Chris Paul on Teammates, Titles, Kobe, Legacy, Parenting & Sixty-One Tribute to Grandpa

FOLLOW THE PIVOT PODCAST: MERCH | https://pivotpodcast.com YOUTUBE | https://www.youtube.com/thepivotpodcast INSTAGRAM | https://instagram.com/thepivot TWITTER | https://twitter.com/thepivot TIKTOK | https://tiktok.com/@thepivot FACEBOOK | https://www.facebook.com/thepivotpodcast FOLLOW HAPPY DAD: https://www.instagram.com/happydad FIND HAPPY DAD: https://www.happydad.com/find A future first ballot hall of famer, CP’s storied basketball career from Wake Forest to the NBA to Olympic gold medals to being a 12x All-star to leadership as union President to trailblazing the fight against social injustices while creating a legacy far beyond the court, truly makes Chris Paul one of the most impactful athletes of our time. Opening up about these moments, sharing how he’s celebrated the good and learned from the bad, dealt with the heart aches of loss, injury, trades and the passing of his friend Kobe Bryant, Chris doesn’t shy away from answering tough questions and setting the record straight on rumors over the years and giving us a court side seat to his 18+ years of evolving as a man and teammate to earn the respect and carry on making the name on the back of his jersey one we will never forget. Reflecting on childhood moments that helped shape him as the man he is today, Chris emotionally remembers the strength and work ethic he learned at an early age from his grandfather who he tributes so much of his growth and success to. Scoring 61 points after his grandfather’s passing in his honor seemed serendipitous to the story of family and the foundation he would continue to build upon as his career and life evolved. Recognizing how fortunate he was to grow up with both his parents and maintain a close bond, Chris has prided himself in always being a hands on dad and takes that job the most serious and with the most joy. And of course Channing couldn’t let CP slide without asking him about the infamous Banana Boat photos that surfaced years ago…definitely don’t want to miss this one! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 0:30Speaker 02

  Hey CP, what up, boy? Good to see you, man.

• 0:33Fred Taylor?

  I ain't seen you since... Spotted in Miami.

• 0:36Channing Crowder?

  Appreciate it, bro.

• 0:38Fred Taylor?

  Spotted in Miami called, uh...

• 0:40Channing Crowder?

  Feel like I know y'all. I don't know y'all, but I feel like I know y'all.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  How you doing?

• 0:44Channing Crowder?

  Nice to meet you.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Ryan.

• 0:46Fred Taylor?

  What's up, boss man? It's a pleasure to meet you.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  Hey, CP.

• 0:50Channing Crowder?

  Teaching him right.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  Can you out hoop that dude? What's up, man? How you doing? I'm all right, thank God. Man, good? I be with your family all the time. I know, I know. We been taking... He's spending more time with my family and I spend more time with little Chris. Exactly. Chris, look. Troy following up, man, look.

• 1:16Channing Crowder?

  I ain't gonna cuss because his kids are around, but what's up, man?

• 1:21Channing Crowder?

  You good, nigga? Jalen, man, everything straight?

• 1:28Speaker 02

  All right, and we'll call you when we're done. My son said, little Chris said, his house is so big, but it's in the middle of nowhere. It is, bro. Chris, where... You went... Oh, when you was with Kingston? And y'all went down there? Y'all went out there? Because I got my kid's location, right? And so they was with my family. And I was like, okay, we thought they was at their house. Then I looked at his location and he was in San Diego. I was like, oh, where he at? Where he even took my kids? How many kids you got?

• 1:53Channing Crowder?

  Three.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  Three?

• 1:54Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, 11, 10, and 2.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Ooh, you started over.

• 1:57Channing Crowder?

  I reached COVID, bro.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  That's tough.

• 1:59Channing Crowder?

  COVID. He said COVID.

• 2:03Fred Taylor?

  That reset him up. See, I got four... I got five boys and a daughter. Yeah. So my oldest son...

• 2:10Speaker 02

  I'm done with them. My last one just graduated high school.

• 2:12Fred Taylor?

  Oh, yeah, you done.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm 24, 22, 18.

• 2:15Fred Taylor?

  My youngest is 11.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  You don't even look like you older after having kids.

• 2:18Channing Crowder?

  Them boys are real loose back in high school.

• 2:22Fred Taylor?

  That's what it was, high school.

• 2:23Channing Crowder?

  I was gonna tear my ear off.

• 2:25Fred Taylor?

  The high school.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  It's crazy, man, I tell y'all. I mean, football different, but like with us, like I'm in the locker room with guys as close in age to my kids than they are to me now.

• 2:34Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? And like, who was it? Obviously, y'all know J.J. Reddick. Yeah. J.J. was my teammate and when we first met, he didn't have any kids, right? Me and my wife was sitting with him and his wife and they was like, you know, it's a lot of people to be like, we're just gonna enjoy each other and have kids later. And then he started seeing me every day at practice with Lil' Chris. Next thing you know, he came to practice one day and he was like, Chelsea's pregnant. And I never thought about it. You just like, was dope about having kids like that though, is your kids got a chance to see you play.

• 3:04Fred Taylor?

  Right, yeah.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Right? And so I say that, I be talking to Devon like and all this, cause he ain't got no kid or whatnot, but I'm so happy that they got to see me play and they ain't have to go to YouTube.

• 3:14Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  You know what I mean?

• 3:15Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, but you picked the right person to make babies with.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  Oh, no, that's a big thing.

• 3:20Channing Crowder?

  But you know, I tell.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I tell guys all the time, be careful who you procreate with now.

• 3:24Fred Taylor?

  It also, you know, pays to have a strong 18-year career and still going.

• 3:30Ryan Clark?

  We won the Super Bowl, Jordan was eight. He broke us down at every walk-through on Saturday.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  See?

• 3:37Fred Taylor?

  That's cool.

• 3:37Ryan Clark?

  Cause I would take him to walk-through all the time. And so then the next year, he was the babysitter. He'd make like a hundred dollars every Saturday morning, cause everybody started bringing they boys and he'd watch them.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  See, ain't nothing like it. And I always say this, cause like I said, playing as long as I done played, Monty Williams coached me back in New Orleans my last year and then he was my coach till they just let him go. But when I first got there, I used to always be like, Coach, where Elijah at? His kids. And Coach used to be like, man, I try to like, not bring them around. I was like, oh, Coach, no, no. We all together too much not to. And I be on my kids' head all the time. I'm the hardest person on them, because their advantage is not they last name.

• 4:16Fred Taylor?

  Correct.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? That's not their advantage, that's actually the disadvantage. Their advantage is seeing the work.

• 4:22Fred Taylor?

  Access.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Right? So you gotta. You gotta bring them to practice sometimes. You gotta let them see what you're doing. Because if you think they just gonna make it off your last name, that's what's not gonna happen. So Coach Son real nice too.

• 4:37Ryan Clark?

  Really?

• 4:37Speaker 02

  He one of the top five players in the country now.

• 4:39Ryan Clark?

  Dang. How old is he? How old is his son?

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Ninth grade.

• 4:41Ryan Clark?

  Ninth grade? The other thing too, to have kids that end up doing what you do. I think in basketball, it's really prominent. Like, all the dudes that I watch play, it seems like all of their kids hoop. But in football, not everybody, because not everybody wants to do it.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  Well, not everybody wants to do it, and then, I'm be honest, I played football. Like, I played varsity football as a freshman or sophomore, and I was on the JV basketball team.

• 5:09Ryan Clark?

  Really?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  Like, I'm the way I am because I played football, right? Like, straight up. I'm the way I am because I played football. I won't let him.

• 5:18Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  I won't let him. And think about it, like, this sound crazy, and I don't know y'all take on football and all that. I know y'all made a career, but it's so many more guys who played football who won't let their kids play.

• 5:30Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  That ain't the case with basketball.

• 5:32Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying?

• 5:33Ryan Clark?

  It's different.

• 5:34Channing Crowder?

  But I say this is what changed my mind, because I got an 11-year-old, about to go in, his first year tackle's coming up, right?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 5:40Channing Crowder?

  And you know Pat Surtan? He played in the league, he's a pro bowler back in the day, and now his son was a first-round draft pick. So I started talking to Pat, and I was like, Pat, man, you, you know, all the head injury, all that stuff.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:50Channing Crowder?

  How did you, what was your decision to let little Pat play? He said, man, if God gave him the gift to play at a high level at this, I'm the one stopping him. And that's what made me change my mind.

• 6:01Speaker 02

  And I respect, I respect the hell out of him, because it's so crazy. I say that I started playing tackle when I was like five or six. Right? Like, I loved football. I went to the national championship for football, like Pop Warner, like, everything was football. You know what I'm saying? But then, he played flag, he was nice, he was out there, and when he wanted to play tackle, I didn't let him.

• 6:22Channing Crowder?

  Right.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  And I almost be mad at myself sometimes, because if you look at a lot of the best basketball players, it's because we played football.

• 6:28Channing Crowder?

  That's true.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Like, I like the contact and hoop because of football.

• 6:32Ryan Clark?

  It's also a certain level of athleticism that goes into it, that I think you learn to play through physicality while being athletic. Where in basketball, you know, I actually, I tweeted it during the game, I was like, man, it would be hard for me, and one, I ain't got the skill to play basketball at your level, but it would be hard for me to have to fake soft.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? For me to know a man is pushing me and to not lean into the push, or to not push him back, or to not be physical, to have to let him push me and almost feel like, oh, I let you win.

• 7:05Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Like that, like that part doesn't compute for me.

• 7:08Ryan Clark?

  You talking about when Bron fly into the fourth row? When somebody touching him?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Hey, but he's 6'8", 260.

• 7:12Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, Bron, nobody pushing Bron into the fourth row.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  It's crazy, cuz like sometimes somebody do something to you, you embellish it a little bit or whatnot because you trying to get a foul, you trying to get possession. Like that, that can go either way. But what you saying is so real, like it's crazy cuz I talk about my kids, but they right here, but they know I'd say it to them too. I get so frustrated with my son because he only wants to play basketball. Right? Like, he know it. Like, I, I be on his head. I be like, play something else. And I think about it, like when you play football, y'all play Pop Warner too?

• 7:44Fred Taylor?

  Yeah.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Like, all the stuff you had to do, like you didn't even think about. When you had to do six inches, right? You was getting your abs stronger. You didn't even know. Like, all this different type stuff cuz I'm always with him now, trying to make him do pushups to get him stronger. Playing football, you wasn't lifting weights, but you sort of was. You know what I'm saying? All the stuff, them up downs, the bull in the ring.

• 8:07Fred Taylor?

  That you did for punishment? That indirect stuff, that made you better. It made you stronger physically. And I always go back to, um, in terms of the kids and sports, and if they wanna play this sport or that sport, or football, exposing them, allowing them to go. And if they fall in love with it, so be it. It's a million ways to die.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's also a million ways to podcast, but it's only one way to pivot.

• 8:33Fred Taylor?

  Yes, sir.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  So, we gonna start.

• 9:00Ryan Clark?

  Man, welcome to The Pivot. This is Chan. I'm RC. This is Freddie T. To our partners, Happy Dad. We appreciate you guys, DraftKings. I mean, I think, you know, we've had enough conversation. Bro, your career speaks for itself. Finished 18 years. 12-time All-Star. 2013 All-Star, MVP. 11 All-NBA Teams. 9 times All-Defensive Team. Rookie of the Year for my, at the time, New Orleans Hornets. 2-time Gold Medalist. NBA PA President from 2013 to 2021. Largely responsible for the bubble.

• 9:42Ryan Clark?

  Was said that you actually kept basketball going in 2020 after Jacob Blake was shot. And so I just think there's so much that goes into you that we want to get into. But with all of those accolades, you'll also add author on June 20th with 61 Life Lessons From Papa On And Off The Court. You had a joke, or you said that the Cedric the Entertainer skit with the cigarette in the mouth. Dude fixing your carburetor, but talking to you, never dropping the cigarette. And just somebody who embraced the entire community. You said he was not only blue collar, but blue pants, had the red rag.

• 10:27Ryan Clark?

  Red name stitched on, on his shirt. You committed to Wake Forest. There was one hat. He was wearing it. And shortly after that, you're at a football game and you get a phone call. Take us through that night and the events that transpired after you got that phone call.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Man, first of all, thank y'all for having me. It's an honor and a privilege, man. I watch you guys and see you guys and all the conversations you have. And I tell you, sometimes I see it and I'll be like, damn, I want to tell him this. I want to tell him that. You know what I mean? But I appreciate it. But what you were saying was that day was a day I'll never forget. You know what I mean? It's been 20 years now since that happened. And I was at our high school football game, got a phone call from my brother. My older brother CJ had drove down for my signing and he had went back to school. And he said, I'm coming home. And I was like, what you mean you coming home? You was just here. And he was like, Papa sick.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  And like, what make it so crazy is, I was just with my granddad the day before. I'm probably one of the biggest days of my life. And as I'm going to the car, I see one of my cousins and he grabbed me and he told me, uh, they killed him. Right? And so at seventeen, and I know there's a lot of people in this world who done had way crazier tragedies than, than I have, but that was tough. That was tough, you know, when people that's close to you pass away, or die from sickness, or things like that, that's a lot easier to deal with. But knowing who my grandfather was and what he meant to my family, it was a lot for me to have to deal with.

• 12:07Channing Crowder?

  Somebody had to take over as a patriarch. And you say you seventeen, did, was that stress for you? Did you take over? Was it, you know, a community thing? How, how did you replace?

• 12:16Speaker 02

  You know, what's funny is like, I am blessed and fortunate to have mom and dad. Right? Cause I always talk about this, when guys win, or they become successful or something, they always say, thanks mom. And my mom dope, don't get it twisted, but my pops is like a real dad. You know what I'm saying? And he always been that for my family. My grandmother died when I was eight from lung cancer. I, I'm from Winston-Salem Tobacco Row, so everybody smoked cigarettes. Right? Everybody, like, my, my class field trips as a kid was to the tobacco plant. Right? So, everybody had COPD or whatnot. And my grandmother died of lung cancer when I was eight, my grandfather's wife. And at her funeral, he like put his arm around me. And I remember, I'm very visual.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  I remember how my mom and my aunt looked at the funeral, and it was tough. When she died, me and my grandfather got even closer. Right? And y'all know what it's like, like with your parents. My parents was hard on me. So anytime I got a butt whipping, I call Papa. Papa, they tripping. Papa, come get me. So, after church, I would ride with my granddad. And my granddad was the first person I knew with money.

• 13:21Channing Crowder?

  The wild.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But like, real money. You know what I'm saying? Like, my granddaddy used to have a fat wild of money in his pocket. Right? So I just, I just saw the way he moved and it's crazy, like being older now, that was twenty years ago. I was just on the phone talking to somebody about how my granddad never went on vacations and stuff, cause he just worked. And I think sometimes we find ourselves doing that too, because we gotta provide. And so when that happened with my granddad. I did take on a bit of responsibility and I knew what I wanted to do for me and my family.

• 13:53Fred Taylor?

  So the title of the book 61 represents your grandfather's age at his passing. And the day after, you had a basketball game in which you scored 61 points. So my question to you is this, Chris, how in the hell?

• 14:11Fred Taylor?

  I'm sure the anger and the frustration was there, but to be able to go out there and score 61 at your will and then purposely airball a shot so you wouldn't score no more and it would finish on that number. Like, how do you, how in the hell were you that fucking good and that upset at the same time?

• 14:30Speaker 02

  To tell you the truth, I still don't know. Like, my dad still has the tape. Like, my dad is the hoarder. He has everything. So he has the tape. So I've watched bits and pieces of it, especially with my kids, so that they can see it. But it was seriously like an out of body experience. We was actually playing against my mom's old high school and all my family was there. And when I got 59 and when I did the in and out and hit the floater and got 61, it was like pretty emotional, right? And it's...

• 15:02Speaker 02

  My dad was assistant coach for my high school at the time. So I went to the free throw line and when I threw the ball out of bounds, I just looked at my dad and fell into his arms crying. Because my granddad was so much, like not just for my family, but for the community. Like, everybody knew me as Mr. Jones grandson, right? My granddad was...

• 15:23Speaker 02

  It's crazy because even writing this book, the whole process of it was like therapy for me. Like, sometimes, I hadn't talked about this stuff in 20 years and I try not to get emotional about it. But my kids, we found a video recently of my granddad's 60th birthday party, right? And like I said, back in the day, everybody had tapes of everything. And it was a tape set up like this at the cookout, right? You couldn't do that today because you don't know what somebody gonna say. You know what I mean? And I was looking at the tape of it and I took a video of it and I put it in my family group chat. And my mom called me crying, my kids, my wife, they had never heard my grandfather's voice. You know, you take some of that stuff for granted, man, and it's just been cool, the

• 16:08Speaker 02

  whole process of it, learning more about my family and give my kids an opportunity to know who their great grandfather was.

• 16:16Channing Crowder?

  And I know that was in high school, but dudes do it to this day when dudes go out there and drop 61. I'm a Heat fan, I watched Jimmy drop 56 early in the playoffs. Do you tell your teammates, hey, y'all running wind sprints today? Do they know that they ain't gonna touch the damn ball with offense? Because I ain't gonna play with your ass too much longer.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  That's a real good question, because what's crazy is, nobody knew. My teammates didn't know. My teammates didn't know, and the other thing is, is if you watched the game, it wasn't, like, I shot it literally every time down. I think I still had 10 assists in the game. All I did before the game was, in high school, we used to shoot free throws or whatever before we got on the bus and went to the game. All I told my coach was, because we was nice, my high school, we was nice, and so I told my coach, I said, "Coach, if we get a big lead tonight, just let me play. Just let me play." Like, you know, when you get up 20 and 30, they sit you. I said, "Coach, tonight, just let me play." The only person that I think knew was my backcourt mate, dude named David Gillette.

• 17:13Channing Crowder?

  You're known as facilitator. You were 11, what, 11,000 assist club, what, six-time assist leader?

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Something like that.

• 17:20Channing Crowder?

  Something crazy. You don't even need to know what's going on.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Played a long time.

• 17:23Channing Crowder?

  But to make that decision, because everybody loves glory, everybody loves glory. You're capable of scoring 30 a game, but you decide to be a facilitator, you better at assisting because you got the rock, and now you say, "I'm gonna pass up." To this day, I watch you now, bruh. To this day, you'll pass up shots to give somebody else.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  You know what? Some of my coaches, that's what they on me the most, and it's so crazy, man, because I, I mean, I had seasons where I averaged 23, 21 or something like that, and, I don't know, I think that's probably one of my biggest faults, is not being more aggressive, you know, and I, I battled with that because... I guess since I was younger, I always knew I could get any shot I wanted to. Right, but knowing that it's a team sport. I'm always like, let me get this guy a shot, let me get this guy a shot. That's sort of been the downfall of me too. So I'm still, 18 years in, I'm still trying to get better. You know what I mean, and finding that balance.

• 18:18Channing Crowder?

  Don't throw the ball away.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  He don't turn it over, he just throws it to other people.

• 18:24Channing Crowder?

  Come down and keep the ball.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  I know, right, I know.

• 18:26Ryan Clark?

  I usually, so I usually pick basketball players I'm a fan of by the way they play basketball.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:32Ryan Clark?

  Right, and I'm not talking about the skill, like you guys have. The fact that you can go score 61 means that you have a level of skill that most humans don't have with the basketball. People call you the point god, all these, all these different things. But I like you is because I think you'll fight. I'm just being honest, like basketball players who I think will fight become my favorite basketball players. You just happen to be really good at it.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Got it, who fights?

• 18:57Ryan Clark?

  But, I know you would, I've seen it. But outside of that, you mentioned your father, Charles.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:03Ryan Clark?

  Being a real dad. Obviously, Mr. Nathaniel Jones, your grandfather, was a real father. And the scoring made me think about it. You scored 41 in game six of the Western Conference Finals. And before you cuss and leave, you know, you say, I wish my son and my family was here. And there was a story written about you afterwards about how you're not only debunking father time, but you're debunking the black myths and narratives of fatherhood. How important was your upbringing, having two men like that in your life,

• 19:43Ryan Clark?

  to teach you how to be a father to your children and a husband to Jada?

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Man, I'm gonna tell you this, man, I'm glad I'm here to. Speak on this, sometimes I, I just feel like I'm always doing the work, right? Sometimes people who talk do this and do that, but I just feel like I always just try to put my head down and do the work. And I'll never forget this, I need to go back and see who it was, but some of the talking heads some years ago, you know, certain things you may not speak on, but you pay attention. We was playing against the Lakers, and this was when I was with the Clippers, and it was our, our away game, and we was up by like 20 or 30 or something like that, and the people who sit in the courtside seats had left already. So my son was sitting like two or three rows behind, and I asked my wife to let him come sit over there, right?

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Game wasn't over or whatnot, but my son came and sat down there close, and I remember it was on one of them shows the next day, and they was like, "How disrespectful is this? The game is still going on, Chris Paul got his son sitting over there." And I remember being so hot in that, in a world where they always talk about us not being dads, and not being fathers, and not being present, and all this. My son had just left the doctor and found out that he was gonna have to have this surgery, and we was leaving to go on the road the next day. So, yeah, I'm at work, but I seen an opportunity to be dad for a second, right? So I brought him down there, and I remember just watching them talking heads,

• 21:16Speaker 02

  like, "Y'all done lost y'all mind," you know? And that's why I think I'm so excited now that I see Deuce, right? Jason Tatum's son, out on the court before the game, you know what I mean? Being, like JT is a dad, you know what I'm saying? He gonna go out there and do his job and work and all that stuff, but he a dad. I was probably one of the first ones, I don't know, like that, used to bring him to the press conferences with me, right? I used to take Chris to the press conferences with me after games, and he'd say wild stuff or whatnot, but- For them 40 minutes, 48 minutes while I'm out there on the court playing, I'm locked in. I'm locked in. But when the game over and we break it down, I'm dad.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Y'all know what it's like being a professional athlete, early mornings, working out, training, or whatnot. And so, I've always tried to be that because I had a dad who, who like worked. My pops, man, he found a way. He made a way. He coached all my teams, right? He coached all my teams. And I don't get to do that.

• 22:19Fred Taylor?

  Yeah.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Right? And so, I've always just tried to be as present as I can be in a world that is extremely abnormal.

• 22:29Channing Crowder?

  I gotta get a happy dad on that one.

• 22:32Channing Crowder?

  Gotta, gotta get a happy dad on that one, man, because that's all.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  You can throw mine.

• 22:35Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you. You got it.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  You know, that's why I left, which I ain't never throw it to you.

• 22:40Fred Taylor?

  Nah, I caught some passes, bro. I caught a ton of passes, bro. What you mean?

• 22:44Channing Crowder?

  I'm in it.

• 22:45Fred Taylor?

  What you mean?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  It's just what you mean. You don't have to answer.

• 22:48Fred Taylor?

  I probably caught, I probably averaged 30, 40 catches a season.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a lot.

• 22:53Fred Taylor?

  I mean, it was, it was decent. That was back then, but I was Totten Rock. In the new NFL, they catching, I don't know, Christian McCaffrey, 100 catches, other, other backs.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Le'Veon.

• 23:02Fred Taylor?

  60, 70.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  It's funny to hear y'all say new NFL, because.

• 23:06Fred Taylor?

  It's changed though. It's changed.

• 23:08Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, I played in the old NBA and the new NBA.

• 23:10Fred Taylor?

  Correct.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Two different, two different games.

• 23:12Fred Taylor?

  But that's the, that's the testament to your longevity and, and your athleticism and your talent, you know? But just going back to being present, you know, speaking and standing there real quick. You have a ton of initiatives with HBCUs. You have a few docu-series that you did with ESPN that you produced at FAM, Southern, and I believe in North Carolina Central.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 23:34Fred Taylor?

  Right? Why is the support so strong for those schools?

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Man, I tell you, the support is because of. When you're younger, like I didn't really get into history and all that stuff till I got older. Right? I was like a math kid when I was like in school. I hated history. I ain't wanna know nothing about nothing. And as I started getting older, I started to ask a lot more questions. I've just always been curious. Right? So when you're a kid and you're growing up, you just know where you at. You know what I'm saying? You just know what's around where you at. So I grew up in Winston-Salem. Wake Forest was down the street, Winston-Salem State, both in Winston-Salem. I don't know nothing about the school. I don't know that this is a PWI. I don't know this is a HBCU. I don't never go to Wake Forest. I don't ever, like, they got like trees around the campus, so you can't see there.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  But I would go to Winston-Salem State all the time, because we would go to the football games on Saturday. My cousins, all my family went there. And so, uh, that's just my normal. Wasn't till I got to the NBA and got a little older and I started saying like, "Oh, okay, so this school like this, because they get a bunch of money, they get the proper funding. Oh, okay, it's only 105 HBCUs? Okay, you got HBCUs right here because our people couldn't go to these different schools once upon a time and get the education." Right? So it's always been, like, it's genuine. Right? And I always say this.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  I went to Wake Forest University and I'm so grateful for that opportunity and what I was able to do from Wake Forest. But that doesn't mean that I still can't support Winston-Salem State. And T and all, because I ask y'all, y'all went to the U, right? I know you was at LSU. They went, they went to Florida. Oh, Florida. Y'all went to LSU. Oh, yeah, University of Florida. But y'all was down there in Florida, you was at LSU. Right down the street from Southern. From Southern. Did y'all ever go over to FAM?

• 25:28Fred Taylor?

  We would take trips up to Tallahassee and slide to FAM.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:31Fred Taylor?

  But we had a nice two-hour drive to.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  My wife, my wife go watch, but.

• 25:35Fred Taylor?

  The snack, you know what I'm saying?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Right, right. So, so that, that culture and all that stuff, man, is, is real. It's real. And so for me, um, it was about.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Just showing people that they they got that support. You know what I mean? They got that support. And then the other thing was about not just wearing the shirts and the hoodies and all that. It's really putting dollars and cents behind it and trying to figure out how I could just help any way possible.

• 26:02Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, I want you to talk about a few of your initiatives so you can share with the people without them watching. But did that love for HBCUs, did that influence the decision to graduate from Winston-Salem University and not Wake Forest?

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:16Fred Taylor?

  Congratulations.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Oh, I appreciate it. When I went to Wake Forest, I didn't know I was going to the NBA. Right? I wasn't like the kid who just went to school for a minute and already knew that he was getting drafted. So I went to Wake to get a good education so that I would go out into the workforce with a degree. And so, actually, right when little Chris was born, I was taking classes. I was actually, he was born in 09. I'd been in the league for, what, four years? And I was going to class at Wake Forest. Then at one point, I made, I remember I made a USA team and I was taking classes and I had to go to USA and one of the teachers failed me. I was like, man, can I make that up? Can I make that up? So then, just like anybody, I took a nice hiatus. And then I remember, right before the pandemic and during the pandemic, I was like, I'm gonna take some classes.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  I want to graduate from Winston-Salem State. I went to Wake Forest, did those couple of years. I'd love to merge that whole thing together, man. And it was a process. It was one of the dopest things ever. Like, some of my classes, I'll just tell you this, like, some of them was online and your teachers would canvas. I had to get on canvas to see all my schedule and my classes, my classmates. I had some of my classmates email me and be like, is this really, Chris? Is this, is this really you? Because some of the assignments would be, the first thing you gotta do is you gotta email two or three of your classmates and tell them who you are and what you do.

• 27:39Speaker 02

  Man, I think, well, shoot, I left my wallet in the car, but I got, I got my student ID. I keep it with me, man, because that was a memorable day.

• 27:47Channing Crowder?

  But why the hell did you want a degree? You say your fourth year, you went back? I don't want a pocket watch, but you already had bread. And then through years, you made a lot of bread. Why did you need a degree? Because they asked me, I left as a sophomore, red shirt.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:59Channing Crowder?

  They, they told me, hey, why don't you go back and get a degree? And I looked at them and was like, why? I make more money than a doctor right now.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Because, because you know what? For me, it's, it's about completion. You know what I mean, for real, it's about completion. I ain't never been a quitter, never will be. But it's something I told my mom, right, before I left school, like when I went, that I was gonna do it. I'll never forget my brother, when he graduated, I was just so proud. Everybody in my family didn't get that opportunity. You know what I mean? And so, when you doing like sets in the weight room, right? And they're trying to tell you, you got 10, right? And you get to 8, and he walk away and look away. Do you not do the last 2? Got to. You got to. You know what I'm saying? So it's just something about completion. Like, I wanted to finish and...

• 28:45Ryan Clark?

  I love that word, completion, because it's about finishing, right? It's about starting something and finding a way to the end. You are solidified as a great. You're going to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. After you went to the finals, you said that you were addicted to that feeling.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 29:02Ryan Clark?

  And not even in a joking way, these 2 have never been in a championship, so I'm gonna talk to you.

• 29:07Speaker 02

  They be saying, "I'm real sober now," is what they be saying.

• 29:11Ryan Clark?

  No, these 2 have never been in a professional championship. So every now and then, when I start talking about championship games, I like to talk to people who've been in the same sort of arenas that I have in those big moments. But for you, you have all the individual accolades you could ever want. You continue to play, you play the game hard. And you know, like I said earlier, just the way you compete is what I love to see out of great basketball players. How difficult has it been to be so close? I think game 5 in Houston, you guys have the Warriors on the ropes, you get hurt. This year, now you have KD, and you have Book. You know, you were a huge part of that, because now you can take the ball handling,

• 29:56Ryan Clark?

  they get spot up and shoot and play those games. Then you injure your groin. How difficult has it been to deal with so many almost for you?

• 30:05Speaker 02

  Man, it's tough on me, but I think it's probably even harder for the people around me, right? Especially my wife. My wife is the one who has to bear those late nights, those "I can't sleep," and my kids. Like, my daughter is the sweetest soul you'll ever meet in your life, right? The sweetest soul ever in your life, but she's at that age now where at school... Kids talk crazy to her, right? So she had a little boy, whatever, at school that said some reckless stuff to her. It was like, "Your daddy ain't never gonna win no championship," right? And my baby is so, she's special. She'll hold it together there, but when she got in the car, she called. And she was upset. And I had to have that conversation with her and talk to her, you know? And tell her, like, maybe some people talk and some people do. But that's part of it.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  It's tough, man, but can't nobody ever be harder on me than I am on myself. Right? And I feel like I've been in every situation there is possible. I was in the playoffs when I played for the Clippers. In game three or four in Portland, one of them, I go for a steal. My finger gets caught in the guy's jersey. Spiral fracture in my hand. I had to get 16 screws put in my hand, right? So I've had injuries and things like that. But the one thing about it, as mad as I am and whatnot, I cannot let that define me, right? I gotta get back to work. And I think that's what's happened over my career is when those things happen,

• 31:35Speaker 02

  I take that night to let it process. And then that next morning, I gotta get back to work. If that's rehab, if that's whatever it is. And then I work as hard as I can to make sure it doesn't happen again.

• 31:45Channing Crowder?

  Do you see how they treat Barkley and think about that? How the man is amazing, all the numbers, Hall of Famer, but every time they talk about Barkley, he ain't got a damn ring.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  I see it. The good thing for me is I'm still playing. You know what I mean? I'm still playing. And to each his own or whatnot. I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to win a championship. But it ain't like I go out there, like, I'm not trying to win a championship. You know what I'm saying? But I also know how blessed and fortunate I am that I get a chance to play. Nothing against guys who done won, but I guarantee you I could run off some guys that didn't want it, that sitting at home chilling, that wish they could still play. You know what I mean? Like, that championship you got is not gonna put you back in somebody's locker room.

• 32:29Channing Crowder?

  That's real.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? So there's gratitude there for still having the ability to play. I didn't realize y'all didn't win a championship. Have you ever thought about, like... If you did win it, like, what is it gonna feel like?

• 32:41Ryan Clark?

  Oh, yeah, shoot, I was laying in the confetti, Chris.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  No, I'm just saying, like, for y'all, for real.

• 32:47Fred Taylor?

  I never played, obviously, in the big game, but we were this close in Jacksonville in 99, which was forever ago, and, you know, you have those moments like, dang, what would it have been like? And then you tell yourself, it's okay, we'll get back. Then you don't see the playoffs again for five or six years. But those moments, and, you know, for me, still to this day, leading up to the Super Bowl is tough for me. Like, I still get pissed, upset, frustrated, and I've been retired now for 13 years, but I can watch the game, but just the moment leading up to it and then post-game celebration, I turn the TV off.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's real, you say that, go ahead.

• 33:30Channing Crowder?

  Oh, me?

• 33:31Speaker 02

  I know where this going.

• 33:32Channing Crowder?

  You don't care? I thought about, if I win a Super Bowl, this rolodex of women about to go through the roof.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  It's a wrap.

• 33:39Channing Crowder?

  I found out through time that my approach to sports was way different than everybody else. I was chasing money and partying.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:46Channing Crowder?

  You know what I'm saying, that's why I probably ain't playing, they double-digit years, I played for six, because I was beating my body to death the whole time I was playing. I was out every night.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Even nine-game days.

• 33:55Fred Taylor?

  Hey, here must, he talking about beating his body to death.

• 33:59Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, he ain't talking about just running through Miami.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Oh, I already know.

• 34:03Fred Taylor?

  Chris, just going back to it, you know, had some close moments, and unfortunately, the injuries happened, and there was another almost, that 2011 trade that didn't go through to the Lakers. How often, do you think about that? Because I'm, I went back and looked at the roster. Bean was still, Kobe's still putting up 27, Paul was there, Odom, they had a, they had a stick.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  They was gonna be in the trade.

• 34:27Fred Taylor?

  Oh, they were gonna be in the trade, okay, but still, Kobe was there, I don't give a fuck about nobody, Bean was still there.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  That whole story gonna be for a whole nother time, but it's crazy, because it was wild, man, it was wild. Shout out to my boy Trevor Ariza, who was with me. It's crazy how all that stuff went down, man. And how the GM called and me and Kobe got on the phone. We talked. We talked and a phone call came through to let us know that the trade was next. I went to go eat at a restaurant called Z's. That's where I was. Me, my wife, little Chris was a baby and Trevor. And the people in the restaurant started talking crazy like, F you, man. Get out of here, get out of here, get out of here. So then we left and went back to the condo and we thought the trade was happening. It didn't.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Like I said, me and Kobe got on the phone and Kobe's.

• 35:22Speaker 00

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• 35:31Speaker 01

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• 35:39Speaker 00

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• 35:53Speaker 02

  It's just special and it's different. And I think I was so excited about it. I seen a podcast from him from a while ago talking about us like with the All-Star game. Right? Like me and Kobe was just wired the same. You know what I mean? His talent was outrageous, but when we played against each other, we was about to fight just about every time because we was both on the same energy. And I don't know how to not play for real. Right? So if it's a preseason game, let's get to it. Right? If it's a regular season game, let's get to it. If it's an All-Star game, let's get to it. So Kobe, any All-Star game that me and him played together, I don't think we ever lost. Wow. Right? And that was just because our approach to it was.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  You get paid for playing in the All-Star game, right? The winning team get a certain amount, the losing team get a certain amount. But even if it was just for the winning team get a dime and the losing team get a nickel, we gonna play it the same way. You know what I mean? So I hate that that opportunity didn't get to happen because, especially at that point in my career, I always knew how good Kobe was even at catch and shoot. But he's never got a chance to show that part of his game. Right. But had we got a chance to play together, I think it could have been fun.

• 37:10Ryan Clark?

  The part of that story that's crazy is you actually had to go back to practice afterwards. And just to, honestly, bro, I'm from the NO. Just to be in the NO and people think you want to be gone, I already know how.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  So let me tell you this though, and I never spoke on this, and I tell you this, what a lot of people don't know, a lot of time then passed now, but they was coming to practice, right? Because it'd be a lot of people in New Orleans say, "You left us, you left us," whatever. If I keep it a hundred right now, I tell you, they was coming to practice and telling us that the team was leaving. They was telling us that the team was moving to Kansas City. They told us that the team was moving to, what was it, San Diego? Somewhere, somewhere in California. Like, me and David West had been there. You know what I mean? And we never spoke on this, I don't know why today, today I'm gonna say this, but they was coming to tell us that the team was moving. First, there was this one guy, Mr. Schwes, that was going by the team at one point, and then, you know, the NBA took over the team or whatnot. So when I left, it wasn't like, "I'm leaving New Orleans because I want to be out of here."

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Like, the team was saying that they were moving and going to do this and going in all these other different directions. So that's why me and D West was like, "Okay, it's time for us to move on." Like, that city, man, listen, you know and I know, like, I will never have another bond like I had with that city, right? You got drafted right before Katrina, too. I got drafted a month before Katrina, right? Two months before Katrina. Like, the city of New Orleans will forever hold the deepest place in my heart, right? My first two years was in Oklahoma, so I'm grateful for that. But then we went back to New Orleans, like... Man, I got real family to live in that city. Your foundation does work there too.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, my sister-in-law from New Orleans, Randy, Kev, the Greenups, like them, that's my real family that's there, man. So I hoop, I try not to trip at all, whatnot, but like when I play back in New Orleans and people start booing and doing all this, I be looking around like, y'all serious? You know what I'm saying? But I be cool on the court, because I get it, I get it or whatnot, but I used to have a party like after every game. Real talk, like after every game when I played in New Orleans, not some games, every game, I'd be up at 360. 360, yep. Or at Republic or whatnot, like that year, we went to the playoffs, 2008, was the same year the All-Star game was there. The Saints won the Super Bowl.

• 39:31Speaker 02

  I actually tore my meniscus, I was on crutches, I was out on poitres after the Saints won the Super Bowl. The night they won the Super Bowl, I was out there with my family on crutches, out there celebrating with the city of New Orleans, man. So for anybody who does doubt your love for it, was that you were actually emotional leaving. When it was finally time to leave, I read, you even said, like, there were people that you didn't even get to say goodbye to that were family. And so I think people see athletes and they think that we control all the business, but we don't. Which should be obvious by that situation, because at that time, the league was running the team and had to OK the trade.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Man, if you knew, boy, Ryan, I'm telling you, like, it's so much stuff that went down in that whole situation. I actually called David Stern one night, he was at dinner, he was at dinner with his wife, and I'm, shit, I'm just out here talking to Daniel. But I was, I called him, he was at dinner. So one of the biggest issues, this was right after the CBA had just finished, right? And so when the trade went through, what happened was a few of the owners was mad. They said, no, this trade can't go through, because we just had this whole CBA talking about player movement. One of the biggest issues and why I was mad, and there was a tweet that I sent out right after the trade got nixed, I said, wow, right? And a lot of people don't know, the biggest frustration was because at this point, it was about money.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  Right, so had my trade went through to the Lakers, I would have kept my Bird rights. Right, I would have kept my Bird rights, which meant that if I, the trade happened, then I would have got a chance at some point when my contract was up to sign a longer deal. Right, because I was being traded. But when they told me on the phone, "Go to practice tomorrow and be ready to play out the rest of the season." Right, so now that meant if I play the rest of the season and I leave as a free agent, I would get one less year.

• 41:32Ryan Clark?

  Yep, so that's one less year guaranteed too.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Guaranteed, so at the time it was like a $20 million difference.

• 41:38Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  So, like I said, I never talked about that, but that was the, the big holdup. Yeah, it was playing with Kobe and going to the Lakers, but also it was about, you just next to trade, which is gonna mess up my money.

• 41:52Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 41:52Speaker 02

  Which is even more to this story about why I went to the Clippers and how I had, it was cra- just know that. It was.

• 41:59Ryan Clark?

  My other question would be, like, we're talking about the league, and you know, I always mess with them about championships, but it's also different to represent your country. And you got to do that and be a part of the redeemed team. They know, and I talk about it all the time, I'm the biggest Kobe fan ever. And that's why I was so mad about the trade, because I was like, "We back." I was like, "We just got us two out of three." But you know, and so that was the excitement for me and a disappointment. But to be a part of that and to have that experience with Kobe Bryant, but also be the team that brought back some of the dominance we saw with the Dream Team, which is what I grew up with.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 42:38Ryan Clark?

  Right, I, I thought it was gonna be like that forever. I was like, "Oh, now that the pros are playing, this would be that sort of dominance." And that waned, what was it like to be a part of bringing that back? And now looking back on it, knowing that Kobe Bryant has passed, what sort of memories and place does that hold for you?

• 42:54Speaker 02

  It's a lot. In 2004, I was still in college. Right, so I played on the USA team, under-18 team, when I was in college in '04. It was like me, PJ Tucker, Sean May, right? It was a bunch of us that played in '04, which that was the same year that the USA team lost in Greece. Right, so '06, this is after my rookie year, so now Coach K is the coach. I'm one year removed from college, all that Wake Duke energy, right? And we go, and if you watch that documentary, you see that we lose in '06. That was tough, right? Because when we lost, we sitting in the locker room like, man, how we going home? How we going back home after we just lost? So then, '08, we just came in with a different energy.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? When Kobe said he was playing, that was also cool. But it was a lot of, a lot of different dynamics there. Because it's a lot of different personalities that's all coming in. And I'll never forget one of the things Coach K said that was, that was really big. And y'all know, playing sports this long, I take bits and pieces from all these coaches and stuff that you play with, teammates. He said, "I don't need you to leave your ego at the door." Right? Usually you always hear everybody say, "Man, everybody leave your ego at the door." He said, "Don't leave your ego at the door, because that's what makes each one of you great." He said, "Bring it in here, and let's figure out how to make them all work together." Right? So you pushing a break, and I got Kobe on one wing, Mello on the other, Bron, you know what I'm saying, D Wade.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  It was, that, that was memorable, because we felt like we really, like that year, we practiced. Like, practice was OD. It was cra- like, 2012, we ain't practiced as much. We sort of knew, you know, who we were, what we were gonna do. But 2008, like, you talk about getting out the mud. Like, 2006 was like, like, we had tryouts. Yeah. Can y'all imagine that? No, like, real talk. Like, we had tryouts in 2006. They brought like 30-something NBA players to Vegas, and like, throw the ball out on the floor, dive on the floor. Like, we had real tryouts. You, you imagine getting to the NBA, the highest point of your life, and then you get cut? Right, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Y'all probably done heard Gil talk about it before. Y'all ever heard Gil, Gil, Gil talk about it?

• 45:08Fred Taylor?

  Seen the Netflix Redeemed Team special, and they talk about how hard you were.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  No, but you gotta talk to Gil, man. Gil, Gil is one of the funniest people you'll ever meet, like, Gil with arenas, right? Before my rookie year, I lived in DC and worked out with Gil. Man. They cut, so they cut Bruce Bowen, which was wild. They like waited till we got over to China, right? And then cut him.

• 45:30Channing Crowder?

  Send him home?

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. They cut, they cut Bruce, this is 2006. They cut Bruce when we had got Wade all over there. And I remember we was like, why they wait till we get over here to cut him? Man, when they cut Gil, right? Y'all should ask Gil about it. When they cut Gil from that team, because the other thing too is when you think about these teams, it's not just always the best players, right? It's gotta be the best fit or whatever. And not saying Gil wouldn't have fit, but Gil was nice. I mean, one of the best guards I ever played against. When they cut him, ooh wee. Gil let all them know. He let all them know. He was like, listen, when I play y'all, I'm gonna give you 50. I'm gonna give you 60. And he said, if I could go back to college, Coach K, I'd give you 70.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  Guess what he did? When he played against Portland, Nate McMillan, 50. When he played against D'Antoni, 50. You know what I'm saying? But it was, it was some times that I don't think any of us ever forget.

• 46:28Channing Crowder?

  And bro, you talk about that, like I was gonna ask you about like the continuity of a team. Cause you hear all these teams and they love each other and they best friends till they don't win a championship.

• 46:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:36Channing Crowder?

  And now they won that tight like that.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Listen, man, boy, you said something with that one.

• 46:42Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, that gets on my damn nerves. I know you don't have to be friends to have a successful team. But what does it take to have that, those 15 guys really be, I guess, close enough or respectful enough to really win one?

• 46:55Speaker 02

  Y'all been on teams and locker rooms and stuff. I think at the end of the day, you gotta respect the other person, right? Just respect the other person's craft and what they bring to the table. I've been on some teams that we hang out, we kick it and all that stuff like that. But I've been on some teams where it wasn't like that, right? I'll tell you this, my favorite teammate my whole career is a guy named David West, right? Me and D. West, I was, my wife Jada and his wife Leslie was tight, like always together talking. Me and D. West didn't hang out and go to dinner and stuff like that, right? I still talk to D. West now, you know what I'm saying? But. On the court, we were so locked, right? Because there was a respect factor there and we led in different ways. I was more vocal.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  D West sort of just led with how he played, but it was a trust factor there. You don't have to be buddy buddy with everybody, but there's a thing that you don't want to let the man next to you down, right? I think that's the teams that's the most successful. When you so invested, you invested for him, right? Like, of course, I want to win, but I want to see you win. And you can feel that. Y'all know what it's like when you got a team like that, when you look at your teammate and he probably come hit your helmet and be like, "Let's get it. Let's go." You know, and so that's just my opinion.

• 48:11Ryan Clark?

  People always ask me about locker room. We have a lot more players than you guys have. But like, if Fred played offense, I would probably see Fred for like 15 minutes in the morning. At the team meeting, we'd see each other in the locker room or at lunch, and then on the field, we would alternate. He'd be on the field when I wasn't, and we'd switch. So you don't really hang with everybody like that. But I would always say, "All my teammates ain't my friends, and all my friends ain't my teammates." You know, and that's just how it was. But then you see like me and Troy, like, some of my best friends in the world. You know what I'm saying? But we both played safety, sort of like you said, we totally different humans. You know what I mean? But we were just so locked in that when he moved, I moved. Like, we always knew what it was.

• 48:52Ryan Clark?

  For you, CP, being as great as you are, you've been in New Orleans, you've been in LA, you've been in Houston, you've been in OKC, you've been in Phoenix. And the one thing that I love about you going to OKC was that people kind of wrote it off like, "He's just there." Right? And you competed, and the team competed. You know, I think it was in 2019, you started writing a saying on your shoe to let you know, like, you had to keep going. You actually do not seem like a nice person.

• 49:25Ryan Clark?

  And hearing people talk about you, I've heard like a lot of good things, how intelligent you are, how tough you are, this. No, I've never heard anybody say, you know what? I just love being around him. You know what I mean? But everywhere you go, those teams compete, those teams play smart, they play hard, and they win. How have you been able to adjust to different scenery, different locker rooms, different styles, and make it your own and have those teams play so well?

• 49:51Speaker 02

  It's hard, you know what I mean? Like, for real, probably to play with me, you know, to be my teammate or something like that, because a lot of times I got a one-track mind, you know what I'm saying? And that's to compete. And if you're not on that same energy, then it's gonna be hard. It's gonna be hard for us to get along. It's hard. That's why me and Book get along, probably because he on that same energy. One thing you learn in this league is that a lot of guys start to appreciate you after the fact. After the fact, right? A lot of guys will be like, man, C was hard, and then I leave or something, and then ain't nobody hard on him or whatever, and then it sort of just fall apart. You know what I'm saying? You know that old saying, they say when your coach getting on you, you should like it because when he stop?

• 50:32Ryan Clark?

  He don't care no more.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  He don't care no more.

• 50:33Ryan Clark?

  Yep.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Like, when I went to OKC, it was dope because I've never been the one that when everybody goes right, I usually go left. To each his own, whatever guys want to do when they say they don't want, like, they get traded to a certain place and they say they ain't gonna show up, right?

• 50:50Speaker 02

  I don't even know what that mean. When I got traded to OKC, I was in Atlanta at the Peach Jam with my A East team.

• 50:56Ryan Clark?

  But they already told you, though, they weren't trading you, right?

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daryl Morey.

• 51:00Ryan Clark?

  That's always great.

• 51:01Speaker 02

  My man, Daryl Morey had called me like a week before while I was in Vegas. He was like, you don't want to get traded to OKC, right? I was like, nah, not at this point, you know, in my career. He was like, okay, cool, I won't do that because you chose to come to us. Fast forward a week later, I was on the phone with my wife and then it said Darryl was calling. And then it popped up on Bleacher Report that I had been traded to OKC. And talked to Darryl for literally two seconds and hung up. Didn't see him again into the bubble. You know what I mean? But it is what it is and it shows you in this league and professional sports, don't nobody owe you nothing. Right? And I'll tell you this, OKC was unbelievable. I might not still be playing if not for that year I had there because I found that joy back.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  When somebody get traded, what's usually the first thing that happen? Like the coach or something from the, they call you, right? So when I got traded to OKC, nobody called me. Nobody called me. So the coach didn't call me for OKC. The GM, Sam Presti, who's a great guy, nobody called me. And so like another day went by and they ain't called me. And I asked my agent at the time, I was like, why ain't nobody called me? Right? And they was saying because they think you gonna get moved somewhere else. So I called him. I called Sam Presti. And I was like, hey, Sam, this is Chris. I was like, can you send me some of the guys on the team phone number? You know what I mean? Because I don't know about getting moved or whatever, but right now I play for the Thunder. So I need to reach out to these guys.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  And that's what happens, man, in the world of social media and all these alerts, right? So then everybody started saying, what? Chris don't want to be there. He ain't want to do that. So our very first team meeting, what did I do? I stood up in front of my whole team. I said, if y'all want to know something about me, ask me. I was like, I'm not asking to be traded. I'm here. Right? But that's not the way everybody operate. People let the media say this or say that in the locker room. And so a lot of people can't handle that. Right? So if it's an issue going on, if it's a problem, I'm gonna address it. Right? And I, that's who I am. You know what I mean? And so when people can't handle that or don't like it, then it is what it is. But I've always stood on the fact that I know who I am.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  And I do right by my teammates, whoever that is, any of them, if they can't be around, it is what it is. But I know at the end of the day that I can stand on that.

• 53:23Channing Crowder?

  That personality trait that, that, like you say, they call it killer mentality. They call it Mamba mentality, all that stuff. And like you say, you know how it's supposed to be. You think your personality turned off teams or people in the past? Because like Ryan said it nicely. I'll clean it up and say butt wipe. You don't seem like one sitting down with your kids here, bud.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  My kids that hurt everything. You can say whatever you want to say.

• 53:48Channing Crowder?

  Okay, brother.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  My kids that hurt everything.

• 53:49Channing Crowder?

  I think if you ask the number of people, they'll call you asshole.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 53:53Channing Crowder?

  Has that negatively affected your career or life in any way?

• 53:56Speaker 02

  How so, though? You know what I mean?

• 53:57Channing Crowder?

  Just with the trades and things. You going from team to team to team is, you know, rubbing people the wrong way. Somebody embraces you because you're on the court talent. They don't really know you, bro. Then you're in the vicinity, then you're being Chris Paul, and that turns them off.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  I totally get what you're saying. So the trades, right? Going from New Orleans to LA, right? That wasn't like no team issue. Going from LA to Houston, that wasn't like a... Like, they traded me. That's a whole nother situation of how it was like presented. So that was... The only time I got traded, right, not knowing, was from Houston to OKC. You know what I'm saying? Like, OKC to Phoenix was worked out with them. They was helping me get somewhere that was closer to home. Rubbing guys the wrong way or whatnot, like I said, if that happens or has happened or whatnot, what you learn too in playing in this league a long time is a lot of guys out here

• 54:53Speaker 02

  would be private friends, but public, talking crazy, right? I'm telling you, and I know this for a fact. A lot of these guys who go out here saying this, saying that, they also hitting you on the other end saying, "Yo, can you help me do this? Yo, I'd be a great vet on your team." You know what I mean? So, you know, even after my trade went through to Houston, I had a conversation with Ballmer. You know what I mean? Like, all this stuff is real. Like, as men, as humans, you gotta be able to have those conversations. And I also had a job too as a union president for eight years, which that came with a lot of shit with it, right? With a lot of guys who... Didn't like the way this was done, didn't like the way that was done.

• 55:35Speaker 02

  There's some people who'll go out there and talk crazy on my name or something like that because of how things was handled. When you in a leadership position, right, and this is, this is real talk and you guys have been in it too. Sometimes you gotta do things and you can't worry about being liked. Right? Because you gotta actually like make real decisions. Like sometimes y'all know when they talk about like coaches, right? Or they got assistant coaches, right? And everybody who can say, oh, I would've did it like this. Or I should've did this. You know what I mean? I've been in a situation where I've had to with the executive committee. Andre Godala, man, that's, that's one of my dogs right there. And even though we battled against each other for a long time, Golden State, when I was in Houston and LA,

• 56:19Speaker 02

  we done been in a lot of crazy conversations for the betterment of the players in the league that ain't always going the way the guys particularly wanted to go. You know what I'm saying? Like that bubble, if y'all knew how many guys was calling saying, what the hell you doing? Why we going down there and playing? But you learn to live with it.

• 56:37Fred Taylor?

  Correct. You speak about leadership and as I'm sitting here listening to you and RC's asking, you know, questions. He does do a ton of research, that's why, you know, he, he just won an Emmy. And that's why he's great at what he does.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Nah, for real, dawg, because that's dope to know all that. Like I, I pay attention, I'm listening.

• 56:55Fred Taylor?

  And the, the beautiful thing about the pivot in this platform is, especially with our guests, they have an opportunity to say it in their words, you know, and let people hear it directly from the horse's mouth. But I'm, I'm listening to you and I, I love how you carry yourself and how you're attentive. You move with a sense of urgency, how you like to communicate. You get on the phone and call like a man should call.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:20Fred Taylor?

  Uh, and with that, do you see yourself getting into coaching or GM? Because that's what you sound like. Sound like you go to coach.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Ownership, yeah.

• 57:28Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, some ownership, coaching, GMs, um, any of that stuff in the near future or after you're done?

• 57:34Speaker 02

  Man, definitely, uh, love to be in ownership. One of my old teammates called me this morning to ask me, uh, questions about how they can be better in the playoffs going forward. You know what I mean? Like real talk, like I, I played long enough now that a lot of my former teammates is coaches and stuff. You know what I mean? You know, we lost to Dallas in the second round. Dud was my teammate. When I played for the Clippers, he called me during their first round, asking me how they could beat a team that they was about to play. Then, "Fuck around, played us. In the second round, beat us." You know what I mean? So like, I love this game, man. And one thing I can say, and I say it here in...

• 58:15Speaker 00

  Blowing ad budget on metrics that look great, till the CFO sees them, that's bull spend. And marketers are calling it out in Dashboard Confessions.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  I remember telling my boss, "It'll be good for the brand," when leads were slow. Yeah, it wasn't.

• 58:32Speaker 00

  Cut the bull spend. LinkedIn lets you target by company, job title, and more. Advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a $250 credit. Go to LinkedIn.com/campaign. Terms and conditions apply.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  Don't nobody know this game better than me. That's real. Yep. That's real. Like, the ins and outs and nuances of this game. I wake up in the morning, my kids know I'm watching Tay, I'm watching film, I'm thinking strategy. You might be better at something than me, but you not gonna know this game better than me. Because I'm invested. I love it from every aspect of it, too. Right? The grassroots level. Right? AAU, you know? I got... You got AAU team. Yeah, I got my AAU team. I got 12 kids that play in the NBA that came through my AAU program. I do an elite camp, right? Every summer, for years and years. The very first year I had camp, Steph Curry was a camper, and so was Eric Bledsoe. And it's fun for me because I get a chance to see them guys grow.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I compete against them all day long. You know what I mean? But I know them know them from when they young, right? So like, De'Aaron Fox had came to camp, Dennis Smith, all these guys, man. I get a chance to play with these guys when they younger. But coaching, I don't want to travel like that. Straight up, because I've been gone so long for my kids. But... I coached my AAU team. I be with them. That's fun because they actually listen. Those NBA guys don't listen too good, but I gotta stay around the game.

• 1:00:01Fred Taylor?

  We didn't get into a lot of your business endeavors, but I see that you do a lot. You the first African American in North Carolina to own a Chevron?

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, my grandfather was.

• 1:00:11Fred Taylor?

  Oh, your grandfather?

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, my grandfather had the first black owned service station in North Carolina. So, since I was a kid. He just hustled, he just hustled people at the pumps. That's why my granddad, yeah. But he owned it.

• 1:00:23Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  And so what's crazy is the phone number to my granddad's service station was 7232232, right? And when you answered the phone, you said Joan Chevron. That's what you said. You said Joan Chevron. So, it's crazy. When we think about ownership these days, we think about other people doing the work. But back then, owning it meant you did the work.

• 1:00:42Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  Right? On my way to school this morning with my kids, I made my son get out and pump the gas, right? And I just thought about childhood, just having to check the oil, rotating tires and all that. That was, that was my childhood.

• 1:00:56Ryan Clark?

  First off, thank you to General Emissions, Studio City. They closed down for you. Like, we was like, we needed a spot. We was like, hey, Chris Paul will come in. They was like, okay, we cool. You know, you mentioned leadership and it's difficult to talk about leadership and where we are now as a black man, as we've spoken about, without some of the social justice things you've been a part of. And we could take it back. You know, you mentioned the bubble, how integral you were in getting that all set up. But also, there was a work stoppage for a few days after the Jacob Blake incident. You know, on this show, we joke about it, but people cry a lot, right? Right now, Freddie's the softest because he cried last. Like, that's the way it works.

• 1:01:37Ryan Clark?

  You cry last, you the softest person on the show until somebody else cries, you know? And so. You had tears in your eyes when you talked about the way y'all came together, the things you guys had to deal with, but also how difficult it was. Being a man in a leadership position in the NBA, but most of all, a leadership position in your home. Why have you always been willing to not only put your thoughts out, but your face in front of those things and stand up for people who lack the voice that you have?

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Everybody has their strong suits, right? Everybody not always able to articulate their thoughts. And over time, I've been able to do that and to be able to like speak freely from my heart or whatnot on how I feel in a situation. So with our executive committee that we had at the union, it's different guys who can do their part. But with this certain thing, I was so invested in that bubble and putting all the different details in it that when the situation happened with Jacob Blake, it's so much that went down the night before. And me and Andre Iguodala meeting with two teams who was talking about not playing to when it happened, everybody else looking like, who gonna do something, right? Just like with your family, right? If you at your house with your family and somebody break in, right? Daddy.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  Yep. What you gonna do? What you gonna do? And so I was on the bus headed to our game against the Rockets. And Shay Gildes Alexander, who like my brother, I talk to him about every day. Shay turned around on the bus and he said, see, you see what the Bucks did? And I was like, no, what happened? He was like, they not playing. So I immediately look at my phone and then boom, my phone start ringing. It's Damian Lillard calling. Then it's LeBron calling. Then Adam Silver called me, right? Like back to back to back. Cause everybody, you know, somebody gotta do something. You can't just answer and be like, oh, nothing. You know what I'm saying? I had to call this lady, her last name Flot, who had set up the whole bubble and I asked her to put a whole bunch of chairs in a conference room.

• 1:03:41Speaker 02

  Right? Because now COVID is still going on and they don't want to let us get together. And I said, to hell with that, we need to get together and talk. It was a conversation with Adam to let him know that we weren't gonna play the games that night. And so now we got a chance to get everybody in a conference room, right? And have some real conversations and who else was gonna do it, right? And I was actually a little bit nervous, just a little bit, right? Going into this, because I went in the middle of the room in front of all these players, many of who don't like me. Right, right, well, I don't give a damn. You know what I mean? Because at the same time, it's a position of service. You know what I mean? Like, we got a nice CBA deal. We got all this different type of stuff going on.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  And I could care less what they talking about, right? A job's gotta be done. And so, I got calls from the coaches. The coaches said they want to come into the meeting. So now, I gotta what? What I gotta decide? Whether or not the coaches could go. Exactly. Thought about it. I talked to Doc, and I talked to, um, can't think of the other coach I talked to. And I was like, yeah. They was like, we a part of your family too. We want to be in there. Coaches come in. I get a call. Guess who else said they wanted to come in? The referees, right? And I get it. Like, everybody wants to be a part of it, but everybody gonna be like, oh, he ain't want to rep. Well, I said no to that because I wanted players to be able to talk freely. Right? And so, we get into that meeting. We start the meeting. Guys start talking.

• 1:05:09Speaker 02

  Tell you the truth, couple of coaches said some real stuff, man. John Lucas, he was passionate, man. He talked. Y'all know Luke? Yep. Luke, man, is a real OG. He talked in there and was passionate about it. He seen the league from years ago to what it is now. He said some real stuff. So did Armon Hill, Money. He said some real stuff. Doc said some real stuff. Then you got some players in the back right after that that said, man, get the coaches out of here.

• 1:05:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right? They said, get the coaches out of here. Even though the coaches had told us some, some real stuff. You know what I mean? So it was, it was a lot going on in there, man. But then, we talked as players and all this stuff. And it was a lot for guys to handle, deal with. We broke after that day, came back the next day, and we made a decision. But it goes back to, who gonna do it? Who gonna do it? Somebody gotta do it, and everybody ain't gonna like it, but it is what it is.

• 1:06:05Ryan Clark?

  I was on an executive committee for years. My team, the Pittsburgh Steelers, were the only team to vote no on the CBA. So imagine being the rep of the team that says no.

• 1:06:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:06:17Ryan Clark?

  And you've been a rep on the team. You've been on the executive board. You've been the president. Like, you gotta ride with your folks. And when we left that room, we, we left it that way, and there was no bending on it. And we understood that the CBA was gonna pass, but that's what leadership is. And you've done that your entire career. Our last question that we like to give our guests the floor is to ask them. The name of the show is The Pivot. Is what has been their biggest pivot in life? What has been that moment that helped shape Chris Paul? What is that moment that changed your life, whether good or bad, that you'll never forget? And being that you're an author now, and your book 61 comes out on June 20th,

• 1:07:00Ryan Clark?

  we know some of the events that have gone on in your life, but the floor is yours just to say and talk about something that helped make you. Dang, that's a deep question. That's against everybody.

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's tough because, I mean, I've been there for the birth of both of my kids. My wife is unreal. She the strongest. She everything to our family. I'm thinking about like the death of my grandfather, you know, and how that just seems prevalent. Because even now, 20 years later, I still, I just work, right? Just do the work. My wife out of town, we're talking about homegirls, my kids. We left the house this morning, like 7:30 to take them to school. But I was up in the gym at 5:15. You know what I mean? Like, working out. And I just think about doing the work. I don't know. And people, some people may say, "Why?" or whatnot,

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  but I just think about, like, even when I was growing up, and it might be a party or something like that going on, and some people go and they say, "Why you ain't going?" I always say, like, I want to enjoy things maybe later in life, right? Because doing the work, it's just always been about that. And so, I don't know. Probably as I get older, the word gratitude just means more and more to me. Just appreciate my family. And then I'll tell you this, this is crazy that you said that, is that I've always been a people pleaser, right? Always, just always like a people pleaser. And that's like, I've always had a hard time saying no, right? To this or that. You'll show up here, "All right, I got you." This, that, and the other.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  But the biggest thing I've been trying to work on is showing up for the people who show up for me. Right, like I let people do me dirty for so long. Talk crazy about me, still show up for them, still do that. But it's just, just recently, I had a conversation with my wife. It's like, I'm done. I'm done with that. And so, probably just, the pivot is investing more time in those who, uh, who deserve it.

• 1:09:03Channing Crowder?

  And I gotta ask, man, cuz you talk about leadership, decision making. Bro, you lead so many people in so many great ways. I call people ecosystems. Like, we have so much around you, it's almost like you a damn son and planets are going around you. And you're like, seeing that and hearing you talk and doing research. But one decision you made that just blew my mind was when you, Dwyane Wade and LeBron James.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  On that banana boat.

• 1:09:26Channing Crowder?

  Climbed y'all's big, black asses on a tube and let a boat drag you around the damn ocean.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  Listen, man, first and foremost, who, who, Mello wasn't on it.

• 1:09:37Channing Crowder?

  No.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Mello wasn't on the boat. Yeah, Gav was on it. You know what? That was, I mean, you knew paparazzi existed, but in the Bahamas? Like, we was like, six hours out on a boat in the Bahamas on vacation, right? And Mello, if Mello would've been on time, Mello showed up late to the boat. That's why he wasn't, wasn't, wasn't on that banana boat. He was late getting to the boat, man, but that's crazy what that turned into.

• 1:10:05Channing Crowder?

  No, no, no, I knew what it turned into and it's bullshit. But Wade climbed up and your ass climbed right behind him.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:10:14Channing Crowder?

  And LeBron climbed behind your ass.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  No, listen here, that is not how it go. Right here, you know him and his homie done rode a horse together. He already know it.

• 1:10:24Channing Crowder?

  You saw the picture?

• 1:10:28Ryan Clark?

  But man, bro, we appreciate you. This was something we were looking forward to. Tell, I'ma text CJ, tell him thank you.

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  Man, I appreciate y'all for real.

• 1:10:35Ryan Clark?

  Working, doing, man.

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:10:36Ryan Clark?

  It's been, uh, it's dope. We all love basketball, can't none of us play. You know what I'm saying? But to get an opportunity to talk to you where the man is greater than the player and the player is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, that's what our show is about.

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  What they all say, we all fall short. I ain't perfect, by no means, man. Y'all know, like, always a work in progress, man. But I appreciate coming to talk and learn and hear from you guys too, man, cuz. I ain't gonna keep talking, I know we gotta end, but one of the biggest things I learned is I got my homies that I grew up with, right? Sure y'all do too. I got a group chat called the fellas group chat. All my homies that I grew up with, I'm actually taking them on a trip next week, right? Ain't nothing like that, but my brother who I love to death, there's certain things that I've been through in life that he'll just never understand. That only y'all can understand, which is why when you guys give players and stuff like that a voice to come talk, like some of my relationships, me, Bron Mello and D Wade,

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  why we were so close for so long is it's only certain things that we know about. Your closest friend don't know what it's like getting to that hotel at a certain time at night and having all these people right here, so I appreciate y'all for having this platform.

• 1:11:48Ryan Clark?

  Man, thank you, brother.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 1:11:49Ryan Clark?

  Appreciate you, my boy.

• 1:11:50Speaker 02

  Without.

• 1:11:51Ryan Clark?

  Hey, I was talking to Shannon before, I told her when I met you, I told her when I met you, you were all in, I was like, man, shoot, Chris is a little bit taller than me, I was like, I could probably play in the league, I was like, if I had great court vision and I had excellent handles and I could really shoot, and he's like, so if you can play basketball?

• 1:12:09Channing Crowder?

  He can play basketball.

• 1:12:10Speaker 06

  He can do all that.