#68 - It's Time To Build, Founder Dating, MBA As A Service

Sam (@thesamparr) and Shaan (@shaanvp) chilling on Zoom once again to talk about Marc Andreessen's new controverisal blog post titled "It's Time To Build" (3:54), On Deck - MBA As A Service (17:27), Founder Dating (27:35), Talking to Naval on ClubHouse (36:37), Oatley's Milk is bomb af (45:08), Fastgrants.org (51:31) and Shaan's Degenerate Crypto Trade (53:38) See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Shaan Puri?

  All right, we got a friend of the show here, Jordan Harbinger. He's one of the guys who's been advising us on how to build this podcast because his podcast is way more successful than ours, has been around, he's been doing podcasting for like 12 and a half years, which, Jordan, that's gotta be as long as podcasting has existed, right?

• 0:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think podcasts have been around for like 14 years and I've, or 15, and I've been around for 13 of those. So yeah, when I started, there was no way, there were no iPhones. So you couldn't get podcasts on your phone. You had to use an iPod to play them.

• 0:30Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, straight to cassette. That's how, that's how long this guy's been doing it. Um, so, so Jordan, uh, you know, I like, I like your show. I've been binging it while in quarantine because, you know, what else am I gonna do besides try to learn something new or improve myself in some way? And I gotta say, I like it because you do the, you know, the interview style show where you go deep with a guest. I think, uh, you know, you had, I was listening to the one with Tony Hawk, which was pretty awesome. And I gotta say, I like that you don't do the kind of surface level, you know, just, just, you know, pitty patting around with the questions or trying to do, you know, inspirational fluff where you're just saying, go, you can do this. Um, so with that episode with Tony Hawk, what was that like? Cause Tony Hawk's an icon. How was it, uh, you know, interviewing Tony Hawk?

• 1:10Speaker 01

  It was great. He's a really interesting guy, really open and fun. And he told some pretty funny stories. One, which was very apropos of what's, what's going on right now is one day he walked into his agent or some sort of marketing team that he'd hired. He walked into their office. This is like at the height of video games where he's making, I don't know, well, 50 million bucks off these skating games and these brands. And he goes in and he says, look, I got this backpack that was made pretty shoddily and it's got my name and face on it. I don't want any more stuff like that.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  And as the agent marketer, whatever, is sort of nodding his head in understanding, Tony goes, wait, what's that on your shelf? And it was a roll of toilet paper with Tony Hawk's name, face and logo on it. And he goes, what the hell is that? And the guy goes, oh yeah, anything we put your name and face on does so well. We were joking that we could put your face on toilet paper and we'd still be able to sell it. And he fired them on the spot because it was clear that they didn't value his brand, which I thought was a funny story. And he's got a ton of stuff like that, that he talked about on the show.

• 2:12Shaan Puri?

  That is epic. Uh, you know, I actually met Tony Hawk. Uh, we went on a trip to Africa, a charity trip together. And believe it or not, we were halfway up a, up a mountain in Ethiopia where, you know, it's a, like, this is a mountain village. And somebody saw him there and they were like Tony Hawk. You know, that's probably the only English word they said to us all day. They identified Tony Hawk on a mountain in Ethiopia. That's how famous that guy is. So that's an amazing guest to have on the show.

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Imagine being that famous that you get recognized in the middle of countries where like, nobody speaks your language and they maybe don't even have skateboards.

• 2:44Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, we were there trying to give people clean water. They didn't even have water, but they knew Tony Hawk. That's how, that's how famous that guy is.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 2:50Shaan Puri?

  Awesome. Well, if you want to hear more from Jordan, we're going to be having him on more and more. He's a friend of, friend of the house and you should listen to his show. It's one of the podcasts that I would recommend. If you like Tim Ferriss's stuff, if you like our stuff, you're going to like his stuff. And so go check out the Jordan Harbinger Show on iTunes, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, you'll find him there.

• 3:14Sam Parr?

  I think a lot of great companies are monarchs. It's either as a king or a queen and that person's the boss.

• 3:20Shaan Puri?

  What's up, good people? We are back. Sam, how you doing, man?

• 3:22Sam Parr?

  What's up?

• 3:23Shaan Puri?

  New mic, new outfit, new room.

• 3:26Sam Parr?

  New room. Somebody wrote in the comment section, they go, I would give this five stars, but Sam's mic sounds even worse than before. So until you fix it, I'm not going to give you five stars. So it worked.

• 3:39Shaan Puri?

  Nice. All right, you're motivated. Cool. We've got a bunch of interesting stuff to do today, to talk about today. I feel like today, you know, sometimes we come in and there's one bullet in the chamber and you're hoping that that's the one that fires out. I feel like we got six bullets in the chamber today, so I feel good.

• 3:54Sam Parr?

  And you want to start with this article you just made me read?

• 3:57Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. All right. I just made Sam read the Marc Andreessen, It's Time to Build blog post. Why? Because it was a bit polarizing. Some people were like, hell yeah, I'm inspired. This is, you know, call to arms for the tech industry, for entrepreneurs. And then some people were like, yo, he just said a big.

• 4:13Sam Parr?

  Dude, it's not, it's not for the, it's not for the tech industry. I can't stand this stuff. It's, there is no tech. The, I don't want to use the word tech industry anymore. There is no tech industry. Everything is the same.

• 4:24Shaan Puri?

  Everything is tech? Or you're saying there is no tech industry?

• 4:27Sam Parr?

  Well, what does tech, what does tech industry mean?

• 4:31Shaan Puri?

  Like the internet companies, technology companies.

• 4:33Sam Parr?

  Every company uses the internet. Every company uses technology. I hate when people say it's the tech. No, it's not. It's everyone. I mean, even the dumbest restaurant that's run by people who are 100 years old. They don't know anything about, quote, "technology," have a website.

• 4:48Shaan Puri?

  I like that you're coming in hot today. I like it. Alright, so that's true. Yeah, that's actually the most recent, probably the prior most famous blog post that Mark Andreessen put out was "Software's Eating the World," which is basically what you're saying, which is that, hey, yeah, it started where software was for software companies and for internet companies. But every company is going to use software. Every company is an internet company. I don't care what industry you're in. If you haven't already been, you know, transformed using software, it will happen. Software was eating the world. So this is the most famous blog post, I think, since that. What did you think? When you read this, were you A. inspired, B. annoyed, C. other?

• 5:26Sam Parr?

  You want to summarize the article for the readers first or listeners?

• 5:29Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, you just read it, so you do it.

• 5:30Sam Parr?

  Okay, so Mark Andreessen, big time investor, who's been quiet a lot lately, but he's pretty much the best of the best when it comes to venture capital. It's an article called "Time to Build," went pretty viral. I don't know when it was launched, three days or announced or released.

• 5:45Shaan Puri?

  A couple of days ago.

• 5:46Sam Parr?

  A few days ago, and it basically just says Corona might be some people's fault, might not be some people's fault. It doesn't really matter whose fault it is. But the fact is, is that we have to create stuff. We could have been prepared. We're not prepared, but we could have had, we could have built things. For example, right now, what is it called? The PPP, what's the loan?

• 6:08Shaan Puri?

  Oh, PPP.

• 6:10Sam Parr?

  PPP loan program. That's been a disaster. I've gone through it, so I could tell firsthand it's been a disaster. It's been quite hard to distribute that money. It's been quite hard to get vaccines. It's been quite hard to get therapies for Corona. And what he is saying is, yeah, it's because we've all gotten complacent and we haven't pushed, aggressively pushed forward to make new stuff. And it doesn't matter what it is. It could be skyscraper. It could be games. It doesn't matter what it is. But he's just saying, it's most, it seems like he's mostly saying America has become... Soft and not innovate quickly, has not innovated quickly.

• 6:42Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, he basically is like, it's a failure for us to take action. So he's like, you know, why, okay, yeah, why don't we have ventilators? Why don't we have enough ICU beds? Why don't we have the ability to pump out a vaccine faster? Okay, even simpler than that. Why don't we have enough cotton swabs? Why don't we have enough gowns and, you know, masks and eye shields? Why can't we get these faster? Like, you know, hospitals are asking for ponchos to be used because they're running out of medical gowns. Like ponchos, this is America, this is 2020, how is this possible? And then he goes on, he's like, all right, you know, we, we decided to give trillions of dollars to bail it out. We can't even give it out. We don't have the infrastructure to even give out the money. You know, why don't we have, you know, why are we sort of so complacent? And why are we so slow to action? Why didn't we take action before this? Why can't we take action post this?

• 7:26Shaan Puri?

  And he was sort of like, you know, you're losing your edge. So he gives an example. He's like, when HBO wants to produce Westworld, and they want to portray like, you know, the American city of the future with like, you know, modern everything, they don't go to Seattle, or LA, or New York, they go to Singapore. And, you know, that's where, that looks more like the future than America does. And so then he, yeah, education, he goes through manufacturing, infrastructure, and so he just goes through each thing, and his thing is like, you know, it's time to build. We need to be building and rebuilding all of these things. You know, universities need to be rebuilt, roads, cars, you know, we need to, we need to build. And that's sort of the call to arms.

• 8:04Sam Parr?

  I have a strong opinion about this. So, you know this, I'm a history buff. I love, I love reading about history. It's, it's my favorite thing to do. And my favorite era is right as post-Civil War, so like 1870s to about 1920. Are you familiar with that era?

• 8:22Shaan Puri?

  No.

• 8:23Sam Parr?

  Okay, so it's a really interesting era. The Civil War just happened, and imagine, I mean, more people died in the Civil War, maybe than any other war America's ever had. I mean, it was brutal. And afterwards, they're like, all right, let's get to work. Let's do some cool stuff. Everyone was like, almost stir crazy. And so they created a lot of amazing things. And this is where Vanderbilt came from. This is where John Rockefeller came from. This is where, Andrew Carnegie came from and the reason all these great businesses came to be is like I said, people were hungry, but also America wasn't number one. I mean, we were still growing. We were, we were trying to become the best at whatever we were trying to become. And also there wasn't a lot of regulation. And so this is why a lot of these guys who seem like they're so rich, I mean, John Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie compared to Jeff Bezos were significantly

• 9:06Sam Parr?

  richer. And it was because they're up until Rockefeller in the 1920s, anti monopoly, there was no such thing as monopoly laws. There was no stop, there's very little stock regulate, uh, stock market regulation. Um, you could do anything. And one of the reasons I think a lot got done is because A, you could do anything, which was pros and cons. And B, we, it was kind of like a crony capitalism, but also we weren't number one and we wanted to be number one. And that's why a lot of really interesting came, things came from. We were the underdog still. And in my opinion, China is kind of like America in about 1910, which is, uh, America had a lot, China isn't capitalism, they're not communism, but they're definitely, they're crony capitalism. And that's kind of what America was a little

• 9:50Sam Parr?

  bit in the 1910, 1900, 1910. And anyway, I think that what we need now is definitely far more like, we ain't shit, we're the underdog, we have to win, almost win at all costs type of mentality.

• 10:03Shaan Puri?

  And that's impossible, I think, for America to do. Um, like, you know, I think about it now. I went from doing startups for 10 years to now I work in a 2000 person company. And, uh, no matter the good intentions or even, you know, individuals who have rally cries like this, um, it is like impossible to change, you know, such a big ship.

• 10:23Sam Parr?

  No it's not.

• 10:23Shaan Puri?

  That's a 2000 person company. Imagine.

• 10:25Sam Parr?

  Watch, Sean, I'm gonna take away your apartment from you. You're now fired.

• 10:29Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, but that doesn't happen. What I'm saying is.

• 10:31Sam Parr?

  You have to provide for your daughter. What are you gonna do?

• 10:32Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, what I'm saying is it doesn't happen, right? So, uh, inside a big organization, it doesn't happen. America is just a giant organization, right? So you have all these different parties, all these different constituents, all of whom are, you know, contributing to this one large institution called America. Um, the reality is that changing that to be, to go back, you can't like turn back the clock and go back to where regulation goes down. Urgency goes up.

• 10:56Sam Parr?

  Yes, I can make urgency go up. Urgency's up right now. We just approved a trillion dollar bailout in five days.

• 11:03Shaan Puri?

  That's how big companies try to solve problems is by approving a giant cash bailout. That's not, that's not doing what this is about, right? What this is about is sort of, you know, the call to arms on building, innovating, taking risks and holding everybody to that standard. And if you're not doing that, you need to either support that or you need to get out of the way, right? If you're, you're the builders, go build, supporters, support the builders. And if you're neither of those, you need to get out of the way. And I just don't see that, I don't see that happening. I think that's like a dream. If we think that that's going to just change, that culture is just going to change now when there's like, you know, 300 million people have been operating some certain way their whole life and everybody's got their best interest.

• 11:46Sam Parr?

  I think you can change it, but I don't think it will. But I think you can change it. If I, if Sean got laid off in the bank that he stored his money at, went out of business and he lost all of his money. I have a feeling you're going to get it urgent and you're going to create something cool.

• 11:59Shaan Puri?

  People will riot and people, that, that sort of thing can happen. I guess what I'm saying is like, even when you just look at the coronavirus response, you see what China did, you see what Singapore did, you see what South Korea did. They were able to mobilize because they're actually run like a startup, right? It's essentially, you know, like a dictatorship where they're like, okay, here's the new way we live. If you're not on board with that, sorry, there's no debate here. We don't care. I'm going to weld. You know, in China, they're literally like welding people's doors shut. You're not leaving them a house. Oh, you wanted to go over here, temperature check on your forehead. Nope, go home. Right? Like you're closing all of this down. You know, we're not going to give you any warning or anything, right? Like they, they were able to call a response that frankly, we don't have the muscle for, nor the stomach to, to endure.

• 12:43Sam Parr?

  So here's how I think about it. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times.

• 12:51Shaan Puri?

  And women.

• 12:51Sam Parr?

  Good times, good, yes. Good times create weak men. So, hard times create strong people. Strong people create good times. Good times create weak people.

• 13:02Shaan Puri?

  And that's the cycle.

• 13:03Sam Parr?

  That's, that's the cycle. And, um, so the way that I, I personally suffer from this as well. So do you. You make money or you have success and you get soft. I like betting at all. I love, I love, um, putting myself in situations to where the risk of failure is strong. Um, and I personally love that stuff. And so I, I think this, you have to find ways to put yourself in a corner where you have to fight. Otherwise.

• 13:30Shaan Puri?

  So I think individuals are gonna do that. I think small organizations are gonna do that because they're gonna be led by people with strong wills like this and with strong mentalities like this. And then they're gonna be able to override. You know, if you're alone, you're overriding nobody. If you're in a small group, you're overriding a small group of people. Then as it gets bigger to the big companies and then eventually to the country, um, I don't think that realistically, I don't think that that's what happens. I think what happens is what you're talking about where hard times make strong people. Um, that's what's been happening in other parts of the world. And they've just been getting sort of stronger and stronger and living in, with a certain level of toughness and a certain level of, um, of non-complacency. And, um, and so they will thrive during the hard times in ways that we will not.

• 14:14Shaan Puri?

  That's sort of my, my pessimistic view.

• 14:17Sam Parr?

  There's this, um, great ad campaign that was from the 1960s. It was, uh, I thought it was Hertz. I just looked it up. It was Avis. Um, Avis was the rental car company and they were clearly number two by like a lot. Like Hertz was the, the market leader and everyone knew that. It's kind of like McDonald's versus, uh, like Taco Bell or something. Like everyone knows McDonald's is more popular. And Hertz had this ad campaign called We Try Harder. And, and then they also had other parts of the campaign that says, we know we're number two and that's good for you. Or, and like, they just like, they like, it said that they were number two. And like, this is why you, we have to work hard, extra hard to be, to do this. And they ended up becoming number one in the market for a little while. And the campaign was a huge hit.

• 14:59Sam Parr?

  And I think that's like the perfect explanation of what's going on, which is like, you have to act like you're number two.

• 15:05Shaan Puri?

  Right. You have to have that underdog mentality. Um, and.

• 15:08Sam Parr?

  And that's hard. It's hard to create that fake, um, I'm always, dude, I'm always referencing history. Here's another one. Ted Turner did the same thing was he would always pick up enemy. I mean, these are just like basic strategies for like war and leadership, which is you, you always have to act like you're the underdog.

• 15:25Shaan Puri?

  Right. Yeah. You know, this, this actually happened in sports as well. Sports is the other sort of great metaphor for life. And like in basketball, the Warriors had been dominant for the past five years. They went to the finals five straight times. And so the Warriors were so damn good that most teams basically just sort of threw in the towel or were like, you know, they just sort of silently marched to their slaughter. And one team, the Houston Rockets, basically decided, okay, you know, we have two options here. We're either gonna also just walk to our slaughter, or we can fight back and we will still probably lose, but we have to sort of David and Goliath this. And so the general manager came out and he was like, he said what everybody was thinking, which is, look, by default, the Warriors are gonna win this year

• 16:09Shaan Puri?

  and every year. So we need to elevate our risk profile. So we're gonna do some things, you know, they're, because people, they made a couple of trades that were like, on paper, kind of crazy. And they're like, yeah, you know, we just thought like, with our current team, we were very good, but very good was gonna be for sure second place. Like, there was no way we're gonna beat the Warriors. So now we're gonna go to this crazy strategy where we traded a whole bunch of players, we got rid of all of our big guys, we're only gonna shoot threes. And hey, if we get hot, we can knock them out. And it was like, they wanted to give themselves a puncher's chance. And they literally, you know, were very open about it. And it was very controversial. And I think this happens in business too, where if you're the clear number two, not only do you have to try harder, you need to elevate your risk

• 16:51Shaan Puri?

  profile. And so how do you take greater chances, given that by default, you're gonna lose. So if you're gonna lose anyways, you have really nothing to lose besides, you have nothing to lose and therefore you should elevate your, your risk and try to get into a more high volatility scenario where you may actually win.

• 17:09Sam Parr?

  I love it. I love these types of conversations and learning. I mean, you watch, I guess you definitely watch the Jordan stuff. We're gonna have to talk. I don't want to talk about it today, but we're gonna have to because that's similar to a lot of this stuff.

• 17:21Shaan Puri?

  For sure, for sure. Alright, let's pick another topic on this thing. Let's talk.

• 17:24Sam Parr?

  OnDeck. No. Yeah, OnDeck. And then Oatly.

• 17:30Shaan Puri?

  Okay, let's do OnDeck. Alright, so do you know what OnDeck is?

• 17:33Sam Parr?

  Yeah, so it's uh, be on deck. Is that the website?

• 17:36Shaan Puri?

  That's the handle, but yeah.

• 17:38Sam Parr?

  I think it's beondeck.com. They went to Y Combinator. They're, so I have friends that work with them. And they're confusing. Like, their website, I think, is dumb, but people like the product. So it's a small critique.

• 17:52Shaan Puri?

  So, okay, so let's explain what it is. So, okay, so be on deck was started by Eric Torenberg. Eric Torenberg was one of the early employees at Product Hunt. I think he was employee number one. And he helped Ryan kind of build the community, host events. He was just kind of a jack of all trades guy. So Product Hunt was such a big deal in the tech industry that Eric got extremely well-connected. And so he started doing several things. I would say he parlayed his position, which was like, you know, Product Hunt was a cool company, but it wasn't this massive success. It wasn't Facebook or Google. Like, they exited, I think, for 20 million bucks to Angel List, which was like about the same valuation that they were, that their investors had invested in them at. So it wasn't this like home run, you know,

• 18:35Shaan Puri?

  grand slam type of outcome, but it was definitely a good product. And but what Eric did was he parlayed his position as just like, you know, employee slash community builder at Product Hunt into like, today he has a fund called Village Global, which has like, I don't know, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates as LPs in his fund. It's like pretty insane. And so he raised a giant fund, he invested in companies, and then he started this thing called OnDeck, which was one of several experiments he was doing. Now, what OnDeck is, is you're an employee at a tech company, you're thinking about what's next for you. You want to go start a company. So you're on deck for your next opportunity. And what he did was it was like a set of meetups and an online educational program. So basically, it's a bunch of meetups where you might meet your

• 19:17Shaan Puri?

  new co-founders or hear ideas to, you know, help you get ideas for what's next or meet people that you're going to work on, work with your, or sorry, that'll be the founding team of your startup. And then also they do like speaker series. So you can like learn about stuff. So it's kind of like a, that's how it started. In fact, I hosted the first, I don't know, five on deck events at my office. And so I literally was there from, you know, event one, I think of the program. And it was like, okay, this is kind of cool. Like this guy works at Coinbase today and he says he wants to leave and go start a company. Interesting. What's he thinking about? Maybe that would be a good, maybe he's looking for a technical co-founder and here's this engineer that wants to work with him. So I kind of wrote it off as like, I don't know, it's like a meetup.

• 19:56Sam Parr?

  Small project, yeah.

• 19:57Shaan Puri?

  It was like a founder dating type of thing. That idea had been around before co-founder dating, I think it was called founder, founder dating, something like that.

• 20:03Sam Parr?

  Yeah.

• 20:03Shaan Puri?

  I was like, okay, whatever.

• 20:04Sam Parr?

  Which I think is so stupid as well.

• 20:05Shaan Puri?

  And then Eric moved on. And so I kind of wrote it off in my head. Then I saw this tweet recently that brought it back. He goes, be on deck is going to do a million dollars this year in revenue. And I was like, what? On deck? From what? And he's like, so we're doing a million dollars this year. We think we're building the Stanford MBA program for founders. And, you know, I think, you know, there's a pathway to 10 million and 100 billion. Right? Okay. So let's ignore that last part because that's the generic, like founders can say whatever the fuck they want. But let's look at the first part. So million dollars, where are they getting that from? So they now charge about a thousand bucks to be in on deck. So you're, you're somebody who's trying to figure out what's next. You pay a thousand bucks and you get into this network. You get to go to these events and you get to maybe meet your future co-founders or hear a bunch of cool ideas.

• 20:49Sam Parr?

  That sounds great. I should steal that.

• 20:51Shaan Puri?

  Then, so he's got a thousand people paying a thousand, a thousand bucks a month to be a part of on decks, like batches.

• 20:57Sam Parr?

  Wait, you're, you said a thousand people at a thousand dollars a month?

• 21:00Shaan Puri?

  Not a month. Sorry. Thousand dollars a year. I think it's like per, I think it's not a, like a yearly subscription. I think it's more like a batch, like you're, you're like in on deck. It's a program that lasts ten weeks. Yeah, you're like in a cohort. So anyways, thousand people, a thousand bucks a month. Okay. I'm sorry, a thousand bucks cohort, million dollars a year. All right. Not bad. So why is it the Stanford MBA? So this is where I started to look at it differently. So. Why do a lot of people go to business school? A lot of people go to business school. First, very few people go to business school for the education. You know, if you wanted to learn about P and L and like a cash flow statement and how to do a discounted cash flow, like, you know, analysis, you could do, you could just go on Khan Academy and find that in 10 minutes and be done with it. So people go to business school because they're looking to pivot their career. They have a job that's good.

• 21:45Shaan Puri?

  They go to business school because they don't know what they want to do next. And business school is like this mixing pot where you just go, you meet a bunch of other people. You have a year to figure your shit out and nobody's judging you. You're not like an unemployed bum sitting at home. It's like, no, no, I'm going to Stanford for my, for business school or whatever. And so people use it as a, as a career pivot to figure out what's next for them. So what he's done is he's basically just built, he's unbundled that part of business school and just built that as a service. And I think that's actually really fucking smart. So now I'm looking at OnDeck like, oh, he's unbundled one of the core values of business school. And he's offering it as a service for one tenth of the price of business school or one twentieth of the price of business school. So now I'm thinking OnDeck is actually pretty dope. What do you think?

• 22:30Sam Parr?

  Okay, so to sum, to sum it up, it's just a network, right?

• 22:34Shaan Puri?

  It's a network of other people who are also looking to start companies.

• 22:37Sam Parr?

  Okay, for sure, that can be a, a good business. I mean, that's just Vistage, that's just YPO.

• 22:45Sam Parr?

  So for sure, that's a, that's a, that business could be large.

• 22:54Sam Parr?

  What do I think of it? I, I'm, I'm mixed. If they stay like this, like niche thing, like only for like startup entrepreneurs, I'm not, I don't know. Can that be big enough? Like, is that VC funded big enough?

• 23:12Shaan Puri?

  You know, it's hard to say, right? Because a lot of these things that are catering, you know, when people started making developer tools, it's like, okay, how big is that? Then that turned out to be really massive because it turns out there's a lot of devs and they all make money and they could pay for things.

• 23:25Shaan Puri?

  And then on the other side, you have like Angel List, which is essentially Angel List is LinkedIn for the startup community. And Angel List is now like a multi-billion dollar company.

• 23:33Sam Parr?

  Well, but that's not how Angel List doesn't make, Angel List doesn't make money from job or LinkedIn makes money because they have 200 million people who use it and then they make money from job placements. They make money from software via their subscriptions via their

• 23:49Shaan Puri?

  Yes, LinkedIn makes money from recruiters, basically. And Angel List is amazing for jobs. They don't charge for it currently or they have a list which they charge for just a small, it's like a, that's their first attempt at charging for it, but Angel List is already, I think, placing more startup jobs than any other network that's focused on startup jobs. Angel's job platform is amazing. I only, if I hire, I only hire off Angel's jobs.

• 24:14Sam Parr?

  Am I being a hater? Could this be big?

• 24:18Shaan Puri?

  I, so here's why I don't think it's going to be big. So the reason why I don't think that it would be big is that starting a company is not capturing the startup community, it's capturing the founder community. For every company, you have, you know, hundreds of employees, but you only have one to two founders. And so they're capturing just the sort of 2% of the startup community, which is 2% of the overall job market.

• 24:40Sam Parr?

  Yeah, which is small.

• 24:41Shaan Puri?

  That's, that's why that's small. Now, their, their revenue could come not from just people paying for the cohort, it could come from other things. They could be investing in this and this could be like a, it's like a pre YC, right? Because you're actually finding the startups before they've even formed. And so you could get first dibs. You can get very cheap options on, on startups that come out of this. That's dependent on how, that's dependent on how good of talent you get.

• 25:05Sam Parr?

  But do you know these things like founder, like these ways where people are like, I'm looking for someone to start something with? In general, I think that is a horrible idea.

• 25:15Shaan Puri?

  You know, matchmaking and starting a company with somebody?

• 25:18Sam Parr?

  Yeah, that's stupid. And so I think if someone's like, yeah, I want to meet other people to start a company with. I think that in general, and I never, I rarely try to say like, it's always bad. Cause there's definitely could. In general, I think that is incredibly stupid.

• 25:32Shaan Puri?

  I actually agree that I agree with you a hundred percent.

• 25:35Sam Parr?

  And so

• 25:35Shaan Puri?

  Suboptimal.

• 25:36Sam Parr?

  Yes, it's not. It only works if it's like an Indian marriage where it's like, all right, fine. We are being assigned, we're in, there is no outs.

• 25:46Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 25:47Sam Parr?

  If that is the case, then yes, I think, I think that in some like, are your parents, were they?

• 25:51Shaan Puri?

  My parents were arranged, yes.

• 25:52Sam Parr?

  And I think that a lot, I don't know, I'm just, you would obviously know way more than I do. But I think that if you arrange marriages, I think could be, I bet a lot of them could be very happy.

• 26:04Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, the success rate is pretty much on par with the American marriage success rate, which is both poor. Like both of them 50% divorce rate or whatever. And it's also weird because you can't measure marital happiness in any way. You only measure divorced and Indian people don't want to get divorced because of cultural taboos. So their divorce rate is lower. They're more willing to, they're more willing to stay in an unhappy marriage than an American.

• 26:26Sam Parr?

  Yeah. And I don't know how like whole culture like regards like abuse and like if you should leave or should not leave. So like, it's a whole sticky thing that I'm not even going to get into. But my point is that when you don't have an option, then yeah. If it's like, all right, we're in this together no matter what, then that is interesting. But for, if you're going to this thing, like, oh, I'm going to meet another person to start a company with. I think that is stupid.

• 26:48Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 26:49Sam Parr?

  I don't support that at all.

• 26:50Shaan Puri?

  Right. So, so better ways to start your company, take people you've already worked with or at the company you're at right now. Like find the star person in your company and spin out with them. Or, you know, just start working on it alone, but talk about what you're doing and great people will come to you. And, you know, filter them. And then if anybody really is at that level, go ahead and make them a co-founder. Or find somebody who you believe is sort of like a domain expert, or you think could be that person and then date them for a while. So don't start a company with them right away. Just start talking to them, talking to them very frequently and maybe work on some side projects together before you go all the way and commit.

• 27:25Sam Parr?

  Yeah, that's why I always thought that white commentator was weird. I mean, I think it's great. But if they do something like where they're like, you meet someone and like, oh, this doesn't work and just pick a new idea. And you only have three months. I'm like, no, fuck that.

• 27:35Shaan Puri?

  So where did you find your co-founder for the hustle?

• 27:39Sam Parr?

  So, okay, so my story was I moved here from San Francisco, or sorry, from Nashville.

• 27:45Shaan Puri?

  And you went to founder dating?

• 27:47Sam Parr?

  No, not a chance. I rented an Airbnb and it was the cheapest one in the city and it was John Havel. And I was currently, I was, came out to start something and I would, he would just be up at night like talking to people who, because he had this idea that he was working on. And eventually I go, "Hey, John, can I just like work with you on free time? Like I'm here, I'm gonna go get an apartment full time, but like you just wanna like you're riffing on this?" And so we did. And so after two or three months, he was like, "All right, you're now my partner in this business." And then I left, or we did it, we had an exit. And then I went and started the hustle and I started working on it by myself for a year or something. And I go, "John, you wanna come and join this with me?" So it was serendipity.

• 28:24Shaan Puri?

  Right. But by the time you started the hustle, you'd already worked with the guy before for years. You sort of knew what you were getting into and for better or for worse, right? But like you weren't just matching at a meetup and saying, "Hey, you wanna, you know, do one of the most intense experiences of our lives together?" You know, you actually knew the guy before.

• 28:42Sam Parr?

  For the record, my next company, if I ever start another company, if, who knows if it's less forever, if we sell it, but I, I won't have a co-founder next time. Okay, I'll either do one of these things. If I have a co-founder, then they will be the majority owner and I'll be a silent partner and I won't work on it that much, but I'll fund it or be like an idea guy. Or I'm not gonna have a partner and I'm just gonna pay everyone's salary and I'm just gonna own it all.

• 29:08Shaan Puri?

  Why is that? So a lot of people will say the opposite, right? Why C won't, you know, historically, he doesn't take even solo founders. So why would you wanna do it solo? Some people say that's hard. Some people say it's lonely. You know, why would you do it next time?

• 29:23Sam Parr?

  Because I either want one of two things. I either wanna, so first of all, I wanna own everything. I'm greedy like that. I wanna own all of it because I'm very competent in my capabilities. And I think whatever I start working on, it's gonna be very valuable. So I wanna either own all of it or as much as possible. I don't wanna split anything. Now, if like I'll give equity to people, but I don't want it to be 50/50. And so if I'm gonna build something and I'm passionate about it, I also want it to be my way. You know, I think that this is controversial. I think a lot of great companies are monarchies. They're not dictatorships, but they're definitely not democracies. They are a monarchy. There is a king or a queen and that person's the boss and they can delegate, but ultimately it's a monarchy. So I want to be the king. I want it to be exactly my way.

• 30:05Sam Parr?

  Or, and I've done this before, and I like this, is I still own a lot of it and I put up the risk by paying for it. But I have an operator in place and I'm, and I'm really hands off and I delegate and I let that person's, uh, they, I let that person execute on how I want them to execute my vision.

• 30:21Shaan Puri?

  Right. Yeah, I, I do think that's the right fit for you. I think that's your personality and I think that you'll probably win more that way.

• 30:28Sam Parr?

  And some people are good at collaborating, but I also think that what we are talking about with China and America is, it's not unfortunately or fortunately, most of the time, cool things that happen fast. It comes because one person is dictating what everyone needs to do.

• 30:47Shaan Puri?

  Right. So like me with my co-founder last, uh, uh, like for, for Bebo.

• 30:52Sam Parr?

  Who was your co-founder for Bebo?

• 30:53Shaan Puri?

  Well, Furcon became my co-founder essentially. So I initially recruited him, hired him, but over time, you know, within that first year, I promoted him up to CTO. We spun off the company where the other CTO was. And I was like, look, you run this other company. We have, this guy's now this my CTO.

• 31:08Sam Parr?

  Was it a 50 50 split?

• 31:11Shaan Puri?

  Uh, no, it wasn't 50 split exactly, but, um, but actually when we sold, um, I made sure that he got exactly what I got. So.

• 31:18Sam Parr?

  Okay. I can, I can deal with that.

• 31:20Shaan Puri?

  I evened it out later, um, which was cool because I had the option, right? But he had done so much. I didn't feel right taking more than his share.

• 31:27Sam Parr?

  I think that's the way to go, which is like you are the boss, but then when it all comes down to it, you, you split the winnings.

• 31:33Shaan Puri?

  But I guess what I would say is the, um, I, I, I agree with you that you want it to be where, um, you could be pretty ruthless and you can be very, you know, dogmatic and how things are going to go. But I was lucky enough to find somebody who is also that way. And so we were so aligned and we were so similar in our personality on those, in that way, that it was like, oh, great. Like we both think of this the same way. We, so it's like a, a two X multiplier. It's like both of us are saying this to everybody in the company. And so it was an even louder message. And then I got the benefit of like, hey, now I can start companies that are. Deep technology companies because that's where this guy's super strong. And on his side, he's like, hey, I can, you know, build a bigger organization because this guy knows how to run an organization. I can do something that needs sales. This guy knows how to do sales.

• 32:17Shaan Puri?

  And so if tomorrow was like, yo, let's do another thing. If he was like, yo, you want to do this? I'd be like, all right, let's do it. And if I did the same, great. We could also do things independently, but like, I told him, I was like, you know, we need to be in business together for the next 20 years. We need to be working together, investing together, partnering up on different stuff. Like it's rare to find somebody like this. You got to take advantage when you have it.

• 32:37Sam Parr?

  I think that's the way to go. I also think though, if you're going to do, and if you have that person, there has to be a boss. And so there are like, if I were to start, like if I had a Furcon, like you, which I do, and Adam, I say, all right, I'm the, I'm the owner or, and I'm okay with this is

• 32:53Shaan Puri?

  You are the owner, yeah.

• 32:54Sam Parr?

  You're the owner and I'll do what you say. But like, in that case, I will say, here's what I think's best. And if they, and they say what they think is best, I'll just fucking go ahead and do what they want. I'll, and I think that is needed.

• 33:08Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I, I, I think co-founder is very different than co-CEO. Co-CEO, I personally believe in, I have some friends who've done it. They say good things, but I'm not that way.

• 33:15Sam Parr?

  That's not how a lot of people start companies. They start companies with like, all right, we are

• 33:18Shaan Puri?

  We make decisions together.

• 33:20Sam Parr?

  Yeah, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Someone's got to know who's, you got to have a boss and there's one guy and they make the decisions and they consult with people. But at the end of the day, they, they call the shots and I'm fine being the number two.

• 33:34Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 33:35Sam Parr?

  And I'm fine being the number one.

• 33:36Shaan Puri?

  Okay, cool. So, all right, let's move on. So on deck, we think it's moderately interesting.

• 33:42Shaan Puri?

  I'm impressed they got this far. I guess my last word would be Eric's not running it. He has another guy running it. I don't know who that guy is.

• 33:48Sam Parr?

  I just put them up.

• 33:50Shaan Puri?

  I think Eric, I like Eric. I think he's a nice guy and I think he's parlayed what he, what he had into much more. And I give him mad props for that. But at the same time, like he's had five good ideas, but tried to execute on all five and put operators in place for each one. And I think There's like, you don't skip to level 10. You don't just get to be black belt right away. And you gotta sort of earn your operational excellence. Like, go build one of these ideas into something massive. First, and then like, start trying to be, uh, you know, somebody with a portfolio of things, who's, you know, putting operators in place and sort of like, I don't know, I just feel like OnDeck could be great. I would feel much better about it if Eric was like, uh, Eric who started it was like,

• 34:34Shaan Puri?

  this is my thing. I'm gonna make this a success. I'm gonna work on this like a maniac. Um, but I think he's just starting a bunch of things that all sound good. And then I don't know where the follow through is. That's my doubt.

• 34:44Sam Parr?

  I completely agree with you. And that's a great thing that we can bring up for the listeners, which is, I get pitched on a fairly basis to, uh, invest in stuff. And me and you, and both invested into our good friend. And the first question we asked him was, is this your full-time job?

• 34:57Shaan Puri?

  Right. Cause he's that same way, right? He, he has lots of good, cool things. He spins them up. And then he spins up another thing and another thing. And they all sound good. But like, where's the, like, for any of these to achieve that, a big vision, the follow through has to be so fucking strong.

• 35:11Sam Parr?

  Right. And if someone says, like, oh, no, it's like part-time, or I'll go full-time eventually. I'm like, alright, just, uh, I'm out. Let me know if you're full-time. So I think that if people do wanna start stuff, like, you can't, it's not, some people do it. Like, there are people who have pulled this off, rarely though. You have to be all in. Um, and if you're like, doing it part-time, I think you're a punk.

• 35:34Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, and I, maybe I'm projecting because I've made this mistake before, but because I've made the mistake, I kinda know the mistake. And so that's where I'm like, oh, you know, trying to juggle, or trying to just be like, yeah, I, I had this idea. I started it. I'm the chairman. That's always the code word when it's like, uh,

• 35:52Sam Parr?

  That works sometimes, but not all the time.

• 35:53Shaan Puri?

  You're the chairman of a five-person company, which means nothing. It means you have a lot of equity and you're not doing jack shit. Um, so, so it's like, oh, I'm the chairman and this guy's the CEO. It's like, okay, who's that guy? And like, why don't you, if this is so good, why don't you believe in it enough?

• 36:06Sam Parr?

  Right.

• 36:07Shaan Puri?

  And your time on it, like, There are people who pull it off. They're more the exception than the rule. And I think those people have put in their time of being the maniac building their company before and have done so much operations that they know how to actually delegate and hire good people to be their operators. But if you've never done the operations yourself in any company and built it up and like been that maniac to like to have a big win, can you really do this? I don't know. I sort of have doubts.

• 36:36Sam Parr?

  No, I agree.

• 36:37Shaan Puri?

  Um, let's talk about Clubhouse. Do you know Clubhouse?

• 36:40Sam Parr?

  Yeah, I used it on Friday and Saturday. It's, it's okay.

• 36:44Shaan Puri?

  So let's explain. So, all right. So this last week or so, at least that's when it came into my world. Maybe it's been going on longer than that. But last week or so, it seems like everybody with a pulse in Silicon Valley started using this app called Clubhouse at the same time. Um, what is Clubhouse? You go look in the App Store. Okay. You're not going to find it, right? So Clubhouse is only in beta. It's a, it's like test flight only. So you can only get it if you join the test flight, which

• 37:09Sam Parr?

  You gotta get a link from a friend.

• 37:10Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, you gotta get a link. You gotta have the special Apple app that lets you test things that are not in the App Store yet, that sort of thing. So what is Clubhouse? So basically it's like a, um, it's like audio channel. Like let's actually open it up real quick and

• 37:24Sam Parr?

  Dude, I just kind of, I literally asked them are talking, just got a text from my friend and he goes, hey, were you on Clubhouse last night?

• 37:29Shaan Puri?

  Right. No, I wasn't. And, uh, but that's hilarious that that's what was happening. Okay. So like there's a room. Okay. So the heavy hitters are not on right now. But, uh, last night, you know, Reid Hoffman has joined Clubhouse, like the founder of LinkedIn. Um, the, you know, the top people from Cora, the founders of, you know, Dave Moran from Path and the Vault from Angelus.

• 37:45Sam Parr?

  And said Mark Zuckerberg was on it.

• 37:48Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. I don't know if that's the real Zuck or not. I sort of doubt it, but you know, Jaden Smith I saw was on it. Uh, Jared Leto's on it. So basically, um, there's a bunch of, I don't even want to call them big names because that's an insult to like athletes and celebrities and musicians. But like, you know, in our dork world of tech Twitter, there's big names, um, on this thing. And what it is, is like a chat room where you go on and you can be either on mic where you're, you're one of the five people talking, or you can be in the audience and you're just listening and just nothing to do. You just sit there. So it's kind of cool. You get to be a fly on the wall. This is very similar to a product I built called Blab. So I was having flashbacks like crazy the whole time.

• 38:28Shaan Puri?

  And it was started by this guy who created an app called Highlight. Did you ever play with Highlight back in the day? Years ago. So Highlight was, so one time Twitter took, so Twitter took off at South by Southwest, the big conference in Austin. That's where Twitter really escaped velocity out of Silicon Valley to like the mainstream. And everybody was using it. And then the next year, Foursquare, or you know, maybe I have those flipped, but one year Foursquare was the big hit of South by Southwest. Everybody's checking into places and Foursquare was the shit. So then every social app was like, yo, what's our South by Southwest strategy? We got to launch at South by. That's what Twitter did. That's what Foursquare did. And so then Highlight comes out and Highlight was like this networking app where you could see people around you. It was location based.

• 39:09Shaan Puri?

  And so you see them, you see their profile and then you can sort of like give them a high five or whatever to like say, say hi to them. It was like a Tinder for professional kind of, just seeing people around you. Didn't, it was big at South by because everybody was in one place. And then when everyone went home, nobody used Highlight anymore. So it started by the guy who did that. And it sold. Did Highlight sell? I think. Well, it definitely was. Not for a lot. Busted. Yeah. It was not like, it didn't work. So anyways, this guy's back. He's got this new app Clubhouse and it's popping off right now. And so on one hand, you know, the inner hater in me went in and was like, this is nothing. This sucks. Also, I see all these reasons why this thing is going to fail, but then at the same time, I'm like,

• 39:51Shaan Puri?

  you know, you get zero points for predicting a new social app will fail because they're all going to fail. It's like saying it's, you know, it's not going to be a tsunami today. It's like, oh, wow. What a great prediction. And so, so, you know, predicting it's going to fail really wasn't cool. And so then I went the other way. I was like, all right, what, what is cool about this? So I was on it one night and Naval, who's the founder of Angelist and probably one of the few people. I don't want to say I look up to, but I've learned a lot from, right? So he has, uh, he has, you know, tons of books out there. His book Venture Hacks is amazing. If anyone wants to raise money, it's like a founder's bible for how to not get screwed by VCs when you raise money, um, Venture Hacks. And so then, then he started Angel List, which I think is a badass company. And then, um, you know, he's had his podcast and it's sort of, he's turned into like a Buddhist philosopher

• 40:36Shaan Puri?

  of tech, uh, recently. So anyways, this guy's awesome. Learned a lot from him and he was sitting up there and like Naval is so, uh, like in demand in tech that, you know, you could email him and you're, it's like nearly impossible to get a meeting with this guy. If I said, hey Naval, can I get an hour of your time to just talk to you? Can I, you know, you want to get a coffee? Um, like, you know, he couldn't type fuck you in caps lock enough, uh, to like not do that. But on Clubhouse, he was just sitting there and he was like begging people to come talk to him. He was like, yeah, who wants to chat? Right? He was talking to the guy who started Path. That guy had to go. He's like, who wants to talk? And so I just jumped in. I was like, you know, click the button. Now I'm in the hot seat and he's like, okay.

• 41:15Sam Parr?

  Oh, you, you talked to him?

• 41:17Shaan Puri?

  Yeah. He's like, Sean, like, what's up? What's your question? I was like, I don't really have a question. You know, cause you know, I could tell it had started to turn into the Naval celebrity hour where people would come on, even like other super successful millionaires in Silicon Valley were coming on and be like, hey Naval, you know, long time fan, just wanted to ask, what's your opinion on Bitcoin? Or like, you know, stupid questions like that. So I tried not to do that. But anyways, I ended up shooting the shit with Naval for like, you know, 45 minutes. Um, and it was awesome. And so I was like, okay, I got my value out of Clubhouse. This thing's going to go to shit eventually, but for now.

• 41:48Sam Parr?

  Okay. Well, first or second, I'm going to comment on your experience, but first I'm going to say my opinion, which is neat little thing. It's fucking stupid. No one, uh, no one should invest money in this. It's not a business. It's a really cool gadget. It's going to be gone in three months. All right. And I hate saying that because like I said, I don't like being haters. I like, I want everyone to win. Um, I think this is, this is, um, a cool, it's like fucking Wikipedia. It's a cool gadget, horrible business. Um, it's like, like HQ, like it was a fun app, awesome, served its purpose. It'll be dead and.

• 42:27Shaan Puri?

  There's honestly, there's been, I'm not just saying this because we built Blab, which was extremely similar, but, um, there's been like five other apps that were exactly this. The difference is they didn't have, um, the personal networks to get every VC and founder in Silicon Valley on the app at once. Um, and, and also it's a beta.

• 42:47Sam Parr?

  Who gives a fuck about every, I don't care if you've seen founder in Silicon Valley, fuck those guys. I don't give a shit about those people. I want some nerd who in Missouri, or I want, or I want like some like good looking kid who's 17 and wears vans and cool hoodies to use it. And I want them to like dance in front of their friends. That's.

• 43:07Shaan Puri?

  As a founder, that's what you want. Yes. As a founder, that's what you want. As a user, I don't think you would care if a nerd in Missouri is using it. You wouldn't care to tune in, right? So.

• 43:16Sam Parr?

  Yeah, I would, dude. I use TikTok all the time. All these 18 year olds are like so freaking good looking and dance and are all funny. Like, I love that shit. They're awesome. I love watching these kids.

• 43:25Shaan Puri?

  On TikTok, that's cool. When it's just audio and it's just somebody talking, uh, it's way less interesting when it's just a random person talking about a random thing. Um, so I think, yeah, you know, if it's TikTok and they've curated the one amazing video by an average person, that's what TikTok is, right? Like the feed is taking millions of videos and saying, okay, what is the point oh one percent of these that are entertaining? Cool. We'll put these on a feed for you. Um, when it's clubhouse and you just open it up and it's like, oh, who's talking right now? Let me just take my chances. Um, you know, you're, you're, it's not going to be that interesting. So.

• 43:57Sam Parr?

  So I, I just, I just texted Lance and I asked him if he wanted to do a, a talk on there with me. So I was, I want to take advantage of this TikTok. Or what, let's clubhouse thing. Let's see if that works.

• 44:09Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, exactly. He might not be able to get it. Like, uh, now they.

• 44:12Sam Parr?

  I have a link.

• 44:13Shaan Puri?

  Well, they gated it now. So now if you try to get in, I think you have to like fill out a form and they're not taking any more people in the beta or something like that. I don't know. But whatever. Anyways, I think it's interesting. Um, and yeah, I had a, had a fun, fun chat.

• 44:27Sam Parr?

  My opinion is.

• 44:31Sam Parr?

  That's my opinion. Someone's

• 44:32Shaan Puri?

  This is the analysis that people come here for.

• 44:36Sam Parr?

  Alan just made fun of me because I said, I love these good looking kids. I mean, like cute, not like hot, like

• 44:43Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, that's

• 44:44Sam Parr?

  Like they got like, they got fucking cool haircuts and they wear bright hoodies and they're just like, cool looking kids like that rapid collared. Like, since when did every kid get a high top, like a, like a, like a uptown fade and where like, uh, vans, like they're all just cool looking. That's what I'm talking about.

• 45:04Shaan Puri?

  That's what I'm talking about. Alright, I'm gonna cut you off before, before you get arrested. Okay, let's talk about Oatly. Dude, I've been drinking Oatly and Oatly is the shit. Do you drink Oatly?

• 45:15Sam Parr?

  You know that stuff spikes your blood sugar just as much as normal milk and like a can of soda.

• 45:21Shaan Puri?

  Um, yeah, okay. I don't know. I don't really care about that as much, but, uh, I don't normally drink milk. But I do drink Oatly now and it's delicious and, um, fuck milk in comparison. Why would anybody drink milk when this stuff exists? It's way better. Better tasting is better for you. It's better for the environment. So it's better in all regards.

• 45:40Sam Parr?

  It's okay.

• 45:41Shaan Puri?

  Dude, have you had it? Have you drank it? Have you had some cereal with it?

• 45:44Sam Parr?

  Yeah, dude, it just tastes like almond milk. I mean, yeah, uh, it's fine enough. It, it's fine.

• 45:50Shaan Puri?

  It's amazing. And also the people have spoken because Oatly is like spiking through the roof. So they went from, so the stories, the backstory is pretty crazy. Do you know the company story?

• 45:59Sam Parr?

  No, but I, uh, we covered it in trends like three months ago. We're like, oat milk is gonna just go through the roof.

• 46:05Shaan Puri?

  And, uh, you're, you're totally right. I think, you know, it probably has already been for the last few years. So, so I looked up their story. It's pretty nuts. So it was started by the Swedish, it's a Swedish company. So it started by this Swedish like chemist, basically like food scientist. And, um, it was started like 20 years ago and it, it looked like, you should just Google like Oatly original packaging. It looks like shit. Um, like it looks not cool and nobody really drank it. It was like total fringe thing, but this guy was a believer. So the company stayed alive for a while. And then in 2000 and

• 46:39Shaan Puri?

  Fourteen, I want to say, maybe two thousand six. It's either two thousand six, two thousand fourteen. This guy becomes CEO of the company. Younger guy, a good-looking dude, looks like he's, you know, done some of these turnarounds before. And he's like, okay, um, we need to rebrand this thing. And so he hires, you know, a bunch of creatives and they rebrand it. So first thing they did is they changed the packaging so it's in English, not in Swedish. Uh, and then they made it look like, kind of like all the D to C brands type of thing. So they're like, nice colors, nice little packaging, you know, funny copy on the packaging, that sort of thing. And Oatly starts to sell, uh, like it hits twenty million in sales. And then it hit a hundred million in sales. Now it's over two hundred million in sales because they're literally, they cannot produce enough Oatly for the demand.

• 47:21Shaan Puri?

  There's actually black market Oatly because they ran out to the point where baristas, like individual consumers don't need to go pay more for it. But baristas are like, look, this hurts our business when we can't offer Oatly as the creamer. And so there's a whole like black market where baristas have to pay this upcharge right now to get Oatly for their coffee shops. Because people demand it and there's just not enough out there. So they are dominating.

• 47:45Sam Parr?

  It, it tastes great, I think, but, uh, I'm an almond milk guy. It tastes great. I, I, I, I think that I was reading some work on it and they were saying some person was testing their glucose, their blood glucose. And they're like, it spikes super high with Oatly versus almond milk. So that's why, to me, it, to me, it's like, it, I have to do more research before I make my final decision for myself. But it's almost like it's the Beyond Burger of milk, which is like, it's supposed to look healthy, but in reality, it's like, kind of bullshit.

• 48:16Shaan Puri?

  Well, I don't think they're saying it's healthy. They're saying it's healthy in two regards. One is, you know, there's a huge percentage of people that are lactose intolerant. And so they need to be drinking alternative milks. Right now, one in ten people drink alternative milks versus real milk. And then of those, of the 10% that drink alternative milks, again, only 10% or less are drinking oat milk. The rest are drinking soy or almond milk. My understanding is that oat is better for you than the soy or almond milk. I might be wrong, so, you know, correct me if I'm wrong. But, um, the point is, all these alt milks are going to continue to grow like crazy. Oatly is the best of the oat milks, um, and the sales back it up. And then if you, if you have time, watch the talk of the creative director, uh, this guy named John,

• 49:01Shaan Puri?

  just search John Oatly, um, and then, you know, search that on YouTube and, uh, he gives a talk at this conference called Slush, and he tells the story of rebranding Oatly and all the different crazy stuff they did to rebrand it, and how they were trying to market it, and then the milk industry, which he was like, you know, you think the gun, uh, industry in America is bad? Check out the dairy industry in Sweden. Like, these guys are, uh, you know, ruthless and they're powerful. And so he's like, they went on this campaign against the dairy industry, and, um, and it just, every time the dairy industry tried to crush them or hurt them in any way, they just made a big fuss about it. They would take out full-page ads saying what, you know, what the dairy industry's trying to do to them, and it just made them more popular. And, uh, they just got more and more and

• 49:44Shaan Puri?

  more popular over time, and now they're just sort of, literally can't keep up with the demand. So I think Oatly is kind of amazing. Um, like, if I could invest in Oatly, I would. Um, and I tried to, I actually messaged them, and they were like, hey, we're not currently taking investors. And I was like, okay, well, just, you know, take my money somehow, please. I need to be involved in this company. I believe in this company.

• 50:02Sam Parr?

  You know who did something similar was RX Bars. So RX Bars, um, it's a company that bootstrapped and sold for six or 700 million dollars to Procter & Gamble, or one of the big, um, consumer, CBG companies, I forget, Unilever. Um, and anyway, they had their bars and, Callog, uh, they had their bars, and it's fine. I mean, it's a fine product. I don't, it's not a revolutionary product. It's just, it, it, it just has, uh, dates instead of sugar, and it's just a granola bar with no, I mean, whatever. And anyway, they were selling it, and then they go, no, this packaging sucks. Let's, let's, like, we need to try something. And so they changed their packaging, just say, uh, it only had the ingredients, and the, the shtick is that it, it was just like, three dates, four eggs, like, eight nuts. And like, that's it.

• 50:48Sam Parr?

  And that's their packaging and that's it.

• 50:50Shaan Puri?

  Amazing.

• 50:51Sam Parr?

  And the founder said that once the packaging changed to that, it took off. Which is proof just about how important all this shit is. I always say distribution versus product. Distribution is more important than product.

• 51:06Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 51:08Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, the wrapping of the product was more important than what was inside the wrapper in their case.

• 51:12Sam Parr?

  Yeah, and it's like a good thing, but it's not any different than 10 other things.

• 51:17Shaan Puri?

  Right.

• 51:19Sam Parr?

  All right, you want to talk about one more thing?

• 51:20Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, pick one.

• 51:22Sam Parr?

  Let's do.

• 51:27Sam Parr?

  I don't want to talk about. Okay, yeah, what's that?

• 51:32Shaan Puri?

  What's what? Fast grants?

• 51:33Sam Parr?

  Fastgrants.org.

• 51:34Shaan Puri?

  Okay, cool. This is not the sexiest idea, but I think it's very cool and good for the world. So I think the founder of Stripe is the one who created this. So John Colson.

• 51:42Sam Parr?

  Oh, I saw that.

• 51:43Shaan Puri?

  So they created this thing called Fastgrants.org. And I'm just going to read off the website because they explain it in very simple terms. So basically, the idea is that science funding is a very slow moving process. So you have to apply for grants. That takes a long time. I worked in a science lab in college. And, you know, the scientist who should have been doing the experiments and analyzing them instead spent 98% of his time writing grant papers just to keep the lab alive. And so grant, you know, grant funding is super slow. And so they were like, all right, you know, why can't we make this more like YC? You know, where YC is like, fill out this application, do a 10 minute interview in person, and then we will give you a check. So Fast Grant is basically a $10 to $500,000 decision made in under 48 hours.

• 52:28Shaan Puri?

  If you approve the grant, if, if, if the grant is approved, you receive the payment as quickly as can be wired to your account. And so they have, you know, the Colson brothers behind it. They have Paul Graham, Reid Hoffman, Chris Sacca, Elon Musk. You know, a whole bunch of different people. So they have, they've committed over 15 million already in Fast Grant.

• 52:49Sam Parr?

  I'm looking at it. Wow.

• 52:50Shaan Puri?

  They're just trying to make science better. And I think this is amazing for the world. I think this is like the type of thing that rich people should do. You know, when you do hit the tech lottery, I think this is an amazing way to sort of pay it forward in a way that's not just charity. And, you know, fixing a pretty broken system, which is the sort of scientific grant system.

• 53:09Sam Parr?

  Oh, your friend Eric at Beyond Deck to apply. He's an academic institution at this point, right?

• 53:19Sam Parr?

  I feel like the the school of Saint Par and Sean Perry is in session every Tuesday and Thursday. Maybe we should apply.

• 53:26Shaan Puri?

  Well, that's what I was talking to the all about actually was I was like, yeah, here's what I want to do. I want to fix education. Here's how I'm thinking about it. You know, what do you think? And and that's what we kind of shot the shit on for 30 minutes. And in 10 minutes was me explaining this one really degenerate crypto trade I'm doing right now.

• 53:43Sam Parr?

  Which is what? That's what I care about, Sean.

• 53:45Shaan Puri?

  It's like you're insane.

• 53:46Sam Parr?

  You had me at degenerate.

• 53:46Shaan Puri?

  He's like, you're insane. And I was like, yeah, well, you know, I think I'm not insane. He's like, no, I think you're insane. I was like, okay, maybe I should reconsider this. Basically, Ferkun showed me this awesome thing.

• 53:57Sam Parr?

  Okay, this is how it starts.

• 53:59Shaan Puri?

  And I was like, oh, yeah, this makes sense to me. Okay, so here's what I'm here's what we're doing right now. So he started showing me the world of DeFi. Do you even know what DeFi is? I bet you don't even know what DeFi is.

• 54:11Sam Parr?

  No, I just for listeners, I think people don't understand how basic I am. And I think you understand that, but I'm pretty basic as fuck.

• 54:19Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, and I actually think I don't even know it, right? And as I start to explain it, somebody who understands DeFi is going to be like this schmuck trying to explain something he doesn't understand. But that's who I am. I learned 20% of things and I'm like, oh, this is interesting. I'm going to start learning about it, using it and talking about it before I like, that's how I learn it. So anyways, he started telling me about DeFi and I was like, what is that? So DeFi is decentralized finance. So basically what happened is here's how cryptos come along, right? Bitcoin comes out, people are like, this shit's going to change the world. Bitcoin goes on this crazy price roller coaster. And then some people are like, oh, my God, cryptocurrency, of course, genius. We can this is all open source code for blockchain. Okay, copy paste, Litecoin, copy paste, Dogecoin. And they started just spinning up other random currencies.

• 55:04Shaan Puri?

  And so then all these what they call altcoins existed. Now, one guy who was pretty legit, this guy Vitalik, was like, okay, I'm gonna, I like this Bitcoin thing, but he created Ethereum.

• 55:16Sam Parr?

  And for the listeners, go and Google this guy. If there's any person who I trust to create a great currency, it's someone who looks like him. I used to say, when this whole Bitcoin IPO thing was going on, it was all these bros with abs in the Ferraris. I'm like, if you have a six-pack and/or a fancy car, you should not be doing this.

• 55:35Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, you're fucking out. I do not trust your

• 55:36Sam Parr?

  Yeah, you're out. You have to have huge ears that stick out, bags on your eyes, and a super skinny neck. Otherwise, I'm out.

• 55:43Shaan Puri?

  If your beard is not connected to your chest hair, I do not trust your anarchism that it takes to build a great crypto ecosystem.

• 55:50Sam Parr?

  Totally. Like, yeah, they're like, do you bet your body weight? If yes, I'm out. So like, I'm just not interested in that.

• 56:00Shaan Puri?

  So, I am the exact same way. I saw Vitalik, and I literally judged the book by its cover. I was like, oh, I think this is the next Mark Zuckerberg. I'm gonna buy Ethereum. Okay, so that worked. So Ethereum ran up in price like crazy. Ethereum did the first ICO, which was an IPO for a currency, or IPO for a digital asset. And so they, you know, it was priced at, I think, seventeen dollars. Today, Ethereum, and anybody could have invested in that. And today, Ethereum trades for, you know, a hundred eighty dollars. It's gone up as high as a thousand dollars. And so, you know, the best investment of the last decade was just buying Bitcoin early on. The second best, I think, was Ethereum. And of all tech or startup investments, that would have been the best thing. And anybody

• 56:42Shaan Puri?

  could have done it at any given time for the first, you know, few years of their existence. So, anyhow, so Ethereum is like a platform, right? It's like programmable. The idea with Ethereum is, hey, we're like, Bitcoin is a great, Bitcoin's like digital gold. Fantastic, you should just buy it and hold it. It's a store of value. It's not gonna inflate. That's the rules of Bitcoin. It cannot be manipulated by governments. Or you can't just print a new trillion Bitcoin, like they just printed a new, you know, six trillion dollars. So that's Bitcoin. Ethereum was like, hey, money should be programmable. Why can't we make a contract, a smart contract that says, you know, when I send you this file, unlock the money, you know, you put the money in escrow, you know, you wire your Ethereum here. When I send you this file, and you click validate, then, you know, it unlocks the money. And

• 57:26Shaan Puri?

  we don't need all these middlemen to do transactions. So why can't we do smart contracts? Why can't we, you know, mint new coins, all that sort of thing? Anyways. Fast forward to DeFi. The crypto wave has crashed, right? Bitcoin went up to 20K. Now it's down to 6K. And a lot of the speculators and a lot of the hype is gone, right? Like, there was a period of time where you could turn on CNBC and they had a permanent Bitcoin price above the whole stock market ticker was a giant Bitcoin price 24/7. Like, that's how kind of mainstream it went. And now, I would say, you know,

• 57:59Sam Parr?

  Dude, fucking, fucking Katy Perry was taking Instagram pictures, talking about-

• 58:04Shaan Puri?

  Floyd Mayweather was like, "Hey, I love, you know, blah blah blah coin. You know, it's hot. Get in." And, you know, so that was the way that crashed. And so, all that's left is the true believers, who weren't in it for the money anyways, and the total degenerate gamblers, and who are like, too deep in the hole to get out.

• 58:22Sam Parr?

  Which I love. I want to be around those people.

• 58:24Shaan Puri?

  What those people have done over the last few years is kind of amazing. So, they rebuilt all of the financial infrastructure of the real world in this crypto world, in the digital asset world. So, for example, there's exchanges, okay, just like the stock market exchange, but they're open 24/7. And, you know, they don't close for the weekends type of thing. Then there's lending platforms. Then there's, you know, stable coins, which are always pegged to the $1. So, you can use them as an intermediate currency and not worry about volatility. So, people have just built layers of prediction markets. Everything you have in the traditional financial infrastructure has been rebuilt through what they call DeFi. Now, it's definitely not perfect. In fact, just two days ago, one of them got hacked, because again, they're

• 59:06Shaan Puri?

  not a centralized org. They can't just like, stop things. They can't like, reverse things.

• 59:10Sam Parr?

  So, what's your trade?

• 59:11Shaan Puri?

  Alright, so the trade is this. I believe in Ethereum, and I want to buy and hold it, which I've been doing for years. And, so I have this Ethereum, but I also want to invest, let's say, in my tech startups. And, okay, so let's say I wanted more cash. So, if I went to a bank and I said, "Hey, Sam's got this startup. Can you lend me some money, bank, so I can invest in this startup?" The bank would be like, "What the fuck are you talking about? We don't lend money for you to invest in a startup." And so, instead, what I can do here is, I can go to this website called Compound.finance. And you go to Compound Finance, and what you can do is, you can put up Ethereum as collateral. So, I put in, let's say, $10,000 of Ethereum, or $100,000 of Ethereum.

• 59:54Shaan Puri?

  And then I can borrow up to 75% of that in another currency, like for example, DAI or USDC, which Coinbase's stablecoin. So basically, you put in, let's call it a hundred dollars, you can borrow seventy-five dollars of that on there at a very low rate. So like, you know, when Furcon was first showing me this, the rate was like 0.4%. So it's like, you know, basically zero interest you have to pay on this thing. It's like such a low interest rate. Now, I think it's like three and a half, four percent. But, but basically, you could, basically, you could borrow this stablecoin very cheap. You could trade that out for US dollars and you could put that into startups. So you put that into the stock market, you put in for whatever you want.

• 1:00:36Shaan Puri?

  So his take was like, look, if you're going to invest in the startup anyways, and you're going to invest in Ethereum anyways, you could kind of leverage your Ethereum to get the money to invest in these startups, and you could keep your cash to do things like buy a house or do whatever else you want, like in the traditional financial ecosystem. And so that's the trade I started making was, I started buying Ethereum, putting it up on Compound Finance, borrowing against it in a cryptocurrency called USDC, which is Coinbase's stablecoin. And then I sold the stablecoin for US dollars, and I put the US dollars into startups.

• 1:01:10Sam Parr?

  I think this is just a horrible idea.

• 1:01:13Shaan Puri?

  So did Naval. Naval was like, wait a minute, hold on, let me get this straight. So you are betting, you're taking Ethereum, which is a highly volatile asset, and you're staking it, and then you're borrowing a currency and you're putting it into startups, this highly illiquid asset. Like, whoa, that's crazy. And I was like, yeah, it's a little bit crazy, but, you know, here's the reality of it. This is like, I'm not betting my retirement account on this. This is, you know, like, an amount of play money for me that like is not gonna, it could all go to zero. I expect the startup to go to zero, Ethereum could go to zero, like, I wouldn't be in any, my life would not change if this all went to zero. But both of them, I believe in long term. I believe in these startups long term, and I believe in Ethereum long term.

• 1:01:55Shaan Puri?

  And if I would have otherwise invested in both of these anyways, then this is a slightly riskier way to do it, but it frees up more cash for me to do other things. So that's my take on it.

• 1:02:07Sam Parr?

  I don't even know where to begin on that.

• 1:02:09Shaan Puri?

  What don't you like about it? Let's talk about it.

• 1:02:11Sam Parr?

  I'd rather just put my money in Marriott. Like, I just don't understand why. I, I, okay, so I think that, to me, it's like, what you just did is the reason why I buy gadgets. It would be far easier just to have a normal light, but I want to try all these new lights because it's exciting for me to try new stuff. If that's your reasoning for why you did it, then, okay, cool. But if you're doing this to make money, I think it's just stupid.

• 1:02:34Shaan Puri?

  It's not to make money, per se. It's to do two things. This is kind of what I told him. He was like, oh, okay, that makes sense. He goes, oh, if you're not risking like, you know, substantial part of your net worth on this, okay, that makes sense. And B, he goes, I think it's great that you're playing with DeFi because I think this is sort of the most untold story in technology today, is what's going on in the world of DeFi. And then he goes, you know, the thing I always tell people, and this seems like what you're doing is, look, you need to go learn it. Like, people will ask me, oh, what book do you recommend? And he's like, dude, you should just go pick up the book and go read a few chapters of it and see what you think about it. And same thing with all these different, oh, no-code tools or cryptocurrency. Like, the way to learn is to go put some skin in the game, try to actually use the tools.

• 1:03:19Shaan Puri?

  That'll teach you about their shortcomings. That'll teach you what's cool about it. Watch a whole bunch of videos, lose a little bit of money, make a little bit of money. And, you know, the actual learning of being on the forefront of technology will pay itself off multiple. And he's like, it sounds to me actually that that's what you're doing, is you're trying to live on the edge of technology so that you actually are, you know, learning at a faster rate than somebody who's sitting on the sidelines and will wait to hear it told.

• 1:03:43Sam Parr?

  And I was like, yeah, exactly. Which is, you're doing this for fun.

• 1:03:47Shaan Puri?

  I'm not doing it exactly for fun. I'm doing it to learn. And also, I, from what I understand right now, like, these are not just learning and like, well, most people think about learning. You know, you go buy a thing, you're not, you're never going to get your money back. You're just going to get the learning. This is where you're going to get the learning and you might make money, right? There's no book that's like that where you go buy the book for $20, you have no chance of getting $32 back out of it. You're trying to get the information and then go do something else with that. In this case, I'm going to get the learning by actually using the tools and I might make money. And because the assets themselves, Ethereum might go up, or I might, then my startups might actually appreciate and value that sort of thing. So I believe it's a sort of a parlay.

• 1:04:28Sam Parr?

  I think. Like I am, I, that, what you just described is so complicated. I don't even know how to, like, I, I just, it's so out of my element. It, it'd be like you speak, it'd be like, what, what don't you, it's like, what don't you understand? It's like, well, I don't, I don't speak Spanish. I don't know. I mean, I don't even know what I don't know. Like, I just, I can't. Like, when someone talks to me about certain stuff, I'm like, you just spoke French.

• 1:04:54Shaan Puri?

  Right. Yeah, we might need to edit this out of the podcast. This might just have been too convoluted for anyone to even understand. But the thing I would say is, like, the way you're confused, I was confused the first time Furcon told me, and then I spent one week just trying to learn all these tools. I put literally fifty dollars into a MetaMask account and then Compound Finance, and I did a trade. I tried to see, how does this all work?

• 1:05:13Sam Parr?

  Oh, my God. So you're doing it again. Dude, like-

• 1:05:15Shaan Puri?

  What I'm saying is, it took me a week to get to where I am now, and I'm still, like, total beginner, but, like, you know-

• 1:05:22Sam Parr?

  I don't even know what, like, futures are, or like, when people talk about options and, like, shorting a stock, I'm like, I just don't know what that means.

• 1:05:30Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I'm very, I'm very similar, but, I don't know. Now I've taken the opinion that, uh, every time I didn't know what these things meant, it's cost me money. I remember when I was first being told about Bitcoin and I didn't take the time to go figure out what the hell this is, it cost me money because I was behind. Furcon bought Ethereum at the ICO, at seventeen dollars, and so, you know, he's doing all this with, you know, he's, he's already made fifty X, twenty X on his investment, and so, you know, he's doing all this-

• 1:05:55Sam Parr?

  I get that. I get that, and it's, if that interests you, and that's what you want to be an expert in, then you should do that. I just think that I'm better at other stuff, and I can make fifty X on a bunch of shit.

• 1:06:06Shaan Puri?

  Uh, I would correct one thing. I'm not trying to be an expert at it, and I'm not, I don't even think that's the goal. I don't even think that would be the right goal. Um, the goal is to just get a basic understanding and a fundamental understanding of it, so that I could be aware as this evolves, because this is where a lot of growth is gonna happen. I know that. I know that this is where a lot of growth is gonna happen, and so, I would rather be able to at least speak the language and understand it at a very basic level, than just be completely ignorant to it, because, you know, uh, you know, I just, it's hard.

• 1:06:38Sam Parr?

  I wonder what the listeners are gonna say.

• 1:06:39Shaan Puri?

  So tell me this, where do you think you can make 50X your money?

• 1:06:43Sam Parr?

  Um, I can just say, what?

• 1:06:46Shaan Puri?

  Not Marriott.

• 1:06:48Sam Parr?

  I can't make 50, I probably, I can make 50X if I get incredibly lucky in investing in a startup, but that's incredibly unlikely, but

• 1:06:57Shaan Puri?

  Something you understand.

• 1:06:58Sam Parr?

  It's I kinda, but what I for sure can do is create like a creative business. I can create a course, I can create, I could do some type of internet marketing thing that I can make a lot of money.

• 1:07:09Shaan Puri?

  Sure.

• 1:07:10Sam Parr?

  Um, I could just say, I'm available, I charge a thousand dollars an hour and I'll do copywriting. I could, that's not 50X because it's my time, so there, so that's not like, that's not like, I mean, I can make hundreds of thousands, probably millions of dollars a year, just doing like consulting, I think.

• 1:07:27Shaan Puri?

  But how much are you gonna learn doing that, right? Like

• 1:07:30Sam Parr?

  And I, and I wouldn't enjoy it, I would not enjoy it, I would not learn, I mean, maybe I would learn, I would learn something.

• 1:07:35Shaan Puri?

  To me, that's cashing in your mastery chips, that's saying, I'm the teacher and I'll teach at a certain rate.

• 1:07:40Sam Parr?

  Yes.

• 1:07:40Shaan Puri?

  And I'm just much more interested in being in the student chair than the teacher's chair, right? So like, how do I, I don't want to be a master selling mastery chips, I want to be a beginner buying beginner chips.

• 1:07:50Sam Parr?

  I agree, what you're saying just doesn't interest me, that's why I don't care.

• 1:07:54Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, this topic might just be dry and boring.

• 1:07:57Sam Parr?

  Um, I don't, let's have the listeners tell us if they think it's dry and boring, I don't know, I don't, I think a lot of people are interested in it.

• 1:08:04Shaan Puri?

  I think a lot of people are gonna feel the way you felt and the way I felt the first time I heard this, which was like, oh my God, like, this sounds interesting, but I just don't even understand what's actually happening here. And uh, maybe I'll do like a breakdown of like

• 1:08:16Sam Parr?

  Sometimes when you talk about this stuff, I feel like self-conscious, I'm like, oh my God, I am just not smart.

• 1:08:24Shaan Puri?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:25Sam Parr?

  I'm like, is, like, whenever people talk about like options, I'm like

• 1:08:29Shaan Puri?

  In fact, that actually happened to me, so when I was talking to Devol, so this is actually a good example, right? Talking to a guy who I respect, I actually care what this guy thinks about me, in reality, he doesn't even know me, he probably forgot me already today, right? But I had been listening to this guy's podcast, reading his books, followed his company for years, so I cared, I cared about what this, that this guy, if this guy liked me, I would feel good about it, if he disliked me, I feel bad about it. So as I'm telling him this trade and he's telling me I'm insane, uh, then he's like, hold on, so walk me through this, how, how does this work? And now he's actually smart enough to understand it, he didn't, he hadn't thought of this before, but he was like, he would get it as I was explaining it. Now, I only half understand what I'm doing. So I'm half explaining my half understanding to this guy. And he's like, okay, so it's like a, you know, a short dated option trade with a highly liquid.

• 1:09:13Shaan Puri?

  And he's saying all these terms and I'm like, um, yeah, that's one way to put it. Now, in reality, I don't know if his understanding is correct because I barely.

• 1:09:20Sam Parr?

  That's how some people describe it.

• 1:09:22Shaan Puri?

  Yeah, I was like, you know, that's one way to think about it, but here's what I'm thinking. And I was just trying to pivot it, but in reality, he was like, so wait, what would happen if this, this and this scenario happened? I was like, I got no clue. And so I looked like a total dipshit in front of, you know, this guy who I cared about. And then whoever else was in the room. But at the same time, like, I don't know, like, that's the, that's the position to be in. It's like beyond the edge of like, you know, I, I think there's all these books that are, they talk about how do you get better? How do you actually learn? It's like, if you're too far in your comfort zone, you learn nothing. If you're too far out of your comfort zone, you also learn nothing. The, the secret of people who get great at something is that they sit right on the boundary where they're pushed beyond what they know, but not so far beyond where they drown. And that's how I, I, I try to feel about all this stuff.

• 1:10:07Shaan Puri?

  And if you're trying to learn about this, like, you might feel like you're drowning today. So just go find a level where, you know, you're on that edge of your comfort zone and you're.

• 1:10:14Sam Parr?

  I'm definitely going to be curious to see what the people have to say.

• 1:10:19Shaan Puri?

  Okay, cool. Let us know what you think. Um, we got some feedback on our very random episode. A couple of people liked it.

• 1:10:24Sam Parr?

  Was it bad or good?

• 1:10:26Shaan Puri?

  Um, it was mostly, uh, it was split. So basically there, there was more people saying good things, but I think that's because we kind of fished for a compliment. And then the, the other side, there was a few people were like, hey, just so you know, this last episode was very meandering.

• 1:10:40Sam Parr?

  Okay. So the mobile do is on Thursday, we'll, on Thursday, we'll come prepared with loads of stuff to bang out.

• 1:10:46Shaan Puri?

  Here's what people loved. They loved your bee keeping story and they loved my reaction to it. Like literally got texts being like, yo, I haven't laughed this hard at a podcast, you know, business, like a non comedy podcast ever.

• 1:10:58Sam Parr?

  Who said they liked the bee story?

• 1:11:00Shaan Puri?

  But I have, I got two texts today about it. I got one text from my friend, Mike, literally right before we went live. And he goes, uh, what did he say? He goes, Sam talking about bees and you laughing was my favorite moment of the podcast.

• 1:11:11Sam Parr?

  Wait, what, what, what did you laugh at? I don't even remember.

• 1:11:14Shaan Puri?

  Just when you told me you were a beekeeper. I was like, what the fuck? And then you started explaining it and it made no sense to me. You know how you were like, dude, I'm not interested in DeFi. I'm not interested in beekeeping, but you clearly are. And it was that, it was the same dynamic.

• 1:11:27Sam Parr?

  So we're going to come with a lot of meat next episode. I personally will come and I'm sure you will too.

• 1:11:33Shaan Puri?

  Okay, cool. All right. So yeah, we're out.