Some Friendships Need to Go with Issa Rae

Issa Rae is an acclaimed actor, producer, writer, and restauranteur—but she’s also a student of modern adult friendships. She joins Michelle and Craig to answer a question from a listener who is struggling with the unexpected end of a long-term friendship. Issa asks why male friendships are so weird and shares lessons from a friendship falling out. Michelle offers lessons on how to maintain connections throughout life, and Craig takes a stand for the fellas – who, Issa and Michelle claim, have no idea how to use emojis to express actual emotion. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Michelle Obama?

  Like the crisis would require an emergency session.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 0:03Michelle Obama?

  Like, somebody's on a train.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, flying.

• 0:06Michelle Obama?

  You know, there's, there's movement.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:08Michelle Obama?

  And you gotta deal with the crisis. Yeah, I was like, we're coming, we're coming, it's a crisis.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house, bringing her favorite snack. Like, this is, took off work.

• 0:21Craig Robinson?

  That is a script. That is something that you could write on television.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Played and doing a text, like, you know, she not gonna be good. Like, she is, she doesn't need this right now, you know?

• 0:31Michelle Obama?

  Right, right.

• 0:32Craig Robinson?

  You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like, damn.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:36Craig Robinson?

  That's it.

• 0:37Michelle Obama?

  Not a crisis. Honestly, not a crisis.

• 0:40Craig Robinson?

  Sorry.

• 0:41Speaker 01

  Send the dog a boogie.

• 0:43Michelle Obama?

  Or dude, I didn't know you had a dog.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog?

• 0:47Craig Robinson?

  Okay, we are, we are here, man.

• 0:56Craig Robinson?

  This episode is brought to you by Pine Sol and Theraplu. Hey.

• 1:02Michelle Obama?

  Well, hi again, you. It's you again. Oh, I like your, is that pink?

• 1:08Craig Robinson?

  It's, uh, my wife called it coral, but it could be pink.

• 1:11Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, it is coral, and it's a little pleated. Well, this is, this is breaking out of the, you know, basketball thing.

• 1:19Craig Robinson?

  Watch out now.

• 1:19Michelle Obama?

  And that little collar? Okay, I see you, Craig Robinson.

• 1:24Craig Robinson?

  I am, uh, I'm thrilled that you like my clothes.

• 1:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, no.

• 1:27Craig Robinson?

  See, you guys, it's hard being this one's brother. I don't have enough closet space.

• 1:33Michelle Obama?

  You know, you don't even need much closet space. But, you know, you stepping out, you stepping out.

• 1:39Craig Robinson?

  Thank you.

• 1:40Michelle Obama?

  What's new and exciting?

• 1:42Craig Robinson?

  Well, I gotta tell you, while we're out here in LA, Rivian hooked me up with a vehicle to tool around in. And since you won't be able to drive one, since you don't,

• 1:52Michelle Obama?

  I, I, I might. I might, no, no, I'm starting to drive.

• 1:56Craig Robinson?

  Really?

• 1:56Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I can drive.

• 1:57Craig Robinson?

  How's that? How, how's the Secret Service letting you drive?

• 2:00Michelle Obama?

  Well, it's a secret. You, you could take me for a spin.

• 2:03Craig Robinson?

  They'll let me take you for a spin?

• 2:04Michelle Obama?

  Don't you remember when I came to visit you in Milwaukee? And the boys wanted me to pick them up from school? And we did.

• 2:13Craig Robinson?

  And you tooled up in a motorcade to their school?

• 2:16Michelle Obama?

  In the pickup line. They were just like, nice. I was like, yeah.

• 2:21Craig Robinson?

  Four cars deep in the pickup line.

• 2:24Michelle Obama?

  That was so much fun. I'm sure their friends are like, what the heck?

• 2:29Craig Robinson?

  Oh, and then you roll down the window and it's you. They're like, meh.

• 2:33Michelle Obama?

  I'm like, get in and don't touch the guns.

• 2:38Craig Robinson?

  I do remember that.

• 2:42Michelle Obama?

  Oh, my goodness. But so we're talking about friendship today.

• 2:48Craig Robinson?

  Yeah. And people know by now that you and I are like, have been best friends since you were born.

• 2:54Michelle Obama?

  Yep, because it couldn't happen before then.

• 2:56Craig Robinson?

  No, it could not happen before then. But my first question to you is, how many of your friends now were your friends when you were little?

• 3:08Michelle Obama?

  Like the little, little, I don't keep up, don't get a chance to keep up with the folks from little, little time. Although, as folks know, mom recently passed and a lot of people came to the funeral. And two of my girl, girls from grammar school, the Gores, Pam and Nikki, and they had a little sister.

• 3:31Craig Robinson?

  Gina.

• 3:31Michelle Obama?

  Gina, but they came to the funeral. And it was funny, we got a quick second to talk, but it was almost like I hadn't, I hadn't missed a minute with them. But so we vowed to keep, to keep in touch. But outside of childhood, I can say that I have at least, almost at least one good friend or more from every aspect of my life.

• 3:59Craig Robinson?

  Okay.

• 3:59Michelle Obama?

  So what I found is like, one of, you know, my best friend roommate, who you know, Angela from Princeton, she was my roommate, she's my girl, always talked to her. From law school, my friend Verna, just went to her house for lunch just the other day. She's in DC, you know, and then there are my mom friends, because as I got married. But then even before then, that was Pam, she was more my professional friend when I was, when, when we were grown up. And had jobs at law firms and you know, I could go on and on like that. And the other thing I made a point of, because one of the things that you said when Barack won

• 4:41Michelle Obama?

  and we got into the White House, you know, one of the things we were like, no new friends. That's it. And I was like, ah, you know.

• 4:49Craig Robinson?

  I did say that.

• 4:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, you were kind of joking, but it was important for me in the normalcy of my life to be able to, to, or to keep my life normal, even in those unusual circumstances, to continue to expand my friendships. So that's a long answer to say, yeah, I do. I, I, I keep making friends and I keep up with my friends.

• 5:12Craig Robinson?

  Right. And, and this today's show is talking about differences with those friends. And falling out of friendship with, with, with good friends. And, um, and I'm just, I'm just thinking, see, guys are a little different. Guys are, their friendships are more transactional, right?

• 5:32Michelle Obama?

  What do you mean by that?

• 5:32Craig Robinson?

  Well, well, what I mean is after sort of grammar school and high school, where you're sort of friends with people because you're developing your group and your personality and your character. Most of the time after that, you make friends out of the necessity of wanting to get something done, whether it's a business idea, a business venture, a sporting event. You've got four tickets to a game and your significant other doesn't want to go. So you, all right, I'm gonna take three friends.

• 6:05Michelle Obama?

  It's like, okay, let's be friends. Come to the game with me.

• 6:08Craig Robinson?

  Guys do that. Guys.

• 6:09Michelle Obama?

  That's why y'all are broken.

• 6:10Craig Robinson?

  We are not broken, but, but we, we, we don't go as deep.

• 6:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 6:18Craig Robinson?

  So if something happens, we're not as hurt.

• 6:23Michelle Obama?

  Is that, are you? Is that what men, men, y'all scared? Is that what goes on all the time?

• 6:27Craig Robinson?

  Nobody said it was scared. It's just a.

• 6:29Michelle Obama?

  I don't want my feelings hurt, so I don't, I can't know you.

• 6:32Craig Robinson?

  It's a, it's just a function of how we socialize with each other. And, and like you, I have all of my friends I could not talk to in a year, or I could talk to every week, and the relationship is mostly the same.

• 6:52Michelle Obama?

  That's because y'all don't talk about nothing.

• 6:54Craig Robinson?

  Well, we don't. You're right about that. It's, it's, it's hard to go deep. You, you know when we go deep? Is when it's too late.

• 7:04Michelle Obama?

  Deathbed. It's like, woo.

• 7:06Craig Robinson?

  Or, you know.

• 7:06Michelle Obama?

  Bubba, I wish I had asked him about his family.

• 7:09Craig Robinson?

  We're, we're getting a divorce.

• 7:10Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah. And then there's some tragedy. It's like, why didn't you say anything?

• 7:14Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, I didn't say anything because I didn't want to burden you and I, I was gonna thug through it myself.

• 7:21Craig Robinson?

  But today's show, we're gonna talk about, you know, sort of falling out of friendship with close friends and.

• 7:27Michelle Obama?

  We are company.

• 7:28Craig Robinson?

  We do have company, and I can't tell you how excited I am for this company because as I told her in the green room, I didn't watch rom-com-ish type shows. And my wife said, you gotta watch This Insecure. And I'm like, I'm not watching it. And she said, you gotta watch it, it's good. And I said, I'm not watching it. And, and, and she said, you're, you're gonna like it. I said, I'm not gonna like it.

• 7:59Craig Robinson?

  She made me watch the first two episodes back to back because she was like on episode four. I was, I watched the first one and I was like, all right, it's not bad. I watched the second one and then I watched the third and the fourth because I was only gonna watch the first two. And I just fell in love with this actress who then I had to do a little research and I found out she was a writer and she was now getting into the restaurant business and just an entrepreneur and a, and a community folk, you know?

• 8:32Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Craig Robinson?

  Kinda like y'all.

• 8:34Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 8:34Craig Robinson?

  Just in the community, doing stuff for black folks.

• 8:37Michelle Obama?

  Giving it, giving it back.

• 8:38Craig Robinson?

  Giving it back and just so supremely talented. Let's bring on Issa Rae.

• 8:44Michelle Obama?

  Issa, watch him, watch him.

• 8:50Michelle Obama?

  Oh, so happy to have you here.

• 8:57Michelle Obama?

  Well, welcome to the table.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. I was just nodding and mm-hmm back there. I had so many times I wanted to jump in, y'all.

• 9:06Michelle Obama?

  Well, what's been going on?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Oh, so much. I'm doing really well. I'm out here still just writing. You mentioned a restaurant that is called Somerville. That's in my neighborhood that I'm really excited about.

• 9:20Craig Robinson?

  What made you say, all right, I want to open up a restaurant? Is that a dream or was it just circumstantial?

• 9:27Speaker 01

  You know, it's twofold. I've always said if I wasn't a writer, I'd be a bartender or a waitress.

• 9:34Michelle Obama?

  Okay, well, there you go.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  I like the food environment. I love serving. I love hosting. And there is a degree of that. And I love eating out. And so since I was young, I've even played, like doing playdates with my brother, my little brother, our playdates would be.

• 9:54Michelle Obama?

  Restaurant.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Restaurant, yes. And I would be the bossy restaurant owner.

• 9:58Craig Robinson?

  Sounds familiar.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  And then also, I remember having my best friend and I have the same birthday. And it was like the 30-something birthday.

• 10:07Michelle Obama?

  You were Capricorn, too.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  I'm a Capricorn, baby, yes. You already know, 12th over here.

• 10:12Michelle Obama?

  That's why we bossy.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I know. I don't like to admit it. I want to give my mother that satisfaction. But we were just out. We always celebrate our birthday together. We went to dinner. And we were just like, ah, let's go. Like, we trying to go out. And in your 30s, you're not trying to go to a club. You're trying to go to a place to lounge and have a good time. It was so hard.

• 10:33Michelle Obama?

  To find.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  So many different spots. And it just wasn't the right vibe. It was just, and it infuriated me. I was like, we are both from LA. We cannot find a spot with us that's just a good time that'll cater to us. And that was like my villain origin story. Where I was like, I want that in my neighborhood.

• 10:52Michelle Obama?

  Man, doing it with your little baby boss self.

• 10:55Craig Robinson?

  Were you gonna say something?

• 10:56Michelle Obama?

  I wanted to find out.

• 10:58Craig Robinson?

  Go ahead.

• 10:58Michelle Obama?

  As we talk about friendships and we will eventually read a letter from one of our listeners who's seeking advice around friendships. But something people ask me, you know, which applies to you, is that as you've become. Issa Rae. You know, how has that affected friendships for you? Or has it? You know, have you become more cautious? Have you, have people come in and out of your life? Have you thought about it differently? You felt like you needed to think about friendships differently? Given your, you know, your ascent and who you've become.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  I have been very lucky that I've had, you know, friends since high school. Because I'm from LA. And there is a sense of this feeling like my job. Like I don't, I didn't, I didn't move here to become myself.

• 11:55Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  I was already here and I grew up around this environment. And a lot of the people that I went to school with are my friends still. And even my name, my name is Joey Sajoke. That's how I grew up. And so even the Issa Rae of it is like, those are people who don't really know me. Who are my friends, you know, call me by name or my nickname. And so there's such a distinct separation. But I've had, I've definitely had friendship breakups.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  As a result, some as a result of working together. As we both descended, some as a result of not being able to handle the, the change in position, the time. Like I have, I had a friend who I thought I was going to be friends with forever. But she went through two major milestones.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Kind of traumatic milestones, really young. She got married when we were in college and divorced when none of my other friends had experienced those things. And I didn't, as a friend, know how to handle that or have the capacity to handle that. And that was, that was actually strike two, I think, on my part for her. Strike one was her father died when she was in college. And that was, she was the first friend whose parent had passed away. And I felt like I wasn't equipped to like truly be there for her in the way that she needed me to. And that was around the time when I started like, I'm rising in my own career. And I felt like she never took my career seriously or my aspirations seriously.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  So we fell apart and drifted apart. And we tried to come together, but we were just in different places. And that was.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  One of my most painful friendship breakups. Because it wasn't acknowledged.

• 13:49Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  In that way.

• 13:52Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  But I haven't had any like, you're famous, I'm using you type things.

• 13:58Craig Robinson?

  Well, that's a perfect segue for our listener letter. It's somebody who fell out of favor with a friend. So Natalie, are you ready to?

• 14:10Michelle Obama?

  Read us.

• 14:10Craig Robinson?

  Read us the letter?

• 14:12Michelle Obama?

  Let's do it.

• 14:12Craig Robinson?

  All right.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:15Speaker 03

  Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Eva and I'm 32 years old. In my early twenties, I met my friend Kristen through a male friend of mine who she briefly dated. That relationship did not last, but Kristen and I stayed friends. If I'm being honest, though, my friendship with Kristen felt a little unbalanced from the start. I really like friendships to feel effortless. Like, both sides naturally want to spend time together, check in, show up for each other. But I noticed right away that Kristen wanted to make plans pretty often. I'm a people pleaser, and I had a hard time saying no to her invites when my schedule was already a little too busy with other friend hangs or dates.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  And when it came to my dating in particular, she had pretty strong opinions about what I was doing wrong. I am not perfect by any stretch, but I do have strong instincts, and I like to trust my gut rather than take advice like this from friends. Still, over time, I really came to respect Kristen. She's incredibly thoughtful, and it's a pretty special thing to have someone so much in your corner. We started to go on day trips together, and I genuinely appreciated our quality time together over the years. Recently, though, Kristen lost a close family member, and when I sent a text checking in, I got an unexpected text back saying she wanted to stop communicating with me.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  She said, "People who were not nearly as close with her had been a lot more supportive. She felt the imbalance in our friendship and wanted it to be over. Honestly, I did not see this coming. I knew our friendship was complicated, but I felt like I was being myself and it was not enough. Ideally, I wanted to continue our friendship as it was, even if it wasn't innately easy or perfect. But now I'm worried I'm a bad friend. Adult friends are not family and they're not romantic partners, but they are people we love. And I did not enjoy hurting her, especially when I felt I was just being myself." How do you maintain healthy friendships if there is an imbalance in expectations? Is it possible?

• 16:28Speaker 03

  What do adult friends owe each other? Thanks for your thoughts, Eva.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  That took so many turns.

• 16:36Craig Robinson?

  Can I just say, before we dig into this, there would never be a guy that wrote a question like that. We just don't, it's not our thing.

• 16:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I just, I can speak for me, but female friendships are complicated. Because we are, we go there. We are, you know, we, and we spend so much time playing out the sociology. I think women, and I don't want to generalize, but women more so, we are sociologists. I, I just find the interpersonal interactions of everyone, especially my friends, are fascinating to me. So when I'm with my friends, and this was true at all levels, we're never just gonna throw a ball. You know, we're not just trying to finish a game. It's like, I want to know, why, how? Tell me more.

• 17:30Michelle Obama?

  What did that, well, let's talk about that a little bit more. And in the process of that, you know each other inside and out, which is why some of these hurts, why it hurts so much.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 17:43Michelle Obama?

  Because, you know, and not every woman does this, but I know my friendships, all of them are deep and meaningful. And they don't always last, but, but because of that, you, you don't end it without the hurt, you know? It is complicated.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a, a piece of you that you're giving so many of, I mean, so many of the women in my life know, things that I just would never share with them, that I've... As a closed off person, if I've opened up to you, that already means like you mean a lot to me and that I that I see a future with you and automatically if I deem you as a friend, then that's like for life. And so the idea that that gets cut off for any reason, and especially if I'm culpable, or if I feel betrayed by you, that is devastating. And even in hearing this letter, this woman felt like she was even hesitant to become this person's friend to begin with.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  And then ultimately was just like, oh, okay, I see the value in my life. But there was, there were tinges of selfishness there, just even in terms of how she saw the friendship. But it still felt like she was, in any version of this, I don't know. I don't think that she was willing to be a full friend to this woman. Is the way that I read it. And that's okay, but you just have to be honest about that. You can't have it both ways.

• 19:19Craig Robinson?

  This episode is brought to you by Theraplu. We've partnered with Theraplu to spread awareness about the amazing work they're doing to fight for paid sick days for all workers in America. Mish, don't you remember when dad didn't feel comfortable taking paid sick days?

• 19:38Michelle Obama?

  Well, I didn't realize he didn't feel comfortable. And just to remind folks, our dad was a blue collar worker. He worked as a stationary fireman for the water filtration plant for the city of Chicago. So he was a shift worker. But I do, what I remember is that our dad never, I can't remember him ever taking a sick day

• 20:02Michelle Obama?

  or a day off other than his assigned vacation days.

• 20:07Craig Robinson?

  Never.

• 20:08Michelle Obama?

  And I didn't know why, I just thought, you know, he just had a great work ethic, which I think he did.

• 20:13Craig Robinson?

  Which he did, but he never, it seemed like he was either never sick, which we know now was impossible.

• 20:19Michelle Obama?

  Well, our father had. Multiple sclerosis. So I would imagine there were days that he woke up and he probably felt tired. He probably felt a level of exhaustion that came with the disease. But he just pushed through.

• 20:33Craig Robinson?

  He just really just fought through it and didn't want to take any sick days and.

• 20:38Michelle Obama?

  Like too many folks in this country.

• 20:41Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 20:42Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 20:42Craig Robinson?

  Right, right. Theraplu firmly believes that the ability to rest and recover when sick should be a right, not a privilege. And I love that. Theraplu's Right to Rest and Recover campaign was created to help offset the financial burden that Americans without paid sick leave feel when they take a sick day. So far, seven and a half million workers have been impacted by this initiative and Theraplu is committed to keeping the fight going because no one should have to work sick or choose between their health and their job. Learn more or help someone apply for the fund at

• 21:20Craig Robinson?

  theraplu.com/righttorecover. We're so thrilled that PineSol is a partner of IMO. PineSol has been connected to our family forever. To this day, whenever my sister and I catch the scent of PineSol, we automatically feel better about life. The smell of PineSol has always taken us back to our childhood home. It is amazing how smells can transport you to a place or a moment in time. Another smell that takes me back is cherry blossoms, which always remind me of visiting Michelle in DC. That's why I'm excited for PineSol's newest scent, Cherry Blossom. The cleaning power you know and love from PineSol is available

• 22:05Craig Robinson?

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• 22:50Craig Robinson?

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• 23:34Craig Robinson?

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• 24:04Michelle Obama?

  The biggest hurts that I've had in friendships, and hurts is strong. When I didn't feel like there was emotional reciprocity, right? Because, you know, the imbalance that she talks about, that's, you know, that's always present.

• 24:25Craig Robinson?

  Right, right, right.

• 24:26Michelle Obama?

  Someone in every relationship is given a little more, given a little less. You know, some people have more or less at a given time. I mean, people are complicated and flawed, and all of us are. That has never been a problem for me. Like, the complicated nature of my friends, right? When I felt most, almost betrayed is when I felt like...

• 24:52Michelle Obama?

  We're all at the table, giving, sharing, and you weren't. You were at the table, but it's sort of like, like, it wouldn't be, you know, probably one of the reasons when he went through his divorce, his first marriage, I didn't know what he was going through. There, there probably felt like a little emotional, you know, I, I felt emotionally robbed because it was like, you weren't telling me.

• 25:21Craig Robinson?

  Sharing, right.

• 25:21Michelle Obama?

  You weren't telling me, and, you know, and maybe it's because I, what, you didn't trust me? You didn't trust yourself?

• 25:27Craig Robinson?

  See, she's still hot about it, can't you tell?

• 25:29Michelle Obama?

  But I'm just using it as an example in, in the table of, for me at least, that becomes more important, you know, and maybe it's because of who I am and trust and, you know, when you, and I let people in, so when I let people in, you're in.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 25:47Michelle Obama?

  You know, and I, I don't have the time or the energy to have to second guess what I say to you or how I feel. I want to be at the table with my friends completely myself. But that means, I'm assuming you are too. And if you're not, and in the case of Eva, maybe her friend didn't feel like she was fully there, or maybe she wasn't.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  That's so complicated.

• 26:12Craig Robinson?

  Well, it started out with the term imbalanced, which I just can't understand when it comes to friendship.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Why?

• 26:21Michelle Obama?

  If we should really say, what's your problem?

• 26:23Craig Robinson?

  Because my friends are my friends. There's, you know,

• 26:29Craig Robinson?

  relationships ebb and flow. So it's rarely going to be where the, everybody's feelings are balanced at the same time. So isn't life always out of balance?

• 26:39Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I think I, I said, I don't disagree with that.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  But there is the, if, if you're, if you're always showing up, if you're always the one that's like checking in, if you're... Even if you're always the one providing the tickets, that's fine. Like, tickets to the games, I'm always the one with the tickets. If you find out your other friend has tickets and didn't invite you and you're not there, like, that's still, there's an imbalance. Like, I'm always thinking of you first because you're not thinking of me first. That's like, that's the unhealthy imbalance where it's just, okay, you're not gonna show up for me in the same way that I show up for you.

• 27:11Michelle Obama?

  Or like, you're always at my house and I'm never at yours. I mean, that, that, that's a problem. You know, if I look, I don't mind hosting, I don't mind being, because oftentimes with my friend group, I am the one with tickets. I am the one, I have the resources, I've got the, you know, I have more of the special, go, guess what we can do? And there, there's a natural imbalance, but it's like, you, if you never invite me on a trip, even if I can't go, or if you never plan a dinner, even if it's just pizza.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  I know your effort is, yes. Even if it's just pizza, like, girl, I know you like pizza and you invited me, this means a lot. You know? And I'm fine, I will meet you where you're at, because I know that this is your love language. But you can tell when someone's kind of checked out of any kind of effort, or that you, you don't rank as high on their, on their list of friends.

• 28:06Michelle Obama?

  So what's your version of balanced in friendship?

• 28:11Craig Robinson?

  You know, I guess with me and my friends, because I, like you, I don't want to generalize. As long as every now and then, somebody else buys a round of drinks, or it's lightweight.

• 28:29Craig Robinson?

  You use tickets, that tickets is a great example. Not everybody has the same means, so inviting me to a Lakers game is one thing. Or if I invite you to a Lakers game and you invite me to a high school game, that's equivalency to me. That's equivalency to me. What, but, I, but what I, I don't get about this relationship was that she knew it was imbalanced from the beginning. Your, to your point, Issa, my friends and I don't, we don't roll that way. We're, we're more transactional. As long as we're getting something out of it. We feel okay. We're just, we don't go as deep.

• 29:09Craig Robinson?

  And like you were saying, how you're, you're, it's sociology for women. It's not. It's carpentry for men, you know?

• 29:19Michelle Obama?

  It's shop.

• 29:21Craig Robinson?

  It's, it's, it's, I didn't want to say gym, but it's,

• 29:27Craig Robinson?

  we, we enjoy each other for surface level enjoyment. And if we need to go deep, we'll go deep.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  To what extent? So like even if, I'm not getting in your business. But like from the divorce of it, right?

• 29:39Michelle Obama?

  We are getting in this business.

• 29:42Craig Robinson?

  For the divorce.

• 29:43Michelle Obama?

  Two Capricorns.

• 29:44Craig Robinson?

  I told.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 29:45Michelle Obama?

  We in your business.

• 29:46Craig Robinson?

  I told, like, I tell her everything.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:49Craig Robinson?

  But she left out, the reason I didn't tell her was because I was hoping that it would work out. Because if it didn't work out, and I got over it, she would never get over it.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 30:05Craig Robinson?

  So I was trying to save everybody's relationship. Now, when I talk to my boys about it, that's when I go deep.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  You did go deep with it?

• 30:15Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  So you actually brought up, like, this is the thing that I'm going through.

• 30:20Michelle Obama?

  Or did you, did you bring up, we're having problems and let's talk about, or did you wait until?

• 30:26Craig Robinson?

  We, like I said at the outset, I waited until it was.

• 30:29Michelle Obama?

  So that, y'all, you didn't go deep?

• 30:31Craig Robinson?

  But, but, no, see, now see, there's no timing to it. I mean.

• 30:35Michelle Obama?

  But there is.

• 30:36Craig Robinson?

  So it was deep for me. It was deep for me, irrespective of the time.

• 30:41Michelle Obama?

  Just the mere fact that you told somebody, the obvious. You told your friends.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  That it happened.

• 30:46Michelle Obama?

  That it happened.

• 30:47Craig Robinson?

  That it's happening.

• 30:49Michelle Obama?

  That it's happening, not that it.

• 30:50Craig Robinson?

  And.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  So when you were going through it, right?

• 30:54Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  And it was hard, who did you talk to?

• 30:58Craig Robinson?

  I talked to two really good friends of mine.

• 31:02Craig Robinson?

  And we would go to a restaurant in Chicago on Friday, after the market stopped trading. And we'd have cigars and margaritas. And it was three of us. And we had one chair in the middle, so it was whoever, and we called it the Chair of Angst. So whoever was having trouble got to sit in the Chair of Angst and say, this is what I'm going through. And for a while there, I was in the Chair of Angst for like seven months because I was going through this.

• 31:38Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 31:39Craig Robinson?

  And I wasn't ready to divulge it to my family because I didn't want, if I could somehow kick save this thing.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 31:49Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Craig Robinson?

  I could tell them after the fact, yeah, you know, well, we had to work on it, but everything's fine now. But I know my family. And if I-

• 31:58Speaker 01

  He's right about that. Is he right?

• 32:00Michelle Obama?

  It's a sort of, it's sort of right. We would have been, but you know, you do what your family needs at the time, you know? There's, there's, there's no way, we, we wouldn't have gone through a recovery of things. It would just have been good to know that before it was like, everything's great and now everything is over. That's how we found out.

• 32:22Craig Robinson?

  They found out.

• 32:22Michelle Obama?

  So it was like, what? How did, you know, it's sort of the sharpness of it.

• 32:29Craig Robinson?

  I'm not saying it's the, it was the right thing to do. It was a plan. That was my plan.

• 32:34Michelle Obama?

  But the thing that I like is that you did go deep with your friends. That's why I think we were confused. Cause it sounded like you were, you did to them what you did to-

• 32:42Craig Robinson?

  No, what I was saying is we don't go deep until we need to go deep.

• 32:46Michelle Obama?

  Okay, well that, but that's, you know.

• 32:47Craig Robinson?

  We, it's not like a friendship is, there's always something to dig into.

• 32:53Michelle Obama?

  But I find that in my friends, we always go in deep.

• 32:57Craig Robinson?

  There's always something to dig into.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Because we talk about everything and there's, there's just, there are things that you don't know affect you until you talk about it. It could be nothing. It could be talking about a TV show episode that then leads to like, oh, this happened to me. And this is how I was affected by it. And there's just, and nothing is off limits. And that's the beauty of it is just, you get to explore everything freely with no judgment. And that's also the devastation of, oh, I don't have this safe space anymore. You were this safe space. Or, and I didn't even see that it was a malicious space. Which, you know, getting back to this letter, it's like this woman seemed like she was pouring her heart out to this. To Eva. And Eva was like hit or miss.

• 33:41Michelle Obama?

  I'm not even sure.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  I don't even know if I like you, girl. But, oh, I guess I do like you, but it's too late. And so I think that that's, that's also a violation of just like, am I in your life or not? Do you like me or not? Are we, are we good or not? And now someone, something happened that's tragic. And I, I think you're one of the last people I heard from. So maybe I need to be real about what this friendship actually was.

• 34:07Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, and I think Eva's asking, am I a bad friend? Right? I mean, I think, I think this situation is worth giving her some pause, you know, with maybe the other friend she is close with in real time.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:22Michelle Obama?

  If she does have those in, you know, and this is what women do. Like, this would have happened to me in one friendship and I would have gone to a set of friends to say, hey, hey.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, yes.

• 34:32Michelle Obama?

  This is what happened to me.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  Am I messing up here?

• 34:34Michelle Obama?

  Am I, did I, was I wrong? Right? And the, the crew would be, they would dissect it. They would be IMO in real time, you know? And I, I think, you know, with what I know, what we understand from this letter, I would tell Eva, yeah, girl, you do need to think a little bit, you know? Think a little bit because it, you know, for somebody to go through something tragic and then in their letter with, I think this friendship is over because it's not giving me enough. In this particular situation, she probably would check herself to say, you're right. I wasn't, I wasn't fully in this. I was ambivalent and I thought it was okay for me to be ambivalent here.

• 35:19Michelle Obama?

  Because it didn't mean the same thing to Eva as it did to the, to, to her friend.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  I have to say that I'm also guilty because part of this also triggered me in a way. Because I am guilty of, again, like you said, I am not a check-in every day type of person. I'm a very much. When I'm here, it's all about you. But I don't check in as often as I should with friends. And I've been, I've been told that in the past and I've adjusted. But you just have to tell me, but it's not a natural instinct. And so with this, I understand like Eva being like this is kind of a high maintenance friendship in a way where I, I can't, I'm not going to be the same type of giving friend that you are to me. But I will show up in the ways that I can. If you need me, I will always be there.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  And so that is, that, that would make me consider like, oh, am I, am I a bad friend? Because I don't think, I think about you, but I might not text you to be like, hey, I just want to make sure you're okay. But you should know that I would hope you would call me if you weren't okay. And know that I would show up for you and be there for you. I'm just not the, I'm not considerate.

• 36:32Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  I'm not a considerate friend in the way that I would like to be.

• 36:37Craig Robinson?

  That's a pronouncement there.

• 36:39Speaker 01

  It's, it's true. And it's like one of my biggest flaws because I'm just so work focused that I'm not like, I'll think about you, but not tell you that I'm thinking about you.

• 36:49Craig Robinson?

  Right, and that's fair.

• 36:50Michelle Obama?

  But that's also part of friendship, right? Because you know, like you said, if you're honest, if your friends know who you are, if there's some transparency there, you know, I have friends like that in times when I've been that friend. And the hope is that people will be like, girl, she must be going through something.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:07Michelle Obama?

  You know, or she's busy or, you know.

• 37:13Michelle Obama?

  And that's when you feel the security of friendship because you can completely show up as yourself, flaws and all. The inconsiderate or the, you know, you got your friend group and it's like, well, Issa's not going to be the one to call. Cause she just doesn't do that, you know? I'm not a great, you know, I, I don't, I don't call on a regular basis, but I tend to organize my friends more. Same. Like I'm the one that's like, okay, let's think about this. Or, you know, everybody come visit me here. And, and that was because of eight years also. I mean. Yeah, it's hard. It was hard to reach me for eight years without a whole lot of goings on. In order for me to maintain my friendships, I had to be more deliberate.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:58Michelle Obama?

  And over the years, I've become the more deliberate one. And also because of who I am, I think people just assume, I don't want to bother you.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, same.

• 38:06Michelle Obama?

  You know, because I'm not going to bring these problems. I've had so many of my good friends who went through stuff and I'm like, you didn't tell me? No, I didn't want to bother you. So that means I often have to bend over even more.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 38:20Michelle Obama?

  To check in so people know that when things are tough, do not not call me. Because I mean, I'm not doing things.

• 38:32Michelle Obama?

  Now I'm mad at you for that. That happened like 50 years ago. Right, right. But you were going to say something before I cut you off.

• 38:39Craig Robinson?

  No, no, no. That was great. I appreciate that. And I also appreciate, now you see, she would have been mad when she said she wouldn't.

• 38:46Michelle Obama?

  It wouldn't have lasted.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  It would.

• 38:48Michelle Obama?

  You know, Capricorns, we get mad, but it doesn't, we don't say mad.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Absolutely not.

• 38:52Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, no, you don't.

• 39:01Craig Robinson?

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• 40:29Craig Robinson?

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• 41:10Craig Robinson?

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• 42:20Craig Robinson?

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• 43:04Craig Robinson?

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• 43:48Craig Robinson?

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• 43:56Speaker 04

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• 44:04Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a question about the Chair of Angst?

• 44:06Craig Robinson?

  Yes.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Did they ask you questions? Or was it more of like a venting space?

• 44:12Michelle Obama?

  Was it an inquiry?

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:14Craig Robinson?

  It was. It was all of the above. Because sometimes the person who was in the Chair of Angst just needed to vent.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:24Craig Robinson?

  And in the venting, the other two would ask questions to find out, okay, is this really what's going on? Or is there anything we can do? Or what predicated this? And it was just, it was a give and take. It wasn't just a venting session. But... It was, at least for me, it was liberating to be able to just have somebody to talk to about things that, you know, that were deep and private that I didn't, I wasn't ready to share with the, the whole world.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  That's dope, but y'all had to make a whole construct. To do that.

• 45:04Michelle Obama?

  With cigars and margaritas and whatnot.

• 45:07Craig Robinson?

  That's how my guys are.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Once you out the chair, it's like, no more.

• 45:12Craig Robinson?

  No more questions, no more questions.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  No more questions, no more problems, that's it.

• 45:16Michelle Obama?

  Well, but see, and that's the other thing you can't do with women, or with me, your sister. We, we don't let it go.

• 45:23Craig Robinson?

  They don't let it go.

• 45:24Michelle Obama?

  It's like, you, you were never out of the chair. Cause now I'm calling you and going, okay, what happened today?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  What happened, yeah.

• 45:28Craig Robinson?

  So not only do I have a sister, I have a wife, and, which has helped me communicate, right? Because I say all the time, our relationship, the relationship with my wife and the relationship with my daughter, who is now 28, I'm a better communicator, not just with women, but in general, because I, I get it, I get it. There are times when my wife wants to talk to me and I don't wanna talk, but I have to be intentional about, she needs this.

• 45:57Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm, and you, and you needed to.

• 46:00Craig Robinson?

  Well, if I need it, I will go get it. But with my friends, it's, we, we never get there like that.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  So a friend has never disappointed you?

• 46:12Craig Robinson?

  Ah, yes.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Cause you don't have expectations of them?

• 46:15Craig Robinson?

  No, friends have disappointed, but I, it doesn't injure me as deeply. And, and if your next question is, do I approach them and say, hey, you really disappointed me, I have. And I think that's why we keep our friendship.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  And have you had that happen to you with one of your friends, where they've approached you and said, hey, this is, you just show up in this way and I'm, I'm upset?

• 46:40Craig Robinson?

  I have not.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Have you, have you ended a friendship?

• 46:45Craig Robinson?

  At the risk of sounding... Cocky. I have not.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Oh, cuz you're a good, you're a good friend. I keep hitting this. Cuz you're a good friend.

• 46:52Craig Robinson?

  I hope that I am.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  You seem like you're a good friend.

• 46:55Craig Robinson?

  But it's, it is, it is.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  You have a sister. You have to be a good friend.

• 46:59Craig Robinson?

  It, it, but it's, it's, it's, doesn't have to be deep friendship. It can be just below the surface.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  But I think you're, you, you allow people to just be comfortable with you. And I think that that, that is essential in a friendship. And you may not challenge them in a way. But if a friendship isn't serving you, will you just ignore it and keep it going? Like keep them around? You'll never be like, hey, I kinda don't like hanging around. Uh, you kinda get on my nerves.

• 47:31Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, so this is a really good question, and I haven't thought about this because unlike my sister, I didn't make too many new friends as an adult. You know, after a certain period, I shouldn't say as an adult, sort of as, as I've gotten older. So my friends are my friends, and they're gonna be my friends. And new people that I met, meet that I haven't known for a long time, who are friends, the shift to the right, and they don't make the shift to the right, we just don't communicate as much.

• 48:02Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm. I call that the slow ghost.

• 48:06Craig Robinson?

  That, she does. She calls it the slow ghost. It doesn't, it, it doesn't.

• 48:10Michelle Obama?

  It's not enough to have a conversation with because, you know, and, and do you really care? So you go through the emotional energy, you just sort of.

• 48:18Craig Robinson?

  Just let it, let it die on the vine.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it does.

• 48:22Michelle Obama?

  Quiet death.

• 48:23Craig Robinson?

  And, and, and, and which brings me to another point that you all didn't talk about, but it made me think about this, is that I don't mind being ghosted.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Me neither.

• 48:34Craig Robinson?

  I don't mind that. Now.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  If it didn't matter.

• 48:37Craig Robinson?

  It, it, if it didn't matter, it didn't matter. I'm not, I'm not, but let's say I get the slow ghost, right? I get the slow ghost, and then a year later, the guy texts me and say, hey, I'ma be in town. Wanna go get a drink? I'll be like, yeah, sure.

• 48:53Craig Robinson?

  And you all are laughing, but that is how we operate. That is how we operate.

• 48:58Michelle Obama?

  I was forgiving.

• 48:58Craig Robinson?

  Just look at the guys in here all smiling, trying not to get in trouble. They are trying for me not to get in trouble.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  No, I'm just like, girl, you gave me a reason. Thank you. No, you are done. I had too many people I messed with. Because there's nothing worse than like, like having, sometimes you just don't have time and making a new friend who you're kind of not sure about, and then you have to like make plans together. If the slow ghost allows you to never speak to them again and never have to plan anything, and it's, it's fine.

• 49:30Craig Robinson?

  Ouch.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  But even with your friends, I'm sorry, your friends that you grew up with,

• 49:37Speaker 01

  inevitably, you guys, like you, you grow up, you become who you are supposed to be, right? There are no friends that you've grown up with, that you have, where you're just like, I've outgrown them mentally, or they, you know, don't necessarily, we don't vibe the same anymore. There's never been that, and that thought has never crossed your mind.

• 49:59Craig Robinson?

  The guys who like say grammar school people who were my friends, I'm still in touch with.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  And they've never, since grammar school?

• 50:08Craig Robinson?

  Since, since high school, first day of high school.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. But your friends that you hold now, your male friends, is that to say that you've never even fought?

• 50:20Craig Robinson?

  No, we fought, yeah, but it's, it's.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  It's not an emotional fight?

• 50:25Michelle Obama?

  There's no, I mean, I'm just like, I know his friends. It's like, there's just, there's not a lot going on.

• 50:30Craig Robinson?

  There's no emotional fight. You're talking about, I thought you were talking about like a fight.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  No, that's not, like guys to me, y'all will be like, like y'all will physically fight and be like, well, he the alpha, I'm the beta, that's it, and we're good for life.

• 50:45Craig Robinson?

  Let's go have a beer.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And no, if I, if I physically fight with my female friends, it's over.

• 50:51Craig Robinson?

  Well, you all don't physically fight.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  No, but in.

• 50:54Craig Robinson?

  But I get it, I get it.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  But the emotional fights allow you to get closer, or? You know, decide this isn't the right relationship.

• 51:03Michelle Obama?

  I just think it goes back to the level, you know? And again, this isn't true for everyone, but even just watching my brother, it's like, you know, your friends sort of hover around the surface. And it's real, meaningful friendships, but they're just not as deep as the friendships I see among women.

• 51:23Craig Robinson?

  Until there is a crisis, then we go deep.

• 51:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, you know, it's true. People show up, go to the funeral, you know, all of that sort of stuff.

• 51:33Craig Robinson?

  Go straight to death, but not the funeral.

• 51:35Michelle Obama?

  Because that's what a crisis is for these superficial friendships. There's gotta be like a thing that happens.

• 51:41Craig Robinson?

  It could be something going on with their kids, or it could be a divorce, or it could be, you know, a car accident.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Something super dire.

• 51:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 51:48Craig Robinson?

  A crisis, but it's not.

• 51:50Michelle Obama?

  And a crisis for women is just like.

• 51:52Craig Robinson?

  Every day.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Don't do this like that.

• 51:57Michelle Obama?

  You know, like I.

• 51:59Craig Robinson?

  Oh, man, I'm gonna get it when I get home.

• 52:01Michelle Obama?

  I'll give you an example, because my husband doesn't fully understand it. And he's got great friends, friends that he has since high school. I know his friends, meaningful. But when a girlfriend comes to visit, it's usually like, you gotta stay for two days because it's going to take us.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  So much time to come to.

• 52:22Michelle Obama?

  Two days to check up, right? And we're not planning anything. We're gonna sit right here and we will be here.

• 52:30Craig Robinson?

  So many rules.

• 52:31Michelle Obama?

  I've got, no, but it's not even a rule.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  It's just kicking it.

• 52:35Michelle Obama?

  And this is what it's gonna take.

• 52:36Craig Robinson?

  You gotta stay for two days.

• 52:38Michelle Obama?

  So I'll have one of my good girlfriends over, spending the night, friends with Barack, love, all that. We sit on a couch, we, there's something in front of us, tea, crackers, move to wine, you know? But we get up at 10 a.m. and we start the check-in.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Ah, that sounds beautiful.

• 52:56Michelle Obama?

  And it begins with, first of all, girl, how you? You know, tell me about you. Now, now, now, that's an hour, just sort of emotionally, mentally checking in, right? Hour two is like, okay, what about work? And tell me about, because. We know all about it. Remember that HR person you were gonna let go? What happened with that girl?

• 53:14Speaker 01

  She's still there?

• 53:15Michelle Obama?

  Oh, man.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  What?

• 53:16Michelle Obama?

  What did she do next? And then you gotta give an example of what she did. Now, now it's lunchtime, right? On, on day one. Now Barack's come in, he's come out, and he's like, y'all still talking? He'll sit down for five minutes, be like, how were the boys?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  He's interrupting the play.

• 53:31Michelle Obama?

  Exactly.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  You contributed nothing. You just interrupted the time.

• 53:36Michelle Obama?

  You know? And then it's three o'clock, and he's like, y'all still here? And it's like, we're, we're just now getting on the kids. And with one girlfriend, we each have two kids. That's four kids. That's like an hour per kid.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. I haven't even gotten to that phase yet. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

• 53:53Michelle Obama?

  It's 48 hours, cuz each kid has, you know, we know the eat issues and the things we've, you know? Now we're at dinner on day one, right? So this is what I'm saying, and my husband is like, how, what are you all talking about all day? And it's like, we're not eat, we're just scratching the surface.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And do you know that it's so, oh my, it feels so good after they leave? It's just like, there's no better feeling than like, I just got, ugh, I reconnected with my girl. She knows everything. I've been holding, I was saving this story for her because only she would understand it. Like, I can't tell, like, there's, there's friendship, there's, even in my groups, there's my friends who, if I wanna be mad at someone, and if I want to not know that I'm wrong, I go to her. Cuz she's never gonna, she's never gonna tell me I'm wrong. It's always, yeah, girl, okay, who we?

• 54:47Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  She's like, you know, like, yeah.

• 54:49Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, I needed that.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  And then there's a friend that I go to where I'm just like, I need, I need to know.

• 54:53Michelle Obama?

  The truth.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yes, I need to know the truth. I need to know that I'm not it, and they're gonna give it to me straight. And then there's just the loyal friend who's just like, gonna listen, and I could grab. But everybody has a function in some way, and they're just. It's just, it's cathartic. It's so, it's so beautiful. And that's why I'm just.

• 55:12Michelle Obama?

  And the flip side of my husband, right? Cause he golfs and golfing takes as long as the first session of our, you know, it takes five hours to golf. He'll golf with his buddies, come back and be like, how's X? He's good. He's like, what'd y'all talk about? Nothing. And I was like, I will have heard like, like somebody has cancer. And I was like, how is X? Did you hear that they had cancer? He's like, no, we didn't talk about that. And I'm just like, what? You were golfing all day.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  And it never came up.

• 55:42Michelle Obama?

  Never came up. You never asked about our godson. For example, you're with his father. How is he? I don't know. I think he's good. It's like, what were you all doing? Sitting in a cart?

• 55:51Speaker 01

  Talking about.

• 55:52Michelle Obama?

  You know, and I'm like.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  Literally nothing.

• 55:55Michelle Obama?

  You have no information and that's the difference because you'll be with each other all day. Looking directly away from each other at a ball, right? Whereas when I'm with my friends, we are turned, we are physically turned in towards one another. Feet off comfort. Sometimes we're touching, you know, there are tears. It's like, and that can go on for hours. And once you do that, then your feelings are gonna be hurt when, when you break up or somebody's gonna get mad. I mean, with that level of kind of.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Intimacy.

• 56:27Michelle Obama?

  Intimacy.

• 56:27Craig Robinson?

  I maintain.

• 56:29Michelle Obama?

  Yes.

• 56:30Craig Robinson?

  That the chair of angst with me, Jimmy and Victor is exactly the same thing. It just doesn't take as long.

• 56:39Michelle Obama?

  Okay. I don't know how you get anything out of sitting in a chair for dinner.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Cause you're also not, it also has to be around a crisis, right?

• 56:51Craig Robinson?

  It does. It, it, it takes a crisis to get it going.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  This is also why women live longer than men, cause we're getting a lot of that out.

• 57:01Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  And not to take it there, but y'all keep it in here.

• 57:05Craig Robinson?

  We do.

• 57:05Michelle Obama?

  Like the crisis would require an emergency session.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 57:09Michelle Obama?

  Somebody's on a train.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, flying.

• 57:12Michelle Obama?

  You know, there's, there's movement and you gotta kind of deal with the crisis. Yeah, I was like. We're coming, we're coming. It's a crisis.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  My friend's dog died. We were all there at the house bringing her favorite snack. Like, this is, took off work.

• 57:26Craig Robinson?

  That is a script. That is something that you could write on television.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Plan and do in a text, like, you know, she not gonna be good. Like, she's, she doesn't need this right now, you know?

• 57:37Michelle Obama?

  Right, right.

• 57:38Craig Robinson?

  You know what's so horrible about that is guys will be like, damn.

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, ah.

• 57:42Craig Robinson?

  That's it.

• 57:43Michelle Obama?

  Not a crisis.

• 57:43Craig Robinson?

  They'll be like, damn.

• 57:44Michelle Obama?

  Obviously, not a crisis.

• 57:46Craig Robinson?

  Sorry.

• 57:47Speaker 01

  Send the dog emojis.

• 57:49Michelle Obama?

  I didn't know you had a dog.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, what? Where'd you get a dog?

• 57:53Craig Robinson?

  Okay, we are, we are, we are bad. That is.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  One of my friends was talking about how guys don't know how to express.

• 58:02Michelle Obama?

  Thought you had a cat.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Guys in text don't know how to express emotions.

• 58:07Craig Robinson?

  Oh, no.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  They will use emojis like the wrong, like, ah, y'all, I lost my aunt. Dang, fire emoji, ghost emoji.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  You just don't have the language for it.

• 58:21Michelle Obama?

  That's not what those feelings are. You don't even understand the emoji feelings. You're so disconnected from feelings. I don't know what they are, but I'm sixty.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Trying to give you something.

• 58:31Michelle Obama?

  So, I don't know. But for your generation of emotions, you don't even know what fire is for. Yeah, so why do we have emotion OGs? They, they're literal. It's like, hot dog, hot dog, I'm hungry. I want lunch. Fire is like.

• 58:45Craig Robinson?

  I don't want Eva to think we are not taking her issue seriously.

• 58:49Michelle Obama?

  Okay, yeah, I forgot about Eva. No, right.

• 58:52Craig Robinson?

  No, we almost.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Well, she lost the frame.

• 58:55Michelle Obama?

  I know.

• 58:55Craig Robinson?

  But, well, is it possible to set boundaries?

• 59:02Michelle Obama?

  For sure.

• 59:03Craig Robinson?

  In a friendship that's unbalanced?

• 59:07Speaker 01

  That's how I'm gonna have to be honest about like, hey, girl, like, um, I have a lot on my plate. And I'm, that's hard to say.

• 59:15Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Because I was, yeah, I was gonna say like, I just wanna be a dinner friend. And I guess in those situations where I've been confronted about like, hey, cuz I have been, I feel like I give you more energy. That I have just been like, I blamed it on work, I blamed it on, I'm busy, but I haven't said, I don't wanna devote the time to this. Saying that I have work is the excuse and they can choose to pleasantly ghost me and I wouldn't be as affected. The fact that Eva is actually affected by this is what's confusing me. Because you, you didn't dedicate the energy to want to be her friend. And I'd imagine that you do have a set of friends that are higher to your friends.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  That like do get your time and energy, that you do consider those people, or you're just a loner and don't know how to make friends. Um, and that's a whole different situation, but I don't, I'm confused by the loss. Because you had this person who cared about you, invested in you, that that is kinda selfish if you didn't feel the same way about them.

• 1:00:18Michelle Obama?

  So, yeah, it's, it's fair to set boundaries, but I think it starts with knowing, well, who do you wanna be? How do you, how do you wanna show up? You know, and, and the honesty first has to be within yourself. You know, I mean, I think both of us probably as Capricorns, we're probably a little more honest about who we are, what we want. And, you know, and even though women talk a lot, sometimes we don't, you know, we don't spend that time. Cuz we're pouring that energy out, like, I'm, I'm, I understand you before I understand me.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yes, yes.

• 1:00:52Michelle Obama?

  And it's, that's the nature of, you know, a lot of times women are giving or, you know,

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  That's so real.

• 1:00:59Michelle Obama?

  without opening themselves up. Cuz that's hard, you know, and maybe what I would say to Eva is, maybe it's time for her to just, she's asking, do some personal reflection. About what does she want in friendship? Um, and how does she want to show up? How does she want to show up? Because if she's a loner and is is somebody who doesn't want high maintenance friendships, she's at the age where it's okay for her to own that about herself.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  And make some friends with some guys.

• 1:01:31Michelle Obama?

  Right, or, or, you know, be okay. Then understand that there will be times and then that she will get that response from friends. It's like, I thought we were this and we're not. You hurt my feelings and it's over. Right? And not take it to heart. If that's the kind of friend you are, because that's where you are in life. But if you don't want that to happen again, if that really does bother you, then you gotta take stock about how you wanna, how you need to show up for people.

• 1:02:02Craig Robinson?

  And what's, what's an example of that? How showing up? Is that just, I hear, I hear communication. I get that.

• 1:02:09Michelle Obama?

  But understanding who your friend is and what they need.

• 1:02:12Craig Robinson?

  Okay.

• 1:02:12Michelle Obama?

  Like, you know, being a little more considerate about the other person and what they need. And, you know, just like you do with a loved one, you have to do in any relationship. Sometimes you do what they need, even if it's not what you need. And with friends, you don't have to do it every day like you do for your partner, your life partner. But you do have to be aware, you know, and show up every now and then. And it sounds like Eva may not have shown up at all for this friend. And so you gotta, you know, you, you, you're gonna have to give people what they need to get, at some point, to get what you need. It's, it's like friendship language. What's your friend's friendship language? Is it time? Is it crisis management?

• 1:02:56Michelle Obama?

  Is it, you know, um,

• 1:02:58Craig Robinson?

  Brutal honesty?

• 1:02:59Michelle Obama?

  Is it acts of service? Is it brutal honesty? Is it emotional vulnerability? I would say that that's my friendship language. I, I value people's honest emotional vulnerability. That, that means a lot to me.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  But even hearing you say this, there's, you also have to have the recognition. That maybe you're also not compatible. Because some of it, some friendships, the most beautiful friendships are just instinctive. They're instinctual, like you.

• 1:03:27Michelle Obama?

  You don't have to.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  You don't have to try. You are the yin to the yang. You fit in like puzzle pieces. And then there, you know, when there are missteps, you can talk about them comfortably without necessarily feeling like you're offending. And this feels like, very much like Eva had to try too hard.

• 1:03:48Michelle Obama?

  To be something she was not.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  To be something that she wanted and that she didn't really want. And so I think considering that, and that goes back to being honest with yourself. But the best friendships I have, you haven't had to do all that. And the worst friendships I've had, that have, I've silently ghosted her, that have silently ghosted me, it was hard to manage. Like, there were just, there was always something and it felt uncomfortable. So, yeah, being honest with yourself about that is crucial.

• 1:04:14Michelle Obama?

  And how old is Eva again?

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was wondering that too.

• 1:04:17Speaker 04

  Thirty-two.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  Thirty-two? Oh yeah, this is when people start falling off, girl. Your 30s is like when it whittles down to who's gonna be there. And does she have kids?

• 1:04:28Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:04:30Michelle Obama?

  And it's gonna whittle even more, you know, if she chooses to partner and have kids, it changes. Anyway, I think that's also what I would say to Eva. It's like, this is life.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Michelle Obama?

  You know? And like she said in her letter, friends aren't family, you know? And sometimes it's good and sometimes it's not, you know? Friends will, there are seasons for friends. And who knows? In their 40s or 50s, they may reconnect. You know?

• 1:04:58Craig Robinson?

  So this is perfect, because I'm thinking, back to Eva. One of the things I would like Eva to take away from this is that being in an unbalanced relationship doesn't mean it has to end the relationship. If you want it to be another way, based, I'm learning from you all. If I'm in an unbalanced relationship and I'm the one feeling unbalanced, I gotta go to the person and say, hey, look, this is what I want out of a relationship. And if they can't provide it, then we gotta think about it ending.

• 1:05:29Michelle Obama?

  Well, and that's what her friend essentially did, you know?

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  But her friend did it during the breakup. I'm curious if the friend ever came to her and was like, hey,

• 1:05:37Michelle Obama?

  And said beforehand, I feel.

• 1:05:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is what I need from a relationship. I feel like this is unbalanced. It seems like she was like, this is the last draw. Like, my relative died, you didn't show up, this has been unbalanced. And maybe, maybe it became clear to her in that moment, which I think she said.

• 1:05:52Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, right, she did.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  All of a sudden, you ain't shit.

• 1:05:55Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Like, I realized that. And that's just, that's the way the cookie comes. I wonder if Eva also fought for it.

• 1:06:03Michelle Obama?

  Doesn't, it sounds like she's in contemplation about it.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  About fighting for it?

• 1:06:07Michelle Obama?

  Or letting it go. It sounds, it feels like she's let it go. It feels like she didn't fight for it. But I don't think we have that.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Do you guys do follow, you know?

• 1:06:17Michelle Obama?

  Well, we could, you know?

• 1:06:18Speaker 01

  I need to know.

• 1:06:20Craig Robinson?

  Well, let's, let's figure out a couple, three things that we can tell Eva, and then maybe we could figure out a follow up with her.

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Well, one of the things is, I think you mentioned it, is like, if you have this other set of friends holding court and just being like, hey, guys, how do I?

• 1:06:37Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Am I selling my secret?

• 1:06:39Michelle Obama?

  Take it to your counsel.

• 1:06:40Speaker 01

  What are the ways that I don't show up? Have I been a bad, bad friend? And like, use that to become a better friend.

• 1:06:49Michelle Obama?

  I completely agree with that. And also, you know, be easy on yourself. You're 32, this is how it goes. You know, people come, people go. You know, even hurts can be healed because, you know, who, who knows where you'll be when you're 50? You know, life is long and friendships have ebbs and flows. And in, in the meantime, I, what I would tell her is, use this as an opportunity, since you're bothered by it, to figure out how you can grow.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  And one thing that I've done before, write a letter with no expectation of a response. If you, if you really do care about how your actions impacted this person, write a letter of apology, say where you're coming from, and...

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  Let that person know, hey, I just wanted to get this off my chest. This is the way that you, I really valued you. I'm sorry I didn't show up for you in this way. The door is still open to be friends if you'll walk through it again, but feel free not to respond. I just wanted to get this off. Like, if you really feel badly about it, write her a letter, but don't expect a response.

• 1:08:03Michelle Obama?

  I like that.

• 1:08:04Craig Robinson?

  I like that, too. But you know what I like even more is when Issa said, "Just get a guy friend."

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  Honestly, you want a low-maintenance relationship.

• 1:08:14Craig Robinson?

  You want a low-maintenance relationship? Get a guy friend.

• 1:08:16Michelle Obama?

  Get a guy friend. And don't worry, you don't have to even know if he has a dog.

• 1:08:24Craig Robinson?

  Eva, we really care about you.

• 1:08:25Speaker 01

  No, for real.

• 1:08:26Michelle Obama?

  You'll be good, girl.

• 1:08:27Craig Robinson?

  You'll be all right.

• 1:08:28Michelle Obama?

  This is, this is how, as you said, Issa, the cookie crumbles. Life is like this. But this has been fun.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is so fun. What's the next letter?

• 1:08:39Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, come on.

• 1:08:41Craig Robinson?

  Got that one down. Thank you so much.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:09:04Craig Robinson?

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