On Trump’s 'Day One' Promises: Former DHS Sec. Alejandro Mayorkas Talks Immigration, Terrorism, and Cybersecurity Threats

President Donald Trump has vowed to tackle immigration on “day one,” and that includes promising to close the southern border and begin mass deportations almost immediately. So who better to discuss the plausibility of those imminent plans than the man who led immigration policy at the Department of Homeland Security for the past four years, former Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas? Kara sits down for an exit interview with Mayorkas to talk about the backlash he faced, from both sides of the aisle, during a term plagued by “Biden’s Border Crisis”; whether he feels responsible for Trump’s election victory; his assessment of the threats posed by foreign and domestic extremists; his thoughts on calls to break up the mammoth DHS; and what he makes of his tapped successor, South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem. Plus: why he thinks banning TikTok an imperative, if ultimately thankless, game of national security whack-a-mole. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on Instagram @onwithkaraswisher Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The breaking news is that I've decided to stay.

• 0:03Kara Swisher?

  I'll inform the Trumps.

• 0:19Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Happy Martin Luther King Jr. Day and happy inauguration. Depending on who you are, yes, depending on who you are. And keep warm there in Washington. I'm actually in Miami right now taping this. I had to get out of Dodge. Today is, in fact, the first day of President Trump's term, at least starting at noon. I'm not going to say how I feel about this. I think it'll just reflect in the content we create here at On and at Pivot. I have no advice for people, except hold on. But all incoming presidents make big promises of everything they'll do on day one. Of course, immigration has been at the top of Trump's list.

• 1:02Kara Swisher?

  He's promised to close borders, begin mass deportations and more, and reporting on that has already started about actions he could be taking almost immediately. But what does that really mean? My guest today is one of the few people who can answer that question, outgoing Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas. Mayorkas is the first immigrant and first Latino to be confirmed in the position after many years of public service. In the late 1990s, he became the youngest U.S. Attorney in the country in his home state of California. In 2009, President Obama brought him on as Director of the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. In Obama's second term, Mayorkas became Deputy Secretary of Homeland Security,

• 1:45Kara Swisher?

  and he was President Biden's pick to lead the department. To be clear, DHS is a $115 billion federal agency that oversees a lot: immigration, the border, disaster response, federal protection, cybersecurity, and anti-terrorism. Some have advocated for its dissolution. And as a man tasked with overseeing some of the nation's most contentious issues, Mayorkas has been under pressure more than most. ...in Washington, including becoming the first cabinet member to be impeached by the House in nearly 150 years. Our expert question today comes from one of the few Republicans who voted against that impeachment, former Colorado Congressman Ken Buck. Just to note, we recorded this interview on Thursday, January 16th, the day before

• 2:28Kara Swisher?

  Mayorkas's potential successor, South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem, had her Senate confirmation hearings. So we didn't get a chance to ask Mayorkas about what he thought of Noem's comments about DHS, for example, her claim that it has a reputation of being broken and dysfunctional. I'm not sure what to say about Noem, but Mayorkas, as you'll see, was very kind to her and is hoping for the best. And there was a lot of ground to cover with the outgoing secretary besides Kristi Noem's various and sundry insults, including what he makes of the feasibility of many of Trump's proposals, so stick around.

• 3:12Speaker 02

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• 4:54Kara Swisher?

  Secretary Mayorkas, welcome. Thanks for being on, on.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  Thank you so much for having me, Kara.

• 4:59Kara Swisher?

  So I don't know if you know this, I'm doing all the exit interviews for the Biden administration. No, I'm not necessarily, but I have wanted to talk to you. We met before and we're speaking on January 16th, one of your last few days in office. While other folks may be tying up loose ends as head of DHS, you've had some big events to deal with in your final weeks, including wildfires in Southern California. Los Angeles is your hometown, by the way. I just would love to hear about your thoughts on the fires there. What's it like for you seeing, say, Palisades ablaze?

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Kara, it is devastating. I know many people who have lost their homes, not only in the Palisades, but in the even fire in Pasadena, in the Altadena area. I see and speak with people who've lost all their possessions, their mementos. It is heartbreaking. It is not, though, the first disaster that I have been exposed to in this job. While it is closer to home, if you will, the impacts elsewhere have sometimes been even more devastating.

• 6:08Kara Swisher?

  So the fires have been called the most destructive in California history, and we've had some very destructive fires. I recall the ones up in the north a couple of years ago were terrifying. I have a home up there. Incoming President-elect Trump falsely claimed that one of the reasons they're out of control is there's, quote, "no money in FEMA."

• 6:28Kara Swisher?

  I'd love to know what's your opinion of what's to blame and if you could have done more to buffer this.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  You know, frankly, I'm not aware, Kara, of anything to blame right now. I will say the following. Historically, tragedies have actually driven unity of perspective, of care, of effort, and of words. That unfortunately has not held true in recent times, and I think it's very, very sad. Number one. Number two, it's not the time for inaccurate information that only corrodes confidence in the services that are being provided and can be provided.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  We really do need a level of, return to a level of unity.

• 7:20Kara Swisher?

  Talk to me a little bit about what you do when you're in an environment, you're in a misinformation environment, a propaganda environment, a basically lies environment, which does erode people, and especially when people are particularly vulnerable.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  Yes, and you know, we saw that quite powerfully in North Carolina, where there was disinformation.

• 7:41Kara Swisher?

  These are the floods.

• 7:42Speaker 00

  Yes, where FEMA, we had to draw people, FEMA people, from the field because they were at risk when in fact they were sacrificing themselves for the benefit of others. What we do is we disseminate accurate information as most effectively as we can, so people understand that there is a reliable source of information upon which they can base their important life decisions at a time of tragedy. That is what we can do.

• 8:15Kara Swisher?

  But it doesn't work. I mean, even, you've been overwhelmed by social media. I think another cabinet member has said that it's impossible to push back on. Do you find that to be the case?

• 8:26Speaker 00

  I would say that it is an imperative to push back on it, to disseminate accurate information, and the effectiveness of our efforts varies considerably.

• 8:38Speaker 00

  ...according to the, a number of factors. And it is an uphill battle in the social media environment. The digital literacy of the audience, which is obviously not monolithic, but quite, quite varied. There are a number of different factors. It is a tough landscape on which to fight, but I mean, we have a responsibility to undertake that fight.

• 9:06Kara Swisher?

  What if the owners of these social media sites are either allowing the information to proliferate or pushing it out themselves? I'm speaking of Elon Musk and X or over at Facebook, which now they've sort of removed all the guardrails.

• 9:19Speaker 00

  I have never thought the truth to be an enemy. I have found it to be a tool of progress. And I will say, within the Department of Homeland Security, what I say is do not shrink from criticism, just work very hard not to deserve it. Criticism that is valid drives accountability. Accountability should drive progress. But to be a vehicle of misinformation is, I find it to be irresponsible.

• 9:48Kara Swisher?

  Does a government have any ability not to be in an uphill battle of this? Is it hopeless from your point of view?

• 9:54Speaker 00

  I am a relentless optimist, so you will not hear the word hopeless from me too often. This now gets into a broader issue, Kara, but you know, the government needs to more swiftly and effectively harness technology and modern tools in order to be effective in an increasingly technological and modernized world. And so I do not say it is hopeless. I just think, for example, we need to be more nimble and more present on social media, and we need to really...

• 10:39Speaker 00

  Discover new ways to reach people who, right now, we find ourselves not accessing.

• 10:46Kara Swisher?

  Okay, but someone who's good at this, Governor Gavin Newsom, still, and he's very active, and of course, he's quite nimble at these things, he's still, I think, believes he's fighting a losing battle here, he said he's worried the president-elect Trump will withhold disaster relief. Talk about what impact that would have, and a lot of congresspeople are talking about it and saying, well, hurricanes, you can't prevent, but forest fires, you can. They've all kinds of nonsensical ideas around bringing disaster relief in. Can you talk a little about what impact that would have?

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Well, if disaster relief is withheld, there is a micro impact and there's a macro impact. The micro impact could be, for example, that individuals do not receive immediate needs funding, whether it's $770 to be able to buy clothes, a baby formula, or whatever the immediate needs are. Then we have the more widespread point of an inability to rebuild entire communities. That has an extraordinary human impact, as well as a national impact

• 11:57Speaker 00

  in terms of the economic prosperity of a community and how it contributes to a broader economic prosperity of our country. If FEMA does not have the funds, we are not removing, and when I say we, the government, state, local, federal government, the ecosystem, is not removing hazardous debris, non-hazardous debris, clearing the areas, and rebuilding entire communities, homes, businesses, schools, institutions of different faith denominations.

• 12:31Kara Swisher?

  What's your reaction to these threats?

• 12:33Speaker 00

  I actually, I don't believe that they will materialize. I think the outstanding question, according to the rhetoric, is, will strings be attached? Then the question is, what are those strings, and how responsible are they from a policy perspective? Are they political strings? Are they other strings? I just, I don't know what to expect.

• 12:56Kara Swisher?

  What if they're political, like, we don't want you to use they/them anymore. We want to attach it to whatever.

• 13:01Speaker 00

  Relief.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  In response to human tragedy should not be politicized, full stop.

• 13:07Kara Swisher?

  And how do you feel about people who do that, personally?

• 13:11Speaker 00

  Irresponsible government.

• 13:14Kara Swisher?

  Irresponsible to do that, to do that?

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:17Kara Swisher?

  So you've also had to deal with potential terrorist attacks on New Year's Day. Fourteen people were killed in New Orleans by a U.S. Army veteran claiming for his support of ISIS. DHS is dealing with combined threats from foreign terrorism, adverse nation states, and increasingly over the past ten years from homegrown violent extremism. Are you concerned about an ISIS resurgence abroad and in the U.S.?

• 13:39Speaker 00

  We are, and let me break those two apart. So the situation in Syria, for example, has the potential to fuel an ISIS resurgence in that country, and of course, that has a potential to metastasize. So, yes, indeed, we are concerned. Then there is the issue, Kara, of individuals already resident in the United States, radicalized to violence by the ISIS ideology, which we see evidenced in the tragic attack of January 1st, 2025. And by the way, when we speak of a radicalization to violence domestically,

• 14:22Speaker 00

  it is not just foreign terrorist ideologies, as we have observed, most unfortunately and tragically. We see ideologies of hate, anti-government sentiment, false narratives, personal grievance, different motivations that have driven people to radicalize the violence domestically.

• 14:43Kara Swisher?

  So in leaving the office right now, how do you assess the danger right now from all these various and sundry directions, essentially?

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Extremely high, extremely high, because what we have is a convergence of different threat vectors. In other words, the simultaneity of them. We have both the persistent threat of foreign terrorism. We have domestic violent extremism, and we also have the malevolent...

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Excellent actions of of nation states. Whether it's the cyber attacks emanating from the People's Republic of China. Whether it's Iran's persistent effort to avenge the assassination of Soleimani. Whether it's Russia's interest in retaliating for American support of Ukraine. An important ally. So these, those are three, what I would describe as primary, but not certainly exclusive threat factors. A co-existent.

• 15:46Kara Swisher?

  So let's not leave out the drones. You've had quite a busy last few months. There's been a large number of mysterious drone sightings, especially in New Jersey in recent months. In December, Trump posted on Truth Social that the drones should be shot down if the government doesn't know where they're from. You've been calling on Congress to expand DHS's authority to deal with drones for years. There's all kinds of issues of people being hurt on the ground. But why hasn't the Biden administration been able to get this done? Do you think Trump is right? Is shooting down drones the way to go?

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Well, a couple of things. First of all, with respect to the drone sightings in New Jersey. Actually, the existence of drones flying in the airspace is not an anomaly. Drones are being flown all over the country all the time. And so I think that that was a, if you will, a non-event. And I will say that it is a fair question to ask whether the government communicated robustly enough and swiftly enough to tamp down what became.

• 16:49Kara Swisher?

  A phenomenon.

• 16:50Speaker 00

  A phenomenon.

• 16:52Kara Swisher?

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  Number one. Number two, we have advocated to Congress to expand authorities to align with the expansive use of drones as well as the increasing sophistication of them. Congress has not acted. That is most unfortunate. Third, when one shoots down a drone, one better be sure that one is shooting down a drone in a responsible and safe manner. Because quite. Frankly, certain drones are heavy, are big. And if they fall to the ground, they can cause a lot of damage, including a loss of human life.

• 17:32Kara Swisher?

  So you would not advocate shooting down drones indiscriminately, correct?

• 17:36Speaker 00

  I would not advocate shooting down drones indiscriminately.

• 17:40Kara Swisher?

  Why hasn't Congress passed that, the drone, you know, the ability for you to regulate drones in a more responsible way?

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Well, we're not at risk of overstating Congress's inability to act in areas that require action. Be that as it may, some concerns have been expressed about an invasion of privacy in our seeking drone authority, and I think that is actually a misperception.

• 18:08Kara Swisher?

  That you want to use the drones to spy on people, presumably?

• 18:11Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 18:11Kara Swisher?

  Correct.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  Correct. I just think it's a mistaken concern.

• 18:17Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 18:27Speaker 02

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• 19:11Kara Swisher?

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• 21:31Kara Swisher?

  Let's talk about the "elf in the room" immigration. Throughout your tenure, you were attacked on the right and the left on immigration. You've sort of become this cartoon character in many ways. Liberals complained that you were upholding Trump's immigration policies. Conservatives accused you of not complying with federal immigration laws. Last year, after one failed attempt, the Republican-led House voted to impeach you. It's the first time that's happened to a cabinet secretary in nearly 150 years. Congratulations for that. Immigration has been called the "third rail" of US politics. You knew how controversial it was going to be going in, but you seem surprised at this pushback. Why?

• 22:08Speaker 00

  First of all, immigration has always been an electric and a divisive issue politically. So I did know going in that it would be so, that this would not be an anomalous time. I was prepared for a divisive issue. I will say this, that the extent of the divisiveness and how that divisiveness manifested itself did surprise me, but nevertheless, I stayed the course. And I will say that my ability to endure it is predicated on a very simple fact.

• 22:47Speaker 00

  And when one has 100% confidence in the integrity of one's decisions, decision-making, then one can take the heat.

• 22:56Kara Swisher?

  Take the heat. Either side bother you more than the other?

• 23:00Speaker 00

  That's an interesting question, Kara. I would say that there were times when both sides, if you will, crossed a line of decency.

• 23:13Kara Swisher?

  Any particular thing you would point to?

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Well, I think that there were certain things said and propagated on social media that were extremely pernicious and, of course, absolutely false. And that has been on one side of the equation. On the other side of the equation, an invasion of my personal Life is unacceptable.

• 23:42Kara Swisher?

  Okay, let's talk about the decision making, though. You've been touting positive immigration numbers in your other exit interviews. That number of migrants at the border have been declining for the past six months. And ICE deportations reportedly jumped to a 10-year-high last year, over 270,000. But President Biden waited until last June to address the broken immigration system through executive actions after Trump tanked the bipartisan border bill, which Kamala Harris talked about quite a bit. Was it too little, too late? Were you frustrated it took too long? And were you pushing for Biden to act sooner?

• 24:16Speaker 00

  Carol, let me, first, on the number of removals. The term used to be deportations. But the number of removals and returns, 270,000 is from ICE custody. But if one takes a look at...

• 24:28Kara Swisher?

  I said ICE, yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, we had over 700,000 removals and returns, the most in, I think, 14 years. A couple of things. The president took executive action in June of last year, in June of 2024. And we swiftly and effectively executed it. Let's think about where we were in 2021. We were in the midst still of the pandemic. And the public health authority that sprung from that outbreak of the pandemic, a public health authority that President-elect and former President Trump actually instituted,

• 25:09Speaker 00

  was under Title 42 of the United States Code, an authority held by Health and Human Services. Everyone was advocating that we continue to enforce that public health authority, and we did so. And we actually lifted that authority in May of 2023. And then we turned immediately to seeking supplemental funding for what everyone agrees is a broken immigration system. We sought supplemental funding for that broken system from Congress.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Didn't get it. We tried again, didn't get it. Entered into the bipartisan Senate negotiations, which yielded a transformative piece of legislation. That was then politically torpedoed, and the president moved swiftly with the executive action. So that's one leg of the stool, if you will. Secondly, our ability to effectively and swiftly implement the president's proclamation, the executive order that he took in June of last year, was built over time. We did not have, the system did not have the capacity to effectively implement it in 21, in 2022.

• 26:27Speaker 00

  And we're speaking of the ability to remove or return individuals to countries all over the world swiftly. The ability to have the transportation assets, the soft-sided facilities that we built, modernizing our systems, building safe and lawful pathways. And why that last part is so important? Because as we restrict asylum at the border, we still have to adhere to our country's proud traditions and values of providing humanitarian relief to those in need who qualify under our laws. And so we built those pathways, whether they be labor pathways negotiated with Canada and Spain,

• 27:10Speaker 00

  whether they be parole processes for Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans, whether it be safe mobility offices in a number of countries in Latin America, whether it be rebuilding our refugee system so we can admit 100,000 refugees into the United States, a system by which I and my family benefited. So it is a mosaic.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  of factors that really have to be considered when one looks at the timeline.

• 27:41Kara Swisher?

  So you didn't want him to act sooner? Did you feel like the Biden administration did not see this coming? I mean, Trump tanking the bipartisan border bill should not have been a surprise. I mean, especially in an election year.

• 27:53Speaker 00

  I'll leave it to the political scientists to speak of whether it was too little, too late. And the reason I say that is because there are different theories about the importance, at the end of the day, of the immigration issue in the presidential and other downstream, down-ballot elections. Many pundits believe that the economy was the single most important reason, full stop. But politically, too little, too late? I think it'd be fair to say, from a political perspective.

• 28:27Kara Swisher?

  Speaking of that, how interesting you say that, because there were three House Republicans that broke ranks to vote no in the final impeachment vote. One of them was former Colorado Congressman Ken Buck. He sent us a question for you. Have a listen.

• 28:40Speaker 06

  Secretary Mayorkas, during your tenure as the Secretary of Homeland Security, and as a result of your policies regarding border security, the number of migrants crossing our southern border increased dramatically, and the placement of those migrants into the interior of this country put an enormous burden on cities and states. The number of migrant children brought into the country by human traffickers increased dramatically. The amount of fentanyl brought across the southern border increased dramatically, resulting in a severe increase in 18- to 40-year-old deaths. The lack of border security and the related immigration issues were the primary reason that President-elect Trump used to win the November election.

• 29:24Speaker 06

  Will you accept responsibility for Trump's popular vote victory in November?

• 29:29Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  So Kara, let me.

• 29:31Kara Swisher?

  It is Ken Buck, but I think it's a fair question. I mean, he's saying, you were saying economy. He's saying, no, no, it's the migrants in the middle of cities.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  I am not going to posit what led to a Republican victory and a Democratic defeat. That is for political scientists. And as I mentioned, some have opined that the economy was the most important reason. But let me break down, let me break down former Congressman Buck's statements.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  First of all, let me put immigration and what we have experienced in its proper context.

• 30:12Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  The world is experiencing the highest level of human displacement since World War II. And what our border experienced is not exclusive to our southern border. It is a phenomenon that countries around the world have experienced and are experiencing. Number, number one. Number two, the trend in displacement did not begin in 2021. In 2018, there were approximately 500,000 individuals encountered at our southern border. And in 2019, that number almost doubled.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  The path of increasing displacement because of events in countries of origin was underway. And then, of course, the COVID-19 pandemic broke out, which changed human behavior in a myriad of ways, including the behavior of individuals willing to flee their home countries. Number one. Number two, the fentanyl crisis was a crisis that was building for years before our administration. And we have seen more than 70,000 overdose deaths in a single year.

• 31:34Speaker 00

  I believe in 2019 or 2020, there were over 50,000 overdose deaths. And let's not conflate migration with the scourge of fentanyl. Fentanyl is smuggled into our country predominantly through our ports of entry in vehicles, commercial or passenger. And so let's not conflate the two. That is inaccurate.

• 32:02Kara Swisher?

  Migrants coming over with, with drugs.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. And so I take issue with former Congressman Buck's statements in at least those regards.

• 32:15Kara Swisher?

  He is not the only one who, though, wants to hold you personally responsible. I've never quite seen anything like this. On January 14th, the Oklahoma State School Superintendent filed a lawsuit against you, and Peter Flores, the Deputy Director of Vice, for $474 million, which is that he claims failed border policies have cost the state. Any comment on this?

• 32:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 32:34Kara Swisher?

  This is somewhat unprecedented. This is somewhat...

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Look, the rhetoric of politics has been descending for years now. Regrettably, we continue to see that trend. And the reality is that because of my position, I've been out in front as a representative of the administration. And so those two forces combine, and we see the results. But Congressman Buck also spoke of what the cities and communities in the interior of the United States experienced.

• 33:13Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  Where a focus should be is and should have been at an increased level is the fact that a governor of one state...

• 33:24Kara Swisher?

  Florida.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  No, actually, Texas.

• 33:28Kara Swisher?

  Texas, okay.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  And it's true of others. You are correct to cite Florida. You're absolutely right. I had one particularly in mind because of unmatched scale and scope of this. Deliberately refused to communicate, collaborate, and coordinate with interior cities and communities, and instead unilaterally used migrants, vulnerable individuals, as political pawns and bused them to those interior cities for the express purpose of wreaking havoc. That is not a model of governance.

• 34:10Kara Swisher?

  Did it work?

• 34:12Speaker 00

  It seems to have worked to a degree in terms of the political impact that the governor sought. However, when you ask me if it worked from a societal perspective, from the perspective of national interest, from the perspective of responsible and rational governance, calamity.

• 34:35Kara Swisher?

  Calamity. I don't think that was, I think that was not his concern. Let's look forward. This episode is airing on the day of President Trump's inauguration. Trump has made a lot of promises for day one, including closing the border, reinstating travel bans, suspending refugee admissions to the country, ending birthright citizenship, beginning mass deportations. Which of these policies is most concerning to you? Are there any you think are good that would have been useful for you?

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Well, look, the last pre-pandemic year of President Trump's administration, the numbers at the border are averaging lower on a daily basis than they were in 2019, and at times in 2020 even during a pandemic year. So the border is more secure now than it was then. You referenced a series of policies. I am deeply concerned about all of them in certain regards. I'm unclear as to what actually will materialize.

• 35:41Kara Swisher?

  I was going to ask that next.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  Because, for example, I have also heard statements that, for example, they are going to focus their deportation efforts on individuals who pose a public safety or national security concern. Well, that is precisely what we have done. So that would be status quo, and something tells me that the status quo will not prevail.

• 36:04Kara Swisher?

  Right. So Republicans also now control Congress. Last week, the House passed the Lake and Riley Act. The bill would give states more authority over undocumented immigrants. It would mandate federal detention without bail for immigrants arrested of even petty crimes like theft over $100. This is not what you were talking about, including immigrants who have visas and other authorization, and it would state the ability to bring immigration lawsuits against DHS. What are your thoughts on this bill?

• 36:30Speaker 00

  So certain elements I support. As I mentioned, people who present a public safety threat should be removed. Individuals who have committed crimes in certain circumstances should absolutely be detained pending their immigration enforcement proceedings. I have concerns about some of the authorities granted to states in terms of litigation efforts. I also, there's going to have to be additional resourcing of the government to bring this act to life. Otherwise, it could actually create a law enforcement weakness.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  So, for example, if individuals who have committed minor offenses have to be detained, unless that is a funded mandate, we are only funded for 35,000 to 40,000 detention beds. So are we going to displace people who have committed worse crimes?

• 37:30Kara Swisher?

  So this is individuals who are accused but not convicted of petty crimes? Yeah, meaning you're putting non-dangerous people in...

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Non-violent people, and perhaps that could displace an individual who has, in fact, committed or is accused of committing a violent crime. It's a zero-sum game with 35,000 to 40,000 detention beds. And so a mandate to do X must be a funded mandate. And so I expect that Congress will fund the federal government to actually fulfill the mandate, which has not been the case for decades now.

• 38:08Kara Swisher?

  So on a personal note, you were the first immigrant to head DHS. Your mother fled the Nazis to get to Cuba, and your parents then fled the Castro regime to come to the US when you were just a baby. My grandfather came here as a baby also. From your perspective, what has it meant for you to oversee immigration? Do you empathize with what migrants are going through right now as they wait for these policies to be enacted? And has it been, I hate to say this, a weakness for you because you've been attacked for it, which has been unusual in my estimation?

• 38:38Speaker 00

  Kara, it has not been a weakness at all. I was instilled, my parents instilled in me, a deep sense of understanding of what it means to be a refugee, of what it means to be displaced. From one's home, what it means to lose everything. I understand that. I will tell you that there are farmworkers in my home state of California, parents that are breaking their backs to earn a living, however modest, to be able to present opportunities

• 39:21Speaker 00

  for their US citizen born children, opportunities that the parents never had. And those parents very well may have been doing that backbreaking work for decades. And it is they who help put food on our tables. And will those parents now fear returning to the fields and picking crops under arduous conditions and making their modest living to deliver a better life for their children? I have an understanding of that very important human question

• 40:03Speaker 00

  and the consequences of fear and the materialization of the reason for that fear.

• 40:12Speaker 07

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 40:21Speaker 07

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• 42:17Speaker 07

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• 43:03Kara Swisher?

  So I want to switch gears a bit. CISA, the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency is one of the agencies you're responsible for, Secretary of Homeland Security. Project 2025 calls for dismantling it. Obviously, the person coming after you is Kristi Noem. What impact would that have on our ability to confront cyber threats? And just for people to understand, CISA was widely criticized by Republicans for allegedly colluding with social media companies about disinformation on their platform. This is untrue. They claim that Americans, especially conservatives, are being censored. This is also untrue. As we talked about, X and Meta basically ended their voluntary third-party fact-checking system and content moderation programs. So what is the danger for CISA being dismantled,

• 43:47Kara Swisher?

  essentially? To me, it's a critical agency run by professionals.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  You are 100% correct. It is a vitally important agency run by professionals. And to dismantle that agency now, at a time when cyber attacks have only increased in frequency and gravity, at a time when the telecommunications industry is trying to climb out of the impacts of Salt Typhoon.

• 44:23Kara Swisher?

  These are attacks by the Chinese government, yeah.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  Attacks by the Chinese government that has exposed the personal information of American citizens, when ransomware is on the rise persistently, cyber hacks that are undertaken for profit, when our critical infrastructure is under attack, not just from a cyber threat, but a myriad of other threats by adverse nation-states. What an irresponsible measure that would be. All predicated, by the way, as you noted, false narratives.

• 45:06Kara Swisher?

  Right. So from a national security perspective, it's very dangerous because they were We're helping a lot of state and federal officials also. So, speaking of China, as you said, we're recording this on January 16th, as I said, just ahead of the TikTok ban going in, it's a law and it's going to be in effect. Reportedly, Trump is considering executive order to extend the deadline. To me, that's just a press release on better letterhead. The TikTok CEO plans to attend his inauguration. I think he has very little moves here. It's a law and the companies will either abide by the law. Even if he doesn't enforce it, it's, they could be held liable later. Things may take a different turn by the time this airs. The Biden administration is even looking for a way to delay it at least.

• 45:49Kara Swisher?

  You've maintained, I have, I wrote a column five years ago talking about this, that TikTok is a national security threat, but a lot of users don't seem to care. They're flocking to another Chinese social media app, Red Note. Is banning TikTok just a game of whack a mole? How do you look at the TikTok ban right now? It should have been broader in my estimation, but.

• 46:08Speaker 00

  I think the TikTok ban is a national imperative, a national security imperative. What will actually materialize? I have heard President-elect Trump's statements that he actually wants to go in a different direction. I don't know what that means for the collision course.

• 46:30Kara Swisher?

  Well, he was against it before he was for it.

• 46:32Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 46:33Kara Swisher?

  He used a John Kerry phrase.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  So, I don't know what will be the outcome of this collision course of intent versus statutory authority. I think to some extent, the pivot to a different Chinese app does seem to reflect a whack a mole phenomenon. And then the question is, do we continue to whack the moles? Or do we take a step back and say, okay, what could we do more holistically to address this, this challenge? And I don't know what the answer is.

• 47:07Kara Swisher?

  You don't have any, what would you do if you could waive your want?

• 47:11Speaker 00

  I will need to get back to you on that. I don't, I don't want to answer precipitously, but I will tell you for right now, a whack-a-mole it is.

• 47:21Kara Swisher?

  So, last few questions. The Department of Homeland Security encompasses two dozen agencies with around 260,000 employees. As we already highlighted with all these very different things we're talking about, immigration, drones, everything, emergency services, FEMA, Secret Service, cybersecurity. What do you make of calls to break up or at least significantly reform the department that are coming from both the right and the left? And how would you do it if you had to?

• 47:44Speaker 00

  Kara, I disagree with the, the interest in breaking apart the Department of Homeland Security. It was brought together very quickly in the aftermath of the 9/11 tragedy. However, what I have spoken of over the past four years is an increased convergence of Homeland Security and national security, especially in a far more globalized world. I actually think that the, the department is more fit for purpose now than ever before.

• 48:25Speaker 00

  There is an increased need for the different agencies to be under one roof because so many different equities are brought to bear when we have to address certain challenges. There's a greater level of symbiosis between and among the different agencies.

• 48:47Kara Swisher?

  Some see it as a turducken. It's like too complicated. And of course, before 9/11, they were too separate, right?

• 48:53Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right. But there's, there's an intertwining. There's a symbiosis and there's a cohesion between and among different agencies within the Department of Homeland Security, depending on the events and depending on the efforts.

• 49:07Kara Swisher?

  Like FEMA and Secret Service? I don't necessarily see...

• 49:10Speaker 00

  Well, let me give you an example. The hurricanes and tornadoes that have struck different parts of our country. FEMA is on point in supporting... The state and local authorities as they address extreme weather events. Um, the United States Coast Guard lends tremendous search and rescue capabilities. TSA is able to pivot as it needs to recalibrate some of the processes it follows in the travel environment. Those are three agencies. Quickly, I just rattle off, off the bat. When the Secret Service is on point for the security of an incredibly complex international

• 49:54Speaker 00

  event, uh, the UN General Assembly in New York City, we draw upon different resources from the Department of Homeland Security to secure that effort.

• 50:05Kara Swisher?

  Sure.

• 50:05Speaker 00

  I can continue to describe the cohesiveness, uh, of our department. I think, uh, these agencies belong under one roof and I do not support breaking it apart.

• 50:16Kara Swisher?

  Can I ask you one follow up and then I have a final question. You were under attack after the assassination attempt on then candidate Trump. An independent panel found there were deep flaws in the agency. The head of Secret Service, uh, Kimberly Cheadle resigned. Do you think, as some said, that FEMA and the Secret Service should report directly to the White House?

• 50:32Speaker 00

  First of all, uh, I think those are missions that are not political. And I think the apolitical nature and chain of command should remain, number one. Number two, I do not think it to be efficient for the White House to oversee operational agencies, which those are. The Secret Service, by the way, uh, not only has its protective mission, but also has an important investigative, criminal investigative function. I do not think that the further balkanization of government, um, uh, serves, uh, efficiency or justice.

• 51:10Kara Swisher?

  Okay. Last question. We talked a variety of threats faced in the U.S. Let's be clear, they aren't your problem anymore. At the time of this taping, Trump's pick to, uh, lead DHS is South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem. We'll see if she gets approved. Of everything we talked about, what are the biggest challenges you're handing off to her? What do you think she should focus on first? And based on your conversations with her, I'd assume you've had them. What do you think she will focus on? And then what are you doing? You spent 30 years in government service on and off under both Obama and Biden. But first, the first part and then the last part.

• 51:41Speaker 00

  Kara, I would return to where we started. The greatest responsibility of this department is the safety and security of the American people. I think the threat landscape is dynamic and is a heightened one, as we discussed. And I think that is a primary area of focus for the incoming administration, not just the new secretary, but the entire federal government, because it's a multi-agency effort. I have been very impressed and encouraged by my conversations with Governor Noem in terms of her substantive engagement on the issues.

• 52:25Speaker 00

  We have discussed the January 1 terrorist attack. We have discussed the wildfires in California, and we have spoken a number of times. And I am rooting for success. That is not to say that I embrace all of the policies as they have been expressed publicly, but I root for the success of the mission of this department.

• 52:53Kara Swisher?

  And what are you going to do?

• 52:55Speaker 00

  I am going to explore my opportunities.

• 53:00Kara Swisher?

  Back to California?

• 53:01Speaker 00

  I don't, right now, have that plan. That is not my plan right now. I will be geographically mobile. We'll see what the future brings, but I'm very proud of what we've done over the past four years.

• 53:16Kara Swisher?

  Okay. Secretary Mayorkas, thank you so much, and thank you for your service.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Thank you, Kara. Thanks so much.

• 53:27Kara Swisher?

  On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yokum, Jolie Myers, Megan Burney, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are geographically mobile, like the secretary. If not, you're playing Whack-a-Mole on Red Note. Go wherever you listen to your podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

• 54:11Speaker 02

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