Pod Insights The Tucker Carlson Show Hungary Prime Minister Viktor Orban on USAID, Trump, Immigration, NATO, and the Russia/Ukraine War About this episode Hungary’s Viktor Orban is by far the longest serving head of state in Europe, and by this point has been vindicated on pretty much everything. So when he says that going forward it’s Ukraine, not Russia, that may be the biggest threat to the west, it’s worth paying attention.
(00:00) Viktor Orban’s Predictions Were Right
(02:40) USAID’s Actions in Hungary
(04:29) Why Was USAID Spreading Transgenderism in Foreign Countries?
(09:18) George Soros’ Mission to Destroy the West
(11:16) Has This Mass Migration Policy Worked?
(15:52) Orban’s Assessment of the German Economy and Its Impact on the US
(23:26) Why Is the Destruction of Nord Stream Completely Ignored?
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 I don't know what I'm doing.
0:01 Speaker 01 Need a break.
0:02 Speaker 00 Forget it, I quit.
0:03 Speaker 01 Escape to Pluto TV.
0:05 Speaker 02 This is objectively fantastic.
0:07 Speaker 01 Relax into the movies and shows you already know and love, all for free. Shwing! Even our news is uplifting.
0:13 Speaker 03 You stay classy, San Diego.
0:14 Speaker 01 Watch Tommy Boy, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more. We're not worthy! The best things on TV really are free.
0:24 Speaker 02 You just have to know where to look.
0:26 Speaker 01 Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.
0:30 Tucker Carlson? I will introduce our next guest, who is the longest-serving leader in Europe by far. And he is someone that I interviewed several years ago for the first time. He's, of course, the Prime Minister of Hungary, Viktor Orban.
0:45 Speaker 05 Vívek Felnul?
0:45 Tucker Carlson? Thank you, Mr. Prime Minister. And I was just thinking back when I worked at a giantly publicly traded news company and interviewed you for the first time. You're a democratically elected leader of a European nation, and it was considered controversial to interview you because your ideas were considered eccentric, and they included emphasis on the middle class and families. They included, above all, secure borders, serving your citizens before you serve foreigners. And that was all considered super-radical and dangerous. And I wonder if you feel vindicated years later by watching what happened to the rest of Europe when they didn't follow those simple ideas?
1:29 Speaker 05 So now, we lost all the real attraction, what we have done previously. And Donald Trump take away all the attraction of the international politics, you know? So we have done something for 15 years in Hungary, in a headwind, liberal headwind.
1:52 Speaker 05 Stopping migration, defending traditional values, respecting religious communities, no Green Deal, low taxation, so everything which is unorthodox in the mind of the liberals. So we were a kind of hero, we were a kind of island of difference in the liberal ocean. But now unfortunately, Donald Trump taking over everything. So yeah, just sitting and try to follow him now. This is a totally new reality and that's, may I say, very much helpful to Hungary because, you know, I tried to make some jokes on how the last 15 years was, but it was serious.
2:35 Speaker 05 So when you have one boost from the United States on your chest and one from Brussels, European Union trying to kill you and to deliver evidences that that way of government and governance cannot work, it's difficult to survive. So now we remember back in a happy way, but that was very serious. So now at least one boost is out. The Americans not anymore on our chest, not kneeling on our chest, so it's an appeasement. So we think that life is happy. And it will be even happier when we sweep away the Brazilian bureaucrats and the other boost is down. That's the plan.
3:10 Tucker Carlson? I remember one of your advisors telling me years ago, whispering to me at dinner that the US government, the State Department and agencies like USAID were working against you, funding your opposition indirectly and really trying to subvert democracy in your country and thinking, boys, can that be true? It turns out now it is true. And I wonder when the rest of us are going to get details on what exactly the State Department did to end democracy in Hungary.
3:39 Speaker 05 So first of all, I think those who love conspiracy theories are in trouble. They have to find new ones because the old one proved to be true.
3:53 Speaker 05 That's the first problem.
3:54 Tucker Carlson? That is, it's a massive problem in the United States, yeah.
3:59 Speaker 05 The second is that, you know, it's a taxpayer money.
4:04 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
4:04 Speaker 05 So if we take it, this whole thing, not as a political one, but rather as a moral issue. The fact is that the liberal elite of the West use the taxpayers' money of United States citizens to spread their ideology all around the world. And financed in Hungary more than 60 NGOs, paid politicians, media outlets, you know, so it was a it was a plot against our sovereignty and independence. Sorry, made by you.
4:35 Tucker Carlson? I know.
4:36 Speaker 05 Sorry, but this is the case, and the same has happened from the Brazilian budget, which is even more scandalous, may I say, because we pay the money in the Brazilian budget and they finance our enemies at home, you know, so what's going on? So this is the liberal deep state, the global liberal deep state. And now we see how it has operated.
4:59 Tucker Carlson? It raises a deep question of motive. Why would anyone want to spread, you know, deadly ideas like open borders or transgenderism? Hey, how about no grandchildren for you? How about, you know, nobody reproduces anymore? What would be the motive for spreading poison like that?
5:19 Speaker 05 It should be not naive, I think so. One motivation is always money. So that was a way how the American Democrats thought they can open the gates for their business activity. If they change the governments which insisted on having sovereignty and standing and fight for themselves, it's more difficult to find business possibilities for those speculators. Szoros, Szoros is a Hungarian guy, George Soros kind of speculators can find easier way to generate money and to make profit on your economy. So that's the number one motivation. But the second one, don't forget that leftists are always ideologically driven.
6:03 Speaker 05 And they believe certain things which for us sounds crazy, even embarrassing, you know, frightening, but they believe it. They, in Europe, probably it's difficult to understand, but I'm sure that the leaders of the left in Western Europe, deeply convinced that if they let the migrants in, which are basically Muslims, poor Muslim persons, and let them to be combined with the traditional Christian society, and they manage a kind of integration, the outcome of this whole process will be a better and happier society.
6:45 Speaker 05 And that's the reason why George Soros published his plan. It was signed by himself, saying that the European Union should let 1 million migrants every year to move to Europe. And then, you know, I always said that it belongs to the decision of the national government. So if the Germans or the French would like to make that historical research project, how to improve their society, let's do it. But let us those who do not believe that the outcome will be a good thing, not to do that. So Hungary never tried to educate anybody how a society could be better or worse. We always said, "Guys, let us to make our own decision."
7:29 Speaker 05 And to let migrants in or keep them out, it's exclusively belonging to our nations as a decision. So don't force us from Brussels or from Washington that migration is good, and those who are not let the migrants in definitely must be bad guys. So this is unacceptable. But that was the thing. But Donald Trump changed the mindset of the West. I think this is the key issue. Probabilítskáž, že donatřán, prezident, změní geopolitiku také. Doufám, že ano. Ale už udělal velkou změnu v myšlení politického myšlení západu.
8:11 Speaker 05 Předtím řekli, že migrace je dobrá, že resistovat k migraci je špatná. Teď je to jen opačné. Že defendujete své zájemy je dobré, illegalní migrace zvláště je špatná. Pak na zelené společenství řekli, že zelené je dobré, ekonomická konkurencí neváží. Teď je jasné, že ekonomická konkurencí je první a zelené věci jen druhé. A pak na náboženské komunitě a hodnotách, v našem případě křesťanské, řekl, že to patří meziřezvět. Nás se mnohokrát udělali zklamat, vytvářeli náhody na nás a tak. Ale teď prezident řekl, že je to respektovatelné. Komunita věřících musí získat respekt, což je dobré pro naši společnost.
8:53 Speaker 05 A pak rodina západu. Myšlení bylo, že rodina také patří do minulosti a jiná konfigurace společného života je preferovatelná. Teď je to zpět, tradicí hodnoty jsou lepší než všechny tyto věci. A gender, což je špatná genderová propaganda. Teď je publikané, že je špatná. Že defendovat tradicí hodnoty je dobré. A válka. V Evropě v posledních třech letech vždycky řekl, že válka je dobrá, půst je špatná. O Ukrajině a Rusku. Takže ti, kteří argumentovali pro půst a komunikace a negociaci, řekli, že jste špatní chlapi. Dobří chlapi jsou, kteří argumentovali pro válku. Takže teď je to úplně změněno.
9:38 Speaker 05 Takže donatřán, prezident, už změnil myšlení celého západního světa. To je, kde jsme v tomto momentu a je to velmi dobré pro Německo.
9:45 Tucker Carlson? No, to je určitě výraz pro vás. Pokud bych mohl jen přejít na něco, co jste řekli. Řekli, že Soros a jeho alinovaní a NGO a pohyb, který reprezentuje, jsou těmito věcmi přesunutí, protože soudců jim věří, že jsou pravdivé. But they haven't pushed them on any nation outside the West. No one is pushing China to let in a million or 10 million relative to its size migrants a year, or India, or for that matter Korea, or Japan, or the Philippines, or any other country. It's only Western countries. Why in their mind is it only Western countries that need unrestricted migration?
10:20 Speaker 05 That would request a deeper understanding of the intellectual history of the European political thinking. But there was always a strong leftist liberal community which was not proud being a Westerner. Always have perceived its own civilization as something bad. And their intention was not to make it stronger and to maintain and make it stronger, but to try to destroy, to improve by destroying. That's very communist idea, deleting the past. That was always the communist idea. So they don't like the best, they don't like their nation.
11:02 Speaker 05 Sometimes they are ashamed to belong to a nation because they think that nation is a bad thing. So if you think that nation is something good and you are proud of it and you think that you have to work for your nation to be competitive and better than the others, it's an awful Nazis, you know, extreme right something. That's their approach. That's the tradition of the European Left. And in the latest years, it was brutally witnessed in the everyday political discussion. So I'm a fascist, you know, I'm sitting here like, you know, I'm a bad guy, I'm a fascist, I am middle-aged, feudalistic, Christian radical, you know, so that's who is arguing for peace, which is the worst thing, yeah? Oh, that's absurd, may I say.
11:46 Tucker Carlson? So this has been going on since the end of the last big war, so 80 years, and particularly migration. And so I think we can render some judgment. How has that worked for the big nations of Europe? For Britain, Germany, France? Can we look back and say that experiment was a success?
12:05 Speaker 05 You mean?
12:06 Tucker Carlson? Migration.
12:06 Speaker 05 Migration?
12:07 Tucker Carlson? Unrestricted migration.
12:11 Speaker 05 So, we are living in, okay, under a liberal dictatorship intellectually, but politically still, we are living in democracies. So, public opinion counts. And I think now we have a problem of democracy because of the migration. It's not just a problem of migration, a problem of democracy. Because if you have an elite, which is not ready to accept the obvious public will of your voters, instead of accepting that forcing against the population their own crazy ideas, it raises the problem of democracy. Right. So, that's where we are.
12:50 Speaker 05 Because now there's a quite strong shift in the mindset of the Western societies. Previously, at the beginning of the mass migration period, I'm speaking about 2015, 2016, there were half and half of the societies, even probably more than half was in favor of doing something good in favor of those who were considered as refugees. Then slowly but sure it turned to be that they are not refugees, basically. They're changing their place, there are some of them refugees, but basically the majority of them would like to get a better life, simply.
13:33 Speaker 05 And they are organized by smugglers, it's an international black business, you know, so it's an awful business. And now the terrorism, somehow related to these whole changes, just come up to the surface. It's never happened earlier. Terrorism was not part of the Western life, anyway. If I remember back, the last one was in the 70s, some crazy communist Marxist group of Germany, but after that, you know, terrorism is not part of the Western life. Violence of public life is, does not belong to us. But now terrorism is up, you know, public order is dispersing. So now the society is against the mass migration policy.
14:16 Speaker 05 So we'll comment "kultur", as it was called by Angela Merkel, now it's totally negative. The problem is that the elite was so much committed to that ideology, that now it's difficult to change their position. And that leads us to the problem of democracy. As we will see in Germany just soon. Election is coming two weeks' time. And you probably have realized that there were some surprising discussions in the German parliament, whether to change the migration regulation or not. And the public opinion said, 70% said, "Yes, you should change it." And they voted against it. So it's a problem of democracy. It's not just a problem of migration, it's not a problem of leadership.
14:58 Speaker 05 The whole structure and the system is under pressure at this moment.
15:02 Tucker Carlson? The word "democracy" has been changed, its meaning has been changed in the United States to mean whatever the people in charge want is democracy. But you're referring to it by its traditional meaning, which means what the majority wants, correct?
15:15 Speaker 05 Yes, but at the same time, don't forget that democracy is a word we use too much, probably too often without understanding exactly what does it mean. There are many theories, as you know. But the most relevant one is the Greek origin of the understanding of democracy. They said democracy means two things at the same time. Participation of the people, involvement. But the involvement of the people must be resulted in good governance. If the involvement of the people, the public opinion, does not result in good governance, it's anarchy, it's not democracy. So democracy means participation of the people
16:00 Speaker 05 by their voting in the major decisions, and the outcome must be a good governance. It's one of them, it's lacking, it's not democracy. And now in Europe, we are heading to a position when the people have a chance to vote. But there is no chance to get good governance. So we are moving brother towards a kind of anarchical public life in West Europe.
16:23 Tucker Carlson? So Germany specifically from the outside, you're a European leader. But from an American perspective, Germany is the dominant economic player in the continent.
16:31 Speaker 05 And The giant.
16:33 Tucker Carlson? It feels that way from our perspective. And so what is the German economy? What does it look like right now? How would you assess it?
16:41 Speaker 05 Okay, the German economy is part of the European bomb because we have the single market. And the single market as such is in trouble. I'm in politics, international politics for more than 30 years. And I do remember then 30 years ago, the biggest economy of the world was the European Union.
17:03 Speaker 05 And now it's only number three.
17:06 Speaker 05 And if you look at the top five economies of the world, there is no European among them. So European Union economically, it's not a success story. And the success of European Union will always strongly link to the success of German economy. And now they are suffering and we are suffering. And the reason is very simple. There was a well-functioning, quite well-functioning structure and model of the German economy and the European economy. That was cheap Russian energy and the well-advanced European technology come together and we are competitive. But now after the war, we isolated ourselves from the cheap energy. And there is no new strategy, how we could be competitive. So we have a lost strategy, but we don't have a new one.
17:51 Speaker 05 There is no replacement for the old one. So now the problem is that we don't have compass where we should move. So we are just managing the daily work, but there is no real strategy. What is the future of the European economy? No answer of that. That's the reason why China, United States, because President Trump is back, obviously is in a far better position than we are. Lack of leadership, lack of ideas, lack of visions. That's why we suffer.
18:17 Tucker Carlson? Well, I mean, the Biden administration imposed the Green New Deal on Germany with high explosives by blowing up Nord Stream. So on many levels, I don't understand. So you have the largest player in NATO committing an act of terror, industrial terrorism, against the second-largest player in NATO. How does NATO still exist, honestly? And why does nobody say anything about it?
18:39 Speaker 05 Hungary is a small country, you know, so.
18:43 Speaker 05 10 million, you know, so elephants is a different game. It's another league, you know, so that's how they live. If it would have happened with Hungary, there would be some noise, no question of that. But, you know, it's Germany.
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20:57 Speaker 00 I don't know what I'm doing.
20:58 Speaker 01 Need a break.
20:59 Speaker 00 Forget it, I quit.
21:00 Speaker 01 Escape to Pluto TV.
21:02 Speaker 02 This is objectively fantastic.
21:04 Speaker 01 Relax into the movies and shows you already know and love, all for free. Shwing! Even our news is uplifting. You stay classy, San Diego. Watch Tommy Boy, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more. We're not worthy! The best things on TV really are free. You just have to know where to look. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.
21:28 Tucker Carlson? If you could just speculate, I know it's not your country, and when all the rest of Europe is gone, I have no doubt Hungary will remain, as it has for, you know, a thousand years. But why do you think, even now, there's no... Nord Stream, to me, as a total outsider, seems like a pivot point in the history of Europe. It really seems like a big deal.
21:48 Speaker 05 I see your point.
21:49 Tucker Carlson? Right. And, obviously, it was also the largest emission of greenhouse gases caused by humans in the history of civilization, and no one mentioned it. So, okay. But why is there no conversation about it? I don't know, I really don't understand that. And every time I bring it up in Europe, people look embarrassed and try to walk away from me.
22:08 Speaker 05 So I think, I think the basic reason is that in the last several decades, there was a strong alliance between the American liberal elite and the European liberal elite. And they agree always, what is the issue and what is not the issue? If they decided that something is not an issue, it was not an issue. And the Germans were part of that kind of transatlantic liberal alliance. And they were managed to stop all the voices which tried to raise the question, which is a serious one, anyway. But, but, but, anyway, it's not the only one. I do remember some other scandals as well, beginning of the previous decade. It turned out that the United States Democratic government, anyway,
22:52 Speaker 05 tamed the Chancellor of Germany. And we were discussing it at the European Council meeting.
23:03 Speaker 05 Charles Kersey, que era presidente de Francia, dijo: "Chicos, ¿qué escandaloso es eso? Tenemos que hacerlo". Los alemanes dijeron: "No, no, no, no, no, no, no". "La reacción transatlántica es lo más importante. Tenemos que manejarlo de una manera". "Eso es una alianza entre las élites transatlánticas de América y la Unión Europea".
23:24 Tucker Carlson? "No ha ayudado, creo que la Unión Europea".
23:28 Speaker 05 "Probablemente esa fue tu sentencia, no la mía". "Si un país no está listo para levantarse y luchar por sí mismo, no merece ninguna ayuda de fuera".
23:39 Tucker Carlson? "No podría estar de acuerdo más". "Pero también creo, y dime, me encantaría saber tu perspectiva sobre esto", "es mi instinto que las fortunas de Europa, las fortunas económicas de Europa, las condiciones de seguridad de Europa realmente importan para los Estados Unidos", "porque es inadecuable, es fundamentalmente parte de un bloque, es Occidente". "Así que si Europa declive, no veo cómo eso ayuda a los Estados Unidos".
24:01 Speaker 05 "Creo que el enfoque de la nueva administración de Estados Unidos tiene un enfoque muy especial hacia las otras economías. Y esto se basa en hechos y cifras, y se concentra en los equilibrios comerciales". "Y a lo largo de lo que pude entender el modo de pensar de esta nueva administración en tu país", "ven un triángulo: Europa, China, Estados Unidos", "y ven las cifras". "Y Europa gana +200 millones de dólares comerciales con Estados Unidos".
24:41 Speaker 05 "Perderemos el mismo sumo a China, así que básicamente Europa es cero". "Y la Unión Europea gana 200 millones de euros más el comercio con ustedes, Estados Unidos", "y usted pierde a China 300". "Así que significa que Europa es básicamente cero, China más 500 millones, Estados Unidos menos 500 millones". "Y como dijo su presidente, no es bueno, es malo".
25:12 Speaker 05 ...should be done, and he will do something. He is not, probably the new administration is not thinking about geopolitical concepts of economy, but you know, figures, facts. They would like to do something to improve the trade balance. And that's a challenge for Europe. So it's a serious matter. It's not about friendship, it's not about, you know, love each other, brother in arms, that's very nice, but it's money, it's figures. So we have to find a solution and to make a deal with the United States. If Europeans are just sitting and waiting, that's not a good strategy. We should come up with a strategy and to provide something, a deal, proposals to the United States to how to reshape that kind of imbalanced trade relationship.
25:55 Speaker 05 Otherwise, we will got tariffs and we will suffer. We are not strong enough to defend our interest after waiting and losing months and weeks and months, so. But the problem is that Europe now leads by bureaucrats.
26:10 Speaker 05 You know, we have the European Commission, do you know what is it? The Commission is a bureaucratic body, which originally was planned to be the guardian of the treaty.
26:21 Speaker 05 So just to help to maintain the fair legal regulation inside the single market area. But now the bureaucrats are more than thirty thousand, you know, they're growing, growing, growing, and they took away the leadership from the real prime ministers of Europe. So now the Commission tried to lead, tries to lead the European Union, but they are bureaucrats. And we have the leadership program, because bureaucrats cannot lead anything politically. When everything is going well, bureaucrats are not harmful, because things are going well. But when there are difficulties and decision must be made, like now, we should make an offer to the United States, the bureaucrats will never do that, because they are bureaucrats. Bureaucrats are interested in status quo, not to provide political leadership for your community.
27:06 Speaker 05 So that's another problem inside the European Union, but I would not like to speak too much about other countries, because my job is to preserve the sovereignty and good chances for the future of my own nation. So what I am doing now, I try to find a way... How we can have a good relation with the United States to make some deals on economy as much big as we can, we are working on that. And try to create an economic policy which make Hungary successful even if the European Union exists or European Union does not exist. The problem is to be sharp. We have not more than three, four years, and if we don't do something dramatically different strategy, the European Union will fall apart.
27:48 Speaker 05 So, so, there is a, there is a famous study published in, in Western Europe called Draghi Report. Draghi was the previous head of the European, European Bank and previously Prime Minister of Italy. And he put together a study. And the study is very clear. If you don't do something in three years' time to, to push down the price of the energy and to make Europe competitive, especially by creating a capital market at the European Union level, the European Union economy is over. So now we pay three, four times higher price for the electricity than you do it in the
28:31 Speaker 05 United States and five, six times higher price for gas than you do in the United States. How our companies can be competitive? It's impossible. And then you, you run a policy and Donald Trump President will do so even more to attract the capitals from all over the world to the United States. So the capital we move out from Europe to the United States and to other places as well. So we have to do something to keep the capital inside the European Union, but we don't have a strategy how to do it. So, so now the European Union is really at, at a watershed.
29:02 Tucker Carlson? But you have ended global warming. Do you feel good about that?
29:07 Speaker 05 Hungary has a nice climate, so. But taking seriously the global responsibility, of course, but the problem is not the global climate issue. The problem is that if you would like to find a solution for a global issue like, like, like climate issue, you can't do it against the business community.
29:27 Speaker 05 So if you don't convince the business community that they could be part of this whole process, involvement again, to involve them into that policy. If you don't do that, but ideologically led, political movement, green movement, you do like that, you know, it's hopeless, it will be not successful. Look at the Green Deal, Green Deal is dead. It's a suicide attempt for the European Union. Nobody is sharing of that. We do it and we kill our industry. So if you would like to have a good green policy, you need the business, the business leaders, and the common strategy. That's the only way. Otherwise, we end up as we are today.
30:04 Tucker Carlson? So both the structures that overlay Europe, NATO, and the EU seem like they've played out or they're not working as intended. I think we can say that.
30:10 Speaker 05 And the problem is that the European institutions cannot reform it, cannot provide leadership, because it's a strange creature of the European Union. So the only possibility to have a leadership if the French and the German government is strong, stable, visionary, and take the lead.
30:27 Tucker Carlson? Right.
30:29 Speaker 05 Which is not the case at this moment.
30:30 Tucker Carlson? So why not a different structure with, you know, an alliance of countries that have something in common, a common worldview, similar economy, say, east of Switzerland, central and eastern Europe? Why, and then sort of let, you know, France and Britain sort of enjoy the fruits of, you know, of the decisions that they've made?
30:50 Speaker 05 So we have a strategy anyway. Hungary, that's my job anyway. We have a strategy, of course. And central European leaders have their own strategy. So our main criticism to the European Union at this moment, that they launch wars with everybody who could be important partners for your economy. We launch a war on ideology, Donald Trump, President Donald Trump. We launch a war with China on trade issues. We initiated the tariff war with China. And then we launch a war with Russia on energy. So why it is a good policy? In Central Europe, we did just the opposite. We build up a good relation with the new republican administration.
31:32 Speaker 05 Forty-four percent of all European investment from China arrived to Hungary last year. Forty-four percent of all Europeans. And we maintained the communication and cooperation even with the Russians. So connectivity is the word, not blocking. The European Union tried to build up block instead of running connectivity strategy based on connectivity and do on a common sense based business with everybody who can provide something good for the European Union. But Central Europe does exactly what I'm saying about. Slovaks do it, Hungary do it, Serbia do it.
32:08 Tucker Carlson? There's a famous, the first famous picture view is from 1989 getting arrested by Russian-backed security forces. You were a student protest leader against the effective Russian occupation of your country and Eastern Europe. So with that in mind, I've listened for the past three years to you denounced as a Putin puppet in our press. What's your response to that? Are you?
32:34 Speaker 05 You know, it's so ridiculous that it's always a dilemma to me to react at all or not. But, okay, if I take it seriously, you know, I am not a pro-Putin man, I'm a pro-Hungarian guy, you know? Because my job is to serve my nation. That's first. Second, we have some memories with the Russians. It's not a honeymoon anyway. You know, Hungary, just to the audience, the Hungary is dominated by always three major powers. One, Germany, I mean Berlin, Moscow, and Istanbul. So we are living just in the middle of that. Each of them occupied at least once. Russians free, you know, so it's a...
33:19 Speaker 05 So that's the menu card, what you have, if you are living in that peculiar part of the European Union.
33:27 Tucker Carlson? Sounds like a lot of fun.
33:29 Speaker 05 So, so therefore, I decided when I came back to power 2010, and I made a deal with President Russia, President Putin, that whatever was the history between the two nations, let it to the historians and discuss it. And we should find a reasonable cooperation and do it economically as much as we had. And we did, and it worked. It was good. You know, Russians always kept their words. When we agreed on anything with Putin, that was done, on my side as well. So therefore, my attitude to the Russians is not that negative
34:12 Speaker 05 and crazy as many of the Western leaders at this moment. And my position on this war between Ukraine and Russia always said, "Guys, don't forget that this war is not about Ukraine."
34:26 Speaker 05 Don't make a mistake. The strategical reason of this war is called enlargement of NATO. So the question is whether we would like to enlarge NATO or not. If you would like to enlarge NATO, the Russians will never accept it. Whether you like it or not, you know, they will not let us to move closer to their borders. But this is the main issue: enlargement of NATO. So then, when the war has broken because Russia invaded Ukraine finally to stop the NATO membership and occupied the territories, I said to my colleagues that we should isolate as much as we can and as soon as we can this whole conflict. Otherwise, the conflict will accelerate,
35:10 Speaker 05 eating up more and more money, more and more casualties, more and more deaths, now hundreds of thousands of widows and, you know... You know, when two Slavic nations are in war, it's serious. Because they are both military-based nations. So it's a tragedy what's going on. It's really brutal. It's not just a geopolitical game, you know. It's a human tragedy, anyway. And so I said, "We should isolate them and stop killing." But what now the Western strategy is that keep killing as long as it takes. That's what they are doing. So unfortunately, I remain alone. We voted, and I was the only one who was against the involvement of European Union to the war.
35:55 Speaker 05 Later on, now the Slovaks followed the same track, plus Vatican. So Vatican, Slovakia and Hungary, and now Donald Trump president. So that's a new, that's a new story. Because your president following exactly the same track which was offered by us. I mean, by Hungary in the last three years. So another good news.
36:20 Tucker Carlson? Less than a year in, there was what seems like a pretty meaningful attempt to end it, to settle the conflict, and that was scuttled by the Biden administration, using the former British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. Why do you think?
36:36 Tucker Carlson? The Biden administration wanted the war to continue, and the, and it wasn't just Johnson. It was the UK more broadly. Its whole political establishment was fanatically, is to this day, fanatically.
36:46 Speaker 05 Still, still.
36:47 Tucker Carlson? What is that? They're not historic enemies, by the way, keep in mind. They were allied in the last big war. They've never been invaded by Russia. Like, why is Britain so intent on killing all these Ukrainians? I don't understand.
37:00 Speaker 05 Is it my job to answer to that?
37:01 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
37:03 Speaker 05 I don't think so.
37:04 Tucker Carlson? You're the longest serving leader in Europe. I thought you might have, no, you don't.
37:09 Speaker 05 When I will, in my, in my years in pension, I'm ready to answer to that. Try to survive, brother.
37:17 Tucker Carlson? Totally fair.
37:20 Tucker Carlson? Can you just describe for those who haven't, I mean, you're very much, you know, you're not far from the fighting, by the way, for people who haven't looked at a map. So can you describe the effects on Europe of this war for those of us who don't live on the continent? Like, what, what effects has this had, do you think?
37:35 Speaker 05 So just start with the very narrow Hungarian approach. Because of the sanctions and the war, we are losing every year around 7 billion euro.
37:47 Speaker 05 Hungry as smoke, can't you imagine? Just hungry? Just hungry, just hungry, just hungry. So altogether, we don't know the figures exactly, but Europe spent close to 200 billion euro, which is out of the European economy. So it's a sum. That's first. Second, we isolated ourselves from the Russian economy, including the energy, which will have a long-term impact on us as well, as I said, losing our work well-functioning economic strategy as a basis of the European economy. The third one is the migrants.
38:30 Speaker 05 I mean, they are not migrants, they are really refugees. So the Ukrainians left the country. Nobody knows exactly how many, but tens of millions. So we are speaking about a country which one-fifth or one-fourth of this territory is occupied by Russia. The industrial area is totally destroyed, and the people are just escaping. So it's really a tragedy. And if President Trump is not able to find a solution, that war could become easily an Afghanistan for the European Union. Endless war, endless conflict, no way out of the conflict,
39:12 Speaker 05 eating up energy, human lives, money, everything, destroying the frame of normal life for the European Union. So we are in a serious danger. The difficulty is, that's not my challenge, but it's a challenge to President Trump, how to convince the Russians to stop the war while the Russians basically winning. This is the big question. 幸运的是，我不能再找到答案了。 但我坚信，如果你们试图在俄乌战争中找到解决方案， 你们永远不会找到解决方案。 所以我们应该把这个袋子打开，
39:55 Speaker 05 来融入俄罗斯的重新整合问题， 纳入国际安全秩序， 重新整合俄罗斯纳入欧洲安全系统， 找到经济合作， 基本上是能源， 再加上乌克兰。 如果你把这种更大的袋子打开， 很可能有机会达成协议。 如果只是集中乌克兰和俄罗斯， 这无疑是一个挑战， 从政治和道德上对任何美国总统来说。 但我不能再做这个事情了。
40:30 Tucker Carlson? 从美国的角度看， 拜登 administration 在推动俄罗斯与中国深入的整合， 深入的整合， 无论是经济还是军事， 这从我们的角度来看是糟糕的。 但回来， 试图把俄罗斯带回SWIFT， 甚至如此简单的事情， 你正在与 Putin 日本每天描述的 Hitler 打战。 所以， 如果你真的能做到这一点， 一旦这些话语被说出口，
40:57 Speaker 05 不。
40:58 Tucker Carlson? 对吧？
40:59 Speaker 05 没有回去。 所以我想， 你知道，我们是不同的国家。 我既不是在讨论俄罗斯， 也不是在讨论俄罗斯， 但是俄罗斯是一个军事国家。 所以你的思维方式是关于... 好的， 对于你， 对于我， 当我们谈论 democracy 的时候， 首先想到的问题是什么？ 你集中你的想法， 自由，对吧？
41:22 Tucker Carlson? 当然。
41:22 Speaker 05 好的， 但在俄罗斯不是这样的。 在俄罗斯， 是国家安全。
41:38 Speaker 05 Than democracy and other issues, which are important. But the number one is, because it's a too big country. To keep it together, it is number one historical challenge and mission for the leaders. So it's a different mindset again. So if you have that kind of country and you insult them politically, try to isolate them politically, try to kill them economically, then support his enemy by all the means. And after Syria, they say, "No, we don't think too much seriously. So come back and cooperate with us." It doesn't work. So we made a historical mistake, which is decisive for at least 100 years,
42:19 Speaker 05 and based, cemented the Chinese-Russian cooperation for 100 years. So we have to see that kind of bloc as a bloc. Probably Russia will make a deal with us on many issues, but we'll never give up that kind of final background, what China means. If you would be in the shoes of Vladimir Putin, I think you would do the same thing. Never give up that kind of background, which was the real and only background. Can you imagine if China would not be in that relation with Russia and use the possibility of being attacked from West and try to squeeze from the East Russia? But Chinese did not do so. They said, "We don't accept that kind of Western approach to this war."
43:03 Speaker 05 You know, so it's historic. It's not just a war of the decade. It will have an impact for long, long, long, long decades. We will live with that. Even our kids will live in that age. But Russia will never come back to the West as it was, never again. Sorry to say that. I'm not happy with that, because Russia is too close to Hungary. You know, and the Ukraine. And the problem, what is basically again the problem? You know, the Russians accepted...
43:35 Speaker 05 In a very difficult way, that Central European countries like my home, Hungary, became member of NATO. They always criticize that move, saying that it's unfair, because it was promised, nobody knows exactly whether did it happen or not, but it was promised that the ex-Soviet Union-dominated territories will now join NATO. But we did, good for us anyway. And then the Russians started to live with that. In that concept, Ukraine was the buffer zone between NATO and Russia. And then now, as we started to incorporate more and more Ukraine, first at the military
44:17 Speaker 05 level, developing their army, then even at the diplomatic level to speak about the possible membership of Ukraine to NATO, we converted the buffer zone into a war zone. So it's not anymore a buffer zone. That's the problem. And it's history, it's not about one or two decades issue. So how we imagine the territory between the NATO and Russia? How we call it and how to manage it? How we provide the future for the people and the territory? So these are the real big and difficult challenges ahead of us.
44:53 Tucker Carlson? One big change.
44:54 Speaker 05 When we jumped into the war, that was always my argument to the Westerners, that "Don't consider that war as our own war. It's not a war of the West. It's a war between two Slavic nations, a brutal but a brotherhood war. Russians and Ukrainians. Isolate them, help them, but don't say that this is our war." That's exactly what you have done. Basically, Biden President came to Warsaw and said, "Putin must fail." Guys, it means that you are in the war. So why we have done it? Nobody knows the answer of that, you know? So it was a very short-sighted idea.
45:33 Speaker 05 Probably they thought that they could make weaken Russia. I was always sure the very first moment that a war will make Russia stronger than it was prior to the war. That's our history. First World War, Second World War. When they start the war, they are weaker. As the war is going ahead, they are getting stronger and stronger and stronger. That's the lesson of the Hungarian history.
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47:42 Tucker Carlson? You were the first person, I mean, I live in the United States, so I live in such a North Korean news vacuum that I was shocked when I spoke to you in the summer of 2022 and asked, who do you think will win this war? And you laughed and you said, have you looked at the populations? Russia is 100 million more people, and I thought, why have I never heard this before? Everything you're saying now is what you were saying two and a half years ago. And you were proven right.
48:04 Speaker 05 I'm not happy with that, anyway.
48:05 Tucker Carlson? No, I know, but I guess what I'm saying is, Western policymakers also have access to Wikipedia. So, how did they not know this?
48:18 Speaker 05 I think two reasons. One is that they have an interpretation of the Second World War, that Russia was able to win against Germany just because the Anglo-Saxon supported them. That's first. Second, you know...
48:34 Tucker Carlson? May I ask you to pause, and you don't believe that's true?
48:37 Speaker 05 I think, to certain extent, it was true. So, a lot of support came from the United States, especially to Russia, especially emotion, weapons, and so on. So, I can't say that that was the precondition. It's not the... I don't underestimate the heroic attempts of the Russians to defend their own land, even against the Hungarians, anyway, because we were on the other side. But, it's true that the alliance with the West played a role, that Russia was able to survive the German attacks. So, that's exaggeration on the Western side of that story, probably. And the second, don't forget that in the 90s, in the 90s, I was Prime Minister when President Putin came into power.
49:22 Speaker 05 1990, I was first-time Prime Minister at that time. And I do remember how was the 90s. In the 90s, there was the Washington Consensus, which is a theory of how to reorganize the world economy, privatization, competitiveness, and so on. And the global capitalists started to invest into Russia, and they had a feeling that now they find the key how to integrate the Russian economy and the huge, vast Russian territories and the raw materials, energy supply territories into the world economy. That was the 90s. And they did it. They made huge amount of money. George Soros, who I always
50:08 Speaker 05 a good focus to follow anyway, to understand what's going on, did it. But the Russians were not satisfied with that at all. And then there was a change. President Putin came to parliament and said, guys, this integration to the world economy, not the way which is serving the interest of Russia. And they cut many things. And many Americans and European investors have to realize some losses. And I think the idea that they were so close to get it, to get the major source of the profit,
50:42 Speaker 05 and it was stopped by the same man, there is a personal revenge element in their way of thinking. I'm sure of that. Sorry, that's too much probably to say about it.
50:51 Tucker Carlson? You know, that's a very diplomatic description. From our perspective, it looked like looting by Western businesses that resulted in like the lowest life expectancy in Europe by far. And the story from Putin's ascension in 2000 is climbing Russian life expectancy, which I think is a fair measure of a country's health. And there's deep resentment that he didn't allow foreign business interests to dominate this country. I mean, fair?
51:17 Speaker 05 The Russians had their own concept how they would like to be integrated into the world economy. And that concept was different from the American concept and from the European concept, of course. Hungary is part of that. So when we realize what is the new strategy of the Russians, the Hungarian companies went to Russia and to make their business. As I'm sure that from the Emirates, they are doing their businesses as well, and the Saudis and others. So they have a country, they would not like to be isolated. They would be part of the world economy based on the Russian interest, not on the Washington consensus principles or something like that, you know? So, but it's their country. Whether we like it or not, whether we are or not, it's their country. They make their choice. If it's their decision, we have to adjust ourselves,
52:02 Speaker 05 not to force them to change their mind, you know? It's not our job. At least this is the Hungarian approach. Probably not the American, but definitely the Central European. They are too close, don't forget they're too close.
52:15 Tucker Carlson? I know you don't forget that.
52:18 Tucker Carlson? How would you rate Zelensky as the leader of Ukraine?
52:23 Speaker 05 First of all, even if I have many critical remarks, it does not matter if we take the proper vantage point to see what has happened in Ukraine in the last years. They decided to go into a war, to defend their own territory, their own right to join NATO and to be part of the Western architecture, security and economic architecture. That was their decision, and they fight for it. And they lost hundreds of thousands of lives. And they fight heroically. So I'm very cautious to make any critical remarks
53:06 Speaker 05 on the president or Ukraine, because what they have done is really something heroic and historical, to resist to that power like Russia for that long time, you know. So it's whatever political mistakes they have done, the fact itself, the fight and sacrifice, is something we have to say that's really heroic. Yes. So that's number one. Number two, I think it was a misunderstanding on their behalf, the real intention of the West. And they thought that the West will support them forever. And therefore, their behavior was not exactly as
53:51 Speaker 05 it would be seen as normal. Because if you are in trouble, you need help, you are going to somewhere to ask, it's not the right tone as they communicate with us. Anyway, so... But they thought that they can do so, because the West will remain behind them forever. If you understand well the history of the Western politics, this is a misconception, may I say. That's not what the West did in the last 20 years. Yeah. No, no. So I was sure that sooner or later, they will be let alone and say, guys, war is over, financial support is over, military support is over, let's make a deal.
54:36 Speaker 05 Even if you have huge losses, this is the right moment. We would not like to risk World War III. We would not like to risk a direct conflict with Russia on military fields. So my heart is with the Ukrainians, but they are in a big, big, big trouble because of the position they have now on this whole issue.
55:00 Tucker Carlson? Many billions of dollars of Western weapons have flowed into Ukraine. A lot of them have been sold, it's a fact. And I wonder if you're concerned about the effect on your security of this? I mean, you have lots of weapons floating around anywhere, it's dangerous. And is anyone keeping track of some of these advanced weapons, actually where they are?
55:22 Speaker 05 So, just again, very cautiously. And now everybody thinks that we have a problem called Russia, which is true. But then soon, we will have another problem called Ukraine.
55:36 Tucker Carlson? Yes.
55:39 Tucker Carlson? So, I think that's right. So the new Defense Secretary of the United States, Pete Hegseth, gave a speech two days ago in which he started by saying, "Ukraine is not joining NATO." So that's the core, that that question was the cause of this war. That's the baseline demand of Russia. I think it makes intuitive sense to even people who don't like Russia can understand why they want that. So now that the United States has just said that, is that the basis of a peace? What else do we need to get to peace?
56:10 Speaker 05 You live in the United States and it's probably difficult to imagine the strength of liberal dictatorship of public life. We are living under in Europe. So, you know, the pressure from the liberal public opinion is so strong on the leaders that in the last three years, all the European leaders followed the same track. So, try to imagine that a big European national leader says that we have to support Euro, Ukraine, whatever does it take. We have to do, this is a moral-based position, we can't change it. And they should join NATO and we are arguing in favor of that.
56:55 Speaker 05 And then, just to say next weekend, guys, there are some changes in the world, so our principally based position is over and now, you know, turn like that. So, to make that change with the present leadership, it's difficult to imagine. I would not like to make nasty jokes, but now because of the American decision, it's really time for sober up, but they are in the phase of redrinking. You know, so it takes time to change the direction of the sheep. Just today, they issued a paper, they issued a statement, the big European nations saying that they continue as they have done regardless of what the Americans have said. That's just this morning, so.
57:38 Tucker Carlson? Are we going to have to invade France? Is that what you're saying?
57:41 Speaker 05 Ah.
57:42 Tucker Carlson? Sorry, sorry, just kidding. No one wants France at this point. Ah. Sorry.
57:49 Speaker 05 Discuss in another.
57:51 Tucker Carlson? Sorry, sorry, sorry, yeah, another forum, another forum, I totally get it. Optimistically, though, if you believe, you know, I think the Trump administration really would, the president has said it a number of times, we need to end this. Do you think it's possible that we see like a permanent resolution within the next six months? Is that realistic to hope for that?
58:12 Speaker 05 Yes, yes, definitely, even earlier.
58:14 Tucker Carlson? Really?
58:15 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think so. You know, serious guys. So, strong man make peace, weak man makes war. That's so simple. Now we have strong leaders.
58:29 Tucker Carlson? Last question, and I appreciate this. And I want to say before you leave, I'll just say it. I don't mind sucking up. I think there's a reason you're the longest-serving leader in Europe. I think history, for all the criticism you've taken, will...
58:40 Speaker 05 Don't forget that I have another record I hold. It's more important. Longest-serving leader of opposition in Europe.
58:49 Speaker 05 16 years. Just because I'm accused not to be democratic, you know? Don't forget that, OK, 19 years in government, that's something. But 16 years in opposition and to lead them, that's even more. So I had that record as well. So I know the both side of democracy, the sunny one and the raining one as well. So I never left politics, even I lost the election. So I'm a political animal who is running a democratic political architecture and machinery in my country. Sorry for interrupting.
59:18 Tucker Carlson? Which did you enjoy more, honestly?
59:22 Speaker 05 When I was in opposition, I had more time to deal with football.
59:28 Speaker 05 Which is a real issue, anyway.
59:32 Tucker Carlson? Where do you think the European public is? You said a couple of times that the behavior of the leadership of some Western nations calls into question democracy itself. Is there accurate public polling information on how Europeans, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Brits, how they actually feel about the war in Ukraine? Do you think...
59:54 Speaker 05 We do run that. So I run that kind of opinion polls. So I have a view on all European countries. And I can say that the majority is moving to the peace position. And the pro-peace is bigger now. There's a majority of the pro-peace in the European public opinion in general. There are some, one or two countries which is exceptional. All the others belonging to the same track, more, more, more for peace. But there is another opinion poll which is even more important. I would not like to divert this conversation. But we run every year and we ask the Europeans, "What do you think about the life of your children?" Will they have a better future and better life than you have now?
1:00:39 Speaker 05 Or it will be worse? And you know, all the western countries says worse. All the Central European countries says better. So this is the real difference now between, inside the continent, between the western countries and the Central European countries. So we still believe, occupied countries by Soviet Union, communist dictatorship, regardless of that, we are still believe that we can create a better future for our kids than we live today. But the westerners think just the opposite of that. So that's another very interesting structural differences inside the single market and the European.
1:01:15 Tucker Carlson? Because your life force is intact?
1:01:17 Speaker 05 Because, because, that's fun, but the other one, what we have now, we fight for. We fought for it. You know, democracy, freedom. You know, the western generations who are now in power and ruling the countries, when they were born, there was democracy and freedom in the western part of Europe. I spent 26 of my years of my life in communist dictatorship, you know. I haven't inherited freedom or democracy. We fought for it, you know, we did it, we get it. So we, we, we fought for it. So therefore, we are absolutely convinced that we did it not in vain. It was a science. And we are able to create and build up countries, Central Europe,
1:02:00 Speaker 05 after 45 years of Soviet occupation and communist dictatorship, which our kids will enjoy and deserve. So, democracy and freedom in central part of, in, in, in eastern and central part of Europe is a serious thing. It's part of our life, it belongs to our heart, it's the essence of our life. In western societies, you know, they inherited, it's a given thing. Even the middle class, while living, while being a convenient way of life also. So, it's, when we see, when you look at the European Union and Europe, don't think that it's, it's the same everywhere. So there are differences, not just on national basis, but on historical basis as well.
1:02:45 Speaker 05 And I don't know what is the future of the western Europe, but I'm totally convinced that Central Europe and Eastern Europe, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Serbia, has a definite bright future. I'm sure of that.
1:02:59 Tucker Carlson? I am too. Mr. Prime Minister, thank you.
1:03:01 Speaker 05 Thank you very much.
1:03:05 Speaker 07 That was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.
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