302. Why Learn Esperanto?

A language invented in the 19th century, and meant to be universal, it never really caught on. So why does a group of Esperantists from around the world gather once a year to celebrate their bond?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. There's no hiding how convenient Southern New Hampshire University makes college. They offer over 80 career-focused graduate programs online. Classes have no set meeting times, so you can balance life and learning, and online tuition rates are some of the lowest in the country, making it all a little more manageable. A school this willing to work with you is worth the investment. Visit snhu.edu/freakonomics to learn more. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds, because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready

• 0:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  to face the day. So, switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by hotels.com. Hotels.com helps you find and book the right stay for work faster. With business preferences, save your travel must haves, like gym access or breakfast, just once, then get tailored results whenever you search for work travel. Plus, with a free membership, you can save up to 20% on hotels and earn rewards on every stay for future travel. Book now at hotels.com.

• 1:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  Visit hotels.com for details. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work is a new way to work in ChatGPT. ChatGPT Work can pull info from across your apps and connect to your tools to help you create finished work. You can even automate work in ChatGPT with the Scheduled Tasks feature, and the whole time, you stay in control. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.

• 2:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  In our previous episode, we looked at the idea of a universal language. One candidate was Esperanto, a language invented in the 19th century by a Jewish ophthalmologist named Ludwig Lazarus Zamenhof. Derived from various European roots, Esperanto was meant to be easy to learn and egalitarian. The idea was not for Esperanto to supersede existing languages.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  It would stand next to national languages and be a helping language to make bonds among people who were not like one another.

• 2:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  A noble goal, surely, but alas, not quite attainable, at least not on the scale Zamenhof desired. However, as our producer Stephanie Tam learned, and as she explains in today's special episode, there is a small global community of Esperantists who convene once a year to revel in their bond. So today, you're going to meet people who are taking time off of work, who are spending money to go and participate in this weird Esperanto, as they call it, this weird Esperanto land that only exists temporarily wherever all these weirdos meet together. On today's episode, our producer Stephanie Tam takes a trip deep into Esperanto land.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Estimates for how many people speak Esperanto range, but the Ethnologue, a comprehensive language database, cites 2 million speakers spanning 100 countries. Just 1,000 of those are native speakers who grow up in Esperanto-speaking families and usually also speak one or two other national languages. The most famous of these is probably billionaire financier George Soros. But for the vast majority, well, they might be the only Esperanto speakers in the area. So why on earth learn it? I traveled to the Esperanto USA National Congress to find out. For the past several years, it's been held at William Peace University in Raleigh, North Carolina.

• 4:47Speaker 03

  This is my fourth year here in Raleigh. And as I was driving in from the west, we got to the first highway sign that said Raleigh 55 miles. And I said, "It's like coming home. It's just like, we're almost there. This is so exciting." "We're there. We're there."

• 5:03Speaker 02

  That's Lee Miller, a 65-year-old Texan and former sign language interpreter and nurse. He learned Esperanto at 16. Now, he teaches it in his retirement. He and another Esperantist picked me up from the airport and drove me to campus.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  And I really have that sense of excitement about, I know the place. We know the staff at the university now, and they know us. "Oh, it's the Esperanto people. We're glad to have you back, and we're glad to be back."

• 5:29Speaker 02

  You know that something interesting and sweet is happening when you feel that you're returning home to a place that you only visit once a year.

• 5:37Speaker 03

  I know, and it's not really home. But these are people who are important to me. I don't know if you know the old musical "Burgadune."

• 5:48Speaker 03

  It was about a little village in the countryside that only appeared one day a year. And there's a love story connected with it. But sometimes I kind of have the sense that our summer Esperanto gatherings are a little bit like that. We go away for most of the year. And then during week two, we come back and we get together and we have face-to-face interactions. And it is very sweet. Sweet is a good word for it.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  A lot of Esperantists describe their community as a kind of family. Somewhat ironic, as the joke among Esperantists is that many spouses don't share the language, so their actual, everyday family might not know Esperanto at all. And yet...

• 6:27Speaker 03

  If I were in a group like this, and I needed somebody to hold my wallet with all my money in it, I would hand it to an Esperanto speaker in full confidence that whenever I came back, they would hand it back to me and my money would still be in it. I have that level of confidence and trust in the people I know. Welcome to William Peace University.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  The National Congress is a combination of socializing workshops and seminars and a dose of admin meetings about running the USA Association. This year, there were about 70 attendees, with guests flying in from Canada, the Netherlands, and elsewhere, and about 1,000 streaming from Facebook Live. For the past several years, the National Congress has been followed by an eight-day Esperanto summer course where people can learn the language. This year, they had 58 students. Both events are held at William Peace, a fitting home for a language born with the goal of world unity. That internal idea of Esperanto, or what Esperantists call "la interna ideao," pardon

• 7:33Speaker 02

  my accent, was originally rooted in Jewish universalism and remains a connecting thread. But humans being the fickle, creative creatures that they are, it's been adapted throughout history for some very different ends.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  The history of Esperanto involves socialists in the early 1920s who wanted to use Esperanto to further the goals of socialism.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  That's Esther Shore, English professor and Esperanto scholar at Princeton University. We spoke a few weeks before the Congress.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  It involves Bolshevism. The Soviets embraced Esperanto for a period of time. Until they changed their minds and shot the Esperantists in 1938, there was a very short-lived Nazi Esperanto movement. And Esperanto has been used for a number of other kinds of causes for pacifism, for green consciousness, et cetera, et cetera.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  This year's keynote speaker was Humphrey Tonkin, an English professor at the University of Hartford and former president of the Universal Esperanto Association. His speech highlighted what he considers the unjust dominance of English today. But he also recalled the original founding principles of the language. He delivered the speech in Esperanto and gave me an English translation afterward.

• 8:55Speaker 04

  Zamenhof emphasized that first and foremost, we're human beings, and only secondarily, members of particular nations or peoples or languages. If appealing to what is best in humanity, rather than reinforcing what divides us, is idealistic or utopian, I suppose we must plead guilty. But if using what brings us together to talk about and celebrate what makes us all different is a rational approach to our divided world, then Esperanto seems to me to make a great deal of sense. I know what you, here in Raleigh at this gathering of Esperanto speakers, think. Esperanto works, and you're going to keep on using it

• 9:39Speaker 04

  and convincing others to do the same.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  Despite that common internal idea, whether you want to call it utopianism, universalism, et cetera, I discovered that people come to Esperanto for all sorts of reasons. Some are polyglots who just love learning languages. Others are programmer types who appreciate its logic. And then there are those with a sense of adventure.

• 10:08Speaker 05

  I'm originally from Cuba, where I also was part of the Esperanto movement. In the real life, I work as a professor of chemistry in Santa Rosa Junior College in Santa Rosa, California.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  That's Orlando Raiola, who recently finished his six-year term as president of Esperanto USA.

• 10:27Speaker 05

  Having been born in an island, being an islander by nature, I always had this great curiosity. What is beyond the sea? What is the world out there? And I understood early that the only way to communicate with humans is through language. And I was fascinated, interested in many different cultures.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  That said, his fascination with the world beyond didn't lead him straight to Esperanto.

• 10:53Speaker 05

  I was always fascinated by the culture of Nordic countries, especially Sweden. I once wrote a letter to the Swedish Institute. It's a Swedish institution that disseminates Swedish culture outside Sweden. And I sent them a letter. I want to learn this language. I want to get to know about this culture. A few months later, I got a big package with everything you need to know to learn Swedish: dictionaries, cassettes, courses for learning the language, reading material. I mean, it was a big box. I said, this is a very difficult language. I'm going to spend how many years to learn this? And then I would be able to communicate

• 11:38Speaker 05

  with a very tiny sliver of mankind. I am very interested in the culture, but so am I in the culture of Japan and of Hungary and of China. And, you know, do I have time to learn of these languages? No, they won't be tough. So when I tried to go through it, that day, that's the day I became an Esperantist.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  So for some people, learning Esperanto is a way to follow their cultural curiosity. For others, though, there are war stories.

• 12:08Speaker 06

  My name is Maria Murphy. I am retired, have two wonderful boys and four wonderful grandchildren. It takes a special person, I think, to be really devoted Esperanto follower. And it happened to me, I am the one.

• 12:24Speaker 02

  She's a petite grandma with a cheeky smile, astoundingly upbeat, given her past.

• 12:29Speaker 06

  I grew up in Warsaw. I am, you could call me a Holocaust survivor. You know, I'm from the Jewish family that everybody was killed. Apparently, I was a quiet baby and I was constantly eating, I mean, at mommy's breast. So I was not crying. You know, people were suffocating their own babies if they start crying.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  After the war, she and her mother left Poland.

• 12:56Speaker 06

  We decided to immigrate to Israel. And on the way, we stopped in France and we stopped in Italy. And as a very young girl, I pick up those languages pretty quickly on the street. And I just felt that people should be able to talk to each other, no matter where you are. And here, I mean, eight, nine-year-old girl, I had this strong experience. Every country, every day, I spoke different language, you know. So there should be a better way.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  For Murphy, that better way was Esperanto, which she stumbled upon as a teenager. She and her mother had returned to Poland, and she came across an ad for an Esperanto club.

• 13:36Speaker 06

  You see, at that time, I didn't have really society. I didn't have any place that I felt I belonged to. Because most of the Polish people are very strong Catholic. So when I found a group of people that meeting like twice a week and having wonderful discussion, drinking good coffee, eating good cake, and they were young people, it was very natural to become a part of it.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Murphy would actually meet her husband through Esperanto, which brings us to another reason that people join the community: the love stories. Joel and Genia Amis were a Cold War couple who also met through Esperanto. Genia's from Ukraine, Joel from Atlanta. They had both applied for the same job, an editor position for an Esperanto magazine based in the Netherlands but operated remotely. Genia snagged the top position.

• 14:30Speaker 07

  I just asked, so who was this other candidate? And there was some guy from the US. And I just asked, can you send me his resume? And when I was looking at him, hmm, I like this guy. He looks so intelligent. I'll try to hire him to be my assistant.

• 14:48Speaker 08

  You didn't have a photo. It was just on paper, just to be clear.

• 14:55Speaker 08

  And so, we worked together for like, a year and a half or so before we ever met in person.

• 15:01Speaker 02

  Work aside, they insist there's a more fundamental way Esperanto connected them.

• 15:06Speaker 07

  Esperanto is not just a language, it's really, it's almost like a value system, right?

• 15:13Speaker 08

  I would agree. When I look back at the person I was in my early teens before I became an Esperantist, I don't really recognize that person anymore. I grew up as a Christian and I still am, but my approach is much different. And at first, it was just a linguistic interest, you know, kind of like a game. I didn't have anyone locally to speak to. So, the Esperanto community brought me into contact with people that I wouldn't have had contact with otherwise. I've had pen pals in Eastern Europe or wherever, you know, in these places that were so far away from me culturally.

• 15:53Speaker 08

  It almost sounds evangelical to talk about it like that, but for me at least, it was a catalyst. It changed the course of my life from where maybe if I hadn't learned Esperanto, I might just be in Georgia in a small town, you know, not having traveled or anything like that. When I grew up, I heard that the Soviet Union wanted to drop bombs on us and, you know, this is the enemy. And she heard, you know, how awful-

• 16:21Speaker 07

  The story the other way around.

• 16:23Speaker 08

  You know, and how do we get to, you know, being married from that point? You know, growing up in such different places, a different mindset. I think for both of us, Esperanto was that catalyst. What we have in the Esperanto community is kind of like a microcosm for what could be or what should be. This community that spans languages, political ideologies, religions, races. On a small scale, this is the world that Zamenhof dreamed of.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  Talking with Esperantists, I felt like I was interacting with an epic metaphor: linguistic communication as human community. The notion that a universal language could create world peace seemed too romantic. What about civil wars, where both parties shared the language? But at the same time, it was clear that there was something special going on. Miller, Amos Murphy, and these other Esperantists had used this language to create a kind of small-scale utopia.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Up next, we get into pragmatics. Could Esperanto, for instance, save the European Union a lot of money in education costs?

• 17:43Speaker 09

  He concluded that actually it would be cheaper to have Esperanto play that kind of intermediary role.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  We discover how travel in this small-scale utopia works. Basically, you just show up and they usually they give you a key to their homes. And we ask, could that sense of trust and community be retained if the microcosm were scaled up?

• 18:06Speaker 10

  If Esperanto were to become a universal language, I think things like this would die.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  That's coming up next.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  On Freakonomics Radio.

• 18:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat? The sweater that goes with everything? The perfect pair of pants? Or the tea you somehow always reach for first? Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy, and that's what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool. The styles are timeless, versatile, and designed to become the dependable pieces you reach for day after day. And it's not just clothing. Quince brings that same approach to everything they make, from hotel-quality bedding and bath to kitchen And thoughtfully designed furniture. Find your next fall favorites at Quince.

• 19:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com/freak. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's Q U I N C E dot com slash freak.

• 19:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio, sponsored by Southern New Hampshire University. The best investments are the ones you make in yourself. And no one knows that better than Southern New Hampshire University. With more than 200 online degree programs, no set class times and low online tuition. Southern New Hampshire University is built to fit your life today and set you up for success tomorrow. Education is an investment. Why not make it a smart one? Apply for free at S N H U dot E D U slash Freakonomics.

• 20:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Progressive. Whoever says saving money is hard doesn't know that new customers who bundle and save with Progressive save hundreds because switching your home and auto insurance is better than cutting down on the things you love, like those iced lattes that help you get ready to face the day. So switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers. Not available in all states.

• 20:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  Welcome back to this special episode of Freakonomics Radio. Here's producer Stephanie Tam.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  For all its idealism, Esperanto also has a deeply pragmatic side. It was designed to be easy to learn and, in a word, efficient, which makes it a language that appeals not only to dreamers, activists and ambassadors, but also economists.

• 21:13Speaker 09

  There's a professor at the University of Geneva who studied this, Francois Grin. And actually, the French government asked him to make a study of language costs in Europe.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  That's Duncan Charter, professor of languages and cultures at Principia College in Illinois, where he teaches Spanish.

• 21:28Speaker 09

  And he concluded that actually it would be cheaper to have Esperanto play that kind of intermediary role.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  How much cheaper? Back in 2005, Grant calculated that substituting the high cost of learning English with the low cost of Esperanto in non-English speaking countries could save the EU upwards of 25 billion euros annually.

• 21:51Speaker 09

  The French government wasn't looking for that answer. They wanted something different involving French. But actually, that was a very good point, I think. And the cost of learning Esperanto is less just because it's so much quicker.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  How much quicker? Well, obviously, ease of language learning depends on all kinds of factors: natural ability, age of acquisition, regular practice. But one study with a sample of Francophone children found that just 150 hours of Esperantic education resulted in the same level of proficiency as 1,000 hours of Italian, 1,500 hours of English, and 2,000 hours of German, making Esperanto an average of 10 times faster to learn than these natural languages. So what makes it so much faster and easier to learn?

• 22:39Speaker 11

  There are 16 basic rules of the language. For example, every noun ends in the letter O. Every adjective ends in the letter A. Every infinitive ends in the letter I. The future, present, and past have totally regular endings. There's no need to learn any conjugations. They don't exist in Esperanto.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  So that's Ruth Kevis Cohen, a geriatrics doctor in Maryland. In Esperanto, she goes by her middle name. In her spare time, she helped develop an Esperanto course for the online language site Duolingo, which she used to try and teach me Esperanto.

• 23:19Speaker 11

  This is lesson one of the Duolingo course, which starts out showing some pictures. Which of these is man?

• 23:30Speaker 02

  I see a picture of a man with a viro. I'm gonna click that one.

• 23:36Speaker 11

  By putting your finger here, you can see what it is. The word la means the. So just like in English, "the" is "la", there's no plural form.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  There's no conjugation with that. It's just "la" is always "the".

• 23:50Speaker 11

  Right.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:52Speaker 11

  Right.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Okay, well, that is a commonality with English that I think makes it simpler than French.

• 23:59Speaker 11

  So to say "I speak", we say "mi parolas". "I speak", "mi parolas". "Mi parolas esperanton". "Cai vi? Ci vi parolas esperanton?"

• 24:12Speaker 02

  So "mi parol...

• 24:15Speaker 11

  Parolas.

• 24:15Speaker 02

  Parolas esperanton". And that's an "on". Is that the ending for a noun?

• 24:22Speaker 11

  "O" is the ending for a noun, and we add the "n" because it's a direct object.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  So Zamenhof originally wrote up 16 rules for the language, a couple of which you just heard. Nouns end in "o", direct objects in "n", and every word is phonetic. He also compiled 900 roots, derived mostly from Romance languages, which Esperantists then built into a rich vocabulary.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  Users have taken these roots, which are very flexible, and made words for new occasions, for new moments, for new technologies.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Esther Shore, Princeton Esperanto scholar again.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  So for example, the word for a cellphone is "poshtelefono", it's a pocket phone. The word for a smartphone is "lertafono", a smartphone, literally. But I know an Esperantist who refers to his smartphone as "croncerbo", which means "a spare brain". So there's a lot of wit, there's a lot of invention, there's a lot of play involved in coining words.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Duncan Charters also argues that Esperanto, in addition to being efficient and inventive, can serve as a gateway language.

• 25:31Speaker 09

  The good thing about it is, once someone gets into a language that has enabled them to communicate with people around the world... They then want to learn other languages. It's sort of a natural consequence. And for me, then, it's not so much of an effort and a struggle to get students interested. It becomes more natural. Just as in Europe, people much more naturally learn other languages. It's because they've had a practical experience with the ones that they've learned.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  Okay, but practical experience? How does that work if esperantists may not even be able to find other people nearby to speak the language?

• 26:06Speaker 01

  There is a system called Pasport Aservo, which is, means passport service. And it's a network of esperantists who agree to host visiting esperantists, usually young people, for up to three nights free of charge. And there's an enormous degree of trust in this esperanto world. And the word on the street is you arrive and someone hands you their car keys and goes to work.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  As it turns out, esperantists were practicing couch surfing before it became a thing. Pasport Aservo started in 1974 as a small print booklet listing 39 hosts. It's since moved online, and the latest edition contains 974 hosts from 81 countries. Again and again, I'd hear these stories from esperantists who had traveled all over the world.

• 26:56Speaker 06

  I don't know if you realize that almost in every country, there's Esperanto club. And it has been happening since like 130 years. And if you like the word, then it's your oyster.

• 27:12Speaker 05

  I got to know what is living inside a Japanese family is for two months. Talk to them and eat their food and go with them to places.

• 27:22Speaker 09

  I've traveled quite a bit in Spanish-speaking countries using Esperanto contacts. And I've always found that those are the ones that really get me into the culture more.

• 27:30Speaker 12

  I went to Kazakhstan this past year. This guy and his friend, Yatslav, and his friend drove me 300 kilometers in a whole day touring some ancient historical sites. And that was pretty amazing.

• 27:44Speaker 05

  I have been to so many places, met so many people, have so many friends with which I feel at home, always contacting esperantists everywhere. Yes, I have satisfied whatever curiosity of the islander, pigeon of the sea, has been satisfied.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Do you feel like the Esperantists are exceptionally helpful and have that kind of bond with you because it's a niche community that you select into as opposed to English being just more common?

• 28:18Speaker 10

  So I think that definitely helps.

• 28:21Speaker 02

  That's Christopher Johnson, a 29-year-old software engineer from North Carolina.

• 28:25Speaker 10

  It almost takes a naive idealism to believe in Esperanto, or at least in that idea that you can make the world a better place by speaking a language. If you're dedicated enough to learn this language and spend your time on it, you have to have that similar idealism. We have to have things in common. The other nice thing is there's no real Esperanto land where you can go, so I don't think I would have ever met somebody from Cuba without Esperanto. But it just naturally happened because you start meeting people in this small community and people come from all over the world to kind of visit these things.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I guess I'm curious about how you kind of think through the tension between what seems to be this kind of transcendent, you know, international aspect that reaches out and is very open to people and, you know, attracting more people to Esperanto, and the potential that if it actually continued spreading, that you wouldn't actually have that kind of, you know, sweet community anymore.

• 29:31Speaker 05

  Sharp, sharp question. And I do understand that if Esperanto begins to become much larger in society, that some of the selling points of today will vanish.

• 29:47Speaker 10

  Yes, I would not give my car keys to everyone. If Esperanto were to become a universal language, I think the negatives would be that things like this would die. The Londo Congresso, and why would people want to travel miles and miles to meet other Esperantists if you can easily find them everywhere?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  I found it fascinating that even this most idealistic language could be as much a boundary as a bridge, and that its ability to bridge might even require boundaries to create social trust between Esperantists. But then again, if Esperanto has survived through self-selection decade after decade into this paradoxically idealistic and pragmatic language, then maybe its universality could only result from a world in which people universally chose to become idealistic and pragmatic. And who knows? Maybe in that world, we could trust strangers with our home and car keys.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  And the strength of Esperanto is not in numbers. The strength of Esperanto is in its continuity over 130 years, without being passed down from generation to generation, without having money, without having armies. And there it is. It's really remarkably beautiful.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  For now, despite stirrings of excitement about the uptick of Esperanto, very few in the community really believe that the day Zamenhof dreamed of, la fina venco, or the final victory, will be coming any time in the near future. But in the meantime, those who learn it today have created a quirky, Brigadoon-ish family of visionaries. And for all its unworldliness, Esperanto is considered the world's most successful invented language. Still, in some ways, the story of Esperanto teaches us as much about what makes a language fail as succeed. The power of, well, power and politics and economics.

• 31:53Speaker 13

  The cases where someone has actually tried to construct a fair and ostensibly neutral form, things like Esperanto are widely treated as ridiculous or implausible.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  That's Michael Gordon, a historian at Princeton University. He's studied the brief use of Esperanto for scientific communication in the early 1900s.

• 32:17Speaker 13

  So even those people who try to come up with something calmer and kinder don't often get rewards commensurate with that.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  But it also, perhaps, raises some questions about our world. What does it say about us that we find a language that combines peace and pragmatism ridiculous or implausible?

• 32:38Speaker 02

  And could it be that idealism just might be rational?

• 32:42Speaker 05

  The world, humankind, does not act very rationally. I teach chemistry, as I said, and I tell my students, you know, if people were rational, don't you think that we should have long before adopted general international system of units everywhere? Well, but we don't. We still measure things in gallons and yards and feet. So in that sense, it might not be in a short term that Esperanto, that is a rational solution for international communication, becomes like the language of choice. But the important thing, and what I always consider to be the goal of the movement, is

• 33:25Speaker 05

  keep it alive, keep it functioning, keep it suitable for expression of everything the human has to express. Because maybe, I don't know when, but when and if mankind finds itself ready for it, we need to have it alive. We need to have it ready. You can say, oh, now we're going to create it. No, no, no. Here it is. Take it. It's yours.

• 33:57Stephen J. Dubner?

  That was Stephanie Tam reporting from the curiously pragmatic and idealistic world of modern day Esperanto.

• 34:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by WNYC Studios and Dubner Productions. This episode was produced by Stephanie Tam. Our staff also includes Alison Hockenberry, Merritt Jacob, Greg Rosalsky, Eliza Lambert, Emma Morgenstern, Harry Huggins, and Brian Gutierrez. The music you heard throughout this episode was composed by Luis Guerra. Very special thanks to our intern Kent McDonald and all those at the Esperanto Congress who assisted our efforts, including Derek Roth, Lee Miller, and Chuck Mays. You can subscribe to Freakonomics Radio on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. You should also check out our archive at Freakonomics.com, where you can stream or download every episode we've ever made. You can also read the transcripts and find links to the underlying research.

• 34:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  We can also be found on Twitter, Facebook, or via email at [email protected]. Thanks for listening.

• 35:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by EverPure. Is the value of AI not living up to the promise? The problem is probably your data, not your AI models. When it's scattered across different systems, getting your data AI-ready is a challenge. You keep your AI waiting and everything slows down. EverPure unifies your data so you can see it, understand it, and control it all from one simple place and get it AI-ready fast. Unlock the true value of your AI at everpuredata.com.

• 35:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Ozempic. Innovation happens through rethinking what's possible. And when it comes to GLP-1s, Ozempic pill does just that. Learn more about Ozempic semaglutide tablets, 4 in 9mg, by calling 1-833-OZEMPIC or visit ozempic.com to view the medication guide and ask your doctor what's possible with FDA-approved Ozempic pill.

• 36:27Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings. You know, US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings are bank accounts that work harder for you. You get better savings rates, fee waivers, and rewards from day one, so you spend less time worrying about money and more on what matters. Sign up for US Bank Smartly Checking and Savings today at usbank.com/smartly. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026 US Bank.

• 36:58Speaker 14

  This episode is brought to you by Charles Schwab. Is there a right time to sell a stock? Are you taking the right risks with your portfolio? Financial decisions can be tricky, and often your own cognitive and emotional biases can lead you astray. Financial Decoder, an original podcast from Charles Schwab, can help. Join host Mark Reapy as he offers practical solutions to help overcome the cognitive and emotional biases that may affect your investing decisions. Listen at schwab.com/financialdecoder.