Tucker & Piers Morgan Debate Foreign Aid, Hate Speech, NATO, Gun Control, & Is Zelensky a Dictator?

A dictator is someone who ignores elections and rules by violence. Zelensky meets that definition but Piers Morgan loves him anyway. (00:00) Why Is Piers Morgan Deeply in Love With Zelensky? (20:20) Zelensky Is Getting Rich From War (25:15) Should NATO Be Abolished? (40:07) Should the US Send Money to Israel? (46:30) Should Putin Be Assassinated? (47:30) The Morality of Nuclear War Paid partnerships with: Liberty Safe: Promo code “Tucker” at https://LibertySafe.com/Tucker Policygenius: Get your free life insurance quotes today at https://Policygenius.com/Tucker Eight Sleep: Get $350 off the Pod 4 Ultra at https://EightSleep.com/Tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Tucker Carlson?

  Pierce Morgan, sorry. Telling off-color jokes off-camera. Thank you so much.

• 0:36Speaker 02

  No, my pleasure.

• 0:37Tucker Carlson?

  We are in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.

• 0:38Speaker 02

  We are.

• 0:39Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not even gonna ask you how you wound up here. But I'm glad to see you.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Well, we're both here for the same reason, actually.

• 0:45Tucker Carlson?

  We've both gone into the oil business.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 0:48Tucker Carlson?

  I never, yeah. So I want to ask you, I want to start just on a very hostile note, okay? Because I feel like that's a good way to frame it.

• 0:55Speaker 02

  Good, good. Let's start with me to continue.

• 0:58Tucker Carlson?

  Zelensky is a hero. How could you say that?

• 1:22Speaker 02

  I don't agree with you about him or Ukraine. I went to interview him in Kyiv. And he's an extraordinary story, obviously, this comedian who becomes president, having played a comedian who was a president in a comedy show, right? And I've seen what you said about it. I mean, what's interesting to me on a bigger picture about Ukraine, Russia, your views, a lot of conservative views in America, is that 30 years ago, there would have been no element of resistance from the conservative side about taking on a Russian dictator who'd invaded a European country. I know it's a lot more complicated. I know the history, but a lot of very smart people on, a lot of people you've interviewed. And, you know, I do learn a lot each time I talk to them about all the history, obviously. My brother was a British Army Colonel.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  My sister married a British Army Colonel. They've all engaged in conflicts around. Around the world and so it's complicated. There's no doubt that on the Russian side, they believe they were provoked into doing this. I know that you have sympathy with that view. There's also no doubt from the Ukrainian side that they believe since the 90s, they've been this sovereign democratic country, albeit not perfect. You think deeply flawed. I think they've been imperfect, trying to improve. And Zelensky has actually, I think, been a force for good, not bad. But ultimately, what's happened now is that you have a situation where, as Donald Trump told me recently, you know, they, it's just the mowing fields now, where you have thousands

• 2:47Speaker 02

  of young men being killed, often on a daily basis, both sides. And no one's winning this war, it seems to me. And if anyone is going to win, it's likely to be Russia, not Ukraine. And then what happens? And that concerns me enormously. If the West allows Putin to just take the land he's taken, what guarantee do we have he won't try and take the rest of Ukraine? He took Crimea, he's back for more. I think he wants the whole of Ukraine. I think he won't stop there if he's allowed to get it. I think he's a pretty ruthless, evil Russian dictator.

• 3:21Tucker Carlson?

  How are we defining, just to define the term so we can follow the same. What's a dictator?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  A dictator to me is somebody, well, I would start by saying you have no respect for democratic norms, a free and fair election.

• 3:37Tucker Carlson?

  So like an unelected leader would be a dictator?

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Well, you wouldn't argue that Putin, for example, has free and fair elections?

• 3:44Tucker Carlson?

  No, I, I, I've never, I'm not that interested, actually. In, not really, it's not my country. I'm interested in my leaders, whether, you know, they have the consent of their people. It's not of great interest to me, whether, I, I do think Putin's like way more popular than, you know, Joe Biden.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  To his people?

• 4:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, more popular in Russia than Biden was ever.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  I wouldn't dispute that. But why, why are you so against Zelensky?

• 4:09Tucker Carlson?

  No, I'm just trying to understand when you, you dismiss Putin as a dictator, which totally fair, I guess, but I'm just trying to understand what you mean by dictator. So the first criterion for dictatorship is that you're not elected. And what else? Because Zelensky is obviously not elected either.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're...

• 4:26Tucker Carlson?

  So I'm just trying to kind of figure out what you're talking about.

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Well, your comparison with Zelensky and Putin over the last two years, I found baffling. Because you seem to think there's some moral equivalence between the two. And Zelensky hasn't illegally invaded another country. Do you not have a problem with what Putin's done?

• 4:42Tucker Carlson?

  Hold on, I just want to know what a dictator is. I just want to know, I mean, I bet, you know, maybe he's a better guy than Putin or whatever, and you could say some things about one or nothing, but like, if we're just going to define dictator, the first feature of a dictator is he's not elected. So Zelensky is not elected. He's also, well, he's banned a religious denomination. He's murdered his political opponents. He has banned a language group. Those all seem like features of dictatorship to me. Now, he has the support of the British intelligence agencies. That doesn't mean he's not a dictator, though. That sounds like a dictator. I mean, if I gave you a piece of paper and I'm like, here are some qualities of a European leader. You would say, well, that guy, that's not legitimate. That guy's a dictator. I can't support that. But his name's Zelensky.

• 5:26Tucker Carlson?

  And he was once a comedian, and he does my show, so he's not a dictator. I think it's a dictator.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Well, I would argue that if you look at the history of Ukraine since the 90s, since it became a, for want of a better phrase, democratic country, as they would say. Well, I mean, by the same criteria, you support Putin being popular in his country, I think just under 90% of Ukrainians voted for it. You wouldn't dispute that.

• 5:51Tucker Carlson?

  Well, first of all, the country had a coup sponsored by the United States government, the CIA, in 2014. So everything that happened subsequent to that, I don't think we could call part of the democratic process. But just Zelensky personally is not elected. He's not an elected leader. He rules by force. There's no election that gives him legitimacy. So that's not a defense of Putin. It's merely an attack on the idea that Putin's the only dictator in this contest. How is Zelensky not a dictator?

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Do you think Putin's a dictator?

• 6:22Tucker Carlson?

  I guess, yeah. I mean, I guess. I mean, if I stand up outside the Kremlin and say, "Down with Vladimir Putin," I'm probably in trouble. That's why I don't live in Russia.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Right. I certainly think that Ukraine has had a lot of corruption.

• 6:33Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, but is Zelensky a legitimate... How is he legitimate if he's not elected? Well, how could you support an unelected leader?

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Well, he's the president of a country.

• 6:39Tucker Carlson?

  Well, he calls himself that, but there's no election that made him president. He blew past the election and said, "Oh, there's a war. We can't have an election. We're gonna change the constitution." So how is that a legitimate leader? How could you support something like that? That seems, I don't know, like a dictatorship.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Well, I would categorize my support for him as supporting him against an illegal invasion by Russia.

• 6:57Tucker Carlson?

  So this is like why we support Stalin against Hitler, because...

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Well, in a way, we have that bad.

• 7:02Tucker Carlson?

  Hitler's bad, so Stalin must be good. But no, Stalin's also a dictator. So like, how about we just don't support dictators if we're against supporting dictators? Or you could take my position, which is, I don't want a dictatorship in my own country, because I live in a free country, but we're gonna have relations with a country that helps us most, up to a certain limit. We're not gonna like be allies with Stalin, because that's too evil. We're not, you know, Winston Churchill or, you know, FDR or something. We're not gonna go that far. But in general, we will deal with countries that help us. But when we start having moral conversations about other countries, then we have to stick by our own standards. And by your standard, you're supporting a dictator. I wonder how you can do that, Pierce Morgan.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  I'm not saying they're morally pure in Ukraine. I'm not saying they're not riddled with corruption.

• 7:39Tucker Carlson?

  But how is he not a dictator?

• 7:40Speaker 02

  No, no, here's my point to you. My defense of them...

• 7:42Tucker Carlson?

  Bloodthirsty dictator. Bloodthirsty dictator!

• 7:45Speaker 02

  My defense of them is based on the illegal invasion by Russia. You and I can argue about whether Russia was goaded and provoked into doing that. I do not think anything justifies what they actually did.

• 7:55Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, that's a totally fair position. I mean, I guess I disagree, sort of, but I don't think what you're saying is crazy at all.

• 8:02Speaker 02

  But the point I was gonna...

• 8:02Tucker Carlson?

  How is that more illegal than running a country without an election and banning a religious denomination? I don't understand that. So yeah, you could certainly say Putin did a lot of bad things. I would readily agree to that, to the extent I understand it. But we're supporting, my government and your government particularly, are supporting this dictator in Ukraine who's oppressing Christians, who is banning people's native language and books in their native language. He's a book burner! And like, that's totally cool because we hate Putin? That's not totally cool, is it?

• 8:31Speaker 02

  So would you just let Putin take Ukraine?

• 8:34Tucker Carlson?

  I would say, let's have an election in Ukraine and let the Ukrainian people elect their own leader and get rid of the midget dictator who now oppresses them, Zelensky. And I would definitely not support a guy who's not elected as a democratic figure because by definition, he's not. By definition. I don't care who his enemies are. He's not worth calling a beacon of democracy if he doesn't even have an... Why not have an election in Ukraine today? Because we've got a war. We had elections in our country during the Second World War, so did you. Like, why not hold him to democratic standards?

• 9:07Speaker 02

  I've got no problem with saying he should have an election.

• 9:09Tucker Carlson?

  What about banning a Christian denomination?

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't agree with any of those things.

• 9:12Tucker Carlson?

  Well, how could we ever support that?

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Because ultimately...

• 9:15Tucker Carlson?

  We're paying for that.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Because ultimately, we have to make a calculation about whether we're happy with Russia invading what is a sovereign European democratic country.

• 9:23Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's not a sovereign country. It was controlled by the United States. They installed their government in a coup in 2014. They're very puppet of the United States and Great Britain. They're not sovereign.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Do you think they're a democracy?

• 9:34Tucker Carlson?

  Well, their leader's not elected, so by definition, they're not a democracy. It may be a great place to vacation, or they've got, you know, we're getting a lot of money from, you know, defense deals, or they've got pretty women, and lots of great things you could say about the Ukrainians. They're actually great people, from what I can tell. I know a bunch of them, they're awesome. But they're definitely not a democracy.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  So should Putin just take the land?

• 9:52Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  So what happens?

• 9:54Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. We should stop paying for the slaughter of the entire Ukrainian population.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  You can't say you don't know. I mean, either he's allowed to take it or he isn't. Either we now say, yes, you take it.

• 10:02Tucker Carlson?

  Why is it up to us? I don't understand. We're not in...

• 10:05Speaker 02

  Well, who else can stop him?

• 10:06Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't know. I mean, when, you know, Congo invades its neighbors, like, it's not axiomatic that we should be involved in that.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  When Saddam invaded Kuwait, why did America go and support that?

• 10:18Tucker Carlson?

  Because there's oil here.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  Did you support that?

• 10:20Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I was in college and drunk.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Did you basically agree with it?

• 10:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of dumb ideas.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Storming, storming, bombing, what's going on?

• 10:26Tucker Carlson?

  I thought it was okay to drink beer in the morning.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Do you think, looking back at it, was it right to do what America did with the Allies? British were there too?

• 10:32Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Expel him from Kuwait? It wasn't a NATO country.

• 10:37Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that was, I mean, that's the kind of war that in theory I would support. You say, we have, you know, energy interests in this region. We want to keep it stable. When you start getting theoretical, like we're preserving democracy by supporting dictators.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  We take energy from Ukraine, though. There's an energy component to that.

• 10:54Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe. I don't see that.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  What I'm thinking is that the.

• 10:57Tucker Carlson?

  What I don't like is the moral overlay because it's fatuous and fraudulent. He's not, this is not a democratic country. He is a dictator. We've supported many dictators. We've supported Mobutu in Zaire, which no longer exists because he was a bulwark against the Soviets, we thought, or in a million others.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  No, but you've already said that you would support the expulsion of Saddam from Kuwait.

• 11:16Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know that I would.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Led by America. Well, you just said you did, right?

• 11:19Tucker Carlson?

  So, no, I said I was drunk in college. I haven't really thought. I said, but theoretically, you could make the case.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Because they had energy.

• 11:24Tucker Carlson?

  We're the United States. We need cheap energy. We're going to go to war to preserve cheap energy. You know, that's not a crazy thing to say. Maybe I could support that.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Right. So what's the difference, I don't know, between that and what's happened with Russia and Ukraine?

• 11:33Tucker Carlson?

  Well, because.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  We need Ukraine's energy.

• 11:35Tucker Carlson?

  The justification has.

• 11:35Speaker 02

  We need Ukraine's wheat. We do. Twenty-five percent of the world's wheat comes out of Ukraine.

• 11:40Tucker Carlson?

  I'm aware, which is why you probably don't want to kill all of its farmers and sell all of its farmland, which is what we've allowed to happen. Zelensky.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  We're not kidding. The Russians are.

• 11:50Tucker Carlson?

  Well, no, this war wouldn't exist if it weren't for the money and arms that we're sending to Ukraine. It would have been over in one day. It never would have started if we hadn't said.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  When you say over, what do you mean? What would have happened?

• 12:01Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think, I think it's very clear, and I don't know that anyone would disagree with this, that Russia would not have invaded eastern Ukraine if the Biden administration hadn't sent Kamala Harris to the Munich Security Conference in February of 2022 to say to Zelensky on camera, "We're going to make you a NATO country," meaning we're going to put American NATO arms on the Russian border. Like, you would not allow Chinese, your country probably would, but you shouldn't allow Chinese missiles in Scotland peering over Hadrian's Wall aimed at London. You'd be like, no, it's our, you know, you can't do that on our border. And the Russians are like, no, you can't do that on our border. And we're like, shut up. You're Russian. You have no right to determine what happens on your border. Piss off.

• 12:43Speaker 02

  But if...

• 12:43Tucker Carlson?

  Is that actually happened?

• 12:45Speaker 02

  But my point is, if the defence of expelling Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was that we have energy interests in that country.

• 12:53Tucker Carlson?

  Well, no one ever said that.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  And therefore, we should kick him out. But that's obviously what we all knew. And it was done very quickly and competently by General Norman Schwarzkopf, and it was great, great military operation. But surely, the principle and ideology is not different. And what's interesting is, every Republican, every Republican back in...

• 13:10Tucker Carlson?

  They're idiots. They support the Ukraine.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  No, I mean, every Republican in 91 would have supported that conflict.

• 13:16Tucker Carlson?

  Well, whether or not Republican members of the Senate support something is immaterial. It's my support of it, I can promise you.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Every Republican voter, I think, would have supported it. Whereas what's interesting...

• 13:25Tucker Carlson?

  Thirty-five years ago, I'm just saying.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  What's changed is, a lot of Republican supporters now, conservatives in America, are against supporting Ukraine anymore. And I'm curious about that change in what has been, what, 35 years? There's been a real sea change. And it may be because Americans are understandably war-weary, they're fed up with spending a lot of money on foreign wars, foreign conflicts. There's a good argument, America hasn't really won a foreign war since World War II. You know, you look at, from Vietnam onwards, endless quagmires, endless problems, Iraq, Afghanistan, and so on and so on. And I look at what's happened in Ukraine, and I'm just looking at it pragmatically, do we just let a Russian, do we let Russia, led at the moment by Vladimir Putin, who I would

• 14:10Speaker 02

  categorise as a dictator, do we let him just take what he wants? Even if he uses it and dresses it all up as, "I'm doing this because I fear about NATO encroachment", which may well be, may well be his reasoning, may well be his reasoning. But many people think it's not his reasoning.

• 14:26Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, many people think, they're just saying, like, "Why would you want to put US missiles on Russia's border? I don't understand. It's so obviously unacceptable for any sovereign nation to tolerate that."

• 14:36Speaker 02

  And here's the other part of the argument.

• 14:37Tucker Carlson?

  He has nuclear weapons, like, why would we want that?

• 14:39Speaker 02

  A lot of people, we have nuclear weapons too. A lot of the argument...

• 14:43Tucker Carlson?

  Do you guys have nuclear weapons?

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Eh? We do. Yes, we have nuclear weapons.

• 14:47Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Why? Nuclear deterrence.

• 14:50Tucker Carlson?

  Great Britain has nuclear weapons?

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Yes, we do.

• 14:53Tucker Carlson?

  You think that's a good idea?

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely. You know why?

• 14:57Tucker Carlson?

  You're freaking me out.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  If Ukraine had nuclear weapons, they wouldn't have been invaded. Can we agree on that? We told them to give up their nuclear deterrent.

• 15:05Tucker Carlson?

  If the West hadn't said, "We're going to use you as a staging ground for intimidating Russia," like, why would we want to do that? Why not just allow? What we've done is pushed Russia into the Chinese.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  And many people would say.

• 15:17Tucker Carlson?

  And how does that help us?

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Many people in that region say, "Actually, what's happened to Ukraine is precisely why they should have been in NATO." Because if they had been in NATO, Putin wouldn't have invaded them.

• 15:27Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  And also, they say.

• 15:29Tucker Carlson?

  Many people say that.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Also say, "If we hadn't collectively, basically bullied Ukraine into giving up their nuclear deterrent, he wouldn't have done it either, because they would have had a nuclear weapon to defend themselves."

• 15:38Tucker Carlson?

  This is super crazy.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Is it crazy?

• 15:40Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, it is.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  Crazier than your theories?

• 15:42Tucker Carlson?

  Well, actually, I don't, I don't think, I mean, I have a million theories, but these are not among them. It's not a theory to say that Russia moved into eastern Ukraine because the United States wouldn't give up on pushing for Ukraine admission into NATO, when NATO did not want Ukraine.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  But there's also.

• 15:59Tucker Carlson?

  The criteria for admission, so.

• 16:01Speaker 02

  But I think you're only giving half a picture. I'm not, I'm not oblivious to that, but I would add this component to it, which is also not surely beyond the realms of fantasy. Vladimir Putin knows that a lot of that part of eastern Ukraine, they still speak Russian. He has resented the breakup of the Soviet Union famously, and that actually, he wanted to take back land that he believes should have, should belong to Russia.

• 16:24Tucker Carlson?

  Banning people who speak their language.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Should belong to Russia.

• 16:25Tucker Carlson?

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• 19:25Speaker 02

  Did you accept that?

• 19:26Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's true of—look, I'm not an expert. I've interviewed Putin. You know, I've been there a couple of times. I don't speak Russian, so I hope I don't get over my skis and pretend to know things that I don't. But what's very obvious is, they have an interest and have for over 300 years in controlling Crimea, Crimea, where their fleet is based. They had a referendum in Crimea. The people of Crimea are Russian and want to remain part of the Russian Federation. So, he didn't take Crimea. It's Russian. It's filled with Russians. They had a referendum that nobody disputes. People should be allowed to choose their own government. That's the basic precept of democracy.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  But he did take Crimea.

• 20:03Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. Should people be allowed to choose their own government?

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:08Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. So, the people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to align with the Russian government. So, that's illegitimate why?

• 20:14Speaker 02

  When did they do that?

• 20:16Tucker Carlson?

  Uh, right after the coup in 15, I think.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Right, so after they'd been invaded? Why do you think—well, why do you think—why do you think so many Russians vote for Putin in Russia?

• 20:26Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think it was invaded. Russia has controlled Crimea for 300 years.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it wasn't—

• 20:32Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, it is—there are Russians—

• 20:33Speaker 02

  It wasn't— It wasn't Russia's. And in the same way that—that—you say, "The people of Crimea voted overwhelmingly to vote." Of course they did. They would have been killed if they hadn't. Same way as in Russia.

• 20:43Tucker Carlson?

  In a secret ballot?

• 20:43Speaker 02

  The same way Russia—

• 20:44Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, wait, wait, hold on. So, you're saying that the election was conducted under duress? And people's votes were known to the Russian government? I don't think that's true. I think it was a secret ballot.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  I'm saying it's exactly the same way that people in Russia vote for Putin. You think it's an overwhelming show of support for him. A lot of it is driven by fear.

• 21:01Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. That may or may not be true. I don't know, but—

• 21:03Speaker 02

  You don't think that's true?

• 21:04Tucker Carlson?

  The only measure we have of popular consent is an election. And when conducted by secret ballot, if we think it's not being—it's not the 2020 election. It's like kind of a legitimate election. That's what we go with. And I'm ju— Is there—have you ever met anybody who believes that—

• 21:20Tucker Carlson?

  If a free and fair referendum were held once again in Ukraine, that Ukraine would vote, I mean, rather than Crimeans would vote to align with the Zelensky government. I don't think so. It was 97%. Look, I'm just saying, self-determination is the core idea in democracy. They don't have it in Ukraine because they haven't had an election. They ignore the election because it's run by a dictator called Zelensky. If you wanted to say he's a dictator, that's fine. You support a dictator. The US, your government has supported many dictators, so has mine. That's kind of a fact of life. There are very few democratically elected leaders. Sometimes even our leaders aren't really democratically elected, as you know. I just don't like the moral bullshit that attaches to all of this.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  That's fair enough.

• 22:02Tucker Carlson?

  Where we tell the population, "We're on the side of democracy," and he's Winston Churchill.

• 22:06Speaker 02

  I don't claim, I don't claim it's Mother Teresa against Hitler.

• 22:09Tucker Carlson?

  No, but you have, though. You feel like, he's a marvelous person.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  I like him. I'm allowed to, aren't I?

• 22:14Tucker Carlson?

  I guess you like dictators. I've never said of Putin, "He's a marvelous person," because like, it's a little dictatory for me. I think he's really smart. I admire what he's done to Russia, but I'm not gonna sniff his jock because he's kind of a dictator. But you're like, "Oh, I love that Zelensky. He's so great."

• 22:30Speaker 02

  I do like him.

• 22:31Tucker Carlson?

  How can you like a man who's a dictator?

• 22:34Speaker 02

  I don't think he's a dictator.

• 22:35Tucker Carlson?

  In what sense? He's not elected. He rules by force. He rules with guns. He kills his opponents. He's assassinated a ton of people, including, you know, I know someone he tried to assassinate, fact. How is that worth supporting? Do you feel a little guilty for supporting someone like that?

• 22:52Speaker 02

  No, I don't.

• 22:53Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 22:53Speaker 02

  No, in fact, I think we should try and do more to help him win.

• 22:56Tucker Carlson?

  How rich do you think he's gotten from this war?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  I've no idea.

• 23:00Tucker Carlson?

  Does it bother you that he's gotten rich?

• 23:01Speaker 02

  He's not as rich as Vladimir Putin.

• 23:04Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, if all comparisons are to Putin, then all bets are off, right?

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Putin is, Putin is financially raped and pillaged his country for...

• 23:10Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe. I don't know.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Maybe?

• 23:12Tucker Carlson?

  I don't, I'm not a accountant. Okay, let's say he has...

• 23:14Speaker 02

  He's got a personal net worth of 100 billion rubles, whatever it is.

• 23:18Tucker Carlson?

  I guess how we would know that, but great, he does. He's evil. We'll just stick with that. But the question is, why would you support personally a dictator who's gotten rich on a war in his country, who bans a Christian denomination and who murders his political...

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Well, he'd literally only been...

• 23:35Tucker Carlson?

  Does that bother you at all?

• 23:36Speaker 02

  Well, he'd been in his country for two years.

• 23:38Tucker Carlson?

  He's done a lot of oppression in two years.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  He didn't get rich on corruption in two years.

• 23:43Tucker Carlson?

  But can I ask you, when you talk to Zelensky, when you say, "Why don't you have an election? Why don't you stop murdering your political opponents? Why don't you let people practice their Christian denomination? Why don't you let Russian speakers speak Russian and read Russian books?" That's what non-dictators do.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  Did you say any of that to Putin?

• 23:59Tucker Carlson?

  Of course not.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Why not?

• 24:00Tucker Carlson?

  Because I'm not his friend. I don't have the relationship with Putin that you have with Zelensky. I didn't tweet after my interview, "You're a very handsome man, I love you, I love you."

• 24:08Speaker 02

  I didn't call him a very handsome man, although he-

• 24:09Tucker Carlson?

  I think you did!

• 24:10Speaker 02

  I don't think he's a very handsome man, actually.

• 24:12Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, hot, hot is maybe what you said.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  I don't think I called him hot.

• 24:14Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, well, you said, "I really admire you," and I think you're great.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  But you asking me to ask all the questions of Zelensky, you didn't ask Putin.

• 24:19Tucker Carlson?

  Because he's a personal friend of yours. I'm not friends with Putin, I'm just a guy who showed up-

• 24:22Speaker 02

  I'm not personal friends with Zelensky.

• 24:23Tucker Carlson?

  I read your Twitter feed.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  I admire him.

• 24:26Tucker Carlson?

  You can't fool me, Peter Zelensky.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  You can't miscategorize me. I'm not a friend of his, I've only met him once, but I do admire his fortitude as a leader. I love the fact he stayed in Kyiv when the Russians went in. He could have fled, many would have done that position. Everyone thought the Russians would win in a few days. They didn't.

• 24:42Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 24:42Speaker 02

  I do admire the fortitude that he showed as a leader. Those characteristics I like. Doesn't mean he's-

• 24:48Tucker Carlson?

  I think you called him a magnificent leader. In fact, I'm pretty sure-

• 24:50Speaker 02

  I think he has been.

• 24:51Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so I'm just asking, since I didn't call Putin a magnificent leader at all.

• 24:57Speaker 02

  But nor did you ask him any of the questions that you want me to ask.

• 24:59Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't feel like, I didn't want to do what everybody does, which is, "You're so bad Vladimir Putin, meaning I'm so good, I'm going to give you a moral lecture." I'm like, "Whatever, it's your country, country's actually doing great." I was super impressed by Moscow, I'd recommend it to everybody, just because it's beautiful and orderly, which I like. I'm not moving there. They don't have freedom of speech, which is a prerequisite for me. But I didn't feel like that was my job, I just want to hear what the guy says. We're fighting a war against him, and no one's heard him speak.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Why do you believe him?

• 25:26Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know that I do.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Do you not? I mean, you believe his reasoning?

• 25:28Tucker Carlson?

  I believe something.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  You believe the reasoning for the war? You're fully all in on the Russian-

• 25:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there's kind of no question about that.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  Well, there's a lot of questions about it.

• 25:35Tucker Carlson?

  I don't really think so. I don't think any informed person, I mean, Bill Burns, the-

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Only 10% of people in eastern Ukraine actually want Russia to take them over.

• 25:44Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, I don't know how we know that, but I believe that, but it doesn't-

• 25:46Speaker 02

  It's a poll, same poll you, you know, you're quitting me about Crimea.

• 25:49Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that wasn't a poll, it was an election. Which are critical to democracy, I don't know if you knew that. When you're a magnificent leader, you can be elected.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  An election is a poll. They're called polls.

• 25:58Tucker Carlson?

  An election is a poll, a poll is not an election. Right? So there are different criteria for polls.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Well, a poll can be an election, yes.

• 26:05Tucker Carlson?

  Now we're getting metaphysical, but I would just say, I would just say, if you believe in democracy, you believe in elections. If you have a leader who's not elected, he's not a democratic leader, he's a dictator. Which is, okay, that's fine, it's a foreign country. I wouldn't call any dictator magnificent, just because it seems a little...

• 26:20Speaker 02

  How could Zelensky have an election in the middle of a war? Out of interest?

• 26:23Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know. How did Franklin Roosevelt do that in the middle of the Second World War? How did he do that?

• 26:28Speaker 02

  Because no one had invaded America.

• 26:31Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, well, but how about the...

• 26:33Speaker 02

  The people could actually vote. You've got half of Ukraine.

• 26:37Tucker Carlson?

  There are people making billions of dollars in business in Kiev today. How about the non-occupied parts of the country? Just make a good faith effort to have an election. But he doesn't want to, because I think he's pretty darn unpopular, because he is a lackey of Western powers who sold his country out. And Ukrainians know perfectly well that he's getting rich, and so is the entire leadership. I was in Corchel with France two weeks ago, which is probably the richest town in Europe. It's a ski town in France near Geneva. And everybody at the Hermes store was Ukrainian, using my money to buy hundred thousand dollar handbags. Nobody seems to care about that. I care, because that's not freedom fighting, that's grifting, that's theft. And everybody in Europe knows that, and you know that too. Go to Romania. All their, you know, high-end car dealerships are sold out because Ukrainians have bought the cars.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  So to be clear, when...

• 27:23Tucker Carlson?

  What the hell is this?

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Okay, well, so when Putin invaded Ukraine, you'd have given him what he wants? Take whatever you want?

• 27:30Tucker Carlson?

  Well, as I've said, and I really mean it from my heart, I mean, I have no kind of, I'm not getting rich from this, so I'm saying what I sincerely believe, which is pushing Ukraine to join NATO, when NATO doesn't want Ukraine, there's no strategic reason, no actual reason to have Ukraine, or to have NATO at all. We shouldn't have NATO at all.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  That's preposterous.

• 27:51Tucker Carlson?

  What's the point of NATO?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  To keep peace.

• 27:53Tucker Carlson?

  To keep the Soviets from invading Western Europe. Oh, well, it's been 35 years since they existed.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  To keep peace.

• 27:59Tucker Carlson?

  How's that worked to keep peace? We now have the bloodiest war in 80 years in the middle of Europe because of NATO. So how's this peacekeeping?

• 28:07Speaker 02

  Or you could argue, as many people do, that actually the reason is because Ukraine wasn't in NATO. Had it been, Putin wouldn't have invaded.

• 28:16Tucker Carlson?

  That's a super cra- this is like an addiction, and I've been through addiction, so I'm not judging at all. But it's like, I feel really shitty, I've gotta have a glass of vodka to feel better.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Are you mocking my mental health?

• 28:26Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not. Yes. But I'm also saying that I've lived this, so I know what it feels like. It's the thing that is killing you, it's truly killing you, whether it's NATO or vodka, you become convinced is saving you. So you wake up hungover and you're like, "Oh, I feel so bad, give me a screwdriver." And if you have a screwdriver, you feel better, and you don't realize that you're starting the cycle again.

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if he'd have been a member of NATO? No, he wouldn't have done, because then America would have been obliged to respond.

• 28:53Tucker Carlson?

  Here's what I know for a fact, Putin said this for 20 years. Ukraine cannot be a member of NATO. They will not accept that anymore that we would accept Chinese missiles in Tijuana, or you would accept Sri Lankan missiles in Glasgow. You're just not gonna accept that.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  NATO is a defensive organization.

• 29:14Tucker Carlson?

  How is it defensive?

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Because it has never acted proactively aggressively.

• 29:18Tucker Carlson?

  Really? Where were you when the Yugoslavian war was going on? And they were bombing the shit out of Christians in Yugoslavia, do you remember that?

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:23Tucker Carlson?

  That was pretty offensive.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  NATO has always operated in a defensive capacity.

• 29:28Tucker Carlson?

  How would, really?

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:29Tucker Carlson?

  That's how they created Kosovo? Defensively?

• 29:32Speaker 02

  It was defensive.

• 29:32Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it was?

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Yes, it was.

• 29:34Tucker Carlson?

  Who was the aggressor there?

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Well, you would notice, my brother-in-law was literally there.

• 29:40Tucker Carlson?

  Just admit it, what you're saying is insane.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  It's not insane. NATO has never actually acted unilaterally aggressively. It's never attacked anybody without being attacked, it's always been defensive.

• 29:50Tucker Carlson?

  When? Okay, who in Yugoslavia attacked NATO?

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Look.

• 29:56Tucker Carlson?

  Just note, here's the point where you just submit defeat. Bow your head and be like, you know what? I bow before superior knowledge. I totally got this wrong. I can't believe I had such a silly idea. I'm sorry.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  When you think nice, good guys in Yugoslavia...

• 30:07Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not saying they're nice, good guys. I'm just saying that was not a defensive action. That was an offensive action. Bill Clinton's like, "I don't like what you're doing. I'm gonna use NATO to kill you." And he did, and then created Kosovo as a NATO base.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Because they were absolute genocidal maniacs.

• 30:18Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they may have been naughty. I'm not defending their behavior.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  But that's what they were being defended against.

• 30:22Tucker Carlson?

  Who are we defending?

• 30:23Speaker 02

  The Yugoslavians. They were being pillaged and raped and murdered.

• 30:26Tucker Carlson?

  By other Yugoslavians?

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:29Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 30:32Tucker Carlson?

  This is getting intense.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  NATO is a defensive organization.

• 30:35Tucker Carlson?

  You can say it all you want. Just like you can say Zelensky's a beacon of democracy when he's not elected and he's banning parts of Christianity, but he's a dictator.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  So just to be clear...

• 30:43Tucker Carlson?

  And he's better just to be honest about what things are.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Just to be clear, you would have let Putin take what he wants. Because what's the alternative? When he invaded Ukraine?

• 30:51Tucker Carlson?

  So I try and deal, especially as I get older, in the world of reality and achievable goals. And here's the reality. Russia is a nuclear-armed power. It's the largest country on Earth by landmass. It's also the remnants of a global empire. So they have a sense of themselves as a global player, and they are, because of energy. And resources in general. Uranium. I mean, they have a lot of resources the world needs. So they're a real country. They're not Afghanistan. You can't just tell them what to do. "Get in line, bitch." They're not gonna accept that, okay? So they have said, since the fall of the Soviet Union, "You cannot have NATO on our border, because it's a critical national interest of ours." So unless you want to risk nuclear war, which we are now doing, you can't move NATO to their border, whether you want to or not.

• 31:36Tucker Carlson?

  That's just a fact. And if you do, you're gonna get a war. We've known that since the fall of the Soviet Union. And we promised not to do it. And we tried to bring... He asked to be in NATO in 2000. He asked George W. Bush to be in NATO. Nobody can test that. This evil dictator who wants to invade Liechtenstein asked to be in NATO. Why wouldn't we let him in NATO? Why did Condi Rice say, "Well, he can't be in NATO"? Why do we have morons like Condi Rice in our US government? I don't know.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  So when he invaded, though, what would you let him do?

• 32:05Tucker Carlson?

  We're in a hall of mirrors now.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Look, really?

• 32:09Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 32:09Speaker 02

  We're in a very clear moral, moral moment in history where Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine. It is a European country.

• 32:16Tucker Carlson?

  And we side with the dictator and we fund his security services.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  From Russia since the mid 90s.

• 32:20Tucker Carlson?

  Assassinating people.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, but what do you do? Do you let him take it?

• 32:22Tucker Carlson?

  There's nothing moral about this. Look, in the real world, we do things we can achieve. And if we can't achieve something, we don't try and do it because millions will die as we're watching.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  So what do you, what do you let him do then?

• 32:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you start with a realistic understanding of the limits of your power, which was all adults have to do. My neighbors may offend me. I want them to turn down the music. I can't just go over there and shoot them. I just can't. It's, it's against the law and I'll pay a penalty if I do that. So I have to negotiate with them. Will you please turn down the music? Shut up! No, please do it. If they won't, I maybe threaten them. Like, I live in the material, real world.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Right, but once, but once actually he's invaded, what do you do?

• 32:58Tucker Carlson?

  Then you have to decide, like, is it worth it? Is it worth it?

• 33:01Speaker 02

  So that's interesting to me.

• 33:01Tucker Carlson?

  A million Ukrainians are gonna die, their farmland's gonna be sold to BlackRock, the Ukrainian nation will cease to exist, they'll flood it with third worlders.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  So what do you do? What do you do?

• 33:10Tucker Carlson?

  What would I do?

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:11Tucker Carlson?

  I would say, like, if I took over the government in January of 2022 and we're on the verge of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, I would say, guys, it's not worth trying to impose something that this country will never accept because if we try to do that, we'll get a war.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  So do you let, let Putin take Ukraine?

• 33:28Tucker Carlson?

  You don't let anybody do anything. You realistically assess what you're able to do because you're gambling with other people's lives. By the way, if a million Brits had died, you might have a different perspective. But it's very easy to be like, oh, more Ukrainians should die for the cause of democracy.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  Let me assure you, let me assure you, if Russia invaded Britain, that would not be the view of the British people. Our view would be to fight to the last man and woman to kick him out. But my question really is...

• 33:53Tucker Carlson?

  You really think so?

• 33:53Speaker 02

  My, my question is not...

• 33:54Tucker Carlson?

  You guys just got invaded over the last 40 years and did nothing, so I don't think so. I don't think you would do that. I think you'd be like, we can't fight back because we have nuclear weapons but no real military. So we'd like to negotiate, just like all conquered nations do.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Right, but...

• 34:05Tucker Carlson?

  They negotiate on the basis of reality. What can I actually achieve?

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, but respectfully, you're not answering my question, which you don't have to because you're interviewing me in this bit, but the question... Is once Putin invaded, do you let him take the whole country? What do you do?

• 34:17Tucker Carlson?

  If I were in charge then?

• 34:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:18Tucker Carlson?

  If I had come in, if I came in in January of 2022, I would say to the State Department, I would say to the NATO leadership.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  No, I'm talking about February, end of February, early March.

• 34:28Tucker Carlson?

  At that point, I'm cleaning up a mess caused by the previous administration.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, so assume it's happened.

• 34:31Tucker Carlson?

  So let's say I'm Donald Trump, who's actually coming in in that exact circumstance.

• 34:35Speaker 02

  Right, and he's now wrestling with this very problem.

• 34:36Tucker Carlson?

  He certainly is, and it's a.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Because he doesn't want to give Putin the win, and that's my point to you. Do you actually want him to win?

• 34:43Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, if your lodestar is whether other people win, you will lose.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:49Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, that's a shitty way to go through life. If I'm trying to prevent you a win, no, I'm trying to win. I'm trying to win for my wife, my children, my neighborhood, my country.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  But once he's invaded.

• 34:59Tucker Carlson?

  I don't care whether you win or not.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  But once he's invaded, what do you do?

• 35:01Tucker Carlson?

  Your victory has nothing to do with anything. What I care about is my victory.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  You're in this as much as we are.

• 35:06Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, no. I care about my country and whether we win, which is good for us, because I'm in charge of my country. This is the erratic. I'm in charge of nothing.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Is it good for America that Putin wins?

• 35:14Tucker Carlson?

  This whole thing has been a disaster for, we're gonna lose the US dollar over this, okay? Because we followed the advice of people like Boris Johnson, who have no skin in the game whatsoever, but they get to feel like a moral charge, be like, we're on the side of democracy. Okay, it's so infuriating to me. I'm sorry to be so mean to the Brits, because it's our fault too.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  We can take it.

• 35:35Tucker Carlson?

  In fact, we started this, but you guys went along like little Pekinese. You shouldn't have done that.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  But why are you not answering my question?

• 35:41Tucker Carlson?

  What would I do if I were Trump right now?

• 35:42Speaker 02

  No, no, once he invaded Putin, what do you let him take?

• 35:45Tucker Carlson?

  I'd call Putin, let him take. I would say, at that point, to what extent can you clean it up? You call Putin and you say, all right, this happened. First thing we're gonna do is recognize it's not in our interest, your interest, the world's interest to have NATO missiles on your border. We don't want that. There's no reason to want that, because we don't want to drive you into the arms of China. You are really part of Europe, and you should be part of the West, because the West is Christian world that has a lot in common.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  And what if he says?

• 36:12Tucker Carlson?

  Culturally, religiously, linguistically, historically, and we want to be a block against the rising.

• 36:17Speaker 02

  And he says, you know, and he says, actually, I want Ukraine.

• 36:23Tucker Carlson?

  If you're the leader of the United States, your number one goal is to keep Russia, the world's largest landmass with some of the world's deepest energy reserves, from aligning with China, which has too many people, not enough land and not enough energy. So if they get together, they create a bloc that is bigger than you economically and militarily. So you cannot let that happen. That's number one goal. You cannot let that happen. And that retard in charge of our country just allowed that to happen because he hates the United States and has acted against his interests consistently from day one. 2020 to January 20th, 2025, when he left, thank God. So that's the goal. Do not allow, to the extent you can control it, do not allow Russia to align meaningfully with China. They have much more in common with us. They're part of Europe. You guys don't want to admit that, but they are.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  I don't want to be pedantic.

• 37:08Tucker Carlson?

  You're not being pedantic.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  What do you let Putin take?

• 37:10Tucker Carlson?

  I don't care. What I care about...

• 37:12Speaker 02

  You don't care?

• 37:13Tucker Carlson?

  I care, but what I care about is the balance of power in the world. And if the West finds itself in a place where it's got a much smaller collective economy and a much less powerful collective military than the East, then we're in serious trouble. There's no balance in the world. The Chinese are in charge of everything. And you can't let that happen.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  But if you roll over and you let Putin take what he wants from...

• 37:39Tucker Carlson?

  Roll over? It's all this like dick measuring contest. It's so dumb.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Let me just respond.

• 37:42Tucker Carlson?

  Roll over.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Let me just respond. If you roll over and you let him take what he wants in Ukraine, why should China not go and take what they want in Taiwan, for example? They would just take...

• 37:50Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they are going to take what they want in Taiwan.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  I'm not sure they will, especially with Trump as president.

• 37:54Tucker Carlson?

  It's part of China.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  I don't think they will.

• 37:56Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. Why don't we get to dictate what China does with Taiwan? Like, there's spheres of influence.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  You'd be happy for them to take back Taiwan?

• 38:02Tucker Carlson?

  Of course I'm not happy. I'm not happy with any conflict ever. I hate violence. I'm a Christian. I'm just saying that great countries have spheres of influence. So Saudi Arabia, where we are now, everyone's like, "Oh, the Saudis are interfering in Yemen." Well, Yemen's right there. It's in their world. Like, they have an absolute interest in making sure that like nothing crazy goes on in Yemen. We have the same interest in Mexico and in Canada. And we have some crazy cross-dressing prime minister in Canada, so we kick them out because they're on our border. And that's what great powers do. That's what they've always done. That's what they always will do. So it's totally fair for us to recognize that the countries around Russia, no, we shouldn't be invading or torturing them or oppressing them, of course. But that's their sphere.

• 38:42Tucker Carlson?

  And big picture, holy smokes, you do not want the two largest powers in the world, apart from the United States, to get together and align against us.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Why do you support, why do you support Israel against Hamas, for example? Why do you support America giving them billions of dollars?

• 38:58Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  You don't support Israel being supported by America?

• 39:01Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I, I support Israel in the sense that I, I really like Israel. I brought my family on vacation to Israel.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  But you agree with America supplying them with a lot of arms?

• 39:09Tucker Carlson?

  To the extent that it, that it helps the United States, I'm for it, of course. I, I think what we need is...

• 39:15Speaker 02

  So you do believe in America interfering in countries a long way away? It just depends which country?

• 39:21Tucker Carlson?

  No, I, I...

• 39:22Speaker 02

  Your, your principle, it doesn't really apply in Israel.

• 39:25Tucker Carlson?

  I'll articulate it for the third time, just to be totally clear. I believe that the United States, like every country, should, to the extent that it can, act on behalf of its own people and their perceived interests. We can debate what those interests are.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  But that doesn't apply in Israel.

• 39:38Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know what you mean.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  America's supporting Israel because it's an ally.

• 39:43Tucker Carlson?

  I don't even know what those words mean. I'm just saying my principle is...

• 39:46Speaker 02

  They're an ally, right? I mean, they, they both describe...

• 39:47Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know what that means to be an ally. I mean, we have no...

• 39:49Speaker 02

  It means that when Israel wants to attack in Gaza and attack Hamas, America will help it because it's his ally.

• 39:55Tucker Carlson?

  That's not what it means to be an ally.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  So it gives it billions of dollars worth of...

• 39:58Tucker Carlson?

  That's not what it means to be an ally, okay?

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Well, fundamentally, it does.

• 40:00Tucker Carlson?

  I have no greater allies than my own children. When they come to me and say, "I want to do this," I assess whether it's good for them or not. If I don't think it is, I don't support it.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:06Tucker Carlson?

  Because they're my true allies. They're my children.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  But why would you support America getting involved in Israel?

• 40:10Tucker Carlson?

  Just because a country that's your ally says, "I want to do this," does not mean axiomatically you support it. Maybe it's not good for you or me.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  So do you support America supporting Israel to the tune of billions of dollars?

• 40:19Tucker Carlson?

  It depends. If you can make...

• 40:20Speaker 02

  But what's, what's in America's interests is what's happening in Gaza?

• 40:23Tucker Carlson?

  It depends in all cases. It's not just about Israel.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  But do you support what's happening then in the support in the attacks in Gaza, for example? Because I don't see the difference between that and what's happening in Ukraine. This is a long way away from America. There's no direct involvement with America. There's no, there's no mainland involvement with America. And yet you think it's right that America supports Israel? Well, put words in your mouth. But you don't think it's right that America...

• 40:46Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think those are the words that came out of my mouth.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  You don't think it's right America supports Ukraine when Russia invades?

• 40:50Tucker Carlson?

  I have a simple solution. Let me explain what I think. And then that way we'll get right to what I think.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Am I wrong?

• 40:55Tucker Carlson?

  I actually tuned out midway through. Um, I'm not exactly sure what you said.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  You can't tune out when I'm right.

• 40:59Tucker Carlson?

  I did, I did, I did.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Just because I'm right, you can't tune out.

• 41:01Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't follow.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  You can't tune out when I'm right.

• 41:03Tucker Carlson?

  No, but it was more electoral about what I think and then I'm like, wait, I know what I think. I think I'm the world's expert on what I think. I think I'm the uncontested premier of my own head.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  That is true.

• 41:14Tucker Carlson?

  So I'm going to unload its contents on you right now.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  Explain, what is America's national interest in Israel?

• 41:21Tucker Carlson?

  Um, I'll define the parameters as well, because I'm happier with that. Um, I would say, I would say I support the right of all sovereign nations to act within what they believe is their own interest. Like, we don't always know our own interest in our personal lives or between nations. Like, we think it's good for us, but it may not be. The vodka in the morning analogy. Not good, actually, but I thought it was. Now I know it's not. But to the extent that we think we know, I think countries should act on behalf of their own citizens. That's, that's the basic idea in democracy, okay? And there's certainly a, you could make a case that whatever we're giving to Israel this year in the form of direct aid, military assistance, loan guarantees, however we're doing it, is good for the United States. I think you should have to make that case.

• 42:05Speaker 02

  Why is it good for the United States?

• 42:07Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you could make that case.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  But why is it?

• 42:08Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not convinced.

• 42:09Speaker 02

  What is the case?

• 42:11Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't know. You'd have to be an advocate for it. You are a vociferous advocate for it, so why don't you tell me?

• 42:16Speaker 02

  For what?

• 42:17Tucker Carlson?

  For USAID to Israel in the current conflict.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  Actually, I haven't expressed a view about that at all. I'm just curious about your, the difference in your...

• 42:25Tucker Carlson?

  You're not an Israel hater, are you?

• 42:26Speaker 02

  Not at all, not at all.

• 42:27Tucker Carlson?

  Why do you, why are you attacking Israel?

• 42:30Speaker 02

  I'd like to...

• 42:30Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know why. Like, what, what problem do you have with Israel, Pierce?

• 42:33Speaker 02

  I have no problem with Israel.

• 42:34Tucker Carlson?

  The Brits are like this. They secretly hate Israel.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  I have no problem with Israel whatsoever.

• 42:36Tucker Carlson?

  It feels like you do. Isn't Netanyahu a dictator?

• 42:39Speaker 02

  Actually, I don't like Netanyahu. I think he should, I think...

• 42:42Tucker Carlson?

  You hate Israel.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  I think he should go. No, but that's why, let me just ask you one more time.

• 42:46Tucker Carlson?

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Hang on, hang on.

• 42:47Tucker Carlson?

  Now we're getting into, I'm not comfortable with this.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Here's my question.

• 42:50Tucker Carlson?

  Should I be platforming you? That's my question. You just said you don't like Netanyahu.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  I'm trying to work out whose, whose brand suffers more when we platform each other. But let me ask you this. Let me ask you this.

• 42:58Tucker Carlson?

  I'm gonna need a second.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  One more time, just quietly for the people at the back. You don't like America getting involved in helping Ukraine against Russia because there's no national interest for America in doing that in your eyes.

• 43:10Tucker Carlson?

  Well, there's a negative national interest, a profound one.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Okay, so I get that.

• 43:13Tucker Carlson?

  We're losing the US dollar as the world's reserve currency because of this war.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  Okay, alright, so fine.

• 43:17Tucker Carlson?

  There's no greater national interest.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  But your position is, America first, that there's no interest for America, shouldn't be doing it.

• 43:23Tucker Carlson?

  Every country should act in its own interest.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  It's a problem between Ukraine and Russia, okay. It's fine, a lot of people have that view, I respect it. What I can't understand is the difference in your logic and principle about supporting Israel in its war with Hamas, which is many thousands of miles away from America, there's no direct...

• 43:42Tucker Carlson?

  If I've been a great advocate for the war it goes, I missed that part of the conversation.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Well, you support America supporting Israel. You don't support America supporting Ukraine.

• 43:50Tucker Carlson?

  I don't support America supporting any nation on the planet to its own detriment. Every element of our foreign policy should serve the United States. That's the point of our government, is to serve the people who live there, called citizens. That's what democracy is, there's no other reason. So if I'm in charge of a country and I decide, actually I should do this because people who pay me want me to do it, or I'm making money to do it, then I'm by definition illegitimate. That's not democracy. That is a species of oligarchy or whatever, you could assign a name to it, that's not democracy. So I just believe in our system, and our leaders should act on behalf of their own people, or what they think is their own people's interests. And I would apply that to Israel, I'd apply it to Ukraine. I think there have certainly been times where we have benefited from our alliance with Israel.

• 44:35Tucker Carlson?

  You know, it's an alliance, just like we have an alliance with our country.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  They are allies then.

• 44:38Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know what ally means.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  It's short for alliance.

• 44:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, you're right, it is.

• 44:43Speaker 02

  Yes!

• 44:44Tucker Carlson?

  It's so funny, I never knew that!

• 44:45Speaker 02

  I've got you!

• 44:45Tucker Carlson?

  You got me!

• 44:46Speaker 02

  You've literally just...

• 44:48Tucker Carlson?

  When it comes to etymology, you are the unchallenged king!

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Boom!

• 44:53Tucker Carlson?

  You're blowing my mind, Piers Morgan.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  My English linguist.

• 44:55Tucker Carlson?

  I was about to say, you guys invented the language.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  You know what? It is our language. You lot fucked it up, but we actually, it's our language.

• 45:02Tucker Carlson?

  As a PG Woodhouse fan, I totally agree.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  It's a root, not a rout. It's Iran, not Iran. And it's a hurricane, not a hurricane.

• 45:10Tucker Carlson?

  Hurricane is embarrassing.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  These are all our words. We gave them to you. You changed them. We have hurricanes.

• 45:16Tucker Carlson?

  You don't have hurricanes or pecan.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  We had one in eighty-seven and knocked down all the trees in my house.

• 45:19Tucker Carlson?

  You had a hurricane?

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Yes. Eighty-seven.

• 45:21Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's a typhoon when it happens.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Famously, the BBC weatherman at the time announced on the BBC Main News on the night, there are people ringing in saying, is there going to be a hurricane in the UK?

• 45:32Tucker Carlson?

  And no one knew what it meant.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  And let me tell you, there is not. Four hours later, every tree in south of England fell down.

• 45:38Tucker Carlson?

  Are you serious?

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yes. Well, we called it a hurricane is my point.

• 45:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, well, you don't have enough experience as someone who spends a lot of time in Florida. It's a hurricane. Um, it's also a cocktail. Of all the New Year's resolutions you're likely to put off, the one you're most likely to put off and keep putting off is buying life insurance. And you should have life insurance. It's kind of crazy not to because the future is unknown. You gotta have life insurance. But you may not have life insurance because it's a huge hassle and it can be a huge ripoff. But there is an answer. Policy Genius. It makes it very easy and much cheaper. You can find life insurance policies that start at just two hundred and ninety-two bucks per year for a million dollars of coverage. And some options, and this is the best part, are a hundred percent online and lets you

• 46:25Tucker Carlson?

  avoid unnecessary medical exams, the guy with the gloves. You don't want that if you can avoid it and you may be able to avoid it. Forty percent of people wind up looking back and wishing they'd had better life insurance or any life insurance. It could have helped their families enormously. Policy Genius can fix that for you. Peace of mind, that's what they're really selling. The address? Policygenius.com/tucker or click the link in the description to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much money you could save and how much hassle you could save. Policygenius.com/tucker. Bonjour, compadre. It's the.

• 47:05Tucker Carlson?

  How do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget, the Priceline app. It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals, all of those deals in a bundle. Deals, game day deals, concert trip deals. No one deals more deals than Priceline.

• 47:19Speaker 04

  Hold your horses, there's more. The app lets you filter hotels by neighborhood, vibe, star level, and amenities like pools and spas and beachfronts in... Wait, I'm not done. Stop cutting me off.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. Why do you have three? And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video, LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.

• 48:01Tucker Carlson?

  Would you kill Putin if you could?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Would I? Not personally, no.

• 48:04Tucker Carlson?

  But do you think it should be the policy of the UK government, the US government? Because it is now the policy to kill Putin.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  No, I would prefer the people of Russia to vote him out, but I also feel the same way about Netanyahu and the people in Israel.

• 48:17Tucker Carlson?

  So you're not calling for the assassination of Netanyahu?

• 48:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:21Tucker Carlson?

  Or Putin?

• 48:22Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:23Tucker Carlson?

  No. Do you think that if Putin were to leave, either by force or choice, that Russia would have a more pro-Western leader after?

• 48:30Speaker 02

  Not necessarily, no.

• 48:31Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Highly unlikely.

• 48:34Tucker Carlson?

  Highly unlikely, I think that's a fair assessment. Then why would you want... Since there's no evidence that the majority of Russians don't want Putin, there's overwhelming evidence that they do want Putin, so he appears to be the choice of his own country, which you may not like or whatever, but it seems true, and he's the most pro-Western leader we're likely to get in our lifetimes, then why are we against Putin exactly?

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Because I don't believe him in the way that you seem to.

• 49:00Tucker Carlson?

  I don't believe anybody.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  He has this very well-intentioned, perfectly reasonable, understandable reason why he had to illegally invade a democratic country.

• 49:09Tucker Carlson?

  Illegally.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  And take a third of its people, take a third of its land and people, and you think that's fine?

• 49:14Tucker Carlson?

  I think it's hilarious when you make reference to what's legal in the middle of a war.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  It's illegal.

• 49:19Tucker Carlson?

  When your country and mine blew up Nord Stream and destroyed the Western European economy, was that legal?

• 49:23Speaker 02

  You're talking to the editor of the paper that opposed the illegal invasion of Iraq. You supported that?

• 49:27Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I...

• 49:28Speaker 02

  You did?

• 49:29Tucker Carlson?

  I supported the invasion of Iraq.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  That was illegal too.

• 49:32Tucker Carlson?

  And I apologized for 22 years, but I wanted to...

• 49:34Speaker 02

  You accept that was illegal?

• 49:36Tucker Carlson?

  I don't even know what that means.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Breaking the law?

• 49:38Tucker Carlson?

  What law?

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Against international law.

• 49:40Tucker Carlson?

  Who makes international law?

• 49:42Speaker 02

  Well, the international community.

• 49:43Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, the international community, what do they mean?

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Do you not think there's anything like, you don't believe in international law?

• 49:47Tucker Carlson?

  I don't even know what that means. Who is the international community?

• 49:49Speaker 02

  You don't, you don't?

• 49:50Tucker Carlson?

  Is Iran in the international community?

• 49:51Speaker 02

  So you think any invasion of a sovereign domain country can be legal?

• 49:54Tucker Carlson?

  I don't even know what you mean by legal. It's wrong.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Lawful.

• 49:58Tucker Carlson?

  What law? Are there international policemen? Who are they? What are you even talking about?

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Well, you don't, you don't, you don't think they're international laws?

• 50:06Tucker Carlson?

  No, I think they're moral laws, and that's what I care about. Certain things are wrong, regardless of what the leadership of any country says.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  You don't believe that, you believe there are actual laws, don't you?

• 50:13Tucker Carlson?

  Not international laws, there are no international laws.

• 50:15Speaker 02

  Really?

• 50:16Tucker Carlson?

  Are there international policemen? Are there international courts?

• 50:18Speaker 02

  You don't believe in, yes, there are international courts.

• 50:20Tucker Carlson?

  Really? So, so who's punished in the international courts, other than Milosevic?

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Do you believe in, do you believe in the Geneva Convention, or not?

• 50:26Tucker Carlson?

  I believe in the ideas behind the Geneva Convention, absolutely, but it's universally disregarded, including by your country, which I think has bioweapons, by the way, you should get on that, find out. Um, those are prohibited, but I think you guys have them. You're in violation.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  If that turns out to be true, I would be violently opposed to that.

• 50:43Tucker Carlson?

  But you know that it is true.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  I don't, actually.

• 50:45Tucker Carlson?

  I think you should find out.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  I'll look into it.

• 50:48Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, there are bio labs in Ukraine. What are bio labs doing in Ukraine, do you think? Are you comfortable with that?

• 50:52Speaker 02

  No, it wouldn't be if they're there.

• 50:55Tucker Carlson?

  But you said Zelensky was a fabulous leader, why would he have bio labs?

• 50:58Speaker 02

  I like him personally.

• 51:01Tucker Carlson?

  The dictator with bioweapons, I'm, I'm not into it, I'm sorry, I'm just, I guess that it would be, it's against international law, so I'm opposed. No, look, I'm just saying, international law is a theoretical concept, and it's literally theoretical because it's not enforceable, and we know that because it's not enforced. So what matters is what's the interests of your country and what's right and wrong. And I'm a Christian, so that's pretty clear for me. All this shit is wrong. It's completely wrong. It's wrong to send cluster bombs to Ukraine, which you supported. I'm totally opposed to that. Cluster bombs to kill more kids? Like, why? That's wrong. I don't care if international law says it's wrong, that's irrelevant.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  Was it wrong for, was it wrong for America to use atomic bombs in World War II?

• 51:35Tucker Carlson?

  Absolutely.

• 51:36Speaker 02

  Really?

• 51:36Tucker Carlson?

  I don't, to use nuclear weapons? Yes.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  To end the war?

• 51:40Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  To save many hundreds of thousands more people dying? That's what happened.

• 51:46Tucker Carlson?

  You know, this is a

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Is it not morally?

• 51:48Tucker Carlson?

  What we refer to in the business as a theoretical assertion.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Not really, everyone is

• 51:54Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's literally theoretical.

• 51:55Speaker 02

  Whether you agree or don't agree with the use of nuclear weapons, nobody disputes the fact that it brought an end to a war, which, had it been allowed to carry on for another six months to a year, would have carried many, killed many more people.

• 52:04Tucker Carlson?

  Why Nagasaki, why drop it on Japan's Christian population? Is there some reason Hiroshima wasn't enough? No, because they wanted to test a different variety of atomic weapon. So like, I'm against that, I'm against killing civilians. I'm against firebombing cities, I'm against bioweapons, I'm against chemical weapons.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  What weapons do you support?

• 52:21Tucker Carlson?

  I guess conventional weapons, you know, I'm

• 52:24Speaker 02

  Well, how big a bomb do you support?

• 52:26Tucker Carlson?

  Look, if you're intentionally killing civilians

• 52:28Speaker 02

  Isn't it a question of just of scale? I mean

• 52:30Tucker Carlson?

  To some extent it is, yeah.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  If you believe in a big bomb and it kills 500 people, but you don't agree with one that kills 1,000, what's the difference ideologically?

• 52:37Tucker Carlson?

  It depends who they are, I mean, I think you can say, I mean, there are

• 52:40Speaker 02

  So after Pearl Harbor, after Pearl Harbor, you think it was wrong with the Japanese refusing to surrender, vowing to kill as many people as they possibly could, that America decided to use its two most powerful weapons to bring an end to the war?

• 52:52Tucker Carlson?

  That's one way to put it.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  I would say it's more morally justified what America did than what the British did, for example, in carpet bombing Dresden.

• 53:01Tucker Carlson?

  Dresden, yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  I think there was more justification because they were trying to bring an end to the war as quickly as they could to avoid potentially millions more people dying.

• 53:09Tucker Carlson?

  You know, it's no defensive Imperial Japan or Pearl Harbor or Franklin Roosevelt for allowing Pearl Harbor, which he did. It's not a defense of any of that to say, if you're intentionally killing civilians, you probably shouldn't beat your chest and brag about it. You know, maybe you can make

• 53:26Speaker 02

  I agree with that.

• 53:26Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe you make the case that we had to do it or whatever, but you should

• 53:29Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 53:30Tucker Carlson?

  You should weep, and that's evil, and you should just say it's evil. And I know it's really threatening to

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Is it evil?

• 53:36Tucker Carlson?

  Ben Shapiro to say that or whatever.

• 53:37Speaker 02

  Is it evil?

• 53:38Tucker Carlson?

  To kill civilians on purpose, yeah, it is, I think it is.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Really?

• 53:40Tucker Carlson?

  Kids and children, well, how is it not, actually?

• 53:42Speaker 02

  In a war?

• 53:44Tucker Carlson?

  We can call it whatever you want, how is it right to kill women and children?

• 53:47Speaker 02

  I didn't say, well, because I think there is a moral right behind you, if you are literally

• 53:51Tucker Carlson?

  To kill women and children, really?

• 53:52Speaker 02

  If there's a world war that threatens the entire if it threatens the entire world, yes.

• 53:56Tucker Carlson?

  Some people killed your kids, like your eight-year-old?

• 53:58Speaker 02

  All of these are your own children.

• 53:59Tucker Carlson?

  How is that morally justifiable?

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Well, because actually you have to, well, by your criteria

• 54:04Tucker Carlson?

  That's disgusting.

• 54:04Speaker 02

  Okay, so no war is morally justified?

• 54:08Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, I think it's pretty hard to justify. I mean, yeah.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Any war.

• 54:10Tucker Carlson?

  You know, a pure defensive action, sure. But all I'm saying, look, it's all ugly. It's all hard to stomach. I've actually seen some of it up close. Super ugly.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  You could say that, you could say you hate it.

• 54:21Tucker Carlson?

  Let me finish.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  The fact you, you could put it being morally justified.

• 54:24Tucker Carlson?

  To intentionally kill noncombatants, women and children. I think we can say that's wrong. In fact, I thought that was the thing we were fighting against. And censorship and dictatorship, people ruling without being elected, people using force to get their will, like, I thought that was the whole thing we were fighting against. So how about we don't become that? And I'm just saying, all kinds of decisions are made under duress. I have made decisions under duress, foolishly, that I'm ashamed of, including supporting the Iraq war. But why are we defending it? I just don't understand that. And we're defending it, of course, because we're still doing it. And a lot of people are getting rich. And a lot of people find meaning in their otherwise barren lives, rather than like raising decent children, having a productive life, making something. They exist to destroy. I just think that's evil.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  You think no military action is morally justifiable, then?

• 55:10Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't say that.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  But aren't you implying that?

• 55:11Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not implying it. I never imply anything. I just say things.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  It's the deaths of any innocent people.

• 55:15Tucker Carlson?

  I'm just telling you what I think.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  If you kill, yeah, if you kill any innocent people, civilians in a war, you think it's all morally lacking in justification? Because I would argue against that.

• 55:27Tucker Carlson?

  Right. You, you're arguing against a construct that you created in order to argue against.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Not really.

• 55:31Tucker Carlson?

  I'm being, well, I'm being super straightforward. If you're intentionally...

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Is there any form of warfare that's morally justified?

• 55:36Tucker Carlson?

  Go on, let me finish. I'm saying, when you intentionally kill women and children, when you wage war through fear by murdering the civilian population. I don't think that's a good thing. And I don't think you should be defending it. And I don't know why it's such a threat to say that out loud. If you're firebombing someone's city, as we did Tokyo, as you guys did Dresden, and a lot of other cities, by the way, in both of those countries. If you're dropping atomic weapons in the middle of town on a Catholic church. I don't know why you have to look back 80 years later and be like, that was a great thing. It wasn't a great thing. It was a shameful thing. And we should be better than that because we're not savages. Because we're Christians.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  But I don't agree with you. I don't agree with you.

• 56:13Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, apparently you don't.

• 56:14Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 56:15Tucker Carlson?

  You said, right, Cameron, it's okay to kill eight-year-olds because it's war. Well, it's not okay to kill eight-year-olds.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  I didn't say anything is okay. What I said is morally justified. Because when you have an enemy that is prepared to put 6 million Jews into gas chambers and murder 6 million more people, they are prepared to do anything. And you have to stop them. And then any response you give to me is morally justified.

• 56:38Tucker Carlson?

  Any response?

• 56:39Speaker 02

  Well, pretty much. If you're taking the war to them to try and end the war.

• 56:43Tucker Carlson?

  But you don't want to be-

• 56:43Speaker 02

  And trying to defeat a nihilistic group like the Nazis. Yes, it's morally-

• 56:47Tucker Carlson?

  A nihilistic group? Says the guy who's defending the murder of eight-year-olds. They're nihilistic.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  I'm not defending the murder of any eight-year-olds.

• 56:52Tucker Carlson?

  What you're doing is expressing a species of nihilism. The whole point is, we are better than you because we have limits. There are some things where I'm not gonna rape your wife. I'm just not.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  How do you stop-

• 56:59Tucker Carlson?

  Hold on, let me finish.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 57:01Tucker Carlson?

  I am not going to behave like an animal.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 57:04Tucker Carlson?

  You are. That's why we're at war. You bombed preemptively my Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbor. We weren't even at war. Why'd you do that? That's outrageous. We're gonna punish you for doing it. I get it.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 57:14Tucker Carlson?

  But we're not like you-

• 57:15Speaker 02

  Not punished, defend.

• 57:17Tucker Carlson?

  Well, first, not defending. There was no threat of invasion. If you're the United States, I mean, you live in a tiny island nation. I think there was a real thing.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. That is a form of invasion, isn't it?

• 57:27Tucker Carlson?

  It was not an invasion. It was an attack on our fleet.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  It's a mass attack on America.

• 57:32Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not defending Pearl Harbor. I don't think Roosevelt should have let it happen, which he did.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  But once it happened, what do you do?

• 57:36Tucker Carlson?

  You attack them back. I get it, I'm not-

• 57:39Speaker 02

  So you agree?

• 57:39Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but hold on. There are finer distinctions here.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Not really. You attacked them back-

• 57:43Tucker Carlson?

  Let me finish my fucking sentence.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  Was it morally defensible to attack them back?

• 57:48Tucker Carlson?

  Stop, okay. Yes, it was morally defensible to attack them back.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you. You agree with me?

• 57:53Tucker Carlson?

  But it depends what attack means.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  You agree with me? You didn't qualify.

• 57:57Tucker Carlson?

  You do all interviews like this?

• 57:58Speaker 02

  You didn't qualify.

• 57:59Tucker Carlson?

  It's like crazy.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  You didn't qualify.

• 58:01Tucker Carlson?

  You say it's okay to molest children. Why do you say that? You're like, "I didn't say that." No, you just said it's okay to molest children. Now, why would you be in favor of child molestation?

• 58:08Speaker 02

  Nobody's talked about molesting children.

• 58:10Tucker Carlson?

  That's what you did.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  You just said it was morally justified for America to-

• 58:14Tucker Carlson?

  It's like hilarious.

• 58:15Speaker 02

  America, you said, "America attacking after Pearl Harbor."

• 58:18Tucker Carlson?

  They like, they end the interview and they're like, "What just happened?"

• 58:22Speaker 02

  Actually, you'll be saying that.

• 58:24Tucker Carlson?

  He just told me what I believe, and then he attacked me for believing it. It's so hilarious. I love that. It's like a species of masturbation. Like, you don't need another person present.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Listen, don't not masturbation.

• 58:34Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not-

• 58:34Speaker 02

  It's making love to someone you love.

• 58:38Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, let me just say. You don't ever want to wind up in a place where you're defending the killing of children. You just don't. Now, you go into any kind of con-

• 58:46Speaker 02

  That wasn't what I was doing. I was saying it's morally justified.

• 58:48Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it was very much what you were doing.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 58:49Tucker Carlson?

  You said it was morally justified to kill children.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  I said morally just-

• 58:51Tucker Carlson?

  It's not.

• 58:51Speaker 02

  No, no. Morally justified to drop bombs which end a war. Yes, I do believe that.

• 58:57Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask you just, since we're still on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

• 59:02Tucker Carlson?

  Hard to say you make the case for not to, but whatever. Why not, if you have this fantastic new weapon, and you want to prevent, somehow you're required to invade Japan? Like, I don't know why we'd be required to invade Japan, by the way? Like, no one ever answers that question.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  They just attacked you?

• 59:17Tucker Carlson?

  No, they attacked us four years earlier, and we've now beaten them, and driven them out of the Philippines and Malaysia and all this stuff. We've won. Why do we have to invade mainland Japan? No one ever answers that question. We just kind of have to, because we have to. Okay, I'm not second guessing the military leadership of the Second World War. But I am second guessing this. Why wouldn't you bomb just military installations? Why drop these bombs in the middle of a city when you know that overwhelmingly the incinerated people will be civilians? Like, why would you do that? I would not do that. I would say, "I have the bomb, okay. We're gonna drop it on, you know, critical military infrastructure, arms manufacturing plants, on, you know, a fleet." Why would you drop it on...

• 59:54Speaker 02

  Because when the enemy is not making that calculation, you have to stop them.

• 59:58Tucker Carlson?

  Stop them from what, not being invaded?

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  Stop them from killing your civilians, killing your people.

• 1:00:03Tucker Carlson?

  Japan, in the summer of 1945, was in no position to kill any American civilians, period. So, I think they floated a couple of firebombs over Oregon three years before. But the point is, look, I don't want to, I understand, you know, people do their best under pressure. They make mistakes. I've made a million of them. I'm not judging even Harry Truman, who I do think was kind of a pig. But whatever, I'm not even judging. I maybe would have done the same thing. I'm just saying, eighty years later, why defend that? Like, what's the point?

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  I think it was morally justified.

• 1:00:34Tucker Carlson?

  To kill 200,000 civilians?

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:37Tucker Carlson?

  So then we wouldn't have to invade, which we didn't have to anyway?

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  To save, potentially, millions of lives being killed, yes.

• 1:00:43Tucker Carlson?

  Of our invaders, of their country?

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  Of both sides, to bring an end to the war.

• 1:00:46Tucker Carlson?

  How about just not invade them?

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  They wouldn't surrender. You've got to bring the war to an end.

• 1:00:50Tucker Carlson?

  But they had lost. Why do you, but why do you have to invade them?

• 1:00:52Speaker 02

  Because they refused to surrender.

• 1:00:54Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but we'd kicked them out of all of their colonies. We'd driven them back to their island.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  You don't dispute dropping those bombs end of the war, do you?

• 1:01:01Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I am disputing it. That's what I'm doing right now.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  It did end the war.

• 1:01:05Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, disputing that it ended the war? Sure, of course.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  So, the means and the fact are correct.

• 1:01:10Tucker Carlson?

  I'm also not disputing that bringing down the Twin Towers changed the United States. Like, if you commit enough killing, you will change people's behavior, including getting them to surrender. I'm just, my only question is, is it worth it? And what are you becoming when you participate in it?

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think-

• 1:01:23Tucker Carlson?

  I think that's a meaningful question that nobody addresses.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  Yes, but you-

• 1:01:25Tucker Carlson?

  Like, who am I? I'm a decent person. I am... I'm an imperfect person. This is how Americans, I think, should think of themselves, and mostly do. But I am also a representative of an enlightened country, product of an enlightened civilization called Western civilization, and there are certain things I will not do, even if they benefit me. I'm not doing that because I'm not that guy. I don't kill children, I don't rape women, I don't send women into battle to defend me, which I guess we now do. That's wrong.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  So you would condemn what Israel's done in Gaza, for example?

• 1:01:57Tucker Carlson?

  I don't want to be involved in it.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  I mean, nearly 23,000 children were said to have died.

• 1:02:00Tucker Carlson?

  I don't-

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  You condemn it?

• 1:02:02Tucker Carlson?

  -think that that is a...

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  By your criteria, you condemn it? Is it morally just to vote?

• 1:02:10Tucker Carlson?

  That is a calculation that Israel has to make. I don't want to be, have anything to do with that.

• 1:02:14Speaker 02

  You have no, no view?

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  No view?

• 1:02:18Tucker Carlson?

  It's hard to take a lecture from someone who just admitted that he hates Israel in every fiber of his body.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  I never said-

• 1:02:24Tucker Carlson?

  You said that. You said that on camera.

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  Now you're distracting.

• 1:02:26Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, I'm not distracting.

• 1:02:27Speaker 02

  Oh, yes you are.

• 1:02:27Tucker Carlson?

  You're the one who said that, man.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  You're now distracting.

• 1:02:29Tucker Carlson?

  You said, "I hate Benjamin Netanyahu."

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  No, I didn't. I don't think you should be leader anymore.

• 1:02:33Tucker Carlson?

  You hate him.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  You shouldn't be leader.

• 1:02:34Tucker Carlson?

  With irrational hatred, that, you know, I don't know where it comes from, I can't account for what's in your soul, I don't have an X-ray into what's deep inside you, but all you said was, "I hate him."

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  I have no problem saying that I think Israel's response has gone way too far, way too many civilians have been killed. What I'm surprised about is that you, having lectured me about the deaths of eight-year-olds, you don't want to morally condemn what Israel's done in Gaza. I'm curious as to why. By your criteria?

• 1:02:59Tucker Carlson?

  Yep. My criteria apply solely, and this is a thread of consistency throughout my arguments here and everywhere for the last 20 years.

• 1:03:09Tucker Carlson?

  They have to with the behavior of the United States, which is my country. And it's been my family's country for hundreds of years. I pay my full taxes. I feel very vested. I'm a shareholder in my country. So its behavior matters greatly to me. I'm implicated in its behavior. And I don't want the United States to participate in things that are counter to its interests or counter to the values of Western civilization. That's really simple. So, other countries do all kinds of abominable things, including cannibalism, a lot, actually, and human sacrifice, a lot, actually. And, you know, okay, they're not my country. So I don't want the United States involved in anything that's morally indefensible or counter to its own interests. Period.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  So Israel's dropping American bombs on Gaza, killing lots of children.

• 1:03:52Tucker Carlson?

  In order to judge...

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  You think the death of...

• 1:03:53Tucker Carlson?

  I'll tell you what I think!

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  Hang on.

• 1:03:55Tucker Carlson?

  Don't tell me what I think!

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  You think the killing of civilians is morally indefensible?

• 1:04:01Tucker Carlson?

  Let me tell you what I think.

• 1:04:02Speaker 02

  So American bombs are being used to kill a lot of children and women in Gaza?

• 1:04:06Tucker Carlson?

  I hate that.

• 1:04:07Speaker 02

  Is it morally...

• 1:04:08Tucker Carlson?

  Let me tell you what I think!

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Is it morally indefensible?

• 1:04:10Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not gonna...

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  Now you don't want to say?

• 1:04:13Tucker Carlson?

  I'm in the process of telling you.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  Go on then.

• 1:04:15Tucker Carlson?

  Stand back, let the flower bloom. Okay? Stop tending the garden, Pierce. I hate the fact that civilians are killed with American weapons. I hate it. I hate it in Ukraine. I hate it in Gaza. I hate it in the occupied territories.

• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  As do I.

• 1:04:31Tucker Carlson?

  Whatever we're calling them these days. I think, in the specific case of Israel, we have been closely allied with the Israeli government, you know, since 1950s. We're actually instrumental in the creation of Israel, so since the late 40s. And I think that there are times when our interests have aligned, and there are times, the transfer of military technology to China being one of them, where those interests diverge. I would very much appreciate an environment in the United States where Americans could speak openly about what their money is doing in a bunch of different foreign countries, including that one. And I think that we should reassess all our relationships, all our alliances with our allies, on the basis of whether or not it's good for the United States on a bunch of different levels.

• 1:05:14Tucker Carlson?

  Economically, whether it's good for our internal politics, whether it's good for, you know, our power abroad, et cetera, et cetera. And, yes, more than... You know, I really think that we need a much more honest conversation about our relationship with Israel. And I feel, if I can just say one thing and brag, I feel like I'm one of the only people in the United States who's not emotional on the topic. Everyone's so emotional about it. They hate Israel, they love Israel. It's like, I'm American, okay? I like Israel. I don't love any country other than my own. And I think we should have a rational conversation about this. And at this point, as you well know, we don't. So that's my actual position.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, but look, for what it's worth, my position is Israel had a fundamental duty, not just a right, but a duty to defend its people after October the 7th, given the horrendous scale of that attack. And my only question I kept asking repeatedly from about the first couple of weeks onwards was, what is a proportionate response? What is morally justified?

• 1:06:13Tucker Carlson?

  In general, your relationships with your neighbors are your problem. In my home, my neighbors, I own my house. I can't leave. Easily.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  But it's also an American problem because the American military is being used.

• 1:06:25Tucker Carlson?

  No, but you make calculations about your behavior based on what you can achieve, based on what you think your interests are, and that's true at the homeowner level and it's true at the nation level. So you deal with your neighbors, and that's your problem. And if you're in a fight with your neighbors, it's up to you to resolve it. It's not my problem. I do not have to resolve your disputes with your neighbors. And that is true of Ukraine, and it's true of Israel. I'm sorry, I wish you well. I may have, you know, obviously I like Israel because I like going there. I know Israelis and I really like them.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  I like Israel.

• 1:06:55Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it's the best. I mean, to visit, it's the best.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  I like Israeli people.

• 1:06:58Tucker Carlson?

  I do too.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  I like Palestinian people too that I've met.

• 1:07:01Tucker Carlson?

  I do too, and there are a lot of Christians. The one thing, I'll just be honest, since you're pushing me on this, that makes me a little bit emotional is there are a lot of Christians, Christian Arabs. And having traveled a lot, I can say, just as a matter of personal preference, I really like them. I've never met a Christian Arab that I didn't like, actually. I think they're really amazing people. And a lot of them have been killed or mistreated with American money and weapons, and I think it's disgusting. And I think it's especially disgusting that Christian leaders in the United States have said nothing because they're bullied and bought off. And I think they should feel shame because they've dodged their duty, which is to speak up on behalf of their brothers in Christ. And they haven't. And there are Christians in Gaza who were killed. There are a ton in the West Bank. And by the way, that's the cradle of Christianity. Where's the Church of the Nativity?

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  That's what the Pope calls a church in...

• 1:07:45Tucker Carlson?

  He's absurd. I can't.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he actually calls a church, a Catholic church in Gaza every night. See how they're doing every night, apparently. Cool.

• 1:07:52Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that's the Pope thing. I'm not getting involved. I'm not a Catholic. Sorry. You're gonna have to deal with him. It's your Pope, not mine. So we were at a meeting here at TCN the other day, and I looked around the room and every other person had a kind of ruddy vitality, sort of pink cheeks, alertness, bright eyes, full mental acuity and a cheerfulness you could almost smell. And I asked, why does everyone look so good? And part of the answer, of course, is they like what we do for a living. It's really interesting. We think it's important. But another reason everyone looks so good is because they'd all had a great night's sleep. I'm not making this

• 1:08:34Tucker Carlson?

  up. Almost everybody here uses a new sleep technology from a company called Eight Sleep. They sent it to us and everyone here loves it. It's called the Pod. It's a high-tech mattress cover effectively that you add to your existing bed. You don't need a new bed or anything like that. You just throw this over what you have. What it does is adjust the temperature of your bed, warmer or cooler, depending on what you want. And it maintains an ideal sleeping environment all night long. So I didn't know this, but as you progress through different phases of sleep, your body's needs change. And Eight Sleep automatically keeps things exactly where they should be in the sweet spot through the entire night.

• 1:09:18Tucker Carlson?

  It's been proven to increase the quality of your sleep, the amount you sleep every night. It improves your recovery time from physical exertion, and it may even improve your cognitive performance and enhance your overall health. It seems to be doing that in our office. So it learns and adapts to your sleep patterns over time and automatically adjusts temperatures throughout the night through each phase of sleep. And it does this independently for each sleeper on either side of the bed. That's pretty cool. So you can sleep well and feel much better and be more effective the next morning as we are here. Try it for yourself. Go to eightsleep.com/tucker. Use the promo code TUCKER to get

• 1:10:01Tucker Carlson?

  an extra 350 bucks off the Pod 4 Ultra. You can try it with zero obligation for a month, and if you don't like it, just send it back. Again, that's eightsleep.com/tucker. Better sleep today and look great in your morning meetings as our guys do.

• 1:10:19Speaker 05

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 1:10:21Speaker 04

  It's me, the Priceline Negotiator. We don't need the jingle twice.

• 1:10:26Speaker 05

  What about a third time?

• 1:10:27Speaker 04

  Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars.

• 1:10:34Speaker 05

  Seems like they just started.

• 1:10:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app.

• 1:10:40Speaker 05

  Time to read the timeline.

• 1:10:42Speaker 04

  Fine. No one deals more deals than...

• 1:10:44Speaker 05

  Priceline.

• 1:10:45Speaker 04

  Please stop.

• 1:10:46Speaker 05

  Priceline.

• 1:10:47Speaker 04

  Touche.

• 1:10:47Speaker 05

  Priceline.

• 1:10:49Speaker 04

  Priceline.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. Why do you have three? And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video, LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.

• 1:11:19Tucker Carlson?

  But, um, no, but in general, I'm speaking about the United States, Protestants in the United States, that's the world that I'm from that I understand. They have an obligation to stand up for their brother Christians around the world, and they don't in this specific case because they're intimidated. And I think that's really shameful, and I think they should feel shame for it. It's not a political question. It's not, "Do you hate Israel?" It's like, I don't hate Israel. Anybody who murders Christians, defenseless Christians, the religion of peace, the actual religion of peace, I'm opposed to that, and we should just say that. It's not controversial. It should not be controversial. And it just shows how totally afraid and lacking self-confidence Christians are to just say like, "I'm sorry,

• 1:12:00Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not attacking you, but I'm opposed to that. You can't use my money to kill Christians, blow up a church. No." Or to storm the Church of the Nativity. That's my religion. No. You don't get a dollar if you do that. And by the way, we're not giving you any money until you promise to treat Christians as equals. You know what I mean? That's how I personally feel, and I think all Christians should feel that way. It's not attacking anybody. It's just a baseline demand of dignity and respect, and they don't get it.

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  I mean fundamentally...

• 1:12:28Tucker Carlson?

  That makes me emotional.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, fundamentally, we're not a million miles apart, and neither of us like war. Nobody who likes war should ever be...

• 1:12:37Tucker Carlson?

  One of us likes dictators.

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:12:39Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  You do.

• 1:12:41Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't tweet out, "I love you, Vladimir Putin."

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  You didn't need to. You said it in your eyes.

• 1:12:46Tucker Carlson?

  Right. But I didn't say it on Twitter.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  You should have, you know what, you should have been on Twitter, you just said everyone thought you did.

• 1:12:53Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I didn't, I don't give a shit what people think, but I didn't tweet. Putin, you're fabulous, you're fabulous.

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  You didn't need to.

• 1:13:00Tucker Carlson?

  I didn't need to.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  Body language, said it for you.

• 1:13:04Tucker Carlson?

  Start humping his leg in the, uh, in the interview? No, anyway, no, I just, I'm against dictatorship and I don't want to send money to dictators. Does it bother you that your tax dollars go to a dictator?

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  No, because I don't, I don't see Zelensky as a dictator in the way that you do.

• 1:13:18Tucker Carlson?

  If your prime minister decided not to have another election.

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  Zelensky's literally been leader for what, two years?

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  Two years, I think he's been in charge, Putin, what is he, what's he into, nearly 30 years now?

• 1:13:30Tucker Carlson?

  I think Putin has been in, uh, 24.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  24?

• 1:13:35Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not defending Putin, I'm just saying, like, all dictatorship is bad, like, a little dollop of dictatorship is as bad as a mouthful of dictatorship. I'm just against dictatorship. I'm for democracy.

• 1:13:49Tucker Carlson?

  Inspiring, passionate, determined, and resolute. That's what you called Zelensky.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought you were talking to me.

• 1:13:56Tucker Carlson?

  No, you were all of those things.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  I thought that was your, I thought that was your out for me.

• 1:14:00Tucker Carlson?

  Inspiring, passionate, determined, and resolute, and very handsome, though that's implied.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  I would agree with all of those things.

• 1:14:06Tucker Carlson?

  You would.

• 1:14:06Speaker 02

  Yes, I think the courage, the moral courage he showed on the night that the Russians invaded, when people thought they would sweep through Kyiv and almost certainly kill him, the fact he immediately went on social media and with it, people around him has said, I'm not leaving, I'm staying here for you. That's moral courage, of the kind we saw with Trump, when he stood there and got back up and went, fight, fight, fight.

• 1:14:26Tucker Carlson?

  When he assassins his political opponents. Or when he steals USAID or he allows his generals to sell half the missiles they get from the United States to the Mexican drug cartels and Iran and everyone else on the black market, is that inspiring?

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  Well, you're making a lot of allegations against him.

• 1:14:42Tucker Carlson?

  Those are facts.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  Okay, you say they're facts, but other people dispute them.

• 1:14:46Tucker Carlson?

  Who disputes that they're selling weapons in Ukraine on the black market? I don't think anyone disputes.

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  I'm sure that's happening.

• 1:14:52Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, it's happening?

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:54Tucker Carlson?

  Um, who disputes that Zelensky's murdered his political opponents? No one.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  Has he? You think he personally has ordered the murders?

• 1:15:02Tucker Carlson?

  Well, he's in charge of the country, he's the dictator. He's the dictator.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  You just said he did.

• 1:15:06Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I mean, in the same sense that we would say...

• 1:15:08Speaker 02

  You wouldn't dispute that Vladimir Putin does that relentlessly. Imprisons and tortures and kills.

• 1:15:14Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I know, I think there's a long history of that in the region. Poisoning your enemies. Putin has done that. It seems clear to me. I'm not sending him money. I'm not calling him passionate, determined, resolute and handsome.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  But you haven't actually...

• 1:15:27Tucker Carlson?

  You hate this! I love this!

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  I don't hate it, I know, because I keep asking you the same question, and for some reason you don't want to answer it.

• 1:15:33Tucker Carlson?

  No, I've answered all questions. Let me ask you a really easy question. Now that you have been, like me, fired from your cushy mainstream media gig, how much happier are you, and why? And looking back at the television networks and newspapers, how many newspapers do you work for?

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  I ran two of the big ones in the UK.

• 1:15:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, right, but over your whole career, how many did you work for?

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  I worked for three, four, actually.

• 1:16:00Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, right. So you've been at every stage of British media. Looking back, how do you feel about them?

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  I think I had the best of it, really. I certainly think in newspaper terms, it was before the internet had really taken hold, and so you were the receptacle for news for people. You know, there weren't many television networks. You didn't really have cable television when I was running the papers. So papers had much more influence and much more power because they were bringing the news to people. People woke up in the morning and they would read their paper to find out what had happened. That doesn't happen anymore. People already know what's happened. There are millions of news networks, all over cable news, there's millions of internet sites you can get the news. Everyone knows what's going on. So the point and relevance and power and influence of newspapers has dissipated. They can still break big stories and have big influence.

• 1:16:48Speaker 02

  And if I was running one again, A, I'd be completely digital by now. I'd just abandon print papers altogether, but the economic model is very difficult if you do that. You don't make as much from the digital side as you do from print. So they've got to weigh that up and somehow get through it. But I would invest heavily in investigative, longer-term journalism because that's how you can now bring news to people they don't already know.

• 1:17:09Tucker Carlson?

  Well, sure, but I meant, all true, totally true.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  But honestly, you're quite...

• 1:17:12Tucker Carlson?

  But I'm really asking about the honesty level.

• 1:17:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:15Tucker Carlson?

  So now you have a gig where you can say whatever you want, you're your own boss, you can make a real living. I have no idea how you're doing, but given your numbers are huge, so I bet you you're probably making more than you made before, or in that range, anyway. So it's all great, but the greatest part is... You can say exactly what you want. How would you compare that to your previous?

• 1:17:36Speaker 02

  I would say the difference is you, you, we can't get cancelled, right? Who's gonna cancel us? It ourselves. So we have a complete freedom and a sort of liberation from the restrictions inevitably come with working for big companies. Big companies in the media have really struggled, I think, to move with the way young people now get their information. They don't really understand the big legacy media companies that young people do not watch linear television. They don't read print newspapers.

• 1:18:06Tucker Carlson?

  What they've really struggled with is to stop lying. They can't stop lying. They're like compulsive liars.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  And they, and they have controlled the way news is dominated. The thing about you and me and other people that do this, whether you're on the left or the right, there's no control. Right? We don't get controlled by anybody. We're only answerable to ourselves and what we want to do. I think I'm like you in the sense of we're not politically aligned in many ways, but we love talking to each other, love debating, love arguing, love asking questions, love learning.

• 1:18:33Tucker Carlson?

  See, I think we are politically aligned. I think

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  We are in many ways.

• 1:18:36Tucker Carlson?

  You do own guns. I know that you do. I know that you do. And I know that you think this whole, your crazy thing is insane.

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  Let me tell you. Well, I don't, but let me tell you.

• 1:18:44Tucker Carlson?

  I know that you do. I can see it in your eyes. Like, how do I get out of this?

• 1:18:48Speaker 02

  There's a lot of milit- a lot of military in my family who know how to use guns better than me.

• 1:18:52Tucker Carlson?

  I know, but not all use of guns is equal, right? Some is counterproductive.

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  You know, the thing about guns, I'll just say this for your audience that will all be looking at me thinking I'm the two A gun grabber. The reality is this complete cultural difference. In my country, everybody used to have a gun. Everybody used to in the old days. Now, very few people have guns. There are incredibly tight restrictions. And the consequence of that is we have almost zero gun crime. The

• 1:19:19Tucker Carlson?

  Was your country, is London safe now?

• 1:19:21Speaker 02

  No, no. I'm about to come to that. The, the problem we have is with knives, right? So I'm not saying for a moment you get rid of all the guns, nobody gets killed. Of course they do. We have a knife crime problem epidemic in our country.

• 1:19:31Tucker Carlson?

  No, you have a people problem. You have the kind of people who stab each other and you didn't used to have that.

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  Well, we did. We did.

• 1:19:38Tucker Carlson?

  No, you didn't.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  We did.

• 1:19:39Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, it's measurable. How many people got stabbed in London in 1970 or shot compared to now?

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  Sure, but there are

• 1:19:44Tucker Carlson?

  It's a massive increase because the people, the attitudes of the people The actions of the people are totally different. You've got different people and different behaviors. And like, you can't admit that because, I'm not sure why.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  No, no, because actually, there are lots of white, English people who stab each other.

• 1:19:59Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know. Oh, I know.

• 1:20:00Speaker 02

  So it's not just about the influx of migrants, if that's what you're saying?

• 1:20:03Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I do think immigration has changed your country for the much, much worse.

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  Well, it's certainly changed the country.

• 1:20:10Tucker Carlson?

  Much worse. That's my opinion. But it's not just immigrants who are behaving badly at all. There are a lot of native-born indigenous Brits who are behaving badly. That is totally true. And there are a lot of immigrants in your country who are kind of superior, actually, if we're being totally honest, who are really impressive.

• 1:20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:25Tucker Carlson?

  I'm not making blanket statements. I'm just saying that the behavior has changed of the people who live there, right? You can't be trusted with guns now because you're out of control.

• 1:20:33Speaker 02

  Not about that. I just know we have very tight gun laws and no gun violence. The interesting, well, very little. My question for you...

• 1:20:39Tucker Carlson?

  But do you own a gun secretly?

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  I do not, no.

• 1:20:41Tucker Carlson?

  Do you want to?

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  You know why? I'd get five years in prison if I got caught with it.

• 1:20:45Tucker Carlson?

  So you're afraid of your government, which doesn't trust you because it's a dictatorship, I guess?

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Let me ask you a question about guns, since you raised it. Because I'm curious, genuinely curious. It's said there are over 400 million guns in circulation in America.

• 1:20:56Tucker Carlson?

  I hope so.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  And it's apparently a million new guns get sold every month. So that number exponentially rises. The number of mass shootings in America is also rising.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Do you think anything should be done about that? If I had my time again talking about this with Americans, I would never have been so censorious. I would never have been talking about gun control, I think the word "control" alienates Americans. But what I would have said was, how do you make it safer? How do you stop so many people getting shot? What do you do about it?

• 1:21:26Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you ban SSRIs immediately.

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  Immediately?

• 1:21:29Tucker Carlson?

  SSRIs. You ban whole categories of psycho...

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  Of medication.

• 1:21:34Tucker Carlson?

  Absolutely. Like, immediately.

• 1:21:38Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I mean, the truth is that, you know, drugs and alcohol drive a lot of our social ills, a lot of them. And when people are sober, and I would say, you know, if you're on Xanax or Prozac or whatever, you're not sober.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  Right, I agree.

• 1:21:53Tucker Carlson?

  But certainly alcohol and meth and, you know, most of our social problems are either caused or exacerbated.

• 1:22:01Tucker Carlson?

  By the drugs that people take, that's just a fact. And mass shootings are definitely in that category, so. Um, look, as you found out, your, your knife crime has just exponentially jumped recently.

• 1:22:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:13Tucker Carlson?

  And that's not because there are more knives. People use them at dinner every night and have for hundreds of years and not since the Roman times. They've used knives and not stabbed each other. It's because people are behaving differently.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:22:23Tucker Carlson?

  Why is that?

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 1:22:25Tucker Carlson?

  I must say, all the gun control people who want to send all the guns to Ukraine so they can go kill other Eastern Europeans, it's like, it's sort of weird. Do you think it's weird?

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  No, one thing is weird about the question I asked you is simply that if I was an American.

• 1:22:38Tucker Carlson?

  There's a lot of gun crime in Ukraine. Are you adding to that?

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  Well, it's a war, it's a different thing.

• 1:22:42Tucker Carlson?

  It's gun crime, I call it gun crime. People getting killed with guns.

• 1:22:44Speaker 02

  You think Ukraine defending itself is a crime?

• 1:22:47Tucker Carlson?

  I think there are a lot of people getting killed with guns and I think it's really sad and we should disarm Ukraine.

• 1:22:52Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:22:53Tucker Carlson?

  Well, sure, people are getting killed with guns. They shouldn't have, there should be strict controls on guns in Ukraine. Automatic weapons, you guys are sending automatic weapons to Ukraine to kill other human beings. I just think that, I'm just not comfortable with that morally.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  See, see what you're doing, Tucker.

• 1:23:07Tucker Carlson?

  You're doing the British Cheshire Cat thing with me.

• 1:23:11Speaker 02

  No, because I think it's a fatuous argument, but it's fine.

• 1:23:15Tucker Carlson?

  Fatuous meaning brilliant?

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  You're avoiding asking my, answering my question.

• 1:23:19Tucker Carlson?

  Which is, why do we have so many guns?

• 1:23:20Speaker 02

  No, no, no, didn't ask that.

• 1:23:22Tucker Carlson?

  Because we're free, because no one can tell us we can't defend ourselves.

• 1:23:24Speaker 02

  We all used to have guns too.

• 1:23:25Tucker Carlson?

  And then you guys, after the Second World War, which was like a liberation war and you won, you lost all your freedom and now you can't even express your political opinions or they put you in jail. So like, how did you win? How did you win? Is that what victory looks like? You lose all your rights, your economy gets destroyed, you're controlled by bankers and all of a sudden, oh, I won!

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  We won because I'm not conducting this interview in German, which I would be.

• 1:23:47Tucker Carlson?

  So it's a linguistic thing?

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  I'd rather not speak German and be goose stepping around my yard in England, yeah.

• 1:23:53Tucker Carlson?

  But you are goose stepping, people are arrested for praying.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  We literally won our freedom.

• 1:23:58Tucker Carlson?

  Where's your freedom? You can get arrested.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  I'm as free as you could possibly want a human being to be.

• 1:24:02Tucker Carlson?

  You can't defend yourself, you can't control who comes into your country, and you can't criticize government policies, or you get arrested. So how are you free? You're a slave, aren't you?

• 1:24:11Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:24:12Tucker Carlson?

  Really? How free are you?

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  We have cultural problems in our country and societal problems.

• 1:24:16Tucker Carlson?

  Could you go on Facebook right now and say, "I don't want any more immigrants in my country, they're making it worse"?

• 1:24:20Speaker 02

  Uh, you could say that, what you couldn't say, because a lot of these stories, I have to say, in America have been spun completely disingenuously. There's one case, for example, I see everyone trying to send me as an example of, "Britain's gone mad, Elon Musk has done it, he's a guy who got seven years in prison." Actually, what he was doing, this guy, was he was orchestrating and directing rioting on hotels containing asylum seekers, because he had a incorrect belief that someone who had stabbed three young girls to death and stabbed loads of others in a horrific attack was an illegal asylum seeker.

• 1:24:56Tucker Carlson?

  Maybe he doesn't want asylum seekers in his country. Does that okay?

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  Fine, it's not okay to have no asylum seekers. It is not okay to allow too many people to come in.

• 1:25:03Tucker Carlson?

  Why is it not okay to have no asylum seekers?

• 1:25:05Speaker 02

  It's not okay to have a broken asylum system as we have.

• 1:25:07Tucker Carlson?

  Why have any asylum seekers?

• 1:25:08Speaker 02

  Because I believe you should, as a good country. Because we're a caring, compassionate country. And by the way, Britain, for all your knocking of Britain...

• 1:25:14Tucker Carlson?

  How is that caring and compassionate? Your native population is in massive decline. How is that compassionate to your people?

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  Britain actually is one of the most tolerant multicultural countries in the world, to this day.

• 1:25:24Tucker Carlson?

  Then why do you have so many stabbings?

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  We have a problem with stabbings. You know what? How many people get killed by stabbings a year in Britain compared...

• 1:25:31Tucker Carlson?

  It's evidence, do you think, that you have a problem? We're very compassionate. We do have a lot of stabbings.

• 1:25:35Speaker 02

  Fine, but by your criteria, they're just defending themselves. Haven't they got a right to bear arms?

• 1:25:40Tucker Carlson?

  Okay.

• 1:25:40Speaker 02

  Well, hang on, have they?

• 1:25:41Tucker Carlson?

  We didn't have, like, really any stabbing. Forty years ago, now you've got a ton of stabbing, but everything's totally fine, and if you complain about it, you're going to jail.

• 1:25:48Speaker 02

  Do the British people have a right to bear arms, Tucker?

• 1:25:51Tucker Carlson?

  All free people have a right to defend themselves.

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  Bear arms?

• 1:25:54Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, yeah.

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  So they can carry knives? So why are you annoyed about the life crime?

• 1:26:01Tucker Carlson?

  I'm against all crime. Look, here's my only point.

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  I'm sure if I use the Tucker Carlson argument, "Well, the other guy's got a knife, I better carry one."

• 1:26:08Tucker Carlson?

  In the United States, which is governed by a system we inherited with great gratitude from you, from the English, a person has a right, which is, we believe, God-given, it's inherent, we're born with it, because we're not slaves, we're free people, to say what he thinks is true, period, period. And government has to not only not infringe on that right, but protect it. It exists to protect that right. Your system is a little different. We took it a little farther and enshrined that in our Bill of Rights, which unfortunately you don't have, I bet you wish you did. But from an American perspective, the idea that you would ever punish someone for talking...

• 1:26:40Speaker 02

  But that wasn't why that guy was punished.

• 1:26:42Tucker Carlson?

  But, that may be right. I would not contest that.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  It is right. He was literally inciting a riot.

• 1:26:47Tucker Carlson?

  But you would also not contest that there are hundreds of people who've gone to jail in the last five years in the UK for expressing opinions. That is a fact.

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  It depends what you think that opinion is. Most of them have been directing violence or inciting violence. That's different.

• 1:26:59Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think that's right, Pierre. I don't think they were charged with that.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  That is right. And also, look at the case of Tommy Robinson. Tommy Robinson, most Americans I speak to think he's in jail as some kind of political prisoner like Nelson Mandela for having views about...

• 1:27:14Tucker Carlson?

  Or Julian Assange.

• 1:27:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, but that's not why. Tommy Robinson's in jail because he defamed a young Syrian refugee. Yeah, he lied about him. Well, he did. But he was then... No, the guy eventually...

• 1:27:24Tucker Carlson?

  How many of your leaders have gone to jail for lying?

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:27:27Tucker Carlson?

  How many of your leaders have gone to jail for lying? They lie constantly. Every time they speak, they lie.

• 1:27:31Speaker 02

  Not enough. Not enough.

• 1:27:32Tucker Carlson?

  Right around zero, actually. But they throw powerless people in jail for saying things they don't like.

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  You also have a defamation law in the United States. People have gone to jail for breaking that law. That's happened. So you're not so pure yourselves.

• 1:27:45Tucker Carlson?

  Criminal...

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  Yes, you do. Criminal defamation, you do. Go and check it. Go and check it.

• 1:27:50Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. There's a lawyer sitting right there, but he's occupied.

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  And you've had people go to prison in America for defamation, for libeling people, for saying things that you don't like. It's happened.

• 1:28:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I'm just pausing because I don't know if that's true.

• 1:28:04Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 1:28:04Tucker Carlson?

  I think I would be opposed to that.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  It is true.

• 1:28:06Tucker Carlson?

  Do people go to jail in the United States for defamation?

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:28:09Speaker 05

  They face civil judgment.

• 1:28:10Tucker Carlson?

  They face civil judgment.

• 1:28:11Speaker 02

  People have gone to jail.

• 1:28:12Tucker Carlson?

  I think you're making this up out of nothing.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  No, I'm not. Go and check it.

• 1:28:14Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, let me check with an actual American.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  People have been...

• 1:28:16Tucker Carlson?

  You're an American, right? This is my college roommate.

• 1:28:20Tucker Carlson?

  Right. Oh, he was born in the UK. But this is my college roommate who's an attorney.

• 1:28:23Speaker 02

  I had all this debate... I had all this debate on Twitter recently. People are...

• 1:28:27Speaker 05

  I think there's a criminal defamation.

• 1:28:28Speaker 02

  There is.

• 1:28:29Tucker Carlson?

  Where?

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  Go and check it.

• 1:28:31Speaker 05

  In certain states.

• 1:28:32Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:28:33Tucker Carlson?

  Has anyone gone to jail for that?

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:28:35Tucker Carlson?

  I've never heard of that.

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  Sorry, the British guy is now telling Americans about their own law. I'm pleased, obviously, but...

• 1:28:42Tucker Carlson?

  I think I'm gonna, um... I'm gonna dismiss that as a...

• 1:28:45Speaker 02

  Take the fifth?

• 1:28:46Tucker Carlson?

  I've never... No, no, no, not take the fifth. But the point is, um... You should never allow anybody in your country to go to jail for having unpopular opinions.

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  It depends if they're inciting violence. That's the criteria.

• 1:28:57Tucker Carlson?

  What does that even mean?

• 1:28:58Speaker 02

  I do think, by the way, for what it's worth, that some people have been put in jail for saying stuff on Facebook that they shouldn't have been in jail. I agree with that.

• 1:29:06Tucker Carlson?

  The Criminal Prosecution Service, CPS, shared a video on X warning people about using social media. And it stated this, and I'm quoting. I can't do the English accent, but this is what they said.

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  Try.

• 1:29:15Tucker Carlson?

  "Think before you post!" exclamation point. "Content that incites violence or hatred..."

• 1:29:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:29:22Tucker Carlson?

  "...isn't just harmful, it can be illegal." Paging George Orwell. "The CPS takes online violence seriously and will prosecute when the legal test is met. Remind those close to you to share responsibility or face the consequences." So that's just like North Korea at that point. You're inciting hatred?

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  If you're inciting violence against people...

• 1:29:40Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, or hatred.

• 1:29:41Speaker 02

  Right, but the violence you'd agree with.

• 1:29:42Tucker Carlson?

  Inciting violence? I don't know what that means.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  It means you literally direct people to go and attack an asylum seeker or hotel.

• 1:29:48Tucker Carlson?

  No, that's directing violence. Inciting violence...

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  Well, that's the same thing.

• 1:29:51Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's not the same. It's not the same. So if I say, "Pierce, I want you to go..."

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  Go and beat up Alex.

• 1:29:57Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:29:58Speaker 02

  That's inciting and directing violence. It's the same thing.

• 1:30:01Tucker Carlson?

  But then I could... You could say...

• 1:30:02Speaker 02

  Same thing.

• 1:30:03Tucker Carlson?

  And you're... It's not the same. Your government...

• 1:30:04Speaker 02

  What's the difference?

• 1:30:05Tucker Carlson?

  Hold on. I'll tell you what the difference is. Your government is saying that some opinions are so inflammatory that they inspire people to commit acts of violence.

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:30:15Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. That is a definition that justifies censorship.

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  If you want my honest opinion, some of the ones who've gone to prison should not be in prison.

• 1:30:24Tucker Carlson?

  How about inciting hatred?

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  Well, it depends what you're intending to do.

• 1:30:28Tucker Carlson?

  How do you measure hatred?

• 1:30:31Tucker Carlson?

  Do you have a hatred meter?

• 1:30:33Speaker 02

  Me?

• 1:30:34Tucker Carlson?

  Does UK government? I mean, you're defending it, so like...

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm not defending it. I'm literally telling you I'm not defending that. I'm saying there are people who've been put in prison.

• 1:30:40Tucker Carlson?

  Why do you overthrow your government? It's a tyrannical government.

• 1:30:43Speaker 02

  I will always support people's right to have hateful views. That's fine. I don't agree with the government.

• 1:30:48Tucker Carlson?

  But it's a crime.

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  I don't agree with that, right? But it depends what they're saying.

• 1:30:51Tucker Carlson?

  What are you doing to overthrow the tyranny that slays you?

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  If the incitement of hatred makes people go and act, commit acts of violence, and you intend it to, that should be a crime. You shouldn't incite people to go and commit acts of violence.

• 1:31:04Tucker Carlson?

  But if I say something that the government doesn't like, and this is, of course, it's all self-preservation here. They're not... No one is ever penalized for attacking... If you get up and you say, "I hate Vladimir Putin and all Russians", you're not gonna go to jail in the UK for that, because that's the official policy of your government.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  You wouldn't go to prison in the UK?

• 1:31:22Tucker Carlson?

  No!

• 1:31:23Speaker 02

  No, no, but you wouldn't...

• 1:31:23Tucker Carlson?

  They can lynch Russians, and they're really like, "Well, you have a right to say that."

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you asked me earlier, if you said you hate immigrants, you wouldn't go to prison for that. If you said that they're all over there in that hotel, go and throw firebombs at it, that should be a crime, shouldn't it?

• 1:31:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, if you're telling people to go commit...

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  That's what most of these cases involve.

• 1:31:40Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's not. It's not what it said. That's not true!

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  The cases you're talking about are people who've been in prison.

• 1:31:44Tucker Carlson?

  Content that incites hatred isn't just harmful, it can be illegal.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  So my criteria...

• 1:31:51Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but I'm talking about your government, and I'm asking why...

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  I've told you I don't agree with it.

• 1:31:54Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's dictatorship, from what I can tell.

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  I don't... Yes...

• 1:31:57Tucker Carlson?

  How is it not dictatorship? The government is saying, "Things that we hate are illegal, we're gonna put you in prison."

• 1:32:02Speaker 02

  I'm half agreeing with you.

• 1:32:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, good. So what are you doing to change it? So you've got a prime minister now...

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  On my show regularly saying, "I think it's wrong."

• 1:32:09Tucker Carlson?

  But at a certain point, don't people have a right to do what the American colonists did? And that's to throw off tyranny, because their rights are inherent. They're given by God because they're human beings.

• 1:32:19Speaker 02

  So you want them to be violent?

• 1:32:21Tucker Carlson?

  Of course not. I'm totally opposed to violence. You're the one who was justifying firebombing stuff.

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  Wasn't the example you just gave, wasn't it conducted with violence?

• 1:32:27Tucker Carlson?

  Of course not. But you should be single-minded in getting a government that permits people to live like human beings, not like slaves, right?

• 1:32:39Speaker 02

  I don't think anyone should be able to use on social media, uh, they shouldn't be using rhetoric, which is inciting violence, period. Hate, I think this idea of what is hate is a much more complex thing. I don't feel comfortable, somebody who believes in free speech, if people are saying hateful things and being put in prison. It's wrong.

• 1:32:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, well, inciting violence is an absurd standard because, and this, they tried to take me out many times with this, some wacko will go shoot innocents and be like, "He watched this show," or "He had the same opinions as you." It's like, I couldn't be more against violence. I'm mad at my government because it funds violence around the world.

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:14Tucker Carlson?

  So, inciting violence is just a way to get your critics to shut up, so you can continue to loot their country and wreck it.

• 1:33:19Speaker 02

  But if I say to people here, "Can you come and stab Tucker?"

• 1:33:22Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, but that's, that's not inciting, that's like directing. It's like being a criminal master.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  I think you'll find, look, I may be wrong, but I'm rarely, I'm rarely wrong in, in linguistic matters. I think you'll find the definition of inciting and directing is not dissimilar.

• 1:33:37Tucker Carlson?

  You know as well as I, and I don't know why you would defend it, that your government is stifling criticism of itself, of its own illegitimate leadership, using law enforcement.

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  I think in relation to hate crime, yes, they've overreached on that. In, in relation to using social media...

• 1:33:54Tucker Carlson?

  But they flooded your country...

• 1:33:56Speaker 02

  We had riots last summer, but Tucker...

• 1:33:57Tucker Carlson?

  And that's very unpopular with the native population, always has been, always has been, and the government for 40 years has told them, in increasing volume, to shut up and stop complaining, and now it's putting them in jail for complaining about it. That's, that's the truth.

• 1:34:09Speaker 02

  That, it's not as simplistic as that.

• 1:34:11Tucker Carlson?

  Of course it's not as simplistic as that. Of course not. I, I agree. I'm overgeneralizing.

• 1:34:17Speaker 02

  By the way, you wouldn't have a country without a flood of immigrants, America wouldn't exist.

• 1:34:22Tucker Carlson?

  But you're not America, you have a native population. It's been there since the beginning of time.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  Why would you object to the concept of a flood of immigrants? You literally got built on it.

• 1:34:29Tucker Carlson?

  Well, look what happened to your country.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  Hmm? I'm talking about your country!

• 1:34:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, but my country is by its nature different.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  Built on the premise of immigrants.

• 1:34:37Tucker Carlson?

  You're a monarchy run by the head of your church.

• 1:34:40Speaker 02

  There's a monarchy here.

• 1:34:41Tucker Carlson?

  Right, and they're living as they should, which is consistent with their values, and your country isn't. So that's all I'm saying.

• 1:34:48Speaker 02

  I think our monarchy, well, I think the kings are fine, man.

• 1:34:52Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:34:53Speaker 02

  My king, yes.

• 1:34:55Tucker Carlson?

  Hmm. What has he done to preserve? England?

• 1:34:59Speaker 02

  Preserve England?

• 1:35:00Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:00Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 1:35:02Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I don't know. I mean, it-

• 1:35:03Speaker 02

  Well, he's a Christian, he should like-

• 1:35:04Tucker Carlson?

  He's the head of the, what is-

• 1:35:06Speaker 02

  He's the head of the Church of England, he should-

• 1:35:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, he does.

• 1:35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:08Tucker Carlson?

  How's, how's church attendance?

• 1:35:10Speaker 02

  He goes quite regularly.

• 1:35:12Tucker Carlson?

  Come on, it's all a joke, dude. You had a Christian country, now you don't. So, that's not a win, that's a failure.

• 1:35:18Speaker 02

  We have a far less Christian country, I agree.

• 1:35:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:21Speaker 02

  I've said about that as a Christian-

• 1:35:22Tucker Carlson?

  So, can I ask you, um, Kirsten Palmer? Seems like the most unpopular, now that Trudeau's gone, the most unpopular leader in the West.

• 1:35:32Speaker 02

  He's certainly gone from a, winning with a big majority last summer to being incredibly unpopular very quickly.

• 1:35:39Tucker Carlson?

  Can he hang on, you've got four more years of this, ish? Is that right?

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, I would say that there's a reasonable chance he will contest at the next election in four years' time. It depends, really, that how the next year goes. I mean, I've never seen anyone lose such political, uh, capital so quickly.

• 1:35:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  And he did it because he came in and decided that the strategy he would do is to say, "The Tories were so awful that the country's now in a terrible state. So bad that we're gonna have to do all these punitive taxes, and we're gonna have to whack the pensioners, and we're gonna have to whack the farmers, and punish all these groups of people." And everyone was like, "Wow, you've waited fourteen years in opposition, and this is what you're doing?"

• 1:36:20Tucker Carlson?

  What did farmers do wrong? I never understood that.

• 1:36:22Speaker 02

  They make our food. I mean, it's ridiculous. Most of them live, literally lose-

• 1:36:26Tucker Carlson?

  Because British food's not good? Is that what's up with farmers?

• 1:36:28Speaker 02

  Most of them lose money, farmers. And the idea, he created the impression that a lot of pensioners can afford it, a lot of farmers can afford it. Actually, most of them can't. Most of them can't.

• 1:36:36Tucker Carlson?

  But why would you target farm- I mean, it's just-

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  Inexplicable.

• 1:36:39Tucker Carlson?

  But it's happened throughout Europe and the United States, attacking farmers. And it seems like part of a bigger-

• 1:36:44Speaker 02

  Should reward farmers. Farmers are the lifeblood of any civilized country.

• 1:36:49Tucker Carlson?

  Right, but if you're looking big picture, if you're opposed to famine, and you're for human flourishing and people, then you'd wanna do whatever you could- To have enough food.

• 1:37:00Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:37:00Tucker Carlson?

  And if, country by country by country, Germany, Great Britain, Denmark, Holland, they're all attacking farmers, United States. Maybe there's a bigger anti-human agenda at work. Does it, do you see that?

• 1:37:12Speaker 02

  I just think there's a, it's a pretty dumb political agenda that's been pursued so far.

• 1:37:16Tucker Carlson?

  It's not just dumb, it's like weird.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Tucker Carlson?

  Of all the groups you'd attack, white farmers.

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  Makes no sense.

• 1:37:21Tucker Carlson?

  It does make sense though, doesn't it?

• 1:37:22Speaker 02

  Why?

• 1:37:24Tucker Carlson?

  Well, clearly there's an effort to reduce the human population. If you're, if all these countries.

• 1:37:29Speaker 02

  You think he's, you think he wants to starve the Brits and kill us?

• 1:37:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't know. I, I don't, you know, you can't assess the motives of individuals, they're unknowable.

• 1:37:37Speaker 02

  He's trying to starve the British people.

• 1:37:38Tucker Carlson?

  Okay. I, I don't know him. I don't know what he's trying to do.

• 1:37:41Speaker 02

  Tell him, talk.

• 1:37:41Tucker Carlson?

  No, no, no, no, no, you, no, you come on. Look around the world. Government after government after government, around the world, is endorsing policies that they know will reduce birth rates. Is attacking agriculture. And is allowing, I don't know, drugs and food that kill people and make them less healthy. So if you add that all up, you don't have to know their motives, you just look at the effects and you're like, the effect is to kill people. What is going on here? Do you ever wonder that?

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  Crap governance by a series.

• 1:38:16Tucker Carlson?

  It's consistent around, it's like, every country's like, you know, we should have people kill themselves.

• 1:38:22Tucker Carlson?

  Well, how would you ever come up with that?

• 1:38:23Speaker 02

  At a time when we need more people, not less.

• 1:38:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. What do you think that is?

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  Bad governing. I mean, the, the.

• 1:38:30Tucker Carlson?

  But why is it the same in every country?

• 1:38:32Speaker 02

  Well, I just think the food thing in particular, look how fat everyone's getting.

• 1:38:35Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  I mean, fat, lazy, sedentary, and you're like, that can't be good for anyone.

• 1:38:41Tucker Carlson?

  No, but why is it happening?

• 1:38:43Speaker 02

  Bad, bad politicians.

• 1:38:45Tucker Carlson?

  But why is every politician in every Western country coming to the same set of policies whose effect is fewer children?

• 1:38:54Tucker Carlson?

  More unhealthy dead people. Like, I mean, you don't have to be a conspiracy nut to just say, "I'm looking at just the numbers."

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is-

• 1:39:00Tucker Carlson?

  How many kids per family, dropping?

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  That is the consequence of all the political actions that have been taken, I agree. I don't think it's a mad global conspiracy in the way you might be inferring.

• 1:39:10Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't-

• 1:39:11Speaker 02

  I don't know, I don't know. Yeah, but I don't, listen, I know where you're coming from on this. I don't believe they're actually smart enough to do that, from the politicians.

• 1:39:19Tucker Carlson?

  Then why are they all doing it? All of them?

• 1:39:21Speaker 02

  I think because they're not very competent, and they're not very good, and they're lazy. And they're going along like-

• 1:39:26Tucker Carlson?

  The law of averages would suggest that, like, I don't know, the governments of Spain, Belgium, New Zealand, pick another, Mexico, would adopt the opposite policies. Like, "We're gonna pay you to have more kids," not one of them.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Here's what I agree with about, it's wrong, and it's got to change. We need more people, not less, we need better food, not crap food. We need to reduce the size of our human beings whilst increasing populations. Otherwise, the planet's gonna kill itself, gonna basically self-implode and die out, as Elon Musk keeps warning. He's right.

• 1:39:59Tucker Carlson?

  I agree with that. I'm gonna end on this-

• 1:40:02Speaker 02

  Have we ended on agreement?

• 1:40:03Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I just wanna know, you're, since you're, I think, good at predictions, how do you think the war in Ukraine will end?

• 1:40:10Speaker 02

  Um, I think it will end, I do think Donald Trump will get a deal. I do think in the end that Russia will probably keep most of the land they've taken. I personally wish that wasn't the case, but I think that's how this gets ended. And I hope that Ukraine get enough guarantees that the rest of their country won't get taken down the line. We saw Crimea go, we've seen the East go, pretty much. Uh, and I suspect Vladimir Putin, I believe, will try and take the rest of it. I may be wrong, I hope I'm wrong. I hope it gets, a deal gets done soon, because too many people are dying. I heard the other day that 100,000 people on that battlefield died in six weeks, on both sides collectively. I mean, this is horrendous, this has been the stuff you saw at the Somme, right? I mean, it's like-

• 1:40:54Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree, but do you think it's kind of, I, I strongly agree with you, and I have for two and a half years, but why is it only now that we're getting sort of more realistic casualty figures? How could a government fund a war without knowing how many people died in that war?

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  You think the Ukrainians have not been telling the truth about it?

• 1:41:13Tucker Carlson?

  I think the US and British governments have both lied about it, and kept those numbers from the public. And I feel like that's a crime.

• 1:41:21Speaker 02

  They should tell the truth, they should be transparent. If that's the case, it's wrong.

• 1:41:26Tucker Carlson?

  I hope you'll go back to Great Britain and grab them by the throat and make them tell the truth.

• 1:41:30Speaker 02

  You know what, you made me think, go back to Britain and make us, jolt us into action. You know what I like about the Trump thing in the last week? Just the sense of hope, optimism.

• 1:41:41Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I agree.

• 1:41:42Speaker 02

  Even before the election, when he went down to watch one of Elon Musk's rockets launch. And just the fact that America's back in the business of going into space, aiming to go to the moon, aiming to go to Mars. Yes. Where's that in my country? Where is that kind of dynamism? Where is someone hitting the ground with 200 things they want to do? Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

• 1:42:04Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  You may not agree with all them, but my God, the energy that Trump is expending, the dynamism, the aspiration, the the thing of making America great again. I got a feeling this time around, Trump's gonna have a very good four years. I'm not so convinced about my country, and I want to get that kind of oomph and energy and dynamism in Britain. Because I don't disagree with a lot of the characterization you've had of we are a country in the doldrums right now. We are.

• 1:42:31Tucker Carlson?

  And it solves a lot of problems. I think that's really smart.

• 1:42:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:33Tucker Carlson?

  You know, the energy, the attitude.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  All of it.

• 1:42:35Tucker Carlson?

  Why are people doing heroin in the first place?

• 1:42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:37Tucker Carlson?

  Why would you want to do fentanyl?

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:38Tucker Carlson?

  Because you're hopeless.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  We have a terrible drugs problem.

• 1:42:40Tucker Carlson?

  No, I agree.

• 1:42:41Speaker 02

  In our country. Terrible. You have a bad drug problem in America.

• 1:42:44Tucker Carlson?

  And you solve it with attitude.

• 1:42:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, you do.

• 1:42:45Tucker Carlson?

  Piers Morgan, thank you for taking all this time.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  I enjoyed it.

• 1:42:47Tucker Carlson?

  It's great to see you in Saudi Arabia.

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  It was still against us, I'm sorry.

• 1:42:50Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  Thanks very much. Enjoyed it.