Behind the Scenes Minis: Bad Goals and Spirit Clothes

Tracy discusses film ratings and the bias behind them. Talk then turns to clothing in the afterlife. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:34Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx, listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:05Speaker 02

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• 1:35Speaker 03

  Attention Chicken Nugget fans. Burger King heard that a lot of you didn't like the old Chicken Nuggets, so they got to work and reinvented them. These new Chicken Nuggets are their tastiest, crispiest, juiciest nuggets ever. And because better Chicken Nuggets deserve better sauces, they've reinvented several of their sauces, and they created a brand new one. The new special savory sauce, which is only available for a limited time at participating US restaurants. Don't wait around. You gotta try the new Burger King Chicken Nuggets today.

• 2:06Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 2:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson. And I'm Holly Frey. Today, we returned to the 504 sit-ins to talk about some of the specific people involved in it, which we haven't done before. Yeah. And also talk more about the Rehabilitation Act of 1973, because the vast majority of what people talk about with that today is that language at the end. Yeah. That's about Section 504. There's not a lot of discussion about the tone of the overall Rehabilitation Act of 1973. To me, there's a very 1970s piece of legislation. Right. It's a lot of vibes in that legislation.

• 2:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, like, I mean, like we said, there's stuff in it that was good. It is good to have funding for things like interpreters for deaf people and requirements for government agencies to have interpreters who can talk to people who need an interpreter, right? All that part is good. Yeah. But the whole underpinning is basically that the goal is to, quote, rehabilitate people. Right. And the goal is to have a vocational outcome, meaning a job. And that is not, the law acknowledges that that's not necessarily going to work

• 3:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  for everyone. Some people cannot work, for whatever reason. There's not an accessibility plan that will make work accessible to some people. Yeah. But the vibe of the law is definitely that the goal is a vocational plan for as many people as possible. Yeah.

• 4:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  I watched the movie Crip Camp. Yeah. Over the weekend, because it has crossed my radar many times, and I just had not had the opportunity to watch it. And so since it was relevant to this episode, I didn't realize how relevant it was to the episode, because I didn't realize how much the movie was going to talk about beyond the years of the people at the camp, right? It's a really good movie. It's a really good documentary. I-

• 4:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Noticed after I have watched it that its MPAA rating is an R. And I found that frustrating. It is not an R rated movie to me.

• 4:50Holly Frey?

  Do you know why? Does it, you did it say like for the following reasons?

• 4:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  That says something like, uh, some strong language and sexual situations. And I, I will freely admit, I am not a mo-, I'm not a person that assigns film ratings. That is not my job. I do not have all of the standards in front of me of what goes into those ratings. But there have been various past documentaries that have looked at biases in those ratings and how the same sexual situation will receive a stronger rating depending on who it's involved. Like who is it like? If there's a sex scene that involves a white man and a white woman,

• 5:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  that might be like a PG 13 rating. And functionally, the same scene involving

• 5:47Holly Frey?

  Yep.

• 5:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  two black men might, like that might be, oh, we gotta, we gotta rate this R.

• 5:52Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 5:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so my like gut response to this rating is that it was probably rated this way because there are a couple of different conversations about sexually transmitted diseases. And I think the idea

• 6:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  of disabled people being sexually whole, fulfilled people made reviewers uncomfortable.

• 6:19Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 6:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  And led to it being what I felt like was a harsher rating or a stronger rating.

• 6:26Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 6:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  Then after watching the movie, I really felt like it needed.

• 6:30Holly Frey?

  Yeah. There's also the like, I mean, ratings have long been problematic in a variety of ways. Because even, even in addition to the things that you just mentioned, like different. People being involved in that, leading to a different rating.

• 6:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 6:44Holly Frey?

  It also depends on what reviewers looked at it.

• 6:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, sure.

• 6:48Holly Frey?

  And their own biases and their own things they may or may not be squinky about. I mean, theoretically, they have training and they're objective enough in their job, but like, no one can remove all of their bias.

• 7:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 7:01Holly Frey?

  In any, any way, you know what I mean? None of us can.

• 7:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:04Holly Frey?

  We all have inherent biases. And so that also leads to another layer of like.

• 7:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 7:10Holly Frey?

  This isn't always fair and sometimes it doesn't make any sense.

• 7:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Yeah, I just felt like ultimately that was not an R rated movie to me. I mean, if you were gonna watch it with your kids and you maybe wanna have a conversation with your kids about topics like genital lice and conorrhea. I'm laughing because the conversations around it in the movie, some of them are hilarious. Like, there is just this candor about the fact that like, there was a crabs outbreak at the camp. And some of the discussion of it is funny and that's us laughing, but anyway.

• 7:46Holly Frey?

  See, I found myself laughing for the selfish reason of I never have to have these conversations with my cats. Like, there's a, there's a reason I'm not a parent and it's because I'm not equipped to be a parent.

• 7:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Holly Frey?

  I would not be a good one. And one of, one of the reasons is that I wouldn't be good at conversations like that.

• 8:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Something else that struck me about the movie, which, you know, this camp existed in the Catskills from, I think I said 1951 to 1977, something like that. And there's a lot of footage from the camp when it was in operation, recorded by different people. Some were filmmakers who went to the camp to record things, some were campers or staffers themselves who recorded things. So there's a lot of like, very 1970s footage from this camp. And one of the things that struck me is that like, this was a camp for disabled teenagers and a lot of the people on staff, some people on staff were not disabled, but some people on staff were. And still, a lot of the things in the camp, like the things they were having to do to

• 8:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  make things accessible, it's like, there was not a lift. To lift for people to go swimming.

• 8:53Holly Frey?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  Like to get into, I don't remember if it was a lake or a swimming pool, but whichever it was to get into it, people were physically lifting you into it.

• 9:03Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 9:03Tracy V. Wilson?

  People were physically being carried on to and off of buses because the buses did not have a lift or a wheelchair ramp or anything like that.

• 9:11Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 9:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so this is, you know, a time of history that, you know, I would be, I'm not quite old enough to remember the late 1970s because I would have been two and three years old. But when I got into my slightly older elementary years and then into my more adult years, seeing how many of those types of accessibility things have become more common? And then how many things there still are that are just thrown together?

• 9:45Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 9:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  Like in some ways, we've come a long way and in some ways really not.

• 9:50Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I think too, we have the benefit because we get to travel for work to foreign countries on occasion too. We also see like globally how things have and have not been handled.

• 10:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, for sure.

• 10:05Holly Frey?

  Which like is very eye opening. It's something that I will confess, I probably didn't think about enough.

• 10:11Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Holly Frey?

  Until my husband for a while worked for a company that provided and also enabled vehicles to be accessible. So like some of them where we will just sell you an accessible vehicle. But in other cases, people would be like, I have a car, I love my car, but now I cannot drive my car anymore because I have had like an accident or whatever. And, and I, or I've had a progressive illness and I can no longer drive it. And they would basically like convert that vehicle.

• 10:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 10:40Holly Frey?

  And so now everywhere we go, Brian is always like, that's not, that's not compliant. That's not compliant.

• 10:45Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 10:46Holly Frey?

  Like he points it out because he's hyper aware and now I have become much more aware about it.

• 10:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  Something I see often that I hate is people who park their cars in the striped off area that is for a wheelchair lift.

• 11:01Holly Frey?

  Red rage.

• 11:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Absolutely hate it.

• 11:03Holly Frey?

  It makes me so angry.

• 11:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  I also notice occasionally I'll be staying at a, at a hotel and for whatever reason, they will have put me in a room that is meant to be accessible.

• 11:14Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 11:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  And sometimes like it will just jump out at me how like, yeah, there's a grab bar in the bathroom.

• 11:22Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Tracy V. Wilson?

  But it's not in a place that would allow a person to transfer from a wheelchair to the toilet.

• 11:28Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 11:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  It's in a weird place that like, that's not helping anyone. Or I remember being in a room that was supposedly accessible one time and there was no way that a person who was using a wheelchair would have been able to get to the closet where their, where their clothes would go.

• 11:47Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 11:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  And it was like, there was no, there was not a wide enough passage around the bed. And it's like, there's so much of that stuff. So like there, there are places where like regulations have not been put into place correctly. Like places where it's like, we installed a grab bar and the grab bar is not a good place.

• 12:07Holly Frey?

  Yeah, it's like they're going, they're going through a checklist to retrofit a space that was never designed.

• 12:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Holly Frey?

  With that in mind, and it doesn't, technically they meet the requirements, but it doesn't really help anybody.

• 12:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  And then you have folks like my mom, whose needs are greater than what the requirement is.

• 12:25Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 12:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  So like traveling any distance away from home is really hard for my mom because she doesn't just need an accessible bathroom. The accessible bathroom needs to have enough room for a lift to fit into it, to transfer her from a chair to the toilet.

• 12:45Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 12:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  And even when she had more mobility and she, she was using a walker rather than using a power wheelchair, she was traveling with my dad one time and they stopped at a rest area and she went into the accessible stall and there was no way for her to get into the stall and get onto the toilet and also close the door behind her.

• 13:06Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 13:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  Which was number one, embarrassing.

• 13:09Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 13:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  And then number two, a stranger came in and decided that my mom needed help and would not take my mom's assurances that mom needed help. Uh, and this person who meant well, just it was worse than if my mom.

• 13:27Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 13:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Had just.

• 13:28Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 13:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh, been allowed to handle her own hygiene.

• 13:35Speaker 05

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 14:03Speaker 06

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 14:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hey, everybody. It's Tracy from Stuff You Missed in History Class. That's Alan Goya, a planning engineer at AT&T. He's talking about Intuit Dome, home of the Los Angeles Clippers, where every seat, screen, phone, and transaction is connected with AT&T fiber and 5G, defining the fan's experience. And Alan's master plan made it all possible.

• 14:26Speaker 06

  It was good arrival, anything that was already built. And that takes quite a bit of people and different teams to all be on the same page.

• 14:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 14:40Speaker 07

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 14:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  And after years of hard work and collaboration, it was opening night.

• 14:50Speaker 07

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data's flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 14:54Speaker 06

  With the fan's experience, it's incredible. It gave me a lot of pride.

• 14:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  AT&T, connecting fans to what they love. Connecting changes everything. AT&T.

• 15:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  So you're considering getting a home security system, but you want something that fits your space. Well, with ADT Blue, it's easy to customize a system that's right for you and set it up yourself. Just pick the kit and monitoring plan that makes sense for your home. Let's say you're worried about package theft. The ADT Plus app can walk you through setting up a new doorbell camera kit. Once it's installed, ADT Pros can help you keep tabs on it 24/7, or you can manage it yourself from the ADT Plus app. There are no long-term contracts, so you can change your monitoring plan whenever you want. The flexibility doesn't end there. You can add to your system as you need to with things like extra cameras or motion sensors. Life decisions are hard, but thanks to ADT Blue,

• 15:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  you can DIY trusted ADT home security in a snap. Head to ADT.com/BLU to build your system today. And to hear more about home protection and other grown up topics, check out new episodes of Grown Up Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 16:09Speaker 08

  Okay, Chicken Nugget fans, I've got huge news. The new Burger King Chicken Nuggets just dropped, and they are the crispiest, the juiciest, and the tastiest chicken nuggets ever at Burger King. Burger King heard that a lot of you didn't like the old chicken nuggets, so they got to work and reinvented them. To go along with the new chicken nuggets, a lot of the sauces were reinvented too, because better chicken nuggets deserve better sauces. We're talking new buffalo sauce, honey mustard, sweet and sour, and even a whole new option too, the new special savory sauce, which is only available for a limited time at participating US restaurants. I mean, you need to taste it all for yourself.

• 16:52Speaker 08

  This new chicken nugget, reinvented based on real feedback, is made with 100% white meat chicken and is now better than ever. You gotta try the new Burger King Chicken Nuggets and sauces today.

• 17:10Holly Frey?

  I will say, I have a cool version of this.

• 17:13Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 17:13Holly Frey?

  Of a retrofit that I saw.

• 17:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Holly Frey?

  At a resort where they had expanded the resort. And at that point, they had enough surplus rooms that they could retrofit one whole portion of it.

• 17:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 17:28Holly Frey?

  And what they did was to accommodate people like your mom, they combined two hotel rooms into one. So the bathroom was enormous and had tons of space.

• 17:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Holly Frey?

  And that way, like, and the doors were wide. And there was like ample room to maneuver around whatever kind of vehicle or assist lift you had. And I was just like, I know this isn't feasible for every hotel or resort.

• 17:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 17:54Holly Frey?

  But this is incredible. And I wish they, I hope they teach other places how to do this.

• 17:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Holly Frey?

  It was like, oh, this is all actual functioning things.

• 18:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 18:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  I read, I wish I could remember where this was, but I read an article somewhere that was about just really reimagining public restrooms.

• 18:15Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  Because there are a lot of people who need a restroom for a lot of different reasons. Like, there are parents who need to change a diaper and there are people who use wheelchairs or walkers and like need enough space and the ability to get on to and off, like all of this stuff. You know, maybe you have a job interview and you need to use the bathroom to change your clothes. Maybe you have a religious requirement to do some kind of like washing of your hands and face. Like, a lot of different reasons that people need to be in the bathroom. And it was envisioning this public bathroom space that would be able to meet all of these needs for all of these different people. And of course, it was like a spacious space that had privacy and had room for all of

• 19:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  these different purposes. And I was like, that bathroom seems so amazing to me and so unlikely to ever be implemented at scale. Because everybody wants to save money and have less room dedicated to those kinds of things.

• 19:17Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I mean, another area that gets problematic is not even in a public space, but like, there are huge tracts of neighborhood developments that were built during a period of time in the US when in real estate, you kept the bathrooms as small as you could to maximize the living areas of the home.

• 19:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 19:39Holly Frey?

  And those are really, really hard to retrofit because like,

• 19:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Holly Frey?

  there just is not a place to expand out a wall unless you lose two thirds of your kitchen or,

• 19:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 19:51Holly Frey?

  you know what I mean? Or, or give up a bedroom. And like, I think, and I hope, I mean, part of this is just like the McMansion of it all, right? That now, Even, you know, relatively middle of the road houses have almost palatial bathrooms in many cases.

• 20:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 20:07Holly Frey?

  But like, when I think about some of the ones, like the neighborhood where my husband grew up, the tiniest bathrooms on earth. And I remember thinking it when I first saw them, like, how would anybody get in here if they had any kind of

• 20:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 20:20Holly Frey?

  Like, even if they were on crutches temporarily, how would they, you know what I mean? Like, there are so many instances of spaces that are built like that, that are private places and not even public spaces that need to be considered.

• 20:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, Patrick and I have had a conversation, sort of, the conversation in that I have said, we need to think about where we are going to live when we get old.

• 20:45Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 20:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  Because there will be a time in our lives when we will not be able to manage these stairs.

• 20:51Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 20:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  And Patrick is like, we will have one of those chairlifts put in.

• 20:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I'm just like, babe, I don't think one of those chairlifts is actually going to work in this stairwell that was built almost 100 years ago. It seems unlikely to me. And, uh, you know, that's one of the things about buying a house that's more than 100 years old.

• 21:12Holly Frey?

  Yeah. I do have a friend who I met in the weirdest circumstance, quite accidentally in New York, but she is in her 70s. She lives in England in an, an old house. And last year, she's perfectly, like, she's spry as can be. She can get around anywhere right now.

• 21:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  Sure.

• 21:31Holly Frey?

  But she recognizes that's not always going to be the case, and it's sooner rather than later. And she doesn't want her kids to have to deal with figuring it out. So like, she put in her own elevator last year.

• 21:41Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 21:42Holly Frey?

  And she's like, in the future, when I need it, I have it. And right now, I can just enjoy it.

• 21:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 21:47Holly Frey?

  Right on.

• 21:48Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. A very long time ago, I had some friends who, who had a house built. For their family to live in. And they had that house built with the mindset of we're probably going to live here for our whole lives. And at some point, probably a parent will come live with us. And so they built a house to have enough space to do that and also to have an elevator that went from the first floor to the second floor of their home.

• 22:18Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  Which of course, you know, was incredibly smart, but also something that came with a lot of privilege to be able to afford a house that size with an elevator in it.

• 22:27Holly Frey?

  Right. That is the other thing, like not, not everyone is in a position where they can make those adjustments.

• 22:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. And we haven't really talked at all how incredibly expensive being disabled is.

• 22:38Holly Frey?

  So, so expensive. Like prohibitively expensive.

• 22:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like my mom's wheelchair cost more than the last car that I bought.

• 22:49Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 22:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  We also didn't, I hope that this was obvious from the episode itself. We didn't call it out specifically, but I just also wanted to say that like disability rights and LGBTQ rights have gone hand in hand the whole time.

• 23:05Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so the fact that we're at this point now in US history where there are attacks on DEI and those attacks are targeting trans people and gay men and lesbians, other queer people, also disabled people, like that is not new. That is stuff that has been going on this whole time.

• 23:25Holly Frey?

  Yeah. The other thing that always makes me irate though is that any, I almost hate calling them accommodations because it makes it sound like, oh, we have to go out of our way to do this.

• 23:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 23:39Holly Frey?

  Anything that is put in place to make places accessible and fair and equal.

• 23:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 23:46Holly Frey?

  Benefits everybody.

• 23:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  It helps everybody.

• 23:50Holly Frey?

  Yeah. It's, it's not like whenever people make the argument in any of these things that like, oh, why should everybody else have to?

• 23:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Holly Frey?

  Go, and I'm like, because you're also benefiting fool. Like I don't, this is so easy.

• 24:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 24:07Holly Frey?

  Even like in ways that are just benign and like thoughtless, right? If you are in a city that has really good curb cuts everywhere. Things like deliveries get easier. Things like just walking around for people that do not have any, any issue walking gets easier. Like so many things improve.

• 24:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Parents with their strollers, it's much easier.

• 24:29Holly Frey?

  Life is easier. It's, it's so silly that anybody would think that that was somehow.

• 24:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 24:36Holly Frey?

  Infringing on their.

• 24:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 24:39Holly Frey?

  Day to day life. It's like, it's only making your life easier too.

• 24:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Well, and there's are still like, there's so much stuff with the ADA that still isn't fully implemented with a lot of that full implementation still boiling down to, well, it's too expensive to put ramps everywhere. And it's like, y'all thought it was a reasonable expense to build stairs for non-disabled people when you first built the building. So.

• 25:06Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 25:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  There was money for that. Well.

• 25:08Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  How come there's not money for this? I have the same argument sometimes about things involving parking and bike lanes. There's money for a parking lot. There should be money for a bike lane.

• 25:19Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 25:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh, but that's just me.

• 25:22Holly Frey?

  And if I see you parking in a handicap stripe zone.

• 25:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  Fury.

• 25:28Holly Frey?

  I'm, I'm probably going to say something really unkind to you because you will have deserved it.

• 25:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. I, I don't, I, this was when I was still living in Atlanta. I was out with a friend and we went, we were, we were going to some store somewhere. And there were two striped off spaces that were the wheelchair lift spaces. And both of them had a car parked in them. And they were just at like a cell phone store or something like they like.

• 25:54Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  It was one of those parking lots that kind of served a bunch of buildings. And I remember leaving ugly notes on both of their windshield. Because I was like, this is unacceptable. If a person is in a van and they need to get out of it, they cannot, because you have chosen to illegally park your car here.

• 26:13Holly Frey?

  Yep.

• 26:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  Just to be closer to the store, because there was plenty of other spots.

• 26:18Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 26:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Anyway.

• 26:21Holly Frey?

  Strong feelings.

• 26:23Tracy V. Wilson?

  Interconnected things for me to be mad about.

• 26:25Holly Frey?

  I did really, really love and got quite choked up about it. I got choked up about many things in this episode, but I had not realized and really, really loved the whole aspect of how much the Black Panthers got involved.

• 26:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:39Holly Frey?

  And that they were feeding everybody. I just, oh, the heart warm.

• 26:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Holly Frey?

  So good.

• 26:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  I, we've talked about the Black Panthers on the show before, and I don't actually remember, like, where we talked more about the Black Panthers and starting the breakfast program and all of this other stuff, because so many people, particularly so many white people of a certain age, have been told that the Black Panthers were dangerous and associate them only with being armed black men.

• 27:07Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 27:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  And number one, there's reasons for the armed people needing to protect their own neighborhoods. Like, there was a reason for that. It was not something they made up. And then number two, like, so much of what they were doing was like, we're gonna start a health clinic and we're gonna screen everybody in this neighborhood for sickle cell. That's gonna help make people's lives better. And then when it came to the 504 sit-ins, just part of the thing being like, you are fighting for liberation and we are gonna help you with that.

• 27:36Holly Frey?

  Yeah, I love it.

• 27:40Speaker 09

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• 30:19Speaker 10

  Live Right, publishers of John U. Bacon's New York Times bestseller, The Gales of November, a chronicle of the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald's 1975 shipwreck. "Never has it been told better than by Mr. Bacon in this colorful book," writes John J. Miller of The Wall Street Journal, while author Hampton Sykes proclaims that it's destined to be a classic. The Gales of November, now in paperback.

• 30:53Holly Frey?

  We talked about grave robbing this week.

• 30:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  We did.

• 30:56Holly Frey?

  Which isn't necessarily a January themed thing, but just got interested in it and that's how it goes. This is very interesting to me for a number of reasons. So when I was doing Criminilia, we did an entire season about grave robbers, although that was mostly like people that stole bodies and

• 31:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 31:13Holly Frey?

  sold them to science in many cases. What was very interesting to me was that while people were certainly upset in those instances and the many stories we told, the reaction in Salt Lake, based in, in significant part to the concerns that the deceased's afterlife had been adulterated, was much greater than in some, a lot of the other cases where people actually stole bodies.

• 31:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 31:40Holly Frey?

  I have researched and I just found that fascinating.

• 31:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Yeah. I had a number of mental questions happening as that. I was like, is that there are some religious and spiritual traditions that like, the idea is the, the state of your body at your death is what it is in the afterlife. And so it's really important that like people's bodies be intact.

• 32:08Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 32:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  So I had this sort of mental question of like, is the issue that if they arrive in heaven with no clothes, that they are naked forever?

• 32:19Holly Frey?

  Yes.

• 32:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  And that like, is it impossible to put on clothes in heaven if you didn't have them already? And I just thought about that for a while. People have different beliefs and that they can be different from one another. It's, and that was just like a curiosity. But then I also was really fixated on like, How there were boxes and boxes of clothes because my first thought was, oh, obviously he was gonna like clean up these clothes and sell them in his shop. But when he apparently had boxes and boxes of them, far more than he was selling in the shop, I was like, okay, what, what was your deal here, sir? What?

• 33:00Holly Frey?

  I have theories.

• 33:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Is one of them just like a, a, an unusual morbid fixation on dead people's clothes? Okay.

• 33:09Holly Frey?

  No. Mine is from personal experience, the, um, those are unfinished objects in his sewing room is what they are.

• 33:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, okay.

• 33:18Holly Frey?

  That I had, I had another thought as well. One, I think probably he was getting clothes at a faster rate than he was turning them over. Cause like, he seemed to recognize, he would go back and dig them up pretty quickly after their initial burial.

• 33:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 33:33Holly Frey?

  But he also seemed to recognize that like, you have to let some time elapse before you refurbish this and put it up for sale or use it in some way in your tailoring business.

• 33:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 33:44Holly Frey?

  To lessen the likelihood that someone will recognize it.

• 33:47Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 33:48Holly Frey?

  So I really think it was a, um, he was not good at managing material in, material out. I think that was part of it.

• 33:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay. Yeah. I was sort of mentally divided between poorly thought out criminal enterprise and psychological fixation, or maybe some combination of both.

• 34:09Holly Frey?

  I think something has to happen in your head where you normalize it. And then he probably, it didn't seem weird at all. Of course I have 18, I don't know how many there were. The number is never specified, but of course I have 18 boxes of dead people clothes that I took off of them after they were buried in my living room. Of course that's what I do. That's just what we're doing. Like, there's a weird thing, but I, I, I mean, I don't, I don't know. We don't have any of his own words, other than what is relayed secondhand through accounts like Dewey's and Heath's.

• 34:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Sure.

• 34:45Holly Frey?

  About what he said. So it's a little, we don't know. It's all guesswork.

• 34:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 34:51Holly Frey?

  The questions that you had about concerns about nudity in the afterlife.

• 34:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:57Holly Frey?

  Some of those were also in that Brigham Young sermon that I didn't want to quote the whole thing. But he mentioned specifically, he brings up an interesting example, which I guess is from a real situation, but we don't know, of having seen a young boy talking to some women who were really distraught over this whole thing. And the kid's take was like, hey, you know, garments get destroyed in a variety of ways, like people that burn in a fire if they're devout and they're, you know, like the angels will put their clothes back together for them. It's gonna be okay.

• 35:38Holly Frey?

  And like Brigham Young even mentions like that, you know, your clothes degrade in the, in the grave. And like, it's fine when you get to heaven, you know, the higher powers will have taken care of that. They have tailoring skills. They will, they will bring those disparate threads and, and fibers back together and you will be A-OK. I did find that, that whole sermon very reassuring, like in tone. It was just like, oh, that's very, very, he took a really, like, he was like, I don't want to talk about the horrible stuff because it's horrible.

• 36:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 36:10Holly Frey?

  And it's hard for any of us to understand that. How can I make you guys less scared?

• 36:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 36:15Holly Frey?

  And I'm like, oh, this is actually pretty interesting.

• 36:19Holly Frey?

  I love the ghost part. The ghosts are not asking you for clothes. The ghosts don't need pants. They're fine.

• 36:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:27Holly Frey?

  I just thought that was very, very entertaining.

• 36:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  The child logic involves there, involved there reminds me a little bit of when I was a kid, growing up in the late seventies, early eighties, kind of in the era of hijackings in

• 36:43Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 36:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  the world of air travel. A thing that I was told in Sunday School and other people I know who were in other denominations in other states were also told in Sunday School was that if you were on the airplane and the airplane got hijacked, the, the hijackers would demand that you spit on the Bible. And if you didn't spit on the Bible, they would kill you. A great thing to tell impressionable young children. And my thought at the age of, you know, five or six was like, I mean,

• 37:19Tracy V. Wilson?

  If the choice is spit or die, I like, I bet that God would forgive me.

• 37:25Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 37:27Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think God would forgive me for showing up naked at the gates of heaven.

• 37:31Holly Frey?

  It's gonna be fine. You're getting a robe. It's all good.

• 37:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. I don't know. None of this is in line with any of my current thought about what happens when we die. But like, for kids, that, you know, when you're a child, things make sense in a certain way.

• 37:48Holly Frey?

  Yeah. We mentioned it a little bit in the show, but it, it sent me in this weird spiral where there are not a lot of newspaper mentions of this whole thing that are contemporary to it.

• 38:05Tracy V. Wilson?

  Okay.

• 38:06Holly Frey?

  And at first I thought I was losing my damn mind. I'm like, is my, are all of my databases broken? Are all the archive sites that I use somehow broken? And some of it was that I was using his name, Jean.

• 38:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:22Holly Frey?

  And a lot of them had Anglicized in mentions.

• 38:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 38:24Holly Frey?

  But also then I was reading one particular paper and it specifically said, there's not a lot of newspaper coverage from when this was going down. And that was on purpose because everybody was freaking out already.

• 38:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 38:37Holly Frey?

  And I was like, ah, I understand. Like, the first thing that I found is that Brigham Young sermon.

• 38:43Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Holly Frey?

  Like, when I say the first thing, I had looked at other things, but that was the earliest mention in the papers that I found. Because there were people just already concerned. It had already spread so quickly. And I think personally, this is my speculation, that Salt Lake, because it was new, because we know it was founded as a religious community and as a haven for people that felt they were being persecuted. I think they were worried if they ran something like that in the paper, it would get picked up nationally.

• 39:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 39:12Holly Frey?

  Or internationally even. And that word would spread that their church had this very ugly problem with one of their converts who they had raised up as like evidence of how wonderful their religion was and how it could offer people things that they couldn't find elsewhere. I, I think it might've been a little bit of image management. That is strictly my

• 39:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 39:35Holly Frey?

  speculation.

• 39:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right. That makes sense.

• 39:38Holly Frey?

  But they really don't talk about it till a lot later.

• 39:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  And it also makes sense, I mean, and this. Continues to be relevant today, like the decisions that are made in news reporting of, is this story going to help people or harm people?

• 39:54Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 39:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  And if it's going to harm them, is it newsworthy enough that it still needs to be published?

• 40:00Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 40:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  And so it's possible that some of that may have been going on too, even though the state of journalism and journalistic ethics totally different in the 19th century versus today.

• 40:11Holly Frey?

  Yeah, well, so was the state of the law, right? This is a total extrajudicial solution. I'm using air quotes in my head like, well, I guess we gotta exile him because they were also worried. It, it never came up specifically in any of the research, but I had another speculative theory that there were concerns that if they did execute him and bury him,

• 40:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh huh.

• 40:34Holly Frey?

  That his grave would be constantly tampered with.

• 40:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure.

• 40:38Holly Frey?

  In a retribution move. And I also just think nobody wanted to kill somebody as a solution.

• 40:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 40:46Holly Frey?

  It was a very fascinating, very fascinating thing. I was wildly entertained, which sounds grisly, but just

• 40:54Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 40:54Holly Frey?

  Looking at the psychology of a community dealing with this was very interesting to me.

• 40:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. I, I, when you sent me the outline and I read it through, I was also fascinated and like it wasn't, it wasn't really a morbid fascination, but more of like a wow, this story is, has so many turns that I did not expect.

• 41:16Holly Frey?

  Yes. I, I did chuckle when I first read. Nobody thought about the fact that he would take apart the.

• 41:25Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 41:26Holly Frey?

  No, nobody, I guess it's one of those things where like, if you do not have a devious mind, it never occurs to you that that could happen.

• 41:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Somebody might build a boat.

• 41:36Holly Frey?

  Somebody will just take this shack apart, make a boat out of it.

• 41:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 41:40Holly Frey?

  Make a little raft for themselves.

• 41:43Holly Frey?

  And who knows, he could have just drowned in his escape and be, or he could have, you know, lived a weird life after that. I don't know.

• 41:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Who knows?

• 41:52Holly Frey?

  We don't know. But I'll be thinking about this one for a long time.

• 41:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 41:56Holly Frey?

  Weird way to start the new year. I know, but here we are.

• 42:03Holly Frey?

  If you are about to head into your weekend, I hope that it is as relaxing as possible, that you deal with no big questions of morality or any kind of problem that might cause you to have to think about what its implications are to your faith or your afterlife. I hope everybody's cool to each other and that you get to eat delicious things and relax and that the new year is treating you as well as it possibly can, given the weird times that we live in. If you are not off this weekend, I still hope you eat a lot of delicious things and that you are surrounded by love and kindness. We will be right back here tomorrow with a classic episode and then on Monday, we will have something brand new.

• 42:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 43:06Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 43:37Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 44:12Speaker 10

  Live Right, publishers of John U. Bacon's New York Times bestseller, The Gales of November, a chronicle of the S. S. Edmund Fitzgerald's 1975 shipwreck. Never has it been told better than by Mr. Bacon in this colorful book, writes John J. Miller of The Wall Street Journal, while author Hampton Sides proclaims that it's destined to be a classic. The Gales of November, now in paperback.

• 44:40Tracy V. Wilson?

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