Birthright Citizenship + Bye-Bye, Pamela Jo Bondi

Last week saw oral arguments in the birthright citizenship case, Trump v. Barbara, and listeners, it finally happened: a legal argument so outlandish from the Trump administration that even this Court will have to rule against him. Leah and Melissa break down the back-and-forth and explain why this case will give SCOTUS credibility it doesn’t deserve. They also cover the President’s firing of the blonde with the binders, Pamela Jo Bondi–pouring one out for her chaotic, destructive reign at the Department of Justice. Favorite things: Leah: The Birthright Con https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/01/opinion/birthright-citizenship-supreme-court-14th-amendment.html, Jamelle Bouie (NYT); WNBA Players Had an Ace Up Their Sleeve in Pay Negotiations: A Nobel Laureate https://www.wsj.com/economy/wnba-players-had-an-ace-up-their-sleeve-in-pay-negotiations-a-nobel-laureate-c5040a28, Rachel Bachman & Justin Lahart (WSJ) Melissa: Parents as Regulators https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6424678 by Caitlin Millat, forthcoming in UCLA L. Rev.; Harlem Rhapsody https://bookshop.org/p/books/harlem-rhapsody-victoria-christopher-murray/07d780e424ef68a2?ean=9780593638484&next=t, Victoria Christopher Murray; My Boo Buddies https://www.myboobuddies.com/; Artemis II https://www.ms.now/the-beat-with-ari/watch/nasa-s-artemis-ii-launches-astronauts-on-historic-mission-around-the-moon-2494766659649 Vote for us in the Webbys https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2026/podcasts/shows/news-politics! Preorder Melissa’s book, The U. S. Constitution: A Comprehensive and Annotated Guide for the Modern Reader https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-constitution-annotated-for-the-contemporary-reader-melissa-murray/8e7f0dfa472fc3ca?ean=9781668221938&next=t&Preorder a signed paperback of Leah’s book, Lawless, here https://literatibookstore.com/book/signedlawless. Follow us onInstagram https://www.instagram.com/strictscrutinypodcast/?hl=en,Threads https://www.threads.net/@strictscrutinypodcast, andBluesky https://bsky.app/profile/strictscrutiny.bsky.social

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:04Speaker 05

  Mr. Chief Justice, if please, the Court.

• 1:08Speaker 05

  It's an old joke, but when a hardy man argues against two beautiful ladies like this, they're going to have the last word.

• 1:16Speaker 06

  She spoke not elegantly, but with unmistakable clarity. She said, "I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks."

• 1:46Leah Litman?

  Hello and welcome back to Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the awesome Supreme Court that is going to save the country. JK, those are my safe words and also how you would know if I was in a hostage video. We are your hosts for today. I'm Leah Edman.

• 2:00Melissa Murray?

  And I'm Melissa Murray. And what this actually is, is Strict Scrutiny, your podcast about the Supreme Court and the legal culture that surrounds it. Put differently, we are a podcast that is not going to cave to the trend of insisting that the Supreme Court is reasonable now that it seems like some of the justices can read the constitutional text. Of the 14th Amendment and therefore are capable of immediately recognizing that the president's executive order rescinding birthright citizenship for the American-born children of certain non-citizens is in fact blatantly unconstitutional and should be burned with hot fire.

• 2:35Leah Litman?

  They got there eventually, or they might.

• 2:38Melissa Murray?

  Eventually.

• 2:39Leah Litman?

  Exactly. We'll talk about that. But a court that can only read sometimes, and on April Fool's Day no less, might not be that great a court, is the perspective we will be offering. So as you might have surmised, it's just me and Melissa today, which is why we're already at a 15. Kate is out. She said she was interviewing for a high-level post at the Department of Justice. JK, that's a late April Fool's joke. You know they'll never nominate another woman to that post, or maybe any. Anyways, because it's just the two of us, we are going to be wilding out, so get ready. My local independent coffee shop actually just released their seasonal flavor, and it's a root beer float latte.

• 3:19Melissa Murray?

  Oh, hey.

• 3:20Leah Litman?

  And I just get the root beer added to my chai. So I am just going to be on this sugar high for the next few months, and I can't wait. It's been a great week. We're going to start by recapping oral arguments that happened last week, focusing on birthright citizenship, and then we are going to cover the bonanza of legal news, including saying goodbye to our girl Pamela Jo Bondi.

• 3:44Melissa Murray?

  New nickname.

• 3:45Leah Litman?

  Girl Bye.

• 3:46Melissa Murray?

  No, Pamela No-Bondi.

• 3:49Leah Litman?

  Pamela No-Job-Bondi.

• 3:51Melissa Murray?

  That part.

• 3:54Leah Litman?

  We're going to have a few of those.

• 3:55Melissa Murray?

  We're trying not to be petty, but it's hard. It's real hard.

• 3:59Leah Litman?

  I'm not trying.

• 4:00Melissa Murray?

  No. I was trying. I'm going to have to be the Kate here, and I'm trying not to be petty, but again, it's really, really hard. And anyway, first up, the birthright citizenship.

• 4:11Leah Litman?

  We learned that the justices can do hard things this week, Melissa.

• 4:13Melissa Murray?

  We did.

• 4:14Leah Litman?

  So you can too.

• 4:15Melissa Murray?

  We did, reading. Okay. Exactly. So, first up, the birthright citizenship argument in Trump versus Barbara. This was a challenge to the president's executive order denying the constitutional right of birthright citizenship to children born to certain non-citizens, namely undocumented immigrants and individuals who are here in the United States on temporary visa statuses. We are going to first provide some context. And by that, I mean, we are going to give you some of the milieu of the immediate run up to the argument. Then we're going to give our high level overview and top lines of the argument. And then we're going to give you a summary of the cast of characters and all of the quote unquote fuck shit that happened during this argument.

• 5:00Melissa Murray?

  And there was a lot of it.

• 5:02Leah Litman?

  Oh, yeah. So, the lead up. The president announced that he would be attending this argument, and he didn't taco out this time. I was curious if he was thinking, I can mog Neil Gorsuch, but he also apparently brought Pamela Jo Bondi with him and told her on the way to the argument that she was no longer going to have a job.

• 5:24Melissa Murray?

  Okay, so this is so delicious to me because can you imagine getting fired in the beast on your way to the Supreme Court and then having to sit in oral argument, watching John Sauer make an absolute mash of his job, knowing you don't have a job? Like, imagine that.

• 5:40Leah Litman?

  It's a perpetual reminder that the misogynist will never accept failure among women, only men.

• 5:47Melissa Murray?

  Like trad wives. I don't care how much homemade Coca-Cola you make for your husbands. This is not the way. Not the way.

• 5:54Leah Litman?

  No, no. But this was actually the first time a sitting president attended a Supreme Court argument as a sitting president. And I personally love the specter of Trump making this argument a clown show and staring down the justices who just deserve the entire clown show that they helped create. And I hope they were annoyed AF.

• 6:15Melissa Murray?

  This is literally like if Frankenstein's monster just showed up in Frankenstein's lab and had a seat and was like, what you doing? What you making?

• 6:23Leah Litman?

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 6:26Leah Litman?

  Um, now Trump reportedly left the argument shortly after the Solicitor General's appearance as Cecilia Wang, who was arguing for the plaintiffs, began. Unclear if the president was bored, unclear if he just couldn't stand a woman of color explaining why he was wrong, or if even he could perceive that BLM, Amy and Brett, and not Arland Neal showed up and he knew it was over for the executive order.

• 6:52Melissa Murray?

  Not BLM, Amy.

• 6:53Leah Litman?

  Again, I'm already a 16 girl.

• 6:54Melissa Murray?

  Wow. All right, so let's get to high level predictions and thoughts about the argument before we take attendance at what was the best clown show I've seen in some time. So first of all, it is clear, thankfully, that the president is going to lose this case because he should, because reading is fundamental and this executive order is blatantly unlawful and it will be declared unlawful and killed with hot fire and will not go into effect. What is not clear is whether the president will lose this case unanimously, which should be the case because this is so fucking unconstitutional. Like, everyone should just be like, yeah, you can't do that.

• 7:37Melissa Murray?

  But no, it seems likely here that the president will get a vote, maybe more, but definitely one, we think. And that single vote, I will just say right here, is an actual travesty and a stain on the rule of law. And if you're wondering, who does that remind me of? And you're saying Samuel Alito? Listener, you are correct. But leaving aside the fact that Samuel Alito is likely to vote for this clown show of an executive order, the outcome of the case at least seems clear. That being said, even when the president loses, he succeeds in some capacity. That's sort of a hallmark of his whole presidency, one and two.

• 8:20Melissa Murray?

  This president has been so successful in unsettling and politicizing what is a bedrock constitutional principle, this idea of birthright citizenship. So just to be very clear here, These fringe conservatives took an off-the-wall theory that was cooked up by John Eastman in a meth lab of conservative grievance, and that just 10 years ago would have been regarded by almost everyone who could read as the province of kooks and cranks. And yet, these fringe conservatives managed to husband it into an on-the-wall theory that just got a full airing at the highest court in the land as though it were a normal thing.

• 9:03Leah Litman?

  Oh, by the way, the guy who originated the theory?

• 9:06Melissa Murray?

  Disbarred. Yeah, disbarred, John Eastman. Yes, so, I mean, we're doing, only the best people are on this case. And they husbanded it into an on-the-wall theory that the Supreme Court literally took seriously. And in doing so, the president and his minions have not only unsettled this idea that was bedrock, they've now invited more attacks on birthright citizenship and the children of immigrants who would likely claim it. They've unsettled the law, even if they haven't actually succeeded in changing it. And they've basically made the world safe for what J.D. Vance calls heritage Americans, which is to say that it means the world is no longer

• 9:49Melissa Murray?

  really safe for multiracial democracy and the rule of law. And that is probably the point of all of this.

• 9:56Leah Litman?

  Yeah. It was also a little rich for me to hear the justices at various points during the argument sound almost indignant and self-righteous in their skeptical questioning of the federal government. Yes, I'm looking at you, Neil Gorsuch. When time and time again, they have embraced ridiculous arguments. They have bent the law to enable this president. And so, yeah, he's out of control and lawless. Care to look in the mirror, my guys. And we should also note that it is an absolute choice for the court to hear this case at all. They didn't have to do that. They could have disposed of it last term when they resolved the issue of nationwide injunctions, again, in a case involving the birthright citizenship executive order, and just then ruled on the merits as the plaintiffs in that case asked them to do,

• 10:38Leah Litman?

  as the three Democratic appointees did, see the 14th Amendment. And the Republican appointees didn't do that, so they invited this face-eating leopard circus show into their house and our constitutional democracy.

• 10:50Melissa Murray?

  A few more beats on that. Again, this isn't just about the president and John Eastman and this cockamamie, ridiculous, crap-tastic theory of the 14th amendment. It's also about this court that literally uses its control over its docket to percolate ideas that are genuinely fucked up.

• 11:12Leah Litman?

  Play footsie with fascists.

• 11:13Melissa Murray?

  Yeah, genuinely fucked up. They could have decided this last term. They could have gotten rid of this with a very spare opinion, like, nope, wrong, move along.

• 11:23Leah Litman?

  No.

• 11:23Melissa Murray?

  No. They let it sit out there. The whole substantive questions just sat out there. Then they're like, you know what? Is this the 14th amendment? And then they decided to grant cert. And then they like, put it for like, April 1st. So, you know, as far as they could get from it.

• 11:39Leah Litman?

  Joke's on us.

• 11:39Melissa Murray?

  Joke's on us. And they let it percolate. So we've literally spent four months talking about whether this bullshit theory is in fact a real thing. And i- it's like Pinocchio. We just asked if a ruler is a real boy for four months and...

• 11:56Leah Litman?

  Do we have a real constitution?

• 11:58Melissa Murray?

  Probably not. So they're part of the problem here. Like, I mean, the way they manage their docket, the way they choose to answer things on the timeline. I mean, we saw this with Trump versus the United States and how they dillyed and dithered on that. And then, oh, no, we can't have a trial. I guess we'll have to decide this. Oh, well, I guess we'll have to give the president complete immunity. And here we are. So they're part of this. They're complicit in this ridiculousness.

• 12:22Leah Litman?

  Yeah. I think bottom line, you know, Mike Dorff, a professor at Cornell, said it best, echoing points we've raised before. You know, what he said is, this case is a gift to the Supreme Court. By rejecting an outlandish position, it will earn credibility as apolitical, even as the Overton window moves far to the right.

• 12:40Melissa Murray?

  Let's just remember that they're the ones that helped open this fucking window and then put like, a stack of books to keep it open. Yeah. All right. Because we've already discussed how ridiculous the argument in favor of the executive order is, was, let's actually just delve into it and let it all hang out. The text of the 14th Amendment, I can tell you, is as follows.

• 13:04Leah Litman?

  Melissa is holding up a copy of her book. She literally wrote a book on the Constitution so she can tell you the US Constitution, A Comprehensive and Annotated Guide for the Modern Reader.

• 13:14Melissa Murray?

  And it is coming out on May 5th. I can tell you, because I've written this book, that the text of the 14th Amendment reads as follows. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside." Does that sound simple to you? Sounds simple to me.

• 13:35Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 13:35Melissa Murray?

  Because it's simple. It's pretty straightforward. The Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment responds to the Supreme Court's 1857 decision in Dred Scott versus Stanford, where the court infamously held that persons who are descended from the enslaved could never be citizens. And the court's reasoning, of course, was racist and rooted in ideas about who is fit to be a citizen, who is deserving, and who is an American. The 14th Amendment, the whole point of the 14th Amendment is to reject that vision of selective citizenship in favor of a clear rule of birthright citizenship. What had actually been the default rule in the Anglo-American legal tradition, which had been adopted by the colonists at the founding and was the prevailing norm until

• 14:20Melissa Murray?

  the Supreme Court, in the racist screed that is called Dred Scott, decided to depart from it. How's that for originalism, Leah?

• 14:27Leah Litman?

  Is this originalism, Guy in the Butterfly meme says? You know, in some ways, like, this is the original originalism.

• 14:35Melissa Murray?

  It is. Not this fake fucked up originalism that John Sauer was peddling. Anyway, so, the TLDR was, we had birthright citizenship at the start. Dred Scott was like, hey, let me do a little racism and fuck this up. And then the 14th Amendment was like, let's go back to the originalism part and just have a general grant of birthright citizenship to anyone born. In the United States, the Supreme Court later confirmed that principle of broad birthright citizenship in its 1898 decision Wong Kim Ark, which held that an individual who was born to non-citizens, that is, people who are not eligible to be citizens, people who were prohibited from becoming citizens because of the Chinese Exclusion Act, because we are still doing a little light racism, that their child, despite all of these exclusions,

• 15:19Melissa Murray?

  because he was born in the United States, was a citizen by birth.

• 15:23Leah Litman?

  At the beginning of the oral argument in Trump versus Barbara, Justice Sotomayor quoted from the drafting history of the 14th Amendment and included specific comments made by people debating the amendment that acknowledged the amendment would grant citizenship to children of non-citizens, immigrants, including Chinese nationals, who were vilified at the time and now by the current president.

• 15:44Melissa Murray?

  The practical consequences of the federal government's position would also be absolutely outlandish and untenable, and this is something we covered in last week's episode, but it was, again, so outlandish and so untenable that Justice Jackson felt compelled to unpack it on the floor of the Supreme Court. So this all came out in a very revealing colloquy with Solicitor General John Sauer, who may not know what it's like to give birth and what happens after you give birth and what you might be capable of doing just after you give birth.

• 16:20Speaker 09

  So we bringing pregnant women in for depositions? What are we doing to figure this out?

• 16:26Melissa Murray?

  Yeah. I'm not trying to have a deposition after pushing a baby out, sorry, or having my stomach cut and having a baby pulled out. Like, no one's wanting a deposition. Like, how does this actually work? Like, have you ghouls actually thought through this? Like, genuinely?

• 16:41Leah Litman?

  Unclear.

• 16:42Melissa Murray?

  I mean, like, you're sitting here telling me that the Strait of Hormuz is going to open naturally, but you have no fucking idea what natural childbirth looks like. Like, give me a break. Anyway, as should be clear, hospitals are not really equipped to determine citizenship. People are not equipped to prove their citizenship when they go to the hospital to give birth. And Solicitor General John Sauer's response is basically, eh. You can just sue the federal government to establish your baby's citizenship after they're born, and they deny your baby's citizenship. So, yes, it's up to you to get yourself a lawyer, launch a case, get it all sorted out. And maybe after about a year and a half or so, you'll get an actual answer on this. No big deal, though. Not a big deal at all.

• 17:25Leah Litman?

  Yeah, just more disdain for pregnant people. And in the interim, before you get that determination, is the federal government going to be trying to or succeed in deporting you and/or your baby? It's just cruel. And that's the point exactly.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  In business, there's the easy way with Staples or the hard way. Hard means

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Jen, did you get the weekend specials menus from the printer by any chance?

• 17:53Speaker 10

  No, they said they'll be done on Monday.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  But they're weekend specials.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  Easy means Staples same-day custom printing, where same day means same day. Hard means

• 18:01Speaker 03

  Our new brochures are back from the print place.

• 18:03Speaker 04

  So how do they look?

• 18:04Speaker 03

  Well, our logo is brown.

• 18:06Speaker 04

  But our logo isn't brown.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  It is now.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  Easy means custom prints, perfectly printed. Don't choose hard. Choose Staples. That was easy. Shop Staples online, in-store, in the app. In business, there's the easy way with Staples or the hard way. Hard means

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Jen, did you get the weekend specials menus from the printer by any chance?

• 18:23Speaker 10

  No, they said they'll be done on Monday.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  But they're weekend specials.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Easy means Staples same-day custom printing, where same day means same day. Hard means

• 18:32Speaker 03

  Our new brochures are back from the print place.

• 18:34Speaker 04

  So how do they look?

• 18:35Speaker 03

  Well, our logo is brown.

• 18:37Speaker 04

  But our logo isn't brown.

• 18:39Speaker 03

  It is now.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  Easy means custom prints, perfectly printed. Don't choose hard. Choose Staples. That was easy. Shop Staples online, in-store, in the app.

• 18:49Leah Litman?

  We are now going to shift to explaining the vote count and why every justice, say for Sam Alito, and maybe also Clarence Thomas, although that was less clear to me.

• 18:58Melissa Murray?

  Hard to pin him down.

• 18:59Leah Litman?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 18:59Melissa Murray?

  Yeah.

• 19:00Leah Litman?

  Made clear that they can read and that the 14th Amendment says what it says. We're going to start out with the textually and literarily challenged Samuel Alito, who opened his remarks by positing to John Sauer that because unauthorized illegal immigration didn't

• 19:16Melissa Murray?

  At the time of the 14th amendment, the 14th amendment couldn't possibly have anything to say about the citizenship of children, of people without legal status. That question, of course, was an attempt to offer a framework for him, that is Alito, to say, well, because things have changed, I can just do whatever we want. Basically, living constitutionalism for the win, says the guy who has a forthcoming book coming out about how he's an originalist, offering an originalist perspective on the US Constitution, the court, and the country, of course. Also, Justice Alito, I'd like to introduce you to the Second Amendment, because I am pretty sure that when the Second Amendment was ratified, they didn't have machine guns or assault rifles. And we can make these same arguments.

• 19:59Melissa Murray?

  In fact, we do make these same arguments, and you always literally shoot them down. Get it? I made a pun there. Ha ha. Pew pew. Pew pew. And yet, Justice Alito still insists that the Second Amendment has something to say about machine guns and assault rifles. But, you know, whatever. Let's just try to be consistent. Like, if you're gonna do it, just be consistent. But no. He's not trying. Later in the argument, the Chief Justice kind of got in on this as well. He had an exchange with Solicitor General Sauer that pointedly responded to the administration's selective embrace of living constitutionalism in this case. So let's roll that clip.

• 20:38Speaker 11

  No, but of course, we're in a new world now, as Justice Alito pointed out, too, where 8 billion people are one plane ride away from having a child who's a US citizen. Well, it's a new world. It's the same Constitution.

• 20:48Melissa Murray?

  All right. I'm just gonna say, this line has been quoted so much, I actually hate it. Yes. He's going to get, he, by he, I mean the Chief Justice, is going to be credited with being wonderfully principled and institutionally minded, and wow, what amazing perspective and insight. We should be so thankful that he is on the court.

• 21:11Leah Litman?

  Don't buy this, right? Like, I'm 100% sure John Roberts practiced this quip in the mirror before he got to work that morning. And again, like, they have allowed this administration to put this on-

• 21:26Melissa Murray?

  He's the author of the immunity opinion.

• 21:28Leah Litman?

  I mean, like-

• 21:28Melissa Murray?

  Say it again. He's the author of the immunity opinion, which has midwifed this administration. He allowed this case to percolate for months, and now it's here. And then he's gonna be like, "It's the same U-Consta-" It's, it's the same Constitution. Yes, sir, it's the same Constitution. And we could have said that literally last year. We could have done this last year.

• 21:50Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Melissa Murray?

  So, no, I don't buy this.

• 21:53Leah Litman?

  No. But back to Sam Alito, whose claims that, "Well, things have changed, so birthright citizenship ain't no thing," led him to talk about microwave ovens, which is how you know he really had a great argument. Alito also offered a pretty dubious interpretation of the Supreme Court's decision in Wong Kim Ark. Even though reading is fundamental, Sam is not really into fundamental rights, so this all tracks. And Alito read Wong Kim Ark and said, "Aha, Wong Kim Ark recognized some exceptions to the rule of birthright citizenship, such as in cases for the children of foreign ambassadors or invading armies." And then from these exceptions, Alito insisted there is some broader rule that renders ineligible the children of all persons who have some allegiance to or association with a foreign

• 22:37Leah Litman?

  power, but one, that's not what the 14th Amendment says; two, that would make the exceptions to the rule rather than the rule, the rule, and the rule's birthright citizenship; and three, there's just no indication that Wong Kim Ark was stating those exceptions as indicative of some broader, more general rule about the meaning of subject to the jurisdiction thereof.

• 22:56Melissa Murray?

  I actually thought Cecilia Wang, who argued for the ACLU and the immigrant plaintiffs, had the most sick burn. It was very subtle, but I thought it was great. So Justice Alito, his specific hypothetical was about the child born to a member of an Iranian sleeper cell.

• 23:15Melissa Murray?

  Fucking crazy. You're like, sir, whoa. And he was basically saying, you know, this is a child who, whose parents have allegiances to Iran will likely have to serve in the Iranian army when he grows up. And that was never intended to be a citizen from birth of the United States. And Cecilia Wang weighed in to say, well, you know, if that's the measure, any immigrant obviously has these ties to the country from which they came. Do we presume that that allegiance extends to their children? We've never said that. And in fact, if we had, we would be precluding the children of Irish immigrants and, wait for it, Italian immigrants from being citizens. Like, boy, you better watch out.

• 24:00Melissa Murray?

  We're coming for you, too. Like, I thought that was actually masterful on her part.

• 24:05Leah Litman?

  That was giving very a time to kill for me when the lawyer asked the jury to remember the horrific crime committed against the defendant's daughter, who was black. And then the lawyer asked the jury, now imagine the girl was white. And, you know, Cecilia tried to play that exercise with Sam Alito, and it didn't work. He just seemed unmoved.

• 24:23Melissa Murray?

  Again, just the abandonment of not just originalism, but textualism. Like, we're just going to pretend that the word jurisdiction actually means allegiance? Or just make a whole new word?

• 24:32Leah Litman?

  Why not?

• 24:33Melissa Murray?

  People, again, these conservatives have for years acted like progressives just read what they want to into the Constitution. It's not us. We're not the ones doing it.

• 24:43Leah Litman?

  No.

• 24:43Melissa Murray?

  Not us.

• 24:44Leah Litman?

  No.

• 24:45Melissa Murray?

  No. Yeah. Anyway. Other justices had very different takes on Wong Kim Ark. So when the Solicitor General, who is arguing against birthright citizenship, attempted to invoke Wong Kim Ark, Justice Gorsuch had this to say.

• 24:59Speaker 11

  I would first cite Wong Kim Ark on that point because Wong Kim Ark says you're...

• 25:04Speaker 12

  Well, I'm not sure how much you want to rely on Wong Kim Ark.

• 25:07Leah Litman?

  Neil Gorsuch has drag queen level bitchiness and pettiness, and I just wish he would deploy it better.

• 25:13Melissa Murray?

  Use it for good, not evil.

• 25:15Leah Litman?

  I know. In addition to the clip you introduced, I'm also thinking of this exchange where he's just dripping with disdain.

• 25:22Speaker 12

  But that's 1898. Now I'm looking at 1868. You're telling me is when I should look in the test for domicile. And the stuff you have about unlawfully present, it's like Roman law sources you're going to.

• 25:34Leah Litman?

  Again, sometimes the pettiness just hits.

• 25:38Melissa Murray?

  And even Brett Kavanaugh's brains seemed to grasp that Wong Kim Ark meant something other than what the federal government was saying it did. And he seemed to be on the hunt for a way to make this case easy enough that even he could write it, as you can hear here.

• 25:53Speaker 13

  You mentioned this in your opening, that if we agree with you on how to read Wong Kim Ark, then you win. So that could be a, if we did agree with you on Wong Kim Ark, that could be just a short opinion, right? That says the better reading is respondent's reading. Government doesn't ask us to overrule, affirmed?

• 26:14Melissa Murray?

  Yes.

• 26:15Speaker 13

  That's that.

• 26:16Melissa Murray?

  Justice Kagan, as is her want, decided to take Solicitor General John Sauer for a dog walk on Wong Kim Ark. She pointed out how people have, for generations, understood Wong Kim Ark to cement birthright citizenship. And she then asked Sauer what, quote, "magnitude of evidence we would need to see in order to accept this revisionist theory and in order to change what I think people have thought was the rule for more than a century." I mean, ma'am, say it plain, say it loud. I mean, in response, John Sauer basically discombobulated and just started yelling at her, which was the perfect encapsulation

• 26:59Melissa Murray?

  of this administration's attitude and approach to the courts, the law, people with uteruses, just generally. I mean, let's have a listen.

• 27:10Speaker 11

  Senator Trumbull says, "I said not subject to any foreign power. I wanted to say born in the United States and, you know, owing allegiance to the United States, but I was aware that there's a, quote, 'a sort of allegiance from persons temporary resident in the United States whom we have no right to make citizens.'" So Senator Trumbull says, "The reason I haven't adopted the language and meaning that they say should be packed into these provisions is that everybody knows that the children of temporary visitors should not be citizens." Thank you, General.

• 27:40Melissa Murray?

  This was John Sauer's equivalent of "but the Dow." The Dow is at 50,000 for me. He saw Pam in the audience and he's like, "Yeah, I'm gonna do that."

• 27:50Speaker 02

  Game recognize game, girl.

• 27:52Melissa Murray?

  Exactly.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  But game has a job.

• 27:55Melissa Murray?

  Exactly.

• 27:58Leah Litman?

  So we wanted to take a bit, just in case you listened to the argument or have been, you know, reading coverage, or you want to hear a little bit more, to explain the domicile concept that was thrown out a bunch. So as we've said, the language of the 14th Amendment says, if you're born in the United States, you are a citizen. If you're subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. The federal government says, subject to the jurisdiction means your parents have allegiance to the United States. Note, the text doesn't say allegiance. Neither does it talk about parents, but whatever.

• 28:26Melissa Murray?

  Textualism.

• 28:27Leah Litman?

  Right, exactly. You know, the federal government then tries to distinguish Wong Kim Ark by saying that the parents of Wong Kim Ark were domiciled in the United States. They were residents permitted to be there. Note, there wasn't such a thing as unlawful status at the time. And the federal government says they were domiciled, permitted, intending to remain here and therefore were subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Even if they weren't citizens and were prohibited from becoming citizens, Wong Kim Ark does use, you know, domicile and domiciled several times in the opinion, likely because the parents in that case were domiciled here, but whatever. And also domicile can't mean, you know, owes allegiance to the United States because Wong Kim Ark's parents maintained an allegiance to China. They couldn't become United States citizens.

• 29:10Leah Litman?

  And they ultimately returned to China.

• 29:14Melissa Murray?

  And also textualism. It's not the same word.

• 29:16Leah Litman?

  And also textualism. And also, there's no indication, this is just reading. I'm not sure it's even textualism, that domicile was part of the rule or holding of Wong Kim Ark. And in addition to this, at the beginning of the argument, Justice Sotomayor quoted from the opinion in Wong Kim Ark, which had quoted Daniel Webster as saying, quote, "independently of a residence with intention to continue such residence, independently of any domiciliation, independently of the taking of any oath of allegiance or renouncing any former allegiance. It is well known that by the public law, a noncitizen, while he is here in the United States, owes obedience to this country's laws." And quote, shorter, Justice Sotomayor. Can you read? Unclear.

• 30:06Speaker 14

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• 30:51Speaker 14

  solution for all around the house. It does wonders for my kitchens, bathrooms, furniture, and even floors. So when my kids go all in, I say, go for it. Because I know I've got OxiClean to get the stains out. That's why they say it's not clean unless it's OxiClean.

• 31:07Speaker 00

  In business, there's the easy way with Staples or the hard way. Hard means-

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Jen, did you get the weekend specials menus from the printer by any chance?

• 31:14Speaker 02

  No, they said they'll be done on Monday.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  But they're weekend specials.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  Easy means Staples same-day custom printing, where same day means same day. Hard means-

• 31:22Speaker 03

  Our new brochures are back from the print place.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  So how do they look?

• 31:25Speaker 03

  Well, our logo is brown.

• 31:27Speaker 04

  But our logo isn't brown.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  It is now.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  Easy means custom prints, perfectly printed. Don't choose hard to Staples. That was easy. Shop Staples online in store in the app.

• 31:41Leah Litman?

  There's also just this huge glaring inconsistency in the federal government's position about how to determine what the word jurisdiction means. Because the Solicitor General maintains that the federal statutes that contain the same language as the 14th Amendment don't actually codify the Supreme Court's decision in Wong Kim Ark interpreting the 14th Amendment because the federal government says, well, those statutes use the language of the 14th Amendment. But at the same time, the federal government says that the 14th Amendment and the federal statute guaranteeing birthright citizenship actually mean the same thing as a different statute, the 1866 Civil Rights Act, which uses a different phrase, the phrase "not subject to any foreign power." So just to get this straight, words mean the same thing as other different words, but

• 32:26Leah Litman?

  they don't mean the same thing as the same words. Textualism.

• 32:31Melissa Murray?

  I mean, I'm sure Pam Bondi was listening to this and be like, I cannot believe that I just got fired in the beast and this motherfucker has a job. What?

• 32:41Leah Litman?

  I know.

• 32:42Melissa Murray?

  Absolutely not.

• 32:43Leah Litman?

  Yeah. Or, or she might have been listening to Sam Alito thinking, I can do this. Maybe he'll tap me for the Supreme Court.

• 32:49Melissa Murray?

  Girl, you're not getting tapped. You're going back to Florida for a life in the private sector.

• 32:53Leah Litman?

  I know.

• 32:54Melissa Murray?

  You don't even have a job at the Shield of the Americans.

• 32:59Melissa Murray?

  Whew. All right. So that's where justices Kagan and Sotomayor were. That's where the boys were. Justice Barrett also took a fair amount of time making her position on all of this very, very clear. She asked Solicitor General Sauer about how the government's theory that only people whose parents have allegiance to the United States are capable of having children who are born citizens of the United States, how that would have applied to the descendants of enslaved persons. And as she pointed out, people who were captured and enslaved often were brought forcefully to the United States and returned to the United States probably did not have much allegiance to the United States, can confirm.

• 33:44Melissa Murray?

  They may have wanted to escape, yet their children were still definitely citizens. As we said, Black Lives Matters Amy showed up for this argument and we applaud her. Okay. All lives matter. Not today. Black lives matter.

• 34:01Leah Litman?

  Not today.

• 34:02Melissa Murray?

  Yeah, exactly. Today. All of this to say, the three Democratic appointees are sane. They can read. So by now it should be clear that the vote count against the administration is at least seven against the administration with

• 34:17Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 34:17Melissa Murray?

  likely one vote for the administration. That would be Justice Alito. There's a wild card here, not surprisingly.

• 34:24Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 34:25Melissa Murray?

  And his name is Clarence Thomas.

• 34:27Leah Litman?

  Yes, and you know, I guess you kind of suggested you also found him hard to pin down. You know, on one hand, he sometimes seemed to be channeling an inclination to want to say something about how the 14th Amendment was just about the descendants of enslaved persons.

• 34:43Melissa Murray?

  So attractive to someone like him.

• 34:45Leah Litman?

  Exactly, exactly. You know, on the other hand, he seemed to ask more softballs of Cecilia Wang than John Sauer. Different people seem to have read him differently. I just could not get a read or have a sense about where I thought he was leading.

• 35:00Melissa Murray?

  He loves that kind of argument, going back to Reconstruction. He's done it before with the Second Amendment, like this whole idea that after the Civil War and during Reconstruction, African Americans were summarily disarmed and therefore you should have a robust Second Amendment because it would have protected them during this period. I can see why this lister general's argument would be so attractive to him, but it would also, I think fundamentally, raise questions about other aspects of the 14th Amendment that are, I think, are too troubling for him to contemplate, like too progressive for him to contemplate.

• 35:35Leah Litman?

  So wanted to know one other person who was at the oral argument, other than the President and now former Attorney General Pamela Jo Bondi, and that would be Norman Wong, a direct descendant of Wong Kim Ark, who told the press after the oral argument that, quote, "They," that is the justices, "will be shamed for history if they get this wrong."

• 35:55Melissa Murray?

  Samuel Alito is like, bet.

• 35:56Leah Litman?

  Right, exactly. Don't threaten me with a good time.

• 36:00Melissa Murray?

  Vergony!

• 36:01Leah Litman?

  Exactly.

• 36:05Melissa Murray?

  All right, bottom line, just to reiterate, the case should be nine to zero and a clear and simple reaffirmation of birthright citizenship. Actually, the case shouldn't have been heard at all. It should have been decided last year when they did that nationwide injunction, but you know, here we are. And the case, when it is actually decided, probably in the last day of this term, sometime just before July, that case, when it's decided, will be a gift to this Supreme Court. Because generally, anything that seems to be good for democracy probably isn't as good as it could be and is always a gift to the court. By rejecting this outlandish position, the court, as Mike Dorff says, will earn credibility

• 36:45Melissa Murray?

  as apolitical, even as it moves the Overton window far to the right.

• 36:51Leah Litman?

  Yes.

• 36:52Melissa Murray?

  Good job, guys.

• 36:53Leah Litman?

  Great job. So, the court heard oral argument in another case we also wanted to spend a little bit of time on, and that was in Pitchford versus Kane. The case is about a technical issue of federal habeas law, but the facts are quite simple and straightforward. So, the defendant, Mr. Pitchford, who was black, was convicted of, you know, basically a murder offense when he was 18. And during Mr. Pitchford's trial, the district attorney, Doug Evans, removed four black prospective jurors.

• 37:19Melissa Murray?

  Now, listeners, if you're like, Doug Evans? Why do I know that name? Where have I heard the name Doug Evans before? Well, listeners, you'll remember that Doug Evans was the prosecutor who brought you Flowers versus Mississippi, the Supreme Court case where BLM Brett Kavanaugh wrote an opinion concluding that the prosecutor, Doug Evans, had violated that sin, the restriction on removing jurors because of their race. In Flowers, the state tried the defendant multiple times, only to have multiple convictions reversed for prosecutorial misconduct. At the first two trials, the prosecution removed all of the black jurors. At the third and fourth trials, the state used all of its peremptory strikes against black jurors.

• 38:04Melissa Murray?

  And at the sixth trial, the one that the Supreme Court reviewed, the state of Mississippi exercised six peremptory strikes, five against black prospective jurors. And even this was too much for BLM Brett Kavanaugh, who wrote an opinion for seven justices, and it's not the seven that you're thinking of. And the opinion said, basically, yes, Mississippi, you did a racism. The two dissenters here were Clarence Thomas, no points for guessing that, and, wait for it, Neil Gorsuch. Right? So... Woo, Flowers versus Mississippi. That was a heady time. That was when we first started this podcast.

• 38:40Leah Litman?

  It was, it was. And yeah, those early days anyways. Back to Mr. Pitchford's case, though. So during the 2006 trial, the prosecutor, again Doug Evans, the artiste behind Flowers, removed for prospective black jurors and Mr. Pitchford's defense counsel objected. And the state court basically said, no, all good here, no Batsen problem. And then on appeal, the Mississippi Supreme Court ruled that the defendant had waived, i.e. agreed to forego the Batsen challenge, the one that trial counsel had raised during the trial, that the state court judge told trial counsel was, quote, "in the record" because reasons, and maybe in part because the trial judge who rejected the Batsen claim didn't really

• 39:23Leah Litman?

  apply the Batsen test. Anyways, here's the rub. If the state court is right, that defense counsel waived the objection in state court, then a federal court can't review that Batsen claim now that Mr. Pitchford's case is in federal habeas post-conviction review.

• 39:37Melissa Murray?

  The waiver argument here is kind of batshit. Not only did the state trial judge tell defense counsel her objection was in the record three times, and the argument seems to boil down to the fact that the defense counsel didn't use the magic word pretext, right? The Supreme Court has established a three-part test for Batsen claims. So the first part of the test is that the defense counsel has to object. Check. Then the prosecutor has to offer a race-neutral explanation, and then the court has to determine if the race-neutral explanation that the prosecutor has offered is actually pretextual, i.e. fake, and in fact, the prosecutor actually relied on race in striking the juror. The

• 40:19Melissa Murray?

  waiver argument here goes like this. The defense counsel objected, the trial court said, nope, rejected, so there's no Batsen claim. And then the state and several Supreme Court justices, as well as the Fifth Circuit, say that the defense counsel waived the objection by not screaming at the trial court about how they were wrong about Batsen and the explanation is actually pretextual, even though it's not really clear what the prosecutor's basis for the objections were, since the questioning of the jurors was limited, which would then make it really hard for defense counsel to argue that the prosecutor's somewhat mysterious reasons for striking the jurors. Were actually pretextual, right? So again, a lot of this is very fact dependent. The fact that the prosecutor didn't offer a lot of reasons.

• 41:04Melissa Murray?

  There weren't a lot of bases for the defense counsel to raise questions around pretext. All of this. The problem, or a problem, is that the state court just cut off the Batson process before all of this could sort itself out. The court just allowed the prosecutor to recite some race neutral explanations without purporting to actually examine if those explanations were in fact pretextual or to even allow the defense counsel to argue that they were in fact pretextual.

• 41:33Leah Litman?

  And the lawyer for the state, as well as the lawyer for the federal government arguing in support of the state, as well as Sam Alito, really doubled down on this idea that defense counsel should have been more assertive, as you can hear here.

• 41:45Speaker 15

  Mr. Perkovich, what happened here is certainly not a model to be followed in future cases. But I wonder if you would agree that in interpreting this transcript, we can take into account the way defense counsel generally behave in a situation like this.

• 42:09Speaker 16

  Justice Alito, if you could clarify that question of defense counsel's general behavior.

• 42:16Speaker 15

  Well, this is the most timid and reticent defense counsel that I have encountered. Any competent defense attorney that I knew would have spoken up.

• 42:29Leah Litman?

  Because we all know how much state courts love public defenders who get adamant. Like, come on. You know, wanted to make a wonky, habeas note for my fellow habeas nerds. There's some uncertainty about whether the Supreme Court will say that the state court here made a factual mistake because there actually wasn't a waiver versus a legal one, because the state court didn't perform that third Batson step of analyzing whether the race neutral explanation was pretextual. And federal law in post conviction creates super complicated rules that are specific to factual challenges versus legal ones.

• 43:02Melissa Murray?

  There was also a lot of this could just be a short opinion energy in this case. And it really came from Justice Jackson. And part of me wondered, Leah, if her interest in a short opinion here is to keep her ghoulish colleagues from doing the most if she can. So let's hear from her.

• 43:18Speaker 09

  I see this also as possibly a very short opinion. When we look at what Mississippi's Supreme Court said, it would go something like Pitchford's trial counsel made a back's an objection and re-raised it multiple times. Each time, the trial judge reassured her that it was preserved. Nevertheless, Mississippi Supreme Court said it was waived. That's unreasonable. The end. What would be wrong with that?

• 43:50Speaker 16

  Um, not, not anything I can think of. Uh, I mean.

• 43:55Leah Litman?

  This had big no duh dumb shit energy to me, which I was here for. And, you know, just as far as how this case is going to come out, you know, BLM Brett was back for this argument. So my guess is there is going to be a majority for the defendant here, thankfully.

• 44:09Melissa Murray?

  All right. Here we are.

• 44:11Leah Litman?

  Having.

• 44:12Melissa Murray?

  Here we are. Wait, what's that mean? That, that gif like?

• 44:16Leah Litman?

  Yeah. Yes.

• 44:18Melissa Murray?

  So excited for this. This is that, that gif of the guy behind the tree looking out and getting ready.

• 44:26Leah Litman?

  Looking his lips in, yeah.

• 44:28Melissa Murray?

  It's time, it's time, folks. It's time for legal news. Pamela Jo Bondi.

• 44:35Leah Litman?

  Boom. There goes the Hunger Games canon.

• 44:40Melissa Murray?

  Pamela no job Bondi. Pamela Gandhi. No stick Pam. PB out of J. PB out of a J O B. So many good names.

• 44:50Leah Litman?

  We could go on.

• 44:51Melissa Murray?

  So many.

• 44:52Leah Litman?

  We probably will in our spare time.

• 44:54Melissa Murray?

  I mean, what could have made this better is if he had actually nominated Mark Wayne Mullen to be the Attorney General.

• 45:02Leah Litman?

  This is a time. This is a place. Let's go cowboy.

• 45:07Melissa Murray?

  No one should ever say that the President of the United States is not a gentleman, because after firing Pamela Jo Bondi unceremoniously in The Beast on the way to the Supreme Court, he wish-casted on the way out and offered this truth for the graceful departure of Pam. Quote, "We love Pam, and she will be transitioning to a much-needed and important, yet unspecified, new job in the private sector to be announced at a date in the near future." Never. "And our Deputy Attorney General, and a very talented and respected legal mind," sort of, "Todd Blanch, will step in to serve as Acting Attorney General."

• 45:50Melissa Murray?

  Thank you for your attention to this matter, President Donald Trump.

• 45:53Leah Litman?

  So, let's just step back to observe the arc in Trump's second term's Attorneys General. So initially, Juan-

• 46:01Melissa Murray?

  Okay, can I just say-

• 46:02Leah Litman?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 46:02Melissa Murray?

  Can you imagine, like, Janet Reno in heaven?

• 46:05Leah Litman?

  Oh, my God.

• 46:06Melissa Murray?

  Eric Holder, Loretta Lynch, watching all of this, like, what the actual fuck? This whole arc is so messed up.

• 46:14Leah Litman?

  It is, and that-

• 46:16Melissa Murray?

  14 months.

• 46:17Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 46:18Melissa Murray?

  14 months.

• 46:18Leah Litman?

  Yeah. Of course, we all remember initially, Trump wanted to select and nominate one, Matt Gaetz, for Attorney General, the guy accused of paying minors for sex.

• 46:30Melissa Murray?

  I believe Leah referred to Matt Gaetz as a frat paddle that became a real live boy and Attorney General nominee.

• 46:36Leah Litman?

  With botox. That one.

• 46:40Melissa Murray?

  Ooh.

• 46:40Leah Litman?

  And from there, we then went to Pamela Jo Bondi, who, of course, one of the most associated moments and images of her tenure is a photograph of her refusing to turn around and acknowledge the Epstein survivors during her congressional testimony.

• 46:56Melissa Murray?

  But she did acknowledge the stock market.

• 46:59Leah Litman?

  She did. Which was important. She did, but the Dow-

• 47:01Melissa Murray?

  She did.

• 47:01Leah Litman?

  But the Dow was at 50,000. And now, at least for acting, we are getting Todd Blanch, Trump's personal lawyer, who met with one Ghislaine Maxwell and may have arranged her transfer to a lower-security prison, and who once had this to say about-

• 47:20Leah Litman?

  Jeffrey Epstein. So take a listen.

• 47:23Speaker 10

  Is there any chance that any of these individuals who partied with Epstein and engaged in, you know, relations with minors will be prosecuted? Any chance?

• 47:35Speaker 17

  We, I'll never say no. And we will always investigate any evidence of misconduct. But as you know, it is not a crime to party with Mr. Epstein.

• 47:45Leah Litman?

  Again, not unconstitutional to have parties.

• 47:48Melissa Murray?

  It is so clear that Todd Blanch was auditioning to be America's next top Attorney General last weekend at the CPAC convention where he just said outrageous, outlandish shit about sending ICE agents to polling places. Like, he was auditioning. He knew that there was chum in the water for Bondi and that there was going to be a shakeup at DOJ and he wanted to put himself in the right place. Except Ghislaine Maxwell. Like, my dude, you are unconfirmable. There's no way you could be confirmed. Not only were you his personal lawyer for the hush money thing, not only have you helped orchestrate all of these retributive prosecutions against people who've literally done nothing except dissent

• 48:32Melissa Murray?

  against this president, you also seemed to have something to do with the transfer of Ghislaine Maxwell, or at least that is the appearance of it. Like, you're not going anywhere, sir. And that is why he called you the acting Attorney General and why he is literally considering three other people, one of whom may be a box of wine, to be the actual Attorney General. Okay, let's break down what happened with Pamela Jo Bondi. It was so promising. That's not true. It was never promising.

• 49:03Speaker 10

  No.

• 49:04Melissa Murray?

  So, one of the apparent problems that the president had with Pamela Jo Bondi was that she was insufficiently effective at mounting political prosecutions. And, I don't know, I mean... I feel semi bad for, and I actually don't feel bad for her. It wasn't really her fault. It was, you know, the Constitution and the public and judges and jurors who refused to go along with this, but she did catch a lot of the strays.

• 49:34Leah Litman?

  Why not blame a woman for everyone else's mistakes?

• 49:38Melissa Murray?

  I mean, I will say, like, she should have stood up to him and been like, sir, this is absolutely ridiculous. You should not be doing this. But we knew she wasn't capable of that kind of metal. So it was never going to happen. But this could have happened to, honestly, anyone. This could have happened to Matt Gaetz, like, if he refused to do it.

• 49:58Leah Litman?

  Because we have alluded to this moment, we do want to invite you to relive one of Pamela Jo Bondi's greatest hits when we thought she had short circuited during her congressional testimony. So here you go.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  The Dow is over $50,000. I don't know why you're laughing. You're a great stock trader, as I hear asking. The Dow is over $50,000 right now.

• 50:24Leah Litman?

  Just remember, people, Pamela Jo Bondi may be out, but the Dow, the Dow is at whatever it is at now.

• 50:31Melissa Murray?

  I mean, this is the Bravo-ification of Pamela Jo Bondi. And I kind of knew when it happened, she was not long for this world. I mean, Kristi Noem had a similar kind. I'm like, ladies, don't go testify before Congress acting like a housewife.

• 50:47Leah Litman?

  Well, this is why they need to get Stephen Miller to testify before Congress. Right? Just parade him out, dog walk him, humiliate him, and get him the F out of town.

• 50:59Melissa Murray?

  I mean, just...

• 51:00Leah Litman?

  It's my advice.

• 51:01Melissa Murray?

  Yeah.

• 51:01Leah Litman?

  More seriously, we all deserve this moment of schadenfreude with Pamela Jo. We earned it. In the last year, federal judges have described how she, quote, "lost the, quote, 'trust' that had been earned over generations," quote, "destroyed the presumption of regularity," and, quote, "lost the trust and confidence of legal communities and the public." Like, we can all mock her failures, and there were many, but she did a ton of damage. And she succeeded at a lot of unlawful aims, including the still pending vindictive political prosecution of, for example, Representative La Monica McIver.

• 51:33Melissa Murray?

  Okay, let me just say here... She could have been anyone, right? I mean, like, just to be very, very clear, this is all, the rot comes from the top. This is the president

• 51:44Leah Litman?

  Oh, completely.

• 51:44Melissa Murray?

  Literally dictating the policies and priorities of the Department of Justice. To be very clear, an actual Attorney General who took seriously their oath as a lawyer would stand up. But that's not going to be anyone here. So like, this literally could have been a head of lettuce, leading this department, and the same thing would have happened. But it is delicious that it was Pamela Jo Bondi, and then that she got

• 52:09Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 52:10Melissa Murray?

  literally dog walked and kicked out the way she did.

• 52:12Leah Litman?

  Speaking of deliciousness, I do wonder if we need to launch a spring or summer drink to pour one out in honor of one Pamela Jo

• 52:20Melissa Murray?

  I know. It can be Prosecco.

• 52:23Leah Litman?

  Oh, that's good. That's good. Okay, Fire Bondi or Fire Bondi?

• 52:30Melissa Murray?

  Oh, okay. I'm thinking.

• 52:33Leah Litman?

  Okay, that's my nomination.

• 52:35Melissa Murray?

  We have to keep, we have to think about some of these. These are, this is great. Like, I want to think of something with like a spritz in it.

• 52:41Leah Litman?

  Oh, oh, yeah, I see that.

• 52:44Melissa Murray?

  Like instead of a Hugo spritz, a Pamgo spritz?

• 52:47Leah Litman?

  Okay.

• 52:48Melissa Murray?

  I know, you're not loving it.

• 52:50Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 52:50Melissa Murray?

  But I do, I love elderberry. Elderflower, whatever's in that.

• 52:53Leah Litman?

  Something with like ap- aporal, ap- aporal, a pomerol?

• 52:57Melissa Murray?

  Apple.

• 52:58Leah Litman?

  Anyways, we'll workshop.

• 52:59Melissa Murray?

  We'll workshop it. Speaking of drinks, other Trump officials have also been covering themselves in glory. And yet, they've somehow managed to hold on to their jobs. Even in the face of incompetence and malevolence, this administration still manages to squeeze in a little light sexism. So Cash Patel, FBI Director, apparently fell for a phishing scam that compromised his emails. In addition to Cash covering himself in glory, The Financial Times reports that, quote, "A broker for Pete Hegseth attempted to make a big investment in major defense companies in the weeks leading up to the U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran." What do they call this in the law, Leah?

• 53:41Melissa Murray?

  Attempted dildo, also known as insider trading. Yeah, or public corruption. I mean, you name it. But obviously Uncle Drunky wasn't going to be fired for trying to get in on the grifty dildos. You know, perhaps another reason he might not have been fired is what NBC News reported, namely that Hegseth has apparently intervened to stop military promotions for more than a dozen senior officers. Which ones, you ask? Well, the story notes that his interventions have, quote, "raised concerns that he may be targeting the officials because of race and gender." Hegseth intervened to block or delay promotions for more than a dozen black and female senior officers. He has also been firing senior military officials while conducting this unplanned, rudderless

• 54:25Melissa Murray?

  forever war that has not achieved any of its objectives and just created additional problems. Is this D E I? Right, exactly. Yes. Dick, ex-husband, incel, imbecile, you name it. All right, on to the institutions that are actually covering themselves in glory. We got several big district court opinions last week. And for those who might not know, every six months, the federal trial courts have to submit reports about how many cases remain outstanding and pending. This creates pressure on the district courts to release opinions before those dates. This is known as the six-month list.

• 55:07Melissa Murray?

  One of those dates that is relevant for the six-month list is March 31st. And not surprisingly, we got a big batch of opinions. So Judge Leon in the District of the District of Columbia halted the construction of the president's ballroom in the White House. And in typical Judge Leon fashion, there are many exclamation points. And we love it. The opinion... You can hear those exclamation points. I love it, love it. Pound the tables. The opinion begins, for example, quote, "The President of the United States is the steward of the White House for future generations of first families. He is not, however, the owner."

• 55:52Melissa Murray?

  Exclamation point. Judge Leon then said, quote, "The National Trust is likely to succeed on the merits because no statute comes close to giving the president the authority he claims to have." Judge Leon then referred to that claim of authority as, quote, "A brazen interpretation."

• 56:14Leah Litman?

  What a performance. What a performance.

• 56:18Melissa Murray?

  Thank you. Judge Leon, we loved it.

• 56:21Leah Litman?

  Well, I was referring to yours as well.

• 56:23Melissa Murray?

  Like, we're not, like, honestly, we're not making fun. We love an exclamation point in an opinion. If you can put crap-tastic in an opinion, we are here for it.

• 56:33Leah Litman?

  Okay, so Judge Metta, also in the District of the District of Columbia, held that some of the civil lawsuits against Donald Trump for actions on January 6 could proceed because the suits concerned actions taken in Donald Trump's private capacity rather than his official capacity. And then Judge Moss, also in the District Court for the District of Columbia, held that the executive order freezing funding to NPR and PBS was unlawful. And now, a bad decision, because bad decision season never stops. A district court held that the Trump administration can demand and obtain information from the University of Pennsylvania that identifies Jewish faculty and students, and specifically groups and organizations on campus related to Judaism, and that it can get, you know,

• 57:17Leah Litman?

  individual personnel and membership information. The opinion is, in my view, pretty, like, tone deaf and callous and dismissive of what I think are legitimate concerns with handing over this information to the administration, but that's my note.

• 57:31Melissa Murray?

  Article 2 also issued some opinions. Yeah. The president, who was definitely on one, issued an executive order purporting to restrict absentee ballots. Just to be clear, this has the same legal force and effect as if a frat boy wrote it on a napkin at a bar and puked on it and then wiped his face. Executive orders can't change federal statutes. The president also doesn't have the authority to set the rules regarding federal elections, as the Constitution reminds us. But nevertheless, this was all the president's effort to sow more and more chaos as we careen toward the midterm elections.

• 58:15Leah Litman?

  And then the Office of Legal Counsel decided to one up the president and issued an opinion declaring the Presidential Records Act, a law that just requires presidents to keep records of official business, is, you guessed it, unconstitutional, an infringement on the executive power. Because federal laws that tell the president to do things are apparently unconstitutional because they interfere with the president's power to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. It does not make sense. And, you know, the attack on the Presidential Records Act kind of teed up this question for me, which is, what the fuck are these guys hiding? Like, what do they not want to keep records of?

• 58:59Melissa Murray?

  Right.

• 59:00Leah Litman?

  Because what they're doing out in the open is already bad enough?

• 59:03Melissa Murray?

  I just want to be clear for our listeners. We laughed when we said that Article II issued some opinions. It's kind of funny, but it's not really, right? So these executive orders are basically the president's attempt at constitutionalism, and they have nothing to do with reading. They have nothing to do with reading the Constitution. This is the president wish casting what he wished the Constitution and relevant statutes said. And there will be lawsuits, I'm sure, challenging all of this, but there is something to be said for how he sort of normalizes these ideas by putting them out there. And so we feel like we are obliged to remind you, again, that these pronouncements, whether it's

• 59:46Melissa Murray?

  from OLC or the president, these are not the law. These are basically frat boy musings and wish casting.

• 59:54Leah Litman?

  And part of ensuring they're not the law is insisting they are not the law.

• 1:00:00Melissa Murray?

  Yeah. So keep saying that part.

• 1:00:04Leah Litman?

  Exactly.

• 1:00:05Melissa Murray?

  Right?

• 1:00:06Leah Litman?

  When I-

• 1:00:07Melissa Murray?

  This is frat boy wish casting. That's what this is.

• 1:00:08Leah Litman?

  When I saw this OLC opinion, I thought I heard a sound. And that sound may have been one Professor Alon Werman preparing an op ed arguing that Congress itself is unconstitutional. So Alon Werman is one of the right wing professors that, you know, went on a bender trying to justify the president's illegal executive order. At one point during the oral arguments, Solicitor General John Sauer invoked his amicus brief, which was definitely a sign the oral argument was not going well for the federal government. And when that happened, Eli Mistol, who was live blue skying the argument, said this reminded him of that moment from Arrested Development where Tobias Fuqua is like, there are dozens of us, dozens.

• 1:00:50Leah Litman?

  And I just, I loved it anyways. The reasoning in this OLC opinion, such as it is, is like extreme unitary executive theory, where extreme and executive are words that begin with the letter X. It maintains that Congress cannot expropriate the papers of the chief executive. Those are papers that Congress paid for and appropriated to the president. Like, the next thing they're going to tell us is that Congress can't take back the chief executive's ballroom. And the OLC opinion also claims that the retention of presidential records serves no valid legislative purpose. Like, these guys have truly lost the plot.

• 1:01:29Melissa Murray?

  All right. Again, just, what is this timeline?

• 1:01:36Leah Litman?

  I don't know.

• 1:01:37Melissa Murray?

  I don't know. Anyway, it's so exhausting with an X. X-austing. All right. Briefly, some notes on the other cases that were argued last week at SCOTUS. So the court heard Abouamo versus United States, which is about venue in criminal cases. Venue is about where a case can and should be filed. The specific question in this case is whether venue is appropriate in a district where the events conduct, that's the stuff that constitutes the crime, didn't happen, but that the defendant's intent contemplated would have effects in the district.

• 1:02:16Melissa Murray?

  So the case was argued the day after the huge no kings protest that occurred across the country. And that seemed to be on some of the justices minds. So for example, Chief Justice Roberts asked a question about the Boston Tea Party. And he directed this to the government and he said, quote, "The Boston Tea Party takes place entirely in Boston, but it causes effects back in England." And so why can't you say it's all right to take these cases to England? As in, that can't possibly be right. Justice Alito's mind also went to a similar place, which you can hear right here.

• 1:02:52Speaker 15

  You're trying to defend this particular conviction, and I understand that. But maybe when you're told that what you're doing is a violation of the Declaration of Independence, you might think about what seems to me the more important point for lasting significance.

• 1:03:13Melissa Murray?

  Pot, kettle, my guy. Like, when people tell you you're violating foundational principles, maybe you too should pause and reconsider your life's choices. There was a lot of weird no kings acknowledgements slash celebrations going around among these guys. So here was Pete Hegseth.

• 1:03:31Speaker 18

  I think the president was clear this morning in his truth that there are countries around the world who ought be prepared to step up on this critical waterway as well. It's not just the United States Navy. Last time I checked, there was supposed to be a big bad Royal Navy that could be prepared to do things like that as well.

• 1:03:49Melissa Murray?

  I have to say, celebrating no kings and America's 250th birthday by asking the Royal Navy for help. Is America great?

• 1:03:58Leah Litman?

  Just ask Meghan Markle.

• 1:03:59Melissa Murray?

  Is America great yet?

• 1:04:02Leah Litman?

  Not yet.

• 1:04:03Melissa Murray?

  You know, like, again, do these people fucking read?

• 1:04:06Leah Litman?

  No, they don't.

• 1:04:07Melissa Murray?

  Do you know any history? Oh, my God.

• 1:04:10Leah Litman?

  You know, back to this particular case, the argument was a little hard to read. You know, if I had to guess, I think maybe the justices were leaning toward the defendant. You know, not clear what the grounds would be.

• 1:04:20Melissa Murray?

  The court also heard argument in Jules versus Andre Bolas properties about arbitration stays. If the name Andre Bolas sounds familiar to you listeners, it's because back in the go-go late 90s, early aughts, Andre Bolas was a hotelier who was hanging out with

• 1:04:37Melissa Murray?

  All the hotties. He took out Uma Thurman. He, I mean, all the folks. I mean, he, he was, he was on the pages. Everyone knew him. In any event, this case is not about that. It's about arbitration stays. That's right. Arbitration stays. So the case is a follow on to Badgero versus Walters, where the court said that the Federal Arbitration Act doesn't grant jurisdiction for federal courts to enforce an arbitration award where they lack jurisdiction over the underlying dispute. The question here is whether federal courts have jurisdiction to confirm an arbitration award in a case over which the court has jurisdiction to compel arbitration. But I do recommend the entire oeuvre of Andrei Bellazza's Dating Life from the late 90s

• 1:05:22Melissa Murray?

  and early 2000s. Very, very interesting.

• 1:05:25Leah Litman?

  So the actual case kind of comes down to whether the Federal Arbitration Act kind of creates its own jurisdictional universe and exceptions, or whether arbitration cases are subject to the more general rules about supplemental jurisdiction. This argument was also a little hard to read for me. I read the court as initially skeptical of the petitioner's argument that there's no jurisdiction. It's possible. The advocate, Adam Unikowski, made some headway. Justice Kagan, who's the author of Badgero, asked, you know, the person arguing second respondent tough questions. But then there were no questions for the respondent during the sariatum portion of the argument, which is often a sign, you know, that that side might win. This was also the second argument of the day, though,

• 1:06:05Leah Litman?

  so it's possible the justices just got tired, which also was maybe evidenced to me by this question from Samuel Alito.

• 1:06:13Speaker 15

  Just out of curiosity, do you think we should ask Claude to decide this case?

• 1:06:22Speaker 19

  No, I adhere to the wise judgment of this court.

• 1:06:26Melissa Murray?

  I mean, honestly, relatable. First relatable moment from him ever. Also, reminder, we got the court's opinion in Charles versus Salazar. That was a challenge to Colorado's conversion therapy ban. Leah did a short emergency episode with Shannon Mitter of the National Center for LGBTQ Rights. Definitely take a listen. It was fantastic. But again, we have a couple more big cases on trans rights coming down from this court this term. And this was an early reminder that it's not going to be great.

• 1:07:05Speaker 00

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  No, they said they'll be done on Monday.

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  No, they said they'll be done on Monday.

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• 1:08:12Leah Litman?

  Um, why don't you just briefly acknowledge the news? It's been reported that Sam Alito was taken to the hospital after a Federalist Society event back on March 20th and, you know, was released after being treated for like dehydration or whatnot. So we saw the news. I'm just not sure there's that much to say about it. But now it's time for our favorite things. So as this episode has basically made clear, this has been a week and I've got a lot of favorites. There were no King's Signs. One of my favorites, "Wait, is this the TSA line?" I loved it. Also, all of the heated rivalry signs. You know, those were all so amazing.

• 1:08:53Leah Litman?

  Jamal Bowie had a fantastic article in the New York Times, "The Birthright Con." Also, this past week, we sent emails to the people who won merchandise inspired by Melissa's forthcoming book, "The U.S. Constitution: A Comprehensive and Annotated Guide for the Modern Reader," and the responses were just so endearing. I loved- Reading those. So thank you, everyone, for entering.

• 1:09:16Melissa Murray?

  I mean, I loved reading them, too, but I just, I gotta give you some props. What a great giveaway shirt. It's such a cute shirt. Constitutional AF.

• 1:09:24Leah Litman?

  Maybe we'll do another giveaway. Maybe we'll run it again.

• 1:09:27Melissa Murray?

  We should. I'm sure James Madison was sitting there.

• 1:09:30Leah Litman?

  You have already given James Madison such a glow up with this book.

• 1:09:33Melissa Murray?

  I mean, but they're all just like, I wish we'd thought about that. Constitutional AF. We should have just put it in there.

• 1:09:38Leah Litman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:09:39Melissa Murray?

  We should have done it. Yeah.

• 1:09:41Leah Litman?

  So other, other favorites of mine. Oh, I'm not done, Melissa.

• 1:09:45Melissa Murray?

  Okay.

• 1:09:45Leah Litman?

  All of the coverage of Kristi Noem's cross-dressing husband. Injected into my veins. You know, there was this meme going around about fuck, marry, kill. You know, as Kristi Noem plays it with Corey Lewandowski. Her dog Cricket and her husband. Cannot recommend that enough. Emily Amick made a wonderful video, providing him some, her husband, some advice

• 1:10:10Leah Litman?

  about bras for the big boobies. And then add to that, all of the dancing on Pam Bondi's grave.

• 1:10:16Melissa Murray?

  Loved.

• 1:10:17Leah Litman?

  You know, for, for the people who are going to get into my DMs and call me sexist for coming after all the women in the Trump administration. I will just quote Mr. Bennett from Pride and Prejudice and say, send them in. I'm quite at my leisure.

• 1:10:31Leah Litman?

  Also, Melissa, you guest hosting The Beat the night Pamela Jo Bondi was fired. Oh, my gosh. Sometimes karma works out and it's real. And I loved it.

• 1:10:43Melissa Murray?

  It was a fun night. I'm not gonna lie. Not gonna lie.

• 1:10:47Leah Litman?

  Still not done. Wall Street Journal's Rachel Bachman and Justin Lee Hart had a fantastic story about the WNBA players relying on Claudia Goldin, a Nobel laureate, to help negotiate, you know, more equal pay. I loved reading that. Two other things that are a little bit favorite slash promotional. So the paperback edition of my book is going to be coming out on June 16th. And apparently that release date means I'm going to be competing with JD Vance's shitty forthcoming book. And you can preorder copies of my paperback book and get them signed. So my local independent bookstore, Literati, is running this. So you just go to their website. We'll include the link in the show notes.

• 1:11:28Leah Litman?

  And you can order the book paperback version with a signed copy. And I know you're not usually supposed to do this, but I mean, I couldn't help myself. I wrote a new chapter on the Unitarian Executive.

• 1:11:39Melissa Murray?

  Love.

• 1:11:40Leah Litman?

  I made updates to all the chapters. The publisher was like, this is a new edition, girl. Like, this is gonna take more time. And I was like, I don't care. Right? I want to write this.

• 1:11:48Melissa Murray?

  I love new edition. Both the band and this new iteration of your book.

• 1:11:53Leah Litman?

  Exactly, exactly. So I had a lot of fun doing that. And then on the podcast front, we have been nominated for a Webby Award.

• 1:12:01Melissa Murray?

  Wait, wait, say it like Judge Leon Wood.

• 1:12:02Leah Litman?

  A Webby! For the Webby Award! For the best politics and opinion podcast! Um, but Webby's are determined by votes. And we could really use your help in voting. And so please check out the link in the show notes and consider voting for us for a Webby Award.

• 1:12:20Melissa Murray?

  Please vote for us for the Webby's. We are gonna give such a great speech, an acceptance speech for the ages.

• 1:12:25Leah Litman?

  You know it. This episode just gave you a flavor of all of the things we might say.

• 1:12:31Melissa Murray?

  I mean, we're gonna leave Kate at home.

• 1:12:34Leah Litman?

  No.

• 1:12:34Melissa Murray?

  We'll bring her.

• 1:12:35Leah Litman?

  Kate, Kate, we love you.

• 1:12:36Melissa Murray?

  We love you, Kate.

• 1:12:38Leah Litman?

  Last week, you attempted to recite a line I gave you about the consummation court fucking the country and democracy. And she just couldn't get it out. And I was just like, oh, yeah, Leah said this thing about the consummation court. But I appreciate the effort, girl. I see you.

• 1:12:53Melissa Murray?

  We see you, Kate. Kate's on vacation, but we know she's interviewing for a high-level position. Okay. All right, my favorite things. I read a terrific new article that is forthcoming in the UCLA Law Review. It's called "Parents as Regulators," and it's by Arizona State Law Professor Caitlin Malott. The paper is-

• 1:13:13Leah Litman?

  I love her work.

• 1:13:14Melissa Murray?

  Her work is fantastic.

• 1:13:15Leah Litman?

  I've been relying on it a ton.

• 1:13:15Melissa Murray?

  She's a junior scholar.

• 1:13:17Leah Litman?

  Articles I'm working on.

• 1:13:18Melissa Murray?

  She's great. I agree. She was my research assistant once upon a time, so maybe I'm biased, but I think she's just doing some of the best work in the family.

• 1:13:24Leah Litman?

  I didn't know her at all. Love her stuff.

• 1:13:25Melissa Murray?

  She's great. So this paper is so interesting. It focuses on Mahmoud versus Taylor, which we, of course, have covered a lot. But it sort of goes into this question about parents' rights. And she notes that the whole concept of parents' rights was sort of born in this milieu that was really focused on the private side of things, like what happened in- The home and like present, you know, parents exercising their rights mostly were confined to the home. But now in the context of schools and the sort of veto that parents may exercise post Mahmoud, when the parents exercise their rights, it's not really in the private context, it has public consequences. And in that sense, it functions more like regulation

• 1:14:04Melissa Murray?

  and we ought to understand it as a species of regulation. It's very, very smart, really fantastic. I think she's doing some of the most interesting work at the intersection of family law, education law and gender. People should really be looking at her and reading her. I also read Harlem Rhapsody for my book group. It's by Victoria Christopher Murray, no relation, but I'm all here for Clan Murray. I'm always rooting for Clan Murray. And it is about Jesse Redmond Fawcett, whom Langston Hughes referred to as a midwife of the Harlem Renaissance. And it is juicy, though. So I learned a lot about the Harlem

• 1:14:45Melissa Murray?

  Renaissance. But I also learned that maybe Jesse Redmond Fawcett and W E B Du Bois were kind of an item and she was his sort of side piece. A lot going on here. And I was here for all of it. I also want to recommend for those of you who are going through the college admissions process, it just wound down and I see you because that was fucking crazy. And I would love to kill it with hot fire. So if you made it out to the other side of the college admissions process, give yourselves a pat on the back. If your kids made you crazy the whole time, give yourself a pat on the back and congratulations to all of you just for making it through and your kids are going to be great. For

• 1:15:27Melissa Murray?

  those of you with little kids, I have a great suggestion for a podcast. It's called My Boo Buddies. And it's so delightful. These little kids that I met on vacation were listening to it at the pool. I was like, what is that? They're like, it's a podcast. And I'm like, you listen to podcasts? They're like, yeah, we listen to podcasts. I'm like, well, have you heard of Stick Scrutiny? They're like, no, what's Stick Scrutiny? This is My Boo Buddies. And so I was like, well, what's My Boo Buddies? Apparently, it is a kid friendly mystery podcast that's packed with laughs, light scares, and lovable ghost pets. It's really cute. It's about a Latino family that inherits a house in East Hampton and high jinks continue throughout as they meet a bunch of ghost pets and

• 1:16:09Melissa Murray?

  I know it sounds incre- it sounds just insane, but these kids actually loved it. So if you need something to keep the little ones in your lives busy, I highly recommend my Boo Buddies because all I know is this mom was at the beach, she was chilled, she was chillaxing, she had a pina colada, and these kids had my Boo Buddies. So if you want that for your life, hop on it. Also want to say that the day before, I anchored the demise old yellering of Pamela Jo Bondi, I got to anchor the launch of Artemis II.

• 1:16:42Leah Litman?

  Artemis, that was so cool.

• 1:16:44Melissa Murray?

  The first crude lunar mission in the United States since 1972. And I have to say, I'm pretty jaded. This actually warmed the, just the depths of my cold, dead heart. It was really, really amazing to watch and

• 1:16:59Leah Litman?

  I did love following it.

• 1:17:00Melissa Murray?

  Right. And one of the people who was on the show that I was leading, anchoring, said, you know, now little kids are going to want to be astronauts for Halloween again. And he was like, oh yeah, I haven't seen many astronauts. Like that used to be a big thing when I was a kid. People would dress up as astronauts and not so much anymore. And, you know, it was nice. And it was nice to see that America can do amazing things. Really amazing to see that the crew of Artemis II was so diverse. The pilot, Victor Glover, will be the first African American on a lunar mission. The mission specialist, Christina Koch, is the first woman in a lunar mission. And there is a Canadian mission specialist.

• 1:17:44Melissa Murray?

  So it's just so interesting in this moment where we seem to be wanting to kill DEI with red hot fire, where it actually seemed to be working. Interesting.

• 1:17:53Leah Litman?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Melissa Murray?

  So, all right.

• 1:17:56Leah Litman?

  We've got some housekeeping and it's big. It's very big.

• 1:17:59Melissa Murray?

  All right. I may prepare myself.

• 1:18:01Leah Litman?

  Okay, so June has the honor of not only being Pride Month.

• 1:18:05Melissa Murray?

  Pride Month!

• 1:18:06Leah Litman?

  Yay, yay, Pride Month!

• 1:18:08Melissa Murray?

  Pride Month!

• 1:18:08Leah Litman?

  But also the month when the Supreme Court often makes its most controversial and worst decisions. Boo. Yes, June is complicated, but luckily, this June, we, Strict Scrutiny, are coming to New York City to help all of us get through it together.

• 1:18:26Melissa Murray?

  Live show!

• 1:18:28Leah Litman?

  You want to tell people when?

• 1:18:29Melissa Murray?

  Live show, live show!

• 1:18:32Leah Litman?

  So you can catch Strict Scrutiny live at the historic Gramercy Theater on June 20th as part of our Bad Decisions Tour. The pre-sale will begin this Wednesday, April 8th, at 10 a.m. Eastern Time. Now, the pre-sale only lasts two days, so get your tickets before they sell out. And the code is?

• 1:18:52Melissa Murray?

  Vibes!

• 1:18:53Leah Litman?

  Vibes.

• 1:18:54Melissa Murray?

  Vibes!

• 1:18:55Leah Litman?

  That's V-I-B-E-S. So, hope to see you in New York.

• 1:19:01Melissa Murray?

  We better see you in New York!

• 1:19:04Leah Litman?

  And Judge Leon, big strict scrutiny energy! Strict Scrutiny is a Crooked Media production, hosted and executive produced by me, Leah Litman, Melissa Murray, and Kate Shaw. Our senior producer and editor is Melody Rauel. Michael Goldsmith is our producer. Jordan Thomas is our intern. Our music is by Eddie Cooper. We get production support from Katie Long and Adrian Hill. Matt DeGroot is our head of production. And thanks to our video team, Ben Heathcote and Johanna Case. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to Strict Scrutiny in your favorite podcast app and on YouTube, at Strict Scrutiny Podcast, so you never miss an episode. And if you want to help other people find the show, please rate and review us.

• 1:19:49Leah Litman?

  It really helps.

• 1:20:07Speaker 20

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• 1:20:50Speaker 21

  Monday Night brings one more big matchup to settle into. And when every play matters, the last thing you want to do is step away to figure out dinner. That's where DiGiorno comes in. Get a DiGiorno pizza ready before kickoff, then enjoy restaurant-quality taste fresh from your own oven while you stay locked into every play. Stock up on DiGiorno over the weekend, so when Monday night rolls around, the only thing you sweat is the game. Shop now at the link in the episode description. It's not delivery, it's DiGiorno.