535 | After Minimalism

The Minimalists talk about the next step beyond owning less, minimizing the desire to complain, practical ways to stay motivated when you're a beginner, 50 emotions you regularly feel but haven't ever had a name for, and more. Discussed in this episode: Once I've minimized, what's the next step beyond just owning less? (7:36) Congratulations! You've finally minimized everything. Your life is now completely clutter free. Now what? (21:08) Right Here, Right Now: The Minimalism 10th Anniversary Tour, Simplehaven Retreat, and a new podcast segment. (32:34) Listener tip: Three practical ways to stay motivated when you're a beginner and things feel difficult? (41:33) Have a question for the show? Call 406-219-7839 or email a voice memo to [email protected]. Listen to the full Maximal episode on Patreon: patreon.com/theminimalists http://patreon.com/theminimalists Detailed show notes: minimalists.com/podcast http://minimalists.com/podcast

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:20Speaker 00

  Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing you think that you need. Every little thing that's just feeding your greed. Oh, I bet that you'd be fine without it.

• 0:38Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes, the minimalist Joshua Fields, Millburn here. My favorite logician, TK Coleman over there.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  The Wizard of Westchester is in the house.

• 0:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Savvy the logician, if you don't know, is a person who pulls numbers out of hats, right TK?

• 0:52Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. It begs the question, what is a magician? There's levels to this.

• 0:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So if you're watching the video version of this, you might notice we've got one of these bracelets on here. See this TK, see what it says?

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Is that a WW?

• 1:10Joshua Fields Millburn?

  WWJD, yeah. So what would Jordan do, right? Would he average 50 points in a game this season in the modern NBA?

• 1:19Speaker 02

  60.

• 1:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Would he still wear that mustache if he were to redo the Hanes commercial? Or if he squinted kind of closely, that's what I did. Here's why I bought this one. It looks like it says WWJO. And that's what I want to talk to you about during the right here, right now segment. We've got so much more to cover. First, here's something to chew on TK. An expectation spotlights your desires. A standard underlines your values. What does that mean to you?

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Well, an expectation is something that I reasonably or unreasonably.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Anticipate to happen.

• 2:02Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  I expect you to be here at a certain time. I expect you to say I love you back when I say I love you. Some of those expectations have been forged by agreements. Some of those expectations are an expression of my assumptions or my cultural conditioning, or just inferences I've made on the basis of past behavior. A standard, on the other hand, is a non-negotiable principle that guides my life. It's something that I refuse to live without or refuse to leave out of consideration. So a standard might be something like, hey, if we're going to have a conversation about expectations, we do so with mutual respect for one another's dignity. We're not going to talk on top of each other, call each other names and yell at each other.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  We're going to discuss the ideas rationally and maturely, right? That's a standard. So when you say an expectation spotlights your desires, a standard underlines your values. An expectation just tells me what you want or what you think would feel good to happen. But a standard tells me your character. It tells me who you are when no one's looking.

• 3:06Joshua Fields Millburn?

  For more than a decade now, when Nicodemus would go on the road, we'd often talk to people about lowering your expectations, expecting less, but raising your standards. And it was confusing because I think we often use those terms interchangeably. So I finally was able to get it down into an essay. And I spent more time on this short essay. It was way, way, way longer than this. It's called Expect Less. And if you subscribe to the Simple Newsletter, I already send it to you, but I'll read it for you here as well. Expect less. The simplest way to avoid disappointment is this. Lower your expectations, raise your standards. They sound similar, but they point in opposite directions.

• 3:50Joshua Fields Millburn?

  An expectation spotlights your desires. A standard underlines your values. Let me show you what I mean. If you expect a clutter-free home, you'll cringe every time something is out of place. But if your standard is to remove what doesn't add value, your home will grow calmer over time. If you expect six-pack abs, every workout will feel like a failure. But if your standard is to exercise every day, the results will follow. If you expect a soulmate before love enters your life, you'll miss countless chances to be loving. But if your standard is to be present with everyone, love will take care of itself.

• 4:35Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Man, imagine being disappointed by a calm home, a healthy body, or real love. That disappointment is always the byproduct of expectations. It's simple. Expectations try to control life. Standards allow life to delight you. Any other thoughts on that, TK?

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, one way you can significantly reduce unhealthy expectations, even if you can't get rid of them all, is you can translate a great amount of them into predictions and agreements. So if I'm, if I'm on the highway and there's someone in the lane to my right and they put on their left turn signal, I predict that this person is going to try to get over into my lane. And so I might adapt accordingly, you know, slow down and give them. But if they don't do that, and it just so, so happens to be the case that they turned, left it on mindlessly, then I will be surprised because my prediction was off, right? So expectations can be like predictions. I can still be surprised, I can still be wrong,

• 5:40Speaker 02

  but they don't carry a lot of weight. It's just, oh, isn't that interesting? Or, boy, that was inconvenient, but I'll get over it. The other way we can reduce expectations is by translating them into agreements. I expect you to do this for me, but I haven't shared that expectation with you and I haven't made a request of you. I'm really just assuming that you'll do that because that's what I think I would do if I were in your situation. Or because that's what I would like you to do. Or based on the story that I'm telling myself about you, or me, or us, or the culture that we're a part of, this is my prediction. And when you don't do that, it can be easy for me to treat you as if you're wrong. And so if I say, my expectations of others, when I can, I'm going to translate them into agreements

• 6:23Speaker 02

  by making them known and seeing if we can procure some kind of, you know, agreement where we say, all right, let's do this. Let's be here at this place and do this thing together. You do that, you'll get rid of a lot of the annoyance and frustration you feel with people when they break your expectations because essentially what you have are just predictions and agreements and you're not attached to anything.

• 6:45Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And part of what you're talking about there is also reducing the number of expectations you have by getting them out in the open and forming those agreements because you can't have an expectation about everything. I want to keep unpacking that with you throughout this episode, especially here coming up on page one. Today, we're talking about the next step beyond owning less. We're also going to talk about minimizing the desire to complain, practical ways to stay motivated when you are a beginner, and much, much more. Plus TK, on page three, we're going to discuss 50 emotions you regularly feel, but you haven't ever had a name for them until now. Let's start with our callers, 406-219-7839. If you want to join the program, just give us a

• 7:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  call, or you can send a voice memo right from your phone to [email protected]. Let us know if you're a Patreon subscriber so we can prioritize your message. Our first question today is from Kelly.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  This is Kelly Lamb from Grand Rapids, Michigan. This question is for Joshua and the gang. You never talk about what's after minimalism. What about the people who have achieved the goal? We have followed and listened. We own only what we need. I live in a 550 square foot studio downtown and live a full, rich life full of experiences. I grew up like you did, Joshua. Our stories are similar, but what's next? I know we will always continue not to make the purchase, but let's go deeper than that. I need more. Life after adopting minimalism. What's next?

• 8:20Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TK, now what? What's next for someone like Kelly who has minimized, but there has to be something beyond just owning less?

• 8:29Speaker 02

  I like the old saying, and I talk about this in Emotional Clutter, the proverb, "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water." Enlightenment is not some sort of mystical experience that's going to save us from the ordinary. It's not going to rescue us from the mundane. What it does is it transforms us in such a way so that we can learn how to be present to the ordinary, so that we can see beyond the illusion of ordinariness, and we can see the magic and the mysticism and the meaning in the mundane. And where philosophy has to be lived is not just at the mountaintop. It has to be lived in the valleys.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  And so, for me, the question of what's next after minimalism is... There's a frame to that question that can be disempowering. And there could be... A case could be made that maybe the final step is to let go of the need for there to be something after it. In fact, minimalism is simply the art of... You know, Ken Wilber has a book called The Simple Feeling of Being, right? And it's a book about the simplicity of being present to what is. And if we find ourselves demanding that what is be something more, something bigger, something flashier, then we haven't fully let go. We're still trying to negotiate the present moment.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  We're still trying to control it and to manipulate it. And I think minimalism is about being creative, not from a place of lack, where you see yourself as not having enough, the world isn't enough, and you're gonna make it be something. But you're creating from a sense of abundance. You're saying, "I am enough. I am whole. I am complete. I don't need any stuff. And from that place, I can create as a joyful expression of the spirit of play." And it's not about getting somewhere or getting something. It's simply about being who I am and being present to the ebb and flow of whatever is going on in my life. And sometimes that feels good, sometimes that feels bad, sometimes that feels like rain, sometimes that feels like sunshine, sometimes that feels like song, sometimes that feels like silence,

• 10:41Speaker 02

  sometimes it feels like dance, sometimes it feels like stillness, sometimes it feels like excitement, sometimes it feels like boredom. But it's all magical. It's all meaningful. And it's all now.

• 10:51Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And it's magical because of what you just talked about there. You said, you didn't say it in these words, but you're uncovering what is.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That what is, not what should happen, not what I expect to happen after minimalism. And that's why I wanted to start this episode with that essay and that pithy maxim there about standards versus expectations. What is, okay, what's my standard for what is versus what am I going to get next? I think quite often we sign a contract with ourselves to say, I'm going to make myself miserable until there's some sort of arrival point. It's called the arrival fallacy. And as soon as I get to that arrival point, a million dollars, a million followers, 10,000 square feet, the correct car, the correct suit, the correct purse, the correct belt, the correct wardrobe, the best walk-in closet, that's when I'll be happy.

• 11:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  There'll be this point of perpetual bliss, but those are all attachments, right? And so when I was talking earlier about, about expectations, they point toward or they spotlight your desires. What I'm really talking about there is a particular kind of desire. We would hear the Buddha say something like, desire is the root of sorrow. But what did he mean by that? There are other translations other than just desire. And one translation is attachment. Attachment is the root of our sorrows. Because who would want to live a life without desire? That's a life of a rock, right? And so of course I want to have desires, but what if I'm no longer attached to those desires?

• 12:29Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I think that's a little bit of what you're talking about there is the more we're able to drop those attachments, we're making room for what is right now.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. And I know, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna go ahead and get to this before they hit me up in the comments section, because some people act like I don't say this, but I'm pretty consistent on this position. Minimalism is not a religion. Minimalism is not the end all be all. Minimalism is in the same category as a vacuum or a dishwasher, you know, or a broom. It is a tool, period. Minimalism can't make your life meaningful. Okay? And, and even if you say, as I believe, it's not minimalism, it's Jesus, even then, you've still gotta answer the following question. All right? I've accepted Jesus, now what? You still wake up in the morning, you did that yesterday, now what? And you've still gotta come to this day, asking yourself,

• 13:23Speaker 02

  how can I be present to this day? As faithfully and lovingly and humanly as I can? How can I embody faith, hope and love in this day? In the place that I'm in? Because not every moment, even if it's a Jesus moment, is gonna feel like mystical ecstasy. Do you know that in religion? There is a great deal of discouragement and depression? When people have these experiences where they feel strong emotions? They're in a worship service and they're crying, they're in tears, or they read a book about the saints and they have what they take to be a miraculous experience? And then they have two months of boredom? Praying, meditating, not feeling anything? There is no approach to life that's gonna rescue you

• 14:09Speaker 02

  from having to be present to moments that don't strike us as exciting and titillating? You know? And so I look at it as like, imagine you're sitting down with your family? And you're getting ready to have movie night? Or you're getting ready to play a board game or a card game? Or you're getting ready to go for a walk with your significant other? And, and the other party says, after we do this, what are we gonna do? That might be a fair question, depending on the context, right? You may say, oh yeah, remember we're gonna go see the movie at eight? Oh yeah, that's right. And then they go, after we do that, what are we gonna do? And you say, well, remember we made the reservations for the one restaurant?

• 14:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I've been taking conversations with my daughter.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  And then they say, okay, then what are we gonna do after that? And then you could say, well, after that, it'll be pretty late. And so we'll probably come home, go to bed so we can get up in the morning, you know, because we're going on that camping trip. Oh yeah, and after we're done with that, what are we gonna do? Now, now at some point, no matter how good you are at coming up, you're gonna reach the end of your plan. You're gonna reach the end of what you have accounted for. But your answer is going to be the vibrational equivalent? The energetic essence of something like, I don't know. But when we get there? We'll try to approach it as playfully and joyfully as we can. We'll try to decide what we should do.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  That is the most authentic expression of what we value. And that's probably going to involve something like some time together. You know, and we'll take a look at what's in front of us, depends where we are. But you know, all those details don't matter. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. What matters is that we're going to be together. You know, we're going to do our best to be together. That's what really matters. And so why do you simplify your life? Why do you declutter your kitchen? Why do you get rid of all the stuff that's been weighing you down? Because you wanted to spend time with family? You wanted to spend time with yourself? You wanted to be less stressed by those things? And if you've achieved that, that's great. Now be present to life. Enjoy it as much as you can. The details doesn't, don't matter as much as the flowing of the energy of love that you are.

• 16:17Joshua Fields Millburn?

  On page three, I've got our added value segment. I have two things for you I'll get to, but one of them is a movie that I watched in the theater this weekend, and it was the best display of presence that I can remember. It's like someone filmed presence and put it on the screen. And it wasn't all bliss. It wasn't, you know, Aldous Huxley, Brave New World. That's sort of a story about perpetual bliss. It's a dystopian book. And I love what you were talking about there. It's not about reaching some bliss point. And I think sometimes we think that that's the arrival fallacy. As soon as I reach some point, some horizon, everything beyond the horizon must be utopia. Well, every utopia we know turns into a dystopia.

• 17:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So be really careful what we are searching for. That comes another attachment, right? Attachment to future bliss? Oof, that's going to lead to future regrets as well. I talked to you about my first novel I ever wrote in my twenties. The, the main character had a big tattoo on his forearm that said future regrets on it. It was the name of one of his songs. He was a singer songwriter and it was just a reminder to like, uh oh. It's kind of like the Wednesday rule that we have from very, very simple. And I gotta regret this next Wednesday or will I be Delighted that I made this decision next Wednesday. If this is going to be a future regret, then why would I want to do it right now? But yet, we often discard that and we do a lot of things in the present moment.

• 17:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We're going to regret because we have some sort of expectation, some attachment. And so if I were to rewrite that line to be more specific and less poetic, I would say that an expectation spotlights your desires and attachments. Attachments are those types of desires that we just can't put down. We're clinging to even though it's making us miserable. Or the first line of that essay, "The simplest way to avoid disappointment is this." I'm disappointed all the time, but it's always because of these expectations that I picked up that I've decided not to put down yet. But as soon as I see it, if I'm holding on to a snake, I'm not going to say, "Hey TK, I've got the snake in my hand right now. I just looked down, noticed it was there.

• 18:28Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Can you give me three steps on how to let go of this snake?" I know right away that there's a dozen things I can do. I could throw it against the wall. I could step on it. I could hand it to Matt Savadakis over there and let him deal with it. There are a bunch of things I can do to let go, but I can't let go until I notice that I am attached to it. And so with minimalism, it's possible to get rid of all of your things, but be miserable because you've held on to all the attachments. In fact, you'll even be more miserable, right? It's also possible to have things, to enjoy them, but not to need them in the same way that you're attached to them. And your happiness, your joy is tied to those things.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  There's an anecdote of a man who had this really profound mystical experience. And he comes to see the reality of transcendence. And he says, "God, I will do anything for you. What do you require of me?" And God says, "Go home to your family and love them." He was ready to go on a mission trip. He was ready to be a martyr and lay down his life. And what was demanded of him was something much more difficult. Go back to that ordinary home, that ordinary family you got, and see the beauty in them and affirm the beauty in them. And that is the calling for all of us. Whatever our station is in life, whatever our stage of life is, whatever enlightenment we might seek, whatever decluttering we might do.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  At the end of the day, the work is to be present and to love your people. And to the degree that you find yourself unable to do that, To work on that.

• 20:01Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Hmm. Yeah, yeah, there's beauty in the banality. And that's the movie I'm going to talk to you about later is there's so much banality. I took my daughter to see it and she's 12 and even she found like tremendous beauty and presence within that banality. It doesn't all have to be exciting and cortisol dumping all of the time. It can be simple. And that's what we're talking about here with Kelly. Decluttering your life is just step one, right? Living is step two. That's the now what? Kelly, I'd love for you to have a copy of Emotional Clutter. TK mentioned it. It's available on Kindle now. If you want to read the ebook version or the audiobook

• 20:42Joshua Fields Millburn?

  version is now on Audible as well. TK and I recorded the audiobook together. We did a little mini podcast between each chapter. I think you'll enjoy that. Savvy D, if you could send her a copy of that, I'd appreciate it. Also, if you want to book a clutter counseling session, head on over to theminimalists.com and click Counseling at the top if you think that TK's wisdom can help you further on this topic. Before we get back to our callers, TK, let's look at the question of the week. Congratulations. You finally minimized everything. Now your life is completely clutter free. Now what? That's the question of the week this week. It tied in perfectly with Kelly's question. I wanted to see what some people in our audience had to say.

• 21:26Joshua Fields Millburn?

  So we posted this in the Patreon community chat. Consuela said, "After I've completely minimized, I want to deepen my relationships and enjoy the little things. The smell of the ocean, a quiet hike, a delicious meal. I want to be able to enjoy these things without the anxiety." TK, those sound like some worthwhile pursuits to me. Do you have any insights for Consuela that might help her avoid, I don't know, want to waiting before she deepens her relationships and enjoys the little things? She can do that while she minimizes, right?

• 22:03Speaker 02

  That's absolutely right. And I don't want to make any assumptions here. Maybe she is doing that. I think about Therese Lassue, The Little Way. And I think about the idea of practicing little things with great love, right? That In the same way that we can want to enjoy the little things, we can give ourselves permission to enjoy the little things in little ways by taking little steps. It can be easy to say, one day when I retire, or when I have a financial windfall, or when I get on the other side of whatever this busyness is, I'm gonna enjoy something small. But part of the art of enjoying something small is enjoying the power that we have

• 22:43Speaker 02

  to do small things that allow us to create a small amount of space to enjoy those little things. And so I would say, give yourself permission now. It reminds me of the angel in C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce, when he's challenging the man to let go of something that's holding him back. And he says, "Let me think about it. Maybe I'll do it in the future." And the angel says, "All moments are contained within this moment." And when we realize that and we take a tiny step in the direction of how we want to live in the future, and we just do it now, we often find that that is the means by which we get more time, energy, and space.

• 23:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It is always now. And that anxiety that we often feel, like Consuela feels, and I feel all the time, often has to do, almost always has to do with my expectations and my attachments, right? That the anxiety says something about what I'm attached to, what am I holding on to tightly? Frank said, "After I simplify everything, I will find something else to complain about."

• 23:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  You know, I wrote down a minimal maxim that, this is from an essay I wrote years ago. The maxim is, "A smile is more useful than a snivel." And it's so easy to complain. But what would you say, TK, if I told you your complaints point toward your clinging?

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Maybe so, maybe so, right? Because if I'm complaining about something, that could be an indicator that I haven't let it go. You know, can you imagine you're, you've been married for three years? And every time your, your wife laughs at one of your jokes, you go, you know, my ex-girlfriend, she never laughed, you know, she always thought I was just too silly. I appreciate the fact that you can, you know, think I'm funny. My ex-girlfriend was always, you know, your spouse might look at you and say, hey, man, can you let that go? Like, she's not here, right? There's something about complaining that can have the ability to take you out of the moment. And it can, it can take your pass and, and sort of like freeze you in that state. And so I, I get what you mean there.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  I would say that there's another aspect of it as well. And that is your, your complaining could also reveal to you something about your values. And in the recognition of those values revealed to you, you can transmute your complaining into creativity. So if you see something that you don't like, or, or you deal with a customer and there's something about the interaction that really annoys you, or something just doesn't go your way, you can step back and say, why am I so mad about that? Before I rush to enlightenment, before I rush to saying, oh, I shouldn't feel that way. So I'm going to pretend like I don't. And you say, well, I am mad though. I know I shouldn't be, but I am. Why am I so mad about that? Because I, I think I prefer for it to unfold in this way. Well, why did I have that preference? Because I, I really want things to be this way. Well, why do I really want?

• 25:40Speaker 02

  Because I'm at a stage of life now where this is my priority. Okay. Now, how can we talk and think and act in a direction that moves us towards that? And you do that, you've taken the energy that was bottled in that complaint.

• 25:54Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  And you've transmuted it and now you can embody it in creativity.

• 25:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  It's that energy that, that you're talking about. We feel it. It's the same energy we feel with happiness. I think of Anthony DeMello when someone asked him, like, okay, you always talk about attach, or attachment, removing attachments is where you find happiness. But can you, can you talk about happiness in the positive? And he said, well, happiness is just. A word, there's really no definition for it. So I can't show a blind man what it's like to see or a deaf man what it's like to hear. I can explain it in words, but it's a, it's an experience and you feel that. And the same thing is true with the anxiety or the complaints. I feel that energy. Real quick, let's do one more from Courtney.

• 26:41Joshua Fields Millburn?

  She said, after I have decluttered everything, I plan on looking at before and after pictures. So I don't forget how different my life used to be. You know, TK, I still have a photo of me from when I was obese as a kid. And I weighed 240 pounds. There was a year where I lost about a hundred pounds as a teenager. And then I eventually gained it all back because I kind of didn't remember the habit change. I keep that photo now because it's a good reminder that I, I don't want to go back to my old habits. Does that make sense to you?

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, those reminders can be very useful too. And, and not only keeping yourself from going back. Well, by the way, real quick aside, I think it was the ESPN 30 for 30, the Detroit Pistons Bad Boys. Someone said about Dennis Rodman, his work ethic during that phase of his career. I mean, his work ethic was always like crazy high.

• 27:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. And one of his Pistons teammates said, Dennis Rodman played basketball like he was afraid to go back to something. I thought that was such an interesting line, you know? Sometimes it can be healthy to remember where you came from. So that you can stay focused on the choices you've been making to move yourself past that. I really like that. And it can also help you be more empathetic towards other people. Malcolm X says that one of the most difficult things about learning is that once we learn, we quickly forget what it felt like to not know. And when we encounter someone who doesn't know what we know, we're very offended by them. Very disgusted and this, things like that can help.

• 28:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, that's so good. How about you listeners? You finally minimized everything. Your life is now completely clutter free. Now what? Let us know your thoughts in the comments. All right, I got my minimal maxim ready for you, TK. You can find this episode's maxims in the show notes over at theminimalists.com/podcast and every minimal maxim ever at minimalmaxims.com. We'll also deliver our weekly show notes directly to your inbox every Monday. If you sign up for our email newsletter at theminimalists.com. Also, I write an essay, like the one I read at the top of the show. Every week I publish an essay in that simple newsletter. You can subscribe for free. We'll never send you spam or junk or ads, but we'll start your week off with a dose of simplicity.

• 28:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, give me something pithy, TK. You finally minimized everything. Your life is now completely clutter free. Now what?

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Minimalism is about the rhythm, not the results. The rhythm of the night.

• 29:13Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  We are a part of the rhythm nation.

• 29:16Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  Wait, there's another one. There's another one. I can't think. It's a rhythm.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Rhythm is gonna get you.

• 29:24Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, so look, man, there are certain activities which while you do them, you're not thinking about when you're gonna get finished, even though you know there's going to be an end to it. You know, when you're on the dance floor dancing or when you're at a concert, if you're doing it right, you're not looking at the person next to you. You're like, what time is this over? You're at the wrong concert, man. You know what I mean? Or you went on the wrong night.

• 29:49Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Right.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  But you're, you know, there's an end time because people gotta get out of here. You can only rent this venue for so long. But while the moment is happening, you, you don't, you wanna, you don't wanna move past the moment. You wanna move as deeply into the moment that you know is going to pass. So that when it's over, you could say, ah, for those two hours, I have truly lived. And then as Jay-Z says, you go on to the next one.

• 30:12Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yes.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  And so I think life is about finding things that are worth doing simply because of the, the, the energy in which you get to participate. You know, because of the way in which those things make you come alive. Some things are valuable precisely because you finish them. But there are other things that are valuable because of the way you feel and the way you come alive, the way you actualize when you participate in them. And for me, minimalism isn't just about saying, all right, I'm gonna get rid of all the extra cups and then I'm done. Because what's the point of getting rid of all the extra cups? You can keep them.

• 30:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah.

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Minimalism is about saying, there is a rhythm of life that I want to have. And I'm going to ritualize those things that support the rhythm and declutter everything else.

• 30:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, I'm gonna get the things out of the way that don't support that rhythm.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:03Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Which brings me to my pithy answer. I I channeled my inner TK Coleman for this one. You often, you hear me talk about minimalism as a horizon. It's not a destination because you can see a horizon and it looks like you can get there. But you never get there. If you just keep sailing west, there's a horizon point. And then you get there and there's just more ocean ahead of you, right? But if I were to reframe that in a way, here's my my minimal maxim for today. Minimalism isn't the destination. It's the doorway. Like, what am I opening the door for here? And I would say this to Kelly or Consuela or Frank or Courtney or anyone else listening to this. Yes, what am I making room for? But I'm making room to go somewhere.

• 31:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What's here, right here in front of me? What's that doorway? What's on the other side of the door? Then minimalism is gonna clear the stuff in front of it so you can get there. Now, I'll say this, you're still gonna keep minimizing. On page three, I have this video I want to show you about, okay, I'm a minimalist, but I still minimize some things. Now what? You keep minimizing. After you simplify, you continue to simplify. It may be different. You may apply those principles of simplicity to other areas of your life, whether that's emotions or relationships or your career or your calendar. But you'll keep applying it to your material possessions as well. So we'll dive a bit deeper on that here. But first, right here, right now, little segment we do, we're almost at the end of page one.

• 32:32Joshua Fields Millburn?

  We still have a whole switchboard of callers to talk to. But right here, right now, here are two things going on in the life of the minimalist. And then I want to tell you about this bracelet as well. First, Minimalism Tour 2026. So this week, it starts in Dayton, Ohio. We're gonna be there this Thursday. If you want to join us at the Neon Theater, I think there are still some tickets left as of this recording. Then we'll be in Tennessee and California and Montana. Ryan, Nick, and Demas and I are gonna give a talk or have a meet and greet. We'll do a screening. It's the 10th anniversary of our first Netflix documentary, Minimalism. Also, we have a surprise for you. There's a little film I want to show you. But you have to show up at one of these tour stops in order to see it.

• 33:14Joshua Fields Millburn?

  TheMinimalists.com/tour if you want to find any of those dates and grab your tickets. Also, there's just a few spots left as of this recording for our three-day minimalism retreat in Ojai, California. And it actually sold out, but then there were a few people who couldn't make it. So we've got a few spots left. If you'd like to join us for three days, it's May 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Me and Ryan Agademas and TK Coleman, and we have some special guests who are going to be there as well. And 30 of you will be joining together at the Ojai Art Center, and we're going to spend a weekend learning to let go. We're going to look at those attachments. What am I attached to? What do I want to let go of? You can come by yourself. A lot of people do. More than half the crowd comes by themselves, or you

• 33:58Joshua Fields Millburn?

  can bring a friend or a family member with you as well. We'd love to see you there. TheMinimalists.com. Just click Events at the top. You can find all the information for Simple Haven 2026. All right, quick programming note for you. I got this bracelet, and it says WWJO if I squint really closely. You know, the most popular questions that we get here, TK, at The Minimalists. Savvy D sees them every day. They show up in the DMs and email inbox, and they find their way to me. "What brand of t-shirt do you own? Tell me about your black t-shirt." Or, "Hey, Josh, as a minimalist, what blender

• 34:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  do you have? Do you own a leaf blower? And if so, what's the brand? What couch is that that you posted in that photo on Instagram? What kind of coffee mug do you use? You know what? I'm really curious. Looking for a new mattress. Hey, Josh, what mattress would you buy if you were me? I noticed in one of those pictures, you have a massage table at home. That's interesting. What brand is that? Or, "What kind of soap do you use to wash your dishes?" And people always ask these questions about, "What would Joshua own?" And I had this woman I dated right after, it was maybe 2012.

• 35:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And I remember she said, I need to get one of these bracelets to say WWJD on it. What would Joshua do? So every time I went to the store and I'm getting ready to buy something, make this impulse purchase, I could look at the bracelet and say, okay, would the healthiest version of me still make this purchase? If it's a bag of Doritos or if it is something I can't necessarily afford? Do I need another pair of jeans? What would the healthiest, not what would Josh do, but what would the healthiest version of me do? People used to, people do every day, they still DM and they'll ask, what brand of black t-shirt do you recommend? And at first, that question used to drive me crazy. Do you know why it would drive me crazy?

• 36:08Speaker 02

  No.

• 36:09Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Speculate for me. Why might I be frustrated getting that question repeatedly?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  What brand of black t-shirt you want?

• 36:15Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Yeah, it doesn't have to be just black t-shirt. It could be anything. What kind of bag do you use? What sort of luggage do you have? What car do you own? Why does, why would you think that question might frustrate me?

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Maybe because you're not reading into your decisions like that. And it bothers you that someone would think that just because you happen to have bought a t-shirt from a certain place, that that means they should as well? That it feels prescriptive to you? And I know you're very, you hate prescriptions. Maybe that's it.

• 36:44Joshua Fields Millburn?

  That's part of it. Yeah, yeah. The, I don't want to prescribe something. It's also difficult for me to recommend something because I don't know whether or not it would work for you. So that's why even our added value segment, it's here's something that's been adding value to my life recently. But here's the real reason that I was frustrated every time I would get that question. I'd feel like people who ask the question miss the point. I've been talking about this minimalism thing and getting the excess out of the way. And, and the question you're reaching out to me with is, hey, what t-shirt should I buy? Are you missing the whole point? But let me say this, I was wrong. And I was wrong because it was really a signal of trust.

• 37:23Joshua Fields Millburn?

  People were saying, "Look, Josh, I know you're one of the minimalist. You're super deliberate with the purchases you make and the decisions. And so there's a level of intentionality that goes into your purchases. There's research and because I trust you, I can ask you. And here's the shortcut for me to make a purchase without having to go through all the same pains that Josh had to go through when he was dealing with making the decision about what's the best shirt or the best leaf blower, or what sauna do I have at home? Or what desk chair do I use, right? These are all things I do use. Minimalism is often thought of as an anti-thing philosophy, but obviously it's not. I get a lot of value from my things.

• 38:08Joshua Fields Millburn?

  In fact, the paradox is I get far more value from my things on average than when they were watered down with hundreds of thousands of excess things that simply got in the way. And so I was wrong. People reach out to me, not because they don't get minimalism, it's because they get minimalism. And the people they trust are a beacon. It doesn't mean that everything that I own is something that I would recommend other people should own. There are some people who would have serious deprivation if they owned as few things as I have. There are other people, like our friend Colin Wright, if he owned as many things as me, he wouldn't be able to do the world traveling that he does.

• 38:48Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And so it's highly perspectival, but when you need something, you go to a trusted source. And so it was really people saying, "Hey, I trust you. What would Josh own?" And so in that spirit, I want to announce that I'm working on a new segment for this podcast. I don't know where it's going to go yet, but we have people ask these questions all the time. And I'd love for you to send in a voice memo to [email protected], or you can just call us 406-219-7839 and just leave a brief message. "Hey, Josh, I'm curious. What kind of black t-shirts do you own? What kind of leaf blower is that that I saw in that picture? Where'd you get your garden beds from?"

• 39:33Joshua Fields Millburn?

  What kind of car do you drive? I'm okay with that because I want to show that minimalism is not an anti-thing philosophy. It's a pro-intentionality philosophy.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it reminds me of how maybe when someone is just discovers that they gotta stop eating gluten, or they've gotta change something in their diet, something that they never had to think about, they've gotta start thinking about. And they may ask questions that sound almost laughable to a health fanatic that's been in the game for a long time. They may say something like, is there like a gluten-free cheesecake I could have? And on the other end of that, you're thinking, man, you just gotta think beyond cheesecake, period. But it's what the person is doing is they're trying to get a feel for what they can do. Like, they don't have a vocabulary of, all they know is what's demanded of them. I can't have gluten. I can't have this. That's all I know. Well, what can I do?

• 40:29Speaker 02

  And since this is what I know, I'm gonna start with what I know and just modify it a little bit and see if there's something that I can learn there. And I think the best learners are the people who can persist in asking questions even when they know their questions aren't very good. And the best teachers are the ones who can engage those questions with grace, even though those questions are not yet as sophisticated and mature as they will be once the learner progresses. So, I like this. I like your change of mind on that, and I like this segment. And since it's, your bracelet says WWJO, we're gonna make it a two-part segment. Well, you'll do, what would Joshua own? And then I'll do, who would Jordan obliterate?

• 41:10Speaker 02

  And I'll name one contemporary NBA player that Jordan would obliterate if he were playing today, every week.

• 41:19Joshua Fields Millburn?

  I love it. What would Joshua own? You can let us know what your questions might be. Don't DM them, send them into the podcast, 406-219-7839, or [email protected]. Much more coming up, but first, here's a minimalist tip from one of our listeners.

• 41:37Speaker 04

  Hello, this is Whitney. I'm from Indianapolis, Indiana, and I'm a Patreon subscriber.

• 41:44Speaker 04

  I wanted to share three tips on mindset. I often struggle with my mind getting in my way when I'm starting something new or something is hard, and I've come up with three tips to help combat the thoughts I have when something gets too hard or it feels too overwhelming. Number one, every expert in their field wants to start it off as a novice. I'm just starting today. It's okay if it's easy for them, but it's hard for me. They have lots more experience.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  Number two, what do you get to learn from doing something perfectly the first time? Nothing. And finally, number three, two minutes is better than no minutes when starting a new habit. Hope that helps someone.

• 42:43Joshua Fields Millburn?

  Oh, Whitney, thank you so much for that helpful comment. I really liked that second one. You don't learn anything from doing something perfectly the first time. Also, I need to remind my wife that last one, "two minutes is better than no minutes," Bex.

• 43:00Joshua Fields Millburn?

  For anyone else has a listener tip or insight about this episode, send a voice memo to [email protected] so we can feature your voice on the show. Up next, page two and page three, but first, let's take a quick pandiculation break. We'll be right back.

• 43:18Joshua Fields Millburn?

  All right, y'all, that was amazing. We'll see you on Patreon for the full two-hour maximal edition of episode 535. You don't want to miss it. By the way, you can do a seven-day free trial over on Patreon as well. So if you want to give it a shot, you gotta listen to this maximal episode. We talked about a bunch of things, including some questions like, "How can Sandra part with items tied to a previous chapter of her life when she no longer uses them but still feels attached?" Also, "How can..." Kelly, a different Kelly from the Kelly we had on page one. How can Kelly navigate decluttering a loved one's belongings when that grief is still so fresh after a death?

• 43:59Joshua Fields Millburn?

  And how can Harold start living a minimalist life in his 40s with his wife and two sons when everything always feels like it's a big mess? Plus a million more questions and simple living segments over on the Minimalist Private Podcast on Patreon. The link is in the description. When you subscribe, you can listen to our private podcast episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Plus, you'll gain access to all of our podcast archives, all the way back to the very first episode. And that is our minimal episode for today. On behalf of Ryan Nicodemus, TK Coleman, Audio Ben, Spire Jeff, and Dave, Tom Cat, Professor Sean, Savvy D, and the rest of our team, I'm Joshua Fields Milburn.

• 44:39Joshua Fields Millburn?

  If you leave here with just one message, let it be this: Love people and use things because the opposite never works. Thanks for listening, y'all. We'll see you next time. Peace.