412: This Is Going to Be a Therapy Session (w/ Shan Boodram!)

How do I become someone people care about? Should I tell my roommate’s boyfriend that she is cheating on him? How do I meet people and start dating? What break-up remedies do you recommend? My boyfriend has a different aesthetic than mine, how do we decorate? How do I deal with the grief of losing a pet that is still alive? …Shan Boodram and John Green have answers. If you're in need of dubious advice, email us at [email protected]. Join us for monthly livestreams at patreon.com/dearhankandjohn. Follow us on Twitter! twitter.com/dearhankandjohn See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  You're listening to a Complexly podcast.

• 0:09John Green?

  Hello and welcome to Dear Hank and John, or in this case Dear John and Shan. It's a very special episode where I am joined by Crash Course Sex Ed host Shan. Hello.

• 0:21Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, that still feels like a dream come true to hear those three words strung together. Is that three words? Crash, course, host, Shan. It's four.

• 0:30John Green?

  It's four, but just Crash Course Host is three, so that'll work.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  But it's gotta say my name for it to really zing, you know? That's the feeling of, you know, I grew up, I didn't grow up watching Crash Course. That's a lie. I went to college and I had Crash Course. Because I think when people say that, sometimes they make it seem as if they're much younger than they are. I was college age when I was deep into my Crash Course phase and it was such a gift to me. And so when I got that email, it was a literal no brainer, just to be able to give back to this space. And then how rewarding to see how it's giving back to others in return. So it's all around, it's an experience. I just wanted to say thank you. I never actually got to say thank you so much to the work that you and your brother do. So just happy to say it to you in person and thanks for the opportunity to host on Crash Course.

• 1:16John Green?

  Well, thank you for doing such an amazing job. I'm so proud of Crash Course Sex Ed. If you haven't seen it, you should check it out. It covers all the topics, you know? I have to confess, I've been sharing it with my kids because, you know, some of that stuff's a little hard to talk about. So I'm just like, hey, I think there's a Crash Course on this.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Can I get your advice on this, actually, John? Because I have a niece and nephew who are 13 and 15. And I come across this all the time in my work where I speak to parents about sex. And then the parent is like, oh, my kids aren't even thinking about that. And that's the majority of people's responses. But when we know what normal sexual development is and what normally happens age by age, we know that statistically, your kid is probably thinking about it. And if they're not, someone in class is. So I have my niece and nephew who are so dear to me. And I brought it up to them in front of a parent who immediately gave the, they're not even thinking that way shutdown. And since then, I've tried to bring it up to them again to get them engaged about or excited about watching it.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  So how did you get your kids to watch it? Did you text the link? Did you send it?

• 2:20John Green?

  Oh, no, I sat with them. Is that too embarrassing?

• 2:23Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 2:25John Green?

  Yeah.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Maybe I have to sit with them. Is that, that feel, does that feel forceful?

• 2:29John Green?

  No. Well, I guess it would feel forceful if I was like, hey, there's a crash course about this and we have to watch it. You're, it's required viewing, but I went out of my way not to do that. I was like, hey, I think there's a crash course about this if you're curious. And so we can talk about it afterwards. And like, for me, that's part of, part of what it does is provide a venue through which you can talk about something with no stigma, no shame attached, no like, no judgment, all that, all that stuff that goes into so many conversations about human sexuality. And instead, just kind of use it as a jumping off point, as like a diving board. And then you're swimming in the water, one way or another. I will say that my kids, like, after I talk about this stuff, they're always like, I'm always like, do you have questions? They're always like, absolutely not.

• 3:14John Green?

  One time, I don't know if I should tell this story, but I think it's hilarious. One time, one of my kids, when they were very young, like six or seven, one of my kids said, I said, you know, you know what a lesbian is, right? And they said, yeah, but can you remind me?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  I love that. And it's around the age of eight or nine that they get the concept that sexuality is a private thing. You know, a lot of us even grew up with the term privates to describe our genitals. It doesn't really click for them for a long time because they're walking around naked, they're pointing at penises and vulvas and asking all kinds of questions about where do babies come from? And it's usually around sort of seven or eight, where they start to get this notion that, oh, this is like a secretive, private thing. And then it becomes harder to engage them in conversation. So if you haven't been having them, I think from when they were really young, and then you try to start around this age, it can get a little tricky. So a part of me is a little fearful that I may have waited too long

• 4:10Speaker 02

  with my niece and nephew, which would feel like such a crime because I'm like, damn it, like, you know, the people close to me should have this information if nobody else, because that's who we truly, you know, do it for.

• 4:19John Green?

  Yeah, I mean, this is your job after all.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  Right? Get in the game, Shan.

• 4:24John Green?

  All right, Shan, I'm gonna ask you some questions from our listeners. I'm gonna try to keep it mostly PG 13. That's most of the questions we get, not out of... But there are some good ones here. I thought this was a really good question to start out with from Isabel. And this made me very sad, but I also think is a nearly universal phenomenon. So Isabel, you should not feel alone in this experience. Isabel says, Dear Shan and John, I fear I have never made an impression on anybody in my life and am thus not thought about very much by the people I love. This understandably makes me very sad. How do I become somebody that people care about? Sincerely, I hate high school Isabel.

• 5:02John Green?

  We all know what that's like, don't we? I mean, I remember that feeling very intensely.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Oh, take me back to that feeling. Do you have a moment that comes to mind?

• 5:10John Green?

  Well, this is gonna be a therapy session, I knew it. I do have a moment that comes to mind. You know, I remember thinking, it's not just that people don't like me, although insofar as I thought people thought of me, I thought they didn't like me when I was in high school, especially in like 9th and 10th grade. It's also that they didn't think about me one way or the other. And in my mind, that extended out not just to... It extended out to the people I cared about most. Like, I understood that my parents thought about me and cared about me. I just didn't really care about what they thought, you know? Like, I didn't need their affirmation. I needed affirmation from my peers, and I really wasn't getting that. And I needed to feel like, you know, the people... Like Isabel says, the people I cared about the most, which unfortunately weren't my family. It was, you know, my peers, the people I went to school with,

• 5:54John Green?

  the people I was wanting to be friends with in real life. Like, I wanted them to care about me and them to think that I was exceptional and special and interesting and worthy of care. And I wasn't, you know? I remember this one day where, like, I was sitting on the bus and everybody walked past me to sit with their friend. And I realized that, like, I didn't have a bus friend. And that was so... Such a bummer for me. And I just felt so un-lovable, uninteresting, un... Just utterly, utterly ordinary and like a piece of furniture rather than a human being, you know?

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Hmm, that's so beautiful to hear you say that. And I know, I can almost feel that person walk by and then those thoughts come to mind. I want to share, and this is going to be, it's going to round out, not to sound like a ridiculous comment, but I want to share, I don't relate to Isabel's comment. And there's a lot of hope in that. I don't relate because I grew up with a dad whom, he is a one in a billion person, and you're not going to forget him. Every room that he walks into, every encounter. But my dad's hat trick is to shock people. So I think in many ways, that kind of describes why I do what I do for a living. I'm like, what's the most taboo topic possible that I can talk about?

• 7:16Speaker 02

  But my dad always had that, like, he's just going to shock people and you're going to leave the room and remember him, and half the room is going to love him and half the room is going to hate him. So I was, I learned this trick. And so I believe for me in high school, I had that. There was a lot of, I had a lot of enemies and I had a lot of people who really adored me. But that all to be said, it's learned behavior. What I actually had to do as I got a little older is realize that, you know, you can shock people to making you memorable, but that doesn't mean that they have a positive memory about you or that you actually have a genuine connection. So I then had to, in my late twenties, go and read all of the How to Win Friends and Influence People, The Art of Seduction. Recently, I read a book called How to Know a Person by David Brooks, which completely

• 8:01Speaker 02

  revolutionized how I make connections. I've come now to appreciate introversion so much more as an extremely powerful way to get to know people and understand people. Because those who know how to be with themselves, know how to be with other people. And they know intuitively what a moment requires because they are a little bit more thoughtful. So I just think it's a matter of taking what you already know, taking the reflection, reflectiveness that you've already probably accumulated as it sounds like a quieter person in Isabel. And then applying some basic principles that you can read in a book and you can learn and you can master these. So my recommendation for her is How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is like, you know, classic book. And then my second would be How to Know

• 8:44Speaker 02

  a Person by David Brooks, because, you know, the quality of our life is definitely correlated to the quality of our relationships, not necessarily the quantity of them. So you don't need everybody to remember you and everybody, you know, to have a thought. But if five people, if you've changed the lives of five people for the better, I mean, you've left your mark on this planet and you're already still so young. So it's a beautiful thing.

• 9:07John Green?

  Yeah, no, I agree. All right. I have another question for you. It's from anonymous. Dear Shannon, John, I have reason to believe my roommate may be cheating on her long-distance boyfriend. However, I have no proof at the moment. This sounds like a detective novel. I'm going to mind my business, but if I am presented with proof that she's cheating, do I tell her boyfriend? How do I tell him? I've never met him and I don't particularly like her. Significant others and side pieces. Anonymous. I mean, what do you do here, man? Like, this is, I never know how to answer these questions. Like, whenever we get a question that's like this, I'm always like, oh, God, I have no idea how to deal with, like, competing, complicated relationships. So what's your recommendation?

• 9:48Speaker 02

  I feel like in life, you gotta know where your moral compasses, north, south, east and west are, like, four strong things that you definitely know and you stand on. And people who are around you should know that that's your value system and understand that that's the moral code that you live by. And so if that's a part of your, you know, your big four, I just brought, I've made up four on the spot. It could be five or three things. It could be one thing. Then, yeah, you say something. It's not a part of my four. I, there are other things I probably prioritize more in terms of, I think of cheating as a very human experience and very universal experience. I may have too much grace for it, but if it sounds like you don't, I would definitely say something

• 10:31Speaker 02

  if I felt it and I got the proof. And this was, again, a part of what I felt deeply convicted of as a person. Similarly, with racism, it could be environment, it could be... Somebody litters, it can be if you see someone doing something wasteful. I think that we all have a right to have something that, you know, burns in our chest that we feel like it's. We're put on this planet to try to right that wrong. And if you feel that for that, then squeal like a pig. If you don't, then I'd probably keep quiet. But again, I'm not going to pass off, you know, my moral hierarchy on to you.

• 11:01John Green?

  Oh, that's a really smart answer. I, I have no idea what I would do. I think that I would, I would find it very stressful to know that. And I do not know what I would do. I think I would, hmm, I, I don't know. I'm glad I'm not presented with that, with that conundrum.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Yes, that's kind of in your gray space. And then that's, that's fascinating, too, where it's sort of like, ah, well, tell me, tell me why you think you would and why you feel like you would not like. What's, what's straddling you on the fence?

• 11:31John Green?

  I think I would because I would want to know, especially, well, yeah, that's why. Um, because like, I think, and I, and I think I wouldn't because I would, part of me would think like. I'm not sure this is my business. Also, like, I don't know the inside of their relationship. For all I know, they could have an open relationship. Like, how do I, what do I know about their relationship? You know, like.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Isabel knows.

• 11:54John Green?

  That's probably, that's probably true. I think this is by anonymous, not Isabel. But yes, anonymous knows. Anonymous probably knows.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  You're right. Thank you so much.

• 12:02John Green?

  But we'll, we'll just call all the anonymouses Isabel Shan. That'll be a new thing that we do.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 12:07John Green?

  Now, now every anonymous is named Isabel for the rest of all time, not just in this podcast, but in all podcasts. It's a great name. All right. I got a question for you from Abby. Says, I'm 17 years old and I'm at the end of my senior year of high school. We get so many questions like this, Shan. And I've never been in a relationship so far, a romantic relationship. However, I am going to college this fall and I'm interested in dating. Do you have any advice on how to meet people? I'm hoping it will happen organically as I don't really want to do the online thing. I also want to stay focused on school and taking care of myself. Thank you for continually adding good stuff to the world. Almost an adult despite the anagram. Abby. Wait, is that an anagram? Confused. Baby, it anagrams to baby. That's, that's good, Abby. It took me a second, but Abby anagrams to baby.

• 12:50John Green?

  Anyway, Abby wants to date but doesn't know how. We get a lot of questions like this from people who are not just in their teens, but in their twenties, who have never been in romantic relationships and are interested in them, but don't know how to pursue them. And I have no idea what to tell them, but maybe you do.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Abby or baby? I feel like Abby, baby Abby answered the question in the question there.

• 13:14John Green?

  Oh.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  You have to live, right? And you've already outlined exactly how you want to live. So do that. So rather than setting an intention to date, set an intention to take workout classes, go to wellness classes, whatever is offered on campus. If I'm interpreting that correctly, they're going away to college.

• 13:30John Green?

  Yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Put yourself in, throw yourself into your hobbies, into your values, into your passions, and look up while you're doing it, right? Like, if there's this going on your phone, look up, connect, talk to people, and talk about being single. I think it's a really huge one that people don't do is, people don't know that you're looking until you tell them that you're looking, right? And I actually think it's an advantage in many cases to be new at something. The beginner's mindset is what everybody should have for their entire life. And sometimes we get to the been there, done that phase, or we get a little jaded. So I love the sort of eyes wide openness. And I think it's quite positive and not abnormal at all. In terms of the standard deviation, most people start dating around 15, 16 years old. You're 17, 18.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Like, you're only a couple standard deviations off of what the average is. So you're right in there. So don't feel like you're too late. Just feel like you're right on time, and you already have all the answers. So I can't wait to hear how your freshman year went.

• 14:27John Green?

  My first serious romantic relationship was in college, and we actually met on the internet, but it was way before meeting on the internet was cool, Shan. It was 1992. It was, the internet was, was green letters on a black screen. And we had never seen pictures of each other. And I drove from my college in Ohio to Baltimore, Maryland to meet her. And then we were in love for many years.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Okay, so what did you, where did you meet online then?

• 14:55John Green?

  On CompuServe, back in the old, old days, like on a bulletin board for teenagers on CompuServe.

• 15:02John Green?

  Isn't that weird?

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's only just because of the, you don't know if that's a Samoan.

• 15:10John Green?

  Didn't know, I knew, I mean, we talked on the phone before.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Okay, so yeah, you did a little bit of catfishing experimentation.

• 15:17John Green?

  A little bit, but I mean, still, we could have been very different from how we were describing ourselves. Because like I said, no pictures exchanged, very little information about each other. I just, but I really felt connected to her and I really thought she was really, really cool and interesting. And this was back when phone calls cost 10 cents a minute. So it was no small matter to, to engage in a long distance phone call. And yeah, so that's, that's how I met my, my first partner. But I met, I met my most recent partner, my wife of 20 years.

• 15:47John Green?

  Through a boxing class, not even my boxing class, but I was, I was dating someone who was a boxer. And her sparring partner, turns out I went to high school with. And we all, the three of us went out to brunch together. And then my girlfriend moved, moved out of the country and we broke up because she moved out of the country. And like six months later, Sarah and I reconnected and eventually, after a long period of emailing, fell in love. So you never know, it happens all kinds of ways.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  What a beautiful story. Is Sarah and your ex still friends?

• 16:23John Green?

  No, they were never really friends. They were just sparring partners, which is not really a friendship. In fact, if anything, it's kind of an enemy ship. But no, my, my, my ex is doing great and, and has, has a great life and everything and every, you know, it all, it all worked out for everybody. But she was ready to move abroad and I think also probably ready to say goodbye to me. I'm a, I'm a tough person to date, Chan, if we're being honest. I'm a lot, I'm a little, I'm just, I'm, I'm a lot. I have, I have, I'm, I was, especially then, I was very heavy on the needs. I was not an easy partner. I had, I had some growing up to do for sure.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  But to your credit, you were also there supporting their passion, you know? And you were dating women who fought, which is very kick ass and progressive.

• 17:09John Green?

  I still, my, my, my wife is still a boxer. She's very good. My son is also a very good boxer. Um, I've got some, I'm the, I'm the, of everybody in the family, it's me and Alice just cowering. Um, and everybody else is.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  And see, that's also, you know, kind of going back to baby's question, right? It's making sure that you just throw yourself into the things that you're passionate about or things that you're interested in, and you never know. I'm also a very fan of dating within the, like, that's a big debate sometimes of, do you date a friend's, you know, an ex's friend? You know, birds of a feather flock together, so if you were attracted to your ex, it's likely that you would be attracted to people who are surrounding them. And if anything, it's a compliment to your ex. Like, I thought you were great and wonderful. There was a couple of points that just didn't really make us align, but overall, the heart of who you are is good, and I think you picked good people, like me. So I'm gonna pick someone else that you picked. Makes sense.

• 18:01John Green?

  That's great. And I like the idea of having healthy breakups. I've never had one of myself, but I've heard about them a lot.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  Well, you and your ex are still in contact, so you guys figured it out.

• 18:12John Green?

  Oh, yeah. No, I mean, we're like Facebook friends. We keep track of each other. I know that she's doing good. But yeah, we figured it out. And, yeah, that's funny, though. Let's ask, I want to ask a question about a healthy breakup, actually, since we're on the topic. This question is from Izzy, who writes, "Dear John and Shan, I recently went through my first healthy breakup ever. Woo-hoo, I guess, maybe, anyway, that fateful night, which was also my birthday, another story. I heeded John's boss's advice and watched the movie Harvey. I'm a big fan of this movie Harvey that my boss told me to watch once when I was having a, what we used to call a nervous breakdown, and it really, like, changed my life. Anyway, I enjoyed it, but it wasn't quite as existential as I feared. But are there any other breakup remedies or routines you can recommend that, even

• 18:57John Green?

  if it's dubious? Being a healthy, loving breakup between two adults means that I'm in uncharted territory. Thank you, Izzy." What are your, do you have any breakup routines or remedies or recommendations?

• 19:07Speaker 02

  I do, but you gotta give the, because for anybody who, for anybody who doesn't know what the Harvey remedy was, what's the TLDR of that?

• 19:14John Green?

  Okay, so, it's not really a remedy, but there's this movie Harvey. It was made in 1950. It was written by a woman named Mary Chase, and it's about a guy named Elwood P. Dowd, who's an alcoholic who sees a six-foot-tall, invisible, white rabbit who's his best friend, and his name is Harvey. And he talks to Harvey all the time, and he says all kinds of really wise, helpful things, like he says, "My mother used to tell me, in this world, Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant. For years, I was smart. I recommend pleasant." And all kinds of wise things like that. He also says, nobody ever brings anything small into a bar. But it's just, I think what I found so helpful about it and find so helpful about it is that it's a movie about a person who's mentally ill. And I

• 19:56John Green?

  have, you know, pretty serious mental illnesses. It's a movie about somebody who's clearly mentally ill, but who is also a valued and productive member of his social order. And that these things aren't mutually exclusive, that you can have a rich and full life and deep relationships while also living with mental illness. And even though that movie is almost 80 years old now, I found it to be very revolutionary in that sense.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  I love, it sounds so be, I have to actually, I love, I've been watched, I've watched two great movies this week, and I'm on a mission to try to continue that trend. So I'm gonna add that.

• 20:27John Green?

  You saw, you saw the Minecraft movie?

• 20:29Speaker 02

  I didn't, I really should, with the kids my age.

• 20:31John Green?

  Wait, what were the two?

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Sinners and Magazine Dreams.

• 20:35John Green?

  Oh, Sinners was great. I haven't seen Magazine Dreams, but Sinners was amazing.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  I loved Magazine Dreams. I thought it was just such a, it was the kind of movie where you watch where you're reminded that some people hold so much sadness that it's our responsibility to pick up some of it for them. Like, it's a sad movie. Like, you're just watching a really, just overall, just burdensomely sad life. And Tom Cruise does such a good job acting in it. And it just made me kind of reflect on all the people that I know who I'm like, oh, like, how can I pick up a little bit of, of that for them? Because it was, it was heavy. So it's a heavy watch, but maybe Harvey is too.

• 21:11John Green?

  Yeah, I mean, I think the hardest thing about going through sadness, or going through the, the griefy, difficult, scary parts of life is going through them alone, or feeling like you have to go through them alone, or feeling like you're alone in that feeling, and you're alone in that feeling because nobody else is going through what you're going through. Like, somebody, I can't remember who, once said, you know, like, when your friend dies, you're on planet, my friend died, and everyone else is on planet Earth. And you feel so isolated and separated from the rest of humanity. So if somebody can, so if somebody can pick up that, um, a little bit of that sadness for you and carry it with you, it does make a big difference.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  That actually would be a bit of my advice. I was gonna give like the heady advice because I'm, I'm good at those things. But Catherine Woodward has a book that's called Conscious Uncoupling, which was like the trendy thing, you know, when that couple broke up.

• 22:01John Green?

  Gwyneth Paltrow, I believe, she consciously uncoupled.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Yes, but it's a genius formula and it takes you through like five different distinct stages. And the first stage is the negative bond. And essentially that is when you first get into a relationship with somebody, you go through positive disillusionment where you have to ramp up all the positives and minimize the negatives in order to justify to your brain, like, well, why am I choosing this human over all others? And the negative bond is the opposite, where you have to ramp up the negatives and really like sort of reduce the positives. And this can be really difficult in today's day and age because social media is every human being's highlight reel of awesomeness. So when you're trying to justify a breakup and you still have access to that person's social media and you're just seeing how great they are and how much fun they're having

• 22:48Speaker 02

  or how hot they look, um, it's difficult to create the negative bond. So one thing that I talked about my newsletter this week, actually, is the importance of breakup buddies, which distinct friendship where you'd connect with somebody else who just wants to talk about the breakup because the average person probably doesn't and their bandwidth for doing so is like very slim. So if they're going through a breakup, they're like, great, I'll dump on you, you dump on me, we'll call each other every day, we'll obsess over these like negative parts, I'll remind you why this person's crap, you remind me why they're crap. The hard thing about this relationship sometimes is that you often get out of the negative bond at different phases and so then you have to break up with your breakup buddy or your breakup buddy breaks up with you, which can come its own heartbreak in itself.

• 23:33John Green?

  Sure.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Uh, that can be to your point about not going through the loan. I think that that's a really powerful strategy. Although this wasn't really a question because this person was like, I did it right. So we just need to know what you did.

• 23:44John Green?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Question back to you and congratulations.

• 23:47John Green?

  That's a great, yeah, exactly. Congratulations on a healthy breakup. That's no easy, that's no easy task. That reminds me, Shan, that today's podcast is brought to you by your breakup buddy. Your breakup buddy, you may have to break up with them.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Today's podcast is also brought to you by Anonymous, whose name is now Isabel.

• 24:04John Green?

  Congratulations, Anonymous. You, uh, you're no longer anonymous. All right, Shan, I got a question for you from Katie, who writes, Dear Shan and John, my boyfriend and I are moving in together in about a month and we're so excited. However, we have wildly different aesthetics. He said I could take the lead on picking things out for the apartment, but how do I go with that? Like, I have a very cottage floral critter kind of decor style and he likes futuristic neon sign type decor. Do you have any advice on how to merge these things? Or do we end up having something cohesive that looks like a grandma's house themed nightclub? Do I just slowly buy things I like and wait for him to say something? Are we supposed to stifle our whimsy and becomes adults with a neutral home? Everyone wants an invite to the cot, to the, to the club cottage, Katie.

• 24:49John Green?

  Now, I went through this a little bit, Shan. I don't know if you've ever been through something similar, but when I, when Sarah and I got married, I mean, first off, when Sarah and I met, so Sarah is a curator of contemporary art. When Sarah and I met, I had nothing on my walls. I had blank walls. I didn't even know that you could put something on your walls. I didn't know that regular people could own art. I didn't know that there was art made by students available at student art fairs for like $20. I didn't know any of that, right? And so I had nothing on my walls and I lived on a futon. And underneath the futon was all of my unpaid bills. That was kind of the vibe to give you a sense of my aesthetic. Then I met Sarah and Sarah had all of this beautiful art in her, in her apartment. And like she, you know, had a, had a bed with a proper, uh, something called a duvet

• 25:34John Green?

  that I'd never even heard of before. I thought you just had blankets and, uh, or even maybe a comforter if you were, if you were fancy, but you certainly didn't have a duvet, which, which ends in a T. And, uh, I was completely astonished by all of this, all of this fanciness, even though like it wasn't expensive. It was just like attentive, I guess. And what happened was that slowly Sarah taught me to have a better aesthetic, specifically hers. So that's how we did it.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  I love that. And this might, because you, did you, was there any pushback from you of like, no, white walls and futon on the ground is where it's at?

• 26:11John Green?

  No.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Like, I don't know, and I don't care.

• 26:13John Green?

  I don't think I had as strong an opinion as Katie's partner does about like, neon signs and futuristic design. I did always like clean lines. Like, I've always liked, you know, straight, clean lines. Like, you can see in the background here, for those of you watching on Patreon, my windows, you know, they have, they have straight, clean. I like, I like a straight, clean line. I like glass, like a lot of glass. I like to be able to see outside. But other than that, I know I didn't have strong opinions when we met, but now I do. Like, now I have an aesthetic. It's just that I really think that like Sarah kind of taught it to me.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  So you guys align most of the time, basically?

• 26:54John Green?

  Now we align.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  She's like, me too. You're like, me too. And then she's like, exactly.

• 26:58John Green?

  Yeah, although sometimes I pick out art that she wouldn't pick out, and she picks out art that I wouldn't pick out. But, but we just kind of make space for each other in that way. Like, I have my, I do have my space in the sense that like, there are spots in the house where I work that are more likely to have like art that I like. Like, there's a Frank Walter painting behind me, the Antiquin painter who painted very small, like he often would paint the back of a cigarette pack. And I really, really like his art. He would make these beautiful tiny landscapes. And, you know, so I, that's the kind of thing that I, I tend to like, is like tiny little paintings. And then Sarah tends to like bigger stuff. But in general, no, our, it lines up well enough that we're both able to, to, to, to work with each other, I guess.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  This is the benefit of asking this question to people who've lived a little bit longer. One of the ahas I had recently about relationships is that you just don't realize, until a little bit later, that so many of the things that you made into an issue in the early stages that aren't actually a part of your core values of what actually matter in partnership, will just work itself out with time, right? Like, I've lived in, how many places, my husband, maybe five or six places. And now, we live in a spot where I have my own office that's completely differently styled than his. He has his own spaces completely different styled than mine. Like, they're not even. Cousins and that's okay, but when we first moved into, you know, we lived in a studio apartment together for a second and

• 28:27Speaker 02

  there's so much different compromises that you have to make and it's short term pain for long term gain. So we actually had like neon signs and then rugs on the ground, like that was his thing, like it was like kind of like throws as art, which I thought was so funny. And you just have a mixed mash of a bunch of different elements and personalities. Because what's most important is that somebody feels like this is their home. Like that's what it's actually the value system. And then you'll grow hopefully into bigger spaces where you can have that feeling and also completely lean into your aesthetic. But in the beginning, what really matters is, I mean, a clean home. Let's just be clear about that. There's certain things you probably shouldn't be compromising on, but

• 29:07Speaker 02

  I think aesthetic and vibes is kind of one of those where it's like give each other whatever you can afford, a corner, a wall, a section, a drawer. You just have to know that somewhere you get to live life your way and somebody accepts and embraces you because of that.

• 29:20John Green?

  I think it's a really good point, like overwhelmingly, the most important thing in my experience is is that sharing of core values or that being able to form core values that you can share together over the course of many years. I think that is super, super important.

• 29:36John Green?

  I also think though that to some extent, there has to be a making space for the other person. You know, like that's, that's part of sharing, sharing space with someone is making space for them. So I'll give you one example, like I, I do that very ADHD thing where I um leave clothes that are sort of half dirty or half worn um on, on a chair or something. You know, in case I need to wear them again, in case I decide that they're still, they're still good for tomorrow. Sarah would never do that, like that would never enter Sarah's imagination. But she makes space for me to do it as long as, as long as it's in a sort of like controlled way.

• 30:17John Green?

  You know, it doesn't like spread across the entire floor, but if it's in a controlled way, it's okay. And I think she, she actually calls it tin pan alley. That's what she calls it, you know, the alley by my bed where like there's books that pile up. But right now my backpack's there and there's some shoes there and there's a shirt that I might wear later tonight if we go out, you know, things like that. But, um, but I think you, you do have to make space for somebody's way of living, which part of which is aesthetics and part of which is just like their way of living, which can be, it takes some adjusting for sure. But in general, I find that like, if you can find a way toward mutual generosity, a way toward, you know, being generous with the person, assuming the best in them, um, then, then it's a lot less annoying than it would otherwise be.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Can I have another thought, John, based on what you said, I think is important. Michelle Obama, on her podcast, said that hers and Barack's relationship, they regard it like a basketball team. When you're on a basketball team, there's not necessarily like a leader and a follower, and everybody has to play every position, right? The point guard has to be able to shoot free throws and three points and dunk if need be. But at the same time, people know where their strengths are. You know who is the best rebounder, right? You know who's the best defender. So I do think you do have to incorporate sort of that teamwork element, but you should also know who is the Sarah and who's the John, right? So if you spend more time looking at, you know, interior design magazines

• 31:43Speaker 02

  and you go to antique shops on the weekend, like you're actually investing the time in it, your partner does have to respect that, hey, like, this is your strength, like, this is your area to shine. I definitely am not, not on the court with you, but I know who to pass the ball to.

• 31:58John Green?

  Right. Yeah, I like that metaphor a lot. One of the metaphors that we use sometimes is that, like, we've almost, we, we try to think of the relationship as a, as, as an object that requires maintenance, whether that's a car or a home or whatever, that we have to share and that has to fit both of us, you know, it has to make room for both of us. So sometimes we talk about it as a Winnebago, um, like a, you know, RV that we have to maintain and like, deal with. And that partly means like, you know, you got to pump out the sewage, like, it's not always pleasant dealing, dealing with it. But like, you have, if you don't deal with it, if you don't do the maintenance, like, you don't have a good Winnebago. And, um, and, um, but I like that, I like, anything that

• 32:40John Green?

  puts you on the same team, I think is really a good metaphor, because that's what it is in the end. You have to be on a team. And that doesn't just go for romantic relationships, right? That's any core relationship. If you have a relationship with your roommate, like, I had a roommate for six years before I Met Sarah and we moved in together and you know, my relationship with that roommate was super, super close. I mean, we're still best friends, but like we were, you know, incredibly, incredibly close and we had to make space for each other as part of that. We had to be on the same team together. All right, let me ask you one more question before we get to the all important news from AFC Wimbledon, my favorite fourth tier English soccer team, Shan. I realized by the way, that I didn't say your last name earlier, which makes, which makes it impossible for people to Google you. So I'm going to say your last name now.

• 33:23Speaker 02

  Totally fine though. Do you know what? Actually, I'm kind of going through a little bit of a crisis on this.

• 33:28John Green?

  Oh, boy. Tell me about it.

• 33:29Speaker 02

  About that. Well, my name is, stage name is Shan Boodram.

• 33:34John Green?

  Right.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  And that's my maiden name, but I'm married. I've been married now for seven years and my last name is Brady. I have two kids and I've been with my husband for 10 years. We work together. He is like, I could tear up at any moment just thinking about my partner, my lover. And I, I love that because it fuels the work that I do and allows me to feel very confident about asking people to devote their time and to learn about it and to give themselves to this area because it can give back so much to you. So I feel so deeply about my partner. And if I'm very honest, because we're enough into the podcast now where hopefully people in my family don't listen to this, but you know, my family, it's, they haven't been, they're not as present or supportive as, you know, my, my husband is. So kind

• 34:19Speaker 02

  of like, why am I continuing to carry on and champion this last name where the last name of my kids and my partner and my legal last name, you know, that that's one that, I, so I'm just sort of in this conflicting, so I'm just kind of going by Shan for now. They're both mean last names. Shan B, you know?

• 34:37John Green?

  Yeah, they're both, we'll stick with Shan. That's great. I have a friend who just goes by Cree, who acted in the Turtles All the Way Down movie. And when I asked Cree what last name I should use for them, they were like, uh, none. I was like, fair enough. Totally.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  Well, what advice would you give to me?

• 34:55John Green?

  I mean, that's a tough one. Sarah kind of regrets taking my name. I don't know if regrets is a strong word, but I think she, I mean professionally, she's known as Sarah Yerestreen. So she's known by her like maiden name and, and, and my name. She has a very, she has a very close relationship with her parents. So I think it's a little different on that level and that probably is different. I would recommend that you go with the name that feels real to you and not worry too much about the, um, whatever the professional implications are because like the world will get over that very quickly.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  Thank you. Thank you for that.

• 35:32John Green?

  All right. One last question before we, I get to tell you about my fourth tier English soccer team. It's a sad one. This has been kind of a, you know, we've had some, we've had some happy, we've had some happy questions. We've had some sad questions. This is the saddest question of them all. It's about a dog. It's from Chloe. Dear John and Shan, longtime listener, first time writer. I have a bit of a sad one today. I'd really love some advice. At the beginning of last year, I ended a nine-year relationship. We sold our house and he ended up keeping our dog, Sully. Sully is a two-year-old miniature schnauzer and the love of my absolute life and losing him is the worst thing to ever happen to me and honestly destroyed me. I officially handed him over in October and I haven't seen him since and I think of him every day and regret not fighting harder to keep him. Most days I get by okay, but then there are nights when it gets to me and I often dream of

• 36:15John Green?

  him. Um, I'd love some advice on how to deal with what feels like the grief of a pet that's very much still alive. Thank you, Chloe. Before Shan answers, I would just say that like the grief, that's exactly, you've identified exactly what it is to me, which is grief. It's a sense of loss and it's a profound loss and it's a loss that it sounds like you can't rectify in any, you know, in any way because it just doesn't seem like you can have a relationship with this person and that means that you, right now you can't have a relationship with the dog either. Sometimes I think what we need to hear, what I need to hear anyway, is that like the grief is, the grief is the correct response, you know, that like sadness is the correct response to that situation and that it's absolutely okay to feel grief-stricken.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Interestingly, this is a topic that is coming up on my podcast. I talk about sex and relationships, but I spoke with the singer Alessia Cara, who is often consumed by a feeling of grief and not just for she's lost, but the idea of the potential of the fact that we are all going to lose everything. But I've been talking about it a lot and asking people just about how they feel or, you know, what has been some of the helpful, you know, things that people have said to them in a time of grief. And what you just said reminded me of something that stuck out to me that I will say to other people when they're grieving, and that is, you don't have to get over this.

• 37:36John Green?

  Right. There is that urge to like, get over it and to be past it and to be on the other side of something. And that's just not the right, that's just not how it is. You don't necessarily get on the other side of it. I mean, I lost a close friend of mine when I was in high school and I never got over it. I'm still not over it. You know, like, I get older and she doesn't get to know what it's like to be 47. She doesn't get to know what it's like to have two kids. Like, she doesn't get to, and that is, that remains sad. That doesn't stop being sad. Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Let's talk about soccer.

• 38:13John Green?

  Let's talk about soccer. Shan, I'm a big fourth tier English soccer fan. I've got a team. It's called AFC Wimbledon. I love them so much. I hope that you love something stupid and meaningless, the way that I love AFC Wimbledon. I hope that there's something in your life that's beautiful and means nothing, except that you give it meaning. Because that is what I have in AFC Wimbledon. And they reached the end of the season, Shan, and they had to win or tie their last game to make it into the playoffs. The fourth through seventh teams go into a playoff, and then one of them emerges from that playoff and gets to go up to the third tier of English soccer. And that's always been my real dream, Shan, is to be a fan of a third tier English soccer team. So in England, you can go up or down the leagues, you know, you can get promoted or relegated. And we were good this

• 38:58John Green?

  year, but were we good enough to make the playoffs? Well, it all came down to the last day, and we had to win or tie against Grimsby Town. I know what you're saying. Sounds like Grimsby Town is a made up place, but no, it's a real place in England. It's on the coast. They have, they're big fans of fish. And the team gave out 2,000 blow up fish before the game. So all these kids were like hitting each other with their, with their, with their inflatable fishes.

• 39:22John Green?

  Before the game, it was high, high drama. Grimsby needed to win the game in order to make the playoffs. We needed to win or tie. It was a very tense first half. Nothing happened, no goals. A couple of good saves by our brilliant, lovely goalkeeper, Owen Goodman, the sweetest man I've ever met, I think. And the great thing about fourth year English soccer, by the way, Shan, is that you can be friends with the players. Anyway, make it to the second half. And a little bit of context here, there's this fellow who plays on our team named Sam Hutchinson. He's like 45 years old. He's the oldest professional soccer player in the world. He, he calls himself an old warhorse and he never scores goals. One thing about this guy, he's not going to score a goal. He hasn't scored a goal in three years. He never scores. Well, he scored.

• 40:07John Green?

  He scored for us in the, this early in the second half. We held on to that one no lead. We made the playoffs. Now we get to play Notts County in the playoffs. If we win that game, we get to play at Wembley in front of 80,000 people, England's national soccer stadium. I'll be there. No pressure, but you, you're welcome. The whole world is welcome. It's going to be incredible if we make it, but we've got to win these two games against Notts County. So that's the situation. AFC Wimbledon stunningly, wondrously in the playoffs, in lead two, on their way, if they win this game, that if they beat Notts County on their way to Wembley.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Wow. How exhilarating.

• 40:42John Green?

  Oh my God. I can't even tell you. I watched the second half from behind the couch. That's how stressed out I was. I was literally hiding behind the couch, listening to the commentary, getting text messages from all my Wimbledon supporting friends, all of us terrified together, but it was so exhilarating. And then when we finally won, I had, I had to go to, I had to go pick up the garden plants with my mom. And I was like shaking and my mother was like, are you all right? And I was like, yeah, mom, I'm great. I'm great. Everything is fine. I just had so much adrenaline flowing through me, Shan. It was incredible, the feeling.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  This actually makes me think of the last question about death and I don't have a thing like that, that I just love that's senseless and outside of me. And I did for a briefest of moments, I'm from Toronto and the Toronto Raptors made playoffs, second round, think of the Year was like two thousand thirteen or fourteen. It could have been a little bit before that. But I was so invested in this. And when they lost, I was like, I am never going through this again. I will never tie so much emotional depth to a thing I have no control over. I don't reap the benefits. Like, I just get all the pain. And you're here to feel, you're here to experience, you're here to express, you're here to grieve,

• 41:57Speaker 02

  you're here to love, you're here to have orgasms and you're here to experience great pain. So I think the things that allow you to do that, while you can get to kind of know in the back of your mind that it's just for funsies, I think that sounds really cool.

• 42:10John Green?

  Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, it is a little weird to tie the quality of your weekend to the exploits of twenty four year old boys who live, you know, an ocean away from you and all that stuff. But but I think it's it's more that, it's more, it's the purity of feeling, it's the knowledge that we are here to be, not just to feel all that stuff, but we're here, we're here to feel all of that stuff and to feel lots of it in community, you know, to feel, to feel the togetherness in in those big experiences. And that's something that Wimbledon gives me that I'm very grateful for. So we always talk about it at the end of the podcast here. We don't have any news from Mars this week, unfortunately. But Hank will be back next week with plenty of news from Mars. It'll be, it'll be thrilling. I mean, I'm sure Mars has been up to things that we can't even imagine without Hank.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Well, is it appropriate for me to say congratulations to you?

• 42:57John Green?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. Are you kidding? I kicked every ball.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  Congrats, dude, great. And good luck.

• 43:03John Green?

  Thank you. I appreciate it. I'll let you know how it goes. Fingers crossed for the playoffs, but at least we're in them. At least we're in it with a chance. Like, that feeling that hope is still alive is such a powerful, powerful feeling. It's a reminder that like, hope is always still alive. Like, hope is not always alive in football, but it is always alive in the world. And so, yeah, it was, it was a pretty magical feeling. I'm not gonna lie. Well, Shan, thank you so much for being part of, first off, for being part of Crash Course Sex Ed. It's such an extraordinary series. I'm so proud of it. And I'm so proud of the team that works on it with you. And I think that y'all have just done an amazing job. If you haven't seen the series, please check it out. It's at Crash, youtube.com/crashcourse. But also, thank you for being my co-host today. It's been really fun and you're full of great wisdom.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm actually wearing a shirt that said, "I haven't lost my virginity because I never lose." And I'll pass this on to you as maybe a good luck charm, but this is a nod to Crash Course. We wear tons of, you know, great shirts. And to the point you just made, I want to say a huge thank you to all, everybody, the writers, the animators, the editors. And what a phenomenal project and a dream come true to be a part of and a legacy project that I feel grateful to be a small speck of a contribution because the ocean that Crash Course provided is just so immense and incredible. So shout out to the team, shout out to your team, and shout out to you. And thanks to everybody who watched.

• 44:27John Green?

  That's lovely of you to say. And it's so true that, you know, Crash Course, a lot of times the hosts get all the credit and the hosts are not the main characters of Crash Course. I can say that as a host. You know, there's so many people who work hard on Crash Course from curriculum consultants to writers to animators to editors. And it's just an extraordinary team and they do awesome work. And I'm really, really proud to make stuff with them.

• 44:51Speaker 03

  Dear Hank and John is edited by Chris and Kiko. We're mixed by Joseph Tuna Menish. Our marketing specialist is Brooke Shotwell. We are produced by Rosyana Hoss-Rohas and Hannah West. Our executive producer is Seth Radley. Our editorial assistant is Deboki Chakravarti. And the music that you're hearing now and at the beginning of the podcast is by the great Gonna Rolla. And as we say in my hometown, don't forget to be awesome.

• 45:11John Green?

  Shan, thank you so much. That was so fun.