On July 4th, Are You A Thrill- Or Chill-Seeker?

Independence Day is approaching! Imagine in a few days, someone has procured illegal fireworks from a couple of states over. Are you: A) first in line to light them B) content to watch while others set them off C) going to find a fire extinguisher — just in case — while loudly condemning the activity? Ken Carter https://www.drkencarter.com/, a psychologist at Oxford College of Emory University, says everyone has a different level of sensation-seeking. This episode, we get into the factors at play, like people's brain chemistry, when deciding whether or not to do an activity, like setting off fireworks. Plus, he and Emily https://www.npr.org/people/767284140/emily-kwong reveal their scores to his forty-point scale. Ken's 40-point sensation seeking survey can be found in his book, Buzz! https://www.cambridge.org/us/universitypress/subjects/psychology/personality-psychology-and-individual-differences/buzz-inside-minds-thrill-seekers-daredevils-and-adrenaline-junkies?format=PB. Interested in more psychology episodes? Email us your question at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Listen to every episode of Short Wave sponsor-free and support our work at NPR by signing up for Short Wave+ at plus.npr.org/shortwave http://plus.npr.org/shortwave. See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:19Emily Kwong?

  You're listening to Short Wave from NPR.

• 0:25Emily Kwong?

  As a kid, on the Fourth of July, Ken Carter's family would always get together, have a picnic and light fireworks. His brother loved that part. Ken, not so much.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  I remember sort of thinking about like, what I would do if something went wrong, like where the emergency room was going to be, hoping I wasn't going to blow my hand up, that kind of stuff. I was a very cautious kid.

• 0:49Emily Kwong?

  Ken is a clinical psychologist at Oxford College of Emory University, where he studies sensation seekers, people who may enjoy risk, thrill or a new sensation. The types who, on the Fourth of July-

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Have probably driven across state lines to buy fireworks that might not be legal in your current state, looking for the largest explosions, the most beautiful colors, and have invited the neighborhood people over to their house to witness that.

• 1:18Emily Kwong?

  Ken, by comparison, is a self-described chill seeker. The types of people who-

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Are looking at the fireworks, wondering whether or not those are legal in the state and being prepared. The kind of people who might bring something to put out the fire.

• 1:35Emily Kwong?

  Most people, Ken says, are probably in the middle.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Who are going to enjoy it, but may be nervous every now and then.

• 1:41Emily Kwong?

  And this spectrum of personality on display as fireworks burst overhead has always intrigued him.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  I've always been amazed how two people can have the same experience, but kind of have a different emotional reaction from it.

• 1:55Emily Kwong?

  As a psychologist, Ken uses a 40-point scale to measure someone's sensation-seeking behavior. And he has met people who score 38, even 40.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  I'm actually at an eight out of 40.

• 2:07Emily Kwong?

  Oh, that's quite low.

• 2:10Speaker 02

  It is quite low.

• 2:12Emily Kwong?

  So today on the show, the psychology and brain chemistry of why some people like to light illegal Roman candles on the Fourth of July, while others watch from a distance with a fire extinguisher in hand. Plus, how I score on Ken's sensation-seeking survey. I'm Emily Kwong, and you're listening to Short Wave, the science podcast from NPR.

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• 4:02Emily Kwong?

  All right, Ken, let us dig deeper into the brain chemistry of what makes some people want to seek out bottle rockets and others keep a far distance from fireworks. What decides this?

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, there are lots of things that really are part of this. And the thing I like to focus on a lot are two Chemicals that we have in our body. One is called cortisol. It's a stress hormone. Really helps organize your body's systems to handle that fight, flee or freeze response. And so we know that when these highly chaotic things are happening, that for average and low sensation seekers, it produces a lot of cortisol in their body and they're trying to react to that cortisol. High sensation seekers, on the other hand, don't tend to produce that much cortisol when they're in those highly chaotic experiences. So when they're seeing those fireworks, they actually produce higher amounts of another chemical called dopamine,

• 5:01Speaker 02

  which is a neurotransmitter or a chemical messenger that's involved in pleasure. So when these high sensation seekers are seeing these fireworks that are illegal from five states away and they're blowing up, they're experiencing a lot of pleasure, but not that much stress. And that's why two people can have the same experience, but really their bodies are reacting in a very different way.

• 5:24Emily Kwong?

  What decides that, the difference among people?

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's some genetics involved in it for sure. The environment plays a piece as well. There's some evidence that high sensation seekers had some sort of unpredictable chaotic experiences in general when they were younger. But a lot of it tends to be genetic is really what's, that's why you see a lot of thrill seekers that can sort of run in families.

• 5:50Emily Kwong?

  Oh, that's really interesting. What about experiences that happen in adulthood? I'm thinking about people for whom maybe they didn't have an issue with fireworks before, but then perhaps they were deployed or survived a war and fireworks for them are now a trauma reminder.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so that's something a little bit different. So what I study is sensation seeking as a personality trait, which can change a little bit over time. But there are some things that might cause people to be, to sort of seek that chaos a little bit later, which might include some trauma kinds of experiences. And so what I look at is whether or not this is the kind of thing that's sort of always been like this or did something happen that sort of may have pivoted them towards sort of seeking chaotic experiences. We also know that a lot of those high sensation seekers are create like they pick careers where there're going to be a lot of chaos and there's going to be a good amount of high sensation seeking

• 6:46Speaker 02

  involved in that, whether it's firefighters or first responders or military. A lot of high sensation seekers are drawn to those careers because of their superpower of being able to be calm in those chaotic experiences.

• 7:00Emily Kwong?

  Okay, so just to clarify, thrill seeking as a personality trait is not a you are or you aren't. It's more of a spectrum.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the original researcher that really looked at this was someone named Zuckerman. And I've done some modifications to his brief sensation seeking survey. And there's four different pieces to it. So you actually might be a sensation seeker, but not realize it because you may actually score high in one level, but a little bit lower in another level.

• 7:30Emily Kwong?

  What are the the four categories you're looking at in the survey?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the four categories, number one is called thrill and adventure seeking, like driving fast or dangerous kinds of things that are really involved sort of body sensations. Another category is called experience seeking. This is sort of sensations of the mind and of the senses. These are people who like adventure travel or eating strange foods, for example. The first two tell me the kinds of things you might choose. The last two components tell me how much trouble you might get yourself into by trying to seek those things. One's called disinhibition. This is your ability to sort of look before you leap. Those that score low, always sort of look and sort of do things carefully.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Those that score high, just do stuff and figure out the consequences later. The last one's called boredom susceptibility. This has to do with how quickly you get bored and how irritated you get when you get bored.

• 8:29Emily Kwong?

  Yeah, so you wrote an entire book about thrill seeking called Buzz, Inside the Minds of Thrill Seekers, Daredevils, and Adrenaline Junkies. You have the survey in there.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:40Emily Kwong?

  The whole team took it on Shorewave.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 8:43Emily Kwong?

  You scored an eight.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  I did. I'm very proud of those eight points. I mean, I earned every one. Yeah.

• 8:51Emily Kwong?

  Uh, my score was thirty two and I can tell you that I'm laid up in bed right now with a thrown out back because I decided to go sprinting in ninety degree heat on Wednesday. And when I was out there, I was like, this is fun.

• 9:10Emily Kwong?

  And then later I came inside and I was like, was that a good idea? And then my back hurt the following day and then I was like, that's probably fine. No stress, no stress response occurred. And my husband was like, you need to lie down like you're, you have injured yourself. So that's why I am recording this from my bed because yeah, I really wasn't stressed, even though other people would have been very stressed in that situation.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. A lot of high sensation seekers will say that we will actually bounce back quicker when they do have an injury and they're really ready to do it again. Yeah, there, there, there is a guy that actually there are many high sensation seekers are actually underrepresented in emergency room situations because they can actually avoid getting injured, but when they do get injured, they bounce back relatively quickly.

• 9:56Emily Kwong?

  And you said you've met people who are forty.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, I've met thirty eights, forties, thirty two, still pretty, pretty high. Yeah. But a lot of people will have what I call anchors in their life who were are people who will pull them back from doing things that are too dangerous. They could be family, friends, kids, or even certain jobs where you think about whether or not you might want to get injured, you might get injured and that sort of keeps them anchored a little bit more.

• 10:23Emily Kwong?

  Yeah, yeah, very important. The, the balance seems very important of, of, of anchors and, and people who are like, well, let's have a little adventure.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so too. To me, we need, we need high sensation seekers. We need these thrill seekers out there. These are the people that keep us protected. These are the people who sort of push the boundaries. They eat foods that, you know, they're going to taste them for the very first time and take a big bite out of them and they end up having these really amazing experiences. And I think there are things we can all learn from these high sensations. Like even if you're not one, you can learn some really great things from them, like how, you know, I, I used to be a person who wouldn't try new foods, but now I know like, you know, the worst thing that can happen is that you don't like it.

• 11:06Emily Kwong?

  Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  But being disgusted isn't the worst thing.

• 11:09Emily Kwong?

  Yeah. Going back to the science, aside from kind of self-reported survey results, how else do psychologists like yourself study such a personality trait?

• 11:19Speaker 02

  There was a study done in the Netherlands where they looked at how high sensation seeking might impact how a person drives. They actually had people who were following a pace car in front of them, and they were hooked up to some physiological devices to measure their heart rate and their sort of stress response. And also, the distance they followed the car in front of them. And the low sensation seekers, as you can imagine, followed that car kind of far back and were pretty stressed out when they were doing it. The high sensation seekers followed really closely behind, and their stress response was relatively low. So this is why, if you're in a car with a high sensation seeker who's changing lanes and moving through

• 12:03Speaker 02

  traffic, and you're wondering, and you're really stressed out, if you're a low sensation seeker, it's important to remember that they're not really stressed at all. And that if your friend that's in the driver is in the companion seat says they're stressed, they might be.

• 12:19Emily Kwong?

  That's good advice. Listen to your friends while driving. Okay, well, Ken, since your book came out in 2019, have you learned anything new about sensation seeking?

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think what I've been focusing on a lot since the book is how those people who aren't high sensation seekers, what we can learn from those high sensation seekers. We think about these high sensation seekers really being adrenaline junkies, but they're kind of not. And one of the things they've told me is that adrenaline is a really bad drug. Will Gadd was the very first person to climb up Niagara Falls when it was frozen, and he's told me that adrenaline is a terrible drug. If he was just after adrenaline, he would just run back and forth in traffic. But he told me the reason why he's doing it is for the experience, like what it's going to feel like to do it, and you need to be able to focus

• 13:13Speaker 02

  really well. And so the fact that he has lower levels of cortisol because he's a high sensation seeker lets him to be able to focus and do that really well. And there's some evidence that that emotional regulation that you garner to be able to do those complicated things can last even after the event. A lot of high sensation seekers I talked to say they'll do things like, you know, wingsuit flying or bungee jumping, and it gives them clarity, and they'll do that before they make a big decision, and that clear sense of mind can last for weeks after those events.

• 13:48Emily Kwong?

  So as you prepare for 4th of July, which is in a few days,

• 13:54Emily Kwong?

  what advice do you have for folks who perhaps are not so into fireworks? What do you think people should do?

• 14:00Speaker 02

  I always tell people to lean into your awe. Find the thing that feels awesome for you and do that unapologetically, as long as it's, you know, safe and not going to hurt anybody.

• 14:13Emily Kwong?

  That is Ken Carter, clinical psychologist at Emory University. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 14:24Emily Kwong?

  Have a safe, happy holiday, short waivers, whatever you decide to do. This episode was produced by Burley McCoy. It was edited and fact checked by our showrunner, Rebecca Ramirez. The audio engineer was Robert Rodriguez. Beth Donovan is our senior director and Colin Campbell is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy. I'm Emily Kwong. Thank you for listening to Short Wave from NPR.

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