up in Muskegon, it was all sand dunes.

• 6:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Right into Lake Michigan, kinda like Cape Cod, a lot of people.

• 6:32Dax Shepard?

  Silver Lake, Sleeping Bear Dunes.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  And so you would wax that sucker up or put some Crisco on it if you couldn't afford the wax, which is what we did, and right down the sand.

• 6:41Dax Shepard?

  We have a tiny age gap, and this is where snowboarding came to be when I was like in 7th grade. So we would take the snowboards to the sand dunes as well and get towed up by a four wheeler and then go down.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that idea, four wheeler towing you up.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  So you're adventurous.

• 6:58Speaker 02

  Yes. When you grow up in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere, you gotta make your own fun. You're in the middle of a field drinking.

• 7:04Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Like hoping whoever owns it doesn't come out in their tractor or their snowmobile with a shotgun.

• 7:10Dax Shepard?

  Field parties.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yes, field parties.

• 7:12Dax Shepard?

  So my guess is we had a semi-similar cultural upbringing. What were mom and dad doing in Muskegon? There's not a ton of employment there, is there?

• 7:21Speaker 02

  No, there's not. It had a big company called Seal Power. Then that kinda went somewhere else in like a lot of industry in Michigan. It was very much tied to automotive, and so lots of spring manufacturers and machinists, and then it got very ag and rural right after that. So my mom, for quite a while, was stay at home and took care of us and also did a ton of volunteering. She grew up in a huge farm in Buffalo, New York. Her favorite thing to do, we would go to the farmer's market. And she knew everybody's name. I mean, we would go to those outdoor stalls and I would be eight years old, like, can we just pick out the patty pan squash for crying out loud? Do we have to talk to Fred about his dog and about his 15 grandkids?

• 8:05Speaker 02

  She just was incredibly engaged in the community. And my dad was an orthopedic surgeon. I'm gonna get all the facts wrong, but you're gonna get them correct after this. So this was in the prime of Muskegon, Tammy, Fay Baker.

• 8:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  They were like the claim to fame to Muskegon, which is not a great claim to fame. I don't think she was there, but I think they were from there.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  And so it was a much bigger, more booming kind of town in the 70s and 80s.

• 8:31Dax Shepard?

  What would you say the population was then?

• 8:33Speaker 02

  God, I'm gonna guess.

• 8:34Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  I don't even know.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  This is not a good question.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Hundred thousand, two hundred, I don't know.

• 8:38Dax Shepard?

  This is not a good question.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  I literally have no idea. But so the cool thing about my dad is that this was before Minute Clinics. When you grew up in a small town, the town doesn't work unless everybody works in it. So my dad was on city council. My mom was engaged in just about every community activity you could be involved in. My dad was the hometown doc for both the football team. And he was also the hometown doc for the Muskegon Lumberjacks.

• 9:04Dax Shepard?

  Do you think friends of yours were so embarrassed when they went to the hospital? It was like your dad walked in like, oh my God, I gotta show him this thing. I'm like.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  When you're an orthopedic surgeon and you've got a femur sticking out of a leg, you're not embarrassed, you're dying to see a doctor, right?

• 9:18Dax Shepard?

  True.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  But here's what happened. Since there were no minute clinics, if your dad's a doc in a small town, your kitchen becomes a minute clinic.

• 9:26Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  So people were constantly coming by and you'd have a cup of coffee. So tell me about what's going on with your neck. What happened to your ankle?

• 9:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  Like that kind of thing. And then I used to watch him for the Muskegon Lumberjacks, which was the farm league for the Pittsburgh Penguins. He would come after work and he'd be all dressed up and we'd be in the MC Walker arena and people with their cowbills and the whoa, you know, with the hockey thing. And then one of the guys would get busted up because they'd throw the mitts off and start fighting. And my dad would be shuffling out there in his little loafers to stitch somebody up on ice because they didn't want to go back there. And so I just grew up, it sounds like you as well, just in this sense that everybody's got a role to play. And being engaged with other people, caring about other people.

• 10:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Being involved in your community is just something I witnessed.

• 10:20Dax Shepard?

  You know, I just had this interesting experience where I've been here for 30 years in LA. And then we have since built a place in a small town outside of Nashville and spent the whole summer there. And just the simplest thing occurred to me. It's like, I can't tailgate somebody here. I'm gonna see them at the gas station tomorrow, right? Like, I can't flip anyone off. And just that simple awareness of like, oh, right, you're not anonymous here. And that's a very abstract but powerful thing that a big city gives you is like anonymity. And with that anonymity, behavior kind of erupts that otherwise maybe wouldn't. And even if you don't have a lofty sense of community, which I don't, just the simple fact that you will be held accountable and you're not anonymous

• 11:03Dax Shepard?

  and your behavior is being seen and you'll have to account for it is like a very powerful force.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  I agree with you.

• 11:09Dax Shepard?

  That I totally lost sight of because I've just been here for so long.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  How big was the town that you grew up in?

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Oh, boy. Another question I have no answer.

• 11:15Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna guess.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Small, medium, big.

• 11:17Dax Shepard?

  Medium, right?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Duluth?

• 11:19Dax Shepard?

  Thirty-five, forty thousand is gonna be my guess.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably. So, small to medium.

• 11:25Dax Shepard?

  Atlanta suburb.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  A suburb.

• 11:26Dax Shepard?

  Big mall.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Definitely community-based.

• 11:29Dax Shepard?

  Thirty thousand, I don't think.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  It has a fall festival. Everyone goes. I was in the parade. Yes.

• 11:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, parade.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, I think there's this dual thing that I've reflected on a lot, which is, number one, there's this sense of being connected to something, and the sense of being known, and the sense of, whether you call it conscientiousness, that your behavior actually impacts other people.

• 11:51Dax Shepard?

  You'll be observed.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yes. So whether you're positively impacted because you want a good reputation, or you just don't want to get in trouble, it has an impact on you stopping to think about how your behavior impacts others. But it also, for me, anyway, as I started to grow up, I don't know about you guys, but you start to have this sense, like, get me the hell out of here.

• 12:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, right, that's the flip side of the coin, is that I have to play by these rules because I'm not anonymous and I'm accountable. And what if I don't like the rules? Right? Like, what if I'm not in concert with the mores of this small town? Then I need to go somewhere else, which I did.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Mixed with your identity gets kind of cemented, and everyone knows you, and so it's hard to break out of that when everyone has already put you in one spot. So you have to almost leave to create your next one.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Yes, or at least that's what we tell ourselves.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  That's what we tell ourselves.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Right? That kind of, I need the clean slate. I gotta get out of here. I wanna reinvent myself.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  I think it's real. Like, I have friends coming in town tomorrow from home. All my best friends from home, they're all coming. It's so fun. I'm so excited. But it is so funny, when we all get back together, everyone resumes. They're coming here, where I live.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Where I'm building a house. We're gonna fall back into our old hierarchical pattern. Like, I know it, it just will happen regardless.

• 13:11Dax Shepard?

  But my question for you is, is there discomfort in that? Because I too resume my role, but I get nostalgic and I love it. I'm like, oh, right, I'm the jester and I'm supposed to be crazy and I like it. Now in this life, I'm kind of responsible.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  I don't dislike it, it's just interesting. I am playing a different role here than I play in my daily life. There is something safe about it, I will say. There's something like, oh, this is like, will always exist.

• 13:35Dax Shepard?

  You know how to do this. It's like when you get back on Skeez, oh, yeah, I know how to do this. I know how to play this role.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  I mean, you're probably better snowboarder than I am, so it takes me a couple runs.

• 13:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so what seems obvious, probably because Dad was a doctor, but school has to be really valued in your house. Maybe even asymmetric to your surroundings. The fact that you go to Dartmouth, I can't imagine is a really popular destination.

• 13:58Speaker 02

  I was the first person in my high school to ever go there.

• 14:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  And I was a great student, but terrible study habits. So I'm like one of these people that can somehow just ace a test, but I can't write a paper.

• 14:09Dax Shepard?

  We learn later at 47 why that is, but we'll earmark that.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so I just crushed the SATs.

• 14:16Speaker 01

  What'd you get?

• 14:17Speaker 02

  What did I get? Well, for me, this is crushing. I got a 1440.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Yes, so like an 800 on the math.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Wow, perfect score on math.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  And so it literally made me go, oh, let's get out of here. You're gonna go to Western, you're gonna go to Central, or you're gonna go to State, or if you're lucky, you go to U. Mish. So I'm like, I'm going somewhere else. And so we loaded up the car and we took a road trip and we went to all the big schools in the east. I had no idea that so many of these schools are actually in the city. And so we go to all these premier schools and it was kind of like one city experience after another. And I'm like, this doesn't feel like college. And then we get to Dartmouth. It was a gorgeous day. I knew nothing about the school.

• 14:59Dax Shepard?

  It's in New Hampshire as well?

• 15:00Speaker 02

  It's in Hanover, New Hampshire. Beautiful bluebird skies, beautiful green. There's dogs running around.

• 15:06Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  People throwing a frisbee. I get out and I'm like, this is college.

• 15:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  I applied early, I got in, and that was it. And I always say to my, our kids, if I had applied now, I'd never get in.

• 15:17Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  Geographic diversity, you're talking 1986, nobody had ever applied for my school. Great on paper.

• 15:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  But I didn't know what the hell I was doing.

• 15:25Dax Shepard?

  Were you always gonna pursue a law degree?

• 15:28Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 15:29Dax Shepard?

  What did you think you were gonna do?

• 15:30Speaker 02

  I thought I would become a doctor and cure cancer.

• 15:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  And then I took one chemistry class and said, I can't do this and smoke weed. And so I think I'm not gonna become a doctor. Sure.

• 15:40Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  And then I dabbled and I got a history and a film and a women's studies triple major. Wow.

• 15:47Dax Shepard?

  The history one's a great transfer for law, right? They need a lot of reading.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  I guess, but I was the queen of all-nighters. I look back on my years at Dartmouth and I feel like I squandered that experience because I was in what I would call peak dysfunction.

• 16:02Dax Shepard?

  What did that look like?

• 16:02Speaker 02

  Constant drinking.

• 16:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, sure, sure.

• 16:04Speaker 02

  It looked like being in a relationship for a year and then starting to feel anxious again because I realize now, looking back, now that I've put all the pieces together through a tremendous amount of work, is that with undiagnosed ADHD, with undiagnosed dyslexia, and with past trauma, that I had no idea had happened. I lived in a constant state of being in fight or flight.

• 16:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like arousal state of...

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Oh, just like on edge all the time. And I was trying so hard to do what I was supposed to do, whether it's get up and get to class. It felt impossible. I would go to the stacks and I would be so intense. Okay, I've got my books, I'm gonna sit down. It's a week before exams and I've barely been able to make it to class. I've gotten some of the assignments in and then I would sit down and it was as if my stomach growling was at volume 100. I could hear you two idiots chattering over in the corner.

• 17:09Dax Shepard?

  No, the quad, they said, well, they're gonna get together in the quad.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Exactly. And I've gone to the place where you're supposed to study, not the popular, like, place to chat in the library.

• 17:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  And I just constantly felt like I was the only person.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Who couldn't make it work. Every day of college, I had that nightmare. You know the nightmare, maybe you don't have this one, where you're in a dream and it's finals week? And you realize that you have signed up for a class that you've never gone to?

• 17:40Dax Shepard?

  Monica still has the dream and just talked about it on a past episode.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, mine's different. I always feel pretty prepared in that way. Mine is that I realize I am a credit short.

• 17:52Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  And I can't graduate and everyone's graduated and I'm like, oh my God, I didn't, oh, finish. And now I gotta take this other class. How did I not do that?

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:02Dax Shepard?

  Question about the trauma?

• 18:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:03Dax Shepard?

  You said you later realized it was trauma. Is that because you didn't remember it? Or something happened that you didn't know should be labeled trauma? That you now know should be labeled trauma?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  I didn't remember it. I had had this incident when I was in the fourth grade up in northern Michigan, where we were on a big ski vacation. We were a new family. We had been hosted by some other families and all the kids were in a big bunk room. And I was in a bottom bunk. I was probably fourth grade.

• 18:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so ten.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  And I was sound asleep. When you're asleep, you are safe. And I remember waking up in the middle of the night and there was an older kid on top of me. And it was a very confusing experience because it's gonna sound weird. There was something that felt good about it, but scary about it. But I'm a fourth grader.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  I don't know what's happening. And I immediately, I guess they call it possuming, where you kinda go like this.

• 18:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  And I don't even know what happened next. I just remember rolling over and then I looked to my right and my baby brother was sleeping in the other bunk bed. And I thought, I need to be quiet because I don't want this person to do anything to him.

• 19:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  And then it was over.

• 19:10Dax Shepard?

  And you probably disassociated.

• 19:12Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. And pulled the covers over my head. To this day, you guys, I sleep with a pillow over my head and I burrow. I think it's still a response

• 19:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  to this feeling of that experience being frozen in my body. And so the next morning, I stayed in bed hidden until all the kids left. And you hear the clamoring downstairs and they go all off to ski. And I think I'm safe. And I come down the stairs and I see the parents in there. And my mom says, how'd you sleep? And I immediately wanted to say something to her.

• 19:46Dax Shepard?

  Right. But you can't.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  I saw the kid. And what's interesting is that you guys have had Gabor Maté.

• 19:55Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  He said something to me, you know when somebody says something to you that it's almost like they take a wedge and then a sledgehammer and it splits you in half? Yeah, he has that ability. He looked at me and said, Mel, the trauma isn't what happened. Yes, that was a terrible thing that happened. The trauma was that you, as a child, actually kept it to yourself.

• 20:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  And you didn't have the ability to get the help that you needed. And when he explained that, and it made me really reflect on how, you know, a lot of us have that kind of lone wolf syndrome. I gotta do it myself, nobody's gonna help anyway, nobody understands. That there is that through line. And the other thing that was a major through line is I realized that I think one of the reasons why to this day it's still hard for me to get out of bed. There are people that can spring out of bed, first of all, they're weirdos.

• 20:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, fuck those people.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  I don't know who the hell is like that. Yeah, fuck hell. But for me, every morning, even on a good day, I still have that response.

• 21:02Dax Shepard?

  Rested kind of, yeah.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  And of course, the higher cortisol levels, being a woman and all that kind of stuff doesn't necessarily help, but it is very helpful to me to understand that there are things that you experience in life that might be out of your control, but when you start to understand some of the settings, whether it's in your body, or in your emotional temperament, or in the way your mindset is, that if you understand some of these settings, that there are small adjustments that you can make so you don't personalize it. Because I used to lay in bed in the morning and be like, I'm a loser, why do I feel this way, something bad's gonna happen, and it would just send my day this way. And what I've now learned is that I can have that feeling and not add anything to it and

• 21:49Speaker 02

  go, oh, there it is again, let's get the fuck up. Yeah.

• 21:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the chorus of judgment that follows the observation that then becomes its own way worse condition.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:58Dax Shepard?

  It's like this disappointment and judgment that I feel this way.

• 22:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:01Dax Shepard?

  I'm broken, I'm defective, I shouldn't be this way, I'm lazy, I'm all these things, yeah. And then the self-flagellation, what a fucking waste of energy.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  But so many of us do it. I mean, do you do that in the morning? Oh, yeah, I love to sleep. And I never wanna get. Sleep is good, but do you have that like negative thing in the morning?

• 22:18Speaker 01

  I actually don't think I punish myself, but I do have, I'm like, I don't want to get out. I don't want to start because once I start, then it's like, okay, then we have all the stuff we have to do. It feels overwhelming.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  So I don't want to start, but I don't blame, I'm not like I'm lazy. I'm more just like, God, my life is overwhelming. I'm aware of that.

• 22:40Dax Shepard?

  We have different, mine is you're a piece of shit, you're lazy, you're a fucking coward. It's all stuff I would not say to my worst enemy.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Unbelievable that our own minds will do this.

• 22:49Dax Shepard?

  I just hate myself.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Do you still hate yourself?

• 22:51Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no, I've really gotten way, way, way, way better. But for a big chunk of my life, probably what gets coupled to that, and I wonder if this is the case for you, which is, it ends up being this motivator and then I rely on it and that becomes like my workflow. So it's like, how do you uncouple this thing that has gotten you to take these chances that you otherwise wanted? Or get yourself out of bed? Now I've come to believe and have proof of it that, no, no, I can do all this stuff without that. It was just a fear I had. I just had done it that way for so long that I got nervous that that's how it had to be done.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  I think it's a great question and if I really try to distill the thing that you were just saying, you are talking about two different things, at least that's what I heard. So one is that there is some value for some people in the berating and what you would call the negative emotion, the negative motivation. And while that's true, I do think that there's a lot of research that's been done to say that that sort of berating isn't actually motivating at all. And that you can decouple things and go, oh, that thing looks cool and I'm scared of it. And now I'm going to talk to myself differently to do it.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  But the second thing that I think is deeper and what you're really touching on is that in terms of the motivational circuitry inside of us.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  We don't really understand it.

• 24:19Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  And the person that explained it to me the best was Dr. K, the Healthy Gamer guy. He's unbelievable.

• 24:25Dax Shepard?

  Okay, don't know him.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Oh my, you have to get him on.

• 24:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  He is so fantastic. He was a guy that got like a 2, 3 in college, came from a family where everybody needed to be a doctor, and then he'll have to tell you the story, but he ends up applying 93 times, like to medical school.

• 24:42Dax Shepard?

  Oh wow.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Gets in and then gets his clinical training at Harvard's McLean Hospital. And he specialized in gaming addictions. And so now what he does is trains other therapists on treating people who have gaming addictions, and he does a ton of stuff on Twitch.

• 24:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh wow.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  So he's so frickin' cool, but here's what he basically said. The human brain is wired to move towards what's easy. That's why we lay in bed.

• 25:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we avoid discomfort.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Completely, and it's not even avoid, we're wired to move away from it.

• 25:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  And since we don't understand that pain is part of the process, we're always stepping on the brake when we could be stepping on the gas. And so he basically said, until a situation gets more painful than where you are, you actually will not change. For example, you know, I've had a long journey with sobriety. A lot of the experts that I spoke to, in particular in researching the work for the let them theory, all kept saying, people don't get sober until being drunk is harder than doing the thing that you need to do that you've been avoiding. And same thing is true about weight, about being motivated at school. You don't actually have that moment where you're like positively, I'm inspired to change.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  What typically happens is you get to the point where you're like, I am so sick and tired of this shit, that I'm willing to go against my own wiring and move toward this thing I've been talking myself out of.

• 26:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Because staying here hurts more. I think one of the other mistakes that we make in life, both with ourselves and with the people that we care about, is that we tend to be very judgy. And it seems so easy when you're looking at somebody else, oh, it would be so easy for you to just do this thing.

• 26:23Dax Shepard?

  Don't buy the cigarettes.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yes, and the truth is, I think we forget that if you take, for example, kids that are in a classroom, who is the hardest working kid in a classroom? It's not the kid who's getting A's. It's the kid who's failing because they're sitting in a classroom knowing that they're not able to thrive. They're sitting there knowing that there is this potential that they cannot reach. You know how challenging that is?

• 26:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  And yet, I've made so many mistakes as a parent where I'll just come marching in like some know it all and tell our son, "You know, you better get off the Xbox if you..." As if he is some idiot that doesn't know that you need to kind of put in more of the work. He's playing Xbox because he's good at it. That's why he's not doing school because it's hard.

• 27:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, right, right, right. It's pretty simple.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  So now I'm working against the actual laws of motivation and now I'm shaming him.

• 27:19Dax Shepard?

  We're incentive creatures and now you're asking him to not be an incentive creature.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Speaking of that, I was just thinking about how we were both saying how we wake up and we have different motivations, I guess. You wake up and you're like, "I'm bad."

• 27:33Dax Shepard?

  You too. I just want to say, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Okay, you wake up and your thought is, "I'm bad," so your day is about proving you're good. And my waking up is, "I'm not good enough."

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  So my day is about proving I'm good enough, working a ton. It is all about how you wake up and see yourself and you spend the day trying to prove that wrong and it's so exhausting for everyone.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yes. You know, the other thing that's interesting about mornings and, you know, again, look into this because I would love to find the study on this, but there's a huge moment for a lot of people that grew up in very chaotic or abusive households or have all kinds of adverse things that have happened to them with the actual experience of waking up. Because if you as a child were waking up in a household where you're like, "Okay, who's downstairs? Are they drunk? Like, what's gonna go down?"

• 28:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, is there a broken glass on the floor in the kitchen?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Yes. You have a lived experience. Of waking up in a threatening state emotionally or physically, that's true. A lot of adults have this kind of legacy from that and don't understand why there is this feeling of dread or this feeling of I'm not enough. For me, I would wake up and my experience was, somebody's mad at me. I've done something wrong.

• 28:56Dax Shepard?

  Gosh, okay, this is phenomenal right here because my brother and I have been bonding a lot lately over this. My brother has it worse than me. He and I have the same thing. I'm trying to break myself of it because it drives my kids bonkers, rightly so. Which is like, I'm always in trouble. If someone's unhappy, I'm like, are you okay? My first thought is that I do something. My baseline is, am I in trouble that I do something? And my brother has it so bad. It's easy for me to see it in him and I've had to confront it myself and my kids are also great communicators.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Did you actually talk to Gabor about this?

• 29:29Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Okay, so can I, can I just like lay something on you?

• 29:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I want to hear, I want to hear.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Clearly, I'm not a therapist. We're just armchair experts sitting here.

• 29:37Dax Shepard?

  We're two peers chatting about what we've learned in life.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  So, one of the things that might be interesting for you to experiment with, because the language that we use as a kid is, I'm the problem. I learned this from Dr. Paul Conti from Stanford. And he's the guy that wrote the big book about trauma. He was Lady Gaga's psychiatrist. He's unbelievable.

• 30:00Dax Shepard?

  Not the body keeps the score.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  No, huh? I can't remember who wrote that book, but Dr. Paul Conti at Stanford, he basically said that the human being has such a unbelievably mesmerizingly intelligent design. Like, if you really just think about, how does a human being go from a blob, just the encoding to grow into, it's unbelievable.

• 30:23Dax Shepard?

  No, I'm driving my kids to school and I'm often, I'll say to them like, we're just one of the monkeys, guys, but somehow, look at all this shit. We made like we're on a run an overpass. What is cement? How do we? It's bonkers.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  It's incredible, but there's one gap. That's actually a very cruel thing. That happens in childhood development that is called attribution. Meaning when you're a little kid and shit's going sideways around you. You do not have the development yet of something that they call attribution, which means as a little kid, if mom or dad comes home and they throw something, you're like this, you don't have the ability to attribute that behavior out there.

• 31:03Dax Shepard?

  Something that happened at work.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  Yes, you attribute it to here. It's my fault. So the I did something bad is the language that gets developed. When you're in that developmental window as a kid. And now I want to add in one more thing that's been helpful for me. Because this is tied to your safety. And now all the people around you are out of control or the sound's out of control or their mood's out of control or the beer can is getting cracked. And now shit's going to go sideways or a big one for people is the wheels on the driveway.

• 31:33Dax Shepard?

  No, the way the car pulls into the driveway is very telling. The way the door shuts, how long does it take the person to get to the front door?

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:44Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Bonnie, I can't believe it's almost the holidays. You know what that means, right?

• 31:56Speaker 01

  I sure do. My annual holiday gift guide.

• 32:00Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I love when you break out your gift suggestion.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  You're a good steward of my, my holiday gift guide.

• 32:06Dax Shepard?

  I'm entirely reliant on it.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Well, I like doing it. I like picking out the perfect present. Like one of my more recent ones, this, I'll give it to you now ahead of time.

• 32:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  For your coffee lovers. Okay, there's an amazing small batch roaster downtown.

• 32:21Dax Shepard?

  The ones with those Ethiopian beans I'm obsessed with?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yes, and they take Apple Pay right at the counter, which is so easy. So you just double click the side button on my iPhone, authenticate with Face ID, tap and pay. That easy.

• 32:34Dax Shepard?

  Uh, what about for people who don't live locally?

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Well, that's where the real fun starts. I found this artist who makes these custom star maps. Um, it shows the night sky from any special date. So you could do an anniversary or a birthday.

• 32:46Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. That sounds cool, but doesn't all this online shopping get tedious with the different websites?

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Not at all. When I check out online, I click the Apple Pay button, authenticate on my Apple device and done. It's so easy. No lengthy checkout forms required.

• 33:01Dax Shepard?

  Keep the suggestions coming. What else you got?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Okay, book lovers, ding ding ding. I personally love supporting local bookstores. They're also just so fun. And you can go to their website. And then for crafty friends, there are these amazing do it yourself kits.

• 33:17Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you really do have a gift for, well, gifts.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Thank you. Whether I'm shopping in person or online, Apple Pay works at a million places. It makes it so much easier to focus on finding those perfect thoughtful presents.

• 33:31Dax Shepard?

  Instead of wasting time typing in card numbers, which I cannot stand.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Exactly. Same. More time for holiday magic, less time for payment hassle.

• 33:38Dax Shepard?

  Pay the Apple way. Terms apply. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace, and I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas, but he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing. And Squarespace was that bridge. Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skill set, a body of work, and it's been private. It's been yours, but at some point you're ready to put it out there. And that transition from private to public can feel like a huge leap. Squarespace makes it feel like a step.

• 34:17Dax Shepard?

  Beautiful templates, built-in SEO, email campaigns, scheduling, analytics, everything you need to go from, I've been working on this to here it is, come find me. All in one place, no code, no stitching together a bunch of different tools. So if you've been sitting on something and waiting for the right moment, this might be it. Head to Squarespace.com/dax for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code DAX to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. We get support from Scottsdale, Arizona. Monica, with summer ending or heading into fall, I've been researching a nice, quick getaway location, and I keep coming back to Scottsdale, Arizona.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  Ooh, Scottsdale's good. What's drawing you to it?

• 35:00Dax Shepard?

  Well, first of all, I have this wonderful memory of going there as a kid when I would go see my stepdad when he was working out there. The weather is perfect in fall. Warm, sunny, no humidity. And you can really do whatever you want with your time there. I want to do a sunrise hike through the Sonoran Desert, be surrounded by Saguaro, and then at the same afternoon, just completely melt into a spa treatment at one of their luxury resorts.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Oh, that sounds amazing. I want to do that. Also, I was there visiting my brother once, and I loved Old Town Scottsdale. It's so walkable. They have galleries and cute little restaurants and shops. The food scene alone is worth the trip.

• 35:39Dax Shepard?

  What I keep reading is that it's luxurious, but not stuffy. There's no pressure to do it a certain way. You can explore public art, check out the architecture, go off-roading in the desert, or just sit and watch a sunset.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  It really is the perfect fall reset.

• 35:53Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about all Scottsdale has to offer at unwindinscottsdale.com. We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, the skills, and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's faculty aren't just academics.

• 36:38Dax Shepard?

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• 37:01Speaker 03

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• 37:38Speaker 02

  Well, this is all the remembered stuff. And then you go, uh-oh, I've done something. But then what kids do, because now we feel unsafe, is we now think we have to do something to make it okay for everybody else.

• 37:54Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm. Did you have tics and superstitions as a kid?

• 37:58Speaker 02

  How did you know that?

• 37:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because I had insane tics.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Not tics, but superstitions.

• 38:01Dax Shepard?

  Right, because you can't control the uncontrollable, so you start devising different mechanisms.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  So give me one of your crazy ones.

• 38:08Dax Shepard?

  Simple stuff. Scuff your heel, you gotta do it on the other side. Everything's gotta be even. I had to do every single thing twice. I developed all these like, huh, you know, if I can check that and I can hear that thing, then everything's gonna be cool. But they're all superstitions. Like, if I can complete these tasks, I will have some impact over this scenario. And when I look at when it was at its peak, it was also at the peak of the worst stepdad, right? So it's quite obvious to me. Superstitions and tics, I think they're bedfellows. And I'm curious, so you did, you had a lot of superstitions?

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Did you have any? Yeah, I think so. No tics, but also my family was superstitious.

• 38:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she's got the built-in Indian thing where it's like, on New Year's, if everyone's not present, there will not be good health to everybody. Like, there's a lot of built-in cultural...

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Start the year together, end the year together. So it's like, oh, God, like, you have to do that. There was a prayer I did at night that I invented.

• 38:57Speaker 02

  Do you still do it?

• 38:58Speaker 01

  I don't do it anymore.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  What is the prayer?

• 39:00Dax Shepard?

  I think it's a sign of growth.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  I wanna hear the prayer. What is the prayer?

• 39:02Speaker 01

  No, I can't say it. I'm superstitious about that.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  Really?

• 39:06Dax Shepard?

  It avoids it out.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  It's basically just, these are the things I pray that won't happen. So it is all fear-based, kind of.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Well, and then what's interesting is, isn't there research that since your mind is literally not a storage unit, it's a processor and a spotlight? That focusing on what you don't want to have happen actually has your mind look for it more?

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Oh, 100%. Yeah, and there's like categories, like natural disasters and kidnappers and robbers is a category. There's an age, I will say like, my family will live up to this age. It was a whole thing. I would have to do that at night. And if I didn't, of course, everyone's dead.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Isn't that kind of sad if you stop and think about it? A little girl laying in bed, the weight of the world and all this stuff that you're feeling and how we try to negotiate with ourselves. I was so afraid of just getting killed. I don't know what it was. If it was Poltergeist, if it was Fantasy Island. I don't know what it was that got in my little brain. But so for my superstition, I developed this thing that I was convinced that that fucking clown from Poltergeist was under my bed and was gonna pull me under it. That I had exactly three steps to flip off the light, hop, hop, hop, on the bed.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  In order to be safe. But then I couldn't get off the bed all night.

• 40:27Dax Shepard?

  See, I would call that a tick.

• 40:28Speaker 02

  That's a tick?

• 40:29Dax Shepard?

  I would call that, because it is a physical behavior you have been active, like in the OCD sense. You have an obsession about the clown, the compulsion is this thing. I think that's a tick, in essence.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  It could be, but I'll tell you, to this day, I'm gonna admit something to you. There are times, especially as a 57-year-old woman who has to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. I will have that experience of having to get up and I will literally lay under the sheets, Chris is sound asleep next to me. Dogs don't even wake up when I stir. And I try to go back to sleep because I do not want to get out of bed. Because I know there will be... Not Poltergeist, because I now am not dumb, Monica. I have a bed that does not have space under it. So it actually hits the floor.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  So you figured it out.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Yes. But as I go around the bed and into the bathroom, you have to put your hand around the wall to turn on the switch. I'd say nine times out of 10, as I go to reach my hand around, I have a visualization. That there is a creepy ass alien hand. That comes and grabs my hand. And I have to, as a 57 year old grown ass woman, say to myself, there's no hand, Mel. It just like walk past it. It's like a brain fart that tortures me. I don't know how to get rid of it. What is that? Do you have anything like that?

• 41:51Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  I'm not really admitting that I'm insane right now.

• 41:54Dax Shepard?

  I relate in an adjacent thing, which is the phenomenon of the shoe's gonna drop. That's the thing I wish I could rid myself of that I still struggle with.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Give me an example of a recent time.

• 42:03Dax Shepard?

  Just the moment I acknowledge things are nice and I'm grateful, pretty immediately, there's a little swell of fear that somehow it's all gonna get taken away. We'd be up there recording when we recorded up there and I'm like, someone's gonna knock on the door and go like, we're so sorry, big mistake. This show isn't big. You're not making a living. This is not real. The shoe is gonna drop thing is probably, I don't wanna say the last, but it's one of the things I would love to say goodbye to that I can't figure out how.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  I don't know how.

• 42:30Dax Shepard?

  But to me, a demon hand around a corner is a little bit of shoe like, there's something lurking always that's gonna take away anything that's good.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  The thing that sucks about it is that if you really unpack that experience of the what if, or the other shoe's gonna drop, or I can't let things get too good, or I can't be too happy. And so you hold space over here for, oh, but something might go wrong. Don't allow yourself to really relax into this. It's really sad.

• 43:02Dax Shepard?

  It is. And it's complicated. I think it's dynamic. It's not one thing, right?

• 43:05Speaker 02

  I think it's related to what we've been talking about.

• 43:07Dax Shepard?

  I do. I was just thinking of how clever your subconscious is and how unaware of it you are and how it is trying to protect you at all times. But the way it tries to protect you is obviously damaging in a lot of ways. And I was like, The most helpful thing that the subconscious could give us is it should have to show its math. Like my kid's right now in fifth grade, if she does an equation, she has to show how she got to here.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  Show your work.

• 43:32Dax Shepard?

  So it's like, when I just have an impulse, like, you know what, I should go buy this great coat. I already decided I'm gonna feel good when I do it. I should be able to glance and go like, how did we get to here where I need to buy a new coat? I'd like to see the math of it. Like, I just would love to know how the subconscious is creating all these bizarre motivations for us that it believes is going to soften some blow or help us.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  Couple of things that I wanted to say about all the stuff that we've been talking about the other shoe is that I used to live in deep fear of everything going sideways, losing it all, not being worth anything. And one of the things that I'm really grateful for is that all of the success that you see came after almost losing everything that matters. Like, this happened very late in life for me. At the age of 41, I almost lost our house, my marriage, our family almost got torn apart.

• 44:22Dax Shepard?

  So, Boston College, law degree, practices law in New York City, doesn't love that, actually becomes the CNN correspondent during the Zimmerman trial. Things are going great, she can move between these occupations. Husband has started a pizza restaurant.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Boy, you do your homework, Dad.

• 44:38Dax Shepard?

  I try to. You have children, everything should be honky-dory, 2008, meltdown, lose the restaurant, you can't get out of bed, you drink too much.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Yes, I lose my job.

• 44:48Dax Shepard?

  You wanna get divorced, you hate your marriage, you hate your career, you hate everything.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  So it's 2008, which was a lousy year for a lot of people, and we found ourselves $800,000 in debt. We didn't have that money to begin with.

• 44:59Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  That was the home equity line, that was credit cards, that was factoring against the...

• 45:03Dax Shepard?

  Home equity and a house that's no longer worth what it was when you got...

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Correct, and friends and family had invested.

• 45:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  And it wasn't like they were trying to fail. You got one open, things were going sideways, you got friends and family involved, you're in a small community, three kids under the age of 10, leans on the house, bills piled sky high, I've lost my job, and in these moments, it's so much easier to be angry.

• 45:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  At your husband, I would lay in bed in the morning... I hate my life, I hate my husband, what the hell? I didn't have anything to do with this?

• 45:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 02

  That is the beginning.

• 45:40Dax Shepard?

  How severe is the drinking, just because I'm an addict? I want to know what's happening during this time.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  I would say probably four to five Manhattans a night.

• 45:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. You're getting bombed every night.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  Every night. I would be in a chair like that, although not that nice. In our living room, Chris and I would have been fighting. The drinking would start after the kids went to bed, time to check out. You want to know how to know when you're failing at parenting?

• 46:00Dax Shepard?

  How?

• 46:00Speaker 02

  I'd like to most embarrassed to tell you this. But our kids would wake us up after missing the bus.

• 46:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, nobody wakes up and says, you know what, today I think I'm gonna fuck up my life.

• 46:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly.

• 46:17Speaker 02

  That's not how it works. And what happens is you slowly start to make decisions that aren't really on center. You start sliding with your own character and values.

• 46:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  And you start betting on a dream and a fantasy instead of living in reality. And you don't want to face what's not working. And so you keep ignoring it.

• 46:42Dax Shepard?

  And it's a self-fueling cycle.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 46:44Dax Shepard?

  So the worse you feel, the more you're doing that.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  Correct. And by the way, there are also things that happen in life that aren't fair and are out of your control, a global recession. The fact that there were six Nor'easters that year, meaning the restaurant closed six weekends in a row. Now, I understand, looking back. I didn't understand anything about the mind or body. I didn't understand anything about the way that anxiety, or your mindset, or your nervous system, or stress can really become chronic. And then when your amygdala takes over and you're venting and venting and venting, you are now creating this pattern in your brain. And that means I can now look back with compassion. But if you're in that state where it's woe is me and you're angry at the world, you're afraid as hell, and the problems are real.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  But you also now are compromised. And so the simple things that change everything feel impossible. I never thought I'd be the kind of person that couldn't actually get out of bed. I never thought I would be that far in debt. I never thought I'd be screaming at my husband, Chris, all the time. I never thought I'd isolate that much.

• 47:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  And so it just became this own negative loop. And that's the beginning of the massive change that you see now 16 years later. It was the worst moment of my life. And when you come that close to blowing up your whole life, if you manage to pull yourself out of it and climb out of that hole, you don't fucking forget what that feels like. Yeah. You don't.

• 48:15Dax Shepard?

  What was the first crack? Like, what was the thread you pulled that you then build upon?

• 48:19Speaker 02

  The reason why I am the person I am today is because I learned how to get out of bed on the mornings I didn't feel like it. Getting out of bed when you don't feel like it is a skill. Because the skill that we're talking about is learning how to ignore your feelings and do what needs to be done. Mm-hmm.

• 48:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, break down from when you have the thought, and what gets in the way between the thought and the action? And then I'll set us up for 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  I didn't know any of the science then, but I was drunk watching television and I was having a talk with myself. It was a Monday night in February 2008. And Chris was nowhere to be seen because he was a smart guy. You don't want to be near the bitch who's got a couple bourbons in. Because there's something about Midwest and bourbon that also brings out like the...

• 49:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I was a Jack and Diet person myself. I just love the term drunk and watching TV because I spent thousands of hours drunk watching TV.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  And I'm having a pep talk with myself. And I'm like, that's it. Tomorrow, it's the new you. Tomorrow, Mel, you have got to call your parents. You have to open the bills.

• 49:17Dax Shepard?

  You haven't looked at your bills in like six months or something.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  No, I just left them on the counter. Dude, I unplugged the phone.

• 49:22Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Because it was collector's calling. You know, tomorrow, you have to look for a job. Tomorrow, you have to be nice to Chris. Tomorrow, you gotta get those kids on the bus. Tomorrow, you gotta stop drinking. Tomorrow, when that alarm rings, you can't fucking lay there. You have to get out of bed. And it was an intervention from God or the universe. This rocket ship went across the television screen at the end of a commercial. It gave me the stupidest idea. And the idea was, that's it. Tomorrow, when the alarm rings, you are gonna launch yourself out of bed like a rocket. You're gonna move so fast, you won't be in that bed. You don't have time to think about it. Correct. Yeah. Now, it was the bourbon, probably. Or it was God. But, you know, it's just one of these moments, you guys, that could have so easily come and gone.

• 50:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. And they're all around you. I really believe you're one decision away from a different life.

• 50:13Dax Shepard?

  I also think in those moments, you have to right-size your goals, in a sense. I'm sure for months, you were like, I gotta get 800 grand. I gotta get so far down the road. And then just adjusting, like, no, no, tomorrow, we're gonna wake up and we're gonna pull out the classifieds. That's all. We're not getting 800 grand tomorrow.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  We're just gonna wake up. We're just gonna get out of bed.

• 50:32Dax Shepard?

  Starting to right-size your goals, I think, is also helpful.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  But here's one of the things that I think a lot about. And I think you do a phenomenal job in your conversations. And that's, you can know what to do. And it just, it really, like, I can put myself right back to what it felt like, how scary it was.

• 50:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, powerless.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  And the other thing is, is this is not the world's most amazing story. People go bankrupt every day. People struggle with addiction every day. People lose their housing all the time. It was still so paralyzing. And to also feel like you're letting your kids down?

• 51:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Like, when you pull your kids out of town soccer, because you can't pay for it? When you walk them out of a grocery store, because your check card just bounced again?

• 51:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  And you have to leave the groceries there? There is a level of, I am really failing, that you don't forget. And I knew what I needed to do. And this is the trap that everybody's in. I knew I needed a job. I knew Chris was trying as hard as he was and it wasn't helping. I knew the kids needed me to show up. I knew the drinking wasn't helping. I knew isolating wasn't helping, but I could not make myself do it. And I think in those moments where you're deeply stuck, it's not the knowing and not knowing that's the problem. It's that you have no hope. You are so discouraged and you convince yourself that it doesn't matter.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  That it doesn't matter if I get out of bed because these problems are so big. You surrender because you're discouraged. And so I've come to believe, not only based on my own personal experience, but also based on all of the work that I do professionally, that the single biggest thing that stands in anybody's way isn't knowledge and isn't action, it's a lack of hope. It's this sense that it's not gonna work. It worked for Dax or it worked for Monica or it worked for Melba. It's not gonna work for me. That crushing sense that why would I get out of bed? What's the point? What's the point?

• 52:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  That that's what you're actually battling. And for some reason, that Tuesday morning, when the alarm rang, it's sort of like this amazing symbol for any moment in your life where there's this little piece inside you that's like, speak up, break up, get out of bed, start the podcast, quit the job. That little inspiration is there. And so the alarm rings. That's the alarm from your soul. That's the alarm from your DNA. Like, I choose to believe that people want to thrive. They're wired to thrive. That that is in there as much as we bury it with discouragement and a lack of hope. I immediately remembered that dumb rocket launch thing. Whether it was a hangover or it was cold and dark. It's February outside of Boston. I made a fatal mistake.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  And it's the mistake everybody makes. I hesitated and started to think about whether or not I felt like getting out of bed. Yeah. That's the mistake. There's this five-second window that defines your whole life. It's this moment where you pause and hesitate. And in this five-second window, where you move from this moment of inspiration and knowing. And motivation, or confidence, or whatever you want to call it. And you hesitate, and you start to consider, well, how do I feel about doing it? You move from this bias towards action to a bias towards thinking. And inside this hesitation comes all of the anxiety, all the self doubt,

• 54:06Speaker 02

  all of the patterns, and all of the reasons. There's always an excuse not to do something. And that morning, you guys, I felt my hand reaching for the snooze button. Because the thoughts were like, why am I getting out of bed? It's dark. I don't feel like it. Also, I don't have to. I don't want to. And I just started counting backwards, five, four, three, two, one, and I stood up. And that was the moment that changed my life. And it didn't change my life overnight. What happened is over time, counting five, four, three, two, one, like 73 times a day, five, four, three, two, one, put down the bourbon. Five, four, three, two, one, pick up the phone and call somebody and tell them I need a job. Five, four, three, two, one, get out of bed. Five, four, three, two, one, take a deep breath and don't yell at Chris. I started course correcting, and I started interrupting the feelings.

• 54:49Dax Shepard?

  You're doing CBT, you don't even know.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 54:51Dax Shepard?

  So that's OA, and your TED Talk is what year?

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Three years later.

• 54:55Dax Shepard?

  How do we get to the TED Talk?

• 54:57Speaker 02

  For three years, I am in blocking and tackling mode in my life. It's one five-second decision at a time. Course correcting. I get two or three jobs right out of the gate, just picking up money. My husband's stepping out of the restaurant business and is a shell of himself, shattered because he feels like he's lost everybody's money, and he's failed as a dad, and as a husband, and struggling with alcoholism. So I'm like, alright, it's on me.

• 55:20Dax Shepard?

  I just want to take a second. There's a lot going on, man.

• 55:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's overwhelming.

• 55:24Dax Shepard?

  God bless you guys, yeah. Everyone's dealing with some fucking shit.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Thank God Chris is like the kindest, most amazing human on the... I mean, the man is now a death doula. And he leads men's retreats, and he's a holotropic breathwork instructor, and a Buddhist. It's really annoying for a control freak like me.

• 55:43Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  A college roommate calls and says, hey, somebody's putting on some event in San Francisco. They want a speaker that can talk about career change, and you've changed your career a lot, so I thought about you. That's not a compliment, by the way.

• 55:54Dax Shepard?

  Right, right. You could say you're someone that can't stick with anything. I thought of you.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  Now meanwhile, nobody really knows. Knows anything about how much we've been struggling. I've never told anybody, except for Chris, about this 5-4-3-2-1 thing. Because I kind of feel like maybe God gave me a secret trick, and it's magic.

• 56:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Well, here comes the superstition.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, "I'm enchanted," you know, like, "You can do this thing," and then people... "Only I'm controlling myself." And they said, "They don't pay, but they're offering two tickets to San Francisco and two nights at the St. Regis Hotel."

• 56:24Dax Shepard?

  Sounds great.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Now, by the way, guys, we're still $800,000 in debt. We still have liens on the house. So it is in that moment that I say yes, not thinking about the fact that I have to give a speech, because I've never given a speech on a stage before. Because it sounds like a free vacation.

• 56:38Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  My parents come and visit, we get out there, and it's only when we step on the stage that I'm like, "Oh, my God, there's people here."

• 56:45Dax Shepard?

  Right, right.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  If you watch that TEDx talk, look closely at a minute, and I have that neck rash that people get when they...

• 56:51Dax Shepard?

  The high B kind of panic, huh?

• 56:53Speaker 02

  And this thing was not about the five-second rule. I just made up a bunch of stuff about how to achieve your goals. I forgot how to end it. And I have this moment where I look out at the audience, minute 19, and there's this distinct pause. And I have that, like, "I just pooped my pants" expression.

• 57:12Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  And I say, "Oh, there's this thing I do." I call it the five-second rule.

• 57:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, like, out of a panic.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  The moment you have an instinct act, you gotta move within five seconds, or your brain will kill it.

• 57:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Thank you very much. If you have questions, here's my email address, and I left the stage.

• 57:24Dax Shepard?

  It was later edited out, luckily.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  I had to write to them.

• 57:27Dax Shepard?

  Yes. It's not advisable to give your email out on a TED Talk. Oh, I thought you meant...

• 57:31Speaker 02

  This was also one of the first-ever TEDx conferences, ever, and you want to know full-circle moment? I'm going to San Francisco on Monday to speak at Salesforce's Dreamforce Conference, and I just realized I will be back in that auditorium for the first time.

• 57:46Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no kidding.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  Since giving that speech in 2011.

• 57:49Dax Shepard?

  You might blurt out another nugget.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:51Dax Shepard?

  Let's hope you panic. You do well when you panic.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Very much so. So a year goes by, and nothing happens. And then they put that talk online. So now it's 2012. Now another year goes by. And it starts to go viral on Facebook. So now we're talking 2013, you guys. I am busy working a full-time job. Chris is working on his sobriety. He is working on starting his next chapter. He is getting certified in these things. He's doing his own healing. Our family is finally starting to feel, okay, we're paying our bills. We are starting to get the liens off the house. Like, this is not glamorous.

• 58:33Dax Shepard?

  It's just functional.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  It's functional. And keep in mind, this is five years. No, six years since discovering this 54321 trick. I'm just a normal person in my life. And people start to call and ask me if I will come do that talk. And I'm like, what talk? I don't even know it's online.

• 58:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay, right.

• 58:53Speaker 02

  And they're like, wait, you were in San Francisco? And they're like, no, no, I saw it on Facebook. Facebook? It's on Facebook? And then people start to write to me from all over the world. Mel, I've lost 100 pounds using 54321. Mel, 54321 is the single most effective thing in sobriety circles, in addiction.

• 59:11Dax Shepard?

  Great, because I was going to ask this at the very end, but it's interesting that it already was happening. How are you, with your self-esteem and your own issues, able to receive that kind of information?

• 59:21Speaker 02

  I have always felt, without this sounding like I am some super stuck-up, full-of-erself, I feel the weight of responsibility for being the messenger of something that is really not truly about me, but in service of something else. I've had more than 1,000 people write to us. The first time it happened was in 2016, to say that they had stopped themselves from committing suicide by remembering 54321.

• 59:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  And reaching out for help. Amazing. And we've heard from so many medical professionals who have reached out in clinical settings about how this is so effective. With kids for OCD, it's so effective in treating addiction. It's so effective for treatment-resistant depression because so much of what you have to do. And my husband, Chris, is somebody who has struggled with treatment-resistant depression. And I think one of the reasons why he's alive is he does meaningful work, and he meditates every day, and he exercises every day, and he's of service. And he has figured out how to build a habit of not allowing that heaviness to lie to him.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  You know, with CBT therapy and DBT therapy and all of it, it is really about the action going first and the action creating the new neuropathways and the new habits and the new belief systems. Because the action, if you're getting out of bed, or you're exercising, or you're engaged in the community, or you're paying your bills on time, the action proves that you're not the person that you used to be.

• 1:01:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's the counterfactual to your dumb narrative.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Correct. And so I just happen to be the person that got the message that this little 5-4-3-2-1 countdown technique helps you override that bias of really thinking you need to feel a certain way before you do the things that you do.

• 1:01:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  I'm sure you also don't feel fraudulent because you did it. You experienced it, and you were like, this works. I mean, you did make it up, but you had proof of it.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  But what I didn't know, Monica, is I didn't know why it worked. And so as people started to write to me, what I didn't feel equipped to do was to explain why. And at this point, I had an incredible job as a legal and social commentator on CNN, and I had access to all these incredible experts around the world. And so when you email somebody, "Hey, I'm Mel Robbins, work for CNN," they're like, "Oh, yeah, I'll talk to you about habits." And so I then took on this project, not because I thought I'd write a book, but because I didn't know how to answer people's emails.

• 1:01:59Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  Because I was working full-time. I'd come home at night, I'd put our three kids to bed, and then I would open up the inbox or the messages on Facebook, and there were all of these messages from people around the world saying, "I saw that thing, and, you know, I have a question." I'm like, "I don't know how to answer that. Let me go talk to an expert." And so I started just to be able to talk to people and provide more resources to investigate why does this thing work.

• 1:02:23Dax Shepard?

  It sounds like you rose to the occasion that was given to you. I had a therapist who said, people change in life for two different reasons. One is you want something and you are willing to change to get the thing you want. What also can happen to people is you can be given something and you have to change to keep it, or you will lose it. This weirdly just feels like it sits in that camp. All of a sudden, unbeknownst to you, without any game plan to be in this position, you find yourself in a position where people are asking you a lot of questions around lying on you. And you're like, okay, I gotta have the goods to warrant this.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I also have a responsibility, if I've put something out in the world that people are using, to be able to explain to people why it works. The thing for me is, I didn't know that there was a business around this, because I'm still trying to pay my bills. What I love about what you said is that you have to kind of rise to the occasion to keep the things that you want. What I wanted to keep was my sanity, my house, my family, my marriage. The most fundamental.

• 1:03:23Dax Shepard?

  But also, I'll add in though, we have the illusion that the degree from Dartmouth and the law degree and the income will give us self-esteem. And then if we're lucky enough, we discovered that esteemable acts give us self-esteem. So, all this interaction with people who need help and service actually are creating real self-esteem for you. So like, sure, you don't have the other shit, but I would argue you're getting the thing that is hardest to get and the most valuable. So, I think you're also experiencing something probably pretty revelatory in your life at that moment.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  I think the other thing though, is I was starting to see myself change and become somebody that I was starting to like, and that I was starting to respect. Not necessarily because of my interactions with other people, but because of my ability to be calmer at home. My ability to work through the anger. My ability to start to connect the dots on things in the past that were really still impacting me now in ways that I wasn't proud of.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  And so the more I started to become proud of the kind of person that I was in terms of just the little things, getting up on time, getting the kids to school, taking better care of my body, curbing the drinking, being kinder in my marriage, doing work on myself, looking in the mirror instead of constantly pointing the finger out at the world or other people, lassoing my jealousy. Like, I used to be such a freak of jealousy. If I saw somebody else winning, I felt like it meant I was losing.

• 1:05:06Dax Shepard?

  I think it's a very Michigan thing. When I go home, yes, when I go home, and I love Michigan, but when I go home, I'm like, oh, culturally, there's a thing where it's like almost every story someone tells, like, this person who thought they had so much status tried to fuck with me, and I said, fuck you, and I walked out. Like, almost every story ends with, and I told them to suck my dick. And you're like, wow, okay. Pervasive less-than-feeling.

• 1:05:27Speaker 01

  I think it's true.

• 1:05:28Dax Shepard?

  It's everywhere. I think it's human. You should spend a little time. I think it's. What about in this city? This city has a lot of it.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  You know what's interesting about that? Although, we did not have the swing state thing, because I remember growing up in Michigan. It's why the politics being so divisive today is so confusing, because when you grow up in a state like Michigan, everybody seemed to kind of believe in the same things. Like, it was so middle-of-the-road, right?

• 1:05:52Dax Shepard?

  No one was extreme at all.

• 1:05:53Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, no. It's so confusing to see the way things are now, and I personally think it's a giant illusion. But I think a lot of that's gotten worse, because come September, October, November, anybody that lives in Michigan is just the entire phone and television, and it's all political ads from the coast.

• 1:06:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  And so people also have that entrenched sense of, stop talking down to me, stop telling me what to think.

• 1:06:20Dax Shepard?

  And I could just make a historical argument, which is, this isn't Silicon Valley. It's not like the brain trust moved there for employment. This is the people from the South in Kentucky moved up for labor jobs. And then we had unions. So it's like the union against the man. There's a lot of built-in cultural pride, real stuff that has driven this proletariat pride and fuck the brass. It's a town of industry.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  I had a lot of that in me, I think.

• 1:06:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, me too. I think a little dose is good.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, fuck you. Like, I literally would love my best friend, but by God, if she were renovating her kitchen.

• 1:06:54Dax Shepard?

  Fuck that bitch.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  And then she put in the marble. She's like, Pinterest board. And you're like, holding it together. And then, you know, I don't know if you've ever had that tour where somebody takes you on the tour of their house and they give you the wine. And you're like shaking it like this. And you got that look on your face. This looks like a restoration hardware store. And then if you're like me, you hold it together, but then you're so immature that you get in the car and you turn to your poor spouse and you're like, "Why couldn't you be in finance? What's wrong with you? Why do you care about people?" But you don't have that anymore. You do. Oh, I don't anymore. Because I now understand the fundamental rules about life. Exactly.

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  That nobody can actually take something from you like that. The person standing in your way is you. Other people aren't blocking your way. They're actually showing you the way of what's possible. And yeah, life's unfair and yes, people have unfair advantages. But you will never, ever, ever, ever be able to convince me that a person with their attitude and their action cannot change their fortune, their circumstances, their mindset, their health, their kitchen, their profession.

• 1:08:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Mine would rear itself in, I would be evaluating what actors, while I was in my nine years of trying to get an acting job, it was like, well, that person sucks. They don't deserve it.

• 1:08:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:12Dax Shepard?

  Under all that, now I realize, I don't think I'm good enough to do it. I mean, that's the reality. It's like, I'm afraid I'm not good enough to get work. That's my big fear.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  I didn't start a podcast because I saw everybody else. I was like, oh, Dax and Monica are already doing it. What am I gonna say? Fucking Jay Shetty, monk. What am I gonna say? I literally talked myself out of it for three years because I was just in that zone that it's already taken. Somebody beat me to it. I'm too late. The world is scarce. There's not enough. This is very important to talk about in unpack because I do believe this sense that somebody's beaten you to it, or because somebody else is doing it in their way, you now can't do it in your way. That this is one of the single biggest things that we do to ourselves, and it is complete fiction.

• 1:09:03Dax Shepard?

  Whatever thing you think can't be done, someone's gonna do it next week.

• 1:09:06Speaker 02

  And here's what's worse. If you actually have a dream, it cannot be buried and it will haunt you for the rest of your life because it's meant for you. And so there is no amount of talking yourself out of that marathon you want to run, or going back to nursing school, or writing music, or starting a podcast, or writing the cookbook that you've always wanted to do. That dream is going to haunt you until the day that you die. And it is there because it is there to wake up something inside you. And your job is not to question it. It is to move toward it. And for too long, I turned other people into the problem. And I used other people as the reason why I couldn't do the things that I wanted to do.

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  Either they were going to judge me, or they were going to do this, or they've already done it, or there's not enough room, or they're going to think I copied them. And other people don't need to be a problem in your life.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

• 1:10:10Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff. But there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends. Docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly, is different. It's already right there. Inside your email, your docs, your browser. You don't go to it. It's already working alongside you. You're deep in a long thread. Highlight it, and it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands.

• 1:10:55Dax Shepard?

  It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. A thought partner that's already up to speed. At your service, not after your job. So do yourself a favor and try Superhuman Go. From the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  But also, I feel like so much of it is the goal of the dream.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  Tell me more.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  If the dream is to do a podcast, you can do that. If the dream is to have the most successful podcast, that's when you're like, oh, well, I have nothing to say. And oh, it's already too full. And oh, there's no space for me. But if it's just for the process of doing it, that's why this show works. Because when we started, we did not think of it as a-

• 1:11:48Dax Shepard?

  A business. This was never gonna be a business.

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  It was a side project.

• 1:11:51Dax Shepard?

  This was just fun.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  That's honestly how you should start a podcast, because most podcasts make no money.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  Most are not a business.

• 1:11:56Dax Shepard?

  And we didn't think we were gonna, and we didn't care. That wasn't the thing.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  That wasn't the goal, and that's how it happened. If the goal is success for anything, or like the most successful, that's too much. No one's gonna pursue something like that. You can't. You just have to decide, what do I want to just spend my days doing? Nothing's gonna get in the way of that.

• 1:12:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. In AA, we say we're in the show up and work business, not in the results business. It's like in keeping with that. Do the thing you have control over, which is make the podcast.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Or go back to school, or write the book, or do the thing. Hike the Appalachian Trail. Even thinking about it the way that you did, Monica, that the point of doing the thing is not the thing. It's that in doing it, there is something that comes alive in you. There is something about you that becomes interesting and interested again. It is a way to tap into a sense of vitality that I think is core to the human experience. Like, we are designed to grow and to change our whole lives. Our whole bodies are designed that way. And so when somebody says to me, I feel stuck, I'm like, great, that's a sign of something. Just like when you're thirsty, it's a sign that you need water. When you're hungry, it's a sign that you need food. When you're lonely, it's a sign you need connection.

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  When you're stuck, it is a signal from the DNA in your body that you are missing a fundamental element of the human experience, which is growth. And the way that you solve the experience that's very normal of being stuck is not to try to figure out your purpose. It's to literally just take on a project that helps you learn something.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  And to grow a little bit.

• 1:13:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  And then in that, you bump into the next thing.

• 1:13:32Dax Shepard?

  You write the five second book in 2015?

• 1:13:35Speaker 02

  Seventeen.

• 1:13:35Dax Shepard?

  Seventeen. It becomes a big bestseller. And then you ultimately stumble upon the let them theory. Now, I was exposed to this by, my wife and I both listen to books on tape out loud to go to sleep. And kind of just whoever starts at first, we're going to stuck with that one. So she was, of course, first in on this book. And she was listening to it next to me. And so I was hearing it a lot. And of course, my first thought was, and you're the first to acknowledge all this. This theory works and overlaps perfectly with Buddhism, with Stoicism. There's a ton of AA in it, the Serenity Prayer.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, let's hear the theory for people who haven't heard it. Oh, great.

• 1:14:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  So the fastest way to feel less stress, gain control, and have more peace in your life is to stop trying to control and change other people. And let them be who they are, let them say what they're going to say, let them do what they're going to do. And take all that power back and focus on what you're going to say do in response. I mean, this is Viktor Frankl's work, Man's Search for Meaning. It's Stoicism. Very Al-Anon. Yes, we've turned it into a modern tool. Because the thing for me is, especially being married to a Buddhist, if you're somebody that tends to grip the wheel of life, somebody telling you to let go doesn't work. Because when somebody tells me to let it go, I'm like, but I don't want to lose. I'm holding on because I'm pissed off about this. What do you mean I have to let it go? I don't want to surrender.

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  And so what I love about let them and then let me, because it's four words. At first, you say let them. And that's a boundary that you set between you and other people and you and the outside world. Any psychologist will tell you that the single biggest form of stress in your life is other people, because they're super annoying.

• 1:15:18Dax Shepard?

  Unpredictable, uncountable.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  Opinions, they don't meet our expectations, they're offensive, they're this.

• 1:15:23Dax Shepard?

  Unreliable.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  Unreliable, all of it. But the more you focus time and energy on things you can't control, the More out of control you feel. It just backfires. And so for years, I've known this, but I've never been able to apply it.

• 1:15:37Dax Shepard?

  Talk about your son's prom. I think that's what sets off this journey.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  It does, but I have been on this journey for years.

• 1:15:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  I have been trying to be less controlling. I have written articles about not caring about what people think. And then somebody that I'm close to says something that upsets me. And then all I do is care about what they think.

• 1:15:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  So I'll get upset about traffic, or I'll be mad about something else. And then, I can't remember what Seneca said and how to be stoic. Because I'm already stressed out. I'm back in the amygdala.

• 1:16:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you can't even access.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  And so, knowing what to do just makes you smart. The real superpower in life is how do you apply it in a moment where you're actually in amygdala land? So what happened for me is, we've all said the words "let them" probably 10,000 times in our life. But this was a moment where I was your typical mom. We've all been at a high school dance with a mother. And I was that mother, because I'm trying to get the Christmas photo. And I want the tie just right.

• 1:16:30Dax Shepard?

  She's gotta have a corsage.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I buy the corsage, even though the date doesn't want one. Then we get to the photo thing. Yeah, the date then has her own corsage. And then we have a corsage. Like, I don't even know her. And then it's raining, and then the kids want to go outside. And then I'm like, but we haven't taken the family photo. Right. And our daughter, who lives out here in LA, and happened to have very long almond-shaped nails at the time, reaches over and grabs my bicep, piercing, basically, the skin through the shirt, and starts squeezing. And so there was something about the pressure here.

• 1:17:00Dax Shepard?

  Snapped you out of your...

• 1:17:01Speaker 02

  Oh, and her grit teeth, like, "Mom, you're being annoying." Right. "Let them." And she started saying, "Let them, let them, let them," like it was a chorus in a song. Ah. And I just felt my shoulders drop. And even though I've even talked about this concept, why do I care about this? Let them. What a novel way. But here's the interesting thing. So I started talking about it. We did a podcast episode about it. It explodes.

• 1:17:27Speaker 02

  And I'm like, oh my God, I've got to write a book.

• 1:17:29Dax Shepard?

  It's another five, four, three, two, one moment.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  And I'm also feeling like I've seen this once in my life. And it's not like I'm like, I've got an unbelievable bestseller. It's like, this is something that needs to be put in the world at a moment where the world is spinning off its axis. And there is this unprecedented feeling of overwhelm and fear and darkness, and I can't control what's happening. My kids are full of anxiety. AI is coming, the headlines are terrifying. And so people are then shrinking and we're gaslighting ourselves and saying, because this feels out of control, I have no control, which is not true. You have so much control and so much power if you recognize that you do and you act accordingly.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  And so I wrote the first manuscript. It was horrible. Because the whole thing was like, let them, let them, let them, let them.

• 1:18:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, how many times can you say?

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  Oh my God. And there was a lot of research in it, but I knew something was missing. And my daughter, who had been working for a big cybersecurity firm, and so she's like a Excel spreadsheet on legs. Her brain is like that. She was home. The one thing in life that she knew that she never wanted to do was work with me. And she had just quit her job and had gone backpacking through Asia for five months alone, which is her dream, mother's worst nightmare. Yep. But she came back broke, moved in with mom and dad.

• 1:18:52Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh, what a blessing.

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  Yes. Because it turns out I have a dream too. And my dream was to always have a family business. You know how good those are? And so I said to her, listen, you need money, I need research help. You don't even have to talk to me. You can talk to this person in our company. How about you take four weeks and I want you to really analyze, not what people love about this. Because now all of a sudden, this has exploded already. Therapists are writing articles, we're inundated with questions about it. People are taking it on. I love it. You don't have to read the book, you don't have to buy the book. You will be able to use this just listening to this. And that's what I love the most. You can explain it to your kids, you can explain it to anybody. It's all of ours because it is a modern version of the truth about life. It belongs to no one and everybody.

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  And so she came back in 36 hours with a 28-page, color-coded Excel spreadsheet with dropdown tabs.

• 1:19:45Dax Shepard?

  Does she do methamphetamine?

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  I literally said to her, Derek, I said, how much Adderall did you take? And she said, you can't write the book. And I said, "Why?" She said, "Because people are saying they love it because you feel superior." You know, when you start saying, "Let them," and you realize your siblings never call you back, you're the one that makes all the plans, "Let my siblings." Of course, the "let them" part, you rise above, you feel the superiority, that's helping you detach from emotion. But then you're sitting with the reality. And the reality for a lot of us is, I'm in a job where I don't feel appreciated. I am in a family where I make a lot of effort and I don't feel it's returned. I have friends that I don't feel reach out.

• 1:20:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you saw friends on a vacation on Instagram.

• 1:20:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:20:32Dax Shepard?

  And you got resentful. First step was like, "Yeah, let them be on the trip."

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  And then the second part, I have to give credit to my co-author Sawyer. She said, "There has to be a second part because people are lonely. And there is no way, Mom, you can put something out in the world that makes people superior and lonely."

• 1:20:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:48Speaker 02

  There has to be a second part. And I'm like, "Well, what the hell's the second part?" She said, "Well, it's 'let me.'" It's where you then have to prompt yourself that power in relationships and all change comes from you. It's not about managing and changing other people. If you don't like what you see in the world or in your relationships, stop trying to change everybody else.

• 1:21:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, there's two variables. You only have control over one of the variables, you.

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  Yes, and it's you.

• 1:21:11Dax Shepard?

  So I like how you say, though, it's like, "If I want to be on that trip, I need to get my business life under control so that I think I have the freedom. I need to reach out more. I need to get myself there if that's what I want."

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  Because what happens when you say the "let me" part is you are forced to question, "What are my values?" So let's take the example of family, because my favorite thing about the "let them" theory is it doesn't actually cut off relationships. It forces you to operate with acceptance, which creates a space for actual connection. We've been so busy trying to change and control one another, especially in families and marriages and friendships, that we're not actually loving each other. And what I have learned in using "let them" and "let me" is that I deeply value family. I deeply value my 29-year marriage with Chris. I deeply value my connection with my kids and my friends. If I value it, then it's on me.

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  And I had to come to terms with the fact that I was a very tit-for-tat person. Like, we all have friends that keep score. I did this. I've invited you three times. You're not inviting me. I keep calling my brother. He never calls me. Well, let him. And now let me ask myself, does family matter to me?

• 1:22:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what are my values regardless of what theirs are? It doesn't matter.

• 1:22:29Speaker 02

  And then that way, you're reaching out not out of obligation. You're reaching out not in order to keep score. You're reaching out not because you think you should. You're reaching out because you want to. Because it makes you feel like a good sister. It makes you feel like a good mother. Who do you want to be in this life? And the same thing's true about the world around us. Like, the stuff that's going on in the headlines, it's already happening. And so "let them" isn't just allow it. "Let them" is radical acceptance because it forces you to recognize the truth of what's happening. And then you say, "Let me ask myself, what do I value? And where do I want to put my time and energy in terms of trying to change things for the better?"

• 1:23:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it marries so concisely two of my favorite tenants of AA. One is acceptance is the answer to all of our problems, right? And that, fuck, it's painfully true. I think people's hurdle and barrier with "let them" is they associate it with surrender. If I say, "Let them be rude," or "let them," you know, whatever thing you've decided, that somehow that's a surrender. But I would argue, you need to walk that further down the path. So if you don't do that, and you continue to resent and have poison in your belly about this person, that's victory? You actually have to question, what is victory? If surrender's defeat, what is victory? You being agitated all the time and consumed with what everyone else should be doing?

• 1:23:55Dax Shepard?

  That can't be victory. So let's just start by like, we gotta define what victory is. Victory for me is peace and serenity. So it's not a surrender to me to get to peace and serenity.

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  It's actually the opposite. I want to unpack real quick because I think this is one of the most important things and ways you can use it. And that is, how do you use this with people that are very challenging? Or very disrespectful? Because the fact is, it's easy on Instagram to write about cutting people off. But most of us have somebody in our families. That are very challenging.

• 1:24:24Dax Shepard?

  Probably multiple people.

• 1:24:26Speaker 02

  Yes, and we don't want to cut them off. We just wish that we could get along. We wish there wasn't so much tension. And one of the most beautiful things about the let them theory is that it forces you, perhaps for the first time, to see people as they are and as they're not. If you have somebody in your family who has a narcissistic personality style, they've been like this forever. You don't need to brace going into family interactions because you're gonna let them.

• 1:24:54Dax Shepard?

  You already know it.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  You already know it. And part of the tension comes from you wishing it were different and hoping it's gonna be different.

• 1:25:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, a different expectation.

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  Yes, so when you align yourself with reality and not fantasy, you now have literally leveraged all the research every psychologist talks about, which is just not feeding it. Let them, I know what I'm walking into. Now let me make sure that I've checked my energy. Let me decide what conversations I engage in, how much time I give or not.

• 1:25:24Dax Shepard?

  How long do I want to be around it?

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  How long do I want to be around it? Let me also just remind myself, why am I going? I'm going because family does matter and I'm going because it's important that I go to this, even though that person's gonna be there, because it just creates more whatever and I'm more powerful than that person anyway. And so that's one really important thing. And the other thing that's really important that people really, when you recognize it, you're like, oh my God, is that it doesn't mean you're allowing disrespectful behavior. When you say let them and somebody is being verbally abusive at work, you're not allowing it. You're recognizing that this is what this is. And you're also recognizing you don't change disrespect by trying to change the person who's doing it to you. You change disrespect by respecting yourself enough

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  to get out of that job or to have different boundaries in that relationship. So many of the relationship problems, particularly in dating, are because you literally excuse away behavior and live in a fantasy about who this person is instead of accepting the reality that the way that people treat you is how they feel about you. Yes. And they're not gonna change because people only change when they're ready to change for themselves. You're the one who has to change if the relationship is gonna change. So I love this because it forces you. To recognize what's in your control and recognize the reality of the situation you're in, and also recognize that the power to change it is not with them, it's with you.

• 1:26:50Dax Shepard?

  Right. If you continue to stay the course with how you respond, you're gonna get the same outcome ad infinitum.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 1:26:57Dax Shepard?

  That's just how it is. There's two of you. You interact in this manner, and they're not gonna change. So unless you want the same outcome for eternity, you only have one option.

• 1:27:07Speaker 02

  And the fact is, somebody who's bad for your mental health is not your soulmate. And there's a lot of explaining away that we do of really crappy behavior. Instead of forcing ourselves to see somebody as they are and as they're not, and then ask ourselves, is this enough for me?

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  This is also in keeping with limitations. I think something that's helped me a ton is understanding people's limitations and thinking of them as that. It's not that they don't want it, they can't. If you start thinking about people's character defects as they actually can't change them, it is very liberating because there's nothing you can do to get them there. It's an impossibility.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  And it's also not personal.

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  This is who this person is.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  And they react like this with everybody. So I get to choose how much time personally I spend on this.

• 1:27:56Dax Shepard?

  I had a moment of this in my twenties. I had to do this with a dude I loved. This really good friend fucked this girl that I had been tragically in love. We had this terrible breakup. It was just the messy, unresolved, most chaotic breakup I ever had. And then I find out one of my best friends is fucking her and is in love with her, and I'm like really upset about it. And I'm not gonna be friends with him anymore. And I just had this moment in my twenties where I was like, I think it can help you just actually accurately evaluate the whole thing, which is like, okay, this is who he is. He's gonna fuck my ex-girlfriends. Do I enjoy hanging with him enough that it offsets that? If I accept that that's it forever, would I still choose to be friends with him and just have no expectations of him in that regard?

• 1:28:39Dax Shepard?

  And I was like, yeah, I like hanging out with him enough. And I don't really, because I've decided I don't feel like powerless or a victim. And it's just like, I evaluated it. Yeah, he's flawed in this way. It'll probably be more in the future. But does it offset how much I like being around him? Yeah. So I just need to be around him with appropriate expectations. This dude's probably gonna do this again.

• 1:28:58Speaker 02

  What I love about this is that it's the perfect example that illustrates that people do whatever they're doing. They fuck whoever they fuck, they think whatever they think, they believe whatever they believe, blah de blah blah blah. They're just doing their life. We're the ones that torture ourselves with all the weight of the expectation and the burden and all this stuff over here. And that example illustrates that you basically got on that teeter totter and you said, what do I want to give way to? And you recognize, I do actually have power here. I don't have to hate this guy because society tells me I have to. I could actually just say, okay, this is who this guy is. Do I still want in?

• 1:29:35Dax Shepard?

  And I do.

• 1:29:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's on me. And you also could have said, and I don't.

• 1:29:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  Like, both are options.

• 1:29:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, if his personality was a little less good, I would have said, I don't.

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  You know, this is the more thing.

• 1:29:46Dax Shepard?

  But you know, fuck him, he had the leverage. He is so fun to be around. I need to have the right expectations.

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  But that's an empowered choice. Yes, exactly. And what's also interesting is people in your life probably questioned you because they couldn't understand. You're like, let them, let them question you. They don't have to understand your decisions because your decisions are not for somebody else.

• 1:30:03Dax Shepard?

  That's right. If I can have a relationship with this that no longer causes me this angst, I'm up for it. And again, there are other things that, no, I would have been like, yeah, I'm out. Or they're not even that fun to offset that. But yeah, I think you can be taught this lesson in a really hard way. My example is like my father, when he was dying of cancer, he also had gout. He had so much going on. He had heart disease, he had gout, he had the small cell carcinoma.

• 1:30:25Speaker 02

  Like an old rusty car in Michigan winter. Everything's leaking out on the highway.

• 1:30:30Dax Shepard?

  Frame off restoration. Like, just dump everything. But anyways, he is in bed the last three months with the gout because his feet were so swelled up. He expressed a desire to get out of bed before he dies of this cancer. So there's a specific diet one should be on, right? And I was monitoring that and I left the hospital to go do something. I came back and they were clearing this fucking, he had a big bacon cheeseburger while I was gone. And I was livid, right? I'm like, damn, what the fuck? You want to get out of bed? But you say to fucking bacon cheeseburger the second I leave. We got in this terrible fight, wasted this very finite amount of time I had with him. And after he was dead, I was like, what a waste of my time. My dad was a dude who would eat bacon cheeseburgers when you turned your back. That's why I ended up in this situation. He wasn't gonna at the fucking finish line become a different dude. What was I thinking?

• 1:31:14Dax Shepard?

  I still had the illusion, right? That I could make him this person that would make him healthy.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  You were scared.

• 1:31:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And then my stepdad started dying of cancer and I went into going like, whatever this motherfucker wants to do, as illogical as it is, or counterproductive to his health, we're gonna go, cool.

• 1:31:31Speaker 02

  You know, one of the coolest things about this, at least for me, in terms of now having used it all day long, using it in my marriage with our three adult kids, in using let them and let me, you reverse the wiring of what you actually put weight on. And you start to recognize how much power you have in your own life when you really focus on showing up in a way that makes you feel proud of yourself. You're not always gonna get it right, but if you know your intentions, you clean up your messes, you recognize that other people, most people are not trying to hurt you. Most people are not trying to piss you off.

• 1:32:12Speaker 02

  It's really allowed me to operate with a level of grace and peace and compassion. And one of the other major things is Chris and I have been together for 30 years and through a lot of ups and downs. And I heard somebody once say, second marriages are amazing. And I think they are, especially if it's with the same person. And when you really learn how to show up in a relationship, whether it's with your parents or yourself or your partner or your kids, and you can create this space of acceptance, seeing people exactly as they are, like the story with your dad. My dad's the kind of guy that just hammered a cheeseburger with bacon when you turned around.

• 1:32:48Dax Shepard?

  Second I left the room.

• 1:32:49Speaker 02

  And then you're like, let him. I get to choose whether or not I love this person that way.

• 1:32:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  If he had changed at the very end, that also would have been sad. It's like, why didn't you do this earlier?

• 1:33:01Dax Shepard?

  Literally after he's died, I was like, good for him. I'm glad he ate that fucking cheeseburger. He didn't have anything else going on. He should have eaten a thousand cheeseburgers. He wasn't gonna reverse this. Yeah. Well, Mel, you're wonderful. You're so fun and you do Michigan very proud. And I do feel a kinship with you, a sibling kinship. I think it's awesome. I'm such a fan.

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  Well, thank you.

• 1:33:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  I'm a huge fan. Are you guys?

• 1:33:23Dax Shepard?

  Well, I wish you luck with everything and everyone truly, truly, truly should read Let Them. What a success. 6.2 million. It's the best selling.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:33:31Dax Shepard?

  It was the best selling of any genre on Amazon last year. It's the best selling help book of all time. It's fucking awesome. I'm so happy for you.

• 1:33:38Speaker 02

  You know what I'm happy about? I'm just happy people at this moment in time are interested in reading or listening to something that will help them not turn away from life, but actually turn back toward it.

• 1:33:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  That to me is a very hopeful thing. And I'm also thrilled for your success because it means that people that don't have a lot of time are making time to listen to a show that reminds them of their better nature and that also connects them to the resources, tools and experts that help them tap into it. So I'm grateful that you do what you do.

• 1:34:10Dax Shepard?

  Thank you. This has been wonderful.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  This is awesome. Thanks so much for coming. Come back.

• 1:34:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, come back.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  I'd love to. And please come to Boston.

• 1:34:16Dax Shepard?

  Say something crazy at the end so that'll be your next book.

• 1:34:19Speaker 02

  Oh, what the fuck should I say?

• 1:34:20Dax Shepard?

  Always pull your hair three times.

• 1:34:26Dax Shepard?

  Hi there. This is Hermia and Permian. If you like that, you're gonna love the fact that it's Miss Monica.

• 1:34:33Dax Shepard?

  Where'd those shoes come from?

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  I ordered these. Anna and I ordered these. Well, she got black ones.

• 1:34:39Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  But, um, so they arrived at Anna's house, so she brought them today.

• 1:34:44Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  But I was wearing other shoes, but Kristen is gonna wear them to her thing.

• 1:34:49Dax Shepard?

  She's gonna, she's gonna wear the shoes you were just in.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God, a midday shoe swap.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  It just happened.

• 1:34:55Dax Shepard?

  Now, that's an interesting proposition because you're putting on shoes that are warm with someone else's foot warmth.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 1:35:04Dax Shepard?

  Do you think they were damp at all? Did you sweat in them at all?

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  I, I was wearing socks.

• 1:35:08Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. Then that's not gonna be an issue.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  But it still might be.

• 1:35:12Dax Shepard?

  I don't think so.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  She loves my sweat.

• 1:35:14Dax Shepard?

  I doubt you're sweating through your socks and getting the shoe damp, do you think?

• 1:35:18Speaker 01

  I doubt too, because guess what?

• 1:35:20Dax Shepard?

  Well, let's fill your sock. Pop off your shoe.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  No, now this, I took my socks off for these.

• 1:35:25Dax Shepard?

  How come?

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know.

• 1:35:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. Interesting.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  I just decided to because, um, these are smaller.

• 1:35:33Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  So like the other shoes are, which is why they fit her. They're a little bit, tiny bit big on me. So a sock is nice. It fills it out.

• 1:35:43Dax Shepard?

  Surely.

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  She didn't wear a sock.

• 1:35:45Dax Shepard?

  She went raw dog.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:47Dax Shepard?

  I'm the warm damplover.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:49Dax Shepard?

  What a gangster.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  My sweat is gray.

• 1:35:54Dax Shepard?

  But would, how would you feel about putting on a warm damp shoe?

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  If it was hers, I'd be fine.

• 1:35:59Dax Shepard?

  Well, that reminds me that, um, this was so unfortunate, but we were shooting to get Chips greenlit, we made like a self-financed five-minute kind of trailer for it.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Like sizzle?

• 1:36:12Dax Shepard?

  A sizzle reel. So no permits out in the middle of, uh, Angeles Forest. And we only had one set of leathers between us, or the leathers had to match, whatever the case was.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  Leathers, tell people what leathers are.

• 1:36:25Dax Shepard?

  Full leathers that you would ride, ride in at the racetrack.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  It's the suit that motorcyclists wear.

• 1:36:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's like from chin down to your ankles.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:32Dax Shepard?

  And, um, you know, it was hot as Hades and I had been filming a bunch and then De Castro had to get into my leather.

• 1:36:40Speaker 01

  That's tough.

• 1:36:42Dax Shepard?

  I, I mean, that might be the hardest core thing I've ever seen anyone do is get into wet leathers.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't want that. You want red leather, yellow leather.

• 1:36:51Dax Shepard?

  Red leather, yellow leather. Um, but yes, when I go to the track, it's always very, very hot. And in between sessions, when I pull that thing off, it is just like someone sprayed a hose in there. Yeah. So as sweaty as I've ever been is in that suit.

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  I bet. I mean, tight leather. Yeah.

• 1:37:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. What are you gonna do?

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  It's like Ross's pants. Some people will understand that.

• 1:37:10Dax Shepard?

  He had loud pants, right? Do I know this?

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  They, he had these black leather pants.

• 1:37:15Dax Shepard?

  And they were squeaky and loud? Too tight.

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  They were, they got too tight.

• 1:37:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  He, he took them off to go to the bathroom and he couldn't get them back on and he was on a date.

• 1:37:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh, why did he take them all the way off to go to the bathroom?

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  I think he did it to air, it was, it was so tight and he had to air him, air out.

• 1:37:31Dax Shepard?

  Interesting motivation.

• 1:37:32Speaker 01

  Okay. And then he couldn't get them back on and he calls Joey and Joey tells, asks if there's any like, you know, lotion or anything.

• 1:37:40Dax Shepard?

  Lubricant.

• 1:37:41Speaker 01

  Yep. And then he, he tries and no, you know, it won't come on. And then he says, Joey recommends that he make himself a pair of pace pants.

• 1:37:50Dax Shepard?

  Pace pants?

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Well, I'm skipping some stuff.

• 1:37:52Dax Shepard?

  How did it resolve?

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  It didn't. He had to come out holding his pants.

• 1:37:56Dax Shepard?

  In front of his privates.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  And, and, um, the date ended.

• 1:38:01Dax Shepard?

  Did you see any skin in that? Cause in these sitcoms, you almost never see any skin.

• 1:38:05Speaker 01

  I think he's wearing underwear.

• 1:38:07Dax Shepard?

  Was it exciting to see, uh, Schwimmer's legs?

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  Gosh.

• 1:38:10Dax Shepard?

  Schwimmer's ear?

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  You know what's funny is I don't remember that being exciting because the comedy was just so good.

• 1:38:18Dax Shepard?

  It was so front and center that it inoculated you from PQs.

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  He was so good at physical comedy on that show. Didn't get that much, uh, Ross didn't get much credit.

• 1:38:28Dax Shepard?

  I think when I'm like terminal and I, I, uh, announce I'll be in hospice, you know? And I've just got some months to, you know, be on drugs and lay in a bed. I, I might consume the whole thing then. I might be saving it to the very end, which would, that's maybe the best way to view it. Like the last thing you saw before you died.

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. So he's got a, thankfully he's got a very long button up shirt on. So it's covering and masking a lot of his private.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And do you see the paste?

• 1:38:55Dax Shepard?

  I do. And I, I go straight to the legs cause I'm not, the comedy isn't so present. Mind you, listener, Rob has put a picture up of the scene. Um, yeah. So I go straight to the legs, but you do look at that and you go, this is something comedic's happening.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. And it was, it was hilarious.

• 1:39:12Dax Shepard?

  Indeed it was.

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  This was a New Year's episode, resolutions.

• 1:39:17Dax Shepard?

  How much would you pay to be able to watch it all with a clean slate?

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  Oh, great question.

• 1:39:22Dax Shepard?

  Thank you.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Forty-five mil?

• 1:39:25Dax Shepard?

  Forty-five million. Okay.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:28Dax Shepard?

  What if there was a procedure? That's a, that's a good, that's a fun thought experiment. There's a procedure that can pinpoint a memory and erase it. Just so you can reconsume something. But I guess in doing that, you would erase the wonderful.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:39:46Dax Shepard?

  Feelings you had surrounding that.

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  I would never be able to do that because. The reason memories are impactful is because they're, they're perfect storms.

• 1:39:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  They're hitting you at the right time and right moment to be impactful. So if I erased it and then I started it again now, I might be like-

• 1:40:06Dax Shepard?

  Your whole personality collapsed if we remove those.

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. This is a black mirror.

• 1:40:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 1:40:12Speaker 01

  And then what happens, like what happens to the interview we did with Jennifer Aniston and Lisa Kudrow? Like-

• 1:40:18Dax Shepard?

  They don't get erased. They, they still exist on-

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  On their own?

• 1:40:22Dax Shepard?

  In our reality, yeah.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  That's strange, okay.

• 1:40:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And in fact, when you would listen back, you'd be like, I don't even know that girl. I don't even know what that reference is. About yourself. You're like, what's she talking about when she said, um, you ran down-

• 1:40:34Speaker 01

  Why would I say she? Because it's still me.

• 1:40:36Dax Shepard?

  You'd be looking at you.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:37Dax Shepard?

  And you're like, she.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  So I'd go, me.

• 1:40:39Dax Shepard?

  But you had a couple, you dropped a couple of references. One about Ross-

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  Uh huh, uh huh.

• 1:40:44Dax Shepard?

  Running down the street or something.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  And he was mobbed.

• 1:40:47Dax Shepard?

  He was mobbed, mugged, mugged, mugged.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:40:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, by a mob. But not really, just one- By Phoebe.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  Phoebe was a mugger in her youth. She had a tough childhood.

• 1:40:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. That's unexpected from what I, little I know about the archetype of Phoebe. I would erase the jinx and then re-watch it.

• 1:41:03Speaker 01

  Ooh. But again, that was like so fun at a certain time.

• 1:41:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, that's what's interesting. Can you erase just the content and not the feeling of laying on the couch in the old house and watching it? Because I'd like to hold on to that, but it just like, I don't know what we're watching. I just remember it being fun.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  I think it's too tricky. You have to, it's, you, all or nothing. So in that case, I, there's nothing I would want to remove and start over.

• 1:41:30Dax Shepard?

  Sixth Sense?

• 1:41:31Speaker 01

  Maybe Harry Potter.

• 1:41:33Dax Shepard?

  There you go. Now I got you.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  I wish I could re-read. Although, like, again, I'm older now, maybe it wouldn't have the same impact.

• 1:41:43Dax Shepard?

  It wouldn't. You know, um, Larry Trilling is on, I guess what would be this week's episode of Mom's Car.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:41:49Dax Shepard?

  And Larry Trilling is really, um, well, he has impeccable taste. And so he's made lists of movies. He made a hundred, a list of a hundred movies that he thinks people should see.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  Great, I want it.

• 1:42:00Dax Shepard?

  You should, Eric, uh, got it from him and he's been going through it with Lily. And he's like, this is the greatest list. Like, everyone should have this list. So when I was interviewing him, I was like, I wanted to talk about lists and, and, and I wanted to name like five of the best this and that. And he, he said, well, I have a very specific criteria for what I say makes. I'm not saying they're the best cinematic movies. I'm not saying they're historically this, but he had this criteria and it was really interesting. And he has an overarching theory that like you have a sweet spot between 15 and 22 where the movies you see in that period as you're like forming your identity are gonna have a weight and a resonance that no other films will ever have.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, not for me. Mine goes a little bit younger, but still.

• 1:42:45Dax Shepard?

  But yeah, whatever.

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  Maybe for boys.

• 1:42:47Dax Shepard?

  You guys are ahead of us a little bit. And maybe you in particular were. When did you have, when did you get your menstrual cycle?

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  Period.

• 1:42:55Dax Shepard?

  I'm trying to think of a tactful way to ask that.

• 1:42:57Speaker 01

  Uh, my flies, the first arrival of the flies.

• 1:43:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Was, um.

• 1:43:03Dax Shepard?

  Seven?

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  No. Uh, I was in seventh grade.

• 1:43:07Dax Shepard?

  So 12.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  So 12.

• 1:43:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Yeah. So I think that's on the earlier side.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  I do too.

• 1:43:12Dax Shepard?

  And what, what old were, what old were you? What age were you when, um?

• 1:43:17Speaker 01

  Good Will Hunting?

• 1:43:19Dax Shepard?

  Good Will Hunting came out.

• 1:43:20Speaker 01

  Uh, eighth grade. So right on after.

• 1:43:22Dax Shepard?

  You were, yeah, you were, you were burbling.

• 1:43:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. My hormones were, whoo.

• 1:43:26Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  Flux.

• 1:43:28Dax Shepard?

  Uh, so one of his things is like, what cultural relevance did it have? Like, did it, did it kind of take over culture in some way or, um, but just the seminal things what made me think of that. So yes, my, my hunch is, given my conversation with Larry, that even for me, as hard as it is to imagine, that if I saw Raising Arizona for the first time in my 50s.

• 1:43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:53Dax Shepard?

  It's simply not gonna be, again, I was in probably seventh grade when I saw Raising Arizona.

• 1:43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:59Dax Shepard?

  And I was like, what is this world here?

• 1:44:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think if you removed me watching either Friends or Good Will Hunting, if you removed both of those, I disappear. I'm not a person anymore.

• 1:44:13Dax Shepard?

  You gotta, you also gotta consider the devil's advocate. Maybe you would be like the CEO of Snapchat.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  I'm already the CEO of a big company and I feel good about it.

• 1:44:24Dax Shepard?

  I guess there's a version where your life is better without it.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 1:44:28Dax Shepard?

  You don't think it might've set the bar so high with your boyfriends?

• 1:44:34Speaker 01

  No, I don't. I think it taught me what I want. And also, also for me, better, better is an interesting word. I don't think there's a way my life could be better.

• 1:44:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  I mean, there are ways it could be different and equally good.

• 1:44:55Dax Shepard?

  Or easier.

• 1:44:56Speaker 01

  Sure, maybe, yeah. Um, there are, yeah, there are different paths.

• 1:45:01Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:45:02Speaker 01

  That are probably equally good.

• 1:45:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  But I don't think my life could be better, no. Very, very.

• 1:45:09Dax Shepard?

  I don't think mine could be better either. I was thinking of regrets the other day.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:45:14Dax Shepard?

  And I generally don't have them.

• 1:45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:17Dax Shepard?

  And then I thought of, I have a single regret.

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  Ooh, share.

• 1:45:21Dax Shepard?

  And it's that I wish I could love, I wish I could have loved my dad as much while he was alive as I do now.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:45:31Dax Shepard?

  And I wonder if that's a common regret for people who lose parents.

• 1:45:34Speaker 01

  I'm sure it is.

• 1:45:35Dax Shepard?

  Like, I've made a ton of mistakes and I've hurt people and I've done bad things and, um,

• 1:45:42Dax Shepard?

  they're not regrets.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:45:45Dax Shepard?

  No, they're like, um, I am, I'm sad they happened, but I feel like they had to happen. Like, they had to happen. If I don't fuck enough people over, I don't feel guilty enough and shame-riddled enough to get sober. You know, like, if I, if I just, if I, if I have an addiction that has no wreckage, then somehow I don't end up sober. And I, and I could really evaluate my whole life that way. So if I don't make those mistakes, I don't end up.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  Yes, that's right.

• 1:46:10Dax Shepard?

  But there's nothing about not loving my dad while he was alive as much as I do now that took me in any direction I needed to be taken, nor do I think it, you know, I, I don't see any benefit whatsoever other than, um, I could have given him a lot more.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  There's just no way to know. That's why regrets are problematic. Like, there's no point in going down that road because you don't know. Also, like, you did love him.

• 1:46:37Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I did, I did, I did.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe now, it's, it's that you, it's just now that he's gone, you don't have the, the hard.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  The hard relationship part is over.

• 1:46:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:52Speaker 01

  And the hard part about him are over. The challenges are gone. So yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna think, you're gonna think of him in a much different way. But when he's here and real, he's a real person with real issues.

• 1:47:05Dax Shepard?

  That's 100% true. Obviously, like, your memory is, is rose colored in a, in a very generous, kind way.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:14Dax Shepard?

  But I have realized things through being a parent that have changed what I think about him. I've just realized a lot of stuff that I know even that same person that it was challenging, I would have just, um, I feel like I'd have a lot more grace with and, and understanding and less judgment. I don't think, I, I was so judgmental of it. Oh, my God. Just shamefully judgmental of him.

• 1:47:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:44Dax Shepard?

  So I think the things that I've like learned over the last 12 years, you have changed dramatically my overarching opinion of him.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you wouldn't have been able to have that without having kids, probably.

• 1:48:00Dax Shepard?

  But that's the sadness. Like, I think if he had lived long enough, I could have gotten to this point.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  Right. Well, then that's not a regret. That's a wish. That's a sadness. You wish you could have lived long enough for you.

• 1:48:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I guess I can't regret not learning a lesson that only having kids and time will teach you.

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:48:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but it is regrettable, I guess.

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 1:48:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Do you have any regrets?

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Um, I, I don't know if I believe in them. Like, I have, I have fleeting regret. Like, you know, things will come through my brain that I'm like, I wish I didn't do that or I wish, you know, whatever. But, um, but as a, on a, as a whole, at this stage, I don't think so. Because, again, everything informs who you are. And I don't think I would be.

• 1:48:50Dax Shepard?

  The same person.

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Yes. If, um, life hadn't gone this way, I hadn't made all these decisions, made all these mistakes and whatever.

• 1:48:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  And I, again, I like my life. I, I like who I am too, so I...

• 1:49:04Dax Shepard?

  Yes, sorry, not sorry?

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Sorry, not sorry. Not even sorry. Not sorry, not sorry. Um Reese, speaking of.

• 1:49:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  I guess, yes Reese Witherspoon, for for those who have been asking how the challenge.

• 1:49:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  She she gave me a challenge on air.

• 1:49:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  And I told her I would do it.

• 1:49:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  And then a lot of people have been texting and asking, uh, how's that going? Did you do it? Are you doing it? And I said, well, look, she didn't give me her phone number, so I don't really have to do it.

• 1:49:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  And then.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  Got a little text this morning.

• 1:49:45Dax Shepard?

  And it was a check in. It was like, how are we doing on the challenge?

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  It was she.

• 1:49:48Dax Shepard?

  Remind people, was it one a month you had to do?

• 1:49:50Speaker 01

  Uh, so I kind of forget. I feel like it was a lot. It was like.

• 1:49:53Speaker 04

  It was three in the next month, I think.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:49:56Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no.

• 1:49:59Speaker 04

  Me, me.

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 1:50:01Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  But, um.

• 1:50:02Dax Shepard?

  We should probably get the rules.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  We probably do neither of them. She texted, she said, uh, she liked the episode, which was really lovely. Let's see what she said.

• 1:50:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, let's find out.

• 1:50:11Speaker 01

  You know what I'm gonna ask?

• 1:50:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  I got scared.

• 1:50:15Dax Shepard?

  She's a taskmaster.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  She is.

• 1:50:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's very type A.

• 1:50:18Speaker 01

  She says, have you asked anyone out in the past few weeks? Question mark, hashtag accountable.

• 1:50:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, oh, no.

• 1:50:24Speaker 01

  I loved it. This is also what I love about her. Like, she's no nonsense. She is.

• 1:50:30Dax Shepard?

  She's gonna get it done.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  She's gonna get it done. And it reminded me.

• 1:50:34Dax Shepard?

  You're gonna be married by Christmas, all thanks to Reese Witherspoon.

• 1:50:36Speaker 01

  Literally, it reminded me of when we had Mindy on. I forgot about this.

• 1:50:41Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  We had Mindy on and Mindy said Reese, because they worked together on that movie. Reese was like, kind of the one that told Mindy, like, kind of shitter get off the pot, my words, not neither of those, with kids.

• 1:50:55Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:50:56Speaker 01

  Because Mindy was like, ah, maybe, I don't know. And Reese was kind of like, it, do it now.

• 1:51:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  Do it. If you want to do it, you need to do it now. And she did.

• 1:51:04Dax Shepard?

  Pull the trigger.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  And I'm like, Reese is all these Indian girls' fairy godmothers.

• 1:51:09Dax Shepard?

  Wow, I didn't even realize the, I I didn't put together the pattern.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, she is our white fairy godmother. And making moves.

• 1:51:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, wow. She walks the walk.

• 1:51:20Speaker 04

  It was in the next three months. I want you to ask out three different people.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:51:24Dax Shepard?

  There we go.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  So I feel like I have some.

• 1:51:26Dax Shepard?

  Cause I think I would have thrown a flag at three in one month. That's too ambitious.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  That is.

• 1:51:31Dax Shepard?

  And willy nilly.

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  I can't agree to that.

• 1:51:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, the odds of you just running into three strangers that you would wanna go on a date with in a month, that's, that's a high.

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  That's too high.

• 1:51:39Dax Shepard?

  You would have to be, what would be the perfect place for that?

• 1:51:42Speaker 04

  Maru.

• 1:51:43Dax Shepard?

  For me, Maru is a good start. For me, New York City. When I'm in New York, do you feel this way in New York City? When I'm in New York City, I think, well, I was single once in New York City while doing baby mama.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:55Dax Shepard?

  And it was so fun, cause you just meet so many people walking around and it's so social. And I think that would be my spot.

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  You were excited to fuck, like.

• 1:52:03Dax Shepard?

  I like fucking, yeah.

• 1:52:04Speaker 01

  No, I know, but I, I'm just saying, like, I, this is for meeting. This is for like.

• 1:52:09Dax Shepard?

  I still need to like the person I was gonna.

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  No, you don't.

• 1:52:12Dax Shepard?

  Okay, in some cases, I didn't have to, but if I'm like, gonna meet someone socially and then chat all night and then end up in that position, I'm not, I'm not suffering through, I'm not that type of degenerate.

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:26Dax Shepard?

  Sex addict.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:52:28Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, you know.

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  You're respectable.

• 1:52:30Dax Shepard?

  Elevated, elevated sex addict. Um, yeah, I need to, I need to, there needs to be some.

• 1:52:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:36Dax Shepard?

  Personality spark happening.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  I just like, I already, I already feel like, oh, New York, I can't do New York because they live in New York.

• 1:52:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yes. No, this was a hypothetical. Where do we think it would be easiest to meet three hot people in, in a month?

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  Right, but I'm saying, I wouldn't even ask, but I wouldn't even do this with them because like, it's already a non-starter. They live there.

• 1:52:57Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  But I said, okay, so I did tell her, and this is true. There was a, I did chat with someone very briefly at, outside of a coffee shop, not Maru.

• 1:53:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:09Speaker 01

  Um, and this was a, someone who liked the show.

• 1:53:13Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:53:14Speaker 01

  So they were talking to me and they were cute. And I thought like, this person is cute.

• 1:53:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:20Speaker 01

  Maybe this is the time. I'm supposed, I know I'm supposed to do this. Is this the time? But then I, I don't know how we got to this, but this person doesn't live nearby.

• 1:53:32Dax Shepard?

  Meaning they just live in a different part of the city?

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:53:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  They don't, it's not like they live in Santa Monica.

• 1:53:39Dax Shepard?

  Which, that's a long distance relationship.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  I know, okay, exactly. This was even, this is further than that.

• 1:53:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:53:46Speaker 01

  Um, and I was like, oh, you know, no.

• 1:53:50Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  So I didn't do it. And I also did get kinda self-conscious, cuz I was like talking, you know, I was like talking and asking questions and then he was like, well, I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna pick up your day. And I was like, oh my god, he's like annoyed I'm talking to him.

• 1:54:07Dax Shepard?

  Are you kidding? That was his insecurity?

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  I feel like he was like ready to be done talking.

• 1:54:12Dax Shepard?

  You have this backwards.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  I think he was ready to be done talking.

• 1:54:14Dax Shepard?

  He's like, oh my god, she doesn't wanna talk to me. I've already talked to her. She probably deals with this all the time. I'm gonna relieve, I'm gonna give her an out. What did you say?

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  I was like engaging.

• 1:54:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so what did you say after he said that?

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  I said, oh, you know, no, it was, it was really nice, it was nice to talk to you.

• 1:54:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay, say it to me. I'm you, you're him.

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, no, I, like, have, I don't wanna take up your time or anything.

• 1:54:36Dax Shepard?

  Hold on, was that his delivery and he's looking at his phone?

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  I think.

• 1:54:39Dax Shepard?

  I don't think he was looking at his phone.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  I kinda feel like.

• 1:54:41Dax Shepard?

  This guy was a dick? You let that out?

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  He wasn't a dick, but I do think.

• 1:54:45Dax Shepard?

  Say it again, say it again.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  Uh, I, yeah, I don't wanna take up your time.

• 1:54:49Dax Shepard?

  You're not taking up my time.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  I gotta go, though.

• 1:54:52Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay, so I'm taking up your time. Then in that case, you should go.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:56Speaker 01

  That's, yeah. But I won't say that.

• 1:54:59Dax Shepard?

  The last part or the part I said?

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  That you said.

• 1:55:02Dax Shepard?

  But the part I said was what you needed to say.

• 1:55:04Speaker 01

  The first part was good, the second part was defensive.

• 1:55:06Dax Shepard?

  That's because he, he turned on me.

• 1:55:09Speaker 01

  I know, he had turned on me.

• 1:55:11Dax Shepard?

  And then I was like, no, you had that one, you misread that one.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  I'm not sure.

• 1:55:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  There's no, again, like regrets, there's no way to know.

• 1:55:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay, well, hold on. Oh, wait, this guy's out of, he completely off, uh, cuz if, if he listens to the show, maybe he's hearing this.

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  I know, I hope not.

• 1:55:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh my god, he's probably so aroused right now.

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  He's probably married. I didn't ask that part.

• 1:55:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:55:31Dax Shepard?

  Was he wearing, you didn't look?

• 1:55:33Speaker 01

  I don't, I do forget to look.

• 1:55:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I never looked either.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm bad at looking at that rings. Um.

• 1:55:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  Anyway, I just, I think it's harder than people think.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  I think it's harder than you think, I think it's harder than Reece thinks. I, I did tell Reece, I said, "Look, if you come across anyone

• 1:55:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  in their 30s, send them my number." And then I said, "Or older." I'm not confident.

• 1:56:09Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:56:21Dax Shepard?

  No, you're very, you're intermittently confident.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  I know. It's confusing for everyone.

• 1:56:26Dax Shepard?

  You're not gonna take my advice, but I already know what the hack is for you.

• 1:56:30Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:56:30Dax Shepard?

  It's so simple, because I witness it all the time. The second you decide the person's not an option for you,

• 1:56:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:37Dax Shepard?

  you have unbridled confidence.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:39Dax Shepard?

  So literally, you have a mental trick that you have to play to yourself, which is like, you're chatting with that guy, and you just have to go like, "Oh, he's married and completely unavailable." And then the side of you that is like, bullishly confident,

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:56:51Dax Shepard?

  would come out.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:56:53Dax Shepard?

  And then you guys would be on a date.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:56:55Dax Shepard?

  In Marina Del Rey, eating seafood.

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  No. So I think I was confident in that exchange.

• 1:57:02Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm. Until?

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  Until he didn't want to talk to me anymore. Then I was like, "Oh, my God, this is so embarrassing."

• 1:57:11Dax Shepard?

  I think he was being polite and insecure. Keep the logical part of your brain sift through that. He came up to you to chat.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  No, he didn't come up, he just turned.

• 1:57:20Dax Shepard?

  Right, he engaged you.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, you didn't engage him.

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  No, I didn't.

• 1:57:24Dax Shepard?

  He engaged you. And so do you think you can really mount an argument that you're so boring in 30 seconds, that he went from wanting to engage you to like, "Oh, God, get me out of this." That seems, you would have to acknowledge it.

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  He wanted to say he was a fan, which he did. Okay, and then-

• 1:57:42Dax Shepard?

  He's like, "Mission accomplished."

• 1:57:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I started, "Oh, what's your name?" I started engaging.

• 1:57:47Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  So really, I did start engaging. He was just kinda like-

• 1:57:51Dax Shepard?

  Good job.

• 1:57:52Speaker 01

  "I do that."

• 1:57:53Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 1:57:54Speaker 04

  He was just being polite, though.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:57:56Speaker 04

  He was just being polite.

• 1:57:59Speaker 04

  By saying that he didn't want to take your time.

• 1:58:01Dax Shepard?

  It's very obvious that's what happened.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  You guys weren't there, neither you were there.

• 1:58:04Dax Shepard?

  No, but I don't believe, and I think your logic could get you there, that someone engaged with you and tired of it in 20 seconds. As opposed to got insecure, oh, I'm fanning out and this girl doesn't really want to talk and she's just being polite and I'm putting her in a bad position.

• 1:58:19Speaker 01

  But he also kind of wasn't fanning out, like he was at fir- at first he was like, oh, Monica, I love your show. I love, I listened to a lot of episodes. But he was also doing this kind of like, like, he wasn't that interested.

• 1:58:34Dax Shepard?

  He was a playboy. Was he a playboy?

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  Maybe. Anyway, I guess I have three people I gotta engage with. This room, this, it's really reminding me of Monica and Jess.

• 1:58:44Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  Obviously, since that's the last time I got challenged like this.

• 1:58:48Dax Shepard?

  And it, and it worked. You did a bunch of stuff.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  I did do more, I did do more.

• 1:58:54Dax Shepard?

  Anywho.

• 1:58:56Speaker 01

  It's hard, it's hard. It's hard.

• 1:59:00Dax Shepard?

  Is it possible?

• 1:59:02Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:59:02Dax Shepard?

  I feel like I'm like trying to, um, comb a tiger's hair right now. Like, I want to comb this tiger's hair. She, this tiger has a knot in her hair and I want to comb it out.

• 1:59:12Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:59:12Dax Shepard?

  And I'm really afraid to get bit too.

• 1:59:14Speaker 01

  You don't want to get bit.

• 1:59:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:17Speaker 01

  I'm a nice tiger.

• 1:59:18Dax Shepard?

  Is it possible?

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:20Dax Shepard?

  That you're taking this too seriously?

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  Taking what, the challenge?

• 1:59:24Dax Shepard?

  The whole thing. Like, it's not that big of a deal. Like, you, you ask someone out, maybe it's good, maybe it's not. It's a two-hour dinner. Like, it's, all in all, it's not a big deal. Like, maybe just, you have a little more lightness about it.

• 1:59:37Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:59:38Dax Shepard?

  Like, it, to me, it feels like this heavy rock that's on your shoulder doing this thing. As opposed to like, it's not that big, you know, it's like, you could have maybe a sense of humor about it. And it could be lighter. Uh oh. Uh oh, the claws are retracting.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Sometimes when you, your comb is like.

• 1:59:56Dax Shepard?

  Well, so I gotta get this gum. I gotta get the gum out of your hair.

• 1:59:59Speaker 01

  You're pulling, you know, you're yanking.

• 2:00:02Dax Shepard?

  I gotta get the gum out and it's not gonna feel great the whole time.

• 2:00:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and guess what? Sometimes when you yank some tiger's hair, they're gonna be like, yeah.

• 2:00:10Dax Shepard?

  They're gonna get their claws out, yeah, okay.

• 2:00:13Speaker 01

  Now.

• 2:00:13Dax Shepard?

  What do you think of that?

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  I think you have a point.

• 2:00:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:00:17Speaker 01

  Um, I do think you haven't been rejected in a long time.

• 2:00:22Dax Shepard?

  I don't think you've been rejected.

• 2:00:23Speaker 01

  Yes, I have, in life, many times, every time.

• 2:00:28Dax Shepard?

  Can you? I almost have it. I almost have the gum. Can you tell me a time in the last 10 years that you asked someone out and they said, no, thank you?

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  But they had a girlfriend.

• 2:00:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that doesn't, that doesn't count.

• 2:00:44Speaker 01

  I didn't.

• 2:00:45Dax Shepard?

  That doesn't count.

• 2:00:46Speaker 01

  Um, no, but I've had dates that.

• 2:00:52Dax Shepard?

  You didn't like.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  Right, but, but also like, I think they, I mean, not that I didn't like, but that I didn't really wanna keep pursuing, but they didn't either.

• 2:01:01Dax Shepard?

  Well, look, you went on some dates and they weren't for you. Who rejected you?

• 2:01:06Speaker 01

  He didn't really reject me, but the, I did go on a date with.

• 2:01:10Dax Shepard?

  But you didn't like him?

• 2:01:11Speaker 01

  I didn't.

• 2:01:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:13Speaker 01

  But.

• 2:01:13Dax Shepard?

  That's not, so that's not rejection.

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  But it still feels like.

• 2:01:22Speaker 01

  I don't wanna.

• 2:01:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay, we can stop.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  He also, I think, at the same time that I was becoming uninterested, was becoming uninterested.

• 2:01:32Dax Shepard?

  Great, so that's a mutual, that's not rejection.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  It feels like rejection, though.

• 2:01:35Dax Shepard?

  But it wasn't, cuz you rejected him.

• 2:01:37Speaker 01

  Well, it was mutual.

• 2:01:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  It was.

• 2:01:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so that's not, I just don't think that's rejection. You guys went on a date, he said yes, you went on a date or two. And, and you guys weren't for each other. That, that's not rejection.

• 2:01:51Speaker 01

  I know, for me, it feels like it still, okay?

• 2:01:54Dax Shepard?

  I honor that.

• 2:01:55Speaker 01

  So I know this is. My ish.

• 2:01:58Dax Shepard?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:59Speaker 01

  That I, actually, this came up recently, not in, not in connection at all to dating. I find it very hard knowing someone doesn't like me. Not necessar- not attraction wise. Yes, not even romantic, just like if someone is mad at me, or if someone decides they don't like me.

• 2:02:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:23Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's fine if I know the reason, even if I, I probably disagree with the reason.

• 2:02:31Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:02:31Speaker 01

  I, I actually, especially if I disagree with the reason.

• 2:02:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  Then it is easy for me.

• 2:02:37Dax Shepard?

  You accept it.

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  I can accept it.

• 2:02:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, same.

• 2:02:39Speaker 01

  But when there's ire toward me that I can't understand.

• 2:02:45Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:02:46Speaker 01

  Um, it really bothers me.

• 2:02:48Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  And I had therapy recently about an interaction.

• 2:02:53Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:02:54Speaker 01

  And, um, where, where I was like, this person just hates me. And it is, it is so uncomfortable for me.

• 2:03:03Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:03:03Speaker 01

  Um, and you know, we had to sort of get to the bottom of it. And a lot of it is for me, like if someone doesn't like me, then they'll exclude me from their club or their safe spa- their area. And I'll be alone and I'll be dead. Like, it's like, it becomes safety so fast.

• 2:03:29Dax Shepard?

  Existential.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  Yes, and you know, she had to be, remind me.

• 2:03:34Dax Shepard?

  She got her comb out?

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  Yes, her comb is so gentle.

• 2:03:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  She uses a spray.

• 2:03:39Dax Shepard?

  And I'm a talk show host.

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  She uses like really good spray and I don't even.

• 2:03:43Dax Shepard?

  She's got a great detangler.

• 2:03:45Speaker 01

  I don't feel it, yeah.

• 2:03:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I.

• 2:03:47Speaker 01

  It's probably L'Levee.

• 2:03:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I'm a boy trying to get knots out of a girl's hair and I'm just not.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  You're doing a good job.

• 2:03:53Dax Shepard?

  I mean.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  So she basically was like, you know, you have to remember, is the, is the person or the club or the thing that you're gonna be excluded from, one you wanna be in?

• 2:04:07Dax Shepard?

  Right, yeah.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  And. No is the answer. Like, no, I don't need acceptance from that person because I don't agree with that person on most things, or I don't like the way that person operates, or the people they're around. No, I don't want to be in that club. So actually-

• 2:04:23Dax Shepard?

  I don't want to be a member of any group that doesn't want me.

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  Right, but see, I normally have the opposite thing.

• 2:04:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I would never be the member of a club that would have me.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm so used to that.

• 2:04:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  And I have to transition into, yeah, I don't want to be in that relationship any, I don't want to. So why do I want them to want me?

• 2:04:45Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  So it's, you know, but it is safety and it is old. It's very old. So it's a rewiring.

• 2:04:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. I do the same thing, but it's, it's more physical, you know?

• 2:04:58Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 2:04:58Dax Shepard?

  Like, I, my work over the last 10 years has been, no one's gonna try to physically hurt you. You don't have to protect yourself.

• 2:05:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:08Dax Shepard?

  And it's very hard to break.

• 2:05:09Speaker 01

  It's so hard. And it got, we got into another layer of this. Um, I have to be careful about what I say.

• 2:05:16Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  But I do-

• 2:05:18Dax Shepard?

  Rob and I already think it's both about us, so.

• 2:05:22Speaker 01

  It's about both of you. I do think I have a habit in general, in my life, whether it's in any kind of relationship, work, um, I put so much in. Like, really give it my all, completely. And I do it subconsciously. It is not on purpose, but it's definitely subconsciously because I am trying to secure my place. Like, well, I've put-

• 2:05:57Dax Shepard?

  You want to make yourself indispensable in every situation.

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  I put in this, so obviously they can't get rid of me. I've given all of this, so obviously they can't get rid of me. And that's not how life works. It still happens.

• 2:06:08Dax Shepard?

  Even part of your protector thing, which is a part of my protector thing. They'll need me because I protect them and they've noticed it.

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  Yes, and, and that's not how life works and people don't-

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  Owe you anything? Again, I'm not doing it on purpose.

• 2:06:26Dax Shepard?

  Of course.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  It is not on purpose.

• 2:06:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I totally get it. It's all in your subconscious.

• 2:06:30Speaker 01

  Yes, but no one owes you anything. And so sometimes the people that you've, you know, thought i- i- in your head, you've made it yourself indispensable, or you've made, you've created a loyalty that must not be broken. Sometimes it does get broken. And then I am left feeling like so confused, so upended, like. And then, you know, there's this phrase, how could you, after all I've done for you?

• 2:07:02Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:07:03Speaker 01

  And so we, you know, I wrote that phrase down.

• 2:07:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  And I was like, I don't want to be a person that thinks like that. I don't want to think all, after all I've done for you.

• 2:07:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:16Speaker 01

  I don't want to be someone with strings attached. I think that's like the worst way to relation with people. So I really need to be careful and watch myself because I, I don't mean to do it, but I think it happens.

• 2:07:30Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right, right, right.

• 2:07:31Speaker 01

  I think it's common, which is why I'm saying it.

• 2:07:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:34Speaker 01

  And I think it's important to monitor. And she brought up the Al-Anon phrase, give for free and for fun. And I was like, yeah, that's like, you gotta remember that. And it's important.

• 2:07:47Dax Shepard?

  I do think I've had, this is a very weird statement, but I do think I have the privilege and advantage. Like, your friends were also really great students that went to a great college, who all got professional jobs and were largely quite responsible.

• 2:08:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:02Dax Shepard?

  And my friends were like regularly letting me down and fucking my girlfriends. And I was doing the same shit to them.

• 2:08:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:09Dax Shepard?

  So I think earlier in my twenties, I had to get a little better at like, yeah, I'm just gonna love them, like, that's just how it's gonna be.

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:08:16Dax Shepard?

  And, um, yeah, I'm gonna give, cause I, I want, I want to.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  And I feel like I do, like, I, I've, in the moment, that is what it feels like.

• 2:08:27Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:08:27Speaker 01

  It feels like it's giving for fun and for free.

• 2:08:29Dax Shepard?

  And then you start making your case, your court case. You're stepping up to the stand.

• 2:08:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so that's the moment to remember it. Like, that's not why you did any of this, and... They are making these decisions because of this.

• 2:08:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  And it's not about me. And that's it. Okay. So I, it's been, yeah, it was an interesting realization.

• 2:08:51Dax Shepard?

  I do think there is a little bit of a fairy tale we tell ourselves, which is like, this is permanent. I've invested and it's permanent. And it's not. Relationships are like sobriety. It's a daily choice.

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:07Dax Shepard?

  And you just get that day.

• 2:09:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:08Dax Shepard?

  And it's not gonna inoculate you in three weeks, the work you did today. You know, if you don't do it on that day. So it's like, yeah, relationships are very much. I think I want them to be like, well, good, I proved myself and now we're good forever.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:09:24Dax Shepard?

  And that's just not how they are. They're living and dynamic and changing and it's kind of every day.

• 2:09:29Speaker 01

  I know. And, and you have to decide who gets that energy of yours. Like who, yeah, yeah.

• 2:09:37Dax Shepard?

  And probably like expectations help a lot.

• 2:09:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:41Dax Shepard?

  In that scenario.

• 2:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard. But also I do think I.

• 2:09:45Dax Shepard?

  There's not a stitch of gum in that mane now.

• 2:09:47Speaker 01

  He got it all out.

• 2:09:49Dax Shepard?

  I'm running the comb through now and it is like, you're not even feeling that I'm running the comb through.

• 2:09:54Speaker 01

  This tiger got its own gum out.

• 2:09:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, okay.

• 2:09:58Speaker 01

  Oh, I do want hair play.

• 2:10:00Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:10:01Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah, nice. Um, all right, let's do some facts.

• 2:10:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:10:06Speaker 01

  Okay, Mel. So you said that the closest, like, high peak um to Michigan is Killington. Another place I've been and like.

• 2:10:18Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 2:10:19Speaker 01

  Okay, what do we count as like high peak?

• 2:10:22Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna say over six thousand.

• 2:10:25Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Okay, this is not.

• 2:10:28Dax Shepard?

  Is Killington even over six thousand? I think it is.

• 2:10:30Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know. Rob, can you look?

• 2:10:32Speaker 04

  Four thousand two hundred and twenty-nine.

• 2:10:35Speaker 01

  Okay, so we're not even close to six.

• 2:10:38Dax Shepard?

  We're gonna have to make it four thousand then, I guess, is the cutoff.

• 2:10:42Speaker 01

  Because when you Google it, like, closest high mountain peak to Michigan, it says Mount Arvon.

• 2:10:49Dax Shepard?

  Where's that, Canada?

• 2:10:50Speaker 01

  In the U.P. But it's only two thousand feet.

• 2:10:54Dax Shepard?

  Twenty, two thousand feet, yeah, that's not gonna cut it.

• 2:10:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:57Dax Shepard?

  And there's skiing in the U.P., uh, and it's better than it is in the lower peninsula.

• 2:11:02Speaker 01

  In the LP?

• 2:11:03Dax Shepard?

  It's not, it's not a twenty-five minute run down the mountain.

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  Do they call it the LP?

• 2:11:09Dax Shepard?

  Never.

• 2:11:10Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:11:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they just call it Michigan, and if you're stuck in the U.P., you have to distinguish that you're saying, I'm in the U.P.

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  Okay, well now-

• 2:11:16Dax Shepard?

  As is appropriate. Ninety-nine percent of the population lives in the-

• 2:11:20Speaker 01

  LP.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  So, okay, just looked up all fifty state high points in the U.S. and how to visit them. Okay, Alaska has-

• 2:11:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, let me, Denali?

• 2:11:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:34Dax Shepard?

  And let me guess these.

• 2:11:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:11:36Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna say Denali is, I wanna say between eighteen to twenty thousand square, uh, feet.

• 2:11:45Speaker 01

  Twenty thousand?

• 2:11:46Dax Shepard?

  Twenty thousand.

• 2:11:47Speaker 01

  Twenty thousand three hundred and ten, good job.

• 2:11:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great, great, great, great.

• 2:11:50Speaker 01

  Okay, California, we have a big one.

• 2:11:53Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 2:11:53Speaker 01

  In the southern Sierra Nevada.

• 2:11:55Dax Shepard?

  Sierra Nevada.

• 2:11:56Speaker 01

  Mircrass.

• 2:11:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm gonna say up there, we get to twelve-nine or thirteen.

• 2:12:03Speaker 01

  Mount Whitney, fourteen thousand four hundred ninety-eight.

• 2:12:06Dax Shepard?

  Fourteen-four.

• 2:12:08Speaker 01

  Pretty good.

• 2:12:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay.

• 2:12:10Speaker 01

  Okay, um, Colorado has Mount Elbert.

• 2:12:15Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna go with fifteen-eight, sixteen-

• 2:12:19Speaker 01

  Nope, fourteen.

• 2:12:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  Fourteen thousand four hundred and thirty-three. We're getting lower, so California's is-

• 2:12:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think Washington's got a sixteen thousand footer.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  I'm only seeing, I see Mount- Rainier.

• 2:12:33Dax Shepard?

  Mount Rainier.

• 2:12:34Speaker 01

  Fourteen thousand four hundred and eleven feet.

• 2:12:36Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow. So nothing's gotten into sixteen yet.

• 2:12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:40Dax Shepard?

  Other than Denali.

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're getting.

• 2:12:42Dax Shepard?

  The big boy.

• 2:12:43Speaker 01

  Going down, so.

• 2:12:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, we're getting smaller and smaller.

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have Wyoming.

• 2:12:47Dax Shepard?

  Wait, did California have the second highest? California, touche.

• 2:12:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:12:52Dax Shepard?

  We got the ocean, we got the sand dunes, we got the beach, we got the snow.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  We got it all.

• 2:12:57Dax Shepard?

  We got the lowest point in the, in America, in Death Valley.

• 2:13:01Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:13:01Dax Shepard?

  And the highest point in the contiguous USA.

• 2:13:06Speaker 01

  Wow, that's cool.

• 2:13:07Dax Shepard?

  Congratulations, California.

• 2:13:08Speaker 01

  Mount Hood, you know, Mount Hood.

• 2:13:10Dax Shepard?

  Absolutely. I think that's in the thirteens.

• 2:13:12Speaker 01

  Eleven.

• 2:13:13Dax Shepard?

  Aye.

• 2:13:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, so embarrassing.

• 2:13:16Dax Shepard?

  Puke.

• 2:13:17Speaker 01

  Really embarrassing. Wait, closest to Michigan, okay.

• 2:13:22Speaker 01

  Is New Hampshire close? Nope.

• 2:13:24Dax Shepard?

  Well, similar distance to, is Vermont.

• 2:13:26Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, well.

• 2:13:27Dax Shepard?

  We're looking at an eleven hour car ride either way.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  Mount Washington is six thousand two hundred and eighty-eight.

• 2:13:33Dax Shepard?

  That's in New Hampshire?

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:13:35Dax Shepard?

  I wonder if they got skiing there?

• 2:13:37Speaker 01

  They probably do.

• 2:13:38Dax Shepard?

  And I do think it's, because when we go to Killington.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:41Dax Shepard?

  You go through Canada. We would go up through Canada, then down Niagara, and then over. We wouldn't go through Pennsylvania.

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 2:13:49Dax Shepard?

  And New York, yeah.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:13:50Dax Shepard?

  All right. You did a good job saying interesting, because I know that's not interesting to you, whether we went the northern and southern route.

• 2:13:56Speaker 01

  I thought it was really interesting.

• 2:13:56Dax Shepard?

  And you did a really convincing job of saying interesting.

• 2:14:00Speaker 01

  Oh, here's Michigan, Mount Arvon, one thousand nine hundred and seventy-nine feet.

• 2:14:05Dax Shepard?

  Puke, it's not even two thousand.

• 2:14:06Speaker 01

  Georgia has a higher one.

• 2:14:08Dax Shepard?

  What's your highest? Stone Mountain?

• 2:14:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:14:11Dax Shepard?

  Nine hundred feet?

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  It's called Brass Town Bald.

• 2:14:14Dax Shepard?

  Well, probably in the northeast, getting into the Smokies.

• 2:14:16Speaker 01

  It's in the Blue Ridge, um, four thousand seven hundred and eighty-four feet.

• 2:14:21Dax Shepard?

  That's nice, that's Killington size.

• 2:14:22Speaker 01

  Pretty nice. I don't think they're skiing there. Um, all right, well, that was a fun game.

• 2:14:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  Tammy Faye Baker, was she from?

• 2:14:33Speaker 01

  Muskegon, is that what you say?

• 2:14:36Dax Shepard?

  Muskegon, yeah.

• 2:14:36Speaker 01

  Muskegon, okay. No.

• 2:14:39Dax Shepard?

  Uh oh.

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  She's.

• 2:14:42Dax Shepard?

  Not at all.

• 2:14:43Speaker 01

  She's from Minnesota.

• 2:14:45Dax Shepard?

  Same.

• 2:14:46Speaker 01

  But maybe she moved there. Hold on, let's see.

• 2:14:49Speaker 04

  Her husband was born there.

• 2:14:51Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:14:51Dax Shepard?

  Jim Baker?

• 2:14:53Speaker 04

  Uh, yes. Jim Baker, nineteen forty.

• 2:14:56Speaker 01

  Okay. In Muskegon?

• 2:14:58Speaker 04

  Muskegon, Michigan.

• 2:14:59Speaker 01

  Okay, great. That answers that.

• 2:15:01Dax Shepard?

  He probably brought her there.

• 2:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe.

• 2:15:04Dax Shepard?

  What a team, those two.

• 2:15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:07Dax Shepard?

  You're not old enough to really have been seeing them on TV all the time as kids, right?

• 2:15:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:15:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:12Speaker 01

  But I saw the movie.

• 2:15:14Dax Shepard?

  Oh, there's a movie about?

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  Remember?

• 2:15:15Dax Shepard?

  Oh, who's in it?

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  You loved it.

• 2:15:17Dax Shepard?

  I love it, yeah. My favorite movie. Jessica Chastain.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  That was a good movie.

• 2:15:22Dax Shepard?

  That's a good.

• 2:15:24Speaker 01

  That was a great movie.

• 2:15:25Dax Shepard?

  Chastain can do anything.

• 2:15:26Speaker 01

  Oh, she's so good.

• 2:15:28Dax Shepard?

  She is.

• 2:15:29Speaker 01

  Okay, the population of Muskegon in the nineties, I looked up, was approximately forty-four thousand.

• 2:15:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, pretty big.

• 2:15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then the population, there's a lot of populations up top of Duluth, my hometown, is thirty-one thousand.

• 2:15:47Dax Shepard?

  I think I guessed thirty thousand.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  You probably guessed right around there, yeah.

• 2:15:51Dax Shepard?

  Having never been there, just getting a sense of what was available to you commercially. Food and shopping.

• 2:16:00Speaker 01

  Food and shopping.

• 2:16:01Dax Shepard?

  And then adding that I never heard of it before I met you.

• 2:16:04Speaker 01

  Right. Because if you had heard of it, you would have gone higher?

• 2:16:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:08Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 2:16:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:10Speaker 01

  I looked up how many, what the percentage of people is that identify as morning people.

• 2:16:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:16:16Speaker 01

  Because, you know, she doesn't want to get out of bed.

• 2:16:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:16:18Speaker 01

  Neither do I.

• 2:16:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:20Speaker 01

  I hate getting out of bed.

• 2:16:21Dax Shepard?

  It's a genetic thing. There is a marker for it.

• 2:16:24Speaker 01

  Really?

• 2:16:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  There are six human chronotypes, not just morning larks and night owls. Oh, there's more.

• 2:16:30Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 2:16:31Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. There's morning type, evening type, highly active type, daytime sleepy type, daytime type, moderately active type.

• 2:16:42Dax Shepard?

  These sound like descriptions for like a depends like when you're shut like are you moderately active? Are you a night owl?

• 2:16:51Speaker 01

  It does. I kind of, I like this though, because I'm not a morning type or an evening type. I guess I'm a daytime type.

• 2:17:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  And I'm a daytime sleepy type.

• 2:17:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You're a sleepy type.

• 2:17:08Speaker 01

  Okay, but it says that fifteen, approximately fifteen percent of the population identifies as morning people, larks.

• 2:17:18Dax Shepard?

  That's it?

• 2:17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:19Dax Shepard?

  I would have thought it was higher.

• 2:17:20Speaker 01

  While the majority around seventy percent are intermediate types and the remaining fifteen are evening types, night owl. What are you?

• 2:17:29Dax Shepard?

  Fucking night owl, but it's changed with age. But my whole life, I do so well going to bed at two AM and waking up at ten AM.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:38Dax Shepard?

  Anytime I had an option for that schedule, that was my schedule. Yeah. Yeah.

• 2:17:45Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm best sleeping at eleven, like my body wants to go to bed at eleven.

• 2:17:51Dax Shepard?

  And wake up at nine?

• 2:17:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:53Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:17:54Speaker 01

  Or ten or eleven.

• 2:17:55Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 2:17:57Dax Shepard?

  Five PM for supper, just in time for suppy.

• 2:18:00Speaker 01

  Who wrote The Body Keeps the Score? That's Bessel van der Kolk.

• 2:18:05Dax Shepard?

  I feel bad for all these people whose books I know, but I don't know their, their names.

• 2:18:09Speaker 01

  Well, it's hard to remember.

• 2:18:10Dax Shepard?

  When you say that name, my brain goes, we're never getting that one. Don't even try. Don't waste any time.

• 2:18:16Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:18:16Dax Shepard?

  Like I know to quit.

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  You're giving up immediately.

• 2:18:19Dax Shepard?

  Absolutely.

• 2:18:20Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:18:21Dax Shepard?

  You couldn't even say it.

• 2:18:22Speaker 01

  Bessel van der Kolk, that's hard. Yeah. Yep, that's hard.

• 2:18:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:25Speaker 01

  I did, you brought up a brief history of intelligence.

• 2:18:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:30Speaker 01

  And I was proud of myself because I knew immediately Max Bennett.

• 2:18:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's great. And I don't, and we had him and I loved him and I remember his history.

• 2:18:37Speaker 01

  He was great.

• 2:18:38Dax Shepard?

  But the name is hard.

• 2:18:41Speaker 01

  I wonder, it probably has to do with interacting with the edit more and maybe I like see the name more or something, or I've at minimally, I've heard it. More?

• 2:18:53Dax Shepard?

  I could be wrong about, this is my own interpretation of what happened.

• 2:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:58Dax Shepard?

  With me and reading.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:19:01Dax Shepard?

  I cannot say there's any studies to back this up. This is just what feels like happened. All the words were completely obscure to me.

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:11Dax Shepard?

  Um, I couldn't sound things out. I couldn't look at the letters. They didn't translate to phonetic sounds for me. So I just couldn't, just be staring at it. I mean, like.

• 2:19:20Speaker 01

  It means nothing.

• 2:19:21Dax Shepard?

  But I think slowly over time, I memorized every word in its totality.

• 2:19:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:19:26Dax Shepard?

  Like when I see a word, I see the whole thing.

• 2:19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:19:29Dax Shepard?

  And I know what it is.

• 2:19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:31Dax Shepard?

  Through just tons of practice. I know what they look like as a, as a unit, not, not a bunch of little units making the word, but as its own unit.

• 2:19:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:39Dax Shepard?

  Names are a new thing and I haven't memorized it in its totality and I can't really sound it or look at it.

• 2:19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 2:19:48Dax Shepard?

  That's my current excuse. It might just be I'm lazy and I don't care about people.

• 2:19:52Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't think it's that, but that, that, yeah, names are brand new unless they're Dax Shepard, Monica Padman.

• 2:20:00Dax Shepard?

  Rob Hollis, but even Hollis is problematic.

• 2:20:03Speaker 01

  Hollis is hard.

• 2:20:03Dax Shepard?

  It's gonna be problematic till Rob dies.

• 2:20:07Speaker 01

  Um, all right, well, that's all my facts.

• 2:20:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. Uh, Killington's sub 5,000.

• 2:20:12Speaker 01

  Ew, that was a hard one for you to take.

• 2:20:14Dax Shepard?

  But Duluth was 30,000, so it's a push.

• 2:20:17Speaker 01

  It's a push.

• 2:20:18Dax Shepard?

  All right, love you.

• 2:20:18Speaker 01

  Love you.