James Gunn

James Gunn (Superman, Guardians of the Galaxy, The Suicide Squad) is a director, screenwriter, and co-chair of DC Studios. James joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the enduring impact of Super Friends, why people love the fact that Superman can beat up God, and how seeing the Sex Pistols as a kid altered life. James and Dax talk about once getting into such an intense argument with his dad about Prince that it almost came to blows, falling in love with and relating to the monsters in horror movies, and the dream of mixing animals and outcasts in his work. James explains how transformative it was to be compensated for doing something creative, why Guardians of the Galaxy has a reach beyond superhero movies, and how his most difficult moments made way for him to feel ok for the first time in his life. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert Experts on Expert. Round two of Superman Week.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 0:08Dax Shepard?

  We have the esteemed filmmaker, James Gunn on. He's a producer, a screenwriter, a musician, and the co-CEO of DC Studios. He's made the best superhero movies. I mean, get real. Guardians of the Galaxy.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  Uh, Groot.

• 0:24Dax Shepard?

  Groot.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Shout out, Groot.

• 0:26Dax Shepard?

  The Suicide Squad, Peacemaker, Slither, Super, and now, of course, Superman.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  This was a very fun interview.

• 0:34Dax Shepard?

  This was a very fun interview.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  I really enjoyed it. And if you stick around, if you watch.

• 0:38Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah. If you watch, I am, well, shit, I don't want to ruin.

• 0:42Speaker 01

  We don't want to ruin it.

• 0:43Dax Shepard?

  I'm in a, ah, you'll hear.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  There's a visual.

• 0:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Please enjoy James Gunn. We are supported by Audible. Thanks to Audible for being the presenting sponsor of today's episode. We could all use an escape these days, and the best way to do it, Audible. With over 1 million titles in their selection, there's more to imagine with Audible. We get support from Quince.

• 1:06Speaker 01

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• 1:26Dax Shepard?

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• 1:42Speaker 01

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• 1:53Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm going to tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California. And I'm so excited. And I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel-quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here. And it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 2:27Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Gleepran. Foundo is a once-daily-prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced-calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems

• 3:11Dax Shepard?

  to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  Foundo should not be used with other GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Foundo is safe and effective for use in children. Don't take Foundo if you're allergic to it or if you or someone in your family had majorary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine euplasia syndrome type 2. Stop and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, or severe stomach pain. Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. Taking Foundo with an insulin or sulfonylurea may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include diarrhea, nausea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems. Once-Daily Foundo is available by prescription only in 0.8-milligram, 2.5-milligram,

• 3:59Speaker 02

  5.5-milligram, 9-milligram, 14.5-milligram, and 17.2-milligram tablets. Learn more at foundo.lilly.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundo.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  I saw that there's a tour bus outside.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  That's Dex, he calls that Big Brown. He travels around in that thing.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  Really?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he'll tell you all about it. I'll be very excited to talk about Big Brown. There's a big surprise for you coming your way.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  I wonder what that is?

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Wow, everything's normal.

• 4:45Dax Shepard?

  This is the most odd time.

• 4:46Speaker 03

  I fucked up testing so bad.

• 4:48Dax Shepard?

  That's what I was hoping you would recognize immediately.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, Jesus.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  This has never happened before.

• 4:54Dax Shepard?

  Wow, that's pretty cool. It's hard to tell the young Superman story with a 50-year-old actor. But could that be its own interesting element?

• 5:04Speaker 03

  We could do like the rehearsal.

• 5:07Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sure, sure.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  So it could make you small and make a bunch of giant things around you. Well, I wanna be bigger. I thought you'd be like the four-year-old Superman.

• 5:18Dax Shepard?

  I would do that as well, like a little rattle.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. Do you remember in Super Friends: Hall of Justice? Well, that's actually based on the train station in Cincinnati, the Hall of Justice, from Super Friends.

• 5:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it is?

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that stayed the sort of model for what the Hall of Justice has been through the years in the comics and other animated shows. And we shot there for Superman. The group of the nascent Justice League, they aren't quite the Justice League, are in that actual building.

• 5:47Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna be honest, I'm not a superhero person. I didn't read the comics. The one thing I loved is I watched Super Friends every morning before school, and I loved Super Friends. Do you know about Super Friends?

• 5:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're too young for Super Friends.

• 5:58Dax Shepard?

  Superman and all of his bros and gals. He got Wonder Woman's in the mix. Basically, the Justice League of America for little kids.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Oh, cute.

• 6:07Dax Shepard?

  That was a Saturday morning show, back when Saturday morning shows were everything.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Did they invent any characters on that that then became big characters?

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Wonder Twins. Patch of Chief, they've gone on to become in the comics.

• 6:19Dax Shepard?

  And they were called like Junior Friends, the Wonder Twins. And they were largely useless. They could work in tandem. One could become any animal and one could take the shape of any kind of ice.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  Do you remember all this?

• 6:29Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  Cause I remember very little of it.

• 6:32Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, this is the only one I really had, so it's really seared in, but she'd be like, I'll be a, um, mastodon and then you'll be a bucket of water and I'll blow the water.

• 6:40Speaker 03

  That I remember. I remember Wonder Twins. I just don't remember that they were called Junior Friends.

• 6:45Dax Shepard?

  In your defense, as I was looking up Super Friends this morning, I was reminded they were lower tier. They were like probies in a motorcycle gang. They were kind of earning their stripes.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Being any kind of ice, that's a horrible superpower.

• 6:58Dax Shepard?

  Well, he could make people slide around a lot. You'd be shocked how much ice can save the day.

• 7:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's an X-Men named Iceman who's pretty popular.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Pretty powerful?

• 7:07Dax Shepard?

  He can make ice things that slide around, can shoot ice at you.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  You guys both say sliding a lot and that seems to be the only thing.

• 7:14Speaker 03

  Sliding's fun.

• 7:15Dax Shepard?

  Well, even the strongest person in the world, if they're on ice and can't find purchase. Now, I did get curious. The Super Friends and Hall of Justice is virtually Avengers. Does it predate Avengers?

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Way before. The Justice League existed before most of the Marvel superheroes.

• 7:32Dax Shepard?

  So is DC the first?

• 7:33Speaker 03

  DC is the first. Superman's the first superhero. He invented superheroes. So Superman was invented in 1938 by Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster in Cleveland, Ohio, where we shot Metropolis and Superman. They were two high school kids who created this concept that now is so pervasive in culture throughout the world. We shot in Cleveland because Cleveland has a lot of old art deco architecture. And then we just built up around that, but it has tons of beautiful interiors, beautiful exteriors. There's actually a lot of beautiful stuff there. And then we also shot in Cincinnati because that's where the train station is. There's a place called Terminal Tower and that's supposedly where Joe first imagined Superman jumping over a tall building in a single bound.

• 8:17Speaker 03

  That building is prominently featured in our movie.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 8:21Speaker 03

  He couldn't fly at first, Superman. He couldn't. He could leap very far. He was very strong. And I don't think bullets hurt him, but he couldn't shoot beams out of his eyes. They kept adding powers to Superman as time went on.

• 8:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because if you think about the physics of the original premise, which is just he's stronger than everyone. And those physics are known, but when you introduce flying, that still doesn't have any explanation.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  No.

• 8:45Dax Shepard?

  It's very logical. I mean, he just can, but his strength wouldn't get you that.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  Is it his cape?

• 8:51Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Nothing to do with the cape, okay?

• 8:54Speaker 03

  I personally like to think, well, okay, what if this was real? So in the movie, we deal with, why are the glasses a good disguise? We actually deal with that because it always bothered me as a child.

• 9:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  We deal with, he's strong, but he's not as strong as he was. He can't punch through a planet like sometimes he gets to be that strong.

• 9:15Dax Shepard?

  Great.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  I don't want him to be that strong.

• 9:16Dax Shepard?

  Good, I don't either.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  This is a difficult thing with Superman fans. Most people, when they say, why do they like Batman more than Superman? It's because Superman is just too powerful.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  It's like a cop out.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  There's no stakes, but a lot of Superman fans like the fact that he can beat up God.

• 9:31Dax Shepard?

  They want Zeus.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  They want the most powerful being in the universe. Not only is it hard to have stakes in a universe where he's the most powerful, it's also difficult to make other heroes mean anything at all. How much does Green Lantern mean if Superman can punch through his?

• 9:48Dax Shepard?

  So in my 10-year-old mind, the way I had come up with who was top tier Apex superhero, I was like, it has to be Green Lantern because he could just make kryptonite.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  Green Lantern can't make different elements. He can make constructs. He can make shapes.

• 10:02Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  He can't make iron. He can't make gold. Metamorpho, however, who is in the movie, can make elements. He can make anything.

• 10:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay, because there was one episode of Super Friends that was great where it was like a reverse evil world. They would go there and there was evil Superman and then Green Lantern had to go fight Superman.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  They're friends in real life.

• 10:21Dax Shepard?

  They're Hall of Justice.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  They're best friends.

• 10:23Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, they're super duper friends.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:25Dax Shepard?

  Because they're friends. Okay, now Cleveland, for folks who haven't been, now, coming from Detroit, it's a sister city, especially in its art. You too from St. Louis, you know, there's like a handful of these formerly robust industry centers.

• 10:39Speaker 03

  St. Louis is the only city in the United States, I believe, big city where its population is smaller than it was in 1900.

• 10:45Dax Shepard?

  That's crazy.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think St. Louis is a small city in a huge metropolitan area. So the metropolitan area is over 2 million. But the city itself, I would imagine, is well under.

• 10:54Dax Shepard?

  And I presume you were in a suburb there?

• 10:55Speaker 03

  I was. I grew up in a place called Manchester, Missouri, which was rural. When I was young, I had soybean fields and horses that lived behind me. But as time went on, it became super suburbia, which it is now.

• 11:07Dax Shepard?

  And your dad was a lawyer?

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:09Dax Shepard?

  What type of lawyer?

• 11:10Speaker 03

  He did corporate law, but mostly dealt with health. So he dealt with big hospitals and things like that.

• 11:16Dax Shepard?

  And you're one of six kids?

• 11:18Speaker 03

  One of six kids, yeah.

• 11:19Dax Shepard?

  And what order are you?

• 11:20Speaker 03

  I'm number one. Six kids in seven years. And my little sister passed away, so there's actually seven of them.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 11:26Dax Shepard?

  How old was she when she passed away?

• 11:27Speaker 03

  Just born.

• 11:28Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Not that there's any good version of it, but that beats two.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  Yes, it does.

• 11:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 11:35Dax Shepard?

  It's a winner!

• 11:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:38Dax Shepard?

  So wow, mom went back to back to back to back. This is very Irish.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  Her womb just fell out.

• 11:43Dax Shepard?

  There's smoke billowing out.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Talk about a superhero, my gosh.

• 11:49Dax Shepard?

  There should be superwomb.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  I don't remember my mother, like she was just always taking care of a baby.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 03

  This is true. I remember my siblings, my friends. We kind of got to do whatever we wanted to do. I don't really remember my parents very much because my dad was always working. He was always gone. And my mother was just always taking care of babies or cleaning. My neighbors who lived next door to us for 30 something years, never saw my mom without fully made up already.

• 12:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, she's like an ideal housewife.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  Six kids, never anything on the floor, ever. Everything completely clean.

• 12:25Dax Shepard?

  In its place.

• 12:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:26Dax Shepard?

  How have you now matured into an adult? Have you taken on that? Or are you messy?

• 12:30Speaker 03

  I'm definitely not like my mother.

• 12:32Dax Shepard?

  And as the oldest, were you? Taking on the role of defending the little brothers at school.

• 12:38Speaker 03

  We all did that. My family was tight, for sure. If somebody picked on my little brother, they'd get beat up.

• 12:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, how many boys?

• 12:44Speaker 03

  Five boys, one girl.

• 12:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's too many boys.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Where's the girl in there?

• 12:49Speaker 03

  She's in the middle. She's number three. Her life was hell.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  She and I are incredibly close, but we were not nice to her growing up.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 12:57Dax Shepard?

  How could she be?

• 12:57Speaker 03

  She was the outsider.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  And she was always so loud and well spoken and powerful that it was difficult. If you think about the things I'm the most guilty about is just picking on my sister.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's chicken or the egg. She might have been powerful because she was amongst all these boys and she had to keep up.

• 13:15Speaker 03

  I mean, she just always wanted to be a guy, you know, she was always trying to pee, standing up and all of this stuff.

• 13:21Dax Shepard?

  I plagued my little sister with this, too.

• 13:23Speaker 01

  She has two older brothers as well.

• 13:25Dax Shepard?

  But again, what the result was is she was leaving someone's house and she saw a man starting a fire on the side of the road by the Getty Center. She had her boyfriend call the police and then she wanted to make sure he didn't get away. And then she tackled the guy and held the guy while the police arrived.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  You saved all of Los Angeles by picking on your sister.

• 13:45Dax Shepard?

  I think by modeling such toxic masculine attributes. I think I may have saved at least a swath.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 13:51Dax Shepard?

  And if the Getty's Foundation wanted to thank me with a hundred million dollars, they should. But what was the vibe? I mean, I know ultimately we get into movies and stuff, but what kind of group of boys were you? Because in my town, I drive Monica crazy with this ad nauseam, but a group of five boys, it was gonna be the most predictable thing ever. They were gonna get crazier as they got younger. And in my town, anytime there were five boys, they were constantly fighting somebody. Someone had pissed someone off. What was the vibe?

• 14:18Speaker 01

  It was a rough and tumble.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  I grew up in a place where there were fights. That was always a part of something. But I was never really a sports kid. My brothers all played sports. I was just always an artist and played music and theater. I was a punk rock kid. I heard the Sex Pistols. I saw them on TV when I was 11 years old and it fucked me up. It was so cool.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  What about it?

• 14:40Speaker 03

  It was like nothing I had ever seen before in my entire life. Remember things visually, even though they're not the way they are. Totally aside, I was talking to Ryan Coogler the other day. We were talking about how great the Black Panther premiere was. And I was with all his friends who weren't there at the time. And I said, yeah, I know this isn't the way it happened. But the way in my memory it happened was that people were so happy that they were literally doing somersaults and flipping around in the aisles.

• 15:08Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 15:09Speaker 03

  That's really what I remember. That's not true. Wow. It's like, I remember the vibe and then I remember I visually turn it into something else. When I saw the Sex Pistols, it was like seeing the edge of the horizon roll down to see a completely other planet that I didn't know existed right in front of me, another world.

• 15:28Dax Shepard?

  Well, Sid Vicious is cut up. He's bleeding a lot of the times he performs. He's got some safety pins in his lips and in his chin. You're seeing guys with some body modification.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  The rage of Johnny Rotten as he sang. But also, there was the crowd, yes, and the safety pins and people and the anarchy symbols. And it was not something I liked. I was kind of scared by it. Yeah. But I was totally intrigued and I couldn't stop thinking about it.

• 15:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, there's overlap between horror movies and early punk rock. These were like post-apocalyptic figures that were in real life.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I couldn't get it out of my head. And then eventually I bought the Sex Pistols LP. I was a little Roman Catholic kid. Because he's like, you know, I am the Antichrist. And it was like doing something really bad. Yeah. You know, it's like looking at porn almost, except for your angry little rebellious soul. So, uh, that changed everything. And so all the kids I started hanging out with were the punk rock kids. All the music I listened to was the punk rock and the early new wave stuff. That became my identity. That's the way I dressed. You know, I wore the ripped up T-shirts. I shaved the sides of my head.

• 16:35Dax Shepard?

  I did it presumably nine years after you or eight years after you. People were very into my look.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  It was absolutely not acceptable.

• 16:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay, it was rejected.

• 16:45Speaker 03

  So I went to an all-boys Jesuit competitive high school in St. Louis and there was me and my friends, the fact that we existed was crazy. And so we knew every other punk or new wave kid in the city. We were all friends. We had all somehow gotten there through media into being the small group of people in St. Louis. So on weekends, it was great because I felt like a king.

• 17:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, would you go to shows?

• 17:15Speaker 03

  Go to shows. There was like a dance club called The Animal House that had three floors and on the top floor was all the black music. The middle floor was the major like cover bands that were playing like Night Ranger and shit. And then on the lower level was our place. It was all the alternative. Sometimes we'd go up to the top floor, but we were rarely ever in the middle floor. Because rap was also starting around that time. I was into that as well. And I was into Prince. I once got into an argument with my dad over Christmas about Michael Jackson and Prince. That was so angry that we almost came to blows.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Is it too mainstream, too happy?

• 17:53Speaker 03

  I like Prince's music better. I don't like his music that much. It's not about anything other than

• 17:57Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  Billy Jean is okay. The off-the-wall stuff is better. I like Jackson 5, but I like Prince way better.

• 18:06Dax Shepard?

  The irony was that Prince was much scarier to parents because he was much more overtly sexual.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  Sister. It was about having sex with his sister overtly.

• 18:14Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  God, the irony.

• 18:16Dax Shepard?

  Now, the irony, though, that Michael Jackson was the one that we all needed to be fucking worried about. Prince was largely not fucking because he was an opiate addict.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:24Dax Shepard?

  Don't sue me estate.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. Word is.

• 18:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  But I saw Prince on the Purple Rain tour, 10th row in Keel Auditorium in St. Louis.

• 18:33Dax Shepard?

  Wow, wow, wow, wow.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  I loved him.

• 18:35Dax Shepard?

  Now, back to being drawn to the sex business. You're also then obsessed with horror movies. So are you the type that, it might be counterintuitive, you might scare easily, but then your response to being scared is, and here's my question.

• 18:49Speaker 03

  Is it a stubbornness, like I need to not be afraid of that thing? There was something I liked about it as well as being scared. And I actually think my attraction to horror movies was different. Okay, what was that? I think I liked the monsters. So when I fell in love with horror movies, I was very young. The greatest movie ever to me was Abbott and Costello versus Frankenstein, because it had monsters and Abbott and Costello. So it was funny and still is a movie that I think is great. But I fell in love with the monsters. I liked Godzilla and I liked Frankenstein and the werewolf and Creature from the Black Lagoon. And I think I related to those monsters in a certain way. I felt outside. So I don't think it was 100% I like being scared. I did like being scared.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  But I think I was attracted to monsters. And that's the thing I've kept with me more than a love of being horrified. I have a very difficult time being scared in a movie. But I love monsters and creatures. Outcasts. Yeah. Yeah, you're mixing animals and outcasts is kind of a dream. Overlap. Yeah, I love animals. I love the innocence of animals. I love the humor.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Are you attracted to human monsters?

• 19:58Speaker 03

  No, I'm attracted to monsters that are actual.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  That are real monsters.

• 20:02Speaker 03

  Physical monsters. I don't care about Jeffrey Dahmer or something. I don't like that. He's a piece of shit.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  I'm the opposite.

• 20:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know what's funny is he's an outcast, but I'm not gonna include him as an outcast.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  You don't want him in the circle.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  He eats other outcasts. How do you get your hands on a 8mm camera? I can't remember where I got it from. I had two of them. I had a silent one and then I had a sound one. Does it record the audio on the film strip? Yeah, and so when you edit the film, frames are like this. So you have to cut with a splicer. But the film strip goes eight frames above where the picture is. Cause the sound goes through before the picture does. So I'd have to fucking cut.

• 20:48Dax Shepard?

  And then cut up and then put it up onto the thing.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  And then you taped that entire long fin?

• 20:54Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  Fuck that. You were doing that? You were at an evening?

• 20:57Dax Shepard?

  With a little cutter?

• 20:58Speaker 03

  A little splicer and a little machine that you watch the stuff go through.

• 21:02Dax Shepard?

  That must have gotten the girl so horny that you were doing that.

• 21:04Speaker 03

  Let me tell you. But I didn't play in bands, so I was all right.

• 21:08Dax Shepard?

  When do you start in, what's it called? The idiot? No, the icon.

• 21:12Speaker 03

  The idiot?

• 21:12Dax Shepard?

  The icon.

• 21:14Speaker 03

  I don't start the icons until I was at a high school.

• 21:16Dax Shepard?

  You were the lead singer of that band, but were you also playing an instrument?

• 21:19Speaker 03

  No.

• 21:19Dax Shepard?

  And do you have a good singing voice?

• 21:21Speaker 03

  No.

• 21:21Dax Shepard?

  You don't.

• 21:22Speaker 03

  But none of our heroes did. People go listen to the icons on Spotify and decide for themselves. It wasn't terrible, but I think the reason why I stopped playing music was because I really wanted to be the best at something and I felt like I couldn't be the best.

• 21:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, were you a little saddened by that?

• 21:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:41Dax Shepard?

  That's what you wanted, is to be Johnny Lydon?

• 21:43Speaker 03

  A thousand percent.

• 21:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay, so you go to the University of St. Louis.

• 21:49Speaker 03

  I go to Loyal at Marymount University first.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Here.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  So I played music with people here. I went to film school here.

• 21:56Dax Shepard?

  For two years?

• 21:57Speaker 03

  I got kind of pushed out after about a year and a half. I had big drug issues.

• 22:03Dax Shepard?

  Great, that's where I was going. Are you sober?

• 22:05Speaker 03

  I've been sober since I've been 19 years old.

• 22:07Dax Shepard?

  Congrats.

• 22:07Speaker 03

  Not only am I sober since I've been 19 years old. I got sober, then my dad got sober, then my brother got sober, then my other brother got sober. My next door neighbor, who is like a brother to us, got sober and none of us ever relapsed.

• 22:20Dax Shepard?

  You inspected in the best way.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did have two years of doing Ambien that really kind of fucked me up.

• 22:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  You know, because I am chemically dependent and so it's an iffy time because I took it every night and I did fucking weird things.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a weird drug.

• 22:35Dax Shepard?

  Taking trips to 7-Eleven or anything?

• 22:37Speaker 03

  Other than that, I've been sober.

• 22:38Dax Shepard?

  Well, as someone who's relapsed, I've come to look at sobriety. If in 24 years of your life, you managed to be sober for 20 of those years, I'm impressed if you're an addict.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  I really admired what you did with all that.

• 22:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  You know, did we ever meet before?

• 22:50Dax Shepard?

  No, we haven't, but we know Rosenbaum so well.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  You're friends with Bradley, you're friends with Rosenbaum, Lillard, AG, Seth Green?

• 22:58Dax Shepard?

  I don't know if I have anyone with more mutual friends who I haven't met.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:02Dax Shepard?

  This feels like a very long time.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  Without a paddle premiere.

• 23:05Dax Shepard?

  You did?

• 23:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:06Dax Shepard?

  It made me the best premiere of all time. Do you remember it?

• 23:09Speaker 03

  I totally remember it because I had so much fun. That's where I met Rosebuck.

• 23:13Dax Shepard?

  Monica, they flooded the tank and put boats in the water.

• 23:17Speaker 03

  Paramount.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 23:19Dax Shepard?

  And people watched the premiere.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  From boats?

• 23:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it was like a drive-in movie. It was like broadcast on the backdrop.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  That's so cool.

• 23:25Dax Shepard?

  And there were fucking boats and shit. That was my very first premiere. It was my first movie I was ever in. I was like, these are great. I can't wait to see what comes next. And it never was good like that. But no, we haven't met.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 23:35Dax Shepard?

  It is crazy. Okay, so let's get into the drug issue at Loyola.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Drugs are our favorite topic.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  It's interesting. I've never really talked about all this, but yeah, I did a lot of drugs.

• 23:46Dax Shepard?

  What was your favorite?

• 23:47Speaker 03

  Marijuana. Great. I smoked a quarter bag of weed a day. I woke up every morning. Some days I'd be like, oh, please just wait until 10 a.m. to start smoking weed.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  People talk about how weed's not addictive. I totally fucking don't buy it for a second.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  I could not stop smoking weed. I smoked weed all day long, every day, and would try to curtail it, and I couldn't do it. And then I did a lot of cocaine.

• 24:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  And a lot of alcohol. And then I tried almost everything else. But those were the things I did a lot of.

• 24:17Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna be very generalized right now, but in my experience, people were either, weed was their self-medication, or coke was their self-medication. I definitely found that people that were really drawn to weed, I was not as a kid. I did it, of course, but it wasn't my thing. It was way more artistic, way more kids who were in their room playing guitar, kind of more isolation, baseline. Would you say that was true for you?

• 24:42Speaker 03

  No, pretty social.

• 24:44Dax Shepard?

  Really social?

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Not really social, because I have a part of me that goes away. It's a part of me that writes, part of me that would write songs. I used to draw comic books and edit. There's a part of me that likes to go away and be in my shell. And then I like to come out and be with people, which is why being a writer-director makes a lot of sense. I guess that's why I smoked weed and did coke. Like, I liked both.

• 25:03Dax Shepard?

  Time to go be social.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  Did you find it in college, or were you already doing those drugs in high school?

• 25:09Speaker 03

  Did a lot of drugs from the time I was very little. I don't know if I did actual cocaine, but I did a lot of speed and things like that before college.

• 25:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, in high school, pills would float around. Be like, we have beaners. We have Dexedrine.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  And I remember taking a lot of pills that. Were probably just caffeine pills.

• 25:25Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Because I remember when I took speed for the first time, it was not the same thing. And also, I got my glands swollen so that my ears were sticking.

• 25:34Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that's almost like a superhero. He does this.

• 25:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it was like so sore.

• 25:39Dax Shepard?

  Could I be a new guy called Cokehead?

• 25:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. There is a guy, Snowflame.

• 25:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  He's a cocaine fueled supervillain.

• 25:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he already exists?

• 25:49Speaker 03

  He's pretty cool. He exists. Yeah, he's in DC Comics.

• 25:52Dax Shepard?

  Oh, let's make him 50 and bring him into the fold.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  I think you're good. That's like the first time you've become a method actor.

• 25:59Dax Shepard?

  Now, all of a sudden, I really believe in method acting. Okay, so when you said you were kind of showing out, I'm guessing you were performing pretty terribly, smoking weed all day at Loyola?

• 26:08Speaker 03

  It's cool, yeah.

• 26:09Dax Shepard?

  Were you loving California, though?

• 26:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really loved California. I was very much an outcast in Missouri. I was not that at all. In Loyola, I felt popular.

• 26:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  Not only did I feel popular, I felt popular being myself. There were times I felt popular. It would be sort of me subsuming who I was and dressing down. And in California, I just was myself, and I was just a regular, popular kid at Loyola.

• 26:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  And that was a weird feeling.

• 26:35Dax Shepard?

  So you left there, and then you ended up at University of St. Louis?

• 26:39Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, St. Louis U, yeah.

• 26:40Dax Shepard?

  And what did you major in while you were there?

• 26:42Speaker 03

  Psychology.

• 26:43Dax Shepard?

  And you'd gotten sober in that interim?

• 26:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:46Dax Shepard?

  On your own, you just quit everything?

• 26:47Speaker 03

  No, no, no. I went through rehab.

• 26:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 26:49Speaker 03

  No, no, I have truly sober program, everything, right? Inpatient rehab for a long time, outpatient. I dropped out, started playing music, was going to school, was not really going to school, was mostly playing music, dropped out of school, moved to Arizona, played music professionally, played music for a couple of years, went back to school. And that's when I discovered truly writing.

• 27:17Dax Shepard?

  At St. Louis?

• 27:18Speaker 03

  At St. Louis U.

• 27:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you fell in love with writing?

• 27:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, I had a creative writing class that I took. I wasn't playing music. I'm like, I gotta figure out something I'm gonna do. I said, I think I'm gonna teach, but what do I want to teach? I was already pretty far in psychology, so I had to finish that degree. But I was much more interested in English. And so I started taking tons of English classes. But I took a creative writing class with a guy by the name of Al Montezzi. His task for us was to go home and write a play. I had a really shitty early computer and I wrote a play on there and I'm like, this is the most fun I've ever had. And I think a lot of it was then we took our plays into class and the guy copied them off and he gave them to other students so that we could read the roles.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  And this is so me, so I can't pretend I'm not this way, but everybody was laughing so much.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  It was like, oh my god.

• 28:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  I'm being loved and I'm being loved for my brain, not the way I look. It's such a weird thing for a man to say, but that's what it was like for me at the time because I've always felt like I had been writing these lyrics that nobody could understand and I got attention from the way I looked. It was like having my brain loved. My whole life is different from that moment on.

• 28:35Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 03

  And in the way that I wasn't the best singer, I felt like, oh, I went from feeling kind of old as a rock musician at the age of 22 or 23 or whatever I was, which is silly, but at the time I felt old, to being really young as a writer.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  I also wonder, I mean, timing wise, it probably was helpful that you had just gotten sober because there's a high in that approval.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was actually sober for a little while by that time. I've been sober for like three, I mean, that's not.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  That's not really, I mean, it is a long time.

• 29:04Dax Shepard?

  It is when you're 19.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  I guess you're right, you're right.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  It's a huge percentage of your life.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  I mean, one of the struggles for me in sobriety that I can start to take for granted is that I got sober when I was so young that being sober is way more a part of my life than using chemicals. And that is actually a little bit of something I have to be aware of in my life because there are times when I can kind of forget that I'm not just naturally sober.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 03

  Because that's something I actually have to put some effort in. It's easier for me than other people.

• 29:36Dax Shepard?

  That's why I think it's so hard to maintain sobriety from 19 onward because I at least took it to 29. But even at that, I look at just my standard operating, you know, my modus operandi at 29, I had temper tantrums, I fought guys at stoplights. I was unhinged. You get to this point where you're pretty stable and normal. Normal and I'm not up and down.

• 29:58Speaker 03

  I still had all those things though. After getting sober, then I was crazy with sex.

• 30:02Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 30:03Speaker 03

  It was like I'm an addict, you know?

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  Then I had to deal with my anger issues because I'd get so fucking angry and get in fights. And I just had to kind of go through one thing at a time until my wonderful boring self today.

• 30:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes, but the danger of it is, is you're sitting around in your 40s and you're like, I'm not even the same dude that got sober. I'm a calm guy who's responsible.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  I still am not.

• 30:26Dax Shepard?

  No, you're right. I found out.

• 30:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:28Dax Shepard?

  But it can be quite misleading because you're just trying to evaluate, am I the same person? Which is hard to do.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you're like, I'm not that guy. I could probably dabble and be fine.

• 30:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm not gonna disappear for four days. I would never do that now.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  There you are.

• 30:41Speaker 03

  I mean, also, I do believe that I'm naturally an alcoholic and addict. Everybody in my family is. I'm Irish Catholic. Like, it's just a part of our genetics. But I also think that because I was so extreme, so young, there were other things that were at play mentally, other anxiety and depression issues that made me take that on so full force.

• 31:05Dax Shepard?

  I only gain this compassion for us in watching my very best friend since I was 11 get sober five years ago. And in exploring his whole experience, we both had challenging childhoods. His was infinitely more challenging. It was so fucking hard. And the only thing that he did for a period that I never got into is he huffed gas for like a year and a half.

• 31:25Speaker 03

  That's a hard one.

• 31:26Dax Shepard?

  And it's such a terrible high. And I just had this moment where I realized, yeah, that was an improvement for Aaron. And that's where I got this just wave of compassion for us. Yeah, you're trying to feel better. And if you feel so bad that a gas buzz is an improvement, fuck, my heart goes out for you.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:44Dax Shepard?

  But then I can extend that to us. You're suffering and it's a great fucking medicine. It works for a while.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. How do you not hurt?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  It's not all about like, how can I have fun?

• 31:54Dax Shepard?

  Exactly. And even when you're taking on the wreckage, a lot of people would be like, look at the wreckage. And you're like, yes, but the wreckage is preferred to how I felt without it, as crazy as that is.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's sad.

• 32:05Speaker 03

  But you also get Blinded to repercussions. So you start using drugs and you just get blinded to the fact that what is this gonna lead to? You lose it.

• 32:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you end up at Columbia to get a master's in writing, but pros, not screenplay writing.

• 32:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was gonna be a novelist.

• 32:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  I wasn't a novelist, I wrote novels. My brother, Sean and I, so we were the two fuck-ups of the family. I was the oldest kid and he was the youngest kid. The other kids are all pretty straight and pretty together. Even my two alcoholic brothers, who were much more straight than me. But we were the fuck-ups and he got into Fordham University for acting the same week that I got into Columbia for pros. And it was like, what the hell is going on? This is an upside down world in which we're getting into the two prestigious institutions. We were so happy. We just kept saying, two fuck-ups. Yeah. So I went to Columbia, I wrote a novel as my thesis, got it published. The Toy Collector, which people have read and it's a very transgressions novel.

• 33:01Dax Shepard?

  Of your accomplishments, I'm gonna weirdly guess that might have never got better than getting a book published?

• 33:07Speaker 03

  No.

• 33:08Dax Shepard?

  I mean, not objectively, but the pride of having.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Nah. Oh, man. Here's the thing, I got it published after I started doing okay here. There were a lot of other things that started happening.

• 33:19Dax Shepard?

  But just you remembered the SE envelopes, you'd send all these fucking publishers, hundreds trying to get stuff published.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  No, I didn't do any of that. I got an agent. And we had a couple of people making offers on the novel.

• 33:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's a different experience.

• 33:33Speaker 03

  And then they had a bid for it.

• 33:34Dax Shepard?

  No wonder it's not high up there.

• 33:38Dax Shepard?

  I remember sending like a thousand.

• 33:39Speaker 03

  If I would've got one back, I went to Columbia, but one of the things is I got denied. I didn't get into Iowa, I didn't get into NYU, I didn't get into Washington University. I didn't get into Georgetown. I didn't get into all these different places and I was like, I think I'm fucking great? Like, what the fuck is going on? So then when I got the envelope from Columbia, I was pretty happy.

• 34:00Dax Shepard?

  I bet.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  It was like my number one choice, the hardest one to get into.

• 34:05Dax Shepard?

  I would've told myself like, yeah, I'm so good at the elite school.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  Only the elite ones. That's right, that is what I told myself.

• 34:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 03

  I told myself, they're looking for more commercial writers, they're looking for. People that will actually go out there and make some money, not artsy fartsy. Cause I always had a little bit in me of, I wanted to make money doing this.

• 34:24Dax Shepard?

  Mine is really high. My fascination with money, my obsession, my chasing of it, my financial insecurity. Those are raging. Where are you at on that spectrum?

• 34:33Speaker 03

  I think it's changed over the years.

• 34:35Dax Shepard?

  Well, of course, because you get it and it's not the fantasy.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  I like making money. It's always been something that's been exciting for me. I remember the first time I made 500 bucks playing a show back in the eighties. And the guy came out and gave me this wad of money. I'm like, oh, this is the best feeling in the world. Getting paid for doing something creative. Like I was so jazzed by that. Everyone knows I'm pretty tough with my own business dealings and I'm good at that part of it. It drives me to a certain degree, but it isn't the overriding thing. I was always trying to get love for most of my life.

• 35:09Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  And I think that changes at a certain point and that put things in a different perspective. Sometimes I don't know why I do what I do. I work so, so hard all the time. And I like the results of what I do. I don't get a big charge out of being loved. I have a lot of money. My life has been built so crazily on ambition. That is the only way my body knows how to act. Yes.

• 35:38Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Let's take a minute to thank our presenting sponsor, Audible. With Audible, the leading audio entertainment app, it's easy to discover new stories and ideas while going about your day.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And with over a million audiobooks, Audible originals and more, it's basically impossible to run out of things to listen to. Plus, there's just something about audio storytelling that hits a little different.

• 36:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it really does, especially Audible originals that feature performances from celebrities and top voices. It's like watching a movie in your head. Uh, one on my list is Treasure Island.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 36:17Dax Shepard?

  Uh, which is an Audible original drama. It's a timeless tale of pirates, lost treasure, maps and mutiny. What more could you need?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  That sounds really fun. I'm more of a psychological thriller girl.

• 36:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're dark.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm dark and I'm broody. And I've been hearing all about the author Freedom McFadden. And I love that I can listen to her audiobooks on the Audible app when I'm commuting, taking my wogs, as you know, or just like doing laundry and chores.

• 36:44Dax Shepard?

  Well, with Audible, you can find the genres you love and discover new ones. There's more to imagine when you listen. And to make it even better, Audible has a special offer for arm cherries. Sign up for a free 30 day Audible trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.com slash DAX. That's audible.com slash DAX. We get support from Skims. Okay, I have a confession. I genuinely love matching pajamas. It's the best part of Christmas morning, really. Everyone in the same matching set, looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  I love matching pajamas. I'm literally going to be in coordinating sets with all my friends this holiday season. Because I got them, spoiler to my friends who are listening, the same Skims pajama set I've been living in. They are so soft and cozy and they look cute. So you can leave the house and go get a late night hot chocolate and be cozy.

• 37:39Dax Shepard?

  It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone, too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I have a bunch of different pajama sets. One of my favorite is the organic cotton sleep long sleeve set.

• 37:55Dax Shepard?

  Okay, tell me more.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  It is so comfortable, very chic, too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multipurpose this and look super cute.

• 38:08Dax Shepard?

  Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  All the nostalgia, none of the discomfort. Shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select podcasts in the survey and be sure to select Armchair Expert in the dropdown menu that follows. If you're looking for the perfect gifts for everyone on your list, the Skims Holiday Shop is now open at skims.com.

• 38:37Dax Shepard?

  This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time, but even dream jobs have some not so dreamy parts, the stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. Now that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish. Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 39:19Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 39:20Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. We get support from Instagram teen accounts. So we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Which is a fair question.

• 39:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So Instagram has got something called teen accounts and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them and time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10:00 PM to 7:00 AM.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 40:11Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age appropriate experiences for teens.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram's helping to give parents peace of mind with teen accounts.

• 40:30Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.

• 40:39Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, the skills, and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's faculty aren't just academics. They're practitioners who bring real-world experience into everything they teach.

• 41:22Dax Shepard?

  From your first class to career coaching and beyond, Walden is your partner the whole way. Take the first step and learn at a pace that works for you. Visit waldenu.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV.

• 41:44Dax Shepard?

  What aspect do you find most grueling? And which one's most fun?

• 41:48Speaker 03

  I like every part of making a movie. I can't say that was always the case. It used to be that I liked writing and post-production, but didn't like shooting. Now I love it all.

• 41:56Dax Shepard?

  Oh, interesting.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  So I will say that in terms of the pleasure I get from it, if I could write a movie, make a movie, edit a movie, and then burn it, I'd probably be happy.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Oh, you don't like the after.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  I don't like having to deal with putting it out there in the world. I don't like to have to deal with... I mean, this is perfectly pleasant. I like doing podcasts where we're talking, but most of the press I fucking hate.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  The things I thought I'd like when I was young, like doing red carpets and stuff. I don't like people looking at me like that. So I don't like that kind of stuff.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  That is self-actualization. You're there for the process, but you don't care about the result. And then that's what we're striving for, but then it does come with... Well, then what's the point?

• 42:36Dax Shepard?

  And you wanted to magically make a couple billion dollars without you going on red carpets.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  I'm not sure. If I'm burning it after I've done, I'm not sure I'm worth how much I'm getting paid to do it. So I like doing it for the job aspect. And also, I do feel a certain sense of calling in doing what I'm doing.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 03

  I believe in God. I feel a certain calling in what I do. I don't think it's like a saintly activity. But I do think that if I can make the world slightly better with stories about people that are good people or learning about themselves or in touch with their emotions, that it's something.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:15Dax Shepard?

  It's positive. You're leaving the world better than you found it.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  I hope.

• 43:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Can you pinpoint the moment where that fell away? The approval or the needing external validation?

• 43:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was when I got fired. It was 100% when I got fired. I mean, I've talked about this before. It's not a big.

• 43:29Dax Shepard?

  But not to us.

• 43:29Speaker 03

  Thing. Now, I haven't talked about it to you.

• 43:31Dax Shepard?

  Can we stop two places before that?

• 43:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 43:33Dax Shepard?

  You come out to LA after Columbia.

• 43:35Speaker 03

  No, I was in New York. I was in Columbia and I was still in grad school and I got hired to write a screenplay for a movie called Trommy and Juliet for 150 bucks. I wrote it and then I found out I like being the guy. And so I took control, sort of became Lloyd's partner on that film.

• 43:55Dax Shepard?

  And so Lloyd, what did he direct most famously?

• 43:57Speaker 03

  He directed Toxic Avenger, Class of Newcombe High, all sex and violence. I wrote the screenplay. My next job was choreographing the sex scenes with the actors.

• 44:05Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 44:05Speaker 03

  But I got to learn about every aspect of filmmaking. The movie cost $350,000, which I couldn't believe was so much money to me at the time. I remember driving in the subway to set and going like, I can't believe that I wrote something. And then all of a sudden they're spending this enormous amount of money.

• 44:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  I learned about casting, about marketing, about putting the movie out in the theaters. We played here at the New Beverly every Saturday night.

• 44:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  So it was much more helpful to me, I think, than film school because it's so practical.

• 44:36Dax Shepard?

  So you then end up writing a bunch of different things that end up working. I think most significantly, you do Scooby 1 and Scooby 2 as a writer. That's when I meet Lillard. He's just done Scooby 2.

• 44:48Speaker 03

  Yes, that's right.

• 44:49Dax Shepard?

  So you're a pretty successful writer at that point?

• 44:52Speaker 03

  Yes. You know, you're talking to me about the novel. Was that that exciting moment? The exciting moments for me in my career were 5:30 in the morning when Scooby Doo first opened up and Lorenzo de Bonaventura, who was the head of production at Warner Brothers at the time, woke me up and he said, did you hear it? And I said, no, it's 5:30. What do I hear? And he said, it's the biggest opening ever in July. And I knew that I went from being nobody to having a career in this industry. That was huge. And then the first thing you direct is Slither? Yes. Horror movie with incredible cast. Yep, made dozens of dollars at the box office. But it got really good reviews.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  I find that there's certain key moments in my life where I take a stand where you wanna not, you wanna retreat, and I took a stand. But it was gonna come out and they came to me and they said, you know, it costs a lot of money to have these movies screened for critics. So I think we're not gonna do that. And what they were really saying was, we as a studio don't think that this movie is going to get good reviews. So we're not gonna screen it for critics. I went to bed that night, I'm like, you know what? I just don't buy that it's not gonna get good reviews. I think it's gonna get good reviews. And I called up Eric Newman, our producer the next morning, good friend of mine. And I'm like, we can't do it, we gotta fight this. And we went in and we fought it and they were very great in that they listened to us and they did it. And it saved my career in a lot of ways.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  Cause I don't know if I would've gotten those reviews if it would've helped me as much. You gotta be either a critical success or a financial. On your debut film, otherwise you just get lost. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're dead. So it really helped me. And then that leads, you do also a superhero movie, you do Super. Yep. Okay, so now we go to 2013 Guardians. It's a coup that you get that at the time because you had done some stuff crazy. I was about to quit. You know, I had just done a video game that I had a lot of fun doing. I had a deal to do a TV show, which seemed to be something that was happening in the air, which I was right about. Because there's so much premier television that was about to happen. Unless you're doing a Marvel movie, it's not culturally relevant anymore.

• 47:01Speaker 03

  So I'm like, why am I making movies when I'm just gonna make TV shows and video games? Cause I cared about being culturally relevant. I told my agents, I'm just gonna quit making movies, I'm gonna focus on these other things. And then Marvel called me in, which they had called me in before. They knew I was a big comic book fan, I didn't think it was very realistic. I went in and they told me about Guardians and I didn't really a hundred percent see it in the room, but on the way driving home, I started to see it come together.

• 47:28Dax Shepard?

  Was Chris involved yet, or was it just a property they wanted to explore?

• 47:31Speaker 03

  No, there was a script. Those main characters were already a part of it. So to me, at first, it was like Bugs Bunny and the Avengers. How's that gonna work? And I knew the characters from the comics, but mostly another iteration of the characters. So I just wasn't sure, but when I was driving home, I saw how it could be. Number one, I saw the character Rocket. I went with my usual question was, what if this was real? Okay, seems stupid, talking raccoon, but what if it was real? And I realized that he would be the saddest person in the universe and that he was totally alone. And that was sort of the seed of the whole show. It's my bread and butter. And so then I started to see how it could be that space fantasy that I always wanted to do. It wasn't gonna be like Star Wars, but that it could excite kids

• 48:15Speaker 03

  in the same way Star Wars excited me. They could get that same feeling of magic and novelty that I got when I saw T-3PO on the cover of People Magazine. They could get from Groot.

• 48:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  I got the gig. I was with my girlfriend at the time in her apartment and I got the call that I got the job and I felt like Kelly Clarkson with the confetti. That's how I remember it, by the way.

• 48:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  The way I remember it is I was Kelly Clarkson and the fucking balloons and confetti and fucking bubbles are coming down on me as I get this phone call.

• 48:46Dax Shepard?

  Yes. You know, I loved Iron Man so much.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  Me too.

• 48:51Dax Shepard?

  Also, I had done Favreau's movie just before Iron Man, so I was like kinda close to him at the time. So I think I got to see so much of how that came together and then the fight for Downey and all that stuff. I loved that one. I wanna credit he and Dan Leventhal for kinda creating the Marvel sense of humor. I think they deserve a lot of credit for that.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:09Dax Shepard?

  And then I didn't care about a bunch of them. And then I saw Guardians and I was like, fuck me. This movie is so original, even within this genre. And yeah, more of Star Wars than it was per se Marvel conventionally.

• 49:23Speaker 03

  It's not really a superhero movie. It's not superheroes. They're just adventures.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  It had a reach that was beyond, like, I saw it and I wasn't seeing any of those movies. I generally don't care about superheroes. It was so good.

• 49:35Dax Shepard?

  It transcended and just right out of the gates, the opening, the music is such a big part of it. But I was trying to go back in my mind to remember where Chris Pratt was on this hierarchy. He wasn't yet the biggest star in the world. He had done Jurassic, not yet.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no. He was the heavy guy on Parks and Rec.

• 49:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so it's a coup on a coup because you shouldn't probably be there. And now you come in, you go, okay, thanks for letting me in the door. Now I want you to bet a few hundred million on this guy who's never done this.

• 49:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:00Dax Shepard?

  What was that process like?

• 50:01Speaker 03

  It was difficult and easy. It was difficult in that we auditioned literally 300 people easy for Star Lord. I screen tested 25 actors.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  I could not find the guy.

• 50:15Dax Shepard?

  That you liked.

• 50:16Speaker 03

  Kevin Feige either. I was so happy because we did the first screen tests. And we screened them and I'm like, they're gonna kill me. He was such a specific guy. The famous story around it is that I didn't want to see Chris because I'm like, this Joker, no way.

• 50:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 50:31Speaker 03

  And Chris had been turned down by a lot of things and he didn't want to have to do that again. Sarah Finn, who's the casting director, talked me into it. I think she tricked me into it. She set up the meeting without telling me, but we were so desperate that time. I'm like, oh, I guess he's coming in. He came in and he started his audition. And I am serious, it was not 12 seconds into the audition. And I turned around to Sarah and I said, he's the one.

• 50:56Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  So then it was about getting everyone else on board.

• 51:00Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you do the first one. It's fucking outrageous. Now, in between Guardians 2 and 3, now we've caught up. I thought it'd be relevant. Before we evaluate you looking back at your career and deciding whether or not you're happy, I think we needed to know how we got there.

• 51:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:15Dax Shepard?

  So you had a string of old tweets that came out. You were making some jokes that were on topics people don't like.

• 51:20Speaker 03

  My novel, if you look at transgressionist fiction in Wikipedia, I'm listed.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  You know, it's like, that's what I did. I was a provocateur. They weren't very funny, but whose tweets are funny from 10 years ago?

• 51:34Dax Shepard?

  It's also worth saying, I was early into Twitter too. And there's a long period of time where I think I'm just tweeting to whoever follows me. Whoever has followed me has declared they have a similar sense of humor as I do or point of view. And then it'll just end there, that somehow it has a perimeter.

• 51:48Speaker 03

  The biggest mistake I made. Was I one day posted, "Hey, everybody, it's fake retweet time." This is back in the day when you didn't just press a button and retweet someone. That wasn't possible. You had to copy and paste and then put RT before the tweet. I realized you could do this and fuck over your friends. So I started tweeting the most horrible things I could imagine about my friends, who have had to live with this to this day, saying that my friend JP had killed a prostitute in Mexico.

• 52:22Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 52:23Speaker 03

  I was retweeting all these horrible things they had said.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Did they say it or were you making it up?

• 52:27Dax Shepard?

  He was just making it up.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  I made him say the worst things I could possibly imagine. So this goes forward now to when all this stuff happens. And the meaning of RT has been forgotten. They think I'm tweeting at people saying these terrible things.

• 52:41Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 52:42Speaker 03

  And these poor guys are caught in the crossfire of people who are not famous at all.

• 52:46Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 52:47Speaker 03

  And so I get fired.

• 52:48Dax Shepard?

  And really quick, when you get fired, do they say you're fired and we are going to do Guardians 3 without you? Is that a notion you have or no?

• 52:56Speaker 03

  At the very beginning, it didn't come up because Kevin was fighting for me to come back. But yeah, I got fired. It was the worst.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  And were you angry, sad? I mean, I assume a lot of things. What was the main emotion?

• 53:13Speaker 03

  There was a moment in which I said to Peter Safran, I said, "I don't know what I'm gonna do."

• 53:19Dax Shepard?

  And Peter is your longtime manager and producing partner who now co-runs.

• 53:22Speaker 03

  Co-runs DC with me. Not only am I being attacked, but my friends are being attacked, you know? David Das Melchien said something positive, he's being attacked. Joe Kinnaman responded to an Instagram and he was attacked just for that and called terrible things.

• 53:38Dax Shepard?

  If I were you, I would have had some self-righteous indignation over the fact that really this all starts because you had pissed the right off and the right went digging. Do I understand that correctly?

• 53:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:46Dax Shepard?

  I would be yelling to my liberal friends like, "You motherfuckers are doing exactly what they hoped." This is out of the right playbook.

• 53:53Speaker 03

  Yes. It was mostly right-wing people attacking me, but it was also.

• 53:57Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, once you failed the purity test.

• 53:59Speaker 03

  Fuck, I don't even like talking about this shit. I realize now I'm really talking about it, which I don't like. I think that what happened was. My life was gone. I thought my career was over. I didn't think I was gonna make another dime in this industry. So I was just gonna have to hold on to whatever I had made, which was nowhere near as much as I had hoped it would be to last for the rest of my life and live a really frugal life. But the thing that happened, I realized, was that everything I had done was really to be rich and famous so that people would love me. And that a lot of what I did was not based upon being a creative individual, or a calling, or anything, but so that I could finally be accepted and loved.

• 54:41Speaker 03

  And I, as an organism, was unable to experience the love of another human being. The only time I can remember even slightly the feeling, I had gone to a Brazil Comic Con shortly before this time. And I remember standing on stage and literally 8,000 people in the crowd chanting, "J M is gone, J M is gone," and crying like girls at a Beatles concert. Yeah. And for the first time in my life, I said, "Oh, I'm at zero. I'm okay for the first time in my life."

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  Right. That's fucked up. That's how many people had to jump into the hole in your heart.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  And they're strangers, too.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  And they're strangers.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  That's the part.

• 55:22Speaker 03

  I went from feeling like that, and on that day, when I had lost all the power I had, I had lost the ability to cast anybody, I had lost everything. I got so much love from my partner at the time, Jen, the guardians from Chris and Palm and all those guys. The people who actually knew you.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 55:40Speaker 03

  The people that knew me, all my friends, my mom and my dad. I was overwhelmed with it, and I experienced being loved for the first time. And I went to sleep that night, looking at my girlfriend, going, "I'm gonna marry this woman." And I went to sleep that night going, "This started out as the worst day of my life, but I actually think it's the best day of my life." Yeah. Because I learned that I don't need to.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  Tap dance till the bones are showing through my toes to get people to like me.

• 56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:11Speaker 03

  And that was a really intense experience and I kept it with me.

• 56:16Dax Shepard?

  Isn't it crazy what it takes for us?

• 56:19Speaker 03

  At the extremes.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:21Dax Shepard?

  It's insane, right?

• 56:22Speaker 03

  It is.

• 56:23Dax Shepard?

  You can be told stuff intellectually a bunch of times and you can understand it intellectually. And then it takes these crazy kind of moments of humility to connect to it emotionally.

• 56:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  I think that's everyone, but I think especially for an addict. You're living in tens and ones, you know?

• 56:39Speaker 03

  So true, but I try so hard not to do that.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  No, I know, I know.

• 56:43Speaker 03

  Because I'm so hyperbolic in everything about my life. I got upset about this morning. I was getting upset with the way things had been posted about tickets being released. And I'm like, calm the fuck down.

• 56:54Dax Shepard?

  I gotta care so much about everything.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:57Speaker 03

  It's like not a ten, there are tens.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  But it's hard, it's hard.

• 57:01Dax Shepard?

  They're few and far between, but you can make a lot of sevens at ten.

• 57:03Speaker 03

  We had to move my family quickly out of my house during the LA fires. Like, that was a ten, you know? But also not worthy getting upset because that's just gonna make you worse at what you're doing. And in those situations, I'm pretty good. So why am I sober when I have to get my pets out alive? And I'm not sober when they post the wrong thing on my Instagram account? Stupid.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:25Dax Shepard?

  Well.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  It's our brains.

• 57:26Dax Shepard?

  We know the answer to that kind of, which is you suffer more in your imagination than you do in reality. That thing's still in your imagination. It'll come out, it'll be perceived X, Y, and Z. This other group of things will happen as a result of that. Whereas like, oh, then the fire's down the road, the pets gotta go now.

• 57:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:43Dax Shepard?

  I know how to pick up pets and put them in a car, I'm in action.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  I don't have the luxury of drama in that situation.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  If I have the luxury of drama, then drama isn't warranted. And if drama is warranted, you don't have the luxury of having it.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 57:56Speaker 03

  Drama's just bullshit. It's unworthy, except for on the page.

• 58:00Dax Shepard?

  It's our ego and our revenge addiction.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  But it's hard, it's future surfing versus being in the present. But it's almost impossible to not.

• 58:08Speaker 03

  We're not perfect.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  We're not perfect.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  But we can be better.

• 58:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so did you take the DC role with the Suicide Squad? In the interim where you thought you weren't gonna be able to work for Marvel?

• 58:18Speaker 03

  That's right, yeah, it was the worst because Kevin was fighting for my job back. I went and I met with Alan Horn, a guy I loved to death. It wasn't happening. I left, Toby Emmerich from Warner Brothers at the time came to me. He's like, James Gunn Superman, James Gunn Superman. And I said, I don't know, man. And then he was like, well, what about Suicide Squad? And so I came up with an idea. I went and pitched it. They were like, yes, let's do it. I went home and I got a phone call and it was Alan Horn. And he said, James, I wonder if you could come in and see me tomorrow.

• 58:55Dax Shepard?

  You're back.

• 58:56Speaker 03

  And I was like, oh, my God. And I went in to meet with Alan and I don't know what Alan's comfortable with me talking about. But he basically was like, he didn't think it was the right thing. And he said, my conscience just won't let me live with it.

• 59:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, there was an online petition that 400,000 people signed to bring you back. Everyone in the cast got supportive. There was a pretty much a tidal wave against, which is so rare.

• 59:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, it started out really negative and then became much more in my favor. It really wasn't that. This was after all the noise had passed and Alan just was waking up, being like, I don't think it's right. And I've known Alan forever, the greatest guy in the world. And I love him to death. I still work with him because he's at Warner Brothers now. So we keep following each other around and I work with him all the time. He's one of my most trusted mentors. I show him every cut of the movie. He gives me advice, but he said, I wanted to hire you back. I said, okay, we got to talk to Kevin. I went over to Kevin's house, Kevin Feige, who's the head of Marvel. I went into his basement where he's got all his Star Wars figures, like a little museum. And he said, this is amazing. He said, this is so good. This is what I wanted.

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  And I'm like, yeah, it's good, but I have to do something else first. And Kevin goes, ah, are you doing Superman? I forgot about that till just this moment. I said, no, Suicide Squad sequel. And he said, whoa. He's like, go do it and then we'll do Guardians after.

• 1:00:19Dax Shepard?

  Did you feel at all like, oh, I wanted to play my whole career with the Bulls, but I got forced to? Was there any ethical dilemma like, oh, I'm going now to the competitor? No.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  I just shook my head.

• 1:00:30Dax Shepard?

  You shouldn't feel that way, but.

• 1:00:31Speaker 03

  I didn't feel that way because I was fired.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I think in some ways it's like, I guess I'm going to play for the other team, almost with some fuck you.

• 1:00:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, it wasn't even that because, listen, there are people that I'm not that happy with over there. But that certainly wasn't the Marvel guys. They were completely supportive. Lou DiEsposito called me all the time. So Lou and Kevin were great. It certainly wasn't them, but I didn't feel guilt at all. I had to take a job.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:00:58Speaker 03

  I took a job to people that I also really liked. That was it.

• 1:01:01Dax Shepard?

  Okay, Superman. We had Nicholas Hoult on already.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:01:06Dax Shepard?

  To promote this.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  This is gonna be a Superman week.

• 1:01:09Speaker 03

  Okay, great. He's the sweetest guy. Every person on set had a crush on Nick.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:01:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  The thing that's unique about him, it's hard to come off because you don't really fully get the sense of a person's humility. Some people are good at faking it. Me, no.

• 1:01:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're just okay at it.

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  But he's really.

• 1:01:29Speaker 03

  He's truly a humble guy. He's just got that thing that he comes onto set and he's just working really hard. And then he'll have dinner with me or with the second A D. He doesn't have any airs about him whatsoever. Zero diva, which in an actor to have zero diva is crazy.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, very rare.

• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  Especially for somebody who's been famous since he's been a little boy.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:01:52Dax Shepard?

  Another example we have of that is Christian Bale, who also was famous as a little boy, didn't really like it, then came back to it. If you go through that whole cycle.

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  In British.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the British thing.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  Because British people are not better than Americans in general. Contrary to popular opinion, I don't necessarily believe they're better actors in terms of talent of acting than Americans. But their work ethic as actors is better than the work ethic of American actors. For some reason, British people, for the most part, and some are absolute pieces of shit. But for the most part, they look at it as a job and they come in and they do their fucking job and they're great.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  It's because theater is such a huge part of that culture.

• 1:02:34Speaker 03

  All those guys that I knew from like the British Office and all that stuff, it's a different culture on film sets over there.

• 1:02:41Dax Shepard?

  There's also a different marketplace over there, which has a lot to do with it. Yeah, British Office, they do three seasons. One's a Christmas thing. They don't do the Friends thing. They don't do the Seinfeld thing. They don't have things run for eight years and end up paying people a million dollars in episodes. People don't make as much money doing it. You're not getting into it for. The same level of fame and money you get into it in America.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  I think fame is different there.

• 1:03:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, and also the people that are attracted to it. There is that sort of thing in England where it's the class system, really. It's not a good thing, but in the United States, you're this overly fame-seeking, ambitious, egomaniac child from any place that's like, "I'm gonna be a fucking star."

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:03:22Speaker 03

  That's not really something so much that happens in England.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  It's much more about, "I'm going to go to theater school."

• 1:03:29Dax Shepard?

  Be great at acting.

• 1:03:30Speaker 03

  "I'm gonna be an actor."

• 1:03:31Dax Shepard?

  When you take on Superman, are you so confident in your skills at that point, but you're not intimidated by that property?

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  No, I'm intimidated by it, and just because I took it on didn't mean I was 100% going to do it. It just meant I was gonna play with it and see what I could do. It's just, I had the ability to do it. So I was tooling around with it. Then the DC job came, which was out of left field, crazy thing for me, that I'm a CEO. We're our own studios, so we are not under Warner Brothers. We are under David Zaslove. So there's Zaslove, and then there is DC Studios. So we're a separate studio from Warner Brothers.

• 1:04:08Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  We share marketing and distribution.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  So you're the studio head?

• 1:04:12Speaker 03

  Co-head was Peter Savern. He's really the studio head. I'm the guy that tries to put the projects together.

• 1:04:20Dax Shepard?

  Create a DC tone, I imagine.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  One of the things I want to do is to be able to allow artists to do their own thing. One of the things I loved reading comics growing up, especially DC Comics, is being able to read these comics that were remarkably different. The way one artist would look at Metropolis is totally different from another artist.

• 1:04:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so there's a ton of latitude.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  There's consistency in the storylines, there's consistency with the characters, there's consistency with a lot of things, but the tones were different, and I don't want them all to have a similar tone. The way I told Craig Gillespie, who's directing Supergirl, "Do your thing," you know, and Anna Aguirre, who wrote the script, "It's different from Superman."

• 1:04:57Dax Shepard?

  So what was the element that made you go from playing with it to falling in love with Superman?

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  I just kept playing with it until I thought I found a way in. And then I found a way in, and I was like, "Oh, okay." And then I just followed that path.

• 1:05:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so how does yours differ and also resemble the previous ones?

• 1:05:15Speaker 03

  Superman is Superman. He's a good-natured guy who's an alien and it's got the same backstory as everybody else. But one of the things I loved reading comic books as a kid, when I was four, I learned to read on comics. So, back in the early 70s, by the time I came to comics, I came to Superman, not just Superman by himself, but Superman in a world of superheroes, Superman in the world of DC. And when I read Spider-Man, Spider-Man was in a world of Marvel, with all the Marvel characters. It wasn't like I came into these worlds and had to read the origin story and see the beginning of this character, and then 10 movies down, that'll probably never happen, he gets involved with other superheroes.

• 1:05:53Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:05:54Speaker 03

  Our DC universe is a world where superheroes exist. Yeah. It shares as much with Game of Thrones as it does with the Marvel Universe, where we're in a world where magic exists, where metahumans exist, and they've existed for quite a while.

• 1:06:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because the first Superman, or the Donner Superman,

• 1:06:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:06:12Dax Shepard?

  he's the only superhero.

• 1:06:13Speaker 03

  He's the only superhero. I mean, every superhero movie we ever saw through Spider-Man was basically heroes by themselves. Yeah. With no other heroes around. And I didn't want to do that again. And I didn't want to tell the origin story again. And I wanted to focus on a moment in his life that we hadn't really focused on. In this case, it's his early career as Superman and as Clark Kent, and his relationship with Lois Lane when they've been dating for three months. And I also wanted all the magic and science fiction stuff that I love from the Silver Age comics. So, we get Krypto, the flying dog. We have Superman robots. We have Kaiju. We have Lex,

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  Luther in battle suits. And all of that over-the-top fun stuff, yet at the same time, keep the characters completely real and completely grounded.

• 1:07:05Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

• 1:07:12Dax Shepard?

  We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace and I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run.

• 1:07:56Dax Shepard?

  Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com. We get support from Superhuman. Look, I love what I do. The conversations, the ideas, the creative stuff, but there's this whole other layer of work that eats my day alive. The inbox that never ends, docs I need to get through, threads I'm behind on. And by the time I've dealt with all that, the stuff I actually want to focus on gets whatever's left. What I needed was something that just works where I'm already working. Not another tab to open, not another thing to set up. Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly is different. It's already right there, inside your email, your docs, your browser. You don't go to it, it's already working alongside you.

• 1:08:38Dax Shepard?

  You're deep in a long thread, highlight it and it pulls the key points. About to send something important? It flags what doesn't add up before it leaves your hands. It knows your style, your workflows, and it just backs you up without getting in the way. A thought partner that's already up to speed, at your service, not after your job. So do yourself a favor and try Superhuman Go from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com.

• 1:09:05Speaker 05

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• 1:09:41Dax Shepard?

  All I've gotten to see is the trailer, which is great and quite promising. But yes, there's quite a bit of time dedicated to Superman's dog, or what I'm interpreting to be Superman's dog. And that's new to me. I didn't know Superman had a canine in the mix.

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  Crypto, yeah.

• 1:09:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay. How does Crypto have powers? He can fly?

• 1:09:59Speaker 03

  He's from Krypton.

• 1:10:01Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he came with him in the capsule?

• 1:10:02Speaker 03

  No, not exactly.

• 1:10:03Dax Shepard?

  But he made it here somehow.

• 1:10:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay, he has arrived. And we don't worry about the fact that Clark is 20 and the dog's still alive?

• 1:10:11Speaker 03

  We worry about it. We just don't explain it in this movie.

• 1:10:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 1:10:16Speaker 03

  But Crypto's also very important in our next movie with Supergirl. And so we'll find out a lot more of that. Oh, cool.

• 1:10:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. And so Crypto, in the trailer, he's tasked with flying Superman home from the North Pole.

• 1:10:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, dragging him home because his body's broken by some entity we don't quite know. And he's a fucking dog, so he doesn't know what he's doing. And he's terrible. So it's my dog, that character.

• 1:10:38Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:10:39Speaker 03

  He's actually physically my dog. No way.

• 1:10:41Dax Shepard?

  You got him to act. He has a SAG card now?

• 1:10:43Speaker 03

  Jesus Christ, no. My dog is terrible, but he's just my dog made white. We photographed my dog and then turned him into Crypto.

• 1:10:50Dax Shepard?

  I would imagine of the many Herculean tasks on your plate when you tackle Superman, I would guess among the top one is casting Superman.

• 1:11:01Speaker 03

  For sure. Yeah.

• 1:11:02Dax Shepard?

  I mean, I don't think there's any role that's more...

• 1:11:04Speaker 03

  I would not have made the film if I couldn't find Superman.

• 1:11:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so do you first start considering having previous Superman?

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:11:12Dax Shepard?

  You know you're gonna start from scratch because of the age. How do you begin looking for a young stud?

• 1:11:19Dax Shepard?

  I mean, that's what you need. Who can play a dork, but it's also.

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  Well, you need a guy with Superman face.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Hard to find.

• 1:11:24Dax Shepard?

  That's non-negotiable.

• 1:11:25Speaker 03

  And so we just cast a very wide net. We had everybody that we could think of auditioning.

• 1:11:30Dax Shepard?

  Well, Nicholas auditioned for Superman, he told us.

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  Nick screen tested for Superman. Yep. So it came down to three actors. David Cornswett, Nicholas Holt, and another actor's fantastic.

• 1:11:41Dax Shepard?

  Where's David from?

• 1:11:42Speaker 03

  David is from Philadelphia. He still lives in Philadelphia. He's the star of a Netflix show. He's a star of an HBO show, We Own the Night. I don't know if you ever saw that.

• 1:11:51Dax Shepard?

  This is no shade to him. I have reached the age where I don't really know anyone under 40 anymore.

• 1:11:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:57Dax Shepard?

  Like, I gotta be introduced to them through a Superman or something.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  But I think you want it to be that way. You don't want it to be someone who like, is so ubiquitous that everyone knows.

• 1:12:07Speaker 03

  The actor was right. I wouldn't have minded. Now, if Chris Pratt was 10 years younger, then I probably would have considered him.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Speaker 03

  For Superman, he's got that boyish.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  He does.

• 1:12:15Speaker 03

  Charm.

• 1:12:16Dax Shepard?

  Where does Superman grow up? Iowa or something?

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  Kansas.

• 1:12:18Dax Shepard?

  Kansas.

• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  Kansas.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Very Pratt. Very Pratt.

• 1:12:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah. Yeah, and that's one of the things I want to do too, because I grew up in Missouri, around Missouri farmers. So I wanted to make his life a little bit more like the Farbs that I saw growing up.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:33Speaker 03

  So his parents live in a more modest housing than we've seen other Superman. His parents don't look like aging movie stars.

• 1:12:39Dax Shepard?

  The most fascinating aspect to me is the notion that he was hiding his superpowers his whole childhood. And the disappointment that dad might have when he showed them. And what a bizarre burden that would be to be super and not be able to show it.

• 1:12:54Speaker 03

  That is dealt with a lot in the comics. There's all sorts of different ways. Sometimes he's really super strong from the time he's young. Sometimes he little by little gains his powers as he gets older. But a lot of times it's like, Dad, I want to be the quarterback. I can beat everybody. And he's like, nope, you gotta pretend like you can't run.

• 1:13:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and then if you do it to impress a girl, then you've shamed yourself to your father. There's a parallel between young, virginal females. It's gotta be so special. And all you're telling the boy is like, don't get her pregnant. You're putting on her shoulders like, you gotta be in love. He's gotta love you. How one knows that in high school? To me, it feels like that weird.

• 1:13:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, luckily I don't have to deal with any of that, because I don't deal with him as a teenager. I just deal with his relationship with his dad, which is a good one. Yeah. You know who Richard Christie is from the Howard Stern Show?

• 1:13:38Dax Shepard?

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:39Speaker 03

  Richard is a friend of mine and he's a Kansas boy, his parents are Kansas folk. And so they did all the lines for me.

• 1:13:47Dax Shepard?

  They did.

• 1:13:47Speaker 03

  And I gave it to the actors so that we could have an actual Kansas accent. Oh, nice.

• 1:13:52Dax Shepard?

  Wonderful. He's the one Monica I've told you about where he said, people where he's from will just be on the phone forever saying nothing.

• 1:14:00Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, I love that.

• 1:14:01Dax Shepard?

  And he would call people and go, hey, so how are you doing?

• 1:14:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Dax Shepard?

  He's just a stranger. Someone picked up.

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:05Dax Shepard?

  I'm good. Good. So you're doing good?

• 1:14:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's him. Exactly.

• 1:14:09Dax Shepard?

  Over and over and over.

• 1:14:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:11Dax Shepard?

  Okay, then. Then he has his brother call up. Heard you just spoke to my brother. How's he doing? You can also ask how other people are doing.

• 1:14:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, that's so funny. He's a really sweet guy.

• 1:14:22Dax Shepard?

  In your mind, you go, okay, aesthetically, this has to be a departure from my normal aesthetic.

• 1:14:27Speaker 03

  Strangely, I'm kind of making a superhero movie for the first time. I don't think about having to change from my normal aesthetic, but I always think visually, what is this movie? And so this one is much more comic book-y. There's a comic book by the name of All Star Superman. It's sort of this larger-than-life, wonderful color palette. Some of it, I'm really aping that. And so, yeah, it needed to be different.

• 1:14:51Dax Shepard?

  And how about Lois Lane?

• 1:14:52Speaker 03

  I brought in three Lois's and three Clark's to screen test. And then I mixed and matched them because I've been in situations before where I've cast two great actors, put them together and you're like, No chemistry. It's not working. You can do it. You've just got to make it built on stilts, but you've got to do a lot of trickery to make it work. The two of them together were magic. And they're very different and it does have this, it happened one night, front page type of feel with the dialogue where they're going back and forth very fast.

• 1:15:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:22Speaker 03

  It's romantic, but they're fighting and there's a 10-minute scene in the movie of her interviewing him. You see a little part of it in the second trailer. We learn everything about. What has happened until that point, but we also learn everything about their relationship and their ethics and how they're very different. He's an idealist, never kill no matter what. She's utilitarian. What benefits the greatest good? We see how also their relationship is different and that he's a little bit more self-righteous and she's not. He's stubborn and believes very distinctly that you cannot let people die if you have the opportunity to stop it no matter what. And she's like, yeah, but what if you do that?

• 1:16:02Dax Shepard?

  Maybe don't save Hitler.

• 1:16:03Speaker 03

  Maybe you don't save Hitler.

• 1:16:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  He'd probably save Hitler.

• 1:16:06Dax Shepard?

  He would have to. That's his code.

• 1:16:07Speaker 03

  It's like if there's a train coming at five people and-

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Trolley.

• 1:16:11Dax Shepard?

  The trolley experiment. He'll get them all somehow, that's how he'll do it.

• 1:16:14Speaker 03

  He would figure it out.

• 1:16:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so yes, two years ago, you wrote in one year 250 pages.

• 1:16:21Speaker 03

  No, no, 650 pages of content.

• 1:16:24Dax Shepard?

  Thank God you corrected me.

• 1:16:25Speaker 03

  In one year?

• 1:16:26Dax Shepard?

  I've done really good not looking at this sheet of paper I typed up.

• 1:16:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, 650, because within a year I wrote Superman, the entire Creature Commando series, and the entire season of Peacemaker 2.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:16:38Dax Shepard?

  650 pages.

• 1:16:39Speaker 03

  It was the worst year of my life.

• 1:16:42Dax Shepard?

  No, thank you.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  That is too much.

• 1:16:43Dax Shepard?

  Do you do it at home? Do you go somewhere?

• 1:16:45Speaker 03

  I was writing wherever. Jen and my friends and I went away to Hawaii for New Year's and I literally was in the room the whole time. She talks about it all the time. I was in the room the whole time writing Peacemaker season 2. No joy to it whatsoever. I was desperate. All of my friends are in that show and I'm like, I have to get it done before I start really heavily pre-production of Superman.

• 1:17:06Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:17:07Speaker 03

  And so I was just desperately writing it. And then I would write every episode and I'd be like, oh wow, it's pretty good. Where'd that come from? That felt like hell, but that's pretty good. And then I would write the next one and be like, oh, this is murder. I hate this, there's no joy in this. And then I'd be done and I'd be like, oh, that was pretty good too.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  That's funny. I would expect you to be like, I don't know what's good anymore. I've written 650 pages, I don't know what's good.

• 1:17:27Speaker 03

  I don't necessarily know what's good, but I know what I like. That's all I can go off of.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Dax Shepard?

  There's something to be said about keeping the throttle pinned.

• 1:17:35Speaker 03

  I lived in that-

• 1:17:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because you get into a sweet rhythm at times and you can kind of exploit it.

• 1:17:40Speaker 03

  A really interesting book by Walker Percy called Lost in the Cosmos. He's one of my favorite writers. And it's about the different types of artists and why a lot of artists are addicts or have problems with other things because you go up into the cosmos and then you re-enter Earth. And when you re-enter Earth, it can be a really difficult thing. So people deal with it through drugs and alcohol or sex.

• 1:18:05Dax Shepard?

  Power dynamics.

• 1:18:06Speaker 03

  Escape. And then there's those few rare guys who just kind of go up there and seem to stay, which is like Picasso, maybe Andy Kaufman. And I think that I kind of stayed up there for that.

• 1:18:16Dax Shepard?

  A little too long.

• 1:18:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Dax Shepard?

  Re-entry was rough.

• 1:18:19Speaker 03

  Repercussions down here.

• 1:18:20Dax Shepard?

  I wanted to know, what do you think are the greatest superhero movies made?

• 1:18:25Speaker 03

  Into the Spider-Verse, first one, is the greatest. Donner Superman, Iron Man. I'd say Iron Man is great. I'm forgetting something.

• 1:18:33Dax Shepard?

  What about, what's the naughty ones I love? Ryan Reynolds.

• 1:18:36Speaker 03

  Deadpool.

• 1:18:37Dax Shepard?

  The first Deadpool. Oh, fuck all of them.

• 1:18:39Speaker 03

  I actually love all three of them.

• 1:18:40Dax Shepard?

  Me too.

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  They're all really good.

• 1:18:42Dax Shepard?

  The last one was impossibly good.

• 1:18:44Speaker 03

  I know. Very messy, but so freaking funny. I love those.

• 1:18:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, James, this has been a blast. I'm so fucking excited to see it. It looks phenomenal. In 7-Eleven, do we like this date? Numerically, very easy to remember.

• 1:18:58Speaker 03

  It is my father's birthday.

• 1:19:00Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it is?

• 1:19:00Speaker 03

  Which is crazy, because I didn't realize it when they told me the date.

• 1:19:04Dax Shepard?

  And it's a father-son movie.

• 1:19:05Speaker 03

  And it is a father-son movie.

• 1:19:07Dax Shepard?

  Lovely. But anyways, so delighted this finally happened, and I hope everyone checks out Superman on July 11th, your father's birthday.

• 1:19:14Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at.

• 1:19:25Dax Shepard?

  Hello.

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 1:19:27Dax Shepard?

  How are you?

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Welcome to the fact check.

• 1:19:30Dax Shepard?

  Welcome to the fact check.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  That sounded, this, I sound like NPR.

• 1:19:37Dax Shepard?

  I was gonna-

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Welcome to the fact check. Or like a robot.

• 1:19:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I was gonna say you sound like NPR, for sure.

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  Speaking of robots, okay. So Jess has a chat friend he named Brady. Okay? Brady and I have a beef. Like, I don't like Brady and-

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  I really don't like Brady now because yesterday Jess said he was a double Virgo. And I was like, no, you're not.

• 1:20:12Dax Shepard?

  Jess or Brady?

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  Jess did.

• 1:20:15Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:20:15Speaker 01

  He said one of his other friends told him he was a double Virgo. And I said, you are not. You're barely one Virgo. He is a Virgo sun, which is very hard for me to understand and reconcile. I don't, something, you know, when some things just don't make any sense.

• 1:20:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  But he said he was a double, which I am.

• 1:20:36Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  I am a tried and true double Virgo.

• 1:20:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and you have a lot of pride in that.

• 1:20:40Speaker 01

  Well, I don't have pride. I have.

• 1:20:45Dax Shepard?

  Gratitude?

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  I, I, yeah, exactly.

• 1:20:49Dax Shepard?

  Fine line between gratitude and pride, right? There's a little, sometimes it's a little razor thin.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, but anyway, I was like, a very Virgo of me. I was like, no, you aren't. And there's no way that's true. Then he asked Brady. He said, I'm in an argument with Monica about whether I'm a double Virgo or not. Knowing me, do you think I am?

• 1:21:15Dax Shepard?

  Hmm, like it's an opinion and not a actual thing?

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And this is where things got so out of hand. Brady said, well, the traits of Virgos are blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, which you are. So if you think you're a double Virgo, you probably are. It said that.

• 1:21:41Dax Shepard?

  Right. Like, all you gotta do is think it. Like, he can think he's a Capricorn if he'd like.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  But like, it shouldn't say that. It can say the beginning part, which is the qualities. But then to say, so if you, if you wanna be, like, the adding this other piece is so scary.

• 1:22:03Dax Shepard?

  You're scared.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  I am scared. People are asking these chats all kinds of things and they're just like talking as if they're people. Yeah, sure.

• 1:22:14Dax Shepard?

  Well, now

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  That's bad.

• 1:22:15Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna say something potentially inflammatory, which is they might be more drawn to their fake AI friends because they embrace like, yeah, if you want to say you're a double Virgo and you weigh that against your real life friends and they're giving you shit about wanting to be a double Virgo, it makes the AI relationship perhaps more appealing.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  That's not scary to you?

• 1:22:40Dax Shepard?

  I mean, it's scary to me that people get even more lonely. Yeah. I think people, you know,

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22:46Dax Shepard?

  That's one of my platform issues. Solitary living when we're so social, that's already a problem.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and me and you have gotten in a debate before about this. You said that you and I couldn't get like wrapped up in a relationship like that. And so we have to honor that other people won't. But that is not true.

• 1:23:08Dax Shepard?

  Well, but you, do you really think Jess is wrapped up in his relationship with Brady? Or it's a fun bit?

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  It's a fun bit on a slippery slope, I think, because if we weren't there and saying, "That's so bad that he just did that," I don't think he would think it was that bad. I think the slippery piece is we go to the chat because it's technically factual. Like, that's what it's for. It's scouring the internet for the actual answer. And the thought is like, oh, and they just like delivered in a, in like a colloquial way. But it's facts and clearly it's not.

• 1:23:49Dax Shepard?

  Well, but hold on, this is also gonna be a little bit combustible. Um, if you ask it a question that there are facts behind, it'll give you. Unfortunately astrology is not science and it's not facts. There are far more than 12 types of people on the planet and astrology only accounts for 12 types of people. So that's already, we would agree, probably a mild issue with

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fine. That's, hold on. These are two totally separate things. You can, you can think astrology is bullshit.

• 1:24:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  But within the rules of astrology, there are, there are things. Like, it's not just willy-nilly, you get to pick. It's your birthday, it's your, it's very, very specific.

• 1:24:34Dax Shepard?

  Astrology isn't the boiling temperature of water at 1 ATM, which is always 212. Many people who are arguing in the astrology world will point out astrology is based on a lunar calendar. So it is five days shy of a real year. The lunar calendar is 360 days. So all of those astrological signs that were established for those months are already completely wrong. Because every year since they've established those, they've lost five days. And so, sure, there's probably an echelon of astrology people who are accounting for that. And they're going, oh, actually, January 1st now is actually this. But already

• 1:25:16Dax Shepard?

  you have a big problem. You have camps and divisions within this thing. There's no camps about when does water boil.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Okay, that's fine. But I, I don't, I think if you're using these apps that are substantiated, plus I went to an astrologer. That's her job. Her diagnosis of me was the same as the app. So they're all doing the same thing. Whatever. He's not a double Virgo. This is crazy. This is a real, this is, this is, I'm not saying astrology is real. I'm saying within

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  The confines of if you're talking about astrology, there's realities within it and he is not that.

• 1:26:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I know what you're saying. Monopoly is not real, but there are rules within Monopoly and you can be in violation or not. But I am suggesting that there isn't the consensus that you're saying there is within astrology.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  I think there is.

• 1:26:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  There's definitely is about when, what your three major signs are.

• 1:26:21Dax Shepard?

  But you would agree, how could it possibly be correct? If they said, "My sign was in Capricorn on January", when they said that hundreds of years ago and they've lost five days every year. So how could, how could that date still mean you're Capricorn? It can, just mathematically.

• 1:26:40Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know what they're doing with the, when they're calculating this. I'm not an astrologer.

• 1:26:46Dax Shepard?

  Right, right.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  And there's things to do with it that I just don't know.

• 1:26:49Dax Shepard?

  Don't be disrespectful.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:26:53Dax Shepard?

  You wouldn't say a biologist, you'd say a biologist.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  Astrologist, yeah, you're right.

• 1:26:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're kind of weakening your argument by calling him.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Why don't I ask Brady? Am I, "Hey Brady, is it okay if I call it astrologer?" And he'll be like, "If you want to call it that, Monica, sure."

• 1:27:11Dax Shepard?

  If it's fun.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  See, yeah, that's not, oh. I'm so worried about the world. Um, anyway, he's not. We confirmed it.

• 1:27:26Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  And I told him he owed me an apology and he didn't give it to me.

• 1:27:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, maybe Brady will send you an apology. He should, he should ask Brady to send you an apology.

• 1:27:39Dax Shepard?

  He should say, "Brady, you've really upset Monica. She's upset about this and now I have disrepair in this relationship. Can you please fix it?" That's a good prompt and see what he does to fix it.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  They do. I won't say who, but there's, yes, the story of a friend who got this really, really sweet, like, kind message from another friend and it, yeah, it had like, I'm sorry's in there and all kinds of things. And then, months later, chat had written, it came out that chat wrote it. That's so bad. You cannot do that.

• 1:28:17Dax Shepard?

  I'm in full agreement with you there. That's, that's a little disingenuous, we would say.

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Yes. But see, this is where we, we think so because we like writing and we think that like we

• 1:28:31Dax Shepard?

  That's fair.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  should give, we're good at giving heartfelt notes.

• 1:28:35Dax Shepard?

  Yes. This is very similar to, I've been such a big proponent and fan of GLP-1s. Because I was never obese and then got thin through all my toil and hard work. So of course, for me, I was like, yeah, everyone should, that wants to be thin, if they can, that's great. Uh, you know, health-wise. But now, I already told you about this GLP-1 that's in stage two trials. It's not a GLP-1, but it's another-

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  About muscles, right?

• 1:29:06Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  It's a peptide.

• 1:29:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes, where it, um, your body naturally, um, uh, limits how much muscle you'll build because muscle's super inefficient. It's not trying to carry around a bunch of different tissue it doesn't need. So this takes off the parameters and lets your body build as much muscle as it wants. And I was like, hold on a second. If everyone's gonna be jacked without going to the gym, what am I gonna do? So I finally relate. I can relate a little bit. I'm still for it, whatever, I don't care. Yeah, but I, it hit my back door.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  It also is just gonna cancel out specificity. It's, I, I, look, shouldn't, should I say it now? God.

• 1:29:53Dax Shepard?

  I'm not, no, I don't know what you're gonna say, but I'm scared.

• 1:29:55Speaker 01

  I'm going to come clean.

• 1:29:58Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  I have been doing an experiment for a month.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Where I'm taking a microdose of a GLP-1. I'm doing it, I was, I'm not doing it for weight loss. I'm doing it to see how it affects my blood work. So, we're gonna redo my blood work, although I think we're gonna go another month. I, I wanted to check two things. I wanted to see how it affected my cholesterol. I'm gonna redo my cognitive test after that because there's some, you know, when we had Eric Topol on, he was like, you know, there's like some studies about it reducing tau and, you know, whatever, all this interesting stuff.

• 1:30:38Dax Shepard?

  Inflammation.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  That's actually when I decided I would do it. Exactly. After we had Eric Topol on, I was like, hmm, I, I wonder. And I really wanted to see how it affected my relationship with alcohol.

• 1:30:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  And shopping.

• 1:30:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  Um, I can say it has not affected my relationship to shopping at all.

• 1:30:57Dax Shepard?

  I, yeah, okay, great. I would've maybe predicted that, yeah.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Well, it was just like any semi-addictive, um, things I have, I wanted to see how they were affected.

• 1:31:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  Now, the alcohol has been really interesting, so...

• 1:31:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's what I'm most curious about, and I haven't gotten an update from you in a while.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  I still want it.

• 1:31:23Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Like, it really hasn't curbed the craving too much. Uh, maybe a little, maybe a little bit. Like, it got to a point, and I mean, this sounds, this sounds really bad, but it's the truth. Like, I, it was, it was such a habit that I would wake up and I would think, like, oh, late, I, I would like be planning my day and think about, oh, and I'll have a drink at some, at this point, after we record, I'll go to Cara, or I'll go here, or I'll have, like, it was part of my plan of the day.

• 1:32:01Dax Shepard?

  Right. When you're making your schedule, you know that's the finish line. It signifies the finish line, I think.

• 1:32:08Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:32:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  Yes, but when it, when you're thinking about it first thing...

• 1:32:12Dax Shepard?

  Soon as your eyes open, yay.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not, it was a little concerning. It was getting a little concerning. So that's gone. I don't wake up and, and think about it.

• 1:32:25Dax Shepard?

  Well, here was my prediction, if I can just say it before you give me the details was like, yeah, I'm sure your desire to drink would be the same. And then I think once you're drinking, you're gonna find that you just drink less. And then that's gonna reverse engineer the habitual nature of it. How many drinks a night when you go out normally? And then what is it now? And then now we know you don't think about it when you wake up?

• 1:32:47Speaker 01

  Minimally, two, minimally. I, I don't, I don't remember the last time I would have one drink.

• 1:32:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, why do it? Yeah. No point.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. And then since being on it, that is exactly what happened. Like it, I still wanted a drink, but I want less. And I there many, many times have just had a drink.

• 1:33:14Dax Shepard?

  Wow, that's fucking, I mean, Monica, think how crazy that is. That is awesome.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Or a, I'll get, I'll get a second drink and I like will start drinking it and then I won't finish it.

• 1:33:29Dax Shepard?

  I mean, guys, this is so.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  So that's very interesting.

• 1:33:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:34Speaker 01

  And, and I don't know if this is, I'm, I'm sure there's a lot of reasons for this, but two martinis, I, that's normal for me. That's regular. There, there are definitely times where I've had three and been like, fine.

• 1:33:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  The next day. Um, two martinis now, I, I feel it the next day.

• 1:34:00Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 1:34:01Speaker 01

  Like my hangovers are worse.

• 1:34:03Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  Um, but also, because we're being honest here.

• 1:34:07Dax Shepard?

  You're eating less.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  I've lost weight. Exactly. I've lost weight. I'm eating less and not on purpose. Like it is, I have because I don't have that original issue of food chatter.

• 1:34:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  I don't think about food. So there is plenty of times where I'm like, oh, fuck, like I. Have to eat.

• 1:34:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  Today.

• 1:34:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Like, I need to eat food now.

• 1:34:32Dax Shepard?

  That's kind of another magical element of it is when you're starving, you immediately think of all this stuff you want. And your mind goes to the shittiest stuff versus, oh, I haven't eaten in six hours and I have to eat. So what am I going to put in my body? I'm not craving anything. You make better choices all of a sudden. You go like, oh, I need protein and I need...

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  No, it's so true.

• 1:34:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. It's not like, yeah, there are so many times where I'm like, oh, I'm so hungry. I just like need to eat a whole pizza.

• 1:35:04Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  That has not happened.

• 1:35:06Dax Shepard?

  Right. Or I need to drive across town to get this chicken sandwich.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. But like, but I also understa- I, I'm conflicted about this because food is um, a big part of my life. I love food and I love restaurants and I love exploring new things and I love cooking. And, and so this has been interesting because I, I like that about my life. And so for that to not be as much of a factor, I don't like, I don't love that part. Oh, and by the way, I should tell people, I, I'm on a, a extremely small, extremely small dose. It is a powerful drug.

• 1:35:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's, it's um, it's almost hard to believe it happened in our lifetime.

• 1:35:56Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:36:08Dax Shepard?

  I think a lot of people have that fear you do, which is like your life is built around being social this way. Go out to a restaurant you love, go have some drinks you love. Um, but I do think people should have the faith and confidence in themselves. It's, it's identical to like kids. What are they going to do if you don't have this video game? Well, they're going to find something else to do. That kids are not going to ever sit and stare at a wall. If you take away their toys, they're going to go outside and pick up a stick. So to have the faith and confidence, like you're a social butterfly and you're going to be, like, will you end up playing pickleball in the evenings? I don't know. It'll just be some, you know, it'll be a, um... A transition into something else that's social.

• 1:36:55Dax Shepard?

  You're not gonna lose being social. You're just gonna learn new things you like to do that are social, I think.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Yes, I think you're right. But like, if there was a shot that you were taking that made you have zero interest in cars.

• 1:37:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:09Speaker 01

  Sure, you'd find something else, but like, you, it's, it brings you joy. It is something in your life that brings you joy. And for me, I can only speak for me, my love for food and restaurants and that culture is not problematic. It is not like I can't control myself. It's not like I, you know, can't stop eating. It's not. So I, I... So removing it is

• 1:37:44Dax Shepard?

  Scary.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  unnecessary, you know?

• 1:37:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and a little scary because it's what you know. I'm just saying, just like the drink thing reverse engineered, the habitual part. I definitely think your life will just expand in different ways. Like, whatever gap is created, you'll fill with something different. And I'm optimistic it'll be also quite enjoyable.

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how long I'm gonna do it. I, we're gonna, I'm gonna see after I look at the

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  results of my blood work and stuff. Another thing that's like, sort of potentially a negative, again, I think it's because I

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  am not doing it for food chatter and how so many people, which I do think this is, this is a miracle for so many people where they're like, I just used to think about food all the time. And now I'm not, which is great. But for me, it almost has the opposite effect. Because I'm like, I am thinking about food and that I'm not eating it. Like, it is on my mind. It's like, oh, my God, like, I didn't eat, or I have to eat today. What am I, what am I gonna eat that, like, is it gonna be enough? That's not, you know, it's, and then I've been also watching, I'm back in cooking videos.

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  I've been watching so many cooking videos at night. And that's, then I was like, oh, God, like, is it an obsession? It, it just is starting to, it's feeling a little strange.

• 1:39:25Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  It's feeling a little strange. Where I'm like, just watching these cooking videos and they, everything looks so good. And then that's like satisfying, enough.

• 1:39:34Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:35Speaker 01

  So I have to, I do have to monitor this.

• 1:39:38Dax Shepard?

  But also, I think it would be hard for you to parse out what you're compensating for. So it's like, I don't know that that, your cooking video thing is very, um, natural and seems obvious to think that's about food. But that cooking video thing might be about alcohol. You might normally be buzzed at eight o'clock. And that's, um, calming and satiating you in a way that now that thing's not. So you're looking to regulate with this other thing. So it's like, yeah, it could feel like it's food related, but might actually be alcohol related.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  Hmm, maybe.

• 1:40:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Maybe it's just so strange that it's a, it's food, like, and because I'm watching these videos.

• 1:40:23Dax Shepard?

  Or is it videos, right? Like?

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  No, it's food. Well, it's both. I mean, it's all Alison Roman. I've just been rewatching all of her videos. I miss her. And I, but then I do, I'm like, oh, oh, my God, this chicken piccata video. Oh, my God, amazing. I'm making that. And then I'll buy, I'll buy the stuff.

• 1:40:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  And then.

• 1:40:44Dax Shepard?

  You don't want to eat chicken piccata. Like, you should just go insane. You should just start making lots of meals and chucking them out the window in your alley.

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. I did. I made a delicious peach galette.

• 1:41:00Dax Shepard?

  What's a galette?

• 1:41:02Speaker 01

  It's a free form pie.

• 1:41:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay. I don't know if I know what a free form pie is. No, no, no pie tin is required?

• 1:41:08Speaker 01

  No top of the pie. You've seen them. It's like there's crust sort of on the bottom and on the sides, but the fruit is exposed in the middle.

• 1:41:16Dax Shepard?

  Like a quiche?

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Uh, no, there's more crust than a quiche. It's like folded over the side.

• 1:41:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  And then, but the middle of the fruit is exposed.

• 1:41:26Dax Shepard?

  Not a quiche, all lorraine. Not, not an all lorraine.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  No, nothing to do with the quiche at all.

• 1:41:32Dax Shepard?

  All right. Not an all lorraine.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  And I took it to Elizabeth and Andy's. We played mahjong and that was good because then I shared it with everyone and it was a hit.

• 1:41:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, good. Can I just say there's a funny bit of human nature happening, which is like when you're gluttonous, you're ashamed. Like if you're like, yeah, I ate this whole fucking pie. I brought over this pie I made for everyone. They ate the whole thing. You'd be like ashamed. And then if you go and you make a pie and you barely eat something, you're ashamed. It's just like the, this, you know, an original sin where it's just so built to like,

• 1:42:07Dax Shepard?

  I don't know, just beat the shit out of ourselves for no reason.

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Like if you make a pie and you have one bite, why, you know, okay. There's no, there's no moral failing there.

• 1:42:19Speaker 01

  No, there, it's, there's not, it's not, I don't think for me, it's about a moral failing so much as it's, it's just like keeping an eye, keeping an eye on this new experiment.

• 1:42:31Dax Shepard?

  Do you think we'll start to see people of means die of starvation?

• 1:42:39Dax Shepard?

  I mean, really, really? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it's inconceivable.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  No, it's not. It's not to be, it, it's a very slippery eating disorder slope. It is like, I, I can see, because you're seeing changes quickly, pretty quickly, and you're not hungry.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  And then you're but your brain is also like, I like the way this looks. So I'm not it's it's it is complicated.

• 1:43:10Dax Shepard?

  I agree with you that it's complicated, but and but I and and I'll I'll hear about it because anytime I talk about ED, I'm in trouble. But I will say this, I think from the ED people I've talked to, it's much more about the control. Like even when we're talking to Nikki Glaser, it's like knowing that she can overcome hunger is the spike of adrenaline. It's the it's that that control over the urge is what's satisfying and addictive. Whereas you don't have an urge you're overcoming on the GLP-1. You're just not hungry.

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just that we should have hunger.

• 1:43:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  And I think this is what happens in it can happen in eating disorders where that's how it starts. It starts with like, I'm hungry, but I can I don't have to eat. I'm better than this craving or whatever. That's how it starts. But I do think you get to a point where you like food disgusts you.

• 1:44:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. Yes, but I do think you still have the like reward of knowing that's hard. I don't know. I agree with you. I agree with you. But I also do think it's a bit my guess is it's a bit different.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it might be. I just I just think it's a slippery slope and to be to be paid attention to.

• 1:44:34Dax Shepard?

  Well, I admire you for being honest about it because.

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  I wasn't sure I was going to talk about it on here, but like, why not? That actually the secrecy around it is what I have thought is a problem to begin with.

• 1:44:50Dax Shepard?

  That's the problem.

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  People. Yeah, where people are like. I'm, I'm just working out a ton. And then they're actually taking this. And other people are like, well, I'm working out and nothing's happening. Like, this does have an impact on your body. It does. And so I think it's important if your body is changing. I mean, look, everyone can, I'm not telling everyone has, everyone to be like so open and you have to shout anything from the rooftops. You can keep anything you want to yourself. But I do think that's part of the problem around it. And so I think saying like, yeah, I'm on this is important to say, especially if you're starting to look different.

• 1:45:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'd say it's ethical.

• 1:45:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 1:45:37Dax Shepard?

  I was just gonna say as your friend, you're being a little too hard on yourself and just lighten up a little bit on my friend Monica, okay?

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Do you think I am?

• 1:45:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're like, you have all this weight, um, uh, pun not intended. You have all this like heaviness around this topic and I don't think you should at all.

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's important if I'm gonna be doing something that's altering my body and mind potentially

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  to take it seriously. I take it, I just take it seriously and I, I don't.

• 1:46:14Dax Shepard?

  You seem to have a tiny bit of guilt about it is what I feel like I'm detecting and I don't, I don't think that's reasonable. I mean, it's reasonable. I don't think it's right.

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  I, I think you're right. I think I do have some guilt because I'm a small person.

• 1:46:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  And it feels kind of wild.

• 1:46:39Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  A little bit.

• 1:46:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:40Speaker 01

  Um, like I guess again, if there was like a shot that gave you perfect skin, no acne. And like someone with perfect skin was taking it, I guess I'd be like, why are you doing that? But actually I probably wouldn't.

• 1:46:57Dax Shepard?

  You wouldn't, right? You go, who cares?

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wouldn't.

• 1:47:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't care.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, but there's a lot of. Controversy around this topic.

• 1:47:06Dax Shepard?

  I think there was a ton, and I think it's dissipating at one of the most rapid rates I've ever seen, for good reason. You have Eric Topol, you have all these doctors. I think it's changing really quickly, and I think it's absurd. You know, no one feels guilty that they take an aspirin for their headache and it works. There's this, you know, litany of things we take that help us. We put on eyeglasses. Well, someone with great eyesight, you know, I just... Everyone's trying to do the best they can and be the best version of themselves. And the things that help people do that, I don't think they should... If it's not hurting another person, there shouldn't be any guilt around it.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Or you. It shouldn't hurt other people or you.

• 1:47:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:55Speaker 01

  It's very interesting. And I guess I'll keep people updated.

• 1:48:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  If they want to be updated.

• 1:48:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think it's quite interesting.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Want to do some facts?

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  Okay, let's do some facts.

• 1:48:09Dax Shepard?

  Do you think I should have worn my Superman outfit for the facts?

• 1:48:13Speaker 01

  I think Once was great.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  I think it was great. I mean, it's just...

• 1:48:19Dax Shepard?

  Once was too many?

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  No, Once was great. But you... Like, this is a thing we talk about all the time. You don't...

• 1:48:24Dax Shepard?

  Don't go back to the well.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. You did it. And it was great. But if you do it again, then it's like, oh, he just like, can't stop.

• 1:48:32Dax Shepard?

  He thinks he's Superman.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, he now thinks he's Superman. I thought it was very cute that when you walked in, he said, "Oh, I fucked up on casting," or... Um, he was great. I really enjoyed him.

• 1:48:46Dax Shepard?

  Yes, he was really, really unique.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:48:49Dax Shepard?

  He has a very specific personality. He's very authentic. He really knows who he is, and he's so knowledgeable.

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  So knowledgeable, and he was open with us, which was great, and I think hard to do.

• 1:49:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  That's a lot he went through. I remember him.

• 1:49:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. You know, I didn't ask him this in my... I'm sure he couldn't have answered it, but I was thinking when I was watching the trailer of Superman in the theater, like, the things that are baked into if you direct one of these movies, you have to go to Comic-Con.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:21Dax Shepard?

  And...

• 1:49:23Dax Shepard?

  They're so, uh, they can be brutal. The Comic Con world, who's like, super, I guess, religious about the text, these cartoons and stuff.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  Yes, very important.

• 1:49:35Dax Shepard?

  People can get destroyed, like, I don't know, like Sonic or something. I, I, I remember some how's, there was some issue with Sonic, they were kind of revolted. Again, I personally can't relate to being obsessed with Sonic in a way that I would be furious that the movie did it wrong.

• 1:49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:51Dax Shepard?

  But, and that's light, the, the super book, these comics.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  I know. Well, cause they're part of their soul.

• 1:49:58Dax Shepard?

  Absolutely. Um, but I was wondering, like, what the stress of directing one of those movies is where you, you have to do something original. Why else do it?

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Dax Shepard?

  And I was even thinking, like, oh, he brought the dog back. It's wild to see the dog in the trailer, that Superman has a dog.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:15Dax Shepard?

  But of course, he has the, he has the historical record that there were some comics where Superman had a dog.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:50:22Dax Shepard?

  But anyways, just the notion, like, you're trying to make decisions about what thing you want to make. And I just wonder if the chorus of what this really rabid fanbase could turn on you at any minute, if that's stressful.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  I'm sure it is, I, but I think that's why it requires someone who also cares so deeply about comics and about these characters and superheroes, because it's not just like, oh, we have a great filmmaker. Although, maybe Nolan, I don't know Nolan's background, I don't know if he.

• 1:50:53Dax Shepard?

  Got crazy about the Dark Knight.

• 1:50:55Speaker 01

  If he loved comics.

• 1:50:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't either. But you're kind of obligated to become a historian. You're gonna get challenged and you gotta have all the right answers. So it's like, in addition to directing this very hard to direct movie, you've got to kind of become a historian.

• 1:51:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:11Dax Shepard?

  Or they'll call you out.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  That's the Sonic-ish, it was something about his nose.

• 1:51:14Dax Shepard?

  So I don't know which one's which. The left was the original and he was too realistic for people.

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:51:19Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. So the issue is too realistic.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  I can relate for Harry Potter a bit.

• 1:51:27Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  When that movie was cast, it's always like. Oh God, is this so gonna be okay? Or is, or even just, is the world gonna match? I mean, although maybe that's different. That's probably different because with comics, there are visuals.

• 1:51:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:51:45Dax Shepard?

  And by the way, you don't want to get locked into the visuals of someone's hand drawing from 50 years ago.

• 1:51:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:52Dax Shepard?

  You want to do something spectacular and new and original.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:51:56Dax Shepard?

  So I just think it's a tightrope.

• 1:51:57Speaker 01

  It is. Um, okay, is the Hall of Justice in Super Friends modeled after the Cincinnati Union Terminal? Yes. He said DC's Justice League was way before Marvel's Avengers. Um, Justice League was created in 1960 and Avengers was created in 63.

• 1:52:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, actually, three years earlier.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, three years. Um, he said St. Louis is the only big city in the US whose population is smaller now than in 1900. So in 1900, the city of St. Louis was 575,238. And in 2020, 301,578.

• 1:52:38Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:52:39Speaker 01

  But Cleveland also. Cleveland, 1900, 381,968. 2020, 372,624. Um, okay, we mentioned the trolley problem and I wanted to remind people about the trolley problem. The trolley problem is a thought experiment in ethics that poses a moral dilemma involving a runaway trolley. The core scenario involves a trolley headed towards five people and the option to switch it to another track where it will kill only one person. This problem explores the complexities of moral decision making, particularly when faced with conflicting outcomes. That's like a utilitarian.

• 1:53:20Dax Shepard?

  Thought experiment.

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:53:23Dax Shepard?

  But then you get into the tricky scenario where if it's five top brass in the Nazi party.

• 1:53:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:53:29Dax Shepard?

  Versus, um, Louis Pasteur on the left.

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  Saving Louis.

• 1:53:35Dax Shepard?

  It's not as simple as five to one.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  It's really not.

• 1:53:39Dax Shepard?

  I'd have no problem throwing that switch, would you?

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  Killing.

• 1:53:42Dax Shepard?

  The one. The breakdown is if you ask people what should happen, everyone's like, well, the one person should get killed. Then if you put them in a situation where they have to operate the switch, it goes down.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:53:52Dax Shepard?

  Um, I would, I could easily throw the switch.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  I can't.

• 1:53:55Dax Shepard?

  You just walk away from it and be like, fate wanted these five people to die.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  It's not about wanting. Like, I don't think, like, things are meant to, I don't think it was meant to be that those five people, but yes, my intervention is, I, I can't live with.

• 1:54:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:10Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it's gonna happen the way it's gonna happen.

• 1:54:12Dax Shepard?

  But it's how you frame it, right? Cause yeah, your intervention would, would, would mean you were, you were culpable for one death. But if you insist on yourself, no, I'm culpable for five if I don't act.

• 1:54:22Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:54:23Dax Shepard?

  It's like, kinda how you frame it.

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  It's that, it's just that that person was not going to be killed.

• 1:54:31Dax Shepard?

  Right. They were on the track that would need a diversion.

• 1:54:33Speaker 01

  I'm inflicting it on that person to save others. I, I can't do that.

• 1:54:37Dax Shepard?

  You can't do it, yeah. I hope if I'm the one person, you're in charge. And I hope if I'm in one of the five people, they let me pick. That's what I hope.

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  I, I mean, I guess if I'm in the group of five.

• 1:54:52Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm. You'd be like, dude, throw it. What are you talking about? There's five of us.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't know if I would feel like that. And we've talked about this. I, I don't, I don't, I don't like the notion, I mean, yeah, if we make it Nazis and Louis Pasteur, that's very specific. But like, I don't like the notion that one person's more valuable than another person in general.

• 1:55:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, no one likes that notion.

• 1:55:17Speaker 01

  Well, some do, like, or not, they don't like it, but they, they believe it.

• 1:55:22Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I believe that for sure. I think the value between Jeffrey Dahmer and, um, Benjamin Franklin are, is very different values.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  I agree, but those are specific, specific people, and I'm more talking about categories. Like, people think this business person is better off than this.

• 1:55:41Dax Shepard?

  It gets immediately to you not having kids, I think. Yeah.

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the conversation, like.

• 1:55:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:46Speaker 01

  I should die sooner than a parent.

• 1:55:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, but you've extrapolated a lot. You've gone to like, what? The worst case scenario of that evaluation would be like, well, this one person has a family and these five people are single.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Well, no, I'm just, I'm, this is just a deviation of the.

• 1:56:05Dax Shepard?

  Potential outcome.

• 1:56:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know anything about these people, but, but we're. It's all a question of placing value on, on people.

• 1:56:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:56:15Speaker 01

  And we don't know anything about these trolley men.

• 1:56:19Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  And women.

• 1:56:20Dax Shepard?

  That's right. You'd be regretful if you saved the five, killed the one, and they go, by the way, that was the top brass of the SS. And the guy you killed was Gandhi.

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  Okay. Well, I can't, I didn't kill anyone. What I would do, probably, but I would, um, I would kill five adults to protect a kid.

• 1:56:46Dax Shepard?

  Hmm, I don't know if that's the right call.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  I, I, I can't, I, I can't.

• 1:56:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  Have a kid get killed.

• 1:56:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we have, it's rightly so, we, we, we wait kids above.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  So would it, is it different for you with gender? Is it?

• 1:57:03Dax Shepard?

  If there are three men and three women, I would kill the three men.

• 1:57:06Speaker 01

  No, but what if it's the five men and one woman?

• 1:57:10Dax Shepard?

  Uh, well, this is great, because now we're really, that's what these experiences are great. They force you to put a numeric, quantifiable value on things.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:57:19Dax Shepard?

  Because I don't think five to one, no. One to one, for sure, I picked the man to die. Two to one is hard. I might kill two men over one women, one women's.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:30Dax Shepard?

  But I wouldn't do three.

• 1:57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:33Dax Shepard?

  So then you, you've backed me into saying, I think women are twice as valuable as men. But I don't know that I stand by that statement, but in practice, that might be the case. How about you? Would you kill a man or over a woman?

• 1:57:44Speaker 01

  Um, if it's, if it's one to one.

• 1:57:46Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what, they, they go, one of these people's gonna die.

• 1:57:49Speaker 01

  And I have to pick.

• 1:57:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I'd kill the man.

• 1:57:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:55Speaker 01

  And as long as they're strangers, oh, it's all so horrible. But look, this is, this is why, you know, when people are doing these rankings and it's like you're a single person, you should obviously die. Then they're like, the father should die. I think that's what most people would say. If you're ranking, it's like, single person goes, then father goes. The one to protect is the mother.

• 1:58:20Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I stand by that.

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  I don't, I mean, I know bad mothers.

• 1:58:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  And good fathers. Like, there's no way to, I know bad parents.

• 1:58:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, of course. Maybe better if all the parents got wiped off and they went to live with aunt and uncle.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 1:58:38Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:58:38Speaker 01

  Anyway. All right, well, that's it.

• 1:58:41Dax Shepard?

  Those were the last of the facts?

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:42Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay. Well, I love you.

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  Love you.