First Rental in 2016, Financially Free in 2026 (Every Strategy I Used)

Ten years ago, Erika Brown bought her first investment property. Now, a decade later, she’s financially free, with a portfolio she’s slowly starting to scale down so she can do less, enjoy her life more, and build the early retirement lifestyle she had always dreamed of. But it wasn’t always like this. Back in 2012, Erika was working at a bank, climbing the corporate ladder, with no thought of ever retiring before 65. She just couldn’t ignore one thing—every wealthy client at the bank was investing in real estate. They were on to something she wasn’t, so she tried her first house hack—fixing up a basement unit while raising three kids and working nine-to-five. Then, a few years later, the real investing began. Erika did everything—short-term rentals, Section 8 long-term rentals, cashing out her 401(k) to renovate, renting out rooms, buying up entire blocks. She gives her true, honest take on which strategies are worth the effort, which have a bad rap but strong cash flow, and why she’s scaling down, not up, only 10 years into her investing career. In This Episode We Cover How to break out of the paycheck-to-paycheck cycle starting with one property You’re wrong about Section 8: How to get great tenants with government rent checks Is coliving (rent-by-the-room) really worth it? Would you trade your retirement account for a rental property? Why Erika pulled the trigger Why you need to change your rental strategy often to keep cash flowing And So Much More! Check out more resources from this show on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BiggerPockets.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠h⁠⁠t⁠t⁠ps://www⁠.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-1291⁠⁠⁠⁠. Interested in learning more about today’s sponsors or becoming a BiggerPockets partner yourself? Email ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Henry Washington?

  Before real estate, Erika Brown was working at a bank, raising three kids paycheck to paycheck, just trying to climb the corporate ladder. Now, a decade later, she owns an entire portfolio of very different rentals, has reached financial freedom, and is doing what nobody expects, selling off her houses. But Erica is not going backwards, far from that. She's actually about to unlock an even better lifestyle, one with fewer rentals, lots of cash flow, and way more freedom. Over the past 10 years, she's tried every strategy in the book. Section 8, house hacking, renting out rooms, short-term rentals, burrs, and more. Today, she's explaining her favorites, and why some of the ones you're told to avoid are actually the best rentals to own,

• 0:43Henry Washington?

  and nobody's paying attention to them. So how do you, like Erica, have the fewest number of rentals with the most cash flow and freedom? Listen up, you're about to find out.

• 0:57Henry Washington?

  What's going on, everybody? I'm Henry Washington, co-host of the BiggerPockets Podcast, and today's guest on the show is my friend, investor Erika Brown. So let's bring her on. Erika Brown, welcome back to the BiggerPockets Podcast.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  Happy to be here. Thanks for having me back.

• 1:13Henry Washington?

  I love chatting with you. I love hearing more about your story. Interested to hear what you've got going on. So for those of you who may not have heard your previous episode on the BiggerPockets Podcast, I want you to tell us a little bit about your story again. Take us back to the beginning. How'd you first get into real estate?

• 1:30Speaker 01

  Oh, man, that's a fun story. It has now been 10 years. I have officially been investing in real estate and also a full-time businesswoman for 10 years. It's crazy. But yeah, previous to being in real estate full-time, I was a banker, and I was in the finance industry, and just was trying to figure it out. Had three young kids, husband, you know, starting out, brand-new city. I live in Atlanta, Georgia, and we were trying to get out of that paycheck-to-paycheck cycle, and bought our first property using a FHA loan, 203K, during times when it was pretty scary.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  It was right after the recession. Bought a house, renovated a basement, and became a house hacker before you guys turned house hacking. For us, it was, can we make some money to pay these, you know, childcare bills?

• 2:28Henry Washington?

  It used to be called hustling back then.

• 2:29Speaker 01

  Yes, it was hustling. And then I started reading books. I read Rich Dad Poor Dad and all the things. And I just got the bug. I moved to a neighborhood that was up and coming in Atlanta and fell in love with real estate that way as well. And next thing you know, I had helped like 10 people buy houses through the local real estate agent.

• 2:52Henry Washington?

  Yeah.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  So my journey was I started investing in real estate after becoming a real estate agent. I knew the end goal wasn't to be a real estate agent, but I knew that I could sell houses clearly. Because I had already referred all this money, a hundred thousand dollars worth of commissions. So we have a portfolio of businesses now outside of real estate and within real estate. And it's been pretty amazing, the journey so.

• 3:20Henry Washington?

  All right, so this was 2012 when you did the first house hack.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:26Henry Washington?

  Right? And then in 2016, you moved and got all your friends to buy houses and you didn't get paid for any of it.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  I said, how much does real estate agents make in commissions? Wait.

• 3:42Henry Washington?

  Did you get your license that same year? Did you do, or was that after?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Yes, I got my license that same year and it was really hard, but got it done.

• 3:50Henry Washington?

  And then when did you do your very first like official real estate deal?

• 3:55Speaker 01

  So I believe I left my job March of 2016 and we did our official first real estate deal that fall. I was working for an investor. You know, when you're a new agent, you gotta take everything that you can get.

• 4:09Henry Washington?

  You get all the trash leads.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Whatever. Okay. And I had an investor, which I love working the investors because they're always buying, you know? And so I had an investor who was like, drive this neighborhood and write down these addresses and try to find these owners. And if you find some deals, I'll buy them. And so I knew that this thing called the Atlanta Belt Line was coming. And it was supposed to have completely transformed the entire city. And I've seen that there was one property that was listed on there that was right by the future Belt Line. And so I was like, let me buy this one for myself. And so I cashed in my 401k and we bought the property. It was, it had previously been a section eight property.

• 4:54Henry Washington?

  Okay.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  So in my mind, I'm like, it's, it was at least livable.

• 4:58Henry Washington?

  Right.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  So, you know, we bought it and then we did a, a very minor renovation. And at the time, Airbnb was very new. I had met another investor that had, had, had some success doing Airbnb. So I was like, well, let's do this. And we set up that property and we were able to make our full investment in our down payment back within the first year.

• 5:21Henry Washington?

  Oh, wow. That's incredible. So you, you, you got in right during the Airbnb boom. So.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:27Henry Washington?

  That's cool. That's amazing timing too. So you, you cashed out your 401k and paid cash is what you're saying?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Used a portion of that as a down payment.

• 5:35Henry Washington?

  Okay.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  And then we got a conventional loan, 20%. It was in my husband's name because I left my job and no one was giving me a loan. And I didn't know anything about DSCR, commercial loans or anything like that.

• 5:48Henry Washington?

  Yep.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  So, yeah, so we got our first property and we just bought, we just got like a standard conventional loan. We funded the renovation with a credit card, got 0% interest for 12 months. So, you know, it was, it was pretty risky, but I, I, I knew that we could do it because we had already did it with the house hack. And I made a decision that I wanted to do it.

• 6:10Henry Washington?

  Yeah.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  So we were gonna make it happen.

• 6:12Henry Washington?

  Making a decision regardless of if you know how it's going to happen, helps you figure out how it's gonna happen.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:19Henry Washington?

  Because you've turned your brain on to helping you figure out how. It's like a mindset hack, right? People call it manifesting. You can call it what you want. It's you simply telling your brain to help you figure it out, right?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:34Henry Washington?

  And so when you make that decision, all of a sudden, you find ways to get it done. And then you talked about a 0% interest credit card to fund the renovation. These are things that we've talked about before, but they're absolutely options for people if that 0% interest timeframe.

• 6:53Henry Washington?

  Allows you more than enough time to finish the project. Where you get into trouble is if you got a zero percent interest for ninety days or six months and you can't get it done, then you're getting slapped with twenty five percent interest because you can't pay off that credit card yet, right? So when you do that, you have to A, make sure that you're financially responsible enough to use the money appropriately. B, you have to have enough time, not just to get the job done, but to be able to get that property refinanced or sold. So you get the cash to pay that off before that twenty something percent interest hits you because they backdate that interest to your very first purchase on this zero percent interest.

• 7:34Henry Washington?

  So if you're responsible enough with money and it has enough time horizon for you to like, lots of cushion. Don't assume it's a six months, I can get it done in four. No, no, that's not enough.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  No, not enough. This was a very minor cosmetic renovation that ended up taking about two months. So we, we had more than enough time to pay it off.

• 7:56Henry Washington?

  Cool. So you did your first one and then I, I mean, I know this about you. You've, you've done a litany of things since then. So kind of give us the, the somewhat quick version of like, what kinds of deals did you do? And then what, what does your portfolio look like now?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  For the first few years, it was just kind of like buying properties, doing minor renovations. After I had leftover money from commissions type of thing. Then I learned how to do a BRRRR. I reached out to one of my investor clients who was like, how are y'all buying some properties so, so fast and you're doing this and doing that? And so then he introduced me to a banker and I was able to get a portfolio loan. And so I, I, I learned how to leverage equity. And again, because I forced appreciation in a, in a market that was massively appreciating, I had room to conservatively do this. And so then we went from buying like one property to buying seven in one year, leveraging a portfolio loan.

• 8:57Henry Washington?

  What year was that when you bought seven?

• 8:59Speaker 01

  It was probably like twenty nineteen. It was before COVID.

• 9:04Henry Washington?

  Woo, got it, girl. That's a great time to have bought seven.

• 9:07Speaker 01

  So then I started like, okay, I want to challenge myself. Let's do two units. Let's do, you know, duplexes, let's do quads. In between that, I bought a twenty unit apartment complex. I learned a lot, a lot.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  With that deal, I learned that bigger isn't necessarily more money.

• 9:26Henry Washington?

  Say that again, because we hear the opposite all the time, right? Like, I'm gonna buy multifamily, it's less problems, it's all one, it's all under one roof. Right? And, and I'm not saying that multifamily can't be more profitable. It absolutely can.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 9:45Henry Washington?

  But it's not, I, I think when people say this, it almost sounds like they're saying it's the same level of effort as owning a single family. And so you might as well own multi, multifamily. Like, I've heard people say that. So, so what's, what's your take on that, given your experience with that deal?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  If you're thinking about it from like just economy of scale and you think it's that simple, it's not that simple. Um, I remember our first year owning the 20 unit, we had to replace like six AC units in one summer. That is four thousand, five thousand a pop, you know? So you have to multiply your reserves, you have to multiply your manpower. Um, if you have, if you happen to have a lot of vacancy all of a sudden, for in my market, I'm in Atlanta, which is similar to a lot of the major markets like Austin and Phoenix and where, you know, during COVID, there was a huge housing shortage. So what happened, developers built a ton of apartments.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  And so when you start to see the brand new apartments dropping their prices, and I have the, you know, older apartments that I've renovated from the 50s and 60s, if you have the option to rent for the same amount, the brand new apartments with the concierge and the gym, which one are you gonna choose?

• 11:06Speaker 01

  And so we had to make some pretty good pivots really fast. And so I just learned a lot and, and, and truth be told, I had some properties when I, I do what's called a portfolio audit once a quarter, where we review our portfolio to figure out what's making money, what's not making money. And I had some, what I call, single family conversions, where, you know, we converted a basement to, uh, another unit. I had some single family conversions. Versions making more money than my apartments.

• 11:33Henry Washington?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  So at the end of the day for me, it is about the check. It is not about the amount of to say I have X amount of units. I think that that brings you the credibility as a successful investor. But at the end of the day, you have to realize what are you in this for? I'm in it for freedom of time, of options, of money and not for my ego.

• 11:59Henry Washington?

  And again, I don't want people to think that I'm I'm bashing on multifamily. I'm not. I think multifamily is amazing. All I'm saying is it's not the same as single family. You have to treat it different. And you're the one thing you said that I have to repeat is you said, you have to multiply your reserves.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:22Henry Washington?

  I think people forget about that part. Like you should have cash reserves for a single family home. And that those cash reserves should increase the more properties you own. A 20 unit building, you need some substantial cash reserves because you're right. And and I had this, I had a similar thing like that happens to me too. Like when weather changes from cold to hot, I don't just get one HVAC unit going out. I get five, six, seven of them all at one time, right? Because the season change, they all get hit hard. People just crank them things up.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:56Henry Washington?

  Right? So I just want people to understand like, make sure that you actually plan appropriately. It's not the same level of effort. Yes, there are some economies of scale. There are some things that aren't going to be that much more difficult man, with with the 28 versus a single family. But it's just a different ballgame and it requires a different kind of marketing. Erica, you've done a ton of different things. Obviously you've done small multifamily, you've done short term rentals, you've done co-living, you've done section eight. And I want to talk to you about some of the lessons that you've learned with those strategies. And then which of those strategies seems to be one that's still working in this current real estate market? But I want to dive into that right after the break.

• 13:38Dave Meyer?

  Summer bookings sound great until someone slips by the pool, gets hurt on your dock, or damages your property during a long holiday weekend. A lot of short-term rental investors don't realize their standard policy may leave gaps when it comes to short-term rental activity. That's why investors use Steadily. They offer landlord insurance built for real estate investors, including short-term rentals. And if you're a BiggerPockets Pro member, you'll also get 5% off your landlord insurance premiums. Visit biggerpockets.com/landlordinsurance to learn more.

• 14:10Henry Washington?

  Here's a strategy that most W2 employees have never heard of. Normally, if you want to write off a rental property against your regular income, you need real estate professional status. That means tracking hundreds of hours a year. Rent to Retirement just launched a program that skips all of that. It's called the STR loophole tenant placement program. Here's how it works. You buy one of Rent to Retirement's Class A new construction investment properties. You set up an Airbnb listing and self-manage it for the remainder of the year. Rent to Retirement then rents the home as a short-term rental to establish it as an STR for the year. No furnishing required, making this the easy button to save five or six figures in taxes this year.

• 14:52Henry Washington?

  And because you're the sole manager, there's no hourly minimum to meet. That lets you use a cost segregation study to accelerate the depreciation and potentially write off over $100,000 against your income, even on your first rental. Add in cash back up to 13% of the home price, which exceeds $60,000 on some properties. With this massive cash back incentive, investors are seeing total returns up to 126%. New construction, A-class properties, and inventory is limited. Learn more at biggerpockets.com/retirement or text REI to 33777. Again, text REI to 33777.

• 15:34Dave Meyer?

  I just booked a backpacking trip through Olympic National Park. Two nights out on the trail, no cell service, nothing to do but eat trail mix and stare at mountains I'll never get tired of. That's the whole appeal. But while I'm off grid, my place doesn't need to sit empty. I can list my space on Airbnb and make a little extra income while I'm away. And with Airbnb's co-host network, I could partner with a vetted local co-host to help take care of the details, from guest communications to onsite support, so I can fully unplug and enjoy my time out in the backcountry. If you've got upcoming travel plans, you can find a co-host at Airbnb.com/host.

• 16:16Speaker 03

  At Edward Jones, we believe rich is more than caring about the latest and greatest. It's also taking care of what gives your life meaning. That's why your dedicated financial advisor meets you where you are with personalized financial strategies that help protect what matters, so you can preserve your progress while creating a path forward. The key to being rich is knowing what counts. Let's find your rich together. Edward Jones. Member SIPC.

• 16:48Henry Washington?

  All right, we are back on the BiggerPockets Podcast. I am talking with my friend and fellow investor, Erica Brown. She is, you know, I don't even know if jack of all trades is the right, because that makes it seem like you're a master of none, but you have done well with many different strategies. So you've done short-term rentals.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 17:09Henry Washington?

  I would say that's changed in the past two to three years. You've done co-living, and you've done Section 8, and you've done small multifamily. Of all of those strategies, are you still doing all of them today? Or have you narrowed that down?

• 17:24Speaker 01

  I am still doing all of them today. So here's the thing. I've learned that when you first buy a property, it's important that you buy a property with multiple exit strategies.

• 17:35Henry Washington?

  Say it again.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  When you first buy, you have to have multiple exit strategies because you have no idea what's going to happen with the market. So I don't subscribe to buying a property because I want to put it on short-term rental and I'm only basing the numbers off of short-term rental. Right? I've been doing this for 10 years. I have some properties I probably have used three or four different rental strategies because that's what makes sense for the market, that makes sense for the team I had at the time, etc. When I first started, I was heavy, heavy short-term rentals. And I began diversifying our portfolio probably about five years ago, right before COVID, which was really interesting. So now I'm in a place where I have a very diversified portfolio

• 18:19Speaker 01

  because I believe that that is what's going to help to keep me going through this time. And also I've built out my team to where we can support that. So all properties aren't going to work for short-term rentals.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  The one, we have two short-term rentals right now and they work really well for that particular property. We pivoted to co-living. Co-living works too for some. We've had a couple of properties where, quite a few actually, that the insurance has skyrocketed, property taxes have increased. And so was, and then also because of local conditions, rents have went down. So what do we do? Because those particular properties work really well. They're in metropolitan areas. They're near, you know, public transportation. They've been doing very, very well on co-living. So right now we look at them from what's best for that particular property, what's best for that particular area and market condition that's going on.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  And also what do, what do we have the capacity to handle?

• 19:20Henry Washington?

  Yeah.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  So I just believe in diversification all across the board.

• 19:24Henry Washington?

  And it sounds like you still do all of the strategies, but maybe you've shifted the volume of one strategy to a volume of another strategy. I want to ask specifically about the co-living properties. So co-living. Does best in major metropolitan cities. Especially if that property is near some sort of public transportation because essentially this is workforce housing. So for those of you who don't understand what this is, this is where you're essentially renting by the room. So each tenant has a room in the house that they can lock. They've got their own stuff in it. And then the shared spaces are the kitchen, the bathrooms, and then the living room, if there is a living room. So what I wanted to ask about the co-living is these were obviously either short-term rentals or long-term rentals

• 20:08Henry Washington?

  before they were co-living properties. Did you modify them to add bedrooms to make it bring in more income as a co-living? Or are you just renting the rooms in the property as it sits?

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Great question. I'm really glad you asked that. So I believe in testing whether just it's just important business one-on-one. I believe in testing before just going all in to a strategy. So for the first property, what we did was we just rented out by the room with the existing rooms. Okay. We did not modify the living room. We added furniture, very basic, and we said, let's see how it goes. And so, and so we did that. We rented up the bedrooms pretty quickly within thirty days. And had a little bit of turnover, probably the first couple of weeks. And then after that, we had about sixty days worth of proof of concept that it works and that it's profitable.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  And we figured out the systems. So then when the next property came available, we did modify the living room and the dining room and added two additional bedrooms. And so I invest in a little bit of a conservative way. Because, you know, I, I want to make sure that I'm being careful, I'm being profitable, and I don't have a lot of backup plans. Like I don't, I'm expecting like a huge inheritance, so we gotta figure this out. And so I definitely suggest someone testing versus going all in and just trying something new.

• 21:35Henry Washington?

  And again, the reason that you were able to test a strategy is because you have other exit strategies for that property in the event that this new.

• 21:48Henry Washington?

  Strategy you're trying doesn't work, right? It allows you to be careful in your investing. So we're all just going back to never buy a property. If you can't get out of that deal in more than one way. Because the market shifts, especially if the strategy that you're using can be hindered by somebody else. Right? So like with with with short term rentals, midterm rentals and even rent by the room. Your ability for that strategy to work can be hindered by your city or local government. There are rules in certain cities with how many unrelated people can live in a house. You need to understand those in your city and see what the plans are for the future of that.

• 22:30Henry Washington?

  Before you go spending a ton of money converting living rooms to bedrooms. So again, benefits of having multiple exit strategies. All right. So section eight, I know section eight gets a bad rap, right? Cause I hear both sides. I hear that section eight can be a pain in the butt with the tenants, which I feel like is a myth. And I also hear that the local government can be a pain in the butt to work with in order to pass the inspections and get qualified. And then the third point I'd like you to touch on is we've had some government shutdowns recently. How has that affected your income in section eight?

• 23:04Speaker 01

  So at the end of the day, we have to realize that we're in the people business, right? So we we own real estate, but we're in the people business and we want to recognize that like our tenants are our customers or our clients.

• 23:17Henry Washington?

  I'm sorry. I keep telling you to repeat that, but you keep, these are things that I harp on. Like this business is one of the only customer service businesses that I feel like landlords don't operate as a customer service business. Like if you walk into a a store or you're buying a product or service from someone, you expect to be treated a certain way. You expect to be treated well. You're the customer. You're bringing the income for that store. And so you want to be treated as such, but for some reasons landlords don't treat their tenants that way. And why would you not? All right, I'm I'm getting off my.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. So this is the mindset that I start off with, like this is how. Feed my family, you know, and so I take it very seriously. Uh, and so from a section eight standpoint, I, again, because um, I've lived in these communities, the same communities that I had properties in, and so you get to like really learn people and humanize people. And so in the same way that I'm going to have expectations when I'm finding a, a regular tenant for a regular long-term rental, is the same way I'm going to have expectations whenever I'm, you know, looking for a section eight rental. So when I'm, I'm, my goal is to try to find the best tenant possible for that property.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  And what I've learned is that low-income people have the same desires that we have. And so because I, I focus on picking the right tenant, um, I haven't had as many issues. Um, I think sometimes people forget that with section eight, you could still deny a tenant. You still have the option to choose, you know, the tenant that you want. And so because I'm choosing good tenants and following the proper screening processes and things like that, I haven't had a bunch of issues. Um, a lot of times it's single moms just trying to do what's best for their kids. So I think having that mindset and recognizing that and humanizing the tenants has helped us to have a relationship, be able to work together. Also, yes, working with the city of Atlanta is not easy.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  In any municipality, okay? And so it's all about relationships, you know? Um, I've learned from Dr. Joe, which is at this point, one of my mentors. He is the section eight guru. And he's taught me it's about relationships. It's about, you know, really showing your value as a landlord. At the end of the day, the housing authority wants your business. They want my business. They want me to continue to choose them to provide housing, especially because I provide good, safe housing. And so recognizing the dynamics of the relationship, they need me, I need them, build that relationship, affirm them when they do do something well. There you go. Uh, brag on them to their bosses when they do something well.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Um, and that has helped me to be able to navigate the process, you know, effectively. Today, even when the government shutdowns happen, you know, I was, I was nervous at first, but because I surround myself with other investors that have been doing it for a really long time, I'm like, okay, so investors have never not been paid. Um, and so that helped me to have peace of mind, like, okay, this is, we'll get through it. But also because I have multiple exit strategies, if I need to pivot, I can. So in my city, for example, we have not had any issues. We have not, not been paid for section eight. They have just, um, removed rental increases for the foreseeable future. And so we're fine with that. We, we figured it out.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  So that's been my experience and it's been fine. It's really, let me tell you, the best part is that the first of the month, I get a direct deposit regardless. That is, that is beautiful.

• 26:56Henry Washington?

  Yeah, ain't gonna chase nobody, right?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  No chasing.

• 27:00Henry Washington?

  And thank you for sharing that. And thank you for dispelling some of those myths, man. When I hear someone say, yeah, section eight, uh, tenants are bad or that, uh, they won't rent to section eight because they think people are going to destroy their property. Uh, I think this is a landlord who's not good at their job, right? Cause our job is to get very good at tenant selection.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:25Henry Washington?

  Regardless of rent price.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 27:28Henry Washington?

  I've had bad tenants paying me $2,000 a month and I've had bad tenants paying me $600 a month.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:35Henry Washington?

  Okay.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:36Henry Washington?

  It wasn't the rent amount that dictated whether they were good or bad tenants. It was something that I missed during the tenant selection process.

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 27:47Henry Washington?

  So stop making excuses for you being bad at your job. Your job is to get good at tenant selection regardless of rent price.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:57Henry Washington?

  Period. Get good at your job. If you're good at your job, you will have less problems.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:03Henry Washington?

  Also, when I hear people say that they don't like section eight, what I also hear is probably people who have a lack of empathy. Okay, I've gotten to meet tons of real estate investors all over the country. People you see on the People you've probably never heard of because I've just met them at a conference here or there. And everybody I've met that is successful at renting to section eight tenants seems to have that gift of empathy, of understanding why someone may be in a difficult situation and finding that delicate balance of firm but fairness. And I think if you treat people like people, you're good at tenant selection and you can be fair but firm.

• 28:48Henry Washington?

  What a great way to build a rental portfolio of income that's paid by the government on the first of the month every month. Like it's, it's a great strategy in my opinion.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  And, and Henry, they take care of your property.

• 28:59Henry Washington?

  They, yes, because they don't want to move if it's a good property. They get a great rent. They're not paying much out of their pocket. Like they will treat it like home. Like home, if you can pick the right tenant.

• 29:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 29:12Henry Washington?

  Absolutely. All right, Erica, this has been amazing. I really, really appreciate you sharing some of these lessons learned. I've got a couple of more questions for you because I want to hear about your experience as a licensed agent and being a real estate investor and your opinions on whether you think others should follow that same path. As well as something you and I talked about recently, which is being okay, not having to have the biggest, largest, craziest portfolio and just finding the properties that, that we love and appreciate the most and focusing on paying those off. So I want to dive into those topics, but we're going to take a break first.

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• 34:14Henry Washington?

  All right, I'm back on the BiggerPockets Podcast with my guest, Erica Brown, who is a seasoned real estate investor out of Atlanta, Georgia, who has seemingly done it all. So investors often struggle with the idea or concept of, should I get my real estate license to become a real estate investor? Or should I just start investing in real estate and figure out if I need a license down the road? You have your license, you've got a brokerage. I'd love to hear your perspective on should someone become a licensed professional prior to investing in real estate? And has having your license helped you as a real estate investor?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Do I feel like you need to have your real estate license in order to invest? And or should you have your real estate license in order to invest? Absolutely not.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. You it is not required. You do not need it. You will you if you if you have the expectation that you will be learning how to invest in real estate by being a real estate agent, you will not. Okay. Ninety percent of real estate agents have no idea about that. They don't know anything about investing. So definitely not a requirement at all. I I I tell my clients this all the time because I have some clients who I'm working with who they I actually encourage them to get their real estate license. So my thing is this, if you want to help people buy and sell houses, you should get your real estate license. It's very simple. Okay.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  But to to your second question on has being a real estate agent helped me with investing? It has. Having my real estate license helped me to help other people buy and sell real estate. It also helped me to not have an cap on my income so that I can make more money to then invest in real estate. So definitely suggest that. And along the way, yes, have I had opportunities that where someone came to me to want me to sell their house? And I ended up buying the property? Yes, that has happened multiple times and I feel like that has helped grow my portfolio. But ultimately, I say this, if you just want to get your real estate license to have it,

• 36:28Speaker 01

  but you really don't want to work with people to buy and sell, I think that you are wasting your energy and time. Instead of you getting your real estate license just to have it, you should use that time to find more deals.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Do that instead.

• 36:45Henry Washington?

  I think there is value in having your license as a real estate investor. I just think you need to do a deal or two first and learn more about who you are and who you're going to be as an investor. And then you'll have a better understanding of how you might. Want to leverage a license in your real estate business. Maybe it's that you don't need or want your license, but somebody on your team having their license could be valuable to you. So that way you have another way to monetize leads through referrals. We learn a lot about ourselves as investors after we do a deal or two.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:23Henry Washington?

  I think we all come into this business and we think things are going to go one way. And sometimes they don't go that way. Sometimes they do go that way, but you learn something and then you start to build a repeatable business. And so like I have learned that like having my license, based on the way I do real estate would hinder me more than help me. So I don't have my license, but someone on my team having a license

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:50Henry Washington?

  would be valuable to me. But it took me having to do a few deals to understand that.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 37:56Henry Washington?

  All right. And as we are starting to wind down here, you and I, we, we shared some, some Instagram voice notes back and forth. You made a post recently and I sent you a voice note like, amen. This is exactly how I feel. And it sounds to me like you're focusing more on shrinking your portfolio down to the assets, maybe that are the best assets or the ones you enjoy managing or having in your portfolio the most and focusing on paying those off. Can you talk a little bit about that?

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Here's the thing. Okay. We are as a real estate investors, like 1% of the population is, most people just want to go to work, come home, eat dinner, see their family, and that's it. Being a real estate investor, you know, pursuing early retirement, it comes at a cost. Okay. And so you have to determine what you're willing to sacrifice. All right. And, and determine that. And then allow that to then decide your strategy. Don't get caught up in what everybody else is doing. Allow that to decide your strategy. So for me, we're on a four year countdown.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  In four years, I will be a total, my husband and I, we will be empty nesters. So for us, we want to accelerate and pay off as much debt and mortgages as possible within the next four years so that we could just literally do whatever we want to do, you know, after that. And so I'm, we're focusing on optimizing our portfolio, keeping the best properties that make the most money, selling the others, and then helping our sons. We're, we're actually under contract for a quadriplex for our sons. So help them start their portfolios. That's what we're focused on right now. And I'm not, I'm not keeping up with anybody else. If, if someone else wants to buy a boutique hotel, that's amazing for you. I'm so excited for you.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  But that doesn't mean that I have to do that today. Does that make sense?

• 39:54Henry Washington?

  Absolutely, it makes sense. This is a lesson that I learned about, I, I started to truly learn it about a year and a half ago. Cause I was, you know, I've got all the friends that, that you know, that, you know, who are doing all these amazing things and building these amazing businesses. And I was drinking the Kool-Aid, you know, work on your business, not in your business. And so I did, I hired all these people and what I realized was I missed operating in my business. I missed managing renovations. I missed going on seller appointments and talking to sellers. And it, I had to really take a long look in the mirror and say, okay,

• 40:35Henry Washington?

  why don't I just get back to doing the things that I enjoy doing? Like it's okay if I'm the operator in my business. Just because everybody else is building all these businesses, flipping hundreds of houses and they don't ever see any of them, doesn't mean I have to do that. I can build the business that provides the lifestyle that I want. I can have the portfolio that provides just enough income for me to live the life that I want. And I don't have to go chasing bigger just because I can do it. And so we made some changes. Since then, I've been shrinking my portfolio, selling off the assets that aren't producing as much and focusing on paying off the ones that, that we do like

• 41:17Henry Washington?

  and what we do enjoy. And I manage my renovations again. I go to the properties and I make the design decisions and I talk to my contractors and. I got talked to sellers and make offers. Now I have somebody that helps me with that.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:32Henry Washington?

  But I still get to do some of it. Is that for everybody? No, it doesn't have to be.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:36Henry Washington?

  But what I like, what you said is like, design your business for the lifestyle that you want. Like for me, I don't want to be an operator forever. I have a plan for getting out of that.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:46Henry Washington?

  But for right now, I want to be in it. And so I'm going to be in it and I'm going to enjoy it. And that's okay.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 41:53Henry Washington?

  Thank you so much for coming and sharing so much knowledge and wisdom. 10 years in the real estate investing business.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:01Henry Washington?

  And you're still, you're still going and.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  I love it, love it, love it.

• 42:05Henry Washington?

  I love it too.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  It's been burning.

• 42:06Henry Washington?

  Grateful to call you friend. I'm, I'm proud of you.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Same.

• 42:11Henry Washington?

  Proud of what you're doing with your children and how you're building out a business that not only provides income for you, but supports your community, takes care of your community and takes care of your family. You should be very, very proud, Erica.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Thanks, friend. I appreciate that.

• 42:27Henry Washington?

  All right, Erica, one last thing before we take off. If people want to know more about you, get in contact with you, where can they do that?

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Follow me on Instagram, Erica Brown Investor. Also have a podcast called Wealth Within Reach, so you can find me on YouTube. And yeah, we'll connect from there.

• 42:45Henry Washington?

  Awesome.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me. I appreciate it so much.

• 42:47Henry Washington?

  Thank you so much. All right, everybody, if you enjoyed this episode, make sure you're subscribed to the all new BiggerPockets Investor Brief Newsletter. Three times a week, the Investor Brief breaks down market news, real deals and investor stories you won't find anywhere else. You can sign up today at biggerpockets.com/email-dash-subscribe. That's biggerpockets.com/email-dash-subscribe. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the BiggerPockets Podcast and we'll catch you on the next episode.

• 43:50Speaker 04

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