Top Chef Final 3! An Inside View on the Chaos and Competition!!

SPOILER ALERT!! With the Top Chef Season 23 finale just days away, Adrienne and Joe break down the final three chefs and reveal what it really takes to win it all. They analyze Laurence, Rhoda, and Sherry’s chances, share behind-the-scenes secrets from the competition, and revisit their own Top Chef finale experience, including the mistakes they'd avoid, the sous chefs they'd choose today, and stories they've never shared before. In this episode: The secrets behind how Top Chef is really made, including the infamous clock and other insider rules Sieger’s emotional reaction after his elimination A deep dive into Joe and Adrienne’s Top Chef Season 15 finale experience What they would do differently today and which sous chefs they would choose now A memorable story about fan-favorite Fati Adrienne’s least favorite moment from their season of Top Chef Follow the show: @chefscutpod Follow Adrienne: @chefadriennecheatham Follow Joe: @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Today on The Chef's Cut, Joe and I are looking ahead to the Top Chef Season 23 finale. We're down to the last three, and this is an intense time. We're going to give you our thoughts on the final three chefs heading into the last cook that'll determine the winner.

• 0:28Joe Flamm?

  Like the Kentucky Derby, it's like, can you hang on to it for one more stretch?

• 0:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  We're also looking back at our own season finale and giving you some behind the scenes on how Top Chef really works. People ask all the time, is the clock real? It's the realest part. Chef's Cut Nation, you know what time it is. If you're a fan of The Chef's Cut, please take a few seconds to rate and review the show wherever you get your pods. It really helps.

• 1:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, it is getting intense, and there are a few people that can really relate to this. When it comes to a finale on Top Chef, we're there. We're down to the last three, and this is an intense time. It's like, watching it, I feel it. I remember what it's like going into that.

• 1:18Joe Flamm?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Brings back all kinds of PTSD.

• 1:22Joe Flamm?

  Absolutely. And I mean, and it's been a wild road to the last three. I mean, the top five, and I mean, usually, right, your top five is stacked, right? But I thought it was a particularly, really, really even top five this year. And how it's gotten down to three has been wild, especially with the first one, with, you know, Seager going out in that challenge.

• 1:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:44Joe Flamm?

  You know, and I know people are dogging him hard, and it's like, people obviously don't understand the pressure you feel sitting there on that show. You put everything into it. You know, I got sent home a lot earlier than, you know, you never really got sent home. And so like, I, you know, for him, it was like, I got him beat upset at the end and say those things. The only, the only wild thing to me, the really wild part of it was the thing with the rules at the end.

• 2:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah. Because there's a process for that. Like, do you remember every single challenge, not just eliminations, but also quick fires? They give you a stop. Like they they'd say this is the challenge, blah, blah, blah, go. And then it's called a false start. And then you have to stop. Somebody breaks out hard copies of the rules, passes it out to everybody, reads it. And there is a separate camcorder that they are recording. Everybody after they read has to say, I understand. I agree. It's like being in the exit row on an airplane. You have to verbally agree.

• 2:45Joe Flamm?

  Right. And like the quickfire ones were pretty quick. You know what I mean? Because they wanted to make us like, not really have time to think, which I understood. You know, I mean, those were usually 30 seconds. But the elimination challenge, I mean, one of I remember like one of those, sitting in rules for like a half an hour, because elimination challenge, they let you ask all the questions about it, right? You know, they they let you clarify every little thing. You have that time before the challenge to clarify every single dish, right? They're very, very clear about that. And ask all your questions. And I remember sitting in that we had that rules one was fucking half hour because someone couldn't understand how a staggered cook worked.

• 3:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, yeah, because they we went into the kitchens.

• 3:27Joe Flamm?

  Yes.

• 3:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Because every and that was it was actually, I was glad they did that because if you go into the kitchen at the same time and all put your dishes up at the same time, your dish is going to sit there and get cold by the time the judge. Yeah.

• 3:39Joe Flamm?

  So staggered cook made sense to everyone except that one person.

• 3:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Who shall remain nameless.

• 3:44Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, like his whole thing with the rules. It's like they explain the rules. But it's also it's like, dude, like, if it's not a good dish.

• 3:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's the thing.

• 3:52Joe Flamm?

  Like, the number one, the golden rule of Top Chef is like, it's got to be good.

• 3:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's got to be good.

• 3:57Joe Flamm?

  You know, and then it goes down to the technical. If you have two good dishes, you know, having sat, you know, a judge, if you have two dishes that are equally good, then you get to the nitty gritty of the challenge. That's where that chunk comes in, really. You know what I mean? In my opinion, from what I've seen sitting there.

• 4:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  And as somebody who's been on the bottom for several challenges, I can tell you that when they go through two dishes that they don't like, or three, there's three of us up in front of the judges, and they're going through each dish. Yes, the rules matter, but the technical flaws matter more.

• 4:31Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 4:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  And something like a moisture.

• 4:33Joe Flamm?

  Competition.

• 4:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Exactly.

• 4:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  And so saying like, what's the rules? Like both, I feel like Jonathan and Seeger both used the local ingredients. They both did the Appalachian honoring the ingredients, the traditions. They both hit those notes. So it came down to the technical flaws and Jonathan's dish may have been unbalanced, too acidic, but you know, a runny chicken liver mousse with a wet garnish on top. You know, I, I can understand how the judges are like, this is, this is the splitting hairs between the two.

• 5:06Joe Flamm?

  Totally. And I think they were, you know what I mean? Not having tried the dishes though, I think, you know, they, they were probably right. Um, and like shout out to Jonathan for trying to walk him back down that road, but he wasn't having that, but you know what I mean?

• 5:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  He was like, bro, chill, bro chill.

• 5:19Joe Flamm?

  All right. I don't want to go too far down just on that one episode. We got a final three.

• 5:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 5:24Joe Flamm?

  We gotta talk about all three of them. I think first and foremost, let's talk about Lawrence. Cause I think he's one that like from the beginning, like he, he seems like a very technical cook and like, you know, and all of these things, but like not a ton of experience, right? Like not a ton of like restaurant chef experience, but I think he does a really good job of like playing to his strengths.

• 5:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 5:46Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know, it's like, like he baked bread for that, you know what I mean?

• 5:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  That 200 person?

• 5:50Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  My gosh.

• 5:52Joe Flamm?

  I think the thing that maybe Lawrence is the best at and why he's there is he's really good at living in his lane.

• 6:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 6:00Joe Flamm?

  Staying in his comfort zone and being like, I'm going to sit on my pitch and when I get it, I'm going to hammer that fucking.

• 6:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. He has a very defined style. He sticks to it and he executes well at every challenge.

• 6:15Joe Flamm?

  And I think that's one of the hardest things. Like if you don't have a super concise voice, that gets flushed out super quick on that show, right? And so I think like that's been for me with him. I think like the number one thing where I think like is his strength. If he could take what he's done, where it's like, this is who I am. This is how I cook. If he can do that. One more time at the highest level. I think that dude's that's super. It's super hard to beat. Consistency and clarity. Always. You know what I mean? Ambiguity loses every.

• 6:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  Every time, every time. I think for him to win, he needs to continue leaning into his strengths. Like you said, like he's been doing. Lean into it, execute well, but maybe give something a little unexpected. If he can like add a touch or a little flourish of something.

• 7:06Joe Flamm?

  See, I think that.

• 7:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  Really?

• 7:08Joe Flamm?

  I think that is the road to his demise.

• 7:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Ah, okay.

• 7:11Joe Flamm?

  If he goes out on a, on a, on a.

• 7:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm not saying do a pasta dish. I'm not saying like go completely.

• 7:17Joe Flamm?

  Pasta dish.

• 7:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  But.

• 7:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, I'm just saying, you know, maybe a nice vitello tonato. It's like if he could add a touch of something. I love the clearly defined vision, but if he could add an element of something that maybe he's learned through his time on the show, a technique of a condiment or something to show just a little bit outside of that wheelhouse.

• 7:41Joe Flamm?

  I think that always plays nice in the finale. But I think so, you know, going from him, I think, you know, go to the, you know, Rhoda, right? I think Rhoda is kind of, you know, this is why she's had ups and downs is because she didn't begin with that clarity. That Lawrence had, right? And I think we've watched Rhoda find it. You know what I mean? And it's kind of one of those things where it's like, I feel like, okay, has Rhoda found it at the right time? And is she getting hot?

• 8:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. Is she like peaking for the Kentucky Derby now, which is where you want to be?

• 8:16Joe Flamm?

  So I think like the biggest thing Rhoda has going for her is like, she's got a momentum. Going, it feels like she's kind of found her voice and it's always like, you know, like the Kentucky Derby. It's like, can you hang on to it for one more stretch?

• 8:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right.

• 8:31Joe Flamm?

  Like, did you just, and it's hard to tell, right? You can't tell right now. It's like, did you just gas out right now? Cause like you and I kind of both hit our strides at the same time going to the finale, right? Like we were both kind of running on a heater when I came back. Like I, I was off and then I was back, but then it was like kind of you and me through till the end.

• 8:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Joe Flamm?

  And I mean, obviously because we like both won, but it was like, when I got back, I was like, oh, Adrian's cooking her best food now. And you know, I felt like I was cooking my best food.

• 9:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  I felt like if I had started one or two earlier, I could have like, you know, it would have given me more momentum. I feel like I started getting into that stride so close to the finale, like the challenge where my mom came.

• 9:12Joe Flamm?

  I was just gonna say that challenge where your mom came, we were in the kitchen next to each other.

• 9:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 9:16Joe Flamm?

  I remember tasting your dish and I was like, this is the best dish she's cooked. Like this is, this is a phenomenal dish.

• 9:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that's so sweet. But it's like, if I had, I feel like if I had gotten comfortable, like just own it and what you want to do. And so Rhoda's like coming into that on her own also.

• 9:36Joe Flamm?

  And it's that question of like, did she hit it early enough or did she hit it too soon? You know what I mean? And I think that's what we'll see in the finale from her.

• 9:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  And so I think for her to win, like, what do you think she needs to do?

• 9:47Joe Flamm?

  She's got to keep that hot hand, right? She's got to not overthink it and be like, this is what got me here. I need to not change. I found my spot and I gotta stay on it and just push that harder. Like I cannot veer off right now. I think that's the biggest thing with her. If she can just be like, I need to stay exactly the course I'm on and I just need to run harder at it. I think if she does that, that's like her best avenue as long as she doesn't overthink it.

• 10:16Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I feel like Rhoda and Sheri have a similar path in that way where Sheri started leaning more into the like Caribbean Latin cuisine. When she started doing better, like her food was always solid, but she was just in the middle. Nothing was standing out until she really started leaning more into that.

• 10:37Joe Flamm?

  Right. And I, and I think like Sheri is the one, if you looked at, you know what I mean? Just straight resumes. Like Sheri might have the edge, like Rhoda's resume is really, really good too and really strong. And you know, she's worked at serious places, but I feel like Sheri as far as like longevity and how long she's worked at places, like you could tell from her food, like she is super technical. So you know, she has like all the shit in the bag of like, you know what I mean? Give me four, you know, five, whatever, how many courses they do this year, three of the best dishes. That shit's gonna look Michelin. You know what I mean? You know, the plateups are gonna be visually stunning. You know, like the technique's gonna be super sound. It's just, I think with her,

• 11:19Joe Flamm?

  the biggest thing is like, will she be able to rope in that perspective in a cohesive way across a full menu?

• 11:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I think the, the biggest mistake that Sheri can make would be to lean too much on technique as opposed to the narrative and the flavors of the cuisine that she started cooking more recently, like the akaraje, like that's like, you know, an Afro Brazilian fritter, like that she did that with the local October beans on that challenge was brilliant. It was brilliant. And she's leaning into Brazilian cuisine. She did the mafungo in the one before that, like she's leaning into like Latin culture and cuisine. So she needs to focus more on that.

• 12:06Joe Flamm?

  I think if she can take that technique and use it to tell her story, I think she might have the biggest arsenal of any of the three. Like honestly, because it's like, you know, super high level. So it's like, just like, can she be cohesive? You know what I mean? And I think that's what's going to make or break her. Because I think like, you know, like skill wise, there's no doubt.

• 12:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I love that all three of them have this, like they have different cultural perspectives on it. So you know, in the finale, it's going to be three different types of cuisine, three different types of perspective and flavor profiles being put up. So it's going to come down to like, who executes their flavor profile the best and the technique the best.

• 13:01Joe Flamm?

  Moving off of the people themselves, but moving into the finale in general, they're on the same kind of timeline we are, where we were, where it's like, they didn't go home.

• 13:12Joe Flamm?

  They got a few days down and they're gonna go finale.

• 13:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, yeah. Like a lot of seasons, even this last season when Tristan won, they had a month off.

• 13:21Joe Flamm?

  Right. So you got a month to work on a menu.

• 13:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  We did not get that and they didn't get that.

• 13:23Joe Flamm?

  You can do R and D, you can test, you can research, you can, you know, you can breathe for a second. So they're going in quick, which I think is like, I think like, like for the two of us and like knowing you, you know what I mean, as well as I do now, and just even how we do the podcast, right? We both prepared very different ways. I may, don't let me think about it too much.

• 13:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  You take naps. You nap.

• 13:48Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. If we were in high school together, you would be the one who they were like, oh, we're gonna give you an extra 20 minutes to study for the test. You'd be like, oh, great. I got 20 more minutes to study for the test. I'd be like, what am I, I would be sitting there like, what am I supposed to do for 20 minutes? Cause I'm, I didn't study for this test either way and I'm not gonna do it.

• 14:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  I, I know what you would do for that 20 minutes, Joe. You would nod the fuck off like you did when we were getting ready for Restaurant Wars and the, I was like, is this dude taking a fucking nap right now? Like, are you kidding me? I couldn't even sleep like the night before because my brain is just going a million miles an hour. And I think that's what differentiates, I think, going into the finale. I think the calmer you are, the clearer your vision, the better you'll execute. If you're still working things over in your head, you're still tinkering. Like Gail Simmons, when she was, you know, on the pod and said, some people are tinkerers. I'm a tinkerer. And if you're still tinkering and thinking through what you need to change come finale day, you're kinda screwed.

• 14:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  You need to be clear, calm, and execute.

• 14:49Joe Flamm?

  Looking back at ours, I think like, the thing we both did really, really well. And I think, you know, I'm, I'm looking at your menu right now and I haven't looked at your menu in a long time.

• 14:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God. Where, where do you see, oh my God. Oh, wow.

• 15:03Joe Flamm?

  I, I had it pulled up. I have every sources.

• 15:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thanks, producers.

• 15:06Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, shout out Jordan. Um, but.

• 15:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  And Sean, hell yeah.

• 15:09Joe Flamm?

  But it's just like, you know, your spoon bread with the sea urchin, and then you did the octopus, then the cheer wine braised short rib with the black eyed peas, and then the banana pudding.

• 15:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 15:19Joe Flamm?

  The through line. Is perfect, right? So I think like that was what made ours like such a great battle.

• 15:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. And you're not the only one that can pull up a menu, Joe. I've got yours here now. So I'm looking, I remember the tuna crudo with veal. So that was like your reverse vitello tonato, which I thought was brilliant to do the tuna crudo with that like emulsified veal fat sauce, the tortellini in brodo, and you use that burnt flour, the, the grana arso. And then for your like main, you did the steak. It was, was it manza, manzo?

• 15:54Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, manzo de Colorado.

• 15:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay. Oh, shout out to Colorado. And then dessert, you did the torta di nonna. And so like yours, your menu had a clear through line, a clear narrative. It showed where you had been. It showed your experience. It showed the background and it was like a concise vision of kind of like elevated home Italian cooking. It was like, this is what you would eat on a trip in Italy and here's Joe's versions of it. And then our next course is you had the tortellini in brodo.

• 16:26Joe Flamm?

  So, and that was one where it's like, I was doing a version of that dish. And then when Sasso got eliminated, remember we had to order our pantry when we were the final three.

• 16:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 16:37Joe Flamm?

  So everything he had ordered was up for grabs that you and I could take, but it was way more advantageous to me because he ordered, you know what I mean? Like most of the shit I wanted.

• 16:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  A lot of Italian ingredients.

• 16:49Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. So one of the things he had was the grana arso flour. And so it was like, oh, it's like, yeah. And so like that dish I had never made.

• 16:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Were you happy with the way it came out?

• 17:00Joe Flamm?

  Yeah. And I mean, like, you know, I think also, yeah, it was, it came out incredibly. And I was fortunate, you know, I had, you know, like Joe, it's sous chef who like knew. How to do the same things.

• 17:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:13Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean?

• 17:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Sasto was like, like so technically like Seeger, like so technically sound, like had so much information that I was like, I wanted to pick for my sous chefs, like, you know, we had had me, Carrie and Fati had had like some challenges together and like kind of bonded. And so I wanted to pick them. And then it was like, we're picking our sous chefs. And it was just like, well, we haven't had time to R and D and research and Chris knows this cuisine a lot better. So I'm gonna pick Chris Scott because we have that similar, kind of like you picking Joe Sasto, me picking Chris Scott was like, okay, I know how to channel this flavor profile with him. He's got my back because he knows this food.

• 17:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then Carrie knows the altitude side of cooking. So I was like, she's my help in the, you know, in the fact that I'm doing two braised things, like why I chose that is still blows my mind. It's like Tom said, like the decisions people make sometimes are wild. And that was wild, but I knew I needed Carrie to execute altitude because of the menu I selected.

• 18:18Joe Flamm?

  Right. And I picked Fati and I will tell you this, and this is, this is the God's honest truth. So Fati and I were kicked off together. Then she came to the, you know, the sad hotel. So like Fati and I hung out for the week and we were out like, you know, we were hanging out every day, like her and I would go walk and get coffee, you know, we'd go to the bar or whatever. Like, and we were out one night. She was like, hey, like you and I never got to be on a team together. We never got to cook together. And she goes, when you go back, she goes, when you get to the finale, you have to pick me as your sous chef. And I was like, well, I go, if I go back, if I make it to the finale, she goes, no. She goes, you're going back. She goes, you're going to go to the finale. And she just goes, and you're going to pick me as your sous chef.

• 18:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh.

• 19:00Joe Flamm?

  I was like, I was like, all right, it's a deal. So it was like, I knew, I knew I was picking her.

• 19:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 19:06Joe Flamm?

  And I was like, whatever. You know what I mean? I'm like, I just want to cook with her.

• 19:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know what I mean? Like, it'll be fun. Well, even if nothing else, I'm like, we're gonna have a fun ass.

• 19:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  We had so much fun before you two both got kicked off. Like, we had so much fun hanging out. You, me and Fati would sometimes like, you know, Have a glass of wine and sit on the porch or sit on the floor, seeing Disney movies. Like, man, good times. And I'm so glad you picked her for the finale because that just meant that we all got to spend more time together in the kitchen. And I remember when you had Luca, she sent you that onesie. That said, my dad, one top chef. And you called me, you were like, did you send me this? I was like, absolutely not. No, that is, that is a hundred percent Fatima. I did not. I would never send you something to brag about beating me. That is Fati all the way. It was so cute.

• 19:50Joe Flamm?

  Oh, my God.

• 19:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  The banana pudding and your dessert, they both got mad at us for how we named our desserts.

• 20:05Joe Flamm?

  Right. And I don't remember why yours wasn't a banana pudding. Cause was it the, was the pudding yuzu? Was that the problem? It was like, there was too much yuzu?

• 20:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Tom said that banana pudding, you have more banana flavor. And we're like, and even Gail had to stand up and say, no, it's typically a vanilla custard. A vanilla flavored pudding. It's not a banana flavored pudding or custard. Like it's, it's got a tinge of citrus, but it's not, you know, it's like, there was still that layer of bananas and I made a sablé crust out of vanilla wafers, like blitz those in the food processor and use that as my flour to make like, more like a patsoucray kind of base for it. Made the custard. So it's like, you know, you've got that crisp crust. You've got the vanilla custard. It was like vanilla bean paste, a bit of yuzu.

• 20:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I guess, yeah, to, to Tom, the yuzu was the star as opposed to the banana, but it's still a banana pudding. Cause you've got the slices of banana. You got some brulee bananas on top. I don't know. But you know, you have to nitpick. And then what did he say about your dessert that was not?

• 21:10Joe Flamm?

  This is what happened. So I made a torta di nonna, which is like, it's a super classic Italian cake. But like, I didn't make torta di nonna at all. It's like a brown cake. Sometimes you put ricotta in it. It's just like pine nuts on top. It's super, super simple.

• 21:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay.

• 21:24Joe Flamm?

  Little powdered sugar. Now.

• 21:27Joe Flamm?

  I know this, that that's what that is. And I'm like, well, how many people know that? And then we get to the finale and a fucking Nancy Silverton.

• 21:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, the queen of Italian cuisine.

• 21:40Joe Flamm?

  And that's like, I'm like, I'm, I am cooked.

• 21:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's right. I forgot you was up there.

• 21:46Joe Flamm?

  I was like, I cannot. And I was like, I'll call it this because this is a cute name and my grandma was here and you know what I mean? Like blah, blah. And then I, you know, they're like, oh, and we'll have Nancy Silverton here. And it's like, I should not have named that that.

• 21:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 21:59Joe Flamm?

  I was like, I thought.

• 22:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, they're big on what you call dishes. Like naming is important to the judges.

• 22:03Joe Flamm?

  And Italians are crazy about it too, is the thing. You know what I mean? Like especially like the old school ones, the Tony Batuato's, the Nancy Silvertons. It's very, you can do it, but don't call it this if it's not that, right?

• 22:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  I see. Okay.

• 22:16Joe Flamm?

  Don't call it a carbonara if it's got peas in it. You know what I mean? Don't call it, you know, I mean, like, because it's not, it's not a carbonara.

• 22:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 22:23Joe Flamm?

  So it was one of those things that it was like, I made that cake because that was the only pastry recipe I showed up with. That was a pastry recipe that a chef I worked with at Girl on the Goat used to make was that brown sugar cake. And I was like, I love that brown sugar cake. It was one, it's one of my favorite cakes. And it's like super chewy and like, and I was like, and I knew how to make it and I practiced making it before I went with my pastry chef Joey at Spiaja. And so I was like, I felt really good about like, I can make this cake. This is the only thing I know how to bake besides biscuits. Like this is all I got. And I knew that I could like add anything to it. It was a perfect base layer, right? So I was like, if we have good berries, if we have carbos, if we have whatever, this will be a perfect base layer to do any sort of baking thing that I do.

• 23:06Joe Flamm?

  But the funny thing with that was, so I bought enough stuff. The ingredients for that were super cheap because it's like brown sugar flour.

• 23:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, God, ingredient costs.

• 23:14Joe Flamm?

  You know, and so I bought enough to make four cakes. And I needed one because we were cooking, I think for 12 people maybe.

• 23:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  But at altitude, you always like, let me buy extra because baking can go sideways.

• 23:27Joe Flamm?

  Right. I'm going to buy enough to make four. So like Fati's whole thing, I was like, Fati, I just need you to make this cake, make this cake beautiful, handle the dessert. She's like, you know, you know, of course, don't worry. She goes.

• 23:39Joe Flamm?

  Oh, for three of the first three.

• 23:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, no. Was it because of the altitude?

• 23:43Joe Flamm?

  Yes, and they were coming out aged like not even remotely salvageable like bricks.

• 23:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, man.

• 23:48Joe Flamm?

  Rock hard. Like, we couldn't, we would have had to buzz them and make a crust. Like, they were.

• 23:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  I remember she was in that back kitchen for, and I was like, girl, you okay over here? She was like, I gotta get this right. I gotta get this right. Like, I don't know what's going on. I think Carrie even like was talking to her about how to like do it for altitude.

• 24:09Joe Flamm?

  Right. Finally, with the last one, I forget what we adjusted and we're like, we'll adjust this, we'll send this. And she's like, I don't know, Joe. And I'm like, well, whatever. I'm like, I don't know either. So if it doesn't work, I'm like, it's not like I would have done it right. I was like, so just send it. And like, we gotta hope for the best. And hopefully, we have something that we can serve.

• 24:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Fourth time's a charm.

• 24:28Joe Flamm?

  Well, in the fourth time, it's like, we didn't even have the full amount. So like, our cake was like thinner than we wanted it to be. So it was like a little bit chewier and like luckily, it's still like tasted really good and the texture ended up being like kind of cool. But it was like, you know, it had nothing to do with tortilla date. No, no.

• 24:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that's crazy. And that's why I picked banana pudding because I didn't want to bake a cake for the finale. I had like one base cake recipe in my arsenal that I could like add cocoa powder to or keep, you know, change the flavor profile. But I was so scared of baking a cake for the finale that I was like, let me do this banana pudding because nothing has to rise. I just need the custard to set. I just need to bake a crust and like slice up some bananas. I'm like, call it a day. So I felt more confident doing that. But it's funny that the dessert, they were both like, the desserts didn't win it for either of us at all. It didn't, it was not a,

• 25:21Joe Flamm?

  No, that one was.

• 25:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Not a plus for either of our teams.

• 25:24Joe Flamm?

  You know, I remember my, my entree dish, the manzo, the one thing Tom was like, oh, it feels like you over rested this. And I was like, in the time, like in the real time, I was like, I didn't fucking over rest that. You know what I mean?

• 25:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  But altitude.

• 25:35Joe Flamm?

  But altitude sure is, you know, shit did. Because it's like, I didn't realize that like resting meat at, you know, 11,000 feet of altitude was different. And that it like dried out like crazy because it's like in Chicago, it's like you rest a steak for an hour. It's like an overrest.

• 25:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 25:53Joe Flamm?

  It might get cold.

• 25:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  I didn't know that's a thing. Yeah.

• 25:55Joe Flamm?

  It might get cold, but it's not going to overrest. And he was like, oh, you overrested this. And I'm just like, I've never, I'd never heard of it.

• 26:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. And it's the altitude effect.

• 26:05Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean?

• 26:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. And it's, that's how I felt about the octopus. It's like, you, you lay it out. It's got some of the cooking liquid. It's still got the skin on the outside because you blanched the octopus a couple of times to set that outer fatty layer around the tentacle. And so I'm like, oh, it's covered tightly in plastic wrap. It's in the walk-in. Why would it dry out? It like, it never even occurred to me that that's a thing. I'm so glad I kept my short ribs in the braising liquid because that would have been like mealy and dry and gross if I hadn't. Also in the finale, I kind of forgot about like, you talked about the ingredient costs. I forgot that when we got to Whole Foods, I don't know

• 26:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  what ingredients were taking the over budget, but you were so nice, Joe. Like you bought me my remaining ingredients that were over so that I didn't have to sacrifice some of my ingredients that I needed for the menu. And I don't know, like, thank you so much for that. That was, that was so nice of you.

• 27:04Joe Flamm?

  Well, I think it was something important. I think it was like your grits were the last thing or something. It was something that like you needed too.

• 27:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  Which, nobody in Colorado has grits. That was the hardest thing to find.

• 27:15Joe Flamm?

  Going into that finale, I was like, one, I can't believe I'm here. Like, I wanted to get to here to run the whole gauntlet, have the full experience. Say I've been there. Say I've been to the, you know, I mean, we were literally to the mountaintop.

• 27:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  On the mountaintop, right?

• 27:28Joe Flamm?

  But it's like, it was just like one of those things where it's like, it can't be how I win. Like if I win, I want to, you know, be like, I cooked my best and my best was better than your best today. And I don't want that to be because like you couldn't get what you needed.

• 27:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 27:44Joe Flamm?

  In my head, it was like, it was never about me beating you. It was like me cooking to my absolute utmost that day, you cooking to yours.

• 27:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I probably would have spun out. If I couldn't get all my ingredients, I probably would have spun out about. What replacements do I have to get? What kind of substitutes do I have to get? And it's, you know, you said like, I'm only going home for my food, not because she couldn't get the ingredients that she needed. And I, I respected that so much. And I think like that we had already become friends throughout the season. And that was one of those moments where it's like, hell yeah. And after you won, it was like, here's a beer, let's talk.

• 28:25Joe Flamm?

  You would have done the exact same. That's who you are. You know what I mean? That's who we are. Like you're my dog. Like, I'm not gonna, you know what I mean? Be like, oh yeah, now, now we're not friends because we're the.

• 28:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 28:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. Yeah. That was such a cool time. You know, it was like, I remember before the finale, you were chilling and I was like, I need to chill. And so I called my old boss, I called Chef Repair because I needed some zen. And I know that my mother would just be like, oh, you still haven't gotten your shit together? So I was like, I need some, I need a convoys now, not, not Susan telling me I'm messing up, which helped though, but I called Repair to get that kind of zen and kind of go over the menu and the progression of it and all that. And then I thought about it. I was like, oh, we did have a little bit of time to test the twill. Remember in the hotel? We had that kitchen in the hotel suite the day before.

• 29:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  And so I was trying the twill to go over the sea urchin dish because at altitude, I didn't know if it would work the same. And I couldn't get it to work the same as I did in New York. I was like, wait chef, by the way, like, remember the twill? I can't get it to work. He was like, oh, well, are you whisking it in the pan? That's how you get the bubbles and even I'm like, boom, this is, my mother could not have provided that advice. Like, thank you chef.

• 29:45Joe Flamm?

  I talked to Tony and I just remember it was like, you know, Tony's, you know, the most chill. And I was like, hey man, he's like, hey, how's it going? I'm like, good, you know, about to cook in the finale.

• 29:59Joe Flamm?

  He's like, that's, that's just incredible. You know what I mean? Like, like, that's like, just like, I don't think we talked anything about food.

• 30:07Joe Flamm?

  He's like, you're gonna do great, man. I was like, oh, thanks, chef. Like, how are you? You good? He's like, oh, I'm doing great. Everything's great, man. Everybody's okay. Don't worry about us, you know? And I think, you know, one of the biggest things Tony said to me was before I left, we sat down and we were talking and he said, listen, you're going away. You're going to be gone for two months. He goes, you can't worry about here, knowing that like, hey, I'm going to do this thing. And it was like, having him say to me like, I got your back. Don't worry about it. Your priority is my priority right now. And that was, that was huge for me.

• 30:40Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's a hidden skill set, being able to like, manage the stress. Like, yes, you have to manage the time because like, people ask all the time, is the clock real? Yes, it's the realest part.

• 30:54Joe Flamm?

  You know, I don't know, I don't know what's real in this world anymore with everything and AI and all that, but I can tell you sure as shit that that clock is as real as it gets.

• 31:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. When they say they give you 30 minutes to cook, it is 30 minutes, no more, no less. And what you do in that 30 minutes is up to you. And depending on how you go into the challenge, that 30 minutes can feel like an hour or it can feel like two minutes. So you have to manage the time, but you also have to manage the stress. And that's probably one of the harder things. And so I think like Lawrence, Rhoda and Sheri, they all seem to be in a pretty zen place. I feel like Lawrence, he's been in his wheelhouse for a while. Like, he's been in his bag. He knows what he's doing. But that, that's stress management because they don't give you a ton of time to talk to friends and family and get that grounding and decompress.

• 31:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  So like, oh, you'll appreciate this because, you know, we got to call like our loved ones every few days, right? And so they record the calls and there's certain things you're not, you have to sign in the agreement. You cannot tell people that you went off. You can't tell people how you're doing, how this challenge went. It's not like grabbing a beer, you know, or having a drink with your significant other after work and like going through the day. So I'm talking to Steven and we talked before. I was like, okay, we'll have a code and our code, our code will be if I'm doing poorly, I say the Cubs are up. If I'm doing well, the Sox are winning, the White Sox. And that was our code. So whenever we talked on the phone and I was on the bottom for a challenge,

• 32:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  I'm like, man, the Cubs are looking strong right now. And then when I started finally doing better, I'm like, man, the White Sox are finally back on top. You know, it's, it's getting better.

• 32:43Joe Flamm?

  So our code was before we left and you probably weren't following it, but before we left that year, the Sox were on an absolute fucking tear before we shipped out to Colorado. So my code with Hillary was the same thing.

• 32:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God, are you serious?

• 33:00Joe Flamm?

  I go, if I ask about the White Sox, I go, it means I'm still in it. If I ask about the Cubs, if I say, hey, how are the White Sox doing? You know what I mean? They're still out, you know, they're still out of heater.

• 33:12Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh my God, I did not know that we had the same code with.

• 33:16Joe Flamm?

  I go, if I ask, you know, like, how are the Cubs, the standings? I go, you know, it's over.

• 33:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right, right. Oh my God. How crazy is that?

• 33:25Joe Flamm?

  First call I called Hillary, I was like, hey, how are the Sox doing? She's like, I don't know, I have no idea. I'm not paying attention to baseball right now. Like, how are you? And I'm like, Jesus Christ, lady, like, you just talked about this.

• 33:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  We have a code, Hill.

• 33:36Joe Flamm?

  Right, we had a plan.

• 33:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe, we actually, we have some questions from the audience that people wanted to know about the finale and how we're seeing this finale and things that happened to us in our finale. Okay, so I'll ask you the first question. What if you had to do that meal today? What would you cook? And who would you bring in as sous chefs?

• 34:06Joe Flamm?

  If I had to do it, it would depend on so much I like place, right? Cause that finale meal is such a like, you know, it's a story of your journey on the show. So it's, it's hard to say that. But as sous chefs, it's like, I got, I got the squad of squads. You know what I mean? Like I could bring any of my CDCs, my culinary director, and it would be like, it would be on. Like they're all so dialed. They all know like me so well in a kitchen now. They know when I say something, what I mean, they know how I move. They know what ingredients I didn't mention, but I definitely want. Like they know how to fill all the, all the space that I leave, like perfectly. You know, it would be tough to pick from them.

• 34:49Joe Flamm?

  We'd have to draw straws or something because like, and that's the thing. It's like, they'd all want to go. You know what I mean? I'd have to like, you know, you think of like, you know, Trevor and Taco and Christine and Anna. They'd be fist fighting in the alley for a spot.

• 35:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, they would.

• 35:01Joe Flamm?

  And they'd all be phenomenal.

• 35:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  If I had to do, I might do the same meal, maybe swap out lobster for the, for the protein at the end. I don't know, but I, I was really proud of that. I would have executed it better.

• 35:13Joe Flamm?

  I think you had to go meat better.

• 35:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, with such seafood heavy.

• 35:17Joe Flamm?

  It would have been weird if you went an all seafood menu on the top of a mountain in a landlocked.

• 35:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes. And then I probably would have changed the dessert. So the, I would have done the banana pudding, the yuzu. I would have kept up yuzu banana pudding, maybe leaned back on the yuzu a little. But I would have probably done it more like a Napoleon with puff pastry and then do like a Napoleon. But for sous chefs, the two people, I loved Chris and Carrie, and they came through so big in that. But today I would have brought Lana Lego Marcini. She was on the season that Tristan won.

• 35:55Joe Flamm?

  I met her in New York.

• 35:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep, she's amazing and she knows me and she knows like, she worked at Danielle. She's worked in fine dining. She's got it. And then the other sous chef would be Khalil Hasty. I've known him, he staged at La Bernardine when I was like the chef de partie of Hot Apps. And I've known him throughout his career. And now he is the executive chef of Kwame's new restaurant, Maroon in Las Vegas.

• 36:21Joe Flamm?

  Oh, cool.

• 36:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  I introduced them because Khalil came with me to the family reunion two years ago as my sous chef. And Kwame was getting ready to open a restaurant in Vegas and he's like, wait, wait, he's, he's the chef Tornant of the wind, working with Chris Lee, like, oh, well, let me, let me talk with him. I was like, I don't have a restaurant, so I have no right to keep him. So that would be the only thing I would switch there. But another question we have is, have you or will you ever put a variation of your finale cook on a menu? And Joe, I know you have, because when I go to Rosemary, I have that Vitello Tonato.

• 36:59Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I have, I've done that one. I've probably done most of them, honestly, at this point. But yeah, the, the only one that still sits on the menu today is the, you know, Tonno Vitellato. That was a dish that took me a year and a half to figure out how to make. And you know what I mean? The first time I remember I made it for Tony, I was like, I put it up for him and I was like, hey, what do you think chef? And he tried it and he told me, he goes, he goes, he goes, this is going to be a dish that follows you around. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you're going to make this dish for a long time. He's like, this is special. And I was like, okay, the old man's just blowing smoke. And you know, that was

• 37:37Adrienne Cheatham?

  But he's not, it's phenomenal.

• 37:39Joe Flamm?

  You know, per usual, Tony was 1,000% right.

• 37:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, yes. I do not have a restaurant to put any of these on a menu, but when I've done pop ups, I've done

• 37:48Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, you did about the pop ups. I remember, I've eaten them at pop ups. And I believe over on 53rd Street.

• 37:54Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes, at Promontory.

• 37:56Joe Flamm?

  Little spoon bread.

• 37:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 37:59Joe Flamm?

  The life.

• 38:06Joe Flamm?

  What's your best kind of behind the scenes, Top Chef story you got for us?

• 38:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, so this is something that I have never shared. There was a challenge earlier in the season. I was working with another contestant and the idea for the dish was to have a smoked element. Let's just say that. And it wasn't my idea to have the smoked element. So when we're breaking up the responsibilities, it was like, okay, you wanted to smoke this. So do you want me to do it or do you want to? It's like, no, I'll do that. You do all the garnish. Cool. So I'm doing the garnish and all that. And then my partner comes to me and says, how do you cold smoke?

• 38:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I covered the mics. I covered my partner's mic and I covered my mic because I don't want to put somebody on blast for something like that. I was like, like that, yes, I could have totally been in confession, talking trash and done all this, but absolutely did not. Marcus taught me that trick. He was like, you know, cover the mic. If there's something you don't want them to hear. So I covered both of our mics and said, you wanted to smoke this. You said you wanted to do the cold smoked and you don't know how. I was like, okay, so do you want me to do the garnish and the proteins now? Cause like now I have to step in on your part of the dish. So I did. And, you know, trying to make it all happen with like 15 minutes left on the clock or whatever it

• 39:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  was, was wild. And I have never told anybody that. And when we went to interviews after the episode, the producers for the rest of the season.

• 39:54Joe Flamm?

  For that one.

• 39:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  Sure was. I mean, the dish idea overall was my dish idea and I take responsibility. It was a, it was a bad idea. It was a bad idea, but the fact that the execution didn't help it because of the stress and the running around like a chicken with everybody's heads cut off, trying to figure this part that was supposed to be the biggest part out at the last minute was tough. And in interview, they're like, well, this person is talking trash about you. And I was like, I'm not going to do it. I am not talking trash about another chef on television. I do not roll like that. Wow. Now, if I had to go back, I might.

• 40:33Joe Flamm?

  Well.

• 40:34Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, but that is, Joe, that is my Top Chef walking confession that I, I never thought I would share that story. So.

• 40:43Joe Flamm?

  Wow.

• 40:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 40:44Joe Flamm?

  That's phenomenal.

• 40:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  You gotta have, you gotta have a good one too. I'm sure.

• 40:51Joe Flamm?

  So I don't know if I ever told you this one or not. So like I mentioned earlier, in real time, Fatih and I got kicked off a day apart, right? So you don't know this because you never got kicked off. What happens is you get kicked off, there's somebody waiting for you. They take you, they put you in a van and they take you to everybody else.

• 41:10Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's like taken.

• 41:11Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, so we were kicked off already. So you guys were doing the stadium challenge that day. It was the Rocker Stadium Challenge, right? So you guys were doing that. So we got to go out to the Stanley. So we go out to the Stanley and our handler is with us, has us all in the minivan. And she, we kind of talked her into taking us there and she wasn't really supposed to. And so we're driving back, we get stuck in traffic and she's responsible for picking up the next person kicked off. So they're calling her, they're like, hey, we're at judges table. Hey, there's gonna be someone soon. And she's like, oh shit, you know what I mean? Like, I'm supposed to be there, whatever. And we're like, we're too far away

• 41:53Joe Flamm?

  for her to take us to the hotel and get to stage in time. And I'm like, listen, listen, listen. I'm like, first off, I'm like, who got kicked off? She's like, I can't tell you. I was like, we're gonna find out in an hour. He's so messy. I go, I go, so just tell us who it is. She's like, it's Fati. We're all like, oh. And I'm like, all right, all right, listen to me. And at this point, it's pitch dark out, right? And you remember the soundstage was out in the middle of nowhere. Right? Where we cooked at, it was just a big warehouse. So I was like, this is what we'll do. I go, just pull up. I go, drop us off a half block away. We're gonna hide in the bushes. I go, none of us will leave. We're not gonna go anywhere. Like, we're all just gonna hide in the bushes.

• 42:36Joe Flamm?

  I go, go get Fati, pick her up and pull around back and get us. And so she's like, I can't do that. I go, you're gonna get fired if you don't do it. Cause you don't have time to drop us off. I'm like, so you have to do this. I'm like, this is your only option. So she's like, all right, all right, fine. Like, you guys have to stay there. And I was like, dude, totally cool. She's like, you cannot tell anyone about this. I was like, I won't. And I haven't till now. So she drops us off. We're literally on a random street corner. Outside of Denver, outside the warehouse, hiding in the bushes. It's like, make any other person, you know, like, brother, whoever else, you know, to be, so we're like hiding in the bushes of the dark. I'm like, man, if a cop pulls up right now, we will never,

• 43:21Joe Flamm?

  none of us have an ID on us. None of us, you know what I mean, have any. So she goes, she picks up Fati. Obviously Fati's super upset. She's crying. She gets in the van. So this girl doesn't tell her anything, pulls up the van, they take a, you know, she takes a random right and stops the van and Fati's like, what are you doing? I want to go back to the hotel. And she's like, hold on. And then we all like pop out of the bushes, Fati opens the door. We're like, wow, they go and she just like loses her mind. She goes running out of the van. She's like crying and laughing. And it was just like, it was so funny. And she's like, this is the best surprise ever. We're like, come on. And we ended up, she's like, I have to take you guys back to the hotel now.

• 44:04Joe Flamm?

  We're like, there's no fucking way we're going back to the hotel right now. It made her take us out and we went out, we went out to like three in the morning that night to party with Fati. The second she got kicked off, it was, it was like, it was one of the most like hilarious, like Fati's face would like, she saw us like come out of the dark. She was just like, what are you doing?

• 44:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, that makes me so happy. I love that.

• 44:30Joe Flamm?

  But it was, uh, it was, it was epic. It was one of those nights I will, I will think about forever. You know what I mean? Just, uh, really, really fun. And just, you know what I mean? Uh, I don't think anybody got fired for it.

• 44:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Good. I'm glad and I'm glad.

• 44:46Joe Flamm?

  There were other things later people got fired for, but that's.

• 44:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 44:49Joe Flamm?

  That's for, that's for a different day.

• 44:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's for a different walk in confession. Joe, this has been a blast. Top Chef finale is always, it's an intense thing and I feel like there are very few people who can relate to that. So glad we get to share in this PTSD together, breaking down this season's finale. Well, getting, getting to the season's finale, we're not there yet.

• 45:15Joe Flamm?

  We'll talk on the other side of it and see how it shapes out.

• 45:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Can't wait to see what happens.

• 45:19Joe Flamm?

  Looking forward to it. I'll see you.

• 45:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Peace out, Joe.

• 45:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is it for this episode of the chef's cut. Let us know in the comments what you think of the final three chefs and who has what it takes to win. Drop a comment on YouTube or go to the chef's cut pod on Instagram to join the conversation. For Joe Flamm, I'm Adrian Cheatham and this has been the chef's cut, life beyond the past.