EP.257 - BENEDICT CUMBERBATCH

Adam talks with English actor Benedict Cumberbatch about his new film The Roses, as well as appearing on SNL, the challenge of balancing a successful career with married life and young children, whether couples therapy works, why actors lose their shit on film sets and whether Adam should retire the Christian Bale on set meltdown jingle. Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 12 June 2025 Thanks to Séamus Murphy-Mitchell for additional editing Podcast illustration by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/ Pre-order Adam's album BUCKLE UP https://shop.decca.com/products/buckle-up-vinyl-signedwith limited signed artwork Order Adam's book 'I Love You Byeee' https://lnk.to/iloveyoubyeee_ EXCLUSIVE NORD VPN DEAL https://nordvpn.com/buxton Try it risk-free now with a 30-day money-back guarantee! TALK 90s TO ME https://podfollow.com/talk-90s-to-me/view (Miranda Sawyer podcast on Podfollow) UNCOMMON PEOPLE https://www.waterstones.com/book/uncommon-people/miranda-sawyer/9781399816915 by Miranda Sawyer - 2025 (WATERSTONES) WHAT HAPPENED TO COUNTER-CULTURE? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002gqy5 Presented by Stewart Lee - 2025 (BBC SOUNDS) Comedian Stewart Lee presents a five-part series exploring the evolution and key ideas that have driven counter-culture from its beginnings with the Beats, folk and jazz in the 1950s, to its heights in the 1960s and 70s including the hippies and the early tech-communalists, the new liberation movements and punk, to the 1980s and early 90s, where political power on both sides of the Atlantic pushed back against the values of the ‘permissive society’. MORE LINKS (ON ADAM'S WEBSITE) https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/podcasts/82dyw29p3may2fa-dwb79-eycgn-fahgj-8yxba-c6hde-7lne6-5kthd-7a97e-9s3a8 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Adam Buxton?

  I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buckston, I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan.

• 0:31Adam Buxton?

  Hey, how are you doing, podcats? It's Adam Buckston here, reporting to you from a crunchy Norfolk farm track at the end of the first week of September 2025. It's a beautiful, balmy afternoon out here in East Angular, and I'm walking with my best dog friend, Rose. Say hello, Rosie.

• 0:57Adam Buxton?

  Just saying hello with breath this week. She's in quite a good mood today. Didn't seem overly resistant to the idea of a walk, and why would she? It's a lovely afternoon. I'm glad to say that in the last few weeks, the quivering in the flanks that used to set in at the mere mention of a walk has subsided, and Rosie just seems altogether a bit more chill, which is nice. So that's Rosie news. She's doing well, aren't you, doglegs? Please don't patronise me. I apologise. Ooh, this nice, warm breeze I'm getting here. I'm wearing shorts! Now, look, before I tell you a bit about my guest for this week's conversational ramble,

• 1:42Adam Buxton?

  I would like to give a shout-out for a future guest. I'm going to be talking to Eric Idle of Monty Python, who, apart from everything he's achieved in TV and film and the theatre, is, of course, one of the all-time great writers of funny songs that you actually want to listen to more than once. There's the Galaxy Song, the Philosopher's Song, the Penis Song, and of course, Always Look on the Bright Side of Life, which gives its name to Eric's forthcoming live tour of the UK, kicking off in Birmingham on the 10th of September, and then heading to Brighton, Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Bournemouth, ending up in London on the 27th of September.

• 2:25Adam Buxton?

  Twenty twenty five, you can expect, according to the poster, an evening of comedy, music, philosophy, and one fart joke. Eric was on great form when I spoke to him a couple of months ago, so grab a ticket now at ericidle.com or via bookingsdirect.com. Okay, now let me tell you a bit about podcast number two hundred and fifty seven, which features a rambling conversation with English actor Benedict Timothy Carlton Cumberbatch. Here's a very cursory selection of Cumberfacts for you. Born in nineteen seventy six, that's the year the Queen pulled down her knicks, as we all know. I won't tell you what she did next, but it was pretty shocking.

• 3:10Adam Buxton?

  Benedict is the son of successful theatre and TV actors Wanda Ventham and Timothy Carlton. He was sent to boarding school at a young age, like me, although we didn't talk about that, for a change. After studying drama in Manchester and getting his MA in classical acting at Lambda, the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art, Benedict spent the latter half of the two thousands, becoming increasingly celebrated for his theatre work. But the role that brought him into the wider public consciousness and kept him occupied for much of the twenty teens was as the brilliant but abrasive detective Sherlock Holmes in the BBC series Sherlock, created by Stephen Moffat and Mark Gatiss.

• 3:53Adam Buxton?

  The huge success of that portrayal, no doubt, contributed to his award of a CBE in twenty fifteen for services to the performing arts and to charity, but by then he had also appeared in films including Starter for Ten, Atonement, the twenty eleven adaptation of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, and Steven Spielberg's War Horse. His first Oscar nomination was for playing computer scientist and cryptologist Alan Turing in twenty fourteen's The Imitation Game. And he was nominated again in two thousand and twenty one for his portrayal of a charismatic but cruel rancher in nineteen twenties Montana, in Jane Campion's adaptation of Thomas Savage's

• 4:34Adam Buxton?

  nineteen sixty seven novel, The Power of the Dog. And of course, you know Benedict as Doctor Stephen Strange in one of my favourite Marvel movies, Doctor Strange. More recently Benedict appeared in the film adaptation of Max Porter's novella, Grief is the Thing with Feathers, which blends fantasy and horror elements in a story about a father losing his wife. The film is the dramatic debut of British director Dylan Southern, who has previously directed excellent music docs about Blur LCD Sound System and the New York City music scene of the early two thousands. That was called Meet Me in the Bathroom. Really enjoyed that. The Thing with Feathers, though, is due for release in the UK at the end of October

• 5:19Adam Buxton?

  this year. My conversation with Benedict took place a few weeks ago in late June, in a big room in a fancy hotel down the road from Trafalgar Square in central London, where Benedict was doing several days of interviews to promote The Roses, just released as I speak in UK cinemas. A twisted comedy drama in which a married couple's relationship implodes crazily, following the sudden realignment of their parental and professional roles. The film is directed by Jay Roach, the helmsman of Meet the Parents and Austin Powers, and the screenplay is by Tony McNamara. He wrote The Favourite and Poor Things, directed by

• 6:03Adam Buxton?

  Yorgos Lanthimos. The Roses is based on the nineteen eighty one book The War of the Roses by American author Warren Adler. That was previously adapted in nineteen eighty nine by Danny DeVito, who cast Kathleen Turner and Michael Douglas in the central roles. In this reimagining Benedict stars as architect Theo Rose alongside Olivia Colman. She plays Theo's wife Ivy Rose, who, at the midpoint in her life, suddenly finds professional success as a chef. Theo and Ivy's friends, couples who are dysfunctional in their own ways, are played by SNL stars Kate McKinnon and Andy Samberg, as well as the excellent

• 6:45Adam Buxton?

  Zoe Chow, and one of my comedy heroes, Jamie Demetriou. Elsewhere, the cast includes Alison Janney, Sunita Mani and Dr. Who star Nkuti Guttwa. Before meeting Benedict, I had received an email from the film company that, as is often the case with promotional interviews, made it clear that questions should pertain to the film and should not be of a personal nature or in reference to gossip, politics or other projects. Nevertheless, Benedict gave me a bit of latitude and also, as well as the roses, we talked about his appearances on Saturday Night Live, the challenge of balancing a successful career

• 7:27Adam Buxton?

  with married life and young children, whether couples' therapy works, why actors lose their shit on film sets, and whether I should retire my Christian Bale on-set meltdown jingle. But we began by talking about Benedict's 2021 appearance on Marc Maron's podcast WTF, on which they had discussed The Power of the Dog, which at the time had just been released. And things at one point got a little bit tense, only a tiny bit though, because of comments that Benedict's co-star Jesse Plemons had made about the character that Benedict played. Well, we actors get very protective of our characters, don't we, Doglegs?

• 8:10Speaker 01

  I wouldn't know.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Yes, you would, because I love you. I love you, Doglegs.

• 8:16Adam Buxton?

  Anyway, I'll be back at the end with a couple of recommendations for you, but right now with Benedict Cumberbatch. Here we go.

• 9:05Adam Buxton?

  How was Marin going on there while we're on the subject?

• 9:08Speaker 03

  He was extraordinary. I didn't know quite what a thing it was, right? I mean, I knew him and I hadn't listened much to the podcast at the time and, you know, I knew him from his various great performances in various films. Anyway, I ended up being quite combative and I think we had a bit of a, a little bit.

• 9:21Adam Buxton?

  You were talking about The Year of the Dog.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  We were talking about some, no, that's a Chinese thing. We were talking about the power of the dog.

• 9:26Adam Buxton?

  The power of the dog. It was one, one of the dog based. It was one of the big dog films.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Yes. How to train your dog. I, I think it was something either Jesse had said about his character, knowing something about my character. I think that was it actually. And it scarred deep. I can remember it that quickly. And I was immediate, no, no, no, he can't say that. And I just sort of turned it into a thing. And I was like, why don't I just waste a bit of man classy, classic time, just kind of arguing a point that the other actor wasn't there.

• 9:56Adam Buxton?

  It was good chat. You weren't genuinely riled though, were you? Or were you?

• 9:59Speaker 03

  No, no, no. I think I just, I got a little bit on my high horse. I, I do that sometimes with characters that I feel very affiliated with or processes or whatever. And it's sort of like, no, Ben, you were in your own world doing that. So someone else has also a world. Classic thing we do in life as well. It's just thinking, but it's all about my story rather than understanding that has to be bridge building and other people's stories as well. So.

• 10:21Speaker 03

  I think it was just a very immersive thing for me and I was quite protective of where I thought things were at. But guess what? Another act had a different idea and it works. It all works on screen. So.

• 10:30Adam Buxton?

  It's nice. It's nice to have a spicy, non-sanitized.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:34Adam Buxton?

  Conversation. I think there are too few of those.

• 10:37Speaker 03

  I agree, agree, agree, agree. It's not just sort of slapping platitudes. It was, it was, there was some conversation. There was some argument or dialogue at least.

• 10:45Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  But I do remember him being really witty and really funny and dry and thinking, I've got to, I've got to listen to more of these things I've just done. Sort of badly out of time, but.

• 10:55Adam Buxton?

  He's good. He's great. How was SNL?

• 10:58Speaker 03

  Second time round.

• 10:59Adam Buxton?

  Second.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  Really enjoyable. First time round, mastermind plus a coffee enema and just, you know, naked in Times Square. It's just, you're, you're also exhausted because you do the pre-records until something like, I think I wrapped at like three in the morning. And then you're like, you're ready to go at a sort of, you know, showtime, like a seven or eight o'clock kind of showtime. They go, no, we don't, we'll start this shit until eleven thirty at night. And it's really, really, really exhausting. So you kind of go in going, I should be in bed, you know, and then you have this absurd amount of adrenaline as well. It's a really horrible state to be in first time round. Second time around, you just breathe a bit more. You get a little, I climatized myself to doing things later in the day, you know, and

• 11:40Speaker 03

  and they knew me, that some of the ones that were there last time I did it were there this time and wrote a little bit more around me and.

• 11:47Adam Buxton?

  Do you have techniques for, because I can imagine that even you as someone who presumably has overcome many of your performance nerves and has all sorts of techniques for doing so. Suddenly you find yourself in an unfamiliar environment.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  Where's this going?

• 12:03Adam Buxton?

  Like SNL. No, I'm just wondering how, like, what actual tech, do you have actual techniques in those situations or are you just always styling it?

• 12:10Speaker 03

  I think, I think the first time around, you have to just, you have to learn experientially, is that the word? But you just have to do it. And it's always exciting when you have a new challenge in our world and it's rare. And so I kind of embrace that. I'm kind of like, I like being a bit scared. Sometimes I think I like it too much than I actually do. And then I get to actually doing it and why am I putting myself and my body through this? Cause it is, it's a lot. It taxes you. Definitely a few grey or missing hairs. And then you kind of go, okay, I've kind of got this. And then it becomes fun. But yeah, no, I like the challenge. I love the challenge of it. And it's, it's such an institution over there. And I, I've only ever seen

• 12:50Speaker 03

  bits of it, you know, it's not something that we have broadcast live yet for obvious reasons, but you, you catch, I think some Comedy Central now, I think. Um, or you get a little bits of, of, well, most of the shows now are on YouTube. But it's not inherently part of our culture like it is over there. It's a really big deal. And it felt like a huge honour to be asked. And I'm often flattered into doing things that are deeply uncomfortable because people tell me it's a huge honour and I get why sometimes, sometimes not. But I'd like to give it a go and I've always been a bit like that. And it's not fearlessness, it's sort of foolhardiness and wanting to be put in a place where I have to think outside of the usual pattern, which is probably why I go a bit crazy at the end of a press junket because it's just, it's very, very sort of Groundhog Day-ish.

• 13:33Adam Buxton?

  Was that the first time, speaking of SNL, that you had met Kate McKinnon?

• 13:37Speaker 03

  That was the first time, yeah.

• 13:38Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  And she was apparently a big fan of Sherlock. And I still find it difficult being around her. I'm so in awe of what she does.

• 13:45Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, she's very funny.

• 13:46Speaker 03

  So off the wall and but you can have an ordinary conversation, not to dispel any

• 13:52Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 13:52Speaker 03

  showbiz myths, but she's wonderful. She's wonderful. I still though get a bit nervous around her.

• 13:56Adam Buxton?

  We're gonna jump into the middle of the roses by discussing a moment with Kate McKinnon and then we'll pull focus and talk about the wider implications of the roses and what it's all about. But there is a moment in that film.

• 14:10Speaker 03

  Listeners don't know how you just described all of that with your hands.

• 14:13Adam Buxton?

  And gesticulating.

• 14:14Speaker 03

  You would have landed at an aeroplane with those.

• 14:16Adam Buxton?

  I'm the Trump of podcasting with my hands.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  No, that would be just like this.

• 14:21Adam Buxton?

  Just little gestures.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Tiny gestures.

• 14:24Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, how is your Trump impression?

• 14:25Speaker 03

  I think like everybody, it's okay, but it's not good. It's sad. It's sad. Is it? I don't know. It's pathetic. It's pathetic.

• 14:35Adam Buxton?

  It's very bad.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  Benedict Coober?

• 14:37Adam Buxton?

  Very, very bad.

• 14:38Speaker 03

  Very, very bad.

• 14:39Adam Buxton?

  He's sad, this guy, British guy, very disappointing.

• 14:42Speaker 03

  He's so everywhere that everyone, even people who don't do impersonations have got something. It's just, he's everywhere, isn't it?

• 14:48Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, it's terrible. How about Eddie Redmayne? Can you do a good Redmayne?

• 14:52Speaker 03

  I could try. I don't know. Eddie, I don't, I feel bad about this because he's a friend of mine.

• 14:56Adam Buxton?

  Sure.

• 14:57Speaker 03

  Have you seen him? He goes like, he goes like this every now and again. Have you seen him in Jupiter Rising? No.

• 15:04Adam Buxton?

  Oh, that is a film and a half. I mean, I'm being sincere. That is a fun film to watch.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  Is that Wachowski's?

• 15:10Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah. It's completely unhinged.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:13Adam Buxton?

  And his performance in it

• 15:15Speaker 03

  Is unhinged.

• 15:15Adam Buxton?

  is quite a thing.

• 15:16Speaker 03

  He's fucking amazing. Have you seen The Good Nurse?

• 15:18Adam Buxton?

  No.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  It's a phenomenal performance and he is just. Um, you know, he's a friend. We got set up as rivals during a year that we were both nominated for Oscars, which we thought was hilarious because we're friends and because we both love each other's work and know each other and our wives. It's just nuts. It's silly.

• 15:37Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  And also, all that stuff is silly. And clearly, he was extraordinary. So how can I begrudge him? A friend who is exceptional. Give it to him.

• 15:46Adam Buxton?

  Sure. Well, uh, go and watch Jupiter Rising and then come back to me.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  Okay. It's very good. It's an incredible performance from an extraordinary actor. I mean, he literally delivers his lines like this and he's completely mad.

• 16:00Adam Buxton?

  So what was I saying before my, oh, yes, Kate McKinnon.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:03Adam Buxton?

  In the film, there is a scene in which her character is sort of lusting after yours. There's a motif. Well, there's several scenes. Yeah, that she's, she's a friend of, of you and Olivia Colman's character. And she is lusting after you. And at one point she hangs on to you and sort of froths for quite a while, like really frothing away.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:27Adam Buxton?

  And we're seeing it from every angle and she's sort of quivering with orgasmic joy. And I was thinking, what was that like? Did you have to have an intimacy coordinator?

• 16:38Speaker 03

  Oh, we fucking should have done, though. My leg will never recover. Um, no, it was, it was extraordinary. I mean, the hardest thing with her is just not to laugh. And, you know, she was always apologizing or usually afterwards, but she was also, I was aware that it was supposed to be a scene where she hugs for an inappropriately long time.

• 16:55Adam Buxton?

  Hmm.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  That's sort of the button of the, of the moment.

• 16:58Adam Buxton?

  As it were.

• 16:59Speaker 03

  As it were. And then she did this sort of slow fraught. That's the other thing about it. It's very slow, a slow grind with a quiver, uh, an increasing quiver at the end. I mean, it was.

• 17:10Adam Buxton?

  It was sort of sexy.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  It was very sexual. But when we got to the dinner scene, it's a later moment than when we're talking about. Uh, it's this extraordinary dinner table scene where the couple are really starting to throw some pretty awful, nasty, barbed, hurtful comments at each other. And the guests are trying to understand whether it's real or just ironic or funny.

• 17:28Adam Buxton?

  The guests are all American.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  They're all American and they tried to have a go at it and it's really awful. It's just horrible.

• 17:33Adam Buxton?

  It's a really funny scene.

• 17:34Speaker 03

  Very funny scene. But underneath it, there's this kind of core of us really destroying each other. At one point, Kate McKinnon's character, um, tries to empathize with Ivy, Olivia's character and goes, I, I know just what you're feeling, babe, about her two children going to college too early, in her opinion. And she gives these examples, and there's only one obviously in the film, but it was just unbearable, partly because this great, great talent of comedy of our age, she'd start on a line of a new idea and then she'd stop and start laughing at what was coming towards her. And that was it. We're like, well, we're not gonna last. If you, because she's very, she doesn't crack when she's in one, she's just, she just does it. But, my god, uh, it

• 18:17Speaker 03

  was, it was, it was a very fun day at work being right in the kind of.

• 18:20Adam Buxton?

  They're trying to do sort of Jesse Armstrong succession style British put down.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Very good analogy.

• 18:28Adam Buxton?

  Well, Anthony McNamara as well, he's very good at it as well, but.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  That's that Zoe, Zoe Chann and Jamie Dimitri, they're the couple who are trying it out, you know, the other architect.

• 18:36Adam Buxton?

  And Jamie can't, Jamie Dimitri's character can't really do it and is very hurt by the things that are thrown at him. And she's like, what did she say? She said a thing, said a mad.

• 18:46Speaker 03

  She says, cry like a bitch like you did when her dog died asshole. And she keeps going. And he's just like, it sort of traumatizes everyone. And Andy Samberg's going, what the fuck? And it's, and I'm looking at my wife going, this is the atmosphere that you helped create, darling. Thanks so much. It's a horrible but very, very funny scene.

• 19:04Adam Buxton?

  So can you, I will set it up in the introduction, but can you tell me briefly what it's about?

• 19:10Speaker 03

  The film is about a couple who fall in love in a sort of very fast way. They're both disheartened with England. They've reached sort of stalemates in their careers. They're childless. They're of an age. They think, well, let's just go to America. And they kind of do. And you cut to 10 years later, they've got the two kids in the house and his work's going well and she's still being brilliant at what she does as a chef, but only at home. He gets a prize, uh, the prize money he gives to her to start a restaurant so that she can wow the world instead of three, uh, two kids, well, three, including her husband, at home with these amazing kind of dessert creations and food of iconic status. And.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  His career is going great guns. I think he got an award for his opening and there's a disaster with the building that basically has him cancelled as an architect. And he has to reorientate his life and does so around his children and family and devotes himself to staying at home whilst her career just ascends. And it's really the story of a couple who love each other very much but just start growing apart. And the resentment that creeps in and the lack of communication or seeing each other or paying attention to one another slowly starts to corrode their love at certain points. And then they come back together with humour and love and understanding and then it really gets pretty diabolical towards the end.

• 20:25Adam Buxton?

  And this is-

• 20:25Speaker 03

  It's based on the War of the Roses.

• 20:27Adam Buxton?

  Right, it's a so-called reimagining. So it doesn't stick exactly to all the beats of that Danny DeVito film.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  No, not at all.

• 20:34Adam Buxton?

  And you've seen the DeVito film?

• 20:36Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. And it was sort of iconic. Everything they did in that era, I was enthralled by.

• 20:42Adam Buxton?

  1989, I think it was.

• 20:43Speaker 03

  1989, indeed. And was it after Romancing the Stone and Jewel and None? I think it was.

• 20:47Adam Buxton?

  Maybe.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  But those two just had me.

• 20:49Adam Buxton?

  Kathleen Turner and Michael Douglas.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  What a couple, you know.

• 20:52Adam Buxton?

  I remember seeing it at the time, so I would have been nineteen or twenty.

• 20:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was a bit younger.

• 20:58Adam Buxton?

  What did you make of it? Because I remember thinking, I don't know if I like this. It was too much.

• 21:03Speaker 03

  Well, I don't think I was at a sensitive enough age. I just thought, whoa, he's just crushed his car! Not with an American accent.

• 21:10Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Whoa, he's peeing in the soup. It just seemed extraordinary. And I remembered it being funny because I watched it before we made it. I was like, fucking hell, this is incredibly bleak.

• 21:22Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 21:22Speaker 03

  And that final touch, admittedly brave filmmaking, I suppose, a bold choice where he reaches across for one moment of reconciliation as they're dying.

• 21:30Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  And she brushes his hand away. I don't find that funny. I find that really bleak.

• 21:35Adam Buxton?

  Yes.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  But some people find it funny. It's a bold choice.

• 21:40Adam Buxton?

  Right. I mean, it was definitely a kind of, um- Second wave feminist fantasy in some ways. It was like a woman.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Here we go.

• 21:47Adam Buxton?

  Being able to literally and metaphorically punch back at the kind of man who sort of feels superficially like I'm a great guy and I'm a nice person to be married to, but actually.

• 21:58Speaker 03

  Was being a bit of an asshole.

• 22:00Adam Buxton?

  Total asshole, like the Michael Douglas character in that one.

• 22:02Speaker 03

  The tipping point I really spotted second time round now as a married man was when he was disparaging about her in front of his. I'm not saying this because I'm disparaging about my wife. I hope never like this either, but it's just, it was, it's awful. It's like a, if I did that, you know, if anyone did that, I'd fucking hate them for it. It is. It is horrible. He just, he gets embarrassed about her at the dinner party with his colleagues that he's trying to show off to and impress.

• 22:25Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 03

  She's cooked it all for them and, you know, she says something and it's just, that is when the cold drop of ice enters her heart and it's horrible. And I don't think they ever really fall back in love at any other point, whereas with us, I think we love each other till whatever end is the end.

• 22:41Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, uh, it is really bleak and he, like, he's just a total irredeemable twat.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  I think he becomes that, yeah.

• 22:48Adam Buxton?

  And she has twatish elements to her and she, one of the themes in the film is this kind of fascination with status and materialism that they both have.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:57Adam Buxton?

  Which is also there to a degree in, in your version.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  It is, I think so, but somebody brought this up as like, you know, so much has changed. I mean, you know, we're so kind of screwed by ambition now. Wait a minute, you're talking about a film starring Michael Douglas who just played Gordon Gekko in, you know, Wall Street saying greed is good. I think materialism was very much born in the eighties and the.

• 23:14Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:14Speaker 03

  In the way that we, you know, know it now. It's masked in different ways now. It's a little bit more nefarious. You can have it all. Well, you can, but there are costs to having it all. Therefore you can't have it all. It's true. You can't have it all. Of course you can have a good, always you can have a, but you have to balance these things. You can't just go all for one and think you can have the other two for free, you know?

• 23:34Adam Buxton?

  Yes.

• 23:35Speaker 03

  Do you know what I mean?

• 23:36Adam Buxton?

  I, I do know what you mean. And that seems to me like a, a massive segue to me asking you how you do it. As, well, exactly, as someone who is so busy and who works constantly and you have children?

• 23:49Speaker 03

  Three.

• 23:49Adam Buxton?

  Three?

• 23:49Speaker 03

  Boys, yeah.

• 23:50Adam Buxton?

  Uh, how, what sort of ages are they?

• 23:52Speaker 03

  Six, eight and 10.

• 23:53Adam Buxton?

  Oh, man. So you're, I mean, that is a busy time and that is a time when you really do want to be around them.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  And I am a lot.

• 24:00Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:01Speaker 03

  I do a lot less now and when I do it, it's nearly always here. We have a two week rule for when it's not here, but more than likely now we're not a travelling circus like we were when they were very young. I come home. And I'm doing less. And so that's it. That's that. That's what this part is. And

• 24:18Adam Buxton?

  I'm I'm not trying to make you defensive.

• 24:20Speaker 03

  Am I being defensive?

• 24:21Adam Buxton?

  No, I'm joking.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  Oh, God, don't. Well, no, because I think it is constantly something. It's a checks and balance Yeah, yeah. All the time. I'm loving it. And I I will constantly feel like I'm doing too much work, or I'm too long at home, or it it just it it you just have to try and keep feeling out what's right and best for them and for you.

• 24:41Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  Because I think work is part of who you are.

• 24:43Adam Buxton?

  Sure.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  That's a really important thing for children to realize as well, and to understand that you love what you do, which I'm very lucky to do. I I realize that's also rare air to breathe. And I want them to see that. I want them to see someone who loves what they do and understand why I love what I do. But at the same time, I want them to see me. I don't want them just me go, well, I'm going to work because I love it.

• 25:01Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  How would that feel as a job? So and I do spend any time with them. It's, you know, it's hard. It is harder, definitely harder than work.

• 25:09Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  But it's the most rewarding thing.

• 25:11Adam Buxton?

  Are you? What kind of parent are you? Are you um?

• 25:14Speaker 03

  A class top.

• 25:16Adam Buxton?

  Absolutely smashing it.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  No, of course, I'm, you know, I'm fathoming it out as I go and challenged by it all all the time. And there's no kind of.

• 25:25Speaker 03

  I think I like the idea of a whole child, like understanding them and understanding the separation of behavior from the person, understanding that a lot of what they are throwing out at any age is to do with stuff that they don't understand or that they're struggling with that's not actually to do with the, you know, fuck you, I hate you, I hate you, I hated you since I was born stuff.

• 25:46Adam Buxton?

  Is that what you say to your children?

• 25:51Adam Buxton?

  When they miss Babe?

• 25:52Speaker 03

  I'll use that now, I will use that.

• 25:54Adam Buxton?

  Um, so I mean, the obvious thing would be to ask you about how you achieve that in your own life. You're an incredibly busy person, and you want to maintain the cathedral of Cumberbatch, and the world wants you to do so. But how is it possible to take your foot off the gas and just say, actually, I'm going to say no to a lot of things? Presumably, there's like a structure around you of people who really don't want you to say no to things as well.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, and and when they have your best interests at heart, sometimes you just have to keep reminding them of the same thing. The school holidays, the sacred dates, the anniversaries, the birthdays, all those things that are not workable. And it's understandable, it's understandable. And it's not they don't have them, it's like, right, but we we do have to show you that. So and so is cool to would like to work with you on that, you know.

• 26:48Speaker 03

  But I, you know. It's a very empowering thing saying no, and it's also an empowering thing remembering that a career is a lifetime, whereas their childhood is actually the blink of an eye compared to that. So. You know, there's certain stuff that plays in my mind is going, well, I'm going to be out of a playing range if I say no to everything until their house leavers. Hopefully, if that happens in the twenties, these days, you know, but it is the paramount thing that every choice is focused on really. I mean, obviously, the work itself has to be good enough to sacrifice any time away from home. Uh, or let's not say sacrifice, but like work it with home. And that's what's on the page and who's directing and who else is acting and whether they're nice. Cause I'm not that age now, I kind of want to work with people who are actually.

• 27:32Adam Buxton?

  Of course, yes.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  I think good work comes of that as well, because it's more trusting, you just, you can really throw it out there and not feel like if you do fail. It'll be a problem, you can just keep having fun with it. And yeah, going back to your question, it is. It's the central thing that shapes my choices and it kind of maintains, I don't really go to algorithms. I've also got a few things, as in, you know, if, oh, God, he didn't do that, well, he slid down the list of people. Now we're going to the people who are like him.

• 28:00Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, like, if you're good, then you're sorted.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  One would hope, one would hope.

• 28:05Adam Buxton?

  So you could, in theory, just press pause for six years, and what are they gonna do about it? They'll be very happy when you come back.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  I'm not sure, I'm not sure if I didn't work for six years is quite a long time.

• 28:16Adam Buxton?

  Sure, but I mean, what would happen, though? Why, why couldn't you do that?

• 28:19Speaker 03

  God, you sound like Sophie, um.

• 28:22Adam Buxton?

  Your wife.

• 28:23Speaker 03

  Yes, my wife. Um, I think.

• 28:28Speaker 03

  It's part of who they have as a father and a husband. And I think they all they go mad if I stayed at home.

• 28:38Adam Buxton?

  What would you be doing round the home? Would you be building furniture?

• 28:41Speaker 03

  Probably making movies out of our lives, or I would be probably be building furniture. No, I would go full DDL. I think it's, why not? You know, and every time you you veer into that sort of thing, and I did a lot for Power of the Dog, you know, I was like, okay, I've just done some taxidermy. I don't think I'm gonna want to do too much of that. It's quite smelly and dirty for obvious reasons, but I I, you know, the ironmongery, not like a feature in the film, but just living that kind of outdoor life or creative life where you're learning how to grow things and produce things and farm things. I could happily do that. I could happily have a farm somewhere disappear into that. I played a few artists in my time, and that that is something I'd love to really sit down and get on with and musician or two. I haven't really played a musician, but I use music.

• 29:23Adam Buxton?

  I was gonna ask if you played a musician and which musician would you play?

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Characters that play music, you know, so I played the banjo terribly in Power of the Dog. Um, what musician would I play? I would have loved to have played Bowie, but I'm too old.

• 29:35Adam Buxton?

  He could play late period Bowie. He's got a story that goes right through until he's nearly seventeen.

• 29:39Speaker 03

  You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right.

• 29:41Adam Buxton?

  Very interesting part of his life.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  I, yeah, I mean, it's most important to get a blessing for that from the people that mattered most to him in his life.

• 29:48Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 03

  I think unless that's a go, then it's not gonna happen. And I, yeah, we, there was a project once, but I won't say too much about it.

• 29:56Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 29:57Speaker 03

  It didn't really happen because Duncan.

• 29:58Adam Buxton?

  No one's really nailed a good Bowie film yet, I don't think.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't want to express an opinion on that. Um, I kind, I, I can, I I kind of agree.

• 30:08Adam Buxton?

  I mean, it's so hard to do, isn't it?

• 30:09Speaker 03

  It's really hard. And I'm a huge Johnny Flynn fan. I thought he was pretty terrific, but it it could have been a better film, but he's he's he's a talent.

• 30:17Adam Buxton?

  When your character in The Roses decides that he is gonna become the primary caregiver for the children, while Olivia's character Ivy becomes a super chef.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:29Adam Buxton?

  One of the first scenes where we see him making that switch in a slightly manic way is with him running along, taking the children jogging. They're in their early teens.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:39Adam Buxton?

  And he's like. I'm sick of seeing my wife shoveling sugary treats into the mouths of my children. I'm going to turn them into super athletes and and I'm going to be uber dad. And you're running along, correct me if I'm wrong, are you listening to a podcast? Or are you talking?

• 30:56Speaker 03

  I'm listening to Hannibal.

• 30:57Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Speaker 03

  That's why you should put the, yeah, no, I'm no, I'm not, I'm, I'm. They're just very snazzy looking glasses that look like they could probably have Google on them.

• 31:06Adam Buxton?

  But you're sort of ranting to yourself.

• 31:08Speaker 03

  And I'm just going, I mean, a middle aged breakdown. It's a proper midlife crisis moment or everything's turning on its head. And I'm trying to talk myself positive, basically.

• 31:17Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Whilst ignoring the fact that my kids can hear everything I'm saying. And I'm talking about, you don't want to be part of that. You don't want to be part of that toxic masculinity jizzing in the face of humanity. You know, he's taking himself apart and sort of doing a cultural appraisal along the way of the state of male masculinity in this moment.

• 31:34Adam Buxton?

  It sounded very podcast buzzword. Like I've listened to a lot of podcasts where all those things are expressed. And I felt those feelings myself as well. Like sometimes you come out of listening to those conversations and you are filled with a sense of being kind of lost and like, oh my God, what am I? What function do I serve as a, you know?

• 31:56Speaker 03

  This is you as the interviewer, me as the, me as the interviewee.

• 31:59Adam Buxton?

  This is me, I'm relating to the character at that moment.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:03Adam Buxton?

  And having those thoughts as a, you know, privileged, middle aged man.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:08Adam Buxton?

  Sort of overwhelmed by his position in society and what it should be and what I should be doing.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:14Adam Buxton?

  As a father, as a husband, as all these things that I am mediocre at so often.

• 32:19Speaker 03

  I think that the thing of it as well, which he doesn't see coming is what he thinks he's doing is screwing up the bit of paper that says be ambitious and throwing it away because it's toxic and awful. And focusing on something more wholesome, which is, you know, raising children. But what he doesn't realize, a little bit like an addict going from, I don't know, drugs to working out a lot. He's just going to then channel all that obsession into his children and. And completely kind of thought fast on the direction they were going in, which was this happy mediumish, but more maybe mum influenced sort of laissez faire parenting. And he's going to be really rigid, give them a lot of structure, make them do a lot of exercise and stop eating sugar. And they, and they're gonna get turned on by it. I

• 33:02Speaker 03

  mean, kids do like structure. So give them a structure, they'll kind of go with it. He doesn't realise in that moment of going, I'm going to be a better person by doing something wholesome. He's actually doing something quite obsessive in the same way as, you know, architecture was his obsession.

• 33:15Adam Buxton?

  And in the process, driving a wedge between him and his wife.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly.

• 33:19Adam Buxton?

  Because she, her relationship with her children is now compromised. She doesn't spend so much time with them. It breaks her heart when she realises that.

• 33:28Speaker 03

  And her way of communicating with them is food. And he's kind of banned the kind of dessert fest that a lot of that food was in their early childhood by saying, sugar's bad for you, causes cancer, it's inflammatory.

• 33:38Adam Buxton?

  All true, by the way. All true.

• 33:55Adam Buxton?

  The film starts with couples therapy.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:59Adam Buxton?

  Have you ever had couples therapy? I mean, I know I'm, we're not going to chat about your private life, but.

• 34:04Speaker 03

  This is certainly not something we're going to talk about.

• 34:06Adam Buxton?

  That's not a personal question, is it?

• 34:08Speaker 03

  [laughing]

• 34:09Adam Buxton?

  You don't have to say exactly what you had. Anyway, couples therapy. The film starts with a scene of you having couples therapy, you and Olivia's character.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:20Adam Buxton?

  And I mean, couples therapy. I don't know if I would ever have couples therapy, but apparently it's quite effective. I looked it up and I thought like, surely it's not effective. Because I would think that if you went in and sat there and you aired your grievances about your partner, it would just be impossible to get any kind of meaningful, satisfying.

• 34:46Adam Buxton?

  Result from that, you know, wouldn't you just constantly be carrying around resentments about each other and not really being honest and

• 34:55Speaker 03

  I think

• 34:55Adam Buxton?

  Trying to settle scores in a way that was

• 34:58Speaker 03

  No, I don't, I, it shouldn't be, I think it shouldn't be about that. It shouldn't be about scores. I think, I think once you get into a world of scarcity and go, but you did this and I did that, and what's fair, what's not fair. A good therapist, I suppose, holds you together. And that's what a couple of therapists are supposed to do, right? They hold you in the conversation. And I don't know, maybe it's a safe place to air some of those grievances. If, if that language becomes too inflammatory at home.

• 35:22Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:23Speaker 03

  Or that problem becomes too inflammatory, maybe that helps. I don't want to do a whole industry down. I mean, the film sort of satirizes it because they're such a ridiculous couple at that moment. They don't just, you know, undermine the task by writing, they're supposed to write 10 things I love about you, you know, something good about the person. And, you know, Theo's list about her is really underwhelming and conditional. You know, I like the shape of her head at a distance.

• 35:45Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  I remember her smelling nice on occasion. I prefer being married to her than a wolf. I mean, it's not very good. And then she writes a list of things she hates about him, which is very Ivy. Uh, ending in a brilliant diatribe, which I think is probably in the, but I'll let, I'll let Olivia say, say it, because it's funny when she says the C word. Um, and I just, I, it, it's, it's their language between each other. And where it helps in that moment is that they realize what they haven't been doing. They haven't been speaking to each other. They've been speaking at each other. And there is a difference. You, you're not, it's, it's been one sided argument and not, and then they, and they laughed at it. They just, the bridge of it is, is finding the other one amusing. I mean, I think he compliments as I preferred your list. Your list was best, you know?

• 36:30Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 03

  Kind of was.

• 36:31Adam Buxton?

  I know. Well, that's a strange.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  On many occasions, her lists and insults were often better.

• 36:36Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Speaker 03

  Um, but I, you know,

• 36:38Adam Buxton?

  It's a funny moment in the scene because you sort of think, well, if a couple are able to laugh at each other and with each other like that, then they're sort of okay.

• 36:45Speaker 03

  But I think the therapist is absolutely right. All of it's very, very toxic and dangerous and could undermine any lasting relationship. And then behold, that's what happens. And they are very good at words, but they don't use them the right way. And they do, you know, the teasing and cajoling and it, it, it's corrosive. And when it becomes really combative in the film, it's violent and nasty and

• 37:05Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, literally violent towards the end.

• 37:07Speaker 03

  That's intolerable for both of them, you know? And then literal violence, exactly. Which we deal with in a.

• 37:13Adam Buxton?

  Well, it's quite.

• 37:14Speaker 03

  Cosi-omic, it's heightened.

• 37:16Adam Buxton?

  The tone is.

• 37:17Speaker 03

  But there are bursts of real anger in there.

• 37:19Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah.

• 37:20Speaker 03

  You know, we're not, we're not trying to make funny out of people that want to kill each other in a domestic environment.

• 37:24Adam Buxton?

  Well, it's the same sort of heightened, slightly cartoonish tone that the Danny DeVito film had.

• 37:30Speaker 03

  Exactly, where you kind of go, they're not going to do that, are they? Ooh. And I think, uh, that was my reaction to them doing that.

• 37:36Adam Buxton?

  Ooh.

• 37:37Speaker 03

  And you do, ooh. Ooh. Um.

• 37:44Speaker 03

  Uh, where was I going with that? Sorry. Uh, yeah, no, it was just heightened, that's the word.

• 37:48Adam Buxton?

  Is it gronguignol?

• 37:50Speaker 03

  What does that mean?

• 37:51Adam Buxton?

  Well, I'm sure you would tell me. You must know, that's a theatrical phrase, isn't it? Gran, grandguignol?

• 37:57Speaker 03

  Snails? I don't know. Gong, gonguignol, it probably is.

• 38:00Adam Buxton?

  For some reason, it's in my head, it's been in my head all my life. I've never known exactly.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  I know that one.

• 38:06Adam Buxton?

  Esprit d'escalier, you define esprit d'escalier.

• 38:08Speaker 03

  Escalier, so I can feel a little bit better about not knowing gonguignol. Um, is when you are descending the stairs after an exchange in the salon and you have a blast of. Doh, that's what I should have said.

• 38:22Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 03

  They didn't say doh in those days.

• 38:24Adam Buxton?

  Doh, doh.

• 38:26Speaker 03

  But it's realising the witty comeback that wasn't available to you in the moment.

• 38:30Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  So it's the spirit of the stairs, because it's as you're leaving, you go, ah, shucks, I missed it.

• 38:34Adam Buxton?

  It is a very useful phrase, because everyone feels, especially in the modern world, in the social media world.

• 38:39Speaker 03

  You know?

• 38:40Adam Buxton?

  It's true. Like, oh, of course I know what I should have said. And especially after a confrontation.

• 38:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:46Adam Buxton?

  In public or whatever, like, if you get into a row with someone at the train station or whatever, and you, you have the perfect. And you feel humiliated and, and tongue tied in those moments. And then afterwards, you're like, of course I should have said this brilliant thing. Esprit d'escalier, the other one that is useful as a concept is schadenfreude, of course.

• 39:08Speaker 03

  Schadenfreude. Well, I think that's, that's to talk about the movie more, is very much a feeling. It's there, but for the grace of God, go we, as a couple night movie. It shouldn't be a depressing film. A, hopefully you're kind of gunning for both of them and not eating. Either or, but both of them, they love what they actually have. And secondly, when it gets really dark, you could kind of go, well, I can recognize bits of us, but whoa, thank God we didn't go there.

• 39:31Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  There, but for the grace of God, go we. So the schadenfreude is that enjoyment of other people's suffering, isn't it?

• 39:37Adam Buxton?

  Yes.

• 39:37Speaker 03

  The kind of vicarious.

• 39:38Adam Buxton?

  Taking pleasure in other people's misfortunes.

• 39:40Speaker 03

  Exactly, which I think that's what art and storytelling can do. It gives us that kind of cathartic release of going, whoa, thank God I didn't meet my father and blind him and bugger my mother.

• 39:48Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 03

  Not my guys, but you know what I mean.

• 39:51Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah, I'd love that.

• 39:52Speaker 03

  That's Oedipus, that's.

• 39:53Adam Buxton?

  That's your next film.

• 39:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:58Speaker 03

  Oh, dear.

• 39:59Adam Buxton?

  A lovely glass of schadenfreude. Or, as my son said the other day, dad, who's Freud and Schneider?

• 40:08Adam Buxton?

  I was like, okay.

• 40:09Speaker 03

  Rip off of Freud, he made hot dogs.

• 40:12Adam Buxton?

  It's great, man. I really enjoyed it. It's like, I, I just want, I want to see a film about feelings and mad feelings, real feelings, relatable feelings, abstract feelings, whatever. It was good to watch a, a thing that was all about that. My feelings are important. My feelings are the best. Sometimes I feel happy. Sometimes I'm depressed. I love my feelings.

• 40:40Adam Buxton?

  Nothing is real unless it's something I feel. My feelings, my feelings, my feelings. That's where I start, that's where I end. And if you don't respect my feelings, then we can't be friends. We can't be friends.

• 41:16Adam Buxton?

  I'm going to switch to asking you some questions that can be quick fire.

• 41:23Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 41:23Adam Buxton?

  So we don't have to dwell on them.

• 41:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:25Adam Buxton?

  You could give quick responses. I'm thinking of James Lipton a little bit.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  Okay, great.

• 41:29Adam Buxton?

  You were never inside the actor's studio, were you yourself?

• 41:31Speaker 03

  Outside it, no.

• 41:32Adam Buxton?

  No.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  No, I'm like a loser.

• 41:34Adam Buxton?

  You were barred from the actor's studio.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  Uh, no, but I know what you mean.

• 41:37Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, okay.

• 41:38Speaker 03

  Inside the actor's studio.

• 41:41Adam Buxton?

  Have you ever had

• 41:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:42Adam Buxton?

  A massive meltdown on a film set?

• 41:44Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 41:46Adam Buxton?

  Shouting, throwing things.

• 41:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:49Adam Buxton?

  Have it, has it been filmed?

• 41:50Speaker 03

  And recorded and put out there like Tom Cruise? No.

• 41:53Adam Buxton?

  No.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  No. I mean, massive, probably not. Massive for me.

• 41:57Adam Buxton?

  What was it about? Do you remember why it happened?

• 41:59Speaker 03

  I wouldn't call it a massive meltdown. And I'm always very all over the place after I have any kind of loss of composure. But uh, usually to do with insecurity.

• 42:07Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, of course.

• 42:07Speaker 03

  It's what it's all about with any actors that are notorious for that or do it on, surprisingly. Um, it's about a loss in confidence of self and going, help me, I'm a, I'm naked up here and I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, you know? And then you just look for, you look for something to, I don't, it's not about blaming someone. It's often for me in a bigger film, when the director's not there, when I'm just kind of in front of a camera, the crew are about a hundred yards away, the camera's going like that and I'm being flown around a street and guess what? Production that was, uh, it, that, that gets, that's difficult. Um, are you gonna remind, um, you're looking at me as if like. Well, that's interesting, Ben, if you haven't mentioned this one, which Martin Freeman told me about on the seventh of August in.

• 42:46Adam Buxton?

  No, I'm trying to, I'm, I'm cultivating sympathy for actors in that situation, having been criticized by friends, well, Louis Theroux mainly, for basing one of my podcast jingles on Christian Bale's meltdown on the set of uh, Terminator Salvation.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  One of your jingles. One, the other favorite of mine, just to get off the sticky subject on my meltdowns is, is your square space one. And I was trying to look for it on SoundCloud and I can't find it. I don't have search for anything on SoundCloud. I'm so, everything illiterate, but especially that. And I, I love it. I just love it because I'm a big fan of Michael Barbaro on The Daily.

• 43:20Adam Buxton?

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:20Speaker 03

  You know, the kind of, hmm, the, the audio version of the, huh, of the noddy, you know, the kind of cutaway when an interviewer on telly is just nodding going, hmm, I deeply understand what they're saying or kind of going along with it. And he goes, huh, hmm, huh, but you just take it to this section, it's just go, huh, huh, huh.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's me. That's me aged twelve and now. And I guess it's how all this started, actually, with dictaphones and doing silly voices and voices and my own version of.

• 43:48Adam Buxton?

  Is that what you used to do?

• 43:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, it is. It is. I used to. That was kind of before I was given more responsibility and actually doing it properly. I just kind of run around doing. And I think that's where my ear for impersonations and stuff like that came about.

• 44:02Adam Buxton?

  On your dictaphone?

• 44:03Speaker 03

  On a dictaphone at school, yeah.

• 44:04Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  And then just sort of going around and.

• 44:06Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, the magic of recording your voice and hearing it back for the first time.

• 44:09Speaker 03

  And having conversations with it, with the character that I was portraying, a master or a pupil, someone made up and with other, and you know, in front of kids as they were going to bed and I was trying to be the authority in that moment. I remember doing that and, yeah, lots of skits and lots of things like that for real, as in with other people, but yeah. The jingles thing I've always loved. He shouldn't be angry with you about Christian Bell. Christian Bell's brilliant and he could probably take it. It's probably very flattered and it's very funny. But I probably imagine in that moment, I can put myself in that moment and I've heard about that D O P. I've heard he is incredibly disrespectful. I've only worked with Christian down the line in Andy Serkis, uh, retelling of the Jungle Book, which is wonderful to have a moment with him. Sadly, not on set, but he was so charming.

• 44:57Speaker 04

  Right, let's go again. What don't you fucking understand? Kick your fucking ass! Let's go again! What the fuck is it with you? I want you off the fucking set, you prick! No! You're a nice guy! The fuck are you doing? No! Don't shut me up! No! No! Ah, da da da da like this. No! No! Don't shut me up! Ah, da da da da like this. Fuck's sake, man, you're amateur. Seriously, man, you and me, we're fucking done professionally.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  I, I, I think it's usually for me about feeling insecure, feeling that things are so far away and I don't know what I'm doing. I, I did a film recently. Um, I won't mention. Because I don't want to involve people's names in it, in the anecdote, but my, my side of it, my sort of insecurity was that there'd been a while, a discussion of something that wasn't going right in this long old action scene, this big old fight number and counter directions coming from A Ds and the first A D and, and I was going, can, please, can I have a director? Can I just have a, and everyone went really quiet. Because director does a lot remotely, he watches it, he feeds in. But I said, I need my, my director. Well, we got, no, that's, I need my, the director here now. And everyone was like, a little bit, I felt, but probably not, probably other people going, yeah, that'd be nice.

• 46:11Speaker 03

  It would be nice. Come on. And he was, and he was fine. And he sorted it out. He knew that, you know, I was having a bit of a hissy. And I need to, you know, have my knickers untwisted. Yeah. And it wasn't really a hissy either. It was just like, what the fuck are we actually doing? I'm, this is, I can't hold like five different versions of this in my head and know which one I'm supposed to be doing. And it was cleared up and it was great. And actually it made a difference. He, he really improved the bit that we were struggling with. But I, I have that sometimes and it's usually when it's, I don't understand what is wanted as well. Cause I am, I mean, to my detriment at times, a bit of a people pleaser. And if I feel, and it's like, no, no, no, I'm at, but I thought I was, no, no, no. If I can't get that right, that wears me down. I don't think I have a hissy fit. So I just lose all kind of faith in being any good at anything.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  At that point. And it's quite a spectacular amount of people to feel that in front of. Hmm. And I've definitely, I've had that on stage countless times when you just go, they really, I've lost everyone in this room. What am I doing here? And I'm just imagining other people doing this. And thinking, why did they spend any money and time watching me kind of flail around and fail, you know? So you just kind of have to have another point of focus in those crisis moments and go, I'm just going to work with the people opposite me. They know what I'm doing and I'm going to really listen to them and hope that, you know, something happens between us and not worry about my own crashing sense of uh inadequacy or fear, you know?

• 47:34Adam Buxton?

  Oh, it's very heartening to hear someone as accomplished as you struggling with those things.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  That's true. I think we all do.

• 47:40Adam Buxton?

  Of course. Impressions, though, I'm not going to get you to do the thing they did.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  Well, I've got a treat for you if we have time.

• 47:47Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 47:47Speaker 03

  And my director actually said, and it wasn't director I was talking about, this is Dylan Southern, who I just did, who's sort of originally from the sort of music video world.

• 47:56Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  So quite au fait with tech, he's a real cineaste and he's a brilliant director. And this is his first time feature. It's an adaptation of a Max Porter novel called The Thing, well, Grief is the Thing with Feathers is the brilliant novella, which actually you should definitely read.

• 48:08Adam Buxton?

  Hmm.

• 48:09Speaker 03

  In our version, it's called The Thing with Feathers. And he, you know, it's a very serious book for those listeners who know it and a very serious subject, but dealt with in the most extraordinary. What was that phrase you had earlier, the gongguinial?

• 48:21Adam Buxton?

  Grand guignol.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  Kind of a bit of gongguinial going on in it at times and humour and darkness and really authentic grief and, and uh, tears and maelstrom. So is this quite, it's quite rich, deep stuff. But this, however, is what he spent his time doing um, when he was in a bored moment of editing. And I just think you'll appreciate, and I did ask for his permission before I came on stage, I thought, I don't, I don't have a jingle. I don't have the time or the whereabouts uh, to do it, where, how, know how. But this, this is his first offering. Can I have those?

• 49:12Adam Buxton?

  Adam, my what?

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Special pole.

• 49:14Adam Buxton?

  Oh, my special pole.

• 49:18Speaker 03

  And I thought, okay, that.

• 49:19Adam Buxton?

  That's Dylan Southern, is it?

• 49:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it could be Adam Buckson. And it was just sort of slightly unnerving. But yeah, anyway, I don't, you can use that or not, but I thought I had to share that with you, whether it's in real time.

• 49:28Adam Buxton?

  I'd love to.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  Adam Buckson time.

• 49:29Adam Buxton?

  All right, quick fire. Do you smell nice? What is your favourite smell?

• 49:33Speaker 03

  It's important to me, yes. I like natural smells, but I don't want to overload people with either that or the cologne cover up, which I find that is more offensive actually than BO these days. It's like when you walk into an elevator and you smell of the cologne that that person or where the toilet that the woman is.

• 49:49Adam Buxton?

  Well, we're in a hotel, which is one of those hotels that has quite a heavily perfumed lobby.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Don't you see, I'm so anethetized to it because I've been in here for three whole days. I'd probably smell of the hotel now when I go home, but.

• 50:03Adam Buxton?

  Do you wear deodorant?

• 50:04Speaker 03

  No, I wear rock salt, the rock crystal stuff, I use that. This is very, wow. I never thought I'd be talking about what I rub under my armpits with.

• 50:11Adam Buxton?

  Rock crystals you're rubbing under there?

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, you know, uh, yeah, it's, it's basic salt crystal. It's called salt of the earth. Uh, and yeah, it's, it basically, it's a natural bacteria killer. So it kind of kills the thing that makes the odor. It doesn't give you a nice smell, it stops you smelling bad.

• 50:27Adam Buxton?

  Okay, so rub a bit under the arms, bit under the, uh, nutties?

• 50:30Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah, well, whoa, whoa, we just maybe, I mean, you know, leave that to the audience's imagination.

• 50:36Adam Buxton?

  Okay then. Um, here's a nice question.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  Go on then.

• 50:39Adam Buxton?

  What always lifts your spirits could be in any medium?

• 50:43Speaker 03

  Listening to you doing the Squarespace.

• 50:47Adam Buxton?

  The Michael Barbaro impression.

• 50:48Speaker 03

  It really makes me happy just thinking about it. There are a few things like that.

• 50:53Adam Buxton?

  Using templates and drag and drop tools, you can create a professional looking website in less than half an hour.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  Um, what else makes me happy? My family. What a suck up and sentimentless name, but it's true. Those are the two things that make me happy, you and my family.

• 51:10Adam Buxton?

  Ah, thank you, I'm honoured.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  These are things that are coming off the top of my head. I mean, it depends, nature, nature, nature. Going back to the proper vibrational frequency that we're all having at a rest state, which is apparently the same as the earth's. That's been proven. So getting rid of your smart things and just walking around and it could be a nice flat bit of Norfolk or a hilly woody bit of somewhere, but you know, trees are my thing as well. I love that kind of tree bath thing.

• 51:34Adam Buxton?

  Is there a film that reliably lifts your spirits that you return to?

• 51:37Speaker 03

  I mean, the big ones, seasonally, you know, like It's a Wonderful Life. I remember Sophie and I were in Edinburgh and she went, let's go and see it. It's on at the cinema. I can't see it too many times. My god, though, in the cinema, the, the microscopic detail of how extraordinary those performances are.

• 51:50Adam Buxton?

  I haven't seen it for years.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  Oh, he's so good in it. I mean, and not just because it's kind of iconic, but his, it's a brilliant piece of naturalism. He's so alive in everything he does. It's remarkable and you really only get that hit, I think, in a close up in a, in a cinema.

• 52:06Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Not on the iPhone.

• 52:08Adam Buxton?

  No. What was it that David Lynch would say? If people feel they've seen a movie on their fucking phone, it's a tragedy. You haven't seen a film if you watch it on your phone.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Did you? You did a podcast. Did you do a podcast with him?

• 52:23Adam Buxton?

  No, he was always on my wishlist.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  You did. We have done with, is it Venders or is it?

• 52:27Adam Buxton?

  Oh, Herzog.

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Herzog. How was that?

• 52:30Adam Buxton?

  That was.

• 52:30Speaker 01

  I should listen to that one on the way.

• 52:32Adam Buxton?

  Oh, that's quite a good one. Yeah, yeah. It worked out well. We had some technical issues and I initially thought we we had one session via Zoom that ended with me just giving up basically after half an hour. He was getting more and more frustrated. And he said, I knew this would happen. This is grotesque.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  I mean, that.

• 52:55Adam Buxton?

  Because of the technical issues, he really hates all that.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Grotesque.

• 52:59Adam Buxton?

  This is grotesque. I told them it would happen like this.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  I love your version because it's like it's like he's got an elastic mouth.

• 53:08Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, my version has gone quite. What's your version?

• 53:11Speaker 01

  I think he's a little tighter. Everything's just a little. His jaw is hurting when he speaks.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  But yours is like, I want to swallow a tennis ball.

• 53:23Adam Buxton?

  Mine's got quite a long way from reality.

• 53:26Speaker 01

  It's more like velvet under grass.

• 53:30Adam Buxton?

  That's right.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  It's Nico, yes.

• 53:32Adam Buxton?

  It's tremendous, Nico.

• 53:35Speaker 01

  I'll be your mirror.

• 53:37Adam Buxton?

  It is grotesque.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  Wait. This is an ad for Squarespace. Okay, we'll return to the AI apocalypse in just a wee wee moment, but first I wanted to talk about Squarespace. Do you know about Squarespace, Steve? Uh, yes, Monty. I think I might even be a little bit more tuned into modern tech, websites, et cetera, than you. I don't know. Just guessing. Oh, Steve, I love this dynamic. I'm old and conservative and you're young and progressive and that's what makes the Newswind podcast such great listening. But yes, you're right. I must admit, I didn't know much about Squarespace. But because my new grumble book, Hell in a Handcart, is out this month. And I look forward to getting enraged by that. So I should hope.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  Anyway, the publishers, Bluestar and Dogwhistle, made a beautiful website for the book using Squarespace. I know, I got the newsletter that you sent out using Squarespace, and the website does look great. Videos of you airing your views, members' areas for your mad fans, you've even got a merch store, I see. That's right, a Union Jack top hat is a big seller, but they constructed it all so fast with Squarespace. They did most of it over one lunchtime, Steve. Well, you wouldn't want to spend much longer on it, would you? Shut up, Steve. But here's the thing, anyone listening to this can start a free trial right now at Squarespace.com/boxton and see how easy and versatile Squarespace is. And when they're ready to launch a new website or domain, they can save 10% off their first purchase by using the offer code BOXTON at checkout. Right, well, maybe I'll visit Squarespace.com/boxton and start a new website just to refute all the nonsense in your new book.

• 55:05Speaker 02

  Oh, don't do that, Steve. I will. Oh, shut up, Steve. Shut up. Now, back to more depressing matters on Newsweek.

• 55:14Adam Buxton?

  Continue. Have you ever put drugs on your bum? People do that, don't they? They do. I don't.

• 55:32Adam Buxton?

  Hey, welcome back, podcats. That was Benedict Cumberbatch talking to me there, of course. Well, just there, it was us going to a place that I thought better of going to. There was a PR person in the room and I, I didn't look over at that exact moment, but I was getting the feeling that I should move on from that particular subject. Anyway, it was really great to meet Benedict and I'm very grateful to him and his team for making the time to talk to me. A reminder that The Roses is in cinemas now, and later this year you'll be able to see Benedict in that Dylan Southern film, The Thing With Feathers.

• 56:17Adam Buxton?

  Before I say goodbye, another couple of cultural recommendations for you. Miranda Sawyer's podcast, Talk 90s To Me. Miranda is a great journalist who writes brilliantly about music. She's been on this podcast before and actually she has invited me on to her podcast to talk about the 90s.

• 56:39Adam Buxton?

  And pop culture and DIY TV and music and all that kind of stuff. I'm looking forward to that. But it was good timing because I'd been audiobooking her Britpop book, which is called Uncommon People. Synopsis begins: When Miranda Sawyer interviewed Noel Gallagher in 1995, his gag wishing Damon Albarn would die of AIDS became front-page news. This fascinating pop history exploring the mid-'90s moment when British music suddenly meant everything explains why. Picking out twenty key songs, delving into the surprising stories behind them and their unlikely creators, Uncommon People takes us back to when Jarvis Cocker

• 57:20Adam Buxton?

  became a national hero, Trainspotting was a global hit, fire-starting seemed like a good night out, and it felt as though the revolution was happening. A very different time. Anyway, as I said, she writes really well about it. I'm enjoying it so much, and I'm looking forward to appearing on her podcast, Talk Nineties To Me. Also, I just listened to the first episode of a Radio 4 series, which you can listen to now on BBC Sounds, What Happened to Counter-Culture? It's presented by Stuart Lee. In fact, I was going to mention it last week when I talked about bumping into Stuart, but I forgot. And it's produced

• 58:01Adam Buxton?

  by Simon Hollis. The blurb says, "Comedian Stuart Lee presents a five-part series exploring the evolution and key ideas that have driven counterculture from its beginnings with the Beats, folk and jazz in the 1950s to its heights in the 1960s and 70s, including the hippies and early tech communalists, the new libertarian movements and punk, to the 1980s and early 90s where political power on both sides of the Atlantic pushed back against the values of the permissive society." It's good, interesting, timely. You've got contributors that include Brian Eno, authors Ian Sinclair and Olivia Lang, music producer Joe Boyd.

• 58:47Adam Buxton?

  I loved his book White Bicycles, I really recommend that. Joe Boyd produced early Pink Floyd and Nick Drake and was a seminal figure in the British folk movement in the sixties. It's such a good book, White Bicycles. There's also sculptor Emily Young, cultural historian John Savage, folk singer Shirley Collins, and that's just in episode one. What happened to counterculture? There's a link in the description that will get you to BBC Sounds where you can listen to it. By the way, I'm not sponsored by them, the castle that is. It's just something I enjoyed and I thought I would share it with you. And finally, hope you'll forgive me for mentioning it again, but it would be sort of insane if I didn't,

• 59:31Adam Buxton?

  considering it comes out this week. My album Buckle Up lands on the 12th of September. There's a link in the description that will enable you to preorder

• 59:42Speaker 04

  Order!

• 59:43Adam Buxton?

  a vinyl copy that comes with beautiful signed artwork. And the same day that the album comes out, I think I'm right in saying, single number three comes out, Dancing in the Middle.

• 1:00:12Adam Buxton?

  And it will be accompanied by a video by animator Syriak Harris. If you used to come to bug shows, you will have seen many of Syriak's videos that we used to play there. If you've never heard of Syriak Harris, well, I would go exploring. Type in C Y R I K, Syriak YouTube Animations, and you're gonna have a crazy, strange time. But Syriak has also directed many excellent music videos over the years, including one for My Counting Song. Counting, counting, counting, counting, counting things you like.

• 1:00:53Adam Buxton?

  That was Syriac, although on that one he was working with artist Sarah Brown doing the illustrations. This time it's just solo Syriac doing a video for Dancing in the Middle. Hope you enjoy it. I'm really delighted that Syriac did it. And overall, I really hope you like the album. It's like a mixtape of extended jingles. Is that good? I've been doing press for it this week, which is slightly anxiety inducing and I often come out kicking myself for feeling that I've kind of undersold the album, put myself down too much. You know what I'm like.

• 1:01:36Adam Buxton?

  But the truth is, I'm really happy with it. I'm very grateful to everyone who's helped me put it together and I really hope you like it. Alright, that's it for this week's episode. Thank you very much indeed, once again, to Benedict Cumberbatch. Thanks to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his production support and additional conversation editing. Thanks to everyone at Acast for liaising with my sponsors. Thanks to Helen Green for her beautiful artwork, but thanks most of all to you. Oh, you did it again. You came back, you listened to the end. I hope you enjoyed it. Hope it didn't send you into an apoplectic rage for any reason.

• 1:02:18Adam Buxton?

  And whether it did or not, I hope you won't consider me too forward if I propose a bit of a hug. Hey, come on. It's just a hug. Alright? Nice to see you. I hope you're doing well out there. Go carefully. Until next time, I love you. Bye.

• 1:02:47Speaker 05

  Like and subscribe, like and subscribe, like and subscribe, please like and subscribe. Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up, nice like a fan when me bums up. Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up, nice like a fan when me bums up. Like and subscribe, like and subscribe, like and subscribe, please like and subscribe. Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up, nice like a fan when me bums up. Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up, nice like a fan when me bums up. Like and subscribe, like and subscribe, like and subscribe, please like and subscribe.

• 1:03:30Speaker 05

  Gimme like a smile and a thumbs up, nice like a fan when me bums up.