The Credit Card Secrets Rich People Don’t Talk About (ft. The Points Guy)

Brian Kelly (aka The Points Guy) joins Financial Tea to spill his credit card secrets—the five cards you need in your wallet, which ones are actually worth the annual fee, and the mistakes that can wreck your credit. He gets real about ruining his credit when he was younger, how he rebuilt it, and how to maximize points and perks without blowing up your finances. Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones is a Sony Music Entertainment production. Pre-Order my upcoming book, FUTURE RICH PERSON, here: https://www.mrsdowjones.com/book Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us at @sonypodcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Haley Sacks?

  What's up, rich people? It's me, Haley, AKA Mrs. Dow Jones, and this is Financial Tea. Okay, we all love to romanticize being your own boss, but even when you have a team, you still end up being the bookkeeper, the marketing department, and the person rearranging appointments at 11:00 PM. And that work isn't just annoying, it is expensive, and it's especially taxing for businesses that run on appointments. So if you own a business that takes bookings, this one's for you. GlossGenius is a system that runs the operations for you behind the scenes. Scheduling, payments, admin handled automatically. Payment processing is a flat rate with zero hidden fees,

• 0:45Haley Sacks?

  and check out Rebook's clients on the spot. Clients can book in seconds too, so there's no login or separate app necessary, so you actually get more appointments. 125,000 businesses already trust GlossGenius to earn them more and save them time. Want to try it out for yourself? Go to glossgenius.com and use code FINANCIAL for 50% off your first two months of a premium plan. Okay, so I just gave my apartment a major refresh, and hands down, the hardest thing to get right was the rug. I just couldn't find one that fit right, and I really wanted something that pulled the room together, because a rug is a big deal. But then I found Ernesta, and Ernesta's amazing, you guys. It makes designer-quality rugs

• 1:29Haley Sacks?

  custom-cut to the exact size of your space, so it actually fits instead of almost fits, and looks great the first time. Like, in the past, I've just defaulted to stock sizes when buying rugs. And also, when you're in a New York City apartment, that really just doesn't cut it, but they're all weirdly shaped. But with Ernesta, you can send photos and dimension to Ernesta's design team, and they help you get the size exactly right, completely free of charge. Hand-selected by design experts, Ernesta rugs are beautiful, they're durable, and they're made for the way you actually live. Cut, finished, and delivered in as little as two weeks. Visit ernesta.com and order five samples for only $10, and you will get $50 toward any rug of your choice.

• 2:13Haley Sacks?

  That is E-R-N-E-S-T-A.com. What's up, sippers? Welcome back to Financial Tea with Mrs. Dow Jones. This is the podcast where I teach you how to build wealth with a side of market drama, money scandals, and of course, financial pop culture. In this episode, we're going to be talking credit cards. Yes, plastic is back, baby. We're going to go through the good, the bad, and the ones absolutely wrecking your financial life that you need to stay away from at all costs. Of course, I couldn't do this alone, so I brought in the big guns. Brian Kelly himself is joining us, AKA The Point Sky. And let me tell you, the man spilled everything, including something shocking about his own finances

• 2:56Haley Sacks?

  that, fingers crossed, will land us in page six. Also, low-key, every person who works on this podcast and like heard the recordings, sign up for his card recs after the episode, including me. So be prepared to get super actionable after you listen to this episode and you're going to upgrade your wallet too. So if you want better perks, better credit, and more free flights without ruining your net worth, this episode is for you. Let's get into it.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  This is monumental.

• 3:26Haley Sacks?

  It really is. We're going to do just a little prayer, just bring in the podcast gods. You know, we're here to help people with their credit cards.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  Let's, let's do a little manifestation.

• 3:38Haley Sacks?

  Manifestation.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Ask, believe, receive.

• 3:40Haley Sacks?

  Ask, believe, receive.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  In the words of Kim Zolciak, beer man of the Atlanta housewife, she's one of my financial gurus.

• 3:47Haley Sacks?

  She really is. I think housewife to me is like-

• 3:49Speaker 01

  She's ahead of her time.

• 3:50Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, they all are. They all are. They're, they're playing chess. We're playing checkers, baby. That's really who you need to look to. I have a few questions for you before we start that we ask every guest.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:01Haley Sacks?

  First of all, what are your best and worst purchases of the week? Be for real.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Ooh, my best? Oh, so my worst purchase of the week is a, I love jackets and I, you know, you gotta spend money to make money and I believe in having nice clothes. But I didn't try it on and it looks beautiful, but it-

• 4:20Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  I took the tags off and I went outside to wear it and it's like extraordinarily woolly. It's like Brillo pad.

• 4:27Haley Sacks?

  Oh, no.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  And I have like sensitive skin and it was like a $2,000, really beautiful overcoat that I now cannot return. I will still wear it, but I was really annoyed. So never take your tags off until you really do a trial run.

• 4:39Haley Sacks?

  Oh yeah, you've got to wear, wear first.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:42Haley Sacks?

  Try before you buy.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Always. Um, yeah. And then my best purchase of the week.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Would have to be, I'll say, because this is, is travel insurance. So for the year ahead, I buy a yearly travel insurance package for my whole family.

• 5:00Haley Sacks?

  Smart.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Even though I have coverage through certain credit cards and I have good health insurance.

• 5:04Haley Sacks?

  It's never enough.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  It's never enough. And I think for me and my kids, it was like fifteen hundred dollars for the year for really good coverage. So it's always just a nice peace of mind to have that.

• 5:14Haley Sacks?

  That's awesome.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Allianz, I'm not, I have no partnership with them, but in the travel insurance world, Allianz is the yearly plan that pretty much all the top travel bloggers, it has a very good reputation.

• 5:26Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, that's what I've always used to.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Allianz is like the gold standard. Never buy travel insurance through the airline website, hotel website. You want to get it from a travel insurance provider because the airlines and hotels often, it's not even travel insurance. It's what's called travel protection, which is more expensive and has less coverage. So, fun fact, and insuremytrip.com is where if you want an individual package for like a big trip, that's where you go and compare and contrast plans before you purchase.

• 5:53Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, I feel like people, when they book trips, it's already so expensive. So you're always, I feel like, and that's the same with, people always skimp on insurance. Like when you buy your iPhone, you're like, oh, well, Apple Care is another two ninety-nine, so I shouldn't get it. But then the next day you drop your phone and then you have to pay to replace it.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Totally. Travel insurance, I think, it's like, it can be four or five percent of the total cost of the trip. It's like a rounding error, in my opinion. So definitely a believer, you know, airlines melting down, this, you know, last year we saw a lot of drama with airlines, the shutdown.

• 6:23Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  You name it. So travel insurance, I think is a good twenty twenty-six bet.

• 6:28Haley Sacks?

  Okay, that's really good. So my next question is sort of intense, but I know that you have a good answer. What do you lie about when it comes to money? Because we all fib a little.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  Ooh, what do I lie about when it comes to money?

• 6:43Haley Sacks?

  Like with dating, like anything?

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Ooh, well, first off, I would say, you know, people think I'm the points guy and I put every single expense on credit card. And by and large, I do. I also carry around cash all the time. And this is a mistake I see a lot of people making.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  I am a believer in a tip. And I think tips can get you extraordinary value and favors beyond like what you're owed. And I think in the travel world, for example, if you tip, not that I tip hotel front desk agents a lot.

• 7:14Haley Sacks?

  Do you do it when you check in?

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Some people do. I generally, I'm not that forward, but you could do that. And then if you ever need help, like cancelling the room early, like just being nice and tipping, tipping the front door, you know, front desk people. And then when you ask for a favor, like, hey, can I get late checkout?

• 7:30Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  The people like you. So I always have cash on me, although I do try to spend everything that I can on a credit card. Not just for the points. And this is what people need to realize too. When you're buying anything, using a credit card gives you protections as well. So.

• 7:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, that's huge.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  So even when I'm renting villas abroad and there'll be like 3%, you know, fee to use a credit card or free to bank wire or a boat rental in Miami for a day. Use the 3% fee.

• 7:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  You're gonna earn points that'll pretty much cover the fee. But even if it doesn't, you have the protection. And when that boat doesn't show up or the quality of the boat, if you wired the money to them to save that 3%, you're out the entire cost. So that is something I've learned over the years that, you know, I will pay a fee to pay for services. So I have that extra protection as well.

• 8:19Haley Sacks?

  So you're lying about being the points guy because actually you're paying cash?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do carry cash on me.

• 8:24Haley Sacks?

  Okay, caught you.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  And I do like tipping in cash as well because, you know, when you put a tip on a credit card, you're not sure. Especially in other countries, like the person you're trying to tip is probably not gonna get it.

• 8:34Haley Sacks?

  Cash is king.

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Cash is king and I think it, you know, it gets you karma points. So even if you're not getting your credit card points, but like I do believe in the value of like hooking up the people that, you know, make our lives easier.

• 8:45Haley Sacks?

  My issue with carrying cash is I feel like I'm, I become like too making it rain. Like I'll be seeing anyone and I'm like, here's a little for you, here's a little for you, like.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  I think, but I've come to learn that like if you can afford it, just do it, right? Like I remember when. Like I now luckily I have twenties on me pretty much all the time.

• 9:02Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, so guys, if you're looking for someone to mug, to sort of like track down, maybe, you know, you are looking for some extra cash like Brian's a good target. He's very tall.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  And I'm also, I mean, God, I've never been mugged.

• 9:14Haley Sacks?

  I'm kidding.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Or like, or pickpocketed, but I'm of the mindset like, I mean, and I'm fortunate. Take it and if someone really, I'm not going to stress about, you know. Yeah, I know that's a very fortunate place to come from.

• 9:28Haley Sacks?

  No, you have a good money mindset, like you believe that money is abundant and that it comes too easily.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  And I do believe the more you give in life in general, not just money, but your time and energy, it does come back.

• 9:38Haley Sacks?

  Okay, final question, do you feel rich today?

• 9:41Speaker 01

  I do.

• 9:42Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  I do feel rich. I have flexibility in my life, like I can make decisions. I have two kids by myself, which so many people will say, you're so brave, I could never and. I, I am fully transparent in that I have incredible two nannies that.

• 10:03Haley Sacks?

  Alternate.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Alternate and work with me full time. So I kind of have, it's like having a, a wife, you know, full time, 24 seven, you know, seven days a week who is just dedicated on the kids and they're thriving. So that to me is, you know, being able to have kids who are able to thrive and be happy and send them to good schools and, and I think like bigger picture too, like the stock market goes ups and down. We saw, you know, craziness, but I think I hit a point a couple of years ago where I'm just like, I'm just not going to worry about that day to day. Not stressing about the day to day fluctuations of the market. And I think as I've heard you say, it's not timing the market, but that's time in the market and just letting those lessons finally sink in over time as you get older.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  I think that's, that's, you know, I do feel rich in that respect.

• 10:49Haley Sacks?

  Okay, so we're going to talk about credit cards today. Obviously you are the points guy, but before we jump into that, I want to know what credit cards do you actually carry? Like what heat are you packing, Brian?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Twenty eight credit cards. Now, I also have small businesses and I also, you know, as part of the Points Guy, a funny deal note that I negotiated when I sold the company many years ago is that I was able to put the expenses for the business on my personal credit card.

• 11:20Haley Sacks?

  So crazy.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  So that I'm the Points Guy and when I sold to a big publicly traded company, I was like, my travel patterns will break whatever travel policies exist.

• 11:30Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  And I don't want that tension. So I was like, let me put the company expense on my card. I need the points. They were like, no brainer. Yeah, you gotta practice what you preach.

• 11:37Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  That has like, that is how I get most of my points. You know, at the Points Guy, we spent a lot of money on internet ads, Google, Facebook, Microsoft Bing. That's what I was thinking. So I get to put a portion of those on my credit card and

• 11:50Haley Sacks?

  That's a

• 11:50Speaker 01

  last year.

• 11:51Haley Sacks?

  Genius, Brad.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  The biggest points thing happened to me last year when Chase Sapphire, they refreshed and they came out with their new Chase Sapphire Reserve for business. And when I was getting the information on it, I saw one thing that I, like, the time stopped and it was triple points on internet advertising.

• 12:08Haley Sacks?

  Whoa.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Unlimited.

• 12:11Haley Sacks?

  Stop.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  So up until that point, there was Amex Business Gold, there was Chase Inc. and they all had $150,000 a year caps.

• 12:17Haley Sacks?

  Whoa.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Imagine me, sometimes I spend a million dollars a month.

• 12:20Haley Sacks?

  Damn.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  So I was having, I had multiple cards and, you know, once I would max out the 150, it was like playing credit card roulette. I'd have to put, and the Sapphire Reserve business now is 3X Unlimited. So for anyone out there listening,

• 12:30Haley Sacks?

  That's made for you.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Even if you have a small business doing, you know, Instagram ads or whatever, this is a game changer.

• 12:35Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, that's major.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  So many people follow the Points Guy, even doctors, doctors who do a lot of spend or internet ads. This is like the game changing card for me. So now, you know, my points earn because of that new card. That's the number one card I spend the most on. That's not my personal spend. Personal spend is Capital One Venture X surprises a lot of people. That card is two miles per dollar on every dollar you spend.

• 13:01Haley Sacks?

  People love that card. I have that card.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  When you think about it, 2X on everything, because that's, you know, I spend a lot of money, you know, even when you're paying tuition, you could even pay taxes on that card. Because the government charges 1.89%.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  To pay, but when you're paying on a Venture X card, you're getting two valuable cap one miles. And then other cards, just I think for, you know, the urban dwelling, young person, Amex Gold.

• 13:26Haley Sacks?

  Oh, Amex Gold's the best. Like, people really play themselves with the Platinum stuff. And I'm like, just get the gold. Like, you are not traveling enough. You are eating out. That's what you do mostly.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  You eat out for X, not just eating out, but also groceries.

• 13:39Haley Sacks?

  So that's like what we're spending on. The gold is my...

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Gold is like...

• 13:43Haley Sacks?

  That's everything.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  You know, Platinum is great if you get, you know, for perks, if you fly Delta, if you like Centurion. Platinum has its place, but as a points earning card, so many people think the Platinum is the best Amex points card, and it's not.

• 13:55Haley Sacks?

  No, people think that just because it's the highest level that you're going to get the most, but you have to actually look at the fine print and think about how you are spending as a consumer.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 02

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• 15:05Haley Sacks?

  Can you name all 28 of your children? Like, let's see it. Rapid fire.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  This is a very vulnerable moment for me. I've always been asked, people just will stop at, oh, I have 28 credit cards. Wow, that's crazy. My credit score's, you know, near perfect.

• 15:19Haley Sacks?

  No, I need a list.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Haley is the first.

• 15:21Haley Sacks?

  Receipt timeline.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  She wants receipts. Receipts, timeline. Okay, here we go.

• 15:39Haley Sacks?

  Ryan, you did it.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Did you get it?

• 15:41Haley Sacks?

  Twenty-eight.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  I think that there's probably one other out there missing, but uh.

• 15:45Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 15:46Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 15:48Haley Sacks?

  What was your first credit card?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Oh my God, my first credit card was the University of Pittsburgh. When I was in college, they gave me an umbrella.

• 15:56Haley Sacks?

  Oh, they're always giving you a free time.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  And I had no money and funny enough, I was an idiot. I went on spring break. I wasn't working. I got into credit card debt.

• 16:05Haley Sacks?

  Duh.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  And I went home for college or holiday break and I remember going to a diner, smoking cigarettes with my friends. And I drank two pots of coffee and I came home and had heart palpitations and I hadn't told my parents I was in credit card debt. And I remember I was bugging out.

• 16:20Haley Sacks?

  How about, how much was it?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  It was like five or six grand, but I couldn't pay it.

• 16:23Haley Sacks?

  And what was it from?

• 16:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I was stupid with credit. I went to Ireland on spring break. I couldn't afford it. I, I, I made all of the mistakes. I sat down with my parents. They were like, you're an idiot. We're not paying for this for you. And they're like, well, what we will do is you're going to get a student loan to pay off your bills. And I paid off that student loan for like five years into like working in New York City. And I also.

• 16:46Haley Sacks?

  What was the interest rate?

• 16:48Speaker 01

  It was crazy. I don't even know. I mean, oh, the, the student loan was maybe 12%, but I think my card was 30. It was like this, you know, I was in quicksand. So I understand. I also made the dumb choice. I skipped out on all my bills my senior year when I moved to New York. I was like, they'll never catch me in New York City. And then I, I actually got wage garnishing notices from creditors.

• 17:08Haley Sacks?

  Wow.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  When I was 22, working my $45,000 a year job. So I was like.

• 17:13Haley Sacks?

  So you learned the system through being in the system?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  I mean, I, this is a secret. I don't know if I've ever told this, but when I, my parents were like, we're not helping you. You got to figure this life out in New York.

• 17:23Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  The fifth floor walk up. I was living with roommates with cats and like this.

• 17:27Haley Sacks?

  Oh God, a cat, Ryan.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  I know, but I was like, I'm going to figure this financial thing out and it took me years. And funny enough, my credit got so bad that when I got my job at Morgan Stanley as a college recruiter, they wouldn't give me the corporate AMX and I had no money to travel for.

• 17:42Haley Sacks?

  Damn, that A is a crazy thing about credit that people don't realize is that your employer can research it and like can know your credit.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:49Haley Sacks?

  But also, I feel like it's a good example of people. One of the things that keeps people from taking control of their finances, I think, is this idea that it's like too late or that they're missing a chip or something to do it. But actually, everyone starts from the same place. Like Warren Buffett was born financially illiterate. The points guy didn't.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  I was in credit card debt. And by the way, my secret that I don't tell often is that I actually took a payday loan. When I was 23, living in New York, I had no money. All of my, I had my student loan.

• 18:19Haley Sacks?

  I might have a rash.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  I know. It, it, and funny enough, that payday loan was so predatory. I tried to pay it off. It was a never ending loan because you would pay it off and it would be a $40 fee.

• 18:29Haley Sacks?

  Yes.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Funny enough, years later, I'm watching a Netflix documentary on the scoundrels that ran that paycheck that he went to jail. He was at, he was from Kansas City. They ran this payday. It is.

• 18:40Haley Sacks?

  We got a right to him.

• 18:41Speaker 01

  It is criminal and I experienced it because I, I refused. My parents weren't giving me money. I was actually picking up odd jobs in New York City on Craigslist. I was pretending to be a, a sommelier. I would do, like, I did an Indian dating event in the East Village for 200 bucks, pretending to be a sommelier. And I broke the cork, opening the bottle.

• 18:59Haley Sacks?

  Of course.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  But I am so thankful to my parents for pushing us like, you want to live this rich life?

• 19:05Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  I've always wanted to be rich. My parents were very, I'm one of four kids. My mom's one of 10. They did well, but I thought we were poor growing up.

• 19:13Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  And I am so thankful. They did not give me the brand new car when I was 16.

• 19:17Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  I was so mad. My, my parents were like, you're smart, you can figure it out.

• 19:22Haley Sacks?

  And you did. You were being a victim of the system to gaming the system.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Which is funny, I had horrible credit, payday loan, couldn't get a car, credit card. And now I'm like the world's expert on credit cards. So anyone listening out there, trust me.

• 19:34Haley Sacks?

  They could do it.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  This is a system, it's, you know, credit is not that complicated. You can make mistakes, but the biggest, you know, FICO lists on their website, like, you just got to pay your bills down. One of my very good friends, who's 40 years old. You know, lives a jet setting life, but behind the scenes was crumbling financially. I actually worked with him recently. He had huge credit card debt. You can call the credit card companies, negotiate.

• 19:57Haley Sacks?

  I always say this, and I actually have free scripts for credit card negotiation.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  I was shocked because I haven't.

• 20:03Haley Sacks?

  No, you can call them, but everything is negotiable. Your wireless bill is negotiable.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  They want to figure it out.

• 20:08Haley Sacks?

  Everything is.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  So take your head out of the sand.

• 20:11Haley Sacks?

  Yeah. Take action.

• 20:13Speaker 01

  But the good thing about it is just focus. You gotta, you know, it's, you gotta make more money and spend less money. It's a simple equation, but the beautiful thing about credit is once you, A, just make every payment every month. That's number one. Number two is, you know, your debt to credit ratio. Just paying down your bills every month, you will see your score start to rise. It'll be small, but do not, you know, a lot of people want the easy way out. Let me just declare bankruptcy or whatever that, you know, you want to avoid at all costs.

• 20:40Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you don't want to do that. But sometimes to get out of debt, if you're in a lot of credit card debt, it makes sense to like, do like a debt consolidation company, and which will hurt your credit in the short term. But usually your credit is already not great and you could fix your credit. Like your credit is quite fixable.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  It's fixable.

• 21:02Haley Sacks?

  You know, so mostly just figuring out what's the quickest, cheapest path to paying it off.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  And then stick to it. You know, you have to bring down your expenses.

• 21:12Haley Sacks?

  So you're the points guy, so you have 28 cards, but for the regular person setting up their wallet, how many cards should we have? And like, what's the mix of cards that you should have? Because I feel like that's just so confusing.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I don't recommend everyone getting 28 cards. By the way, you may think 28 is crazy. I know people who have over 100 credit cards in this game. So there is a, you know, I'm a expert. I mean, there are people who are like, have hundreds of credit cards and perfect credit scores, right? So that's the thing that, you know.

• 21:41Haley Sacks?

  You could, it's a full-time job.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  But it's a full-time job. Not everyone is cut out for it.

• 21:44Haley Sacks?

  The juice is not worth the squeeze unless you're the points guy.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I would recommend in general, I think a healthy credit card portfolio. Now, this is, we're coming from the mindset of you're going to pay your bills off every month on time.

• 21:56Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  If you're not financially like set up to do that, if you in your gut right now think, oh no, I'm going to spend too much, don't do this, right? But if you've got your finances down. You absolutely, I think five credit cards is a healthy place to be. You have a Visa, a MasterCard, an Amex and a double, you know, maybe one more Visa or MasterCard and at least an Amex. But I like having at least one from all three of the, you know, big credit card networks. Cause sometimes, especially when traveling, they may not take one or the other. So.

• 22:25Haley Sacks?

  That's a really good point.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  But then just look at what you spend the most money on and.

• 22:29Haley Sacks?

  To choose which one it makes, like which type of each card makes the most sense. But like, how do you know if you should get an annual fee card?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  In general, I believe strongly in annual fee cards. Most no annual fee cards are not worth it. And this is a good point. Some people say it sounds too good to be true. Like, look, the credit card companies are spending more money on you to get you as a customer.

• 22:48Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, they want to acquire you.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Don't ask questions. That's the banks. And trust me, look at the, you know, look at the stock market for all the banks. They're doing well. So never feel bad about taking your fair share.

• 22:57Haley Sacks?

  But is there like a special, a specific salary that you should have that correlates to what credit cards you should have? Like, how do you know?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Well, I think once we start getting into the annual fee realm, so I think anyone should, you know, a $95 a year card, the Chase Sapphire Preferred is an excellent starter card. You know, Capital One Venture, Amex Green or Amex Gold Card. It's a little bit higher. It's like that in between, but look at the, don't just look at the annual fee. Look at all the perks you get, the benefits, and do the math for yourself of will I actually get more than the, than the annual fee? Now, if you want to get a premium card, I do believe, and look, I work with all the credit card companies. Each one has its own, but a no brainer for me is the Capital One Venture X. So that, that card is $395. You get 300 a year in travel, which is easy to use.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  So that's $95 a year, but then they also give you 10,000 bonus miles a year. And those 10,000 at a minimum are worth a hundred dollars. So you're now making $5. And this is a card that gets you access to their beautiful lounges. So, and 2X on everything.

• 24:02Haley Sacks?

  Okay, great.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So that is a card. Some of the other cards that are seven, $800, you might have to do more of the math. But the Capital One Venture X card is to me, the. An easy first premium credit card, especially if you live in a city. Their lounge at JFK is 24/7 at Terminal 4, which is awesome. So anyway.

• 24:22Haley Sacks?

  So the Capital One Venture X, we think everyone should have.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  It's a no brainer.

• 24:26Haley Sacks?

  You get, because you can get your $300 in travel and then you get.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  And you get the $100 a year minimum in that 10,000 points.

• 24:33Haley Sacks?

  Bonus.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  So it's a 395 card. You, I am confident in saying they're essentially paying you. Plus, this card has all these other perks like lounge access and the Capital One lounges are stunning.

• 24:43Haley Sacks?

  24 hours at JFK. So then we, you said we needed five cards.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  So a 395, no brainer, Capital One Venture X, in my humble opinion. Number two, Amex Gold is 325, but comes with a lot of different perks and credits. And that 4X on dining and grocery, which everyone spends on. So that I feel confident in that if you're spending money, even if you're cooking or going out, you're gonna get the value back.

• 25:07Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, you're gonna get your value.

• 25:08Speaker 01

  I think I love the Chase Ultimate Rewards ecosystem. I think a Chase Sapphire Preferred is a great entry level card. If you're looking at getting a premium credit card, I, I mean, Chase points are really valuable. The Chase lounges are gorgeous and.

• 25:25Haley Sacks?

  But how do you know, like, I feel like, okay, Hailey Bieber did an ad for Chase.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:29Haley Sacks?

  And like, we're seeing like the Foster sisters and like they're really coming through as being like, okay, like the girlies need to have their, like, almost $800 a year annual fee Chase card. But then Amex also seems like amazing. So how do you decide which annual, which high annual fee card you should get?

• 25:50Speaker 01

  So the Amex Platinum teams up with Uber, Chase Sapphire is with Lyft. So when you look at the Chase Sapphire Reserve, off the bat, you take off 300, because the Chase Sapphire Reserve $300 credit is easy. It's automatic. You don't have to opt in. You don't have to select an airline. So really Sapphire Reserve, 795 is really 495. That's where you're starting off with before looking into all the other perks and benefits. They have a StubHub, they have Lyft, they have DoorDash, they have Apple. So if you're playing, paying for Apple TV. In my opinion, they have, I think it's our team calculated like somewhere near $2,000 in yearly perks. Even if you're not getting half of them, remember it's not a 7.95 card. It's really, in my opinion, a 4.95 card.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  So if you've got 2,000 in perks to choose from, you really only have to get 25% to be even. And that's just for the annual fee. And that's without factoring in your lounge access, right? So if you're a girlie that travels, likes lounge access, then getting one of these premium cards, it is, you have to do the math yourself.

• 26:53Haley Sacks?

  One airport water is 4.95.

• 26:56Speaker 01

  I value each lounge visit at at least $50. If you have the Sapphire, Amex gets you one, you just yourself in. Amex lounges are great. There's a lot of them.

• 27:05Haley Sacks?

  They're also so overcrowded.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  So that's the other thing. Everyone had these cards. They are cracking down. In 2026, there's new rules with guests and everything with Capital One. Chase still allows two guests.

• 27:16Haley Sacks?

  That is lit.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  So.

• 27:18Haley Sacks?

  So I could bring mystery.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  My, my main point to people is get yourself down. Can you make the annual fee easily by looking at the credits and saying, yeah, I would have actually spent that money? Are you spending money on Apple TV right now? Well, you could get it for free on the Chase card. Your DoorDash, Lyft, the 300 Travel, they also have hotel credits at nice hotels. Now, when you're looking at the travel credits, sometimes like the hotels with Amex or Chase, you have to book through them. The hotels might be a little bit more expensive. They might not. There's two night stays. So those ones are a little bit harder. No one can tell you if you're going to get the value. But if you look and you say, well, I'm going to stay in this many hotels this year. I'm going to this many weddings. Those hotel credits I will use.

• 27:54Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Then you might be getting, you know, way more than the annual fee. Plus, so the lounge access is like the cherry on top. And then what I want to, you know, let people know, when you have these premium cards with the credit card companies, your service level goes up too. So what I mean by that is like when you have an issue with the vendor. I'll give an example. My, my son, when I was going on my book drawer, I had these beautiful permanent markers. He drew all over a $1,500 leather, beautiful new chair that I had gotten.

• 28:21Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  He ruined it.

• 28:22Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  But a lot of these parts-

• 28:24Haley Sacks?

  Or he made art.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  He, it's actually art.

• 28:26Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, it's art.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  But I actually filed a claim with Capital One because they have purchase protection.

• 28:31Haley Sacks?

  So I bought my mom a dress for Mother's Day. This like Acris dress. It was like $800. And she has a dog with Pika, which who's seen the Charlize Theron movie where she plays the woman with Pika, where you can't stop eating anything inanimate objects. This dog has eaten couches. She's eaten mango pits. She eats rags, like whatever she'll eat it. So obviously they left, shut the dress out. The dog was like yum, dinner, ate the dress. Amex replaced. I got the messed up dress fixed. Now mom and I are matching. Thank you, Amex.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Truly, and so have you ever ordered something online? It didn't fit. They won't take it back. So Capital One and a lot of them have return or extended warranty. So this is where, so on the points level alone, with the annual or with the signup bonus, you're getting thousands in value. So that's your first couple years of annual fee, plus the perks and fees, plus the service, and then plus all these other perks like protections. You know, a lot of these top premium cards, you know, Chase Sapphire Reserve, if you're delayed six hours or more, they're paying $500 for you and everyone on your, to get gorgeous hotels.

• 29:35Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Don't sit there and beg for a Motel 6.

• 29:38Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  From the airline. If you've got a Sapphire Reserve, you're booking yourself at the-

• 29:42Haley Sacks?

  You're a food cats, baby.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they're reimbursing you. So that's the aha moment I want people to have. Don't just look at the annual fee.

• 29:49Haley Sacks?

  Obviously, we love rules. Points Guy, Mrs. Dow Jones, we like to give people rules. But I would say the core of our work is also to look at things personally. Finance is personal, personal finance, but also credit card choice, personal.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  I'm so passionate about this. And once you, and I love the aha moments people have, once you, you know, if you're listening to this right now, you want to travel this year, you have all these weddings, you can't make it work financially, credit cards can help you do that if you're, if you play the game right. And that's what I love about it. And your credit score will go up.

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• 31:20Haley Sacks?

  You have 28 cards. Just sort of back to that. When you make a purchase, how are you figuring out what is the right card for each moment?

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it depends on just not how much you're earning, but also what currencies you need. And as you start using points, certain currencies work better for your needs. So I would tell people, you know, for all the major categories that you can, but there's just, there's not cards out there that are going to give you dental 5X, right? Like there's only a certain amount. That's why my baseline card that almost everything else, my online shopping goes on my Capital One Venture X, 2X on everything. So the goal in my eyes is just to earn more than one point per dollar on every purchase.

• 31:57Haley Sacks?

  That's good.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  And beyond credit cards, this is an aha moment I want everyone to have is online shopping portals. So for shopping online, there's Rakuten. There's a website called Cash Back Monitor where you can type in whatever retailer you want to shop at and it'll tell you what cash back you can get. Or you can get airline miles. Amex, all the credit card companies have their own shopping portals where you can earn extra points. So never click directly

• 32:23Haley Sacks?

  No.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  to a retailer. Always shop through portals because you're going to earn the points for paying for the purchase on your points credit card, plus the portal points.

• 32:30Haley Sacks?

  Say those two portals one more time.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  So Rakuten, and then if you go to cashbackmonitor.com, you can type in any retailer and it'll show you all the different portals. American Airlines, Hilton, whatever. So if you want to get more American miles, you could, you know, shop through the, I shop through American Airlines shopping because the American miles you earn for your online shopping count to your elite status. That's one of the only airlines that'll do that. And American Airlines miles are actually among the most valuable.

• 32:57Haley Sacks?

  No, we love American Airlines. The other thing about online shopping too is always price check. That doesn't have to do with points.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I love all your tips on, and also don't buy the hype on Amazon, etc.

• 33:09Haley Sacks?

  Like the, even if you go to, like if you're in a store about to buy something, look at it online first. Like that's happened to me twice and now it will never happen again where I've bought something that then I was able to find online for cheaper.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  I'll end with credit cards. So your Saffires, we're talking mostly about like the bank cards, which in my opinion are the most valuable. I do think there's room to have a co-brand card. So if you fly American a lot or Delta, the co-brand cards, while they're not the most valuable points because you're only earning in like an airline or hotel, whereas the credit card points you can transfer to a lot. Having airline hotel cards will give you perks that are valuable, like checked bags, priority boarding, etc. So I do leave space in your wallet for the airline you fly the most because $95 a year, but you're getting $100 per trip and free checked bags. That's a no brainer.

• 33:57Haley Sacks?

  That's amazing.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  But don't spend everything you have on an airline card because the credit card points are way more valuable.

• 34:03Haley Sacks?

  Obviously, like you're sexy, gorgeous man, you're on the market, and you've been in a lot of relationships. So what's the deal with, you know?

• 34:16Haley Sacks?

  People that you're dating and like their credit cards. Do you ever give them a credit card? What's like a credit card red flag for you?

• 34:22Speaker 01

  You know, a debit card's a red flag.

• 34:23Haley Sacks?

  Oh, that's happened.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  No, I don't like to judge people. I mean, I have been in bad financial straits before. I think for me personally, I would, you know, I love when people take control over their finances. No, you know, so I don't wanna, you don't need to be a points person. You know, that, but you know, if you have your financial house together, that's important for me. I have kids. I want someone who has their, you know, financial life together. But more important than financially, just like I want someone who's fun and is a good traveler. I've dated people who are, have fear of flying and that just doesn't work unfortunately.

• 34:59Haley Sacks?

  Should you add your girlfriend or boyfriend to your card?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  There are pluses and minuses to this. The plus side is if you have good credit, you can help your partner get good credit. But you also are responsible for everything they do. So if you add someone for good credit, what I recommend is you can give them a line on yours, but then put their spending down to $1. So they can't spend on your card, but just note if they start getting horrible credit, it could impact you. Most of the time, the credit card companies, they don't take, they only give the good credit. But if you see your score going down, you can always take them off. But in general, you know, that's a, I will just say, once you get married, go to two-player mode where don't have the same credit card as your partner. Get different ones. You guys are maximizing different currencies, sign up bonuses. Don't be an additional user.

• 35:45Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  Because you're really limiting the amount of points you could bring in instead of having two players, each having their own strategy.

• 35:51Haley Sacks?

  That's a really good, really good tip.

• 35:56Haley Sacks?

  And you have kids too. Like a lot of people put their kids on their cards super young so that they will, when they're 18, have this long credit history. Have you done that?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  So I haven't done it yet. I think some credit cards won't let you do it till they're 16. I think, you know, when the day comes, I would do that. But I think what's more important than credit cards is starting to invest for your kids very early.

• 36:18Haley Sacks?

  We're all about that.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  So that's where I would say focus most, you know, your kids, if you have good credit yourself, just teach your kids good credit habits. My parents are amazing. We didn't really talk about finances much. I'm not blaming my idiotic actions in college on my parents, but I do wish there was a lot more, you know, we didn't have podcasts at all when I was, when I was a little kid. So I'm not worried about my kids understanding finances.

• 36:41Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  Because my favorite thing my parents ever did for me was made me hustle. And I know my kids are growing up in a much more, you know, privileged lifestyle than I have, but I'm gonna assuredly make sure that they have those same values because if

• 36:55Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  you go through life.

• 36:56Haley Sacks?

  I feel like you're like shocked. You're like, my money is my money. You have to figure out your own money.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Oh, no, we're spending my money. I joke with my kids. They don't really understand what I'm saying. I was like, do you want to go to Antarctica or do you want to trust fund? And they're like, Antarctica. You know, I

• 37:10Haley Sacks?

  You got consent.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  But I'm not living my life to squirrel away money for my kids to spend. No, like, the joy of my life has been figuring it out from payday loans to becoming a credit card expert and selling businesses and investing in them. Like, that to me is, now, it may not be the same for my kids, but like, they for sure will have a work ethic.

• 37:31Haley Sacks?

  Love that. What does the perfect wallet look like? So like a capsule wallet, if you will. So give us your everyday card, your travel card, your eating out card, maybe a cash back card, and then that beginner card. So if you have no credit, then you can then like earn your credit.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so

• 37:48Haley Sacks?

  Build our perfect wallet, Brian.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Card. So if you're starting from scratch, bad credit, get a secured card, six months of spending, paying it off on time, you'll be shocked at how much your score will go up.

• 37:56Haley Sacks?

  It's crazy.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  From that point on, you will get an intro, no annual fee card. I love the Freedom Unlimited. You start with the Freedom Unlimited because that opens you up into the Chase ecosystem. And then once your score keeps going up and you have a good relationship with Chase, you get the Sapphire Preferred, or you maybe even just goes directly to a Reserve card, which I personally love. I do think Amex is an excellent company. You want to have an Amex card. Amex Gold is a no brainer.

• 38:20Haley Sacks?

  For eating out.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, eating out is your Amex and groceries. Amex Gold, no brainer. Capital One Venture for your everyday, two miles on everything. That's $95. I do recommend just going to the Venture X at $3.95,

• 38:33Haley Sacks?

  I think we're all getting that after

• 38:35Speaker 01

  That's your everyday. But let's just say an airline card. I'm gonna go with like getting a, you know, an American Airlines because those miles are really valuable. Also, Alaska Airlines is valuable.

• 38:46Haley Sacks?

  Oh, man, Alaska's so good.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Alaska is an amazing loyalty program. It's One World, so it tunes up with a lot. And then, you know,

• 38:53Haley Sacks?

  Stay away from Virgin.

• 38:55Speaker 01

  Virgin, you know, it's a fine airline, but the program.

• 38:59Haley Sacks?

  It's bad and their website never works.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:02Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Oh, and then let's just say, so you don't even want to travel. You want to focus on your financial health in 2026. A city double cash card. It's 2% back when you paid in full every month.

• 39:11Haley Sacks?

  Great.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  2% is a gold standard in terms of cash back.

• 39:15Haley Sacks?

  Awesome.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  However, there is, you know, if you are into crypto, you could be getting the, there's a Coinbase card with like 3% back.

• 39:20Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, that's they're doing a big bonus.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Which actually is a pretty.

• 39:24Haley Sacks?

  Let's have.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  Compelling offer.

• 39:26Haley Sacks?

  Yeah, it is.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  So I'm not, I'm actually looking at getting that Coinbase 3% back because I spend a lot.

• 39:30Haley Sacks?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  You can think about it, you can make money paying taxes because you're getting 3% back and paying 1.89 to pay them. So that's kind of cool to think about making money paying taxes.

• 39:39Haley Sacks?

  Okay, I'm getting it too. Uh, whatever with Brian, I'm like ordering a new card. Okay, one question, people are obsessed with the Amazon Visa card.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:47Haley Sacks?

  Because everyone loves.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  If you spend a lot on Amazon, the Amazon card can be a great deal.

• 39:53Haley Sacks?

  Okay.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  That's one of your biggest expenses. So bottom line, after this episode, look at what your full spend in, you know, 2025 was. Look at what you spend in every major category. And then you want to align a card, you know, the built cards will be coming out in February. If you're paying rent or mortgage, those could make a lot of sense. So I would hold space potentially for a built card. They will have a no annual fee.

• 40:15Haley Sacks?

  Whoa, okay.

• 40:18Haley Sacks?

  I am, I'm very impressed. You really are the points guy, the penultimate expert.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Why not the ultimate?

• 40:26Haley Sacks?

  Okay, the ultimate, the ultimate. I don't know what penultimate means. So I thought it was higher.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:31Haley Sacks?

  Okay, so I thought that it was, that it was the double X.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  No, we can just stay with ultimate.

• 40:35Haley Sacks?

  Okay, ultimate, ultimate, ultimate. Number one, you know, like no, the competition is not even close. Like we've got the master. Okay, so we got the most insane question from the audience. So I need to, it's actually a voicemail.

• 40:49Speaker 05

  Hi there, uh, my name's Jonah. So I'm thinking about applying for the Chase Sapphire Preferred card because I have some upcoming trips. My only real concern is the signup bonus. Uh, my travel isn't for a while and I'm not sure if I can hit that 4K spending in three months. Or even the 6K requirement in six months. So here's my question. Can I buy gift cards like Costco gift cards since I shop there all the time, uh, to help me reach this minimum requirement? Um, is that allowed or does Chase consider that something against their terms? Worst case, I would try and buy around 6K in Costco gift cards, which would easily last me the whole year of shopping there. Um, is this considered a bad idea or, uh, something people usually do?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  So this is a great idea in general.

• 41:32Haley Sacks?

  Oh, Jonah!

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Gift cards do not show up as gift cards. They show up as the merchant. What you can't do is buy money orders or cash equivalents. That's not going to count towards a signup bonus, but, you know, double check the Ts and Cs, but in general, I actually recommend this, you know, with, if you have an Amex Gold card, which is 4X at supermarkets, you know, and at almost every supermarket, you've got your big gift card wall.

• 41:53Haley Sacks?

  Yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  So this is a great way because we know Amex is 4X at supermarkets. You can buy Uber gift cards and essentially get 4X on your Uber spend by using your Gold card. But if you use an Amex Gold card directly with Uber, you're not going to get 4X. So gift cards, you know, this is a more advanced portion of, uh, this space, but absolutely you can buy gift cards to use in the future to hit a minimum spend. And Jonah, great point in making sure that you can hit the spend. We've talked a lot about these signup bonuses, but many of them require, uh, and as you get higher and higher bonuses, you may have to spend 6K within three months or so. And just to be clear, that starts from the second you're approved. A lot of people think it's the second you activate your card.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  So if you apply for a credit card and go on a three-week trip, the clock's ticking to hit that spend. And so many, if you don't do it within the rules, you will not get the bonus. So that's heartbreak we want to avoid. Also, the annual fee does not count towards the minimum spend. So do a little bit of research before you start and never bite off more than you can chew. But yes, you can prepay taxes, you can buy gift cards at most retailers and that will count. You will earn traditional points because when you buy it, something from a Costco, it's just going to show as a Costco purchase. It's not going to tell, they don't care what you actually bought.

• 43:07Haley Sacks?

  They're not like doing investigation.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Except if it's money orders, those will calculate, you know, uh, ring up differently in the system.

• 43:15Haley Sacks?

  Okay, well, I think that we're all gonna be buying some gift cards then. That's sort of genius.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, instead of giving cash for gifts or cash tips, you can, once you become a points person, I know I kind of been contradicting myself because I like to give cash. But in my early hustle days, I never gave cash as a wedding gift or baby shower gift. No, you're gonna get a Bed Bath & Beyond where I got Forex at the grocery store for buying that. So, once you start getting into that points mentality, but, you know, people just be happy they're getting a gift.

• 43:42Haley Sacks?

  You really inspired me. Like, I'm like, I feel like I have good points game, but I'm like, damn, I'm 2026, I'm about to like lock in, like, catch me next year at this time with like 28 cards, just like that day. Okay, watch out, world. It's happening. My goals have so many that I don't remember them all.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:01Haley Sacks?

  Just kidding.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Well, just remember to pay them all.

• 44:03Haley Sacks?

  I will, I will.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Let's end on that good financial wisdom.

• 44:06Haley Sacks?

  And never spend more than you can afford.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  Amen.

• 44:08Haley Sacks?

  Um, okay, thank you, Brian. Be sure to check out the Points Guy website and follow the Points Guy on Instagram for more. Is there anything that you want to promote?

• 44:16Speaker 01

  No, just the Points Guy, at the Points Guy on social, and then I'm at Brian Kelly personally, so you can see my personal journey. But, um, yeah, I think there's still a lot of huge deals out there, and I want everyone to be excited about the points game. It is constantly changing, but you absolutely can win at it.

• 44:33Haley Sacks?

  Stay rich. This is a Mrs. Dow Jones production for Sony Music Podcast.

• 44:41Speaker 06

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