Dan Peres: From Opiod Slave To Sober Salvation

Today I share one man’s journey into the depths of opioid addiction despair -- what happened, what it was like, and how he ultimately found a way out. His name is Dan Peres -- and it’s quite the story. Hardly a born media insider, Dan was an awkward, magic-obsessed adolescent. But his gift for the written word and shrewd eye for culture catapulted him to premature heights in the fast-paced world of glossy magazine publishing. At 24, he was covering catwalks in Paris as the European editor for W magazine. A few short years later he landed the coveted editor gig at Details magazine, the arbiter of all things cool and zeitgeist -- a post he held for 15 years. Along the way Dan nurtured a secret, seeking refuge in opioids to a salve profound imposter syndrome as he navigated the high-voltage netherworld of fashion designers, celebrities and media moguls. Like so many, it’s a relationship that began with a back injury and a prescription. A love affair that escalated to 60 pills a day, betrayal soon followed. A best friend that turned dark. And an addiction that took him places he never thought he would go, produced more instances of incomprehensible demoralization than he cares to remember, and eroded the moral fabric of his life. By a power greater than himself, Dan found a way out. Now 12 years sober, he recollects the vivid details of his experience in As Needed For A Pain -- a harrowing and at times humorous coming-of-age tale that offers a rare glimpse into New York media’s past (a time when print magazines mattered), dissects a life teetering on the edge of destruction, and chronicles what it took to pull back from the brink of an addiction that very nearly killed him. Today Dan shares his powerful tale from depravity to salvation. Even if the opioid epidemic hasn’t affected you directly, chances are someone in your life suffers. May this conversation open your eyes. Help you better understand the cunning, baffling and powerful nature of this disease. And provide hope to those that currently suffer -- because there is a solution. The visually inclined can watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the audio version streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. If you need help, seek out an A. A. meeting in your area here. Or call the Substance Abuse And Mental Health Services national helpline at 1-800-662-HELP. Thanks to my friends Amy Dresner (RRP #341) and Jeff Gordinier (RRP #453) for introducing me to Dan. And thank you to Dan for being so open and vulnerable. This conversation is a doozie. I'm better for having it. May it impact you similarly. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I absolutely couldn't stop. I knew I needed to stop. I acknowledged that I was a drug addict. I knew that I was gonna probably die if I didn't stop. I had been ODing, stopped breathing a number of times in the middle of the night. Like, waking up, literally, with someone, like, a girlfriend on top of me, like, basically banging on my chest, like, freaking out because I wasn't breathing. Maintaining a supply of these pills was really my only focus. And I had never worked harder at anything in my life. I had never been as committed to anything in my life before that point, which is fascinating in and of itself, right?

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Because here I was, I was running this magazine, and I had a big job at Details. But this was really the only thing that I paid any true, true attention to. Taking pills were my feedings, and I was feeding this beast of this addiction. And so I ultimately got to 15 at a time, and I was doing it about four times a day. And so it was a constant search for pills. It's all I cared about.

• 2:17Rich Roll?

  That's Dan Peres, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:31Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. How goes it? What's the word? My name is Rich Roll. I am indeed your host. Let's do this podcast thing. Here's what we know. Every single day, over 130 people in the US die from an opioid overdose. Forty percent of those involved a prescription. About one quarter of all patients prescribed opioids for chronic pain end up misusing them. That is 10.3 million people. How about this stat? About 80% of people who use heroin first misuse prescription opioids. Think about that. I mean, really, think about that.

• 3:15Rich Roll?

  A tragic epidemic of untold proportions. Opioid addiction has basically precipitated this massive, massive public health crisis, destroying millions of lives unnecessarily, while also taxing our economy at the rate of $78.5 billion per year. So how did we get here? Well, we got here because in the late 1990s, big pharmaceutical companies started pushing these powerful pills, stuff like Vicodin and Oxycodone, on healthcare providers as these panaceas for pain. And they did it with the reassurance that patients would not become addicted.

• 3:59Rich Roll?

  But we all know how that turned out. I mean, irrespective of that, widespread misuse ensued, which led millions of Americans to suffer profound substance abuse disorders, decimating lives, families, and communities along the way. So today, I share one man's journey into the depths of opioid addiction despair. What happened? What it was like? And how he ultimately found a way out? His name is Dan Peres. It is quite the story, and it's all coming up in a couple few. But first.

• 4:41Rich Roll?

  Okay, Dan. So this guy was hardly a born media insider. He's a kid who grew up awkward, obsessed with magic. But he had this gift, this gift for the written word. And this shrewd eye for culture. And it was these talents that prematurely catapulted him to crazy heights in the fast-paced world of glossy magazine publishing. By 24, he was covering catwalks in Paris as the European editor for W Magazine. And just a few short years later, he landed this coveted gig as editor of Details Magazine, which, for those who don't know, was very much an arbiter of all things cool at the time.

• 5:25Rich Roll?

  And that was a post that he held for 15 years. Along the way, Dan nurtured this secret, seeking refuge in opioids to solve a profound imposter syndrome as he navigated this high-voltage netherworld of fashion designers, celebrities, media moguls, and premieres, parties and after-parties. And just like so many people, it's a relationship that began with a back injury and a simple prescription. And what ensued was this love affair. A love affair that quickly escalated to 60 pills a day. Of course, the pills turn on him. There's a betrayal that ensues. This best friend that turns dark.

• 6:08Rich Roll?

  And a profound addiction that took him places he never thought he would go. And produced more instances of incomprehensible demoralization than he cares to remember. And essentially eroded the moral fabric of his life. But by a power greater than himself, Dan found a way out. He's now 12 years sober. And he recollects the vivid details of this experience in his new book. It's called "As Needed For Pain." And you guys know how much I love a good addiction yarn. And this one, this one is amazing. It's a harrowing, but also at times humorous, coming of age memoir that offers a very rare glimpse into New York media's past

• 6:52Rich Roll?

  at a time when print magazines really mattered. And it's this dissection of a life teetering on the edge of destruction and a chronicle of what it took for Dan to pull back from the brink of an addiction that very nearly killed him. Today, he shares his powerful tale from depravity to salvation. And even if the opioid epidemic hasn't affected you directly, chances are, I can bet, that somebody in your life suffers. And if this is the case, my hope is that this conversation helps you better understand the cunning, baffling, and powerful nature of this disease and that it provides hope to those that currently suffer because there is a solution.

• 7:36Rich Roll?

  Before we get into it, I just want to quickly thank my friends, Amy Dresner from episode 341 and Jeff Gordinier from episode 453, both of whom sort of simultaneously introduced me to Dan. And of course, thank you to Dan for being so open and so honest and vulnerable today. This conversation is a doozy. I'm better for having it, and may it impact you similarly. Here's Dan.

• 8:05Rich Roll?

  Thanks for coming up here and doing this.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  I'm super happy to be here.

• 8:09Rich Roll?

  Our mutual friend Jeff Gordinier is the one who keyed me on to everything that you're up to. And I'm excited to talk to you, man.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  I'm excited to talk to you also. Yeah, I mean, Jeff, Jeff is, Jeff's a pretty awesome dude and is, has been really supportive, has been a really good friend to me.

• 8:30Rich Roll?

  You did an event with him recently, right?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Um, he came to an event that I was a part of recently. Uh, I did a, uh, like a reading, uh, near Jeff and I live in the same town. And, um, and then worked at Details together for, for many years also. Uh, so like a bunch of those stories that he talked about when he was on your podcast.

• 8:54Rich Roll?

  The Keanu Reeves sandwich story.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  The Keanu Reeves sandwich story, the sex doll repair, the repairman. That was, that was, uh, Details. Uh, but I did this event in, in New York and, uh, near where we live. And Jeff came to show his support.

• 9:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. Um, yeah, he texted me this morning just to make sure that I was, you know, like all up to speed on everything. And, uh, and he, he reminded me, um, of, of just what a heyday it was at Details during that time. I mean, you were really there, um, at a period where magazines were hyper relevant. And you had quite, you know, the long leash to work with all kinds of amazing writers and really indulge long form storytelling in a way that you just don't see that often now.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  I like to, I like to think that, that I got to ride the last great wave of magazine publishing. Now that's not to say that there's still not great stuff going on in magazines today. Cause of course there is. Um, but, but back then, uh, when we relaunched Details in 2000, uh, there were still huge budgets. Like you said, incredibly long leash, really the, the tons of autonomy, the ability to, to do what we wanted to do and send writers off on crazy adventures and then have them come back and publish, you know, six, seven, eight thousand words, uh, which, which was, you know, which was a real treat. And something that's, that's a little bit more rare today.

• 10:27Rich Roll?

  And deploy these amazing writers like Jonathan Safran Foer and, and August, Auguste Burroughs, who blurbed your book and like all these incredible literary talents.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we were able to sort of tap into that and give them the, the opportunity to write and go for it. And, um, and it seems like that has sort of dried up a little bit, you know, obviously. But, um, it really was, it was, it felt like a golden era, you know? And, and I was really, uh, I'm super grateful to have, to have been a part of that, you know?

• 11:00Rich Roll?

  Well, your story and the book. Is, you know, it's sort of equal parts. It's like a toned down. It's like a toned down version or the insecure person's telling of a bright lights, big city type narrative. You know what I mean? Like you're, you mute the kind of high wire act of editing this, you know, very prominent magazine and kind of navigating, you know, the canyons of lower Manhattan and all of that. But, you know, when I, when I think about like that time and what you were doing, it just, I mean, that was like a rock star job that you had.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  It was and, and one that I was in no way ready for. And that's not like false humility, like, no, no, they shouldn't have given it to me. No, they shouldn't have given it to me. But, you know, they gave me this job running details. I was 28 years old. I had never run any, anything like that.

• 12:02Rich Roll?

  Well, you were running W in Paris prior to that, right?

• 12:05Speaker 01

  I was, I was, I was running W magazine's European bureaus prior to that. But that, you know, very, it was a very lean operation, you know, by comparison. So then I was given this job at Details and, and, you know, moved back to New York and, had to kind of figure all of this stuff out, had to hire a team. And I had never really done any of that before.

• 12:30Rich Roll?

  And what's interesting is you're, you don't like sort of cut the figure of the person you expect to be in that job. First of all, you were super young, but you're like, you know, you talk about this in the book, like you're listening to Hootie and the Blowfish. Even though you were W, like you don't really care about fashion. Like, how does this, how do you end up with being in this arbiter of style and culture?

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I think just, just a quick word about my taste in music. Because I've just been.

• 12:59Rich Roll?

  Jeff must give you a lot of shit about that.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Oh, man, you have no idea.

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  Cause he's got like, his taste is dialed.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  And, and listen, with all due respect to Hootie and the Blowfish.

• 13:07Rich Roll?

  God love them.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  You know, I, I wouldn't even put them that high on my list. I mentioned them in the book. Springfield. But it was like, it totally, it was like, it was, I'm a, I'm a child of the eighties, right? I mean, I was born in the seventies, but like, I really started kind of like absorbing culture in the eighties. And so like, for me, uh, in Baltimore, you know, it was stuff like, you know, it was like Journey and Foreigner and Sticks and, and, and bands like that. Um, and so that, that just sort of stuck with me. So Journey in particular is something that people just like are merciless about when they, when they, when they tease me, you know? People, cause I, here, you're right, you're absolutely right. Here I was now running this magazine and I would have all these editors who were plugged in.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Some had worked at Rolling Stone and Spin and, you know, they knew these worlds and they would come to me to pitch stories on bands that like, I had just only maybe even just heard of, in some cases had not heard of. And then you have people like Jeff and, and others who were like music. Right. You know, freaks and junkies, you know, um, that were like, oh man, like, can we do something a little different? A little new agey, whatever the case may be. Um, but yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't a job, uh, it wasn't an, I wasn't an obvious person for that role. Um, but I think that's what, what led them to want to give it to me. You know, I think they wanted to try something different.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  I think that the men's magazine landscape at that time, uh, was changing very quickly. This was the era of what we called the lad magazines, like Maxim and stuff and things like that. And pretty like TNA driven and, and things like that, that just wasn't necessarily something that appealed to me. Right. So I, you know, and, and the team that I assembled, you know, we came up with this, I, I concept basically of, of, you know, creating a magazine for, for men, not necessarily beer and babes and barbecue and sports, you know? But, but a new type of guy who could stand on his own two feet in lots of different ways

• 15:16Speaker 01

  and didn't, didn't, uh, need to have a woman in a wet t-shirt on the cover of a magazine in order for him to be like, oh, cool, I'll pick that up. So we started to kind of look at things a little differently.

• 15:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it tapped the metrosexual zeitgeist nerve, I suppose. And it kind of gave guys permission to care about things like style and cool music and stuff like that.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  And skincare.

• 15:39Rich Roll?

  And things, you know, yeah, right. You know, do you, did you know a guy named Jamie Hooper who ran Maxim?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  The name sounds familiar, but, but no.

• 15:49Rich Roll?

  I'm a little bit older than you, but he was one of the guys that I ran around New York with when I was living there, like way back in the day.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  I feel like there were, but there were lots of guys like, like that. And this was what, and, and by the way, at this time in our culture, right around 2000, even the late 90s, this, this was all there was, like this was, this stuff was booming, absolutely booming. This was the, the, the approach to, to talking about masculinity, you know? And it was like, you know, fart jokes and, and like the hottest women in bikini competitions, you know, vote online now, you know? I mean, and so like, and that, when I looked at that, I was like, hey, listen, that just doesn't like appeal to me, you know?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  And, and so, uh, so we kind of cobbled together this magazine that you're right. I think tapped the metrosexual vein and, and allowed us to look at, with a, with a broader sort of filter, things that were affecting men's lives and things that men should care about. Where previously you, you, uh, you didn't see too many guys sort of like openly embracing a love of, you know, aftershave or, or, you know, or whatever, or cooking or architecture or design, whatever it is, you know?

• 17:12Rich Roll?

  I remember just sort of thinking as I would page through that magazine around that time, during that period of time, like, is this for gay dudes or is this for me? Like, is this like, you know, it was sort of, it was sort of, it had a gay slant, but it wasn't overtly gay. Like it was meant to kind of capture that audience, but also be broader.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  That's, that's exactly right. It was, it was meant to sort of smash the stereotype of what. What's a guy today, you know? And, and we did everything that we could to sort of blur the line between gay and straight. And so, uh, we would do stories that, that people would look at and be like, hey, whoa, like, what, like,

• 17:52Rich Roll?

  It's a little bit too far out there for me.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  As a, as a straight guy, should I be reading this? But, but the, the beauty of it is that it wasn't designed to be a magazine for everyone. And so we, we knew who our audience was and the audience grew very quickly and the audience responded to what we were doing. And, and I would just often say like, hey, like if this, if what we're doing is like bothering you or, or, um, you know, uh, if you feel like it's sort of putting your masculinity or your idea of masculinity at risk, then the, cool, you don't have to, you don't have to read it, you know? Uh, and that, that was fine, but, but to, to kind of blur that line a little bit and, and,

• 18:34Speaker 01

  talk to men who may have been straight or may have been gay. And, and aside from their, uh, sexual preference, were, had all of the same interests. And so this was our guy.

• 18:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  And so, uh, but certainly not every guy, there's no question about it.

• 18:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, and perhaps not even you, right? That's the irony, right?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  And perhaps not even me.

• 19:02Rich Roll?

  You don't, you don't cut the figure of like the details reader, which is interesting.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Uh, it, it is interesting because at the time when we've, when we relaunched the magazine with this sort of new, um, uh, approach to, to, to making content, uh, I was out doing lots of press and promoting the, the, the magazine and saying, it's for guys like me. And meanwhile, I'm in a pair of like,

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Converse All Stars and like ripped up jeans and a T-shirt and a hoodie, you know. But I had just been living in Paris for, for almost three years and had been exposed to this the kind of European or kind of continental sense of-

• 19:42Rich Roll?

  You could like talk the language and-

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely, you know, and I would look at these guys, you know, and, and I'd be like, you know, that guy's definitely gay. And then like this like, you know, beautiful wife would, would, you know, throw up. But like, I was like looking at him and the way he had like his scarf wrapped around his neck and the way the suit maybe was a little more tapered than, than the average American guy's suit. Or, you know, listening to him talk about wine or art or whatever it is. And I was like, oh wow, like this is a really interesting approach to masculinity. But no, I, I absolutely wasn't, wasn't that guy. I think I grew a little bit to become that guy, but I was, I was so deeply insecure with who I was. I, if I'm being perfectly honest with you, I don't think I, I know what kind of guy

• 20:27Speaker 01

  I was, you know, I really, I really don't. And so it, it allowed me just to kind of be a journalist and, and react to where I felt the culture was going, which is what I think we did at Details.

• 20:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, interesting. Well, let's take it back. Uh, let's play a little game I know you're familiar with called What It Was Like, What Happened and What It's Like Now.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  I know, I know it well.

• 20:50Rich Roll?

  You know the structure of this. So, uh, so you, you're, you're from New York. You grew up in the suburbs outside of New York, right?

• 20:56Speaker 01

  I grew up in Baltimore.

• 20:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, in Baltimore, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm from DC, so.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Uh, whereabouts?

• 21:01Rich Roll?

  Right there, Bethesda.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, okay.

• 21:03Rich Roll?

  Not too far.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Same thing.

• 21:04Rich Roll?

  Lot of lacrosse. I know your brother was a big lacrosse star.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Exactly. Lot of lacrosse, um, you know, lot of, uh, yeah, a lot of, lot of star athletes, um, lot of, uh, you know, crab cakes, lot of, you know, whales on belts and things like that.

• 21:23Rich Roll?

  Exactly. Did you go to a public high school?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  I went to a private high school, actually. I went to a school called Boys Latin.

• 21:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's Boys Latin in Gilman.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 21:32Rich Roll?

  I went to Landin, so probably, my, my high school probably played lacrosse against you guys.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  I'm sure, I'm sure you did. You would not have played against me though.

• 21:41Rich Roll?

  Not me neither, you know. I wasn't partaking in that world at all.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Uh, but, uh, but yeah, so yeah, I grew up, that's where I grew up.

• 21:47Rich Roll?

  Right, cool. And you end up going to NYU, yes?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:51Rich Roll?

  So walk me through just your introduction to New York.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Oh, man. I I was in love with New York from from the moment I I went on my first visit, probably when I was thirteen or fourteen. Um, it felt like the perfect place for me because it it seemed like the the ideal place for someone to just kind of get lost in a crowd. And and that's what I wanted to do, you know. Um, you know, we talk about these lacrosse guys and and and if if you have, you know, listeners out there that don't know this culture, uh, it's a really interesting culture, right? I mean, it's but it's akin to football in Texas or, you know, um, you know, basketball in different parts of the

• 22:36Speaker 01

  country and soccer now, of course. So, uh, but it's very, at the time, anyway, it was like super bro-y. Guys were like dipping and and, um, uh, I mean, this was this world that I didn't belong to, nor really did I aspire to.

• 22:55Rich Roll?

  Duck shoes.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Totally. Duck shoes or bucks.

• 22:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  You know, and and, uh, and like faded jeans and and, um, and, you know, polo shirts, you know, with a collar up.

• 23:06Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Um, it was it was stuff that that like, like John Hughes and others, I think, have documented also incredibly well. But, uh, it just wasn't my world. And so I, when I first went to New York, I was like, oh, wow, cool. Like, this this this works for me because I can kind of escape here and and and maybe even kind of reinvent myself or recreate myself here. So I loved it from the moment I I got there.

• 23:33Rich Roll?

  Right. Um, what's interesting about your story is that you you would you would suspect or predict that, you know, that young person in New York City gets introduced to drugs and alcohol pretty rapidly and and the the the love affair and the decline would begin, you know, almost immediately. But that's not your story.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  That's not my story. You know, I, um,

• 23:55Speaker 01

  I was always in love with journalism, you know, so while while like the those sort of like kids, there were the lacrosse kids, I was like the high school newspaper guy. I was like super into magic tricks and like studying magic and stuff like that, which I I did like from from like as far back as I can remember. And so here I am in New York and you know, like home of every major media outlet. And I was like, oh, my God, this is gonna be amazing. And and I kind of started working for the for the NYU school paper and was taking these journalism courses. And when you take journalism courses at NYU, at least back then, professors would bring in, you know, big media figures as guest

• 24:38Speaker 01

  lecturers and things like that. So Dan Rather, who at the time was anchoring the CBS Evening News, came in and spoke and big newspaper writers and magazine editors were were the faculty of of the NYU journalism program. So it was just absolutely amazing. And listen, I started drinking a little bit and smoking some pot and things like that. But I didn't, I wasn't going out. There were kids that that got to NYU at eighteen that just embraced the New York City nightlife in ways that that I did not, you know, and they would go to all of these hot clubs and this and that. And, you know, this was back at the time where Randy Gerber was just starting to sort of like open up tons of places in

• 25:20Speaker 01

  and around New York. And they would go to these places. And I I just didn't do that, you know. But, no, my my my love affair with drugs, like with so many things in my life, I was a late bloomer.

• 25:33Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  And like, loss of my virginity, introduction to to to drugs, like, you know, lots of stuff.

• 25:41Rich Roll?

  Just a good Jewish boy.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Just a good Jewish boy from the suburbs of Baltimore, you know.

• 25:45Rich Roll?

  So the first main gig that you get is at the Times, right, New York Times?

• 25:49Speaker 01

  I was a copy boy at the New York Times. And back when they had copy boys, I don't even know if that's something that exists there anymore. But it was such an amazing thing. It, you know, the Times building has since moved, but they were back in Times Square on Forty Third Street. And and they they actually had

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Press, they would actually printed a portion of the papers right there In the building. On the ground floor of the building and trucks would roll out right from that Uh huh. Main floor. It was incredibly romantic. You know, if you were, if you were a lover of journalism and a student of journalism. Uh, this was like the ideal being there and being in that newsroom and it was a really Kind of amazing experience for me, but I also got, I mean, I got reprimanded once for whistling. You know, like, like I'm not like a whistler, but for some reason I was like, you know, and, and literally some editor was like, hey, no whistling in the newsroom.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Um, I was like, whoa, got it. Yeah. All right. Um, but they would send me down. I worked like a five PM to 11 PM. Shift or maybe even was a little bit longer than that and they would send me down to the, to the, to the press room to print, to pick up. Uh, first run copies. Uh huh. And, and I would bring a stack up to the newsroom and would like hand them out to the, to the various sort of news desks and would have ink all over my hands and my, and my wrist. So you talk about. You know, there's this expression in journalism, you know, it being an ink stained wretch and that's like, I literally was. So that it was, it was a very cool place to be. Did you think you were gonna stay there and work your way up? A hundred percent. Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  I, I had every intention of, of being a journalist and in the mold of like David Halberstam or, or Woodward and Bernstein, you know, um, absolutely. So where does the magazine thing start to come about? You know, the magazine thing, well, listen, you know, I couldn't get a job. I graduated NYU. Um, with a degree in journalism, uh, or dual degree, also history, but, but main, main focus on journalism and, and sent out like old school. In envelopes with stamps into, into mailboxes, you know, tons of resumes and, and just got like a flurry of.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Hey, we'll keep your resume on file letters like back at me, you know, including one from details magazine, you know, interestingly, and, and, um. So I was just desperate for, for a job. I wanted to stay in New York, but, but time was running out from a, from a financial standpoint and, um. I ended up getting a job at, at a company called Fairchild Publications, which. Has changed a lot over the years, but at the time, uh, published Women's Wear Daily and a number of other papers and magazines, including W Magazine.

• 28:43Rich Roll?

  So you say you're a late bloomer, but you, it seems like you didn't waste too much time moving, moving up quickly.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  You know, it's interesting. I think like late bloomer with like

• 28:54Rich Roll?

  Life experience.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  With, with everything related to life experience, with the exception of my career. Um, and so, no, I, I, my career moved very quickly and, and, um, it's puzzling to many, uh, myself included, uh, but.

• 29:09Rich Roll?

  It's that self-deprecating thing.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  It is.

• 29:12Rich Roll?

  The insecurity.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  It is. Well, you know, listen, um.

• 29:16Rich Roll?

  Obviously you're very good at what you do. I mean, you know, listen, you, you held, you know, these two, you know, pretty prominent posts and you held the details post for 15 years.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  I did. I did. Um, yeah, like my career, my career has been pretty amazing and, and, and I feel blessed. I really do. I have a lot of gratitude for that, uh, and for the fact that I was able to hold on to the details job. But, but, uh, I was a copy boy at the New York Times. I, I started then, I became a, a research editor, a research assistant or like fact checker, basically at Esquire magazine, uh, which I had always, you know, loved. And then I got this job working initially at Fairchild Publications for a, a, a publication that's no longer around. It was called the Daily News Record or DNR, uh, which was the

• 30:08Speaker 01

  male equivalent of Women's Wear Daily. So it covered the.

• 30:12Rich Roll?

  Like industry rag for fashion.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  For, for men.

• 30:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  You know, and, and I was a knitwear sweaters and knitwear editor.

• 30:20Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  And, um, I, I, and I dove into that with, with all the gusto that any journalist on a new beach should. Uh, but, but very shortly after I got that job, really like within six months, I was asked if I wanted to come over to, to Women's Wear Daily for a really coveted job there on what was the I page, E Y E I page. And that was their like party and events coverage. So I went literally from like covering sweater manufacturers, you know, and going to conventions of like.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Knitwear companies to going out and covering movie premieres and and and going to all of these events and meeting and interacting with all of these like extraordinary cultural figures within the period of like six months.

• 31:09Rich Roll?

  And then how long before they ship you off to Paris?

• 31:12Speaker 01

  I got shipped off to Paris, uh, probably three years later after that, three or four years after that.

• 31:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that must have been crazy being there, going all like fashion shows and, you know, hanging out with Karl Lagerfeld and like all these, you know, wacky people from that world.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  It was, it was, yeah, it was a very weird time for me because I, that hadn't been my life and that hadn't been my passion and.

• 31:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you weren't like the kid who was reading, you know.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 31:38Rich Roll?

  Those magazines as a kid.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  I'm afraid not, you know, but what I was, was it was a, was a journalist and was an editor who, who, um, really loved storytelling and, and really loved to get people to talk. Uh, so even this, you know, me being on the other side of this conversation is, is, is something that I'm not entirely comfortable, uh, doing. This is not my comfort zone.

• 32:04Rich Roll?

  Well, you got to book out, so you got to get comfortable with this.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I'm, I'm working through it, but, but I, oh, I'd really preferred and still do to be on the other side and to be the one asking the questions and kind of drawing the story out. So, so whether or not I had an interest in, in fashion, I look, I didn't even speak French, right? Let's start there, you know, they, they said, hey, we're gonna, how would you feel about going and, and, and running the Paris office, uh, for W magazine? And I was like, great, you know, I was 25.

• 32:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  And I was like, cool. Okay. What do I need to do? You know? Well, you know, how, do you speak any French? I was like, no, I don't. And started to take some lessons, which I didn't really pay very close attention to, which is like a huge regret.

• 32:55Rich Roll?

  Well, one of the things that was interesting about that time that I read about you is that, you know, this, I guess you could consider it a weakness that you didn't have this inherent affinity for this world or this knowledge base for it, but you turn that into a strength. So when you're interviewing these people, instead of talking to them about the things that everyone's asking them about, you're asking them about their personal lives.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 33:19Rich Roll?

  And they would find that refreshing.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  They did.

• 33:22Rich Roll?

  And that was kind of a way to emotionally connect with the people that you were covering and engender their trust and maybe get something a little bit more interesting out of them.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  And I think that that's, yeah, that's absolutely true. But I also think that as a journalist, that's actually hugely important to do whatever it is you're covering, you know. Now, look, if you're covering a political race or you're covering some community board meeting in some small town, you know, you want to sort of stick to what you're there to sort of write about as a journalist. But if you're having conversations about feature stories, you know, you want to make a connection with the subject, the person that you're talking to and even identify with them if you can and be empathetic, whatever the case

• 34:09Speaker 01

  may be. So I was kind of dropped into this world where, you know, these people, these men and women, these fashion designers, these icons, had been talking for their lives and careers about hemlines and fabric selection and things like that, you know. And I would come in and be like, so like, tell me about your childhood or what did you have for breakfast this morning? Or when was the last time you just went for a walk around town? I once, it was with Karl Lagerfeld, the designer for Chanel, and I was talking, I was like, when was the last time you just walked around Paris? And he's like, well, my dear boy,

• 34:52Speaker 01

  I cannot walk around Paris. And you're right, because he was like a walking caricature of himself, right? With the ponytail and the fan and all of that. But...

• 35:01Rich Roll?

  Does the guy, does he literally always have the fan?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  You know, I spent a lot of time with him. I did. And I, I honestly don't know if I ever saw a fan. I, I may have seen one like resting on a table somewhere, but it was certainly not like some, some, some prop.

• 35:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  So I, I was able to, to, to kind of find a way in and develop relationships with these people and, and, and, and cover them in, in ways that, that were maybe a little bit, um, different.

• 35:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  You know?

• 35:40Rich Roll?

  So you get the call for Details 2000?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  The call for Details in 2000 and, and, uh, you know, Details had been around for many years. Details was, was a really amazing magazine. It was founded in the eighties by, by, you know, brilliant woman named Annie Flanders and, and, uh, it was, um, very, you know, sort of downtown and plugged into, into the club scene and, and, and a whole level of the culture that like just wasn't even on my radar. Uh, and, uh, was ultimately purchased by, by Conde Nast, Cy Newhouse, who ran for many years, Conde Nast magazines, which publishes Vogue and The New Yorker and Vanity Fair and all that. Uh, and, uh, and then it had a couple, it had, James Truman was a great editor there.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  And it had become, they had really sort of built it up. But as they were building it up, like I said before, the whole landscape regarding men's magazines specifically was, was shifting into something that was, was kind of seeping into our culture from, from England, uh, which were these magazines that were rooted more toward like this sort of lad culture.

• 36:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Beer and babes.

• 36:56Rich Roll?

  Maxim was really the, the kind of touchstone of all of that.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  Maxim, Maxim was the holy grail of that. And, and then there were like a number of, of, uh, competitors sort of started to crop up to try to sort of grab their share of that business, because Maxim just like exploded onto the culture and, uh, and in, in ways that men's magazines had never even really seen before. And so. At Conde Nast, they tried to turn details into a magazine like that. They actually hired the former editor in chief of Maxim, a guy named Mark Golan, to come in and kind of maximify details. And that just didn't work. And ultimately, it really didn't even fit in with the sort of broader

• 37:40Speaker 01

  kind of corporate Conde Nast identity of luxury and sophistication and culture. You know, these are the people that, you know, did Conde Nast, Traveler and The New Yorker. And then all of a sudden, they were trying to do this, hey, how do we compete in this world of men's magazines? And that didn't work. So they shut it down and they were going to relaunch it. And they asked me if I wanted to be the editor in chief that did that.

• 38:05Rich Roll?

  So the idea being rather than try to compete in that world to counter program against it and find a niche with a different audience.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, let's find some white space here, you know, anyone that that does any kind of branding, you know, like you don't, you don't want to just jump into a crowded market and do the same thing that the market leaders are doing, right? You can do that. And we saw that with people trying to imitate Maxim. Uh, but, but it's certainly smarter to, to try to find a different path and, and or to maybe reach an audience that, that feels underserved by the kind of current constellation of magazines. And so that's, that's, that's what we ended up doing.

• 38:53Rich Roll?

  So much of the job seems to be having your finger on the, the pulse of like, what's cool now? Like you, you have to really be dialed into lower Manhattan, right? And like, what is actually happening that like the rest of America isn't aware of? That's kind of percolating in those subcultures.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Right. It, it was finding the trend before it was a trend. It was, it was being, you know, just early enough.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  On an idea and then, you know, sharing that with your audience. You know, you could be too early and it would go nowhere. And then if you were late, everyone had already sort of seen the idea. So it was just kind of trying to, to, to, to get it at the exact moment when it was just before it became a thing and, and hoping actually that your story on it is what helped make it a thing.

• 39:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  You know?

• 39:47Rich Roll?

  So then your job is to find the people. Cause I mean, you're, if you're like listening to Rick Springfield and who do you?

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  And you're, you're like, you don't seem like the right guy, but, but I would take, I would imagine your talent is like knowing who those people are and recruiting them to be part of this team.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  I think taste in music aside, and I'm.

• 40:10Rich Roll?

  I'm just using that as an example of.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  But that's, that's, it's a good example.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  Poor Rick Springfield, man. Jesse's Girl, listen, you're in your car.

• 40:21Rich Roll?

  Nothing but love.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  If Jesse's Girl comes on, tell me you don't just take a moment.

• 40:26Rich Roll?

  It's all good.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Particularly if you're alone, you know, turn that up a tiny little bit.

• 40:30Rich Roll?

  All right, I'll give you that.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  All right.

• 40:31Rich Roll?

  But I think even Rick Springfield would say, yeah, it's probably not cool.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  He probably would.

• 40:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  But a lot, a lot of love for you, Rick.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I, I think I was able to, to put together a team of people that could find those things of like cool hunters and people that, that, that understood the culture and, and, and could, could see what was coming. And we're tapped in in really important ways in lots of different categories. So, you know, food, you know, bar culture, music certainly, entertainment, travel, also fashion, obviously, all sorts of things. And then they would come to me and say, hey, this is, this is what's kind of percolating out there.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  And I think my strength was the ability to say, okay, this is a story. This isn't a story. Or hey, how do we find a way into this story? You know, what, what is this? What, what, what makes sense here for our reader based upon what you're telling me? So you're right. Like I was never the guy that was the cool hunter. I was never cool, period. And so, but I, I had the ability to say, hey, that's cool. And so that, that's what, that's what made me able to do my job. Um, but no, if you dropped me in Lower Man, listen, I know people, we've all grown up with people that you put them anywhere.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  We still, I still know people today, I'm 48, that like you kind of put them anywhere and really.

• 42:09Rich Roll?

  And they find it.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  They find it and all of a sudden they know the great, the coolest people. Oh, I just got invited to this one, by this one. I was never that guy, but I was able to find those people and, and in turn find some pretty interesting stories.

• 42:24Rich Roll?

  But you would still have to, I mean, I remember reading details when Truman was the editor. And there's always, I mean, this is a thing with these kind of magazines. There's, you know, you see Graydon Carter doing this, you know, when he was editing Vanity Fair. But like that, the beautiful photo of the editor and then the letter at the beginning, right? And, and the editor always looks super cool in some, you know, getup or whatever. And then you have to write this thing about what's going to be in the issue and kind of synopsize like what's happening right now. Was that, was that challenging for you? Like, I would imagine you did that, right?

• 42:59Speaker 01

  I did.

• 43:00Rich Roll?

  They dress you up and make you look.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  No, um, I wrote the letter, but there was never a photo.

• 43:04Rich Roll?

  Oh, there was never a photo of you?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  There was never a photo of me on that page. I was, I, I, you know, here's, we go back to like the sort of insecurity theme. I, I never liked being photographed. Um, this isn't being recorded, is it? I, I, I was never comfortable in front of a camera and I hated, hated being at an event and having someone say, hey, let's get your picture.

• 43:27Rich Roll?

  And that's your job. I mean, you talk about this in the book, just being, you going to all of these crazy events that most people, you know, a lot of people would kill to be able to attend. And you're a wallflower and there, you got publicists yanking on you, take a picture with this person and that person, and you just not wanting to do it.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Right. And, and I think like, I will, I'll try to sort of like. Draw out the distinction between being a wallflower and not wanting to have my photo taken. I could could maneuver around the room. I was I I really have always enjoyed talking to people. Um, and so and I could do that with relative ease. It was the and I I write about this in the book, you're right, where like, I would be at some event that I was hosting for like, some Hollywood celebrity, and they would be like, oh, hey, Dan, let's get a picture of you and so and so. And it would literally be the superhero from the superhero movie. And I would have to stand there with him. And I, as I write

• 44:22Speaker 01

  in the book, I always felt like the before photo in like, some plastic surgeon's office, you know, next to this like, chiseled guy with like, this chicklet smile and like, abs that you could see through a suit. And like, I was kind of like, just never really feeling it. So, the beauty of being the editor in chief of the magazine was that, when it came to that letter from the editor that had to go in every issue, I could just say, hey, we're not going to put a photo of me on this page. And that just became the norm. Uh huh, cuz you were the boss. Cuz I was the boss. Right. Alright, well, let's get to the drugs. Yeah. It all starts with a cartwheel.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  It does. Oh, man. I, you know, I, um, you know, have done lots of stupid things in my life, and and and I I detail many of them, actually, in in in my book. Uh, but perhaps the stupidest, and and maybe the the the one, if, not even maybe, I think the one thing that actually, I think, forever changed the course of my life, was the cartwheel, you know, and, um, I think men have done so many dumb fucking things over the years to impress women. I mean, countless. In my case, it was a cartwheel. And and so, here

• 45:40Speaker 01

  I was, I was in my early twenties, I was, uh, was working still at at Women's Wear Daily, covering these parties and and things like that, movie premieres and stuff like that. And was meeting up with a couple of friends, and, um, we were in the lobby of a of an office building in in lower Manhattan. And, uh, this friend came off the elevator, one of the guy that that I that me and another friend were there to meet, and was with like, three or four young women, and, uh, was introducing us, and said, hey, so and so just got a job promotion. And I was like, oh, that's amazing. But, can she do this? And I attempted a cartwheel, which it's important to note, I had never done before.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  And, and, um, and, and it looked as if I had never done one before because I came crashing down on the floor and, and hurt my back. So, but this was like me, like seeking attention. This was me, like this is my, this is like a theme throughout my, my entire life really was like, where am I, where am I getting validation from here, you know, and, and how am I getting eyes on me? And, um, uh, in this instance, it was gonna be a cartwheel and I did it and I hurt my back and I went to see a doctor, probably a day or two later and was prescribed Vicodin and, um,

• 47:06Speaker 01

  you know, that's how the seed was planted for me, you know, and, and took this Vicodin, ultimately had back surgery, two back surgeries, actually on my, on my lower, uh, back and, and, uh, was essentially off to the races, you know, with opiates.

• 47:22Rich Roll?

  Was it that thing where the first time you took it, you just knew?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  You know, um, it was probably, it wasn't until the third or fourth time, which was still within a matter of a couple of days of taking it.

• 47:37Rich Roll?

  Well, initially, if the pain is severe enough.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:40Rich Roll?

  It mutes any kind of high that you're gonna experience.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. And so I think when I first took it, it, it did exactly what it was prescribed to do, uh, which was, um, mellow out the, whatever pain I was feeling, but it, it was only really a day or two later that I, I realized, oh, wow, this is,

• 48:00Speaker 01

  this is, you know, how I wanna feel, you know, and you just saw me like I just took a deep breath.

• 48:04Rich Roll?

  Answer to every question I ever had, you know, or

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Well, it's like

• 48:10Rich Roll?

  The solution to every problem I didn't know that I had.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Oh, it's like, oh, this is what I've been looking for. This is, this is gonna make me feel like me. This is what I need. Like, I'm home. And, and it, it was the beginning of at least what I thought was like a really important love affair from being

• 48:30Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Honest, you know, um, and it happened incredibly quickly.

• 48:35Rich Roll?

  Well, the thing that gets, a couple of observations. I mean, first of all, the thing that gets missed in stories like this often is the love affair aspect of it. Like, it does work for a period of time.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 48:46Rich Roll?

  And it's serving some need, right? And it's fascinating how people find their way, I mean, not everybody, but a lot of people like, find their way to the, the drug that does something that feels like it's, you know, it's that missing puzzle piece in their life.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  And, and it was for me. And so, you know, I, I had grown up in Baltimore. I was the younger brother of like, one of the town stars, you know, like a golden boy in town, my brother Jeff, whom I love dearly. And he was the captain of the lacrosse team, which in that kind of like lacrosse obsessed environment, was like icon status, right? He was, um, he went to Cornell. He was like, you know, on his way to the Ivy League. He was great looking and had tons of girlfriends. And I was the sort of the little brother who like did magic tricks in the basement and, and wasn't any of those things.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  And so, um, and this takes me to the, the cartwheel even, you know, like, it's just like, I was like seeking something, you know? And I just had never found it. And, and so with the cartwheel, it was seeking validation or appreciation or trying to get a laugh or trying to get a girlfriend. And I mean, who the hell does a cartwheel to get a girlfriend, but, or a date even, not even a girlfriend, but that's sort of where I was. So by the, by the time I, I took these Vicodin, I, I was, I was like, I was a seeker, you know, and I was searching for something. And it was that missing piece for, for me. And it was amazing. I, I don't want to, to glamorize,

• 50:33Speaker 01

  you know, uh, any kind of drug use, if I'm being honest, you know, but, but in that moment, it, it was, um, like being enveloped by, it was just being like, being like embraced in a way that I had never been embraced.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  The warm blanket.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  It's the warm blanket, as I describe, exactly. It was like being just wrapped in a warm blanket. And, and it was like, oh, this is, this is how I should feel.

• 51:00Rich Roll?

  And not, prior to that, like, no real, you know, indicia that you have this inner addict inside of you, like, no, no, you know, issues with alcohol or anything like that, which is like, really interesting.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  No, none whatsoever, you know, I mean, listen, I partook, I, you know, I mean, I went to college and I drank and, like I said, I smoked pot and, and I had, like, but I had like a healthy, you know, relationship with that stuff, you know, and nothing in, nothing that would have indicated in any way that I should probably steer clear of any of this stuff, until the Vicodin came into my life.

• 51:44Rich Roll?

  I was listening to your conversation with Dr. Drew the other day, and he was, he was like befuddled and confused by this, until you, until you mentioned that you were Jewish, and it was like this light bulb goes off in him, like, he's searching for, like, he's trying to, he's trying to do the math in his head about how this works.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  That was a really interesting part, really interesting part of that conversation was, was, yeah, when he was trying to get to the bottom of it, and he, childhood trauma, and he-

• 52:10Rich Roll?

  Dad and alcoholic?

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, there's none of that, none of that, and he's like, what, you know, you know, what's your ethnicity, you know, or what's your sort of, like, where, like, what's your makeup? And I was like, oh, you're an Ashkenazi Jew. He's like, absolutely, there it is, you know, and I was like, what? I nearly fell off my chair.

• 52:28Rich Roll?

  I'd never heard that before.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  I'd never heard that either, and, and I have a, like, a huge amount of respect for Dr. Drew, but I, you know, in that moment, I was like, what?

• 52:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, basically, for people that are listening or watching, what he said was that there's something specific to Ashkenazi Jews that, that have, like, this, what did he say exactly, something about, like, later in life addiction with opioids specifically, or something about that, that lineage of humanity that cottons on to that in a specific way?

• 52:59Speaker 01

  That's correct, and, and, and that's precisely what he said, and, and now, for all the Jewish moms that may be out there listening to this, you know, don't, don't lock, don't lock- Your children up quite yet, you know, but that's this is this belief that that that he has and and and I can't speak to it, but but uh, because surely he knows what he's talking about, but I just can't speak to it, but he, yeah, light bulb went off and and so that that was that was it for me. I I um, and so let's say that's true. Okay. You know, um, these these pills came into my life and and boom, here I here I am, you know?

• 53:38Rich Roll?

  And this quickly progresses. Uh, you know, you get up to like sixty pills a day. And it becomes your primary occupation, trying to source and fill these scripts and make sure that your stash never runs out. And it's like, reading this and listening to you talk about it, you know, I I I relate to that like obsession.

• 54:04Rich Roll?

  But it also just reminds me how exhausting it is. It's like the amount of effort that went into making sure that you always had what you needed. I mean, it's it's just, it's not a preoccupation. It is the predominant thing that lives and breathes inside you twenty four hours a day.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  I had never worked harder at anything in my life. Before that point, I had I had never been as committed to anything in my life before that point. Maintaining a supply of these pills was really my only focus. And uh, I had a big job at details at this point and and family and friends and and, you know, trying to like manage relationships and things like that. But this was really uh, the only thing that I paid any true, true attention to, you know?

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Which is fascinating in and of itself, right? Because here I was, I was running this magazine and and and uh, but this was really all I cared about. And so when you get up to, as I did, sixty Vicodin a day, I I ultimately switched over to another drug that that with the numbers came down that

• 55:19Rich Roll?

  It's called Roxy

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Roxy Code

• 55:21Rich Roll?

  It's like twice the dosage.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  It was twice the dosage, but without the Tylenol. So like with, I was taking extra strength Vicodin. I was essentially taking, so I was taking, let's say sixty a day. I would take to just to break it down. I would take, and, and by the way, not immediately. I, I worked my way up to these numbers, right?

• 55:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  So, um, I didn't just dive in, you know, you know, 60 seems like a good number. I, I ultimately got to 15 at a time and I was doing it about four times a day. And so, um, uh, the, the, the, the active ingredients of an extra strength Vicodin are hydrocodone, which is the, the, you know, the codeine based sort of, you know, analgesic painkiller.

• 56:04Rich Roll?

  The opiate part of it.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  The opiate portion of it and acetaminophen, uh, or, you know, which is, which is Tylenol, right? And so I was taking, in addition to all of the opiates, I was essentially taking a small bottle of extra strength Tylenol a day.

• 56:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  For years.

• 56:23Rich Roll?

  Right. And we all know the dangers of acetaminophen, but that was another thing that Dr. Drew talked about, that he still doesn't see liver toxicity in people that are taking Vicodin at, at that dosage level because the liver figures out a way to process all of this and keep you from dying.

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 56:40Rich Roll?

  And it's amazing.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  And when I got sober and, and went to my doctor, he was like, we need to take a look at your liver.

• 56:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  You know, like first and foremost, which, which was fine.

• 56:51Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  You know, um, uh, yeah, the body has a way of, and, and, you know, a way of sort of like making it work for addicts and, and, and the addiction is super crazy powerful. I, I'm of the, of the belief that like it, it's quite possible that the, the addiction also just sort of finds a way to like, like keep letting, allowing you to feed it, you know? And that may sound bizarre, but that's sort of like my view of it. Um, but, but when you need that many pills, it's really hard to get them. And so, so it does take a lot of energy and I put a ton of energy into it and, and was quite artful about it, you know, I, I, I think, you know, like I. You know, addicts are brilliant liars.

• 57:31Rich Roll?

  Unbelievable.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, like we.

• 57:33Rich Roll?

  That was one thing Jeff said, said, said, ask, uh, ask, ask Dan if he thinks he's the best liar in the world.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Right. We, we are masterful liars. And, and, and, and then certainly like, like, you know, like the really close, like first cousin of that is great con artists. You know, and so I would go into these doctors' offices and I was doctor shopping. I was seeing probably four or five different doctors at a time and, and filling different prescriptions in different parts of town. Uh, and I would put on quite a performance for them, um, on, on each visit. And, um, and, and over time, the, the performances became more and more elaborate because suspicions.

• 58:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  You know?

• 58:21Rich Roll?

  Elaborate or slash comedic and transparent.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 58:25Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:26Rich Roll?

  Um, and I suspect it was a different, I, I would imagine it's harder now.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  I think it is.

• 58:32Rich Roll?

  Everything that's happening and the crisis that, you know, our culture is weathering at the moment. But at the time, and this was another interesting thing that came up with you and Dr. Drew. Uh, this was the heyday of the pain management clinics and this idea that, you know, opioids were, you know, the solution. And this white hat, you know, mentality and the litigious nature of our, our healthcare system. Such that, you know, no doctor wants to get sued for ignoring.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  Denying.

• 59:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like saying, well, he was bullshitting me and then finding out he was wrong. So there was just a, an epidemic of over-subscription.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  There was, and, and this is where I think like the, the conversation with Dr. Drew.

• 59:14Rich Roll?

  Well, let's get into it because I have thoughts on this too. And I have a sense of what you wanted to say and didn't say.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  I, and it got interesting and it took an unexpected turn when Drew said to me.

• 59:26Rich Roll?

  He, he was, he became an apologist for the pharmaceutical industry in a certain way.

• 59:31Speaker 01

  And maybe in a certain way, he did, he, he was very dismissive of, of the, the complicity. Like, yes, what, what he said, and I was. Not stunned, but I was taken aback. Um, and I don't want to misrepresent what he said.

• 59:49Rich Roll?

  And, and let me just say for the record too, like I, I had, I've got crazy respect for Dr.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:54Rich Roll?

  Nothing, nothing but love for him too.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Same, but he, he put it all on the medical community, the doctors that were writing the prescriptions. And, and uh, he was like, no, no, no, no, no, it's all the doctors, it's all the doctors. And again, I, I don't want to misrepresent him. I was surely, you know, um, I think anyone knows that the pharmaceutical companies here were complicit also, but, but I was about to go down this road with him where I was going to say something to the effect of, um, listen, these pharmaceutical companies have spent hundreds of millions of dollars, um, in marketing to, to do a number of different things. And I'm going to circle back to the, to the point where you just were, but, but to do a number of different things. One of those, those things,

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  I think quite simply was to falsely minimize the risk of addiction with respect to, to opiates. Right?

• 1:00:47Rich Roll?

  Right. And that's one thing Drew agreed with.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:50Rich Roll?

  Is these people don't understand addiction.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  Right. You know, but they have also spent hundreds of millions of dollars helping convince doctors that, and this is in my opinion, helping convince doctors that they were ignoring patients' pain and that, uh, there were broader uses for drugs like this and that pain is to be taken seriously. And this was the sort of like evil genius of, of these companies, you know, um, uh, companies like Purdue and, and, and, and others that, um, were, were, you know, teaching, quote unquote, teaching or educating doctors that you're ignoring patients' pain, that pain is real and that you have to trust and believe patients when

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  they come to you. And for a drug addict like me, and for a world-class liar like me, I was able to manipulate the shit out of that because I could go in, in a suit and tie and I could go in limping and drive, like my performance was fairly ornate.

• 1:01:49Rich Roll?

  Right. You're talking about like, uh, you, you would get out of the cabin, limp. Into the doctor's office and limp out just in case a nurse happened to see you or whatever.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:57Rich Roll?

  Like, maintain the ruse.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  I would limp down the street. I would start my, my performance a block or two away from the doctor's office in the event that someone that worked in that office may have been out, running out to grab a coffee or running an errand or something like that. I would, you know, I, I couldn't have them see me not in character. So it would start the second I climbed out of the subway or out of a taxi. And I would, I would limp down the street, but I wouldn't just limp down the street. I would, I would stop and like,

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  and like wince. I would lean against like a, um, you know, a, a, a fire hydrant or whatever it was, you know, and catch my breath. Like, I really committed to this performance. But, uh, but, but to go back to Dr. Drew, he, he said, you know, yeah, no, it's all these doctors, all the doctors, all the doctors, all the doctors. I actually

• 1:02:55Rich Roll?

  Pain management.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  The pain management doctors, right. That, and, and, and, and listen, it's, surely he knows far more about this than I do. I know, based on my experiences, what happened to me. And, and I actually believe that these doctors were genuinely interested and genuinely, uh, you know, and deeply in some instances, concerned about the symptoms that I was presenting. And, and I can't fault them for not being, for not calling bullshit on me, you know? Like, the performances were, were pretty Oscar-worthy for a time, you know? They really were. And so, um, but yeah, so we, so here I am, sitting and talking to, to Drew, and we just sort of,

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  we had this conversation and I just was surprised that, um, that it went that way.

• 1:03:53Rich Roll?

  Well, certainly, there is, you know, an awareness level in the C-suite of these pharmaceutical companies that, you know, look, they know they're selling an insane amount of these pills, these medications are going out. Like, the level of, you know, pain versus the prescription level, you know, to anybody who would kind of, you know, evaluate that spreadsheet would look out of whack, right? Like, clearly, people are abusing these drugs.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Well, not only that, but, but they, they quite successfully managed to, to convince doctors that if, you know, a kid, you know, some college baseball player breaks his arm, oh, this is good for that, too. Like, initially, these drugs were, were, were most frequently prescribed for, you know, end-of-life care, cancer patients in just, like, excruciating, agonizing pain, victims of, of, of accidents and things like that. And they, these, the people in these C-suites at these pharmaceutical companies, I think, seized on an opportunity

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  to, to say, okay, hey, listen, there's, like, we're under, like, there's, there's, there's more market here for us, you know, because there are lots of people that are having teeth pulled and breaking bones and, and injuring themselves by doing cartwheels and, and things like that, that, that we are, that we should be tapping into.

• 1:05:25Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. What's, what's interesting about your case is that you would think that somebody of your kind of privilege and stature, you hear these stories, I don't know whether they're apocryphal or not, of, you know, people who are, you know, have that kind of level of access, have their, you know, their, their, their special doctor who's, you know, ethically compromised, who's just more than willing to, you know, write all kinds of crazy scripts for, you know, cash under the table. But you're playing the shell game with, you know, these doctors. Doctors that are, you know, not those people, right? Like, you're just trying to get these scripts written.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:06:05Rich Roll?

  Above board.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  I am.

• 1:06:07Rich Roll?

  As much as possible.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Because that was, that was the, at least initially, that's, that's what I was doing. But, but I, I was always, I always felt like a pretender. I was always pretending. And the magic, the idea of like, creating an illusion, the idea of deception is, is something that I can now, all these years later, look back and say, oh, like, my love and interest in magic and card tricks and coin tricks and all those magic books that I poured over and all those, you know, videotapes that I bought and like, basically wore out the VCR, playing and watching, learning and, and studying magic, really.

• 1:06:44Rich Roll?

  This is your ultimate opportunity to deploy all of that.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  This was the grand illusion.

• 1:06:49Rich Roll?

  Master charade.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  You know, it really was. And, and, and, and I, and I owned it, you know, and, and, um, and, and worked to perfect it, you know? I would go into these pain management specialists' offices and I would, would walk into the waiting room and I would see the pain patients, the real pain patients, sitting there, people like, with just, you know, no color in their faces, people that, that, you know, took all the energy that they probably could muster just to like, get from home to the doctor's office to, you know? And I would, I would look at their expressions or the way they walked or the way that they

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  would like, lower themselves into the chair in the waiting room and, and I would sponge off of that. I would, would make my shtick better.

• 1:07:42Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Um, from, from watching the, these people, you know?

• 1:07:47Rich Roll?

  Right, like a method acting approach.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Totally, totally.

• 1:07:49Rich Roll?

  My favorite of all your ruses is, was when you would create these elaborate overseas itineraries, like, I'm gonna be in Australia for 30 days and you would reserve airline tickets and print out, you'd have your, your assistant print out.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  I would, I would.

• 1:08:04Rich Roll?

  I would bring these in.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  I would show up at the pharmacist with my passport in hand. Uh, yeah, so I would, you know, what, I was running out, I was running out of pills and I was running out of doctors to get pills from.

• 1:08:16Rich Roll?

  When you're taking 60 a day, you're, you're always running out.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  You're right, you're right. And so it, it was, it was a constant. Search for pills. It's all I, all I cared about. And so I would, I would start going back to doctors that had prescribed me, you know, 300 pills two, two weeks ago. I would go back to them after two weeks when they wrote me a prescription for a month and I would start having to get creative in that respect also. You can't go into these doctors and say, I lost my pills. Yeah. That's just like that. They weren't gonna swallow, but I would go in and I would use my

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  job at Details Magazine to sort of help, you know, legitimize this. And I would say, hey, like, oh, it's the worst possible timing, but I'm going off on like a world tour to like, and I would make up just ridiculous shit. Oh, I'm going to a textile mill in Italy to see how, you know, cashmere is made. And then right from there, I'm going to this like leather moccasin factory to see how they're hand sewn. And then I'm going over to Australia to do this. And, and here I've brought the itinerary, you know, and I would have in anticipation of this

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  meeting, my assistant at the magazine make up a travel itinerary. And I would just say, hey, can you put together a travel itinerary? Start me in Milan, then take me to like Sicily, and then from Sicily to Rome, and then from Rome to Sydney. And, and my assistant would look at me like, what on earth? Like, oh, you know, I just, I'm just curious, you know, you know, I doubt I'm gonna do this trip, but just go ahead and, and call the travel agent and put together the itinerary and let's price it out. And then she would print out an itinerary for me and I'd be like, oh, okay. Yeah, let's not go ahead and book it. But I would have this, this

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  sheet in my hand and I would go see the doctors one after the next. It would be like the same thing, like. Listen, my back's been killing me, so it's the worst possible timing, but I just need to do this. Maybe I should even probably just quit my job because, you know, it's, it's, it's sort of untenable. And, and I, I'm thinking about, and I would just go into this, like, I would go off on this, like, improv routine. And, and like limping and clutching and wincing and, and, and, and groaning in pain. Where I felt no pain, by the way, you know?

• 1:10:57Rich Roll?

  And there's no physical outward indicia that you're loaded? Like, are your pupils pinned? Are you clammy?

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  No, no, because, um, or at least not that I was, was aware of. And nothing's, there were, there were no obvious tells. Um, and, and I wouldn't go into these doctor's offices loaded up a- and high. You know, I, I was able to sort of be, I would try to be anyway, smart about the timing of what I refer to in the book as my feedings. Taking pills were my feedings, and I was feeding this beast of this addiction. And so I would time my feedings around, you know, what I deemed to be important meetings, not just meetings with doctors, but meetings with my boss, or even a phone call with my mom, or whatever the case was, you know?

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Because more and more, people were starting to look at me a little strangely and starting to ask, hey, like, what's wrong with you? You know?

• 1:11:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:11:55Speaker 01

  Like, that was like a refrain for me from these years, like, hey, what's wrong with you? We're like, that's not normal. You know, like, those two things. Hearing the word "normal" like, is still like a trigger for me, you know? Uh, because I wasn't normal, you know? Um, and, uh, but yeah, I would go, I would go to great lengths to convince these doctors that, that I was like legitimately in need of, of a, of a new prescription.

• 1:12:17Rich Roll?

  And just keeping track of when you talked to that doctor the last time? And, you know, how much time it'll last? Like, keeping all your stories straight?

• 1:12:25Speaker 01

  That was actually quite simple, but like, thanks, like, thanks to-

• 1:12:28Rich Roll?

  Like a spreadsheet or something?

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  No, the pill bottles had labels with dates on them. And I could say, oh, okay, I got this filled, that, which means I saw the doctor that same day. Cause I, I didn't sit on prescriptions, you know, I would get them filled immediately. And I could, and I would start to, you know, I would use those as like my roadmap, basically.

• 1:12:47Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Until the, then you have this, um, the pink, the, the pink, uh, you know, bathrobe thing, situation.

• 1:12:56Speaker 01

  I like there would I would the the the visits to the doctor's office just weren't enough. They really weren't when this when this um and let me say also that like uh I I can sort of talk about this now with some measure of excitement or even like humor, you know, but um this is this is a dark and awful place to be. I mean, it really is and and um and and anyone that that has struggled with or is is actively um you know uh dealing with this addiction or has someone in their life that is actively dealing with this addiction. And let's be honest, like

• 1:13:40Rich Roll?

  A lot of people.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  That's a lot of people, right? This touches a lot of people. You don't have to go too far, you know, uh in your kind of world in your own orbit to find someone that is dealing with this in some way. Um but uh but um but and then, you know, as I wrote this book, I had a little bit of distance from it. I was able to look back on some of these experiences and and and find also some some some moments of levity there.

• 1:14:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Uh the moment of the of this pink gown was a really interesting time because I I would run out of doctors that I could call because you start to know who's gonna give them up and who's not, you know, and um

• 1:14:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I got I got one more with this guy.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:14:25Rich Roll?

  He's gonna be done with me.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  Totally. Like, I can probably, right, I'm gonna try this guy, but they're probably not gonna give me an appointment or right, or they'll they'll take care of me one more time and then I'm like dead to them, you know, and you know, because they would say, okay, I'll give you these pills, but you know, I really think you need to start uh physical therapy or I want to start doing certain like nerve block injections. Like, I didn't want any of that shit. I just wanted the pills. So I needed to start to find different ways to get them. And sometimes when I was really bad, because let's, let's just take a second and talk about what happens when you stop taking the pills. Yeah. So when you run out, it is absolutely brutal is the perfect word. It's just, it's brutal, you know, it's hell on earth.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  And, and the, the acute physical symptoms of opiate withdrawal are such that you, your body, you know, because your body needs them, your body is craving them. Um, your brain, it has, has, has, uh, gotten accustomed to having this chemical, uh, there and, and, and, um, and your body just absolutely starts to demand them when you run out of them. And so, uh, and it lets you know that it's not happy. Loud and clear. Like, yeah, like in an unmistakable way. And so you start to feel

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  run down, you start to have hot flashes, you start sweating and then all of a sudden you're freezing. Um, you can get headaches, there's nausea and diarrhea and. Your brain doesn't work either. You can't basically, you know, create a cohesive thought. You can't, and it's just absolutely miserable. And any depiction of opiate withdrawal, which includes heroin, that you've seen in, in a movie is, is, is very accurate. Mm hmm. You know, um, it's, you're, you're, you're shivering, you're shaking, you're miserable, your whole body aches, you can't think, you can't focus. And, and it doesn't just come and go, it sticks with you. Mm hmm.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  And so I would run out of pills all the time and I would go through withdrawal all the time. And I would go to the emergency room that, uh, that was near where I lived in New York City at the time, St. Vincent's. It's no longer there. It's now like ridiculously priced condos. But I would go to the emergency room and, and I would walk in and, and, uh, so the, like, first time I went, I had been at an event that evening, a gala where I was wearing a tuxedo and, and the symptoms of withdrawal were kicking in while I was at this gala. And I eventually left and went home. peeled off my tuxedo and just basically got into bed and and like waited for this to

• 1:17:11Speaker 01

  happen, which was just awful. The the the anxiety, the the fear of it coming was was equally as powerful as the actual withdrawal, you know, symptoms itself, you know, just this sort of buildup of anxiety and terror, you know. Right. I mean, I describe it in the book as as like a scene from a horror movie where like you're hiding in like this sort of killer is like you know, the killer's in the room, right? And you're under the bed or you're in the closet and you see feet walk by or like a shadow or silhouette of something and you just know it's about to to come and it does, you know, and like the you get yanked out from underneath the bed or the closet

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  door flies open and like you're toast. And that's what that's what I felt this like deep panic of like, oh, my God, it's coming, it's coming, it's going to be unrelenting. Um, it is, it's just awful. So, um, this night of this gala, I was like, you know, screw this, I'm gonna go to the emergency room. And I actually, at like two or three in the morning, put the tuxedo back on and went into an emergency room. Haha. Because I I I felt that I wouldn't, I wouldn't present as just like a junkie, you know, looking like truly like itching, like quite literally, for a fix if I had

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  this tuxedo on, you know, and that like somehow, you know, uh, this would make my experience there, uh, easier. And walk into the emergency room and the triage nurse is just sort of like, they've seen it all, you know, like the New York City emergency room at like three in the morning. Um, and but I I managed to kind of get in and I I was in this sort of part of the emergency room and

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  They had given me this blue gown, this blue paper gown to put on and I put my tuxedo in a, in a bag that they had given me to hold my stuff and I'm sitting across from this woman, pretty much the same distance that I am from you now, so just a few feet. And, um, and she was in a pink paper gown to my blue paper gown and we were in an incredibly well-lit room and, uh, she was, um, there was a stack, she was next to the counter that had a sink and a stack of, uh, individually wrapped alcohol wipes and probably some cotton balls and tongue depressors and like that knee hammer. And she was staring at me and she was naked under her gown and I know this because she was sort of exposing herself

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  to me. And she was taking, uh, one at a time, these alcohol wipes, she would tear them open, take one out, wipe it all over her face, drop it to the floor, take another one, while keeping eye contact with me. Uh huh. It was fascinating. And, uh, I eventually get led out of that room and in to see a doctor. And part of my whole shtick when I was talking to doctors was to appear as normal as possible. And part of my whole shtick in life, as we talked about with me getting dropped into the world of journalism, of fashion journalism, was, was engaging with people immediately, you know? And so, so I would engage this doctor, I did in this instance in the emergency room, talking to this doctor, it's the middle of the night,

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  he's gotta be exhausted. And I'm like, wow, it's a, you know, it's like the Star Wars cantina out there in the waiting room. You and I, we're fine. Yeah, like, like, thankfully I can connect with like a normal person because, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty weird out there, man. And, uh, and I'm talking to him and I start telling him about this, this, uh, this woman that I was sitting across from who was exposing herself to me and, and wiping these, these alcohol, you know, swabs all over her face. And he said to me, really without even kind of looking up, you know, like what color gown was she wearing? Was it pink? And I was like, like, how do you know that? And he's like, well, we give the people that we have psychiatric concerns

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  about pink gowns so that everyone knows that when they see someone in a pink gown, keep your eye on them and make sure that they aren't a risk to themselves or other patients or don't like just sort of behave in a way that would generally be, be, be, you know, described as crazy. And I was like, oh, wow, that's interesting. I get a prescription from this guy. Yeah, um, I go about my business. Not four or five months later, I'm back in the emergency room. I'm not wearing a tuxedo this time. And the symptoms of withdrawal are particularly powerful. And I had taken

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  some other things to try to help tamp them down, Valium and things like that. And it was the middle of the night and I was, um, found my way to the, to the hospital. I just was desperate. I just couldn't go through withdrawal, you know, yet again. And, and I go up to the window, the triage nurse, and I explain, you know, tried to sort of stay true to my script, you know, but must have delivered a subpar performance, you know, because she was like, it's going to be a few minutes. And, and I eventually get led into, to a room and, and there's like an intake nurse taking my blood pressure and

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  things like that. And I'm starting to, I'm sweating and I think my voice was probably quivering, but I'm still trying to stick true to, stay to my sort of spiel. And I'm like, how long will this be? Cause I, you know, have early meetings tomorrow. I don't know if I've mentioned this, but I'm the, I'm the editor in chief of Details Magazine. That's a major national magazine, by the way. And I, I have lots of important things in front of me. And this is just like a burden for me. And she's like, you're going to be here definitely for a little while, you know, so why don't you go ahead and change out of your clothes and put this on. And she handed me a pink paper gown.

• 1:23:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  But here's the thing.

• 1:23:09Rich Roll?

  Did you bust a move out of there?

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  I sure did.

• 1:23:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  I got right out of there.

• 1:23:12Rich Roll?

  You're, yeah, you're one step away from getting locked up at that point.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  I got right out of there, you know. Um, I, my story has lots of moments like that, though. There were, there were, there were.

• 1:23:23Rich Roll?

  It is funny, but it is, you know, it's, it's sad and it's pathetic and it's, you know, it, it just speaks to the places that something like this will take you to.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  It does. It takes, it speaks to the depth, depths that this will take you. And, and for me, Uh, you know, I've been asked as I'm, as I'm sort of now out and about talking about my book. You're like, hey, man, like, what was your, what's your bottom? You know, and that's, that's a question that, that people in recovery will ask other people in recovery. And that's a question that people want to know, like, man, what was your breaking point? Like, what, what got you to sobriety? And it is most often a bottom of some kind, you know? I lost my job, I had a horrible car accident, nearly killed someone, did kill someone, like awful horrible things that, that happen when people, you know, abuse alcohol and, and drugs. I didn't have one bottom.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  I, I feel like I just had like a series of.

• 1:24:23Rich Roll?

  Progressively demoralizing situations.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:24:27Rich Roll?

  Stacked up.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  That just stacked, that stacked up, you know? And, and, um, and this was just, this was just one of them, you know? But, but I think my, my point is that I would wake up the next day after having like what should have been a moment of clarity, like, hey, man. Wow, like this, this is getting really bad, you know? And, and people are, are, are starting to be on to you here and, or you're like, you're gonna die, you know? And I would say that to myself all the time, like, I would, I would, I got to a point where I was at nighttime where like my biggest highs, I would take the most pills at night because I would.

• 1:25:09Rich Roll?

  The big, the big feeding.

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  The big feeding, exactly. I could, I could really just kind of zonk myself out, you know? And I would take, you know, 15 pills, let's say, and then be like, you know, I'm gonna add like a couple more on top of that just to like really numb myself out. But this might kill me, but I, I would take them anyway. And, and it's not that I wanted to die because I don't think I wanted to die. I was prepared to die though, for that high.

• 1:25:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  It was just something I was prepared to do. And, and, um, but I would wake up the next morning from these moments and I would start all over again, you know? I wasn't. And this is the thing, you know, and there are probably a lot of people in recovery that will be like, you know, yeah, like you're not, you're not ready until you're ready.

• 1:25:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  You know, and, and it's hard to, to-

• 1:26:01Rich Roll?

  And even when you think you're ready, you're prob- you may still not be ready. I mean, you have this story about you, you go through the full detox at your mom's, right? And then basically shortly thereafter, cop right away.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  I do, I do.

• 1:26:15Rich Roll?

  And not, not, not planning to, but that's just, that's the way it works.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Yes, that, for, for me, that was right. And it's a really powerful addiction, right? So I went down to my mom's house in Baltimore and, and what, what did it for me, ultimately, I, I was ready. I just couldn't stop. I absolutely couldn't stop, you know? I knew I needed to stop. I acknowledged that I was a drug addict. Um, I knew that I was gonna probably die if I didn't stop. I had been ODing. So I would, had stopped breathing a number of, number of times in the middle of the night. Um, there's a, I write about in the book of a girlfriend, like waking up literally with someone on, like a girlfriend on top of me, like basically banging on my chest, like freaking out because I wasn't breathing. Later, when I was married,

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  my wife would say, you know, in the morning, like, wow, you were like gasping for air in the middle of the night, you know, almost like you're holding your breath, like, you know, what's, what's going on, you know? And I'd be like, I don't know, maybe it's sleep apnea or, or something like that.

• 1:27:18Rich Roll?

  It's crazy how long you got away with it in your marriage.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  It, it's extraordinary how long I got away with it in my marriage. And, um, uh, and it's also, you know, if we're being really honest, you know, it's extraordinary what I put her through.

• 1:27:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  And, and, um, and I think-

• 1:27:35Rich Roll?

  Because you're never really present and there's no true intimacy as long as, you know, that exists between you.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  That's correct. There's like a wall in between us and there was just, there was something that was more important. There was something I loved more, you know, and that was, that was these drugs. And, and, and it's hard for me to say this now, like I, I feel it, like I feel like, you know, like emotions stirring up around this, you know, but that's just the truth. Like I was, I wasn't present for anyone or anything in my life other than this addiction. It's the only thing that I cared about and feeding it. And so, um-

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  The, the people that are around addicts, the people that are in the lives of addicts, certainly moms and dads and siblings, but also spouses and partners and colleagues, all of those things really are just victims of this addiction also. They suffer tremendously at the hands of this addiction also.

• 1:28:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, and, and the addict is blind to that until it's way too late.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely. The addict does not see it. Worse, the addict will try to turn it and gaslight and will try to.

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  Of course, because you've got to protect that above everything else.

• 1:28:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I would, I would try to make anyone that like would, would start to question my behavior, I would do everything in my power to make it seem like, to actually make it seem like, like you owe me an apology for suggesting that, like what's wrong with you or why are you being paranoid or whatever it is, you know?

• 1:29:12Rich Roll?

  And the great lie, of course, I mean, during the romance period, there's this sense that you're hyper productive and you're able to like, you know, perform at a higher level and like, this is what I need in order to do this crazy job that I have.

• 1:29:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:26Rich Roll?

  And it's only over time that you realize that that's all a lie.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  That's all bullshit. Right.

• 1:29:31Rich Roll?

  And there is a little bit of a narrative out there around your story in your book that you were this high functioning addict. And I, I guess, you know, I, I understand that, but like, yeah, it's not true, right?

• 1:29:41Speaker 01

  I don't believe that to be true. So let's clear that up.

• 1:29:43Rich Roll?

  You become this absentee editor. You're like working from home or you're coming up with reasons not to come into the office. Shit's going haywire. There's, you know, crises that are happening that are widely publicized about things that are happening at the magazine. And this, this, you know, sense that you become this very mercurial person, right? Who's prone to these outbursts and unpredictable and, and the like.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  But it was more of a, an air of mystery than anything else. But I think, I think that that's an amazing point. I'm really glad you brought that up. It's actually really sort of like. Astute point to make, like I wasn't high functioning. And I've been, and that is part of this sort of thing that's out there now about this book, that I was this high functioning addict. I wasn't. I was an addict hiding in plain sight. And there are a lot of addicts hiding in plain sight.

• 1:30:34Rich Roll?

  It's like, what was that story in the New York Times about the Silicon Valley executive? And the wife who didn't know and she found him dead. Like, I think they were divorced, but then she found him dead in his place and all the vials everywhere.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I know her and Eileen, and she's, she's written a terrific, terrific book. And about her experience.

• 1:30:54Rich Roll?

  Is Smash?

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  Smacked.

• 1:30:57Rich Roll?

  Smacked, right.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  And, or at least I'm pretty sure. And, and so, so, look, I wasn't high functioning. I may have appeared to be, and I didn't try to portray it that way in the book. In fact, I think I portray it quite honestly.

• 1:31:15Rich Roll?

  But I think just people in a perfunctory way, like, oh, he was able to hold this job for seven years or whatever, you know, while, you know, while under the influence.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  And I was, and so that, you're right, that leads people to then say, you must have been a high functioning addict. I wasn't. I was an absentee editor. I was plugged in, you know, when I needed to be and was there at the ideation stage of things, because that was always my strength, finding the story. What's the way in here? What's the best way for us to tell this story? Even high, I was able to do that, but I was not there in any meaningful way. And, and had it not been for an extraordinary team of editors and writers and everyone that's around helping to sort of produce a magazine, it just, it wouldn't have gotten published.

• 1:32:06Rich Roll?

  Right. The other narrative that's emerged from your book, which I imagine is probably comes as somewhat of a surprise to you, is that now it's become this referendum on corporate responsibility and, you know, what actually was going on at Conde Nast during this time.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Um, yes, and I don't care for that narrative too much. Um, I'm not paying that much attention to it. Um, but I know that it's there and um, I think, listen, people are, are entitled to have whatever reaction they want to, to the, to the book. I think what I'm learning is that there are certain media people that, that their reaction is, and then I want to circle back to getting sober at my moms, if, if we can.

• 1:32:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  Um, but there are people that are, are looking at it and being like, you know, where was the oversight? And where was the management of this person, meaning me? And how could they not know, meaning the corporation? Um, and, and oh my God, editors were traveling like that and flying first class and all of that and shame on him for, you know, someone else could have been doing this job. And I, I didn't write the book for media people.

• 1:33:20Rich Roll?

  No, you're writing, you're just telling your story.

• 1:33:22Speaker 01

  I'm telling my story.

• 1:33:23Rich Roll?

  Obviously it's, this is, this is like a surprising byproduct.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  It is, and it's an annoying one, but, but I, I'm, I'm working through it, but it's, it's, um, to me, uh, Details Magazine, Conde and Ast, the publishing company that, that put Details Magazine out, media in general, are really just characters in my book to help contextualize my story and, and, and my addition.

• 1:33:49Rich Roll?

  Most of whom you anonymize anyway.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Most of whom, exactly. I changed the names of just about, of, of, of as many people as I could possibly could, just to avoid dragging people into my mess.

• 1:33:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not, it's not intended to be an expose of anyone other than yourself.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. And so, um, but there are people that are sort of like, kind of taking it, taking me to task or the media or Conde and Ast to that. And, and so be it. I mean, it is what it is. Um, just with respect to oversight though, like I think the, the magazine was doing well. This was the thing, you know, and, and maybe this-

• 1:34:22Rich Roll?

  And if it's doing well, they're leaving you alone.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  They were leaving me alone.

• 1:34:25Rich Roll?

  It was a time of crazy expense accounts and you're like, you know, and it's living in a hotel, basically, right? And taking town cars everywhere and-

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, this was that world at the time and, and, um, and no one was paying attention if-

• 1:34:40Rich Roll?

  It was going well.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  You were hitting your goals and or exceeding them even and we were doing really nicely and so no one was gonna sort of jump in and be like, hey, what's going on here? There was no reason to, you know, and I had a ton of autonomy and that's that, you know, and incidentally, it's sort of, I wouldn't blame or hold anyone accountable for lack of oversight anyway, you know, like I was making choices and then obviously became a full-blown addict, you know. When I ultimately got sober, so this all goes, circles back to my then-wife, who was pregnant,

• 1:35:25Speaker 01

  you know, at the time with our oldest son, and she ultimately did discover that I was doing, taking all of these pills and I think did an incredibly brave thing, which I'm grateful for every day, which was like, hey, like, I love you, but you need to get out of this house and you need to deal with this, but you can't do it here. I'm six months pregnant, I can't have it around me and I am really grateful for that and I respect that and I think it was a really smart thing for her to do.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  And I went down to my mom's house and got sober, spent two weeks down there and, you know.

• 1:36:15Rich Roll?

  I'm home, mom.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, here I am. You know, there's nothing quite like being a, you know, like a 35-year-old man or person and going back to your mom's house and basically just sort of like crumbling to pieces, you know, which is precisely what happened. And I got sober, I was down there for two weeks. I attended my first 12-step meeting, I, you know, I called the doctors, someone in my life, that I, in my childhood, that I grew up with, who was sober, said, hey, you need to tell on yourself, you need to call these doctors. And like, I was like, yes, you know, like I was in it, I was like, this is the new me.

• 1:36:55Rich Roll?

  Cut off the source.

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  And now I'm gonna cut it off of the source, you know, and I started called, you know, I was probably seeing three or four doctors at the time and I called all of them except for one. So

• 1:37:06Rich Roll?

  A stash.

• 1:37:07Speaker 01

  Even in that moment of feeling amazing about where I, you know, where I was, how I was starting to feel, being like, oh, wow, like, I'm, I'm through the physical stuff, you know, I, I held back and had to reengage with my life in New York. I had a big job that I was away from for two weeks. I had a, a pregnant wife that I needed to figure out like a path forward with and, and after all this sort of crap that I had put her through. And I was like, all right, I'm gonna go back to New York. I had been enrolled in a, in an outpatient recovery facility in New York City to go to like, you know, meetings, you know, probably

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  every day or four times a week. And on the way back, I'm on a train, I'll get on that Amtrak train and from, from Baltimore to New York and I call and I get a prescription and it's waiting for me at a pharmacy and I get off the train. I go right to the pills and, and I took them for, for a day.

• 1:38:15Rich Roll?

  Cunning, baffling and powerful.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  The most cunning, baffling and powerful. And it isn't such a powerful disease addiction is that it, that even while I was in Baltimore, I, I made this split second decision while I was calling these doctors to, to eliminate, to eliminate, to hold back.

• 1:38:37Rich Roll?

  Hold one back.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  To hold one back.

• 1:38:38Rich Roll?

  Have that out.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  That's how, that's how powerful it is. I'd gone through so much. I was out everything. My wife had kicked me out. My pregnant wife had kicked me out. All of this stuff. It didn't matter. You know, I, I like made the decision in, in a, like a blink of an eye to do that. And I went back to New York and I, I took pills for a day. And then I, I stopped.

• 1:39:00Rich Roll?

  And that was it.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  That was October 12th, 2007.

• 1:39:04Rich Roll?

  And your son was born shortly thereafter, right?

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  He was. He was born in January of 2008, just three short months from the time that I got sober.

• 1:39:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that that idea of like, what's your bottom? I mean, the the the demoralization of of filling that script and taking those pills after that commitment that you made to yourself. I mean, they always say like, you know, if you want to, if you want to like, really ruin your drinking and using, like, get a head full of AA and then use. And it's just like, you just, you you've never felt worse and and more ashamed of yourself when you do that.

• 1:39:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's the beauty of it.

• 1:39:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:38Speaker 01

  Right? Because it it hopefully gets you to come back. And and in in this case, for me, anyway, it did. But.

• 1:39:49Rich Roll?

  2007, sober ever since.

• 1:39:52Speaker 01

  Sober ever since.

• 1:39:53Rich Roll?

  13, 12, 13 years.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Uh, it's October, so in October of 20, it'll be 13 years. So I celebrated 12. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. It's it has

• 1:40:05Speaker 01

  has changed my my my life with the same, um, you know, same sort of force that that cartwheel did. You know, um, it it, uh, because I I live in gratitude now, you know, and I I'm really grateful to be here because I shouldn't be. And, um, you know, this this opiate addiction kills 130 people a day. There are 130 opiate-related overdose deaths every day. And and I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm a miracle and I know that. And, um,

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  I try to try to be grateful for it every day. I try to do a gratitude list, actually, every day. I am, I have this email chain that I'm on with about 10 other guys. And we just hit reply all and list the things that I'm grateful for, you know, and I'm super grateful for. For so many basic things that I used to take for granted, or I used to see "normal" people do all the time. Basic stuff, like take the trash out and open the mail and pay bills and shave. Things like that, you know? That I just never did, you know? I never made them a priority.

• 1:41:27Speaker 01

  They were burdensome things to do, these simple things, these small little things. And now, I'm sober 12-plus years, and I kid you not, I still, when I take the garbage out, when I open my mail, when I shave, which I do almost every day, I'm still incredibly grateful for the fact that I'm doing those things. And I, in my mind, celebrate them ever so briefly as small victories. They are wins for me, because I shouldn't be here to do any of these things. And shaving is one that is particularly meaningful to me.

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  Because I had gotten to a point as an active addict, where I didn't want to shave, because I couldn't stand to stand in front of a mirror and see myself, which you have to do in order to shave your face. And I just couldn't look at myself. I felt such shame, I was defeated. And so now, I shave every day, and I feel really good about it.

• 1:42:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's beautiful, man.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  You know, it's true.

• 1:42:49Rich Roll?

  I think one of my favorite things about your story, and something that I relate to, is your embrace of the traditional path of 12-step, and how much you appreciate, you know, what the program has offered you and how it's changed your life, and how you've been able to maintain your involvement in the program at a very immersive, you know, highest priority level. And I suspect that if you were still editing Details Magazine, there would be articles in the magazine about, you know, ayahuasca, and, you know, new protocols and treatments for addiction, and everything we thought we knew about addiction is wrong. And, look, I'm somebody who...

• 1:43:33Rich Roll?

  Got sober in a treatment center and showed up at AA in Los Angeles and just basically went in full bore and it's still the most important thing in my life. And it's just interesting to, over the years, like I got sober in 98, like to see these trends kind of come and go and how people respond to what worked for me and are always kind of coming up with new and different ways. And it's like, all I know, man, is that AA works.

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:09Rich Roll?

  It's been a miracle in my life. The arc of my life is absurd and I am privileged to be able to sit across with and participate in a community of people where I see broken people come in and they are welcomed and embraced and loved and cared for in the most selfless way. And I've seen lives change in the most dramatic ways possible. And like, that's my experience. I don't know what else to tell you, man. You know what I mean?

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  And again, you can only share your experience, right? I can't say, hey, this is the right way to do it and this is the wrong way to do it. Because I actually don't believe that there is a right way and a wrong way.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I don't have an opinion. I have friends that have gotten sober in different ways too.

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  So do I. And that's awesome. That's amazing. There are lots of different paths to recovery. All I can say is that for me, the 12-step program and specifically AA is what does it for me. And making meetings a priority in my life is incredibly important to me because, and I do it still to this day, I try to get to two or three meetings a week if I can and sometimes more if I have the ability to do more. It's incredibly, incredibly important for me because I like the way that I

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  Approach my life now, and I am far from perfect. God knows I'm far from perfect, but I am present. I try to stay healthy. I try to be accountable for my shit, for my actions, for my behavior. These are things that I was a blamer, you know? I would point the finger at anyone and everyone. Now I, I, I take stock in what I've done to contribute to kind of where I am or, or some situation or argument or whatever the case may be. And, uh, for me, that's been with the help and support of the 12-step program and the fellowship of, of men and women who are in the 12-step program.

• 1:46:15Speaker 01

  And so, um, like I said, there's no one path, but this has been my path. And it's, it's been pretty stellar, you know? It really has.

• 1:46:26Rich Roll?

  How do you think about the tradition of anonymity? Now being somebody who's written a book about this and is somebody who, you know, is of the media?

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  I have, my thoughts on this are actually sort of evolving as we speak. I believe in anonymity. I think, I think it's a very individual. Uh, I think it's a, it's a big decision if you choose to break your anonymity and, and, and speak openly about your, your recovery. Uh, I think that, um, we, we live in a culture that, um,

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  I, I think the stigma is real and, and, and I think it's important for me to say that. And I'm hoping, as are others who, who speak publicly about their addiction and alcoholism, uh, to de-stigmatize this. And we, we know that this isn't a moral failure. This is, this is a condition. This is part of the human condition. This isn't, this is a disease. Um, and I think it's, it's been categorized as such, you know, by the American Medical Association. This is, this is a real thing. This isn't a lack of willpower. This isn't someone that just can't get it together, man. Come on, like, it isn't though. It's not that. Um, and so lots of people have come, come out and, and disclosed, um, that they're addicts or alcoholics.

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  And, and, and I think. And I'm happy to have done it and I'm happy to have written this book and share my story in an effort to show people that either are struggling with this or it's touching their lives in some way, that there is hope. Because I truly believe, and we hear a lot of people say this, if I can do it, meaning find sobriety, anyone can.

• 1:48:15Speaker 01

  That said, I think the stigma is real. And I think that there are people out there that are like, will publicly be like, oh, man, awesome, you wrote this book, that's super brave. And I know this is going to help a lot of people, you know. But, but I think privately are judging. I really do believe that, not everyone, of course, you know. But I just, I think that this is going to be a tough nut to crack, you know, I really do. And again, I'm, I'm sharing my story to help crack that nut, if you will, you know. But, but I think, I think in 2020, like, the stigma is, is real, you know.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  And, and I encourage people to, to ask for help, you know. And if you, I was terrified to ask for help. I didn't want to lose this plum job that I had, which, by the way, I kept for an additional eight years after I got sober.

• 1:49:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:49:14Speaker 01

  But I was terrified I was going to lose that. I didn't want to, to lose my marriage, you know, and I ultimately ended up getting divorced. But in that, in that moment, I was about to be a dad, I didn't want to lose that. And I didn't want people to judge me. I didn't want people to go, oh, my God, he's an addict. And, and I think that there's, there's a lot of that. So I'm sharing my story to, and as have others, of course, to, to work toward de-stigmatizing this, this addiction.

• 1:49:44Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. What is your sense of, of, of what can be done about the opioid crisis? I mean, it's dark.

• 1:49:53Speaker 01

  It is dark and it is devastating communities, whole communities in this country. And it's really sweeping across our country in, in, um, in an incredibly powerful way. Uh, I think we need to talk about it and I think we have to be careful also, right? We're in an election cycle, so we hear it come up at debates and we hear, yes, we're going to fight this opioid epidemic. And yes, we're going to crush it and, and we're hard at work on it. And, and, and, and that to some degree may be true. And I think it's nice that it's being mentioned. I think it's important that it's being mentioned, but I think in order to really, um, see an impact, to make an impact here,

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  we have to do a number of things. I think we need to focus on prevention. I think we need to focus on education. I think we need to focus on treatment. I think we need to, I, you know, as you pointed out, you know, had the luxury and the privilege. I had have had a privileged life and I know that and I don't make excuses for that. Um, uh, and I, but I, I understand that I'm really aware of that. And I'm, I'm aware of the fact that even getting sober, I had a family and mom and, and, and a family and mom and a dad and a brother and a stepfather and, and all these people that opened their arms and brought me home.

• 1:51:14Rich Roll?

  Including David Copperfield, which we didn't talk about.

• 1:51:17Speaker 01

  Including the magician, David Copperfield, who.

• 1:51:20Rich Roll?

  That's, that's a high privilege. Yeah. David Copperfield, come and stay at my place.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  Factors heavily into my story. Um, I had that, I had the ability to go to an outpatient program. Um, so, so with respect to treatment, you know, I really believe that it can't be easier to get the drug than it is to get the treatment. And in, and in huge portions of this country, that's precisely the case. It's just so much easier to find more drugs than it is to find treatment. And so there need to be strong treatment options across this country, even if it's peer-based treatment, you know, 12-step, whatever the case may be, where people can, can go to get help. And don't have to spend and don't have to do anything. I had the luxury of being able to do that. There are people that go off to incredibly expensive rehabs and they can afford to do

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  that or have insurance that covers that. And that's wonderful. And I encourage you to do that if you have the resources to do that. But, but, you know, creating treatment options that are available to everyone that is impacted by this in this country. Because this opioid epidemic is impacting everyone. It doesn't discriminate, right? It's the great equalizer, man. I was a New York City media executive, grossly overpaid. I had a great life. That didn't matter. It's impacting absolutely everyone. And there are those that that need treatment options that don't get them. So I think that's really important. And I think, you know, federal appropriations need to sort

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  of be earmarked for that. And they need to be long term, not like, yeah, we're gonna throw a couple of years worth of funding here and see where things go. And we're gonna, you know, I think this is, this is real. And it is incredibly, incredibly hard to stop.

• 1:53:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think one of the things Dr. Drew said in your conversation was, we need to make treatment as available as the drugs themselves, right? Like, it needs to be freely available and accessible. I mean, out here in Malibu, I think Malibu has the highest percentage of like halfway houses and rehabs of anywhere in the country. But so many of them are real estate plays. Like, they get these fancy houses, and they know that they can rent these rooms out at an insane price. And it just becomes these profit centers that really aren't rooted in, you know, the proper motivation to help people and help people that can't afford this kind of thing.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Or on top of that, are at times staffed by people that aren't as qualified as they need to be to offer that help.

• 1:53:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, 100%. What is your daily kind of, you talked about your gratitude list and, and, you know, going to a couple of meetings a week. But like, what is the daily practice for you?

• 1:54:05Speaker 01

  So the daily practice for me starts with gratitude. Like I said, I think, you know, I am grateful for every day that I have, because I really don't think that I should still be here.

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  And so I take a minute and take stock of that, you know, and or at least try to every day.

• 1:54:26Speaker 01

  I'm working toward, I almost just told you a lie. Um, I was like, I meditate every day. Um, like, no, I don't.

• 1:54:34Rich Roll?

  But just right there, like that instance of you almost saying something and catching yourself, like that's sobriety.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, calling myself out on my own bullshit, right? To thine own self be true. Like, it starts with, it absolutely must start with being honest with yourself. Right? And, and, and that's, that to me is, is everything, you know? Like, am I being a good human today? You know, like, am I, um, engaging in meaningful ways with people? And am I apologizing if I owe someone an apology? Am I judging someone when I shouldn't be judging them? Because Jesus, the Lord knows, like, who am I to judge, right? Um, so it's just sort of like keeping myself in check. So, so, right, I don't meditate every day. I don't come close to meditating every day. But I am trying to bring meditation into my life more and more

• 1:55:27Speaker 01

  because it is like a game changer when, when, when I'm able to do it. You know, so gratitude, meditation. I, I try to take some time, um, to, to have like a strong spiritual connection and, and just sort of acknowledge, uh, that like I'm here for, for a reason. Uh, I try to be super present now. I was never present. I lived a life of not showing up in any way emotionally, personally, physically. Um, I just was never there. And so I try to be present in, in every way that I possibly can today

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  and, and, um, show up for people when I say I'm going to show up for them. You know, addiction is, is lonely and terrifying at times. And, um, so I, I.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  If if I can be present for people, if I can be present for myself, and more than anything else, I'm present for my kids. Man, I'm a sober dad, right?

• 1:56:36Rich Roll?

  So you have three kids, right?

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  I have three sons, and they've only ever known me as a sober man, and that is like the greatest gift of sobriety for me. And I I I work I work to to earn that and deserve that every day. Being a dad is why I believe I was given a second. Excuse me, it's hard for me, I can't even get emotional, is why I believe I'm I I'm here. And so I try to be super, super present for them. Um, I try to eat healthy when I can, you know? I mean, I sort of like don't want to open that can of worms with you.

• 1:57:13Rich Roll?

  Your diet during the

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 1:57:15Rich Roll?

  heavy pill popping phase is insane.

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really out of control, and it was really unhealthy, and and could have killed me just as quickly as the addiction could have.

• 1:57:24Rich Roll?

  I was microwaving Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  And just chugging it right from the right from the container, you know? So, um, you know, I try to be I try to be healthy, man. And I try to stay small, you know? I try to to to to live, like, be really good with with with living like a good, small life, you know? Um, and, um, a friend of mine, Laura McCowen, has recently recently written a a memoir called We Are the Luckiest. And there's a chapter in there where she talks about uh, sitting down with someone else in recovery who'd been an old timer, you know? And she's new and fucking miserable and missing her old life. And she sits down at this restaurant with this person and says like,

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  how like, what's your life like today? And and and I mean, I'm completely bastardizing her beautiful this chapter in her book. But and this woman says, I have a nice little life. And at first Laura is like, who wants that, you know? I have a nice little life now and I'm, you know, so thank you for that Laura and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm good.

• 1:58:34Rich Roll?

  Beautiful.

• 1:58:36Rich Roll?

  In writing the book, who were like, you know, there's a whole genre of, you know, addiction yarns out there, like some good, some not so good, like I would imagine like Burrows.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  He, you know, well, I will say when I was writing the book, I stayed away from them. Because I didn't want to.

• 1:59:00Rich Roll?

  Be overly influenced.

• 1:59:01Speaker 01

  In any way be influenced by what I was reading. And so I purposely kept, kept away from them.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  That said, it, there are people that have written, I think, quite beautifully about, about addiction and about recovery. And, and certainly Augustine Burrows is one of those people. I think Augustine has done it also with great humor, which is, which I think is important. And, but there's, there's, there's so many great works out there. David Carr, I think, did it masterfully. And, and there are, there are others, Mary Carr. There, there are, there are many others.

• 1:59:43Rich Roll?

  And what was the motivation in writing this book now? I mean, you've been sober for a while at this point. Like, how did this come about?

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  I had heard of all of the vast riches that befall authors.

• 2:00:00Rich Roll?

  The ultimate get rich quick scheme.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  Exactly. I just, I felt like I had stories to share. If, for, for no other reason, I wanted to just put them down on paper to, to, to share with my kids one day. I started writing them and, and it turned into a book. I think. I think it's, I think it's really important for people to just know that there's a path out and I, and, and because when I was actively using, I would look at these books and I would hear stories. I, I remember really quite vividly being an active addict and like just being zonked out on pills and like sitting on my sofa with probably like a cigarette

• 2:00:47Speaker 01

  like burning down to my knuckles, you know, and, and, uh, you know, empty, you know, Ben and Jerry's containers, you know, around me. Like it wasn't pretty. Um, uh, and watching like on some entertainment TV show, Entertainment Tonight or something like that, like this celebrity, like going into rehab, you know, and I remember 30 days later, sitting on that sofa. I had moved, but it would look like I hadn't.

• 2:01:14Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:15Speaker 01

  And, and seeing the report so and so out of rehab and, you know, you know, openly, publicly addressing for the first time, you know, their, their new recovery and thinking, oh my God, like I could have done it in these 30 days.

• 2:01:31Rich Roll?

  That period of time where you hadn't moved.

• 2:01:33Speaker 01

  I could have, I could have done it and I would feel worse and worse about myself, you know, um, because I wanted to stop. I was ready. I really was desperate to stop. Um, so my point is I think people sharing their, their stories, um, helps. It didn't help get me off that couch. It didn't help me from, stop me from going to getting the, the next series of prescriptions, but the seed was planted.

• 2:01:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was a domino in, in, in that process.

• 2:02:00Speaker 01

  It was. So if my book can, can be that for someone, I think that that's important. I also think that it's important for people that don't know addiction, that, that haven't lived with it or been exposed to it through a family member or loved one, just to see a glimpse into what, what it looks like. And so that was part of the motivating factor also is like, hey, take a look at how awful this can get and try to understand that this is really all consuming and this book will give you a glimpse of that.

• 2:02:38Rich Roll?

  Well, with 130 people dying every single day from this very condition, none of us are more than one or two people away from somebody who is currently suffering from this. So the time is now for this conversation more than ever and the need for solutions begins with understanding and understanding means wrapping your head around the experience of what it is like to endure something like this. So I applaud you for writing the book and I think the best way to land this plane is to have you kind of speak to the addict who perhaps is listening right now, that person who might be on the couch with some Ben and Jerry's containers, listening to this but unsure about what that first step

• 2:03:23Rich Roll?

  looks like.

• 2:03:24Speaker 01

  I think that that first step looks like acknowledging that you are an addict and for me, I struggled with that for a long time and then I eventually acknowledged that I was an addict while I was still using and I used for a while longer after that. But to acknowledge, I mean, to really simplify it, to acknowledge a powerlessness over this addiction, there's nothing that you, it's not going to go away on its own and you need to step up and say, okay, I'm ready. You have to be ready and you have to step forward and say, I'm ready. I think that's the most important first step is to acknowledge it

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  and to reach out and ask for help. You don't have to do it publicly. You don't have to tweet about it or post about it, but you should reach out and ask for help because you cannot do it alone. It is incredibly difficult to do it alone and I I tried.

• 2:04:21Rich Roll?

  Everybody tries first.

• 2:04:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:22Rich Roll?

  They're gonna try it until they realize it's not gonna work.

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  It's not gonna work. So, so my advice to that person would be, okay, let's own this. Like, this is where you are. And, um, and let's ask for help because help is there. And, and, and I was, was welcomed into a community of people, uh, into the recovery community in ways that I never, ever thought would, would have been possible.

• 2:04:48Rich Roll?

  And just the pure realization that your situation is not unique, right? Like, there's this idea like that whatever you're enduring and suffering is, is, is something that no other human being could possibly understand.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  That's, that's a fact, right? That you're, you're there and you're, you are thinking to yourself, I understand that people get sober from this. I understand people have done it, but no one is as bad off as I am. And, and it, no one, like, you know, it, it hasn't gotten this bad with anyone else on the face of the earth. And so it's pointless for me to, to step forward and say, okay, I'm gonna go ahead and, and, and take some action here. And that's just absolute bullshit, right? Like, we are run-of-the-mill, garden variety, dime-a-dozen drug addicts, whether or not, you know, like, that's what's at the core of my book, quite frankly, is that there's

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  all this weird, crazy stuff. I had access to all of these people and, and, um, David Copperfield and, and-

• 2:05:48Rich Roll?

  Right. You're the ultimate, like, don't you know who I think I am? And this mashup of, of like, you know, and sort of an overinflated ego with massive insecurity.

• 2:05:58Speaker 01

  Absolutely. That's precisely what I was. Um, uh, but at its core, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a common drug addict. And, and it's an incredibly common story. And, um, and there, there is a path out, but no one else can put you on that path. You have to be willing to say, okay, I'm ready to sort of start my walk down this path. And no one can say it for you. I can't say it for you. Parents can't say it for you. Wives, children, husbands, it just, it's not gonna happen until you're ready to say- All right, let's do this.

• 2:06:35Rich Roll?

  Right. And so what about the person who's listening, who has that person in their life that's suffering and they feel powerless to help that person? I mean, I get tons of emails like this, like, I don't know what to do, my spouse, my boyfriend, my girl, whatever.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  I get a lot of those emails, yeah.

• 2:06:49Rich Roll?

  And it's like, you know, you, you kind of spoke to it already. It's, it's about willingness and willingness is something that you cannot compel in another individual. Short of their willingness, you're pretty limited in how you can, you know, show up for somebody in this situation.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  You are. It's, it's, it's, it's an awful position to be in to watch someone that you love and care about, um, you know, slowly kill themselves because that's precisely what's happening. Um, and worse, hear them deny it and get angry at you for suggesting it, you know? So, uh, I have a tremendous amount of, of love and respect for the people that are in the lives of addicts and, and stay in those lives and continue to be loving and supportive. And I, I, I admire that and I'm grateful, so grateful that there are people out there like that. I think it's incredibly important to, to make sure that you're not enabling an addict. You know, it can be really easy to do that.

• 2:07:50Speaker 01

  Uh, and I don't recommend doing that, but I also don't recommend shutting them out of your life. I think there's, there's, there's some in-between and that's where you should live. Be supportive, don't stop loving.

• 2:08:02Rich Roll?

  And take care of yourself in the meantime.

• 2:08:04Speaker 01

  And absolutely, you know, right, as you say, anytime you get on a plane, you know, make sure your, your oxygen mask is on first before you, you know, go to help others. Like, take care of yourself and, and that is incredibly important. Um, but, listen, um, you know, uh, call them out on their shit also, you know, um, forgive the language, but like, don't just see, see behavior that is telling and off and ignore it, you know? Call them on it. Don't do it in an aggressive way, but call them on it. Let them know that you're on to them. They're gonna deny it, they're gonna lie to you, but, you know, be loving and supportive, but don't let them get away with it.

• 2:08:46Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent. Um, we did it.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  We did it, man.

• 2:08:50Rich Roll?

  It's good.

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was great.

• 2:08:51Rich Roll?

  It was pretty good. How you feel?

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  I feel really good.

• 2:08:53Rich Roll?

  You feel all right?

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  I feel really good. I feel like-

• 2:08:55Rich Roll?

  You don't feel like you did when you sat next to Dr. Drew on that flight?

• 2:09:00Rich Roll?

  And he killed your high?

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  He was the ultimate buzzkill, Dr. Drew. I feel, I think the only thing that could like make this even one notch better would be like a little Rick Springfield to just take it.

• 2:09:12Rich Roll?

  Right, well, there's a guitar behind you if you want to play it and sing it. You're more than welcome to.

• 2:09:16Speaker 01

  Next time.

• 2:09:17Rich Roll?

  All right, man, thanks. So, uh, the book is called As Needed For Pain. As I said, I love a good addiction yarn and I'm not done with this book yet. I'm, I'm just cracking into it, but, um, it's quite a yarn. So congratulations on it. I think it's going to help a lot of people. Check it out, even if you just want to read about stories with rock stars in the back of limos or, you know, trying to cop heroin in MacArthur Park. And, I mean, there's a lot of banana shit in this book and it's super entertaining, but also really speaks to the heart of, of, you know, what this disease is and, and how to see your way through it. So, thank you for your service.

• 2:09:56Speaker 01

  Thanks a lot, man, I appreciate it.

• 2:09:57Rich Roll?

  All right, man. And if you want to connect with, uh, with Dan, what's the best way? Dan, @danparisny on Twitter?

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  So, right, so, uh, @danparisny.

• 2:10:07Rich Roll?

  Paris. I said it wrong.

• 2:10:08Speaker 01

  It's all right, man, it happens. It happens all the time.

• 2:10:10Rich Roll?

  Here's the other thing, like, you didn't read your audiobook.

• 2:10:12Speaker 01

  I know I didn't.

• 2:10:13Rich Roll?

  And the guy says Perez.

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  I know, and I'm like.

• 2:10:15Rich Roll?

  And I know it's Perez.

• 2:10:16Speaker 01

  I have such an issue with that, but it is what it is.

• 2:10:19Rich Roll?

  Why didn't you read your audiobook?

• 2:10:21Speaker 01

  You know, I, I, Harper Collins was like, we, we really want to have an actor do this. And I was like, okay.

• 2:10:26Rich Roll?

  They told me that too, and I was like, no way.

• 2:10:28Speaker 01

  And, and my editor was like, if you really want, but we recommend, and I was like, all right, whatever. And so I should have, um, but, uh, so it's, uh, it's Dan Peres. So at Instagram, it's, uh, Dan underscore Paris, P E R E S. And Twitter, it's at Dan Peres, also P E R E S, N Y. And, uh, yeah, that's where I am.

• 2:10:50Rich Roll?

  All right, cool, man. And Jeff, we missed you.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jeff, love you.

• 2:10:53Rich Roll?

  Next time, we'll do it, all three of us together. All right, peace.

• 2:11:00Rich Roll?

  I warned you, right? I told you it was powerful. What incredible story. I just want to thank Dan again for his courage, his strength, his hope, his willingness to share his incredible story of despair and salvation in service to those that still suffer. And if you find yourself stuck in some version of Dan's story in this cycle of addiction, please, please reach out for help. Do not try to do this alone. You can find an AA meeting in your area by going to aa.org. And you can also call the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services National Helpline 24/7 at 1-800-662-HELP. Meanwhile, pick up Dan's new book, As Needed For Pain. It's really a great read.

• 2:11:43Rich Roll?

  And visit the show notes on the episode page at richroll.com to learn more about everything Dan Paris and the subjects and topics that we discussed today. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe, rate, and comment on it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. Share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media. And you can support us on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. I want to thank everybody who helped put on the show today. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for creating the video version of the show and all the short clips that we spread around on social media. Jessica Miranda for graphics. Ali Rogers for portraits. Georgia Whaley for copywriting. DK for advertiser relationships.

• 2:12:28Rich Roll?

  And theme music by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Hari Mathis. Thanks, you guys. See you next time. Peace. Plants. Adosté.