New first-time buyer ISA: what happens to the LISA & Help to Buy ISA? Is AI good for consumers?

Martin Lewis explains what we know about the product set to replace the Lifetime ISA, and what could happen to your LISAs and Help to Buy ISAs. Plus, Martin asks you if you think AI is good for consumers, you tell us when you’ve felt financially burned by a firm or product provider, because you took your eye off the ball, and does Adrian finally get a Money Mastermind question right? This week’s is on Section 75 protection, and you’ll have to listen to find out! If you want to ask Martin a question, you can! His Question Time podcast lets you ask Martin absolutely anything and everything (within reason!). So, if you’ve always wanted to know his best dance move, if he’s scared of snakes, or have a very complicated question about your finances, email it to [email protected] mailto:[email protected].

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:06Speaker 01

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• 1:48Martin Lewis?

  The new product will be only a first-time buyer's product. It will eventually replace the lifetime ice cream.

• 1:54Speaker 03

  I need to buy a new vacuum cleaner for my family home.

• 1:57Martin Lewis?

  What is going to happen to jobs?

• 1:58Speaker 03

  That'll teach them. I'll bring them to their knees.

• 2:00Martin Lewis?

  I think in the future, we may get to specific source AI. Hello, I'm Martin Lewis, and this is the cunningly named The Martin Lewis Podcast. I do wonder what that's gonna be. Now, usually, much of it comes from my BBC Radio Five live show with Adrian Childs, but there's also bonus money-saving tips just for you lucky, lucky podcast listeners. In today's pod, we now know the government is going to launch a new first-time-buy-a-savings product to replace the lifetime ISA and the Help-to-buy ISA. We'll explore what that means, especially for those already with money in LISAs and Help-to-buy. Is large language AI like ChatGPT and Gemini good or bad for consumers? I give you my view, you give me your view, and AI gives its view too.

• 2:43Martin Lewis?

  The Tellers is all about when you felt financially burned by a thermal product provider because you took your eye off the ball. Inspired by Adrian's nightmare breakdown cover overpayment. And this week's Money Mastermind is on credit card protection. How well do you know your section 75? Play the theme tune.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  How many steps you done today, Martin? Have you walked in?

• 3:21Martin Lewis?

  I mean, I always walk in. Yeah, I'm not on that many. What am I on, 11,200?

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Oh, you've let yourself go.

• 3:26Martin Lewis?

  Just a halfway through. But in the sort of colloquial, a funny thing did happen to me on the way in.

• 3:32Speaker 03

  Oh, OK.

• 3:33Martin Lewis?

  I was walking to the entrance of the BBC, and there's a rather softly-spoken man out there, probably a little bit older than me, who was asking everybody, including me, as we walk in. And he said it very softly, "Excuse me, would you like a poem?" And I thought, what a lovely thing, although, obviously, I was rushing in because I had a show to do. So I said, "No, I'm so, I can't at the moment. Would you like a poem?"

• 3:56Speaker 03

  What does he mean? To buy one off him?

• 3:58Martin Lewis?

  No, I think he wanted to hear him recite a poem. And it did then occur to me, I did smile to myself in the list, imagining if I'd said yes and he'd gone, "There was a young lady from..."

• 4:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Or, I mean, I'd just say, well, how long? That would be my first question then. If it's a couple of standards.

• 4:17Martin Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  That stands.

• 4:19Martin Lewis?

  I don't want standards. I want original.

• 4:21Speaker 03

  Well, a couple, I can just, a couple, I can deal with that, but I can't get into some long epic thing.

• 4:27Martin Lewis?

  No, I know, no.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  Work in the morning.

• 4:29Martin Lewis?

  No, nobody wants the Odyssey, do they? Could you imagine? Yeah, what is it? He starts Beowulf.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 4:36Martin Lewis?

  I've got a show to do. What are you talking about?

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 4:38Martin Lewis?

  But I did, it did make me wonder if anybody out there has a small poem, no AI-generated ones allowed, about this show and Adrian and myself, you're welcome to send it in and it may be read out as long as it's flattering to me and insult, as long as it's fine.

• 4:53Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  AI then. I think your idea on is it useful for consumers is slightly different to mine. And we've got different angles on this, but go on, tell us yours.

• 5:08Martin Lewis?

  I've just been asked this a few times. It started the other day, someone asked to my show and we didn't manage to get it in, whether you'll still be able to haggle once everything's an AI chatbot. And my presumption on that is you probably still would be able to haggle because ultimately the discretionary pricing model that happens on customer retentions, in other words, when you ask to leave, you get put through to a department whose job is to retain you. Well, the AI will still have that remit, so it will be able to give you better prices. And I would think it would. But then it's a bigger picture here. Is AI good or bad for consumers? Now, for me, I think it is currently positive. There are navigation issues. You have to know how to prompt it properly. You have to understand the risk of hallucination. You have to be able to fact check yourself.

• 5:53Martin Lewis?

  I don't think it's as good as delving into prices. It can't do locked in areas and get you proper quotes on things that are commoditized, you know, like insurance, where the price depends on the individual. I mean, I have many worries about it too currently. I think there is a huge danger of it denying primary research. And if I can be someone, you know, as someone who runs a very big website where we do lots of primary research, which is then read by AI and regurgitated on its website, so it gets the traffic, we don't get the traffic. And lots of models out there. The AI will be sucking up other people's information, regurgitating it. And therefore, once those business models start to wilt because they aren't getting traffic or not anymore. Who's going to be doing the primary research?

• 6:36Martin Lewis?

  I think the biggest, I mean, there's risks of frauds and deliberate manipulation. And we're talking here, large language AI, you know, your ChatGPT, your Gemini, your Grok and others. But I mean, the biggest risk for me, though, and I think it mirrors the internet and it mirrors Google especially. Is it starts off as it is right now in this purest, you ask a question. You get an answer based on all that information without it being overly directed. Some would argue with Grok, it is somewhat directed in a political sense, but in a consumer sense. But there is almost certainly with the enormous hundreds of billions of pounds of investment that have gone into building these platforms and the infrastructure. And the huge amount of energy that they're using, when they're not actually generating that much money at the moment, there will be a commercialization.

• 7:19Martin Lewis?

  And at some point, our answers are going to be bastardized into giving the commercial answers that will come in future. Rather than being a more neutral base. And so for me at the moment, in these early pioneering days of AI. I think it is a positive force for good, but I do have questions where it will go. Once the money has to be recouped back and they're going to have to start to tweak the answers in order to direct to revenue raising areas.

• 7:47Speaker 03

  That's exactly my point. So it's a test, right? I put in earlier into one of the large language models. I need to buy a new vacuum cleaner for my family home. What do you recommend? I live in the UK. And there's, I won't go into which ones, there's a very, there's a very definite winner. Best overall choice. Now, I go to, then I looked at which, who, you know, we to believe them do do extensive testing on these things. And the particular model recommended by ChatGPT. Doesn't feature anywhere in their best buys at all, as far as I can see on which. So. I don't what what do I what do I what do I make of that? What use is it? Not that which have got the answer to everything, but.

• 8:33Martin Lewis?

  Well, and which might not be up to date. And there's some other great websites out. There's some great American websites for reviewing tech, actually, which do it on an impartial basis as well, which tend to have a broader range than which, although which is very good. I I think the problem with reviewing stuff like that is you'll know if you do a search on the internet that you will get lots of the ten top best X, whatever you put in.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  Which are a nonsense, which are a nonsense. I mean, no testing's gone into that.

• 8:55Martin Lewis?

  And they are algorithm based, commercially written things in order to drive affiliate link traffic with no research and and, you know. And and that's what they are. But the problem is, large language models are reading them as well as reading the other places. So.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  Okay, but if they're so okay, if they're so intelligent, then they should be able to do better than that.

• 9:12Martin Lewis?

  Well, they should be, but they're not that intelligent. What they are is they they are, they are, you know, regurgitating what's out there and trying to filter it. Now, it's interesting because I think in talk, you know, in talk about what what we do in response, and what Money Saving Expert, if I'm allowed to say it in this context, does in response in the future to AI. I things having spoken to AI providers, I think where we may go in the future is a bit like the Alexa model. So you know, when you have an Alexa, you can download specific apps on Alexa and you can ask that app the question, and that's by a different provider. It's not provided by Alexa itself. I think in the future, we may get to specific source AI so that you're within ChatGPT, but you say to it.

• 9:50Martin Lewis?

  You know, I would like to know the Adrian Childs answer coming from the Adrian Childs app, which has got all the Adrian Childs information so that what I have is I have. A a while it's a large language model, it's narrow based on just the answers that Adrian has researched.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  My app will be, look, just ask Martin. I'll just redirect straight to you.

• 10:10Martin Lewis?

  I I was trying not to not to say, give us the Money Saving Expert answer, which is of course what we're looking at doing, so that you will be able to use your chat model. But you know that the answer is derivated from that source. But then we how how would you integrate it? Would you be able to select that? I mean, already we've just found Google has just done something where you can select your primary search sources for different types of information. And and I think this may be the way that we go forward. And that's partly answers a commercial question. So companies will be able to advertise, use our version of what is going on on these large language model AI. And but a- and it partially will mean at least you know what the source of the information is.

• 10:50Martin Lewis?

  But we can't, you know, all it is doing is it's a bit like saying you're asking everybody in every pub in Britain for an answer. And would you trust that answer? Well, actually, sometimes the mass answer gives you a really good indication. And chat GPT can be great for writing stuff for you, and it can actually be pretty good for fact checking, as long as you do the final fact check yourself. And you have to learn how to ask it. You know, I did something and we'll be doing a special pod on Plan Two Student Finance that we'll be putting out tomorrow. And in my guide to that, I wrote an AI prompt for a calculator to work out whether you're likely to clear the loan in thirty years or not, and I worked hard on it. And then it's a cut and paste, it's an incredible thing to be able to do. Instead of building a calculator, write the prompts correctly and then put it into AI and it can do it for you. So.

• 11:34Martin Lewis?

  It's much quicker, but then you've got all, you have all the risks of information not working. We've got things, people have written in on this, haven't they?

• 11:40Speaker 03

  Yes, they have. I mean, Karshing Ho had decent experience using AI for consumer aid stuff. Said good for drafting letters for formal complaints, using AI chatbots to get answers on marketing promotions, T and Cs, et cetera. Well, interesting. Good experience for me personally so far, though I'm sure big business, big business will find a way to ruin it eventually.

• 12:05Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, well, which I think is pretty much where we're going. Now, let me give you the answer. I had, I had someone coming called Gemini. Called Google Gemini, who I asked, gave sixty words to answer this, and it was quite similar to chat GPT, so I won't read both. This is the Gemini answer. Large language models offer consumers a double-edged sword. On the positive side, they provide twenty-four seven personalised assistance. Breaking language barriers and streamlining complex tests like research or coding. Conversely, they risk spreading misinformation, compromising data privacy. And potentially displacing jobs, leading to widespread public anxiety about their net social impact. So relatively balanced.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Okay, on Grok, can you do this one in my accent, please? Because it just. Makes me laugh.

• 12:47Martin Lewis?

  Okay.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  When you do.

• 12:48Martin Lewis?

  Grok, large langu-, hold, I've gone wrong, West Brom. Uh, large language AI is likely net good for consumers as it develops. It delivers personalized services, boosts productivity, enhances education access to knowledge, improves shopping experiences and automates tedious tasks, driving convenience and value. Risks like misinformation, privacy, I've gone, gone Scouse.

• 13:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:11Martin Lewis?

  Privacy issues, biases and higher education energy costs uh, exist but can be mitigated through regulation improvements. I thought what was interesting with Grok, Grok came out of the end and said overall benefits outweigh harms for most users. So Grok put the spin on, uh, which the others didn't. What, what are real people saying other than these AIs?

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Um, Carol Welbury, AI good as a starting point to gather information and he's checking out before going ahead with anything, which is absolutely, absolutely bang on. Um, Hale, he says, don't like it. It's been used by my doorbell. It wasn't until I clicked on what's on my new app that I even knew they were using it. It had been turned on by them without my permission. Should have been a choice made by me. I'm not, I've, I've never had one of those bells and I, I don't quite understand what, where AI would come into that.

• 14:00Martin Lewis?

  Well, it could be detecting who it is and what to do and whether to notify you or anything else like that. I'm not quite sure. I think it's interesting here because this question was about large language AI models. And I think people, AI has been around, you know, a long time, 10, 15 years, built into various products and selective and given choice and learning from it. The large language models, that's specifically your chat GPT, your Gemini, your Groks of this world that we can talk and interact with. And that's what started everybody really understanding how AI worked. But it is just, that is just one arm of what's going on with the much wider AI that's out there in the world. And AI has been used in the background of many algorithm and computations in the financial world for years before these large language models came on track.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  James Lowes says he had a problem with the company trying to charge him for a return, fed all the info to AI and got back the responses to send citing consumer law and the company backed down straight away.

• 14:58Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, I mean, and it can be really useful for that type of stuff as long as it's, you just have to keep pushing back that has it got the correct law and it can double take. I mean, I've used it, interestingly, I remember I wrote something on capital gains and the capital gains tax allowance and I have the capital gains tax allowance and I can find it useful. I say, just give me a detailed fact check and it comes back and then I always check if it's picking up on what I've said is wrong, that it is right. And it had the capital gains tax allowance completely wrong. I was right, it was wrong, it told me I was wrong and I said to it, you go and double check, that is not correct. Capital gains tax is not £12,000, that changed three years ago. And it came back, said, yes, it is. I said, please, and I asked it to go into a detailed, deep thinking mode and it came back and said, oh, yes, you're right. And the reason I got it wrong was, that's

• 15:41Martin Lewis?

  the danger. That's why you need to know trusted source and it needs to be up to date. So I think all of those issues are in that.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  Can I tell you one more that strikes me with James? Where he said, so he fed all the AI in and it gave him the responses to send citing consumer law. Where this will go in the end, whoever he's complaining to, well, sooner or later, then, not that they're not using AI already, they'll look at his response, which they'll see is, which their AI will see is generated by James's AI, and then it'll end up a battle between two lots of AIs.

• 16:17Martin Lewis?

  Well, it will both be a battle, but it will also cut down the processing and time it takes for everybody, which in the end, hopefully, that's what they talk about, the productivity gain. Because if that conversation was going to happen anyway, and you would have had to spend two hours writing it and they would have had to spend, pay someone for two hours responding to it, you know, if it just takes five minutes for both on an AI and you get to the same result, well, you've saved everybody some time. The big issue is the impact of AI on jobs, of course, especially the sort of professional classes, which I think is the great unresolved dilemma. That's not what we're here to talk about today.

• 16:47Speaker 03

  No.

• 16:47Martin Lewis?

  But the great unresolved dilemma, when we hear governments talking about bringing AI and incorporating AI for efficiency and everywhere, is what is going to happen to jobs and what are we going to do for the way that it changes the fabric of our society?

• 17:02Speaker 03

  Let's move on to the replacement for the lifetime ISA. I mean, we've known this is coming for a while. We've got some detail here, I think now. So it's going back a bit. What was the lifetime? What is it at the moment, which it soon isn't going to be?

• 17:15Martin Lewis?

  So there are two products that are out there that give first time buyers a 25% boost on money you've saved in them. The original one was the Help to Buy ISA. Then that was replaced by the lifetime ISA. But those who had a Help to Buy ISA were able to keep it open. And there are many people who still have their Help to Buy ISAs active now, waiting to buy their first home. The lifetime ISA was a more complicated product that you could put more money, that you can put more money in each year. So you can no longer open a Help to Buy ISA. It's only if you already have it open, you can still open a lifetime ISA. It's age limited, so you have to be between aged 18 and 40 to open it. You can put up to £4,000 a year in. And then you get a 25% bonus that can be used towards buying your first property,

• 17:59Martin Lewis?

  as long as the property price is under £450,000, or for retirement saving at age 60. And the lifetime ISA can either be a savings lifetime ISA or an investment lifetime ISA, unlike the Help to Buy, which was a savings only product. So that is what is in place at the moment. There are many complexities, including a withdrawal penalty on the lifetime ISA. If you take money out because you're not buying a qualifying house, that's one under £450,000, or you're not buying, you're not taking it out in retirement. And that is now, you know, the Chancellor announced in the last budget, she wanted to replace it. What we have now learnt is that the new product will definitely, well, there will be a consultation, but almost certainly definitely,

• 18:44Martin Lewis?

  be only a first time buyer's product. It will not be allowing retirement savings. It will eventually replace the lifetime ISA, just like the lifetime ISA replaced the Help to Buy ISA. And it's very likely it's going to be quite similar in some ways to the old Help to Buy ISA in the way that it works. So that's what we know. There's a lot we don't know. There's a lot that will come out in consultation and is in discussion.

• 19:10Speaker 03

  Samantha Thompson, is it still worth opening one with just one pound, which is something you've advised?

• 19:18Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, so I think what is worth me saying, the reason I'm discussing it now when I've started by saying that we've only got scant information on it. Is because it really does impact your attitude to your existing Help to Buy ISA or your lifetime ISA or whether you should open one or not. Because we know the change is coming and it's very likely that her lifetime ISA is going to move at some point before 2030 to becoming a dead product like the Help to Buy ISA is a dead product. In other words, you'll get less competitive rates on it and existing providers will not be taking as much care to try and offer you to attract you and to keep your custom in. So the first question, what was that? Sorry, Adrian.

• 19:56Speaker 03

  Is it still worth opening one with a pound?

• 19:59Martin Lewis?

  Yes, so I've always suggested opening one with a pound. I had one long-term reason and I have a much more recent reason. So let's do the long-term reason. The lifetime ISA can only be used as a bonus for first-time buyers if it has been opened for a year. So if you are able to have a lifetime ISA and you are a first-time buyer, which means someone who has never bought a property anywhere, never bought or owned a property anywhere in the world before, that's the definition. Then my suggestion is you put a pound in so that you get the clock ticking. So that if in a year's time you did want to buy a house for the first time, then you could instantly put four grand in. You'd get a one thousand pound bonus and that could be used for your deposit.

• 20:42Martin Lewis?

  But if you decided that without having the pound in, you couldn't do it because it hasn't been open for a year. So the pound is to get the clock ticking. I should note the risk, the risk of the pound for everyone is that you would decide it's not going to work for you and you want to take it out, you're going to pay a 6% penalty. So there's a sixpence risk here and you need to be aware of that, but I think it's worth putting a pound in in that case. The second reason for putting a pound in. It is a newer one, and that's that the lifetime ISA offers you the ability to save towards when you're 60. We'll call it retirement type savings, older age savings, that you don't get elsewhere and you get this 25% boost on it. Now, generally, a pension is a better product, especially an employee pension, where the company will match pension contributions

• 21:27Martin Lewis?

  with you than the lifetime ISA for most people. But the LISA is an interesting second facility. Now, we don't know what will happen to the pension savings element of the lifetime ISA once we have this new product in. But my view would be so that you have a chance at keeping that facility open to use it towards retirement savings if it's right for you, even if it's not right for you now, in case it becomes right for you in future. Well, I would get a pound into a lifetime ISA, even if I'd already bought my first home, just so I had the potential to have that facility open in future in case I wanted it. Do you see what I mean?

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:06Martin Lewis?

  I'm not saying you will want it. I'm not saying it'll be worthwhile. I'm saying it's worth putting a quid in, in case you're allowed to use it in future and in case it does become a good option for you, so that you have that potential facility available to you. Because certainly by, well, I'll say 2030, possibly sooner than that, you won't be able to open a new lifetime ISA. So you would have lost the chance. And if it were good for you in the future, it would gone. So putting a quid in now, you've got it open, and therefore you may, can't guarantee it, be able to use it in future if it were right to you. So yes, to the pound, is my answer.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Peter wants to know, it's worthwhile waiting for this new product to be launched, or okay to start a LISA now and transfer later. Also need to know if the 450k limit is going to be increased. But there's some don't knows there.

• 22:50Martin Lewis?

  Well, there are some don't knows, but we can do quite a bit of this. So let's start with the 450k limit. The big issue with the £450,000 is that people can save for a first-time property. Property prices can go up in the area that they are in and then they can be priced out. And this especially happens in London and the south-east of England where the average first-time buyer property in many areas is above £450,000. The problem then happens that then to withdraw your money you had saved as the government suggested you do as a first-time buyer in the lifetime ISA, you have to pay the state a penalty. Now, I have long campaigned and met many chancellors on this, that that penalty is unfair for people buying their first-time property and they should therefore, while they don't need

• 23:34Martin Lewis?

  to be given the 25% bonus, they shouldn't have to give 6% of their own savings or effectively 6.25% of their own savings back to the treasury just to get their money out. They should at least get back what they put in plus the interest they earned, but not the bonus. That hasn't happened. The chancellor was thinking about increasing the lifetime ISA property threshold up to somewhere in the £500,000, £600,000, so it would have gone up equivalent to average house price rises since 2017 when it was introduced. She decided to launch this new product instead. When I interviewed her on my show about this, she said they would include in the consultation looking at what happens to lifetime ISAs and the threshold. That is not a commitment to increasing it.

• 24:18Martin Lewis?

  It was, and I have it on tape, a commitment to looking at it within there. So, the £450,000, we don't know. In the consultation submission that my team and I do towards this, we will absolutely be pushing hard for either that to be increased or at least for them to waive the penalty, the effective 6.25% penalty on people buying a house more than £450,000, because that seems unfair. Can you give me the other elements of the question, Adrian?

• 24:45Speaker 03

  Well, can I just start one now and then transfer later? If you have to transfer. I mean, they've got to honour the deal as it stands at the moment, haven't they?

• 24:53Martin Lewis?

  Well, they do. You would think they have to and everything we've seen in the past is the lifetime ISA would still be able to continue in the way that it was running, although it's a very long period, because what you have to understand is it started in 2017. So, and you have to be between aged eighteen and forty to open it. So we were talking someone who is aged thirty nine, the oldest you could possibly be to open it in twenty seventeen is now aged, what, forty eight? And the first time that you can take your money out for retirement savings is aged sixty. So we are still twelve years from the first person being able to use it from retirement, never mind the eighteen year olds who are opening it right now.

• 25:34Martin Lewis?

  So it is a very long term, you know, the issue with the lifetime ISA is if they keep it as a dead product, I mean, some people could still have it in getting on for thirty years from now. And I think that causes a lot of complexity. Now, you asked, will you be allowed to transfer?

• 25:50Martin Lewis?

  That, I believe, is part of the consultation, but the mood music I'm hearing, and please hear it only as mood music, nothing has been decided, is they will probably allow you to transfer from a helped buy ISA into the new product, but they will probably not allow you to transfer from the lifetime ISA into the new product, because the lifetime ISA already has the bonus added and therefore there is a complexity on that. Now, I don't think that's the right way to operate, and I will certainly be saying that even if they don't allow you to transfer a lifetime ISA into the new product, they should allow you to withdraw your money, there should be a period where you can withdraw your money from the ISA without paying the penalty. You might not get the bonus, but you don't pay the penalty. But that is all to play for in the consultation.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  Matthew says, will the twenty five percent bonus still exist for current ISA holders post two thousand and twenty seven? And will that also be in place for the new ISAs?

• 26:46Martin Lewis?

  So I think it would be absolutely outrageous if they stopped the bonus for existing ISA holders, certainly if they stop the bonus without some form of, you know, compensation, as in you can take the money out without a penalty, you can take what you've gone in and we just stop the bonus for future money, something like that. So, but we don't know, and there is no guarantee. I don't see the bonus being stopped in the imminent future. So I think the issue is far more for the retirement people who are still twenty, thirty years away than it is for the people who might want to buy a first time property in the next three or four years with your life. Lifetime ISA, which I think it would be very unlikely that they would stop you getting your 25% bonus on that. Again, I don't know, I'm just giving you supposition based on my experience and conversations I've had, but I don't know. In terms of the new product,

• 27:31Martin Lewis?

  what its bonus will be, that has not been decided, and one of the questions that will be in the consultation, I'm sure, is should they keep the bonus at the same current level? I will be arguing yes, I think 25% is a good incentive level, it's worked on the Help to Buy ISA and the Lifetime ISA, and if they want to make it attractive, it needs to be of that type of scale. But that has not been decided yet.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  Apologies if I've missed this, Martin, but just remind us why it needs changing, or at least why they think it needs changing. Why mess with it? I mean, they messed with it once already.

• 27:59Martin Lewis?

  Well, it was George Osborne who introduced a Lifetime ISA to replace the Help to Buy ISA. The Help to Buy ISA is a relatively simple product. It had some flaws in it. The biggest flaw is that you got the money at exchange, sorry, you got the money at completion rather than exchange, which meant it couldn't be used towards your house deposit. The Lifetime ISA fixed that. But the Lifetime ISA was George Osborne trying a bit of financial engineering, because effectively, in government accounting, if people save for their retirement in a Lifetime ISA, it sort of defers the cost to the state until much later on. Whereas when people save in a pension, it's the current Chancellor who's sort of dealing with some of those costs. If I remember rightly, not my side, it's the economics of it. So Osborne

• 28:41Martin Lewis?

  was experimenting with this by trying to shift the way that people save for retirement. The problem happened with the Lifetime ISA is that, especially with auto-enrollment, which is where most people are automatically enrolled into a workplace pension, where the workplace has to contribute as well, the Lifetime ISA is nowhere near as good as a workplace pension for most people. And the big banks, the high street banks, were so scared of being done for misselling, that they just, most of them don't offer Lifetime ISAs. So most Lifetime ISA providers tend to be small fintech providers, not the big banks, because they simply won't get on board, because they're like, all that's going to happen is, people are going to put money into their pensions on it, and then we're going to get done later for misselling it, because it wasn't the right place for them to put their retirement savings into.

• 29:27Martin Lewis?

  And so it has been riddled with these issues and there's issues that you put money into a lifetime ISA, it counts towards your universal credit allowance of the £6,000 that you're allowed to have in savings, whereas it wouldn't do if you put it into a pension, so it isn't as good in that way. And the withdrawal penalty has been a nightmare for people in London and the south east of England. I mean, I gave evidence to a Commons Committee on this. There are some good things in the lifetime ISA that I like, but there are some bad things too. And I think Rachel Reeves decided, well, first of all, the whole retirement savings thing isn't something that she's interested in and doesn't think she should work, it should be focused on a pension. But we don't want to take it away from first time buyers, so why don't we just simplify it and go back to a first time buyers product?

• 30:08Martin Lewis?

  So I think what we're likely to see, supposition, guesswork, people, please, you know, don't come back to me in two years' time and say, you said there. What we're likely to see, it's my guess would be, it will be a product that you can put a lump sum in, you will then not get the bonus added as you currently do with a lifetime ISA each month. So what happens with a lifetime ISA is when you put new money in, you get the 25% then, so you see it in your account. The bonus will not be added until you get to exchange, so they will do it to exchange as a lifetime ISA does, and then you will get probably 25%. It will only be for first time buyers. There will probably be a cap on house prices, but there won't be a withdrawal penalty. So when the new product, you'll be able, if you put money

• 30:53Martin Lewis?

  in and you're not going to use it for buying your first time house, you'll be able to take it out and get your interest and there won't be any withdrawal penalty. So I think that's the way it is most likely to work. Now, one of the problems with that is one of the advantages of the lifetime ISA in terms of encouraging people to save in it, is you poured £1,000 in and then instantly you see you've got £1,250 quid. Within the Help to Buy ISA, you put £1,000 in, or you actually put money in by the month, and I would think that the new product will be a lump sum product, so you have a yearly limit, not a monthly limit like they do with the Help to Buy ISA. But you put your money in the new product, you put £1,000 in and you've got £1,000 in your interest, you don't see the 25%. So I suspect what they will probably

• 31:36Martin Lewis?

  Get firms to do who are providing this, and remember it's likely to be only savings providers, not investment providers, who are going to be offering the help to buy ISA. That's a guess, but I think that's how it'll work, is they will then put a note at the bottom, with your 25% bonus, once you exchange, this will be worth X. So that they keep that sort of behavioural push economics factor in there, and it'll be how they mandate them to put that in their statements. So that's what I think we're likely to see, and those are the problems it's solving. Does, I'm not saying I agree with all of that, but does it, does it make sense to you what I said?

• 32:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:09Martin Lewis?

  Good.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  Martin, rumour is, this is the question, I like you, rumour is the 25% bonus won't be paid monthly on the new product, but instead at a time of house purchase. Is it therefore better to open a lease to benefit your investment growth on the 25%?

• 32:25Martin Lewis?

  Very smart question.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  It's so smart, it's gone right over my head, you'll have to talk me through it.

• 32:31Martin Lewis?

  Okay, so the first thing I'd say, so what he's saying is, let, let's take a thousand pounds, just as a sum, and we'll get rid of, I'm just going to make it simple.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:40Martin Lewis?

  I put a thousand pounds in a help to buy ISA, and probably into this new product. I then get interest on the thousand pounds, and that interest grows, and if I never put any more in, and I left it five years, I'd have five years' interest on my thousand pounds, tax-free, just like I would in a normal cash ISA. Then, when it comes to buying a property, the state looks at how much I put in, they don't look at the interest, by the way, they just look at how much you put in, whether that'll be the same in the new product, I don't know, and they say, you put a thousand pounds in, so we'll give you 25% of that, so you have £1,250 plus the interest you earned on the thousand pounds over the five years, and that's how much you will get towards your deposit.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  Right, yeah.

• 33:21Martin Lewis?

  Okay? In the lifetime ISA, I put a thousand pounds in, I, within a month, have the £250 bonus, so I've now got £1,250. I now get interest on the £1,250, not on the thousand pounds, and I get that interest over five years, because it will compound. So the amount that I would have in, if the interest rates were the same in the two, means I would have more in the lifetime ISA, because I've got the compound interest on £1,250, not on a thousand pounds. Did that make sense?

• 34:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 34:01Martin Lewis?

  Because of when, because you get the bonus earlier and you get interest on the bonus. So what this question is asking is, the answer to your question is, yes, that would be better, but there's a baboon, a big but. The new product, you won't be able to invest in anyway, it will only be savings. And the lifetime ISA, everything else remaining equal, and we don't know, we don't know, you might be able to put more in this new product, you might be able to use it for a bigger house, you know, there are lots of ifs and buts, I can't give you a direct correlation, but you are right, the way, from what I'm hearing at the moment, in the new product, you won't get the compounding of interest on your bonus, or in an investment product, you won't get

• 34:44Martin Lewis?

  the, you know, the equivalent of compounding in terms of reinvesting dividends or whatever you're doing with that, in the new product that you would get in the lifetime ISA because of the way the bonus is structured. But whether that is enough to override the problems with the lifetime ISA compared to the new product, I don't know yet.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 35:00Martin Lewis?

  Good question, though.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Do you want to do one more?

• 35:02Martin Lewis?

  Sure, yeah, let's do one more.

• 35:04Speaker 03

  Do one more, okay. Susie's got an existing lease that I'm still adding to with a plan to buy in 2028. How will I know if it's better to stick with my lease up, assuming that's an option, or move to the new scheme? And will the 25% government bonus still be available?

• 35:23Martin Lewis?

  Well, we just don't know if you'll be allowed to move to the new scheme, I think that's a big question for lifetime ISA providers. My guess, by the way, is this new product, I said yesterday on social, 2027, I'm now hearing pushback that it's probably more likely to come in in April 2028, which means the lifetime ISA will be active until then and working almost certainly exactly as it does right now until then. So if the lifetime ISA is right for you now, if you're going to be buying a house under £450,000, and you're going to be buying it by 2028, and you've got your money in, I would continue doing exactly what you're doing right now, because that will work for you anyway. If it might be marginally better and you're allowed to transfer once we know to the new product, then great, and we'll discuss that at a future point when we know.

• 36:07Martin Lewis?

  But I do think it's very unlikely for first time buyers buying in 2028, we will see any significant change to the way the lifetime ISA works for you. So the only, and again, there's some guesswork here, so the only thing I could say is, keep doing what you're doing, if it's right for you now, and you're going to be buying before 2028, it's probably still right for you, and this announcement doesn't change that.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  Should we move on to tell us? Well, this is sort of my tell us.

• 36:32Martin Lewis?

  It was your tell us. Shall I say what it was and then you tell us why?

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Okay, go on.

• 36:36Martin Lewis?

  So Adrian WhatsApp me to tell me something and to suggest doing a tell us on the back. The official tell us is, what's the most you felt financially burned by a firm or product provider because you took your eye off the ball? And as you'll probably understand, this happened to you, didn't it Adrian?

• 36:52Speaker 03

  Yes, it's quite a simple one when I've been auto renewing with a well-known car breakdown provider. And I, I thought I've got to get to grip, got a grip with this because it auto renews in January each year. And so in December I started looking at and I realised, well, I was paying 550 quid a year. And if, as far as I could see, if I went as a new customer, it'd be somewhere between 100 and 150. So the first thing I did, I went on, which again, I never wanted to do business with them again ever then.

• 37:32Martin Lewis?

  Fair.

• 37:33Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:33Martin Lewis?

  I can see why you felt burned.

• 37:35Speaker 03

  Okay, I felt burnt. Now, I then said, well, first thing I'll do is cancel that auto renew. So I go in, there's a tick box. I had to, I had to sort of go to Google or Chat GPT or something to find out how to do it. But then there is a tick box buried on the website, went to tick it, i.e. or untick it, the auto renew. No, you have to call us to do this. So then I call 10, 15 minute waiting time.

• 38:01Martin Lewis?

  Can I just check, when you originally signed up, did you sign up online?

• 38:04Speaker 03

  I can't remember.

• 38:05Martin Lewis?

  Because I have this big issue, I think, and it's something we're campaigning on. You should always be able to cancel using the same mechanism that you signed up.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:12Martin Lewis?

  But anyway, carry on.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  Okay, well then, you know, then it's a 10, the standard 10, 15 minute wait on the line. During, you know, cynically, you might think they just want me to give up, lose interest and forget all over again. Then finally get hold of somebody and then obviously I'll get given the hard sell. But, and you know, and hey presto, it came down losing a quarter, you know, and down to about a quarter of what I could have paid. But, you know, I am, look, I think you might take the view and others that more fool me. And I'll take that point, I'll take that on the chin. But I take the view, that's just not cricket. That is just not cricket at that level, you know, four times more. That's just wrong and I reserve the right, obviously, they're not having a penny of my money again and that'll teach them.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  I'll bring them to their knees by not renewing, by not using them again.

• 39:03Martin Lewis?

  Just a couple of comments, just as an aside, both Auto Aid and EverSure charge about sixty quid a year for full service breakdown cover, home start, onward travel and breakdown on the site. If you're going with the two or three letter named firms, which you will know what they are, then they both, in our poll on haggling, over eighty percent of people who try and haggle at renewal succeed with both those firms. It's the most haggable sector, you should not be renewing without pushing your price down. And you were paying massively over the odds through what's called price walking, Adrian. Basically where they walk your price up each year, step, step, step, so that eventually you're paying so much more than the existing customer. Whether it should happen or not, in insurance, we have a rule that's sort of banned price walking,

• 39:47Martin Lewis?

  though it doesn't work that effectively because there's lots of ways around it, we've talked about that before. We don't have that rule on breakdown cover. Look, there's an argument here, if you ask me, that as it's you, who is a clever savvy man.

• 40:02Speaker 03

  Not in these matters on that.

• 40:03Martin Lewis?

  Well, you are, you used to present a business programme, you are a victim to other competitive market. But my concern is, if this is you in forty years' time, when you don't have quite the same faculties that you do now, and you're struggling, that then I think then we're starting to, you know, that is taking advantage of people. And it's a difficult one, whether it should be allowed or not, but absolutely we all need, the truth is it is allowed, so you need to protect yourself. Shall I start with some of the ones you have?

• 40:29Speaker 03

  I think daylight is the best disinfectant. I'd like to see somewhere a league table, the naming of shaming, not necessarily of this particular company, I'm not casting a special note because there's a lot to do it, but different companies in different areas, not just breakdown cover, you know, the worst offenders when it comes to this kind of thing.

• 40:48Martin Lewis?

  The way to do that is take the reverse of my poll on haggle success. If you're able to haggle at renewal, that means the price is flexible.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  But I want somebody who's not, who's, when the default position isn't that, I get legged over.

• 41:00Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, but you could still be just legged over, but they just charge everyone the same price. It doesn't work that way. I mean, ultimately, my entire career is about showing you how to do it the cheapest way. And, you know, and that's the information that we provide. And so it is out there. All that info is out there. But the problem is on this, you didn't look.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I kind of did, but it was that it was stacked against me with the, you know, the faff required in just taking out the auto renew. That's what sort of got me.

• 41:29Martin Lewis?

  Yeah. Let's get on to, ADO says, my very unsavvy pensioner mum had car insurance that auto renewed about seven years on the trot, meaning it ended up over eleven hundred quid. Once I discovered, I did a comparison site search, got it for a hundred and ninety seven pounds. I was not happy to say the least and told them so in no uncertain terms.

• 41:52Martin Lewis?

  Well, this is, this is where it becomes a real problem. And that is, that is market abuse.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay. Ian Dudley, took out a thirty year life insurance policy about twenty five years ago when I got married. Over the years, the cover has steadily increased, but so have the premiums. I just let it tick on as I wanted my family to be safe if anything happened to me. After I started to listen to the podcast last year, I had a look on a comparison site and found I could get better cover for about quarter of the price. When I multiply that by however, however many years it's been since it would have been made sense to switch, it must have cost me many thousands.

• 42:25Martin Lewis?

  Huge chunk of life insurance policy costs, especially term insurance is commission. Huge amount of it can be tens of thousands of pounds if it's quite an expensive policy. Jack Alvin, years ago, I needed my boiler replaced and went with the company that serviced our system. They subcontracted to a local guy who would have been fifteen hundred pounds cheaper. I'm still raging.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I mean, Claire used to be a member of a book club. You thought, it's a gentler world this. But years I bought books with them, happily paying the delivery costs. After probably ten years, I decided to cancel my subscription. And when I rang them to cancel, they offered me free delivery from then on to stay with them. After being a regular customer for years without being offered that, I'm still fuming. I'm with you, Claire.

• 43:06Martin Lewis?

  Yeah. Heather. I recently helped, it's another similar one, I recently helped my pensioner family members move away from their provider after we were chatting about a bargain SIM-only deal I got, and I found out they were paying almost £60 a month, wow, £60 a month, £720 a year for their two SIMs, one SIM only had 3GB of data and was almost £30 a month, wow, you can get that for £2, £2 a month, not £30. They carried on paying their direct debits each month, needless to say, I've helped them both switch to another SIM-only provider and now only paying £8 a month for good data usage. Now, everyone, while we're on, just do a simple text, info, I N F O two eight, five

• 43:47Martin Lewis?

  O seven five, I do hope I've got that right, it should be free and you will get back whether you're free to ditch, in most cases, but some people ask for your data, birth ID, in most cases, whether you're free to ditch and switch and move mobile contract provider, and if you are, it's worth going and check out if you can save some money. Shall we do a couple more, one more and then we'll get to Mastermind.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  TV subscriptions, this is, it is a common one, Sora, price gradually increased over four, five years to around £140 a month, we left for a week and rejoined as new customers for £45 a month. Oh God, it annoys me.

• 44:19Martin Lewis?

  That's another one of the very high up the haggle list sectors in the haggle poll that we do, so, which says everything that you need to know. Now, to see if he will say everything that you need to know, let's play the theme tune.

• 44:38Martin Lewis?

  Welcome to Money Mastermind. Adrian, your score stands at 15 correct and 31 incorrect in this three option, multiple choice quiz, which means you're doing

• 44:55Martin Lewis?

  no better than random chance. In fact, and I don't think we've been in this situation before, you are doing worse than random chance, I don't even have a sting made for that.

• 45:05Speaker 03

  I saw, I saw somebody I hadn't seen for a long time, who said to me, in all seriousness, at a sort of family gathering the other day, he said, you know that thing you do, I mean, you are, and she said this in all seriousness, she wasn't being funny, you're pretending to be that stupid, aren't you? You're deliberately getting them wrong, aren't you? And I went, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was too ashamed to admit. No, I'm trying, I'm trying my best.

• 45:28Martin Lewis?

  Oh, well, but wait, do you know what? There is a lot of admiration out there that you put yourself through this

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:34Martin Lewis?

  each week and many people would be in a similar boat. So don't feel bad about it.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  For my birthday, which is the 21st of March, it's a Saturday. On the Thursday before that, I am going to be asking you the mastermind question as your birthday present to me. I'm already working on it.

• 45:48Martin Lewis?

  It's, it's a deal, Adrian. It's a deal. I will allow that to happen if I'm not off that week.

• 45:54Speaker 03

  I'll do it the following week if you are off or the week before either. Anyway, go on.

• 45:58Martin Lewis?

  Anyway, Adrian, in an admirably self-aware attempt to upgrade your famously laconic on-air delivery, changing from quietly unimpressed to merely slightly amused, you have purchased a state-of-the-art Tickle Vest trademark. It's designed to sit under your shirt and give you gentle little strokes like an AI emotional support octopus.

• 46:23Martin Lewis?

  It costs around a hundred pounds. You pay ten pounds on your credit card and the other ninety pounds in cash. Sadly, before it arrives, the mighty, I can't even say this, Giggle Gillico collapses into bankruptcy, disappearing like a fart in a stiff breeze. So, are you covered by Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act? Remember, you paid ten pound on the credit card, the other ninety pounds in cash. A, yes, but only for the ten pounds. B, yes, for the entire one hundred pounds. Or C, no, you're not covered under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act at all.

• 47:05Speaker 03

  Okay, just do those to me again. A?

• 47:07Martin Lewis?

  You get ten pounds back because you put ten pounds on the credit card. B, you get all the money back, even though you only put ten pounds on the credit card and it costs a hundred pounds. Or C, you're not covered by Section 75.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  I think it's B. I think it's B.

• 47:19Martin Lewis?

  Can you tell us what Section 75 is?

• 47:21Speaker 03

  B, yes, it's, well, I don't think I could properly define it. It's what you get when you, if you buy something with a credit card, not a debit card, I don't think, but buy something with a credit card, then if something goes wrong with the purchase, then it's the, the credit card has the liability.

• 47:41Martin Lewis?

  It's not bad. Under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, if you buy something on a credit card, the credit card company has joint liability with the retailer. You have exactly the same rights with the credit card company as the retailer, but there are rules as to when it applies.

• 47:55Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 47:55Martin Lewis?

  So, one of the most important rules is no matter how much that you put on the credit card, if it's a qualifying section 75 purchase, the credit card company is liable for the entire amount. So, under the circumstance where you put a deposit on a credit card or you put a fractional payment on the credit card and it's a thousand pound item, a 10,000 pound item, as long as it's under 30,000 pounds, the credit card company is the entire amount. So, under that, Adrian, B, where you said you put 10 pounds on and the other 90 pounds in cash, you get the 100 pounds back, that would be correct.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  Go on. I just, what now? What now? What have you dreamt of now? It is flipping.

• 48:38Martin Lewis?

  This is so mean of me. Because the rule of section 75 is the item has to be between 100 pounds and 30,000 pounds. You paid 100 pounds. Technically, section 75 only applies for things that cost 100 pounds and a penny or more. So, section 75 does not apply. The correct answer is C, no, play the uh-uh. And that was a bit of a trick. It was a mean one.

• 49:04Speaker 03

  Hang on, it's because, because the 10 pound deposit I'd paid wasn't 100 pounds.

• 49:09Martin Lewis?

  No, because the 100 pounds, it needed to be 100 pounds. The item needed to cost over 100 pounds, which is 100 pounds and a penny.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  Okay. I've, I've got a serious question. The other day, something, ordered something, it didn't arrive. It was more than a, not much more, but more than 100 pounds. So, I airily said to my wife, so what are we going to do with section 75 on that? And she said, how do you do that then? I said, oh, I haven't got a clue. I know what it is, but I don't know how to clue to go about it.

• 49:36Martin Lewis?

  Well, I mean, on that, you might also do a chargeback because chargeback tends to just, just, chargeback is where your card company asks the, the company who paid you for the money back because you didn't get delivery. And, and card firms are more keen to do that because your card firm isn't paying for it.

• 49:51Speaker 03

  So, what do, so what? In that situation, what do I do?

• 49:54Martin Lewis?

  Call them up, tell them it happened, say I'd like to do a chargeback because I'll get my money because I didn't get delivery of this item and I shouldn't be paying for it. Now with the section 75, which comes in if the item was faulty, you did get delivery or the company's gone bust and there's certain reasons and the money can't be got there. You would then ask for a section 75, but I would tend to, my sort of rule is for ease. If it's covered by chargeback, ask them for a chargeback. If it's not covered by chargeback and it's on a credit card between a hundred pounds and thirty thousand pounds, ask them for a section 75. Because they're less keen to do it and you might have to fight them and go to the ombudsman. So in your case, I'd be calling them up, saying, I didn't get this delivery. I'd like my money back. I'd like you to do a chargeback and give me my money back, please. And that would work on a debit card as well.

• 50:34Speaker 03

  Okay, I've got it. And they'll say, hang on, is that Adrian Childs? Now, you're a clown. So you're definitely not having it.

• 50:41Martin Lewis?

  No, they won't. But they might say you're four nil down for the year, which isn't good.

• 50:47Martin Lewis?

  Hello, everyone. This is the pod only section now. I just wanted to make a couple more quick points on that money mastermind. The first thing is you can sometimes do a section 75 claim on your app. So you may be able to do it all online. You can do it automatically. It just depends on the credit card provider when you're doing it. The other thing is when we're talking about chargeback, what I didn't get the chance to say is unlike section 75, where you spend any amount on the card and the card company is liable for the entire amount as long as the amount is between a hundred pounds and thirty thousand pounds.

• 51:21Martin Lewis?

  That's fine, section 75. When you do a chargeback, which could be on a debit card or a credit card or a prepaid card for that matter. The card company is only liable for the amount paid on the card. So in the example I gave to Adrian, where the firm went bust, it wasn't eligible for section 75. He'd put ten pounds on the, because it was just a little bit too small, the transaction. He'd put ten pounds on the card and he'd put a hundred pounds on, it was a total payment. He would only be eligible for ten pounds back if he did a chargeback. He wouldn't get the whole hundred pounds back. He'd have to try and see if he would be a creditor to the Giggle Gillet company, which unfortunately I think probably doesn't have very much money at all. Because those octopus tickling vests, they didn't. So well, shame.

• 52:04Martin Lewis?

  Now, joining me is podcast producer Matt. Matt, I think we had a few more LISA Help to Buy type questions out there. Shall we just finish those off?

• 52:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, shall we? We'll start with Sharon.

• 52:14Martin Lewis?

  Yep.

• 52:14Speaker 04

  She says, my son's just turned 18, therefore I've just transferred him his trust fund, which I've saved hard into. Do you recommend he withdraws it and puts it into a LISA?

• 52:24Martin Lewis?

  Well, I'm not sure what you've transferred the trust fund into. I'm presuming you've transferred it into a cash ISA, which would be the standard thing to do. As to whether he puts it in a lifetime ISA depends. Is he very likely to be buying a first time buyer's property costing less than £450,000 in the next four or five years? If so, then putting it into a lifetime ISA is a good idea. If not, in that case, let's say he's going to be making a first time buyer purchase, but it's more than four or five years away. I would, it's very difficult. I might be tempted to see what this new product was when it launches in probably April 2028, because it may be better for him and not have the penalties.

• 53:07Martin Lewis?

  What I would definitely be doing is getting my pound in, so you've got that LISA facility open now, just in case anything changes in the meantime. So it's a hard one. If he's buying and looking to buy pretty imminently, yeah, use a LISA. If he's, you know, if you don't think he'll be buying his first property for another 10 years and you don't know the price of it, I probably wouldn't be opening, putting lots of money in an ISA. I would be opening one with a pound, so you've got the facility, but I wouldn't be putting lots of money in at the moment. I would be waiting to see what this consultation brings when it starts to come out.

• 53:35Speaker 04

  And Lisa, it's quite specific.

• 53:37Martin Lewis?

  Lisa's asking about LISA?

• 53:39Speaker 04

  Lisa's asking about a LISA.

• 53:40Martin Lewis?

  Nice.

• 53:40Speaker 04

  She says, we're in our mid 50s. The husband has a first time buyer's ISA at the maximum. He leaves the RAF in 2030 when he turns 60. We were hoping to buy a small bungalow with the ISA, my savings and releasing some of his pension. Alongside his RAF payout, we would manage that. I really don't want to lose our government bonus, but heard it ends before 2030. Any advice? We don't want to end up homeless in our old age.

• 54:03Martin Lewis?

  Well, you are right. The Help to Buy ISA does have a time limit on it. And I think you stop putting money in it by 2029 and it can be used until 2030, the bonus. That's where we are currently. I think you may be a beneficiary of this new situation. Obviously, if you buy a house before, then you just use it in the Help to Buy ISA. But the good thing about the Help to Buy ISA and like the Lifetime ISA is if you withdraw your money, well, you won't get the government bonus. You will get all your money and your interest back. You won't be paying a withdrawal penalty. So what I think may happen in your case, guesswork, guesswork, guesswork, is you will probably be able to transfer your Help to Buy ISA into the new product.

• 54:48Martin Lewis?

  And therefore, whatever the rules of the new product are, you will then be able to do. I think that is 60 to 70% likely, from what I'm hearing, that that will be where they consult. So it doesn't mean it will happen. I can't do any promises. But yes, otherwise, if that doesn't happen, well, you could simply withdraw your money from the Help to Buy ISA and put it into the new product. I've just thought of one extra stumbling block. The Help to Buy ISA didn't have any time age limits, so anybody could get a Help to Buy ISA of any age. The Lifetime ISA was aged 18 to 40. They are discussing whether they should have age limits or not in the new product. I don't know where they'll go on that.

• 55:30Martin Lewis?

  So you may not be able to get the new product anyway. He was 59, wasn't he? Was that what it said?

• 55:36Speaker 04

  2030, turned 60.

• 55:38Martin Lewis?

  So, yeah, he's in his 50s. That may be a blocker here. So you might be just reliant on the Help to Buy and therefore you have to use it. There are a lot of ifs and buts in your case, I'm afraid. So if you're going to want to use it, then you would need to use it to buy a house probably before, I think it's November 2030. The rules could change when they do this consultation. I think that's unlikely. You may be able to get and move it across to the new product, but it depends on whether they put an age limit in and whether they allow you to move it across. So we are in quite uncertain territory for you. I hope it gives you some clarity of at least what you should be looking at and thinking about there. That seems a good place to me to end. I think we've covered it in the main. Sorry, I can't be more definite on LISA and Help to Buy, but you know, the rules are not out yet.

• 56:21Martin Lewis?

  And I just felt it was important to do this because I'm getting so many questions from people about what it means and what they should be doing. I hope I've given you some way to try and navigate based on realistic probabilities of what is likely to happen. But of course, again, my caveat, we don't know.

• 56:40Martin Lewis?

  And that's it for this week. We tend to put out a new episode every Thursday and Monday, which is our Question Time podcast. There you can ask me absolutely anything and everything. And this week, tomorrow, we're putting a special Student Loan Extra Pod out too. Yes, three podcasts in the week. Who knew? That's a lot of pod. So if you want to make sure you don't miss out on any of them, why not subscribe? And then it will ping into the relevant app, online, email, or whatever forum you use for getting your podcasts. And you can listen until your heart, or at least your wallet, is content.

• 57:27Speaker 05

  Martin Lewis is the founder of MoneySavingExpert.com. But of course, other consumer and price comparison websites are available. You can get in touch with Martin's podcast production team by emailing [email protected]. The offers and rates mentioned in the podcast are correct at the time of recording. However, if you are listening on demand, it's worth double checking as details can date. Remember to subscribe on BBC Sounds and leave us a review however you listen.

• 58:03Speaker 04

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• 59:17Speaker 04

  Welcome to The Haunted Library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley. A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  Listen to The Haunted Library wherever you get your podcasts or find us on YouTube.