Behind the Scenes Minis: Messy Bulwer-Lyttons

Rosina Bulwer-Lytton week generates discussion of her relationship with Edward, including many people who sided with him over the years despite allegations of abuse and infidelity. Tracy and Holly also discuss the couple’s daughter’s death. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Speaker 01

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• 1:27Speaker 01

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• 1:34Holly Frey?

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• 3:17Holly Frey?

  Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 3:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Hello and happy Friday. I'm Tracy V. Wilson.

• 3:31Holly Frey?

  And I'm Holly Frey.

• 3:32Tracy V. Wilson?

  We spent the whole week this week talking about Rosina Buller-Litten, and by extension, her husband, Edward Buller-Litten.

• 3:38Holly Frey?

  We sure did.

• 3:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Wow. Okay, number one, when I put Edward Buller-Litten on the shortlist, it's just based on "It Was a Dark and Stormy Night." I had no concept that he had also had like a huge political career in the UK, did not know about him being Secretary of State for the colonies, didn't know anything about that. Just like, literally was like, who's this guy that wrote "It Was a Dark and Stormy Night"? What is the story behind him? And then stumbling onto the fact that he had his wife committed, really to try to get her out of the way because she was in many forms continually screaming at him in public.

• 4:22Tracy V. Wilson?

  I was like, okay, whatever was going on with him, I think this is the more interesting thing to talk about and also upsetting.

• 4:31Tracy V. Wilson?

  One of the things that we didn't really talk about directly, but kind of alluded to was like, at the time, until he had her committed, generally speaking, a lot of people were on Edward's side. They were like, wow, your wife is not in her right mind.

• 4:52Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 4:53Tracy V. Wilson?

  I feel very sorry for you. And it wasn't until he had her committed that a lot of people were like, okay, that was not okay at all. What are you even doing? But even today, some of the writing about this, like, we know for sure that Edward was like, he had extramarital affairs. We know for sure that he kept her from seeing her children after they were separated. We know for sure that he had her committed. We also have her allegations about his physical abuse, some of which is backed up by other witness statements, some of which we have her word to go on either way. We have those allegations also.

• 5:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  And sometimes people make it sound like, well, she was shrill, though, as though that invalidates all of the many reasons that she had to be outraged about her husband.

• 5:49Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 5:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  And the fact that she was so legally powerless to do anything about any of it.

• 5:56Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 5:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Which I, I hated that part of a lot.

• 6:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  There was also, there were a number of things that I wanted to try to find scans of. Some of, there are a number of things that you can easily find scans of, that are books, that each of them wrote, the addition of his letters that was published after Rosina died, the biography that was written of her, the biography that his son wrote of him, like, all of these things are scans of. But there were some smaller pieces and pamphlets and stuff that I just wasn't able to find a scan of anywhere. And one of them was from 1858 and was called "Extraordinary Narrative of an Outrageous Violation of Liberty and Law in the Forcible Seizure and Incarceration of Lady Lytton Bulwer in the Gloomy Cell

• 6:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  of a Madhouse," followed by three exclamation points. I noted the title of that down. It was like, I wish I could find this, and I was not able to find it.

• 6:54Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 6:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  We also talked about how this was a time in which women were disproportionately institutionalized, sometimes for nothing having to do with their mental health, having more to do with people finding their behavior unacceptable, for whatever reason.

• 7:15Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 7:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  And in June of 1858, there was a piece that made reference to three very prominent people from this time, those being Edward Bulwer Lytton, Charles Dickens, and William Makepeace Thackeray. And at this point, Rosina Bulwer Lytton was like, writing all of these very angry novels. Dickens' marriage had kind of collapsed. Thackeray's wife had been institutionalized. Rosina Bulwer Lytton, after this, also put in an institution. I think this is also afterward in the timeline. I didn't take very good notes about this thing that I was gonna try to explain in our behind the scenes. Basically, the point was, two

• 7:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  of these women wound up institutionalized. And there's also some evidence that Dickens thought about institutionalizing his own wife as well.

• 8:11Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 8:12Tracy V. Wilson?

  It does seem like Thackeray's wife did actually have a mental illness happening. But yeah, it was, it was a pattern that was going on. We also made reference to the fact that Edward's name, which was already very long, got even longer when he re-appended the Litten to the end of it. And in the updated deed of separation, after he increased her allowance to 500 pounds, they just abbreviate the middle part. So consistently all the way through it, he is referred to as Sir Edward G E L B Litten. And I was like, yeah, that's a lot. That's too much. Too much to write out.

• 8:51Holly Frey?

  That's too many letters.

• 8:52Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 8:53Holly Frey?

  Yeah, this is such an interesting case to me because on the one hand, right, I will concede

• 9:01Holly Frey?

  that she was not, in the manner of her writing, always doing herself a lot of favors.

• 9:07Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 9:08Holly Frey?

  In terms of like, not leading people to think she might have lost touch a little bit with reality.

• 9:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 9:17Holly Frey?

  But then the thing that I kept coming back to in my head as I was looking this over initially is, yeah, but this dude bit her in the face so hard she bled down her clothes.

• 9:28Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 9:29Holly Frey?

  That would make a completely sane and solid person probably lose it.

• 9:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right. Yeah. Yeah.

• 9:37Holly Frey?

  Like, nobody questions that.

• 9:40Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Holly Frey?

  Was he crazy? He bit his wife in the face. Like,

• 9:44Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 9:45Holly Frey?

  Uh, in addition to the many other things, but that's, that's such a weird.

• 9:49Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 9:50Holly Frey?

  That is like a domestic violence situation that is not just aggressive. It is weird and feral behavior. And nobody was like, you know, I think he's,

• 10:02Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think maybe he has a problem.

• 10:04Holly Frey?

  Some sanity problems.

• 10:06Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 10:06Holly Frey?

  And even his, his letter about, you know, I've just determined I'm not fit to live with another person. It's so, it manages to make himself sort of the victim of the piece.

• 10:20Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 10:20Holly Frey?

  Poor me. I just was raised in a way that I can't be around other people. It's my nature, but also everything in my life has made me this way. And I'm just like,

• 10:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 10:30Holly Frey?

  Duh, get the time machine ready.

• 10:35Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, there are a couple of articles that I read when I was working on this that that did kind of a comparison of Rosina Bullwiddon's writing and Caroline Sheridan Norton's writing. So our episode on Caroline Norton is only a couple of years old and it's also a two parter. So I have not tried to line it up as a Saturday classic because we don't do two parters as Saturday classics that often. But we read at length some of the things that she wrote in that episode, that Caroline Norton wrote in that episode. And they are like such straightforward and assertive, but also calm and quote, reasonable appeals

• 11:17Tracy V. Wilson?

  for the, uh, the rights of women, explanation of the reality that women were living under at once they got married and basically lost all of their legal rights. There were also people thought that she was going way too far with the kind of things that she wrote about. But then by comparison, uh, Rosina Bullwiddon is just kind of screaming in some of her, in some of her pamphlets and some of her books. And it really does seem to me like the wealthier Edward became, the more prominent he became, the more angry, understandably, the more angry she became, partly because she was like seeing what they had been planning

• 11:58Tracy V. Wilson?

  for actually happening for him when she was not really in their marriage anymore. But then also seeing that he was doing things like he inherited a mansion, uh, and kept putting a lot of money into renovations on the mansion. And she's like, you're saying you can't afford to raise my allowance by a hundred pounds a year, but you are doing renovations on your mansion.

• 12:22Holly Frey?

  You're importing Carrara marble.

• 12:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  Are you kidding me? Um, and so it's like, like it makes absolute sense that she would feel like I am trapped and I am just gonna scream about it.

• 12:38Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 12:38Tracy V. Wilson?

  And that screaming about it, like.

• 12:42Tracy V. Wilson?

  When even the most reasonable thing is positioned as going too far, her screaming about it came off to people as like going way, way too far.

• 12:51Holly Frey?

  Right. It's telling though, right? That, that that all reverses very abruptly at the end.

• 12:57Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:58Holly Frey?

  Where after she is released, he's suddenly like, here's your money. Just everybody be cool.

• 13:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, we gotta walk this back a little bit.

• 13:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  I feel like we will still see this today sometimes in public. You know, when public figures go through like a really destructive relationship and breakup.

• 13:20Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  Sometimes it will like, there will be verified accounts of one person being abusive. And the other person being like, to use the gendered term like shrill, which has, that's a very loaded term.

• 13:38Holly Frey?

  I was just gonna say reactive.

• 13:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, reactive is a much better term, but a lot of times it's like, you know, if the person, if, if, if a woman in this situation is being really angry and reactive, like she will be branded as shrill. And people kind of saying, well, that invalidates everything that she's saying that's happening. It's like, no, no, it's not, it's not actually how it works. Not actually how it works at all.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness. I'm Shaquille O'Neal and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound trisepotide, the first and only FDA approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it. Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type two. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plant to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulphonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 15:38Speaker 05

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 15:41Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 16:01Speaker 05

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• 16:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  That includes field services manager Drexel Jones. His team made sure it all came together and held up on game day.

• 16:16Speaker 06

  Through what Alan's whole crew designed, we connected the event visitors to the world.

• 16:21Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 16:25Speaker 06

  To actually see the whole stadium light up and data is flowing is a beautiful thing.

• 16:29Speaker 05

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• 16:33Tracy V. Wilson?

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• 17:45Holly Frey?

  We've all done it. Tumble down an internet rabbit hole trying to self-diagnose. And sometimes doing our own research can leave us more anxious than informed. Your feed is packed with wellness trends telling you to cold plunge, protein max, detox, track your sleep. But what's actually real? What's exaggerated? What's just wrong? That's exactly what Health vs. Hype from the American Medical Association and iHeartMedia's Ruby Studio is here to find out. Each episode, Emmy-nominated science communicator Trace Dominguez, who's racked up billions of views across PBS, Discovery Channel, and YouTube, talks to doctors, influencers, and real people trying these trends.

• 18:28Holly Frey?

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• 18:54Holly Frey?

  Do we know why Emily was in a boarding house when she died?

• 18:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  I am not fully clear on that, because that seems messed up. Yeah, yeah. So, Rosina claimed that her, that her father was making her translate documents for him. It is not totally clear whether that's the case. It does seem like that when she came of age... As an adult, that he saw her as potentially, you know, able to take on the role, like the household role of a wife. And I'm not in any way saying in a sexual way, but like, the role that a wife would have.

• 19:35Holly Frey?

  Managing of the house, yeah.

• 19:36Tracy V. Wilson?

  Managing the house, that he would now have a source of unpaid labor in the term, in the form of his daughter. I am not clear on why she wound up at this boarding house, rather than living at Nebworth, Nebworth House, and possibly like taking on the unpaid role of managing that household, household. I don't know, but Rosina was sure mad about it.

• 19:59Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 20:00Tracy V. Wilson?

  And especially mad that he made it sound like that she had died at Neb, at Nebworth House, instead of in this boarding house, where she was, for some reason.

• 20:08Holly Frey?

  It made me think a lot, you know, that, that, that line that gets said a lot lately, every accusation is an admission?

• 20:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  Oh, sure, yeah, yeah.

• 20:17Holly Frey?

  In his constant assertion that Rosina, you know, actually preferred the dogs to the children, and she did not care about the children. I'm like, are you actually talking about yourself, dude?

• 20:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 20:30Holly Frey?

  Because, other than making your son into your duplicate, you don't seem to really care about these kids well.

• 20:37Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. It's also totally possible that there is a clearly documented reason for that somewhere. There was an enormous volume of material that was involved in, uh, working on this episode. And no possible way to really read 100% of it.

• 20:55Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 20:55Tracy V. Wilson?

  So, yeah, it's possible that some of these things that I'm confused about are documented somewhere. But even with, switching topics completely to take more time with this one later, like I still did, I didn't wind up with satisfying answers on all of the questions that I had, a lot of which were about things like that, the particulars of, okay, how did we get in this situation? What exactly happened with Rosina and her son after a few months touring Europe? Uh, that led them to resume non-contact, basically.

• 21:27Holly Frey?

  That also took me by surprise.

• 21:29Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Holly Frey?

  Because he seemed so much to be in his father's camp.

• 21:34Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 21:35Holly Frey?

  In terms of how he perceived his mother and her behavior.

• 21:39Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 21:39Holly Frey?

  I'm like, and yet you wanted to travel together, which.

• 21:45Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think some of this, from my read on it, was that Robert wanted to get his mother out of his father's way for a while.

• 21:54Holly Frey?

  Ah.

• 21:56Tracy V. Wilson?

  And I'm, there's probably more documentation of like the specifics of that trip somewhere, but it was, there was so much in this episode.

• 22:04Holly Frey?

  Right. I mean, I'm just like, I can barely manage to travel with, you know, more than two people at a time without going bananas. If I adore them both, just because.

• 22:15Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Holly Frey?

  Travel is inherently super fun, but also like logistically has stressors and.

• 22:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 22:21Holly Frey?

  And whatnot. And I'm like, why would anybody opt?

• 22:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Holly Frey?

  To go on a lengthy travel with somebody they have really been talking crap about for a while.

• 22:30Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 22:32Holly Frey?

  That doesn't sound fun.

• 22:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  It's also clear that both of the, both of the children, Robert and Emily, I don't, I could not really say that either of their parents ever had their best interests in mind.

• 22:46Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 22:46Tracy V. Wilson?

  With anything. They both seem to have been like really ready to use their children and their relationships with their children as ammunition against each other, which like they, I think the two of them probably came off the, or had, had the worst uh, out of all of this, just because of like each of their parents being so, so caught up in what was going on with the other one.

• 23:13Holly Frey?

  Right.

• 23:14Tracy V. Wilson?

  Uh, that they never got actual parenting. It would not have been that unusual for governesses and tutors and people like that to have been a big part of these kids upbringing. But like it, I think the bull were lit and dynamic went beyond that in terms of like how.

• 23:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  How the parents were interacting with their children or not.

• 23:36Holly Frey?

  Yeah, this also does put me in mind a bit of like, I think we have probably all lived through one of those scenarios where we know people who are perfectly lovely and then they go through a breakup and they become both really quite messy.

• 23:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 23:52Holly Frey?

  And even monstrous at times. And it's like, I, I know there's a reasonable person in there somewhere.

• 23:59Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 24:00Holly Frey?

  Um, but I also understand why you're at this breaking point.

• 24:04Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 24:05Holly Frey?

  Although this seems like it was pretty rough before that.

• 24:09Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:11Holly Frey?

  But Tracy, he couldn't help it. It was just his nature and everyone made him that way. I can't get over that.

• 24:18Tracy V. Wilson?

  Just not take accountability for anything.

• 24:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  So, yeah, yeah. I think that's probably all I have to say about the Bowler Lyttons. I, I am glad that women in the UK and the US to some extent also are no longer just like a, a legal entity completely subsumed in, by their husband.

• 24:49Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 24:50Tracy V. Wilson?

  We've had a number of episodes at this point about evolution in, in divorce law and marriage law and things like that. And so, uh, with kind of the recent rise in people saying that women should go back to having a traditional role. This is what the traditional role was for a long time.

• 25:10Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 25:10Tracy V. Wilson?

  In common law in Britain and the US. So let's not do that.

• 25:15Holly Frey?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Tracy V. Wilson?

  It's not.

• 25:17Holly Frey?

  I don't, I don't even know how that would, I mean, just like the concept of it.

• 25:21Tracy V. Wilson?

  Yeah.

• 25:22Holly Frey?

  Selfishly, I, I don't know how that would work.

• 25:26Tracy V. Wilson?

  Right.

• 25:26Holly Frey?

  I think I would end up being put in an asylum to get me out of the way.

• 25:33Tracy V. Wilson?

  I think both of us might do a lot of screaming and yeah. So anyway, whatever is happening on your weekend, boy, do I hope it's better than anything that we talked about in this week's episode.

• 25:48Holly Frey?

  Ooh, yes, please.

• 25:51Tracy V. Wilson?

  And you know, if you can take a little moment for yourself, I hope you get to do that. We will be back with a Saturday classic tomorrow and we will have something brand new on Monday.

• 26:08Tracy V. Wilson?

  Stuff You Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Snoring, gasping for air during sleep, daytime sleepiness. I'm Shaquille O'Neal and this shouldn't be anybody's experience. Ask your doctor about Zepbound trisepotide, the first and only FDA-approved prescription medicine for moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea in adults with obesity.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, OSA, and obesity to improve their OSA. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains trisepotide and should not be used with other trisepotide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't chew needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and

• 27:21Speaker 02

  call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 27:54Holly Frey?

  A rare disease diagnosis can change your life, but it doesn't have to define your future. In season seven of Untold Stories: Life with a Severe Autoimmune Condition, host Martine Hackett continues the conversation with people living with MG, CIDP, and the broader rare disease community, exploring what comes after diagnosis through stories of hope, progress, and connection. Produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Argenx. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:24Tracy V. Wilson?

  You ever show up late to the game and your friends already saved your seat, your drink, even a plate? That's looking out. That's having your back. And that's exactly what AT&T does with the AT&T Guarantee. They know staying connected matters, so they actually guarantee a network that comes through when it counts. AT&T has connectivity you can depend on, or they'll proactively make it right, just like that friend who takes care of things before you even ask. AT&T: Connecting Changes Everything. Terms and conditions apply. Visit att.com/guarantee for details.

• 29:00Speaker 07

  Livright, publishers of John U. Bacon's New York Times bestseller, The Gales of November, a chronicle of the S.S. Edmund Fitzgerald's 1975 shipwreck. "Never has it been told better than by Mr. Bacon in this colorful book," writes John J. Miller of The Wall Street Journal, while author Hampton Sides proclaims that it's destined to be a classic. The Gales of November, now in paperback.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.