#816: Nsima Inyang, Mutant and Movement Coach — True Athleticism at Any Age, Microdosing Movement, “Rope Flow” as a Key Unlock, Why Sleds and Sandbags Matter, and Much More

Nsima Inyang (@nsimainyang https://www.youtube.com/nsimaInyang) is a strength athlete, movement coach, and co-host of Mark Bell’s Power Project https://www.youtube.com/@MarkBellsPowerProject, one of the top fitness podcasts in the world. He is also one of the most freakishly athletic humans I’ve ever met. He’s a black belt in Brazilian jiu-jitsu, a professional natural bodybuilder (placed top five in the world), and an elite-level powerlifter (750-plus-pound deadlift, etc.)—but what sets him apart is how he blends all those worlds with unconventional training tools like kettlebells, maces, sandbags, and rope flow. Nsima is also the founder of The Stronger Human https://www.skool.com/thestrongerhuman/about, a growing online community focused on strength, movement, and resilience. This episode is brought to you by: Pique https://piquelife.com/tim premium pu’er tea crystals: https://piquelife.com/tim (20% off—valid for the lifetime of your subscription—plus a free Starter Kit, which includes a rechargeable frother and glass beaker) Momentous https://livemomentous.com/tim high-quality supplements: https://livemomentous.com/tim (code TIM for up to 35% off) Eight Sleep Pod Cover 5 https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/ sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating: EightSleep.com/Tim https://www.eightsleep.com/tim/ (use code TIM to get $350 off your very own Pod 5 Ultra.) * Watch the interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/mLGqrlxofXA Nsima's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/nsimaInyang The Stronger Human: https://www.skool.com/thestrongerhuman/about The Stronger Human Store: https://thestrongerhuman.store/ * Timestamps: [00:00:00] Start. [00:07:57] Defining powerlifting and Nsima’s elite totals. [00:10:30] Nsima’s first video that grabbed my attention. [00:11:26] Serge Gracovetsky and The Spinal Engine. [00:12:18] How Nsima avoids the distinctive plane-bound movement of many bodybuilders. [00:16:45] My tango struggles and coping with the “waist of a chicken.” [00:18:12] Intro to rope flow and David Weck. [00:20:15] Rope flow benefits, mechanics, and efficacy as an internal martial art. [00:35:21] Minimum effective dose rope flow. [00:37:37] Rope flow equipment and costs. [00:39:31] Bill Maeda and movement as daily practice. [00:42:38] How my three years of chronic pain and movement limitations might have been solved by breathing properly. [00:48:53] Lower body training: unilateral before bilateral, sandbags vs. barbells. [00:52:29] Box squats and safety: managing compression sensitivity and range of motion. [00:58:37] Set rep programming for non-elite powerlifters. [01:05:12] Eschew the monotonous. Embrace the exercise that inspires you. [01:09:39] Caution: don’t train your way into adopting a sub-optimal gait. [01:12:04] Sumo deadlifting technique, Colton Engelbrecht, and Nsima’s meaty hands. [01:20:49] Ed Coan: the greatest powerlifter and his anatomical advantages. [01:24:31] Staggered stance deadlifts: alternative approach relating to natural movement patterns. [01:26:08] Bang-for-buck exercises: kettlebell swings and sandbag training benefits. [01:29:54] Cossack squats and adductor training: addressing weak links in movement. [01:33:27] Ankle mobility, Ben Patrick, and ATG methods. [01:38:18] How regression solved Nsima’s chronic knee injury pain. [01:40:19] “Scale it down” philosophy: the importance of ego-free progression. [01:47:37] Microdosing movement: small daily doses vs. intensive sessions. [01:52:12] Placing equipment strategically for daily use. [01:58:41] Calisthenics and body weight strength: why barbells don’t equal body control. [02:05:27] Rock climbing inspiration: 70-year-olds outperforming younger athletes. [02:08:20] Non-negotiable lifts: sled work as the foundation movement. [02:21:42] Kelly Starrett and soft tissue work fundamentals. [02:26:28] Self-massage tools and techniques: from Gua Sha to Body Lever to tennis balls. [02:33:38] Evidence-based fitness limitations: not waiting for papers to validate effective practices. [02:38:13] Nightly protocols, acupressure, and Andrii Bondarenko. [02:45:17] Learning to heal yourself: developing internal reference points for soft tissue work. [02:46:15] Back buddies and medicine balls. [02:49:11] Nordic curls challenge: beating Tyreek Hill’s record through systematic progression. [02:55:26] Bone density fundamentals: compression, tension, impact, and rotation stressors. [02:58:02] Jumping and rebounding: why we stop jumping and how to regress back to it. [03:06:02] What Nsima hopes to convey to his audience online and where he can be found. [03:07:53] Gratitude: how this podcast influenced Nsima’s learning journey from age 20. [03:09:00] Micro-progressions, sustainable movement practice, and parting thoughts. * For show notes and past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. For deals from sponsors of The Tim Ferriss Show https://tim.blog/podcast, please visit tim.blog/podcast-sponsors https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts https://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books https://tim.blog/books. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, hello, hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to interview and deconstruct world-class performers from all different domains: entertainment, military, sports, business, investing. We've done 800 of these conversations, and everyone is different. Everyone is intended to be tactical for you, the listener, to give you things that you can take away and apply. And this episode is dense. We have a lot that you can apply. I just finished a very short 10-minute workout. We might call it "microdosing movement," that's going to come up in this episode, designed by none other than today's guest,

• 0:40Tim Ferriss?

  and it is amazing. It is so fantastic. You get so much from so little. And who is today's guest? Nsima Inyang. That is Nigerian, folks, although he's American, of course, but his background is Nigerian, and that is the spelling that I will emphasize, because you are going to want to check this guy out everywhere you can. Nsima, N-S-I-M-A, and then last name, I-N-Y-A-N-G. And Nsima is a strength athlete, but he's a lot more than that. He's a movement coach and co-host of Mark Bell's Power Project. Hello, Mark Bell. Been a while. Lovely to hear your name, and to see your name, and to read your name. And that has

• 1:22Tim Ferriss?

  become one of the top fitness podcasts in the world for very good reasons. Nsima himself is also one of the most freakishly athletic humans I have ever met in my life, and that is saying a lot. I have met a lot of mutants, but what he's done is incredible. And let me give you an example. He's a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He's been to Masters World Championships multiple times, won twice at brown belt, a professional natural bodybuilder. He placed top 5 in the world, and an elite-level powerlifter, which includes things like 750-plus-pound deadlifts. But what really sets him apart is how he blends these things together, these different worlds, with unconventional training tools, including

• 2:05Tim Ferriss?

  things like rope flow, which is actually how I was introduced to him, and my Goal with inviting him to this podcast was to help myself to be pain free and to also really regain my athletic footing. I'm not just interested in having big arms or a six pack. I don't really care that much about those things. I want to be an athlete. I want to be able to move, not just now, but for decades and decades and decades. And after 20 years or so of lifting and martial arts, and Sima has developed a very unique approach to helping people build muscle, move better, and stay pain free for life. He is the founder of The Stronger Human, a growing online community focused on strength, movement, and resilience. With hundreds of thousands of people following his YouTube content, which I highly, highly

• 2:50Tim Ferriss?

  recommend, his mission is simple: help people feel powerful in their bodies again without relying solely on machines, cookie cutter workouts, or the fitness industry's outdated rules. And he does turn a lot upside down in this conversation, and there are a lot of recommendations. We have links to everything, of course. So you can find the Stronger Human community, which I am going to be a part of, at skool.com, that's S-K-O-O-L dot com slash thestrongerhuman. You can find all of the various products and so on that we're referred to in this conversation at thestrongerhuman.store. And certainly on YouTube, Instagram,

• 3:28Tim Ferriss?

  so on, you can find him at nsimayang, but that is spelled, once again, N-S-I-M-A-I-N-Y-A-N-G. And one last thing, if you want visuals of all the exercises and so on that we discuss in this conversation, you can find them as B-roll. It's been added to this interview at youtube.com/timfaris. Okay, that's quite an intro. I'm going to leave it at that. This is very dense. I am using what I learned. I am benefiting from what I learned from NSIMA. So just a few words from the people who make this podcast possible, and then we'll get right into the meat and potatoes. Please enjoy. This episode is brought to you by Peak. That's P-I-Q-U-E. I have had so much tea in my life.

• 4:13Tim Ferriss?

  I've been to China. I've lived in China, in Japan. I've done tea tours. I drink a lot of tea. I've been drinking fermented Pu'er tea specifically, pretty much every day for years now. The problem with good Pu'er is that it's hard to source. It's hard to find real Pu'er that hasn't been exposed to pesticides and other nasties, which is super common. That's why Peak's fermented Pu'er tea crystals have become my daily go-to. It's so simple. They have so many benefits that I'm going to get into. And I first learned about them through my friends, Dr. Peter Attia and Kevin Rose. Peak Crystals are cold extracted using only wild harvested leaves from 250-year-old tea trees. I often kick-start my mornings with their Pu'er green tea,

• 4:58Tim Ferriss?

  their Pu'er black tea, and I alternate between the two. The rich, earthy flavor of the black specifically is amazing. It's very, very, it's like a delicious barnyard. Very peaty, if you like whiskey and stuff like that. They triple toxin screen all of their products for heavy metals, pesticides, and toxic mold contaminants commonly found in tea. There's also zero prep or brewing required as the crystals dissolve in seconds. So you can just drop it into your hot tea, or I also make iced tea, and that saves a ton of time and hassle. So for you, my dear listeners, Peak is offering 20% off, valid for the lifetime of your subscription, plus a free starter kit, which includes a rechargeable frother and a glass beaker. This all comes with their 90-day satisfaction guarantee,

• 5:43Tim Ferriss?

  so it's risk-free. I suggest check it out. I've been using Peak for years. I just had a bunch of Peak stuff this morning. Go to peaklife.com/tim to learn more. That's P-I-Q-U-E-L-I-F-E, peaklife.com/tim. Peaklife.com/tim. The discount is automatically applied at checkout. Sleep is the key to it all. It is the foundation. Many of you heard me talk about how today's sponsor, Eight Sleep, has improved my sleep with its Pod cover. Well, they just launched their latest product, the Pod 5. I cannot wait to try it out, and here's why. The Pod 5 introduces Eight Sleep's latest product, the Blanket, which uses the same technology as the Pod's cover to extend temperature regulation across

• 6:27Tim Ferriss?

  the entire body. So if you're too hot, too cold, you can fix it. If you're a couple, and one of you is hot, one of you is cold, you can fix it as well. It all fits right over your existing mattress like a fitted sheet. On average, members report the Pod has helped them fall asleep 44% faster, 34% deeper sleep, and given them up to one added hour of sleep each night. Also, the Pod's snoring detection, my friend Albert might be interested in this, and automatic elevating platform have reduced user snoring by 45%. So it does a lot. You'll also get a personalized report each morning, allowing you to track your sleep stages, heart rate variability, respiratory rate, and more, all without having any devices strapped onto you. So head over to eightsleep.com/tim and use code

• 7:10Tim Ferriss?

  TIM to get $350 off of your very own Pod 5 Ultra. You can try it at home for 30 days and return if you don't like it. So why not? Give it a shot. Sleep is everything. Again, that's eightsleep.com/tim. You can spell it out, eightsleep.com/tim, for $350 off. Shipping is available to many countries worldwide. One more time, eightsleep.com/tim.

• 7:34Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 7:41Tim Ferriss?

  No, we're just seeing an appropriate time.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 7:57Tim Ferriss?

  And Siobhan, nice to see you. Thanks for being here in Austin. Yeah, thank you. And I thought we would start with a little setting of the table, defining of terms. What on earth is powerlifting? You are an elite level powerlifter. What does that mean? What is the sport of powerlifting? And what are your totals? And what does that even mean?

• 8:17Speaker 02

  So the sport of powerlifting is concentrated above the three big lifts, the squat, bench, and deadlift. The holy grail of traditional lifts. In a meet, you have three attempts at a squat, three attempts at a bench, three attempts at a deadlift, in that order. Ideally, you're aiming for a nine out of nine. There's geared powerlifting where you have suits, but that's not as popular nowadays. I did raw powerlifting. Mark Bell, who's the host of the Mark Bell's Power Project, he was a big geared lifter. And then he did some raw at the end of his career. For what I managed to get, I think I got eight out of nine at my last meet. I got a 622 squat, a 396 bench. I wasn't correct at 405, and I never got 405, and a 755 pound deadlift. So my total was 1758. Not on record, but what I've, my gym lifts for powerlifting, still never got the 405 bench.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  But I managed to squat 645 a little bit after that meet. And I believe I deadlifted 775 after that meet.

• 9:08Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So you lift?

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I lift. And I still like lifting, contrary to popular belief and some of the things that I've put out. People think I don't think lifting is good for you, and I don't like lifting. Lifting is good for you.

• 9:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. I was surprised how much jazzercise you do and how many celery sticks you ate at lunch. I'm kidding. All right, so you have some bona fides. And actually, I was joking earlier. It's not so much joking, reminiscing that the first time I went to Super Training Gym with Mark Bell, who's an old friend. I've known Mark for a long time. Amazing character.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:42Tim Ferriss?

  In Sacramento, I saw you doing deadlifts workout. And I was just like, what the hell is happening on there? For people who may have gone to a gym before, they maybe even have put on 45 pound plates. Like, what are we talking in terms of numbers of plates? What does it look like when you're deadlifting the, your current personal best?

• 10:03Speaker 02

  At that time, you know, I was probably deadlifting in the 700 type of realms. So working sets would be maybe five, six plates. So that's 495, 585 above for sets of triples, doubles, some singles here and there. It's a lot of weight, right? Not weight I'm working with right now, but it's a lot of weight you're working with when you're focused on powerlifting. You're focused on like moving as much weight as possible on a barbell. So, yeah, it's some load.

• 10:30Tim Ferriss?

  Now, the way that I found you was through a video on YouTube. You have an excellent channel and very thought provoking content. And that's what grabbed me. So what was the headline of this video?

• 10:47Speaker 02

  The lie of traditional training, why I moved on.

• 10:49Tim Ferriss?

  All right. Lie of traditional training, why I moved on. And I was like, well, that guy looks pretty jacked. I wish I had those abs and I wish I could tan as easily. But boy can dream. Let me at least find out what the lies are. And click through was actually sent to me by my friend, Kevin Rose.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:07Tim Ferriss?

  And I certainly owe him a debt of gratitude for that. And maybe you can describe for listeners, a video that grabbed my attention. And it was video of a man, I believe it was, with no arms and legs.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:24Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, what is this video?

• 11:26Speaker 02

  So Serge Krakowetski is the guy who wrote The Spinal Engine, which is a book that I referenced in that video. It's a video that he showed of a man that's moving through space with no arms and no legs. And when most people think about typical human locomotion, it's thought that the arms and legs are the driver's locomotion. You swing your arms, you swing your legs forward, you move forward through space. Well, this pretty much torso is rotating through space without arms and legs. And you can see the rotation.

• 11:53Tim Ferriss?

  And he's sort of quote unquote, walking, right? I mean, he's moving forward in space.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. But you see that natural figure eight rotation of the spine that's moving him through space. So in that book, The Spinal Engine and Serge's theory of locomotion is that the spine is the driver of movement and locomotion. The rotation of the spine helps swing the arms and swing the legs through space. And for efficient human movement, you want to maintain access to that spinal engine. And what I was getting at, at that video. Wasn't that we shouldn't train with barbells or we shouldn't train in a neutral spine, but with the focus of traditional lifting being in the sagittal plane, usually forward and backwards or within that one plane, we are always training the neutral spine and maintaining that neutral spine through everything we do. So when you're doing that all the time in the gym and there's also a lack of breathing,

• 12:43Speaker 02

  which we'll probably get into later, but you trained this system. When you want to potentially go and transfer it into something else, you might not have as much access to that spinal engine as you used to. Over time, that can potentially degrade if you actually, maybe you never really had that and it gets worse by training in the gym. And the examples I gave in that video is examples from sports that you see this type of training a lot in. It's powerlifting, bodybuilding, Olympic lifting.

• 13:12Tim Ferriss?

  You're talking about the sagittal plane.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  The sagittal plane.

• 13:13Tim Ferriss?

  Now, can you just help people visualize what that means? Sagittal, like let's just say you're standing in a very narrow hallway with walls on either side and you're bending forward, you can extend backwards.

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Divide your body in half here from the nose, right?

• 13:29Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so you've got a line going from your forehead down your nose, splitting your body in half.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  That is a sagittal plane.

• 13:34Tim Ferriss?

  Got it.

• 13:34Speaker 02

  So when we think of a squat, when we think of a deadlift, when we think of a forward lunge is also still in the sagittal plane, even though it's a unilateral movement. These are all done in a sagittal plane with a neutral spine. And these are most of the movements you think about doing a pull up, a push up. The frontal plane divides the body in halves from front and back. So we would imagine from the head to the toe on the side of the body, that would be something like a Cossack squat, lunge to the side, a lateral lunge. Those would be the frontal plane. And the transverse plane of movement would divide the body in half from our torso, our legs down, torso up. So that would have this rotation of the spine. Those would be those three planes, but then we can get into other ideas of rotation, which is the things you get into with rope, et cetera.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  But gym movements are primarily done when people are training in the sagittal plane with a neutral spine. There isn't much flexion or rotation of the spine. You're strengthening this neutral spine, which is good. But overdoing that can degrade the ways that you want to be able to move as a human being.

• 14:38Tim Ferriss?

  And the way that can show up, I mean, this is very personal for me and part of the reason it was very attention grabbing is, as we've discussed earlier today, if people want to get a good laugh, you can watch me trying rope flow and throwing around a pink kettlebell in a giant sombrero.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  I wish they made the pink kettlebell another color because I was like, man, like, this doesn't, yeah.

• 15:02Tim Ferriss?

  It was kind of perfect. It was kind of perfect. So if people want a good laugh, we'll link to that as well, our earlier movement practice. But the story that I shared with you is three years of chronic back pain and pretty localized to low back, who knows, I'm sure there's some referral happening, but by and large, lumbar, this sort of grand central station of musculature called the quadratus lumborum, the QL, and external obliques and all this stuff. I basically get locked and spasmed in the low back and that can be triggered in any number of ways. Now, on top of that, when I watched this video, it made me think back to when I was much younger and actually ran cross country.

• 15:46Tim Ferriss?

  And you have that contralateral movement. If you walk, it's like, okay, your left shoulder moves forward as your sort of right leg and I guess probably hip move forward at the same time, that contralateral movement. And to emphasize that, you had video, footage in your video showing what everyone has seen, which is someone who's done a lot of lifting, who's walking down the street and they have no contralateral movement whatsoever. I shouldn't say they have no contralateral movement, but it looks like their upper bodies are frozen.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  It's a block.

• 16:17Tim Ferriss?

  It's a block. And you could potentially say, well, that person is muscle bound, but that's not totally accurate, right? In the sense that, correct me if I'm oversimplifying this, but it seems like they are plane bound because their movement patterns are so limited. That of course, like what you train for, you're going to get more of. So they have done one piece that is maybe, let's call it necessary, but not sufficient. If you want athletic movement. And you talked about also resurrecting or improving your own running. And just seeing the difference, not having the expectation that I'm going to become a competitive

• 16:57Tim Ferriss?

  cross-country runner, but for a very, very long time, and this goes back to even like 2004, 2005, when I was in Argentina doing Tango, trust me, there's a tie in here. And a bunch of people would laugh at me and they would be like, you have cintura de pollo, cintura de pollo, which, or cinta de pollo, which would be like, you have the waist of a chicken, which like, if you try to think of a chicken, doesn't rotate, doesn't rotate. And in Tango, they want you to dissociate the upper and lower body. And I had a lot of trouble with that. So they were like, you have the waist of a chicken. Now, I would like to overcome this waist of a chicken situation. And watch the video. One of the exercises you have in that video is rope flow, which I want you to talk about,

• 17:42Tim Ferriss?

  but I'll, I'll give people just a teaser, which is, saw the video, I was like, logically, this makes a lot of sense to me. Right? Biomechanically, it makes a lot of sense. It's addressing a deficit that I have, but it's a scary deficit because when I have tried to really embrace rotation before and the sheer forces involved, very often I either overdo it, even with very low dosing. And in some cases, like the back spasms, I'm out of commission for a week or two. Like, I really can't sleep. And so I've really stayed away from it. But you showed this rope flow and I was actually visiting Jake Muse, who's been on this podcast. He's the CEO of Maui New Venison. And we went to this outdoor gym in Hawaii that they'd put together for the team over

• 18:27Tim Ferriss?

  there. And there was a rope. I was like, huh, look at that. Okay. Let me try it. And I felt so good.

• 18:35Tim Ferriss?

  After training, I mean, training is a bit of an exaggeration. After playing around with the rope. And I was like, okay, I want to pay attention to this. Cause when I was really young, it's like, okay, let's do like some metabolic conditioning. Like if I'm not puking into a bucket, I didn't train properly or hard enough. But then I started training with people like Jersey Gregorik, who we spoke about. Amazing world record holder in Olympic weightlifting, at least he was masters. And other folks where you actually can feel better after the workout than you did beforehand. So what is this rope flow as an example? And how does it demonstrate or develop the kind of stuff that we're alluding to?

• 19:13Speaker 02

  I'm really happy that David Weck, he's the guy who started invented rope flow.

• 19:18Tim Ferriss?

  The progenitor.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  The progenitor of rope. That's on air, David. Go ahead and clip that, David. He's gonna love that. He's the one who developed, popularized, got the moves going. I mean, he came onto our show and then he showed these videos back in like these 2006, 2005 style videos, right? Him doing rope flow on like a roof in, I don't know, San Jose or something, or San Diego. And he came and he showed it to us maybe.

• 19:43Tim Ferriss?

  On a roof?

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:44Tim Ferriss?

  I'll bookmark that for later.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  I gotta send it to you. David's a character. He's great. And I've learned so much from him, by the way. I love that guy. Continuing to learn from him too. But back to rope flow. He came and showed it to us maybe four years ago. And when he mentioned it initially, I think sometimes when you have a certain amount of experience in training or whatever, you hear something new and you're like, okay, trendy or what's swinging a rope through space really going to do for you. But through having so many people and talking to and learning from so many people that have changed the way I move and have affected me positively.

• 20:15Tim Ferriss?

  Can I pause for one second?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:16Tim Ferriss?

  Don't lose your train of thought. Because you do a lot outside of the gym, or I should say outside of the weight training gym. Right? A very, very serious dedicated jujitsu practitioner.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:27Tim Ferriss?

  Which is not purely in sagittal plane.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:31Tim Ferriss?

  It's a lot more going on.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Okay. The jujitsu for me is, was really fun to start. We can talk about that later, but that's the sport I started doing because I realized that all the lifting I was doing had me feeling very stiff and unathletic. So I got into jujitsu about nine or 10, almost 10 years back to try to see if I could combat the way my body was feeling. Which had its own issues, but rope flow, when David told me about it initially, I was apprehensive. I got a rope, I started doing it, got frustrated, dropped it. Kind of like the girl in the park that we met today. Yeah. You get a rope, you do it for a little bit, you don't know what to do, you drop it. How did he sell it to you? Do you remember kind of what the pitch was? He talked about all the benefits and he showed it. He even like showed me some in the gym, him and his head coach, Chris Chamberlain.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  But it didn't necessarily stick because I didn't have kind of like a structure to it. So what I ended up doing was I ended up just like looking at a bunch of people that I could see on YouTube. I went through some of the videos that David sent me and I just tried to practice it a little bit each day. Frustration would set in though, because the flow wasn't happening. You know, it's called rope flow because I think people ask, are there sets, reps, et cetera? No, you just go, you rotate, you move, you put the rope away, you go do what you do. It's not like a workout, it's a, it's play. Yeah, it's closer to like slacklining. Exactly. It's play. It's a flow practice. But once things started clicking and I started seeing how it was like affecting my jujitsu.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  And in my jujitsu, it's inherently an asymmetrical practice, the martial art. You have a dominant side and a non-dominant side. So you'll tend to do things, whether it's sweeps, whether it's takedowns, et cetera. Guard passing, you go that one direction, you grease that dominant groove. And your non-dominant side ends up being just this goofy mess, right? But I started realizing that. Oh, that's just your non-dominant side? No, I'm kidding. I was saying that about myself. I'm not gonna spar you. No, no. No, but seriously, but, but what slowly started happening was I started noticing like a scissor sweep I'd really do to my right side, I'm now, ooh, that left side rotation felt pretty powerful. I don't usually drill that. What happened there? Passes to my left side started feeling better.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  And the reason that was happening was because when doing rope flow, it's a symmetrical practice. You learn to rotate using your spine on your dominant side, but you get that rotation on your other side. And what happens is as you do this back and forth, naturally you want to make your non-dominant side feel as good as your dominant. So now your rotation with your spine to the left side of your body, or your non-dominant side starts to feel just as good as your dominant. And you're moving with more symmetry through everything that you do. Yeah, and let me add something just with kind of beginner's eyes.

• 23:11Tim Ferriss?

  Now that I have a PhD in rope flow after

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 23:15Tim Ferriss?

  Well, I would just say that one of the benefits of something like rope flow from a development of like symmetrical abilities perspective is that you get a lot of reps because you could do something in the gym that's aimed at symmetry, but like, how many reps and how many sets are you actually going to do? If you're programming properly and at what point is your technique going to degrade? Where you might be doing more harm than good, whereas with the rope flow, it's like, if it doesn't feel good, you're going to know because it's going to be janky. You might whack yourself in the ankle, whack yourself in the back of the head like I did, whereas if it feels fluid, you're going to know it feels fluid and you get a lot of reps.

• 23:55Tim Ferriss?

  So you have the benefit of volume on your side in developing that water feel.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  So there's that benefit of volume, but at its most basic level, you learn to navigate that rope, move it through space while using your spine as the the main mover. You learn to do that. Initially, it's a very handsy thing. You're using your hands a lot, but then you learn to follow the weight of the rope and use your spine both sides. You notice if you walk after you now have this natural swagger that starts to happen when you're walking, you're moving through space with that spinal engine.

• 24:27Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm going to try to just paint a visual for people when they're imagining rope flow because some people, I imagine, are not going to really have a video in their mind as we're talking. This is going to age me, but I'll try it anyway. So if you imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger, Conan the Barbarian, iconic scene with the sword, with the sword, swinging it on either side. Okay, you got it. You got a sword in front. Now he's swinging it to either side. Okay. Now imagine instead of the sword, you have a rope that is whatever this is, and I don't know, inch, inch and a half, two inches thick, something like that, like a heavyish rope. All right. And so now imagine you're you're swinging this rope around, but instead of just using your hands, let's just say you bring your hands in closer to your chest and now you're

• 25:10Tim Ferriss?

  Creating that figure eight with your shoulders and that is then swinging the blade, AKA the rope, right? So just imagine that kind of movement. Is that fair enough?

• 25:22Speaker 02

  That's fair. That's fair. And along with that, it's not just the spine, it's the weight shift of the feet. Cause now you're shifting from one side to the other, left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot, right? And the one of the reasons why I believe it's helped so much with my jujitsu, because jujitsu, it's a very rotational practice when you're trying to leverage an opponent from one side or the other, is because my weight shift on both sides of my body has improved from my feet. So this is one reason why when you start to like do more rope flow and you start to get more of the underhand, the side of the underhand practice, you've hit a boxing bag before, right? You've done that type of work. Go do that type of work again and do some uppercuts, do some hooks, but remember the things that you've learned. You're learning how to generate power and rotation from the

• 26:06Speaker 02

  ground through your fists. There's so many people that I've seen now that have literally said, it's improved my punching, or I actually know how to throw a punch because I've learned how to swing this through space.

• 26:16Tim Ferriss?

  Also, like you were explaining and the underhand, like, okay, so guys, we're talking about the Conan and the barbarian thing. We won't belabor this. We'll obviously have some video linked if you're listening to audio, but imagine that you have the rope. It is behind you, right? You're dragging a rope. Let's just say with two hands on one side, it's thick rope. And then you pull it up and the rope is taking this sort of upward trajectory, like a diagonal. That would be sort of, I know it's not the best description, but that'd be like the underhand. Whereas if you're like bringing it over your shoulder, like a whip or something, that would be the overhand.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Went to the whip again, Tim.

• 26:51Tim Ferriss?

  What was that?

• 26:51Speaker 02

  You went to the whip again, Tim.

• 26:53Tim Ferriss?

  You know, you know, this is why you don't go to your BDSM dungeon the night before your podcast. It just bleeds over, guys. I'm sorry. All right. Guilty as charged. So what appeals to me, and I mean, this is like my enthusiasm is outstripping my experience. It's probably the story of my life. But what the little that I've seen of say rope flow as one tool in the toolkit, part of what appeals to me about it is that like my experience early on with Pavel and kettlebells, there's this weird like what the fuck transfer where people who let's say do a bunch of kettlebell work suddenly have better running times. And they're like, what? What do you mean? What the hell is going on? Right? Or because of the thicker diameter after over time, they don't even realize it,

• 27:38Tim Ferriss?

  but suddenly the limiting factor, which was their grip on the deadlift, has been not entirely removed, but improved dramatically. And when I looked at the rope flow, I'm like, okay, forget about the rope. It's a tool for engaging these other planes of movement. And if done in, we were talking about this earlier today as well, not necessarily as an hour long workout where you're just like dying inside, but rather like flossing your teeth or getting up and taking a shower. It's like, okay, you take a shower once a day, like rope flow once a day. And over time, the adaptations that would take place. And one thing I didn't tell you, because I did confess that this is very self-serving as a meeting, because I was like, I really want to dial in my programming,

• 28:22Tim Ferriss?

  recognizing there are things I want to do in the future, which are not breaking powerlifting records, ain't gonna happen. It's definitely not beating you in jujitsu, because I'll get my, all of my penises snapped off, don't need that. But I would never do that to you. Unless, dot, dot, dot. I appreciate that. It wouldn't take very much. But there are things I would really like to do. I would like to compete in more sports, even if it's just in a club capacity. I would love to get back on the tennis courts and get back to playing tennis. And this might require some elbow surgery, but get back to rock climbing. And also, one thing I didn't mention, but probably is the thing that I would tie most directly to the rope flow. I love working on pads in Muay Thai. And it is such a good workout.

• 29:05Tim Ferriss?

  I'm not going to get yet another goddamn concussion. I don't need any more of those. And I would really like to get to the point again, where I can train on pads hard for lots of rounds with a really, really skilled trainer. I just love that experience. And I'm so bored of stationary biking for my endurance work. So bored. I mean, God bless these tools, but still, it's, it's pretty boring. So where should we go? There are lots of tools in the toolkit. Let me ask you this, for people who might be wondering, and guys, I'm not getting like an affiliate commission on rope sales here. Like I have no dog in this fight, but it seems to be a very versatile tool.

• 29:50Tim Ferriss?

  And there are lots of versatile tools, but it is also a tool that is very hard to injure yourself with. And for me, it's like weightlifting and a lot of training, number one, unless it's a sport, right, is about injury minimization first and foremost. So if I add in strength training, that increases the likelihood, or endurance training, increases the likelihood of me getting injured, scratch it, it's out. And then I'll take my risks where I need and want to take my risks, like skiing, but I don't want to take it in the weight room. How long does it take for people to see some benefits from something like rope flow? And like, what have you seen in students and people who try this and stick with it for a couple of weeks?

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Literally, I've had people that are in the strong human community that literally after day one, they're finding that they have better balance walking up the steps. And these are people in their 50s and 60s. They're like, I'm walking upstairs and I feel more balanced. Why? Because you're shifting your weight from one side to the other in a more efficient manner, because the rope has taught you how to do that. You'll feel better rather immediately. Now, the question is like, how deep do you want to take? How many of these movements do you want to learn? I've seen Kelly Stretts start posting more about rope flow, and he's been talking about it in the form of just being a warm up before you do any of your lifting movements as a good rotational warm up. And that's great. So it can just be used for that.

• 31:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  But I think there is a power that comes with the practice when, like today, we linked around four movements together, the overhand, the propeller, and the dragon, and the underhand.

• 31:19Tim Ferriss?

  What was it called when I donkey punched myself in the back of the head with the rope? We should, we should give that one a name. That's the Ferris.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  That's what you call Ferris. The one thing I want to mention about this too is this, honestly, I look at rope flow as kind of like its own internal martial art. Do you know, do you know internal martial arts?

• 31:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  So when it comes to internal martial arts, like I think Tai Chi would be considered one, Bagua would be considered an internal martial art. When it comes to these martial arts, they're not necessarily like extra martial arts like jiu jitsu, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, that's based on the output, based on the damage you're going to give to an opponent. It's, the focus is more so on breathing, mastering the movement, linking the movements together. You're more focused on what's going on internally and what your body is doing through space. Now, there are forms of, like, aspects of Tai Chi that can be applied to combat, but when you see a lot of older people doing Tai Chi, it's this flowing movement practice that gets the body feeling better afterwards than when it began.

• 32:15Tim Ferriss?

  In a lot of ways, just having spent a good amount of time in like early mornings in China and so on, it's kind of like, people are gonna crucify me for this, but it's kind of like Chinese yoga in a sense, like they are moving through all of these different planes of movement, they're doing it every day, even the kind of rotational kidney slapping stuff, there are some similarities.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 32:35Tim Ferriss?

  When you look at rope flow and then you look at what these like 80, 90 year olds are doing in China in the park every morning.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  And they're 80 and 90, dude, that's the thing that's so amazing to me, like you're still moving like that at 80 and 90, you're independent, you know, like I would even assume that a lot of these people probably feel minimal amounts of pain, they feel a level of freedom in their bodies at that age.

• 32:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  That's kind of how I look at rope flow, when you learn to link things together. So we learned a few movements today, but there are so many more movements that you learn. And the cool thing is that you do some of this stuff this week, Tim, you're gonna wake up and it's just gonna be there, you don't have to think about the movement, now you just go outside, you do it, it's no thought, it turns into a flow, it turns into a flow state practice. That's where I think the strength is, because that feels like play. It no longer feels like, you know, a frustrating rope flow practice, although when you start learning new moves, there's a level of frustration, I still hit myself, that eye hit you did today where you knocked your eye, I do that all the time when I'm learning new shit, the rope will still do that to me, because the rope teaches you how to rotate.

• 33:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 33:36Speaker 02

  You learn how to follow its weight, it'll teach you how to rotate better by hitting you, by not rotating cleanly. When you clean that up, then it rotates cleanly to the left and cleanly to the right. And then again, when you link all this stuff together, it's play, it's a flow state play that always feels better afterwards.

• 33:55Tim Ferriss?

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• 34:39Tim Ferriss?

  and recovery, and magnesium 3 and 8 for sleep. All Momentous products are NSF and INFORMS Sports Certified, which is professional athlete and Olympic level testing. So what's on the label is exactly what you're getting. Try it out for yourself and let me know what you think. So just head to livemomentous.com/tim. That's livemomentous.com/tim or use code TIM at checkout for 35% off of your first subscription. That's livemomentous.com/tim. Momentus is M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S. livemomentous.com/tim or code TIM for 35% off your first subscription.

• 35:21Tim Ferriss?

  Now, for people listening and for me, oftentimes when I say for people listening, it's just because I want to ask a question for myself. I am the type of person, I know myself well enough at this point, I am almost certainly not going to become the Muhammad Ali of rope flow or the Fred Astaire of rope flow. It's just not gonna happen. What are like the bread and butter minimum effective dose? Maybe people can find this, you can point them to where they can find these things, but like, are there two or three movements where you're like, okay, if you're just gonna do five minutes a day or 10 minutes a day, maybe it's two times five to like, start your day and to end your day? What are like the bread and butter moves where it's like, if you only did this, there would be a lot of upside?

• 36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:07Tim Ferriss?

  What are those?

• 36:08Speaker 02

  That would be, first off, I have a full foundations rope flow course that is free. It's like 50 plus videos of it. It's at skool.com/thestrongerhuman. It is free.

• 36:17Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Now, overhand, race and chase, underhand, race and chase, propeller or dragon, which is what we did today.

• 36:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Did I do race and chase?

• 36:26Speaker 02

  You did, yeah, that's true. The overhand, race and chase, you did the underhand, race and chase.

• 36:30Tim Ferriss?

  Race and chase is walking while you're doing?

• 36:32Speaker 02

  That's, it's not walking, you just, you can just stand there, but you added walking into it. You added a gate pattern into it, right? So overhand, race and chase, underhand, race and chase, propeller, link those three together, you have a flow from side to side, right? And those are like, that's the basics, right? You learn to link those together, you'll feel better.

• 36:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  But again, I think that- You mentioned you're not gonna become the mom at a Lee of Rope Flur or whatever. But one thing that I think is good to understand is like, we got decades for this, bro. You know what I mean? Like, what is three to five or 10 minutes a day for a few years? How good are you gonna be at this a year from now? Just for five minutes? Like, you're gonna look pretty fucking good. And then, oh, my mom's probably listening. She didn't want me to curse.

• 37:11Tim Ferriss?

  Sorry, Mom, I'm gonna forget and I'm gonna curse myself, so. But blame it on my bad influence.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  But five years from now, doing it five minutes or you'll probably do it longer because you're gonna naturally just get better at it. You're gonna just be moving really well with this from this minimal input.

• 37:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  It can be a practice that beats you up, especially if, because you can get a workout from it. It doesn't have to be that. It doesn't have to be something that beats you up. But if you want to go intense with it, use a heavier rope.

• 37:37Tim Ferriss?

  How much do ropes cost for people listening? Cause I haven't even asked that. I should have asked that.

• 37:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:41Tim Ferriss?

  How, like, to get something you can use for this?

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 37:44Tim Ferriss?

  Cause I do find a little bit of heft to be helpful, right? We started with a very lightweight, light rope, which was almost like a lariat, like a lasso. I mean, it was very small in diameter. How much does it cost to get the Magna XL?

• 37:58Speaker 02

  The Magnum, the Magnum.

• 37:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. How much does one of those cost?

• 38:03Speaker 02

  I think the Magma XL is like-

• 38:05Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, it's magma?

• 38:06Speaker 02

  Magma, not Magnum. No, it's magma. Your mind went to magma.

• 38:09Tim Ferriss?

  I know, I know, I know.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  But it's magma. It's red magma.

• 38:13Tim Ferriss?

  Some people can't be saved. I got it. Magma, okay. God, I screwed that up twice. Okay, magma XL. And this probably, we were kind of bouncing around, probably the rope itself probably weighs like two pounds, two, three pounds.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:26Tim Ferriss?

  Maybe, maybe, maybe less.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:28Tim Ferriss?

  All right. And how much does that cost?

• 38:31Speaker 02

  That one's like $80, I think.

• 38:33Tim Ferriss?

  $80.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  This is the thing, though. If you want to just get yourself a rope from Home Depot and cut it and make a rope, that's fine. You can work that. You can even work with an exercise band you might have at home. You can mess with some of this using a belt. If you don't wanna get anything, if you just wanna like, do the bare bone stuff. But certain ropes, like the Magma XL, the RMT rope, which I think is like $40 or $45, there's a feedback that you get from the rope because it's very smooth when you're rotating it. Kind of feels better than a Home Depot rope. Doesn't mean you can't use a Home Depot rope or a rope from a boating store. Boating store ropes are actually pretty good quality. Yeah, I bet. Boating stores are really good quality ropes. So you could get something from there, cut it up, make your rope, you're good. Right? So that's the thing. It's like, it's a practice that if you don't want to spend anything on it, you don't have to.

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Or if you want to spend nothing or very minimal amounts of money, you can do that. But then all you need is your rope, some sunlight, or you can do it indoors if you want to. And you're gonna feel better. One thing I want to stress is this. Do you know who Bill Maeda is out of Hawaii? I have seen his videos. Yeah, Bill's the man, man. Yeah. I love Bill. And we had him on a show a few years back. People have probably been saying this forever, but when he told me and when he started speaking this way, it really resonated with me, where he calls his workout each day, he calls it a practice. It's his practice. How, for people who don't know who this is, how would you describe Bill? He's a lifting samurai. That's how I would personally describe him. How old is Bill at this point? Fifty-five or fifty-six.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  And that guy is unbelievably shredded and strong. Strong, shredded. Bill has a level of also curiosity that I admire. Because Bill has had so much fitness experience through the years. He's done so much. He's had a lot of positive and negative experiences. But he's also someone that, as much as he knows, he's continuously open to learning more and refining his knowledge and what he teaches his clients, the people he works with. And that's one thing I really admire about him. Because he's fifty-something years old, he looks amazing, he does well, but like, he's also a sponge. And that's something that I want to, ideally, I hope when I'm fifty-five or fifty-six, I want to remain a sponge. Yeah. I don't want to lose that. But he calls his movement, his workouts, a practice. Because he changes it up each day.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  He does like five, 10, 15 minutes of movement, and that's his daily practice. And that's kind of the way I look at my movement practice. There are, like, when I go into a gym, I have in my notes app, I have just certain things that I might be doing during that day, or I'll know what I did last week. So I'll be, okay, let's maybe add this in or do something else. But I keep things around so that I get a general daily minimum amount of movement in no matter what. So I have like certain flow movement that I'll get in. I have a club by my desk. I have a sandbag by my workstation. I have a sandbag in my garage. I have rings in my kitchen. I have things spent throughout the house and throughout my space so that when I go by them, I'm encouraged to lift them. I'm encouraged to lift the bag. I'm encouraged to swing the rope. I'm encouraged

• 41:29Speaker 02

  to swing the club. I do all these things on a daily basis. That has my body feeling better and better as I continue to progress at the meat and potatoes of what I'm really trying to push forward. So I have these daily minimums, which is just my practice, these are just things I do. And I'll have certain things that are might be the workout, whether it's the jujitsu or the thing I do in the gym or my garage, or maybe I go out to the field and I do some stuff, some extra work. But I have those daily minimums that are just part of my practice that just makes sure that I'm always making progress so that the only time that I do something isn't just in my workout, right? I want my body to be able to do these things at any time.

• 42:08Tim Ferriss?

  And I mean, that underscores also some of the stuff that I saw and you explained in the video. And you have a lot of videos. It just happens to be the one that initially caught my attention. But if someone, let's just say, is training the big three lifts or whatever they happen to do, and they're hitting them once a week, or who knows, and then they're not getting really any movement practice between those, it's like, of course, they're going to be very constrained to a certain plane of movement, certain types of movements. Well, let me bring this back to me.

• 42:42Tim Ferriss?

  Been watching Conan O'Brien Must Go. If people haven't seen that travel show, you should, you should watch it because that's basically Conan's book. So I'll copy Conan here. We were talking about this back issue that's been plaguing me and how I am actually back to a point now as of just a few days ago where I'm loading more in terms of, let's just say, back squat, which is like a very open question as to whether to include it or not and other things. Making a lot of progress ever since really surgically trying to focus on lute exercises, which seems self-evident, but I could give people a long list of stories about why that's been a challenge over the last three years, but have made progress and want

• 43:25Tim Ferriss?

  to get back to, let's just say, doing, you know, five rounds of heavy work on Thai pads. And who knows, maybe even doing some jujitsu, although I have a lot of PTSD from my joint injuries. So what are some of the things you would potentially suggest? Like if you were getting me started with programming, and I'm sure you'd have to do an assessment and so on. There are some of the things we talked about over lunch. We don't have to talk about these, but like sandbag box squat. Recognizing that I'm very apprehensive about the low back. If I have to sit, for instance, on like a hardwood bench for 30 minutes and I don't have any padding, my back could be seized up for a week, which means basically no sleep. So

• 44:09Tim Ferriss?

  I'm scared of having that experience. And I recognize that if I don't load and work on my body, not just the low back in isolation, it's never going to be fixed or improve. So how would you think about training with respect to this?

• 44:25Speaker 02

  I'd have to rewind it. We talked a little bit about this early, but I'd have to rewind things back to first off, the way someone breathes through the way that they move. Yep. Daily, every single day. Because when you injure something initially, you injure a lower back, which has happened to me many a time in the past. When something happens that aggravates the area, you tend to hold your breath. Yeah. So when you bend to grab something, you'll, and then when you feel safe enough, you'll exhale and start breathing again. Some people do this without even realizing. They'll go down to tie their shoes and they have breath holds without realizing they have breath holds. It's now, it's just an ingrained movement pattern that they bend, hold their breath, come up, boom, they get out of the car, they're holding their breath.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Many people have instances through their day that the breath is being held. And the problem with that, the reason why that's a really big issue, is because when you hold your breath, your tissues will kind of seize up to keep everything in place. That's the Valsal maneuver. When lifters lift heavy loads and sometimes not heavy loads, is meant to increase that intra-abdominal pressure so that there is no movement of the spine when you're dealing with the load. That's what it's meant to do. But also there's limited movement. Yeah. When you're holding your breath. So the thing that I would want to get you doing is first to make sure that you learn how to breathe while doing everything.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  That doesn't mean just like breathe when you're doing everything through your house, et cetera. Like even when you're gonna go pick something up and you find, okay, I'm gonna hold my breath when I do this. Can you slow that movement down in a way that you can try to breathe while doing it? So that you're not ingraining that pathway of hold breath and do the thing. How can we do the thing and breathe? Because when we're breathing, the body feels safe. Like when you, if you're breathing and doing stretching, you're breathing or doing anything when it comes to movement, you move more freely. Yeah. Once you hold your breath, your body goes into this, I'm trying to stay safe. Same thing in jujitsu. When a new person starts jujitsu, the first thing that you have to tell them to do is breathe. You remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

• 46:36Speaker 02

  You're, you're on bottom side control or you're in some type of position and immediately you're like,

• 46:41Speaker 02

  like you're, you're, you're trying to produce force and you're holding your breath while doing so because you don't feel safe enough to produce that force while breathing. What this is gonna do is it's gonna help us to.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  Kind of get those tissues moving in the way that they should. The body's gonna feel safe, so those tissues are gonna start moving well. And we won't have excess tension throughout the whole system. And this is why I would tell somebody with whatever lifting that they're doing right now.

• 47:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, tell me.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Let's lower the loads that we're working with and learn how to use the breath while lifting, pushing, pulling, hinging. Let's learn to use the breath while doing all of this. What this means is when we are in our concentric phase of the lift, whether it's a push when lifting, whether it's a pull when pulling, whether it's hinging or coming up from a squat or exhaling. Let's just use the squat as an example rather than a bunch of things. The squat. Inhale when you're going down to the hole. Exhale when you're coming out of the hole. Let's learn how to do that. Because in life, if we're gonna squat down to the ground, we wouldn't, we shouldn't, hold our breath when going down to the ground. But many people do. We should just kinda like, whether it's inhale when getting down there,

• 47:53Speaker 02

  and then breathe normally, we should be able to do that. And what I wanna try to help you do is I want you to make this a global phenomenon. You're having very minimal or no, unless they're purposeful breath holds, you're not holding your breath during the day. Right? There's other benefits outside of this where you're not gonna feel as stressed. Because a lot of people, when they are looking at their phone, where they're, they start thinking of something that brings a level of anxiety, inherently they start to hold their breath and they don't realize it. This is something that's gonna help you get rid of global tension outside of what you're doing in the gym, which is gonna help you just feel better overall. And this isn't something you deal with in just a day. This is a habit change. Right? If you wanna change the way you do this when you're lifting, you must lower your loads. You don't do this with maximal loads. You don't do this with heavy squats, heavy deadlifts.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  You don't do this when lifting heavy sandbags. Or even kettlebells, right? If you're not used to this. You work on doing this with light load and just like you progressed before with heavier loads, you progressively overload your ability to lift while breathing over time. You can progressively work with heavier and heavier load.

• 48:53Tim Ferriss?

  So assuming I'm working on this.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:56Tim Ferriss?

  Working on the breathing. Tim, breathe.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 48:59Tim Ferriss?

  All right. My garage is a gym. I may not have all the requisite tools at the moment. It's got all the basics. What are, whether it is me or others, but what are some of the non-negotiable exercises that you might prescribe for someone in my position where it's like, okay, I remember back in the day, I liked to consider myself pretty athletic.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 49:23Tim Ferriss?

  My enthusiasm outstrips my structural integrity on some regular occasions. And I would like to train for the long game, but also like, I would like to be very strong. I would like to be, for me, I would like to be very strong. I still know I can develop that capacity. It's just a matter of strengthening or catering to the low back so that I'm not terrified every time I set foot in the gym of having some spasm that cost me two weeks of sleep. So let me ask you a question. So back squat or no back squat?

• 49:58Speaker 02

  For you?

• 49:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Or?

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Depends on the type of back squat we're talking.

• 50:02Tim Ferriss?

  All right. Because like we had box squats come up and I had some questions and concerns around that. Talked about sandbags. Like, how would you think about lower body? I mean, I guess it could be full body, but like lower body loading for someone like me?

• 50:17Speaker 02

  I would want you to focus a little bit more on unilateral before we do more bilateral, axial spine back squat loading.

• 50:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 50:25Speaker 02

  So something like different forms of lunges. The ATG split squat is a really good money movement. Do you know what the ATG split squat is?

• 50:31Tim Ferriss?

  I do not know if that is.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  ATG split squat is something popularized by Ben Patrick. Deep knee flexion of the front knee. The back foot has a large amount of hip extension. So you're getting hip extension of the back leg, deep knee flexion of the front leg. So you're building a level of strength through long ranges of motion with that movement. So those ATG split squats, different types of lunges, I would have you focus on that instead of the traditional axial loaded back squat for a while.

• 51:00Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  I'd also say that. Not that bilateral squatting is bad, but if you do, maybe you start learning how to do that with a sandbag. So use a kettlebell or a sandbag with that. First thing you need to learn how to lift a sandbag because when you lift a sandbag, the load is in front of you. Your spine is going to be in a fairly neutral position, but you're going to have a little bit more slight maybe flexion in that spine. And you're going to learn how to breathe against that load while squatting down with it in front of you. So that could be a 50, 100 pound sandbag. You'll probably start there and you'll probably move forward with that over time. But the thing is, is you're not directly loading that spine right now as you're doing. You're not causing all of that compression. Not that compression

• 51:40Speaker 02

  is bad, but it seems as if you're a bit compression sensitive when it comes to squatting patterns because of what's going on with your back.

• 51:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  Now, if you did want to work on some bilateral squatting, which I don't think is a horrible idea, I would probably say if you wanted to work with a barbell, don't squat to full deep knee flexion depth. Let's stay away from that for a while. So let's do barbell back squats to a box, making sure you're maintaining tension as you go down to the box and coming up. So you're not just plopping down to the box, sitting back, losing that tension, then coming out, maintaining that tension while breathing and you're working maybe 40, 50%, 50, maybe 60% of your one rep max, where it's like you can actually master the movement without stressing about the load. But over time, you can inch that load up in a safe manner.

• 52:29Tim Ferriss?

  And is the reason for that, just because this might help other people. So I injured myself three years ago doing a workout that did not feel like an injury at the time. It was back squatting, but I was basically going like ass to heels. And I suspect in retrospect that I was doing like a little butt wink where I was starting to, to make it simple, just kind of like round the lower back in the bottom ranges.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:54Tim Ferriss?

  And I think it was that kind of bending of the paperclip that caused that initial acute problem.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  That was a real squat, bro.

• 53:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  That's how you're supposed, that's a real squat, bro. Like, you don't squat ass to grass.

• 53:07Tim Ferriss?

  So the box would...

• 53:11Tim Ferriss?

  Let's just say, would it be just above parallel?

• 53:13Speaker 02

  It'd be above parallel, right at ninety degrees.

• 53:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, basically helps to mitigate the risk of that. Would you do something similar with the sandbag? Or would you do that from the floor? Like, what does the range of motion look like?

• 53:24Speaker 02

  You could squat down to a box, or you could squat all the way down with a light load if you feel comfortable. I would suggest that in your situation, you inch that down over time. Like, what you could do is if you have multiple sandbags, you could squat down to the other sandbag, or you could squat down to a box. And then over time, lower that height where you feel comfortable. Just make sure as you're squatting down, when you hit depth, you're maintaining tension. When I say maintaining tension, by the way, I mean, you're not totally just sitting down on the box, limping out and then coming back up. You're inhaling as you go down to the box. You're still maintaining that position, and then you drive up. You're not losing that tension that you've created in your legs, your feet especially as you go down. You're maintaining it. The reason why people do the valsalva maneuver is so when they hold their breath, they can maintain structural integrity of the spine, rib cage over hips, et cetera.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  When you're braced and you can't move, what's keeping that integrity is the air that you've stored in your abdomen when you're squatting down. When you're breathing while doing this, whether you're inhaling while you're going down, exhaling when coming up, the structural integrity is you're maintaining it. Like, you're maintaining it while you're breathing. So when you're breathing, you do have more room for that to happen. But you should be able to maintain that structure without the breath. When I deadlifted seven fifty-five, I didn't use a belt. The main reason I didn't use a belt is I wanted to make sure that my structure could deadlift this weight without the need of outside assistance. The weight belt, when you're using it, is supposed to, when you push against it, increase the amount of intra-abdominal pressure you're able to create and help you maintain that.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  But I, when I did that, the reason why I didn't use a belt is because it didn't make sense to me to develop all this strength if I couldn't do it on my own. So when now we're breathing while doing this.

• 55:05Tim Ferriss?

  Very Constantine, Konstantinos. You remember that guy?

• 55:08Speaker 02

  I think, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:09Tim Ferriss?

  Back in the day.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  A lot of Russians did that, though. A lot of Russians would do that, you know? But I think that there's a knowledge there because, like, you want to be able to do all of this stuff on your own. Yes, it can add some, but like...

• 55:22Speaker 02

  Having to need to use a belt to do everything to maintain your structure, I don't think is the best idea. Now, when we're using the breath, we're not getting that extra pressure that it helps create, but we're training ourselves to always be able to maintain the right structure and maintain the right amount of tension while breathing when lifting weights. And the reason why we're doing that is because life wants us to do that. When we're going through life, when we're fighting, we're not holding our breath. And I know that some people will say, well, this isn't the gym. The gym is supposed to help you do this stuff better. The reason why I started doing this is because I wanted to make sure that the strength I was building in the gym would be something that would Transferable. Transfer really well to the fighting that I was doing and the stuff that I was trying to do.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  And in all of that, breath holding is never part of it. Unless swimming, there's breath holding. I think even for me now, when lifting something really heavy, it's an exhale. Like I will, I will, I will use like, when, when people see me using sandbags, this is an aside, but I was always somebody who like, when I lifted, I purposefully wanted to stay quiet. I don't like emoting. I don't like it. It's not in my nature to be the person that goes, ah, when doing stuff. But when you learn to breathe while lifting, what ends up happening is when you're creating that force, when you're lifting that sandbag off the ground, when you're pushing, ha, that happens, right? You're lifting, ha, that happens. It's not because I'm trying to sound hard or tough or whatever. It's because

• 56:51Speaker 02

  It's like the TIE fighters kicking, same thing. It's what my body needs to do to produce the force sufficiently and I can stay safe through it. As that started to happen, I started to feel stronger and it transfers. You know what I mean? So that's why, something that actually I think would help people kind of understand this, especially the exhaling to create tension is, let's do this right now. I think you already understand, but I think it's serve. Growl. Growl. Growl. I'll do it first. Yeah. Growl. Ah. What do you feel? Do it, just breathe and then ah.

• 57:27Tim Ferriss?

  I feel, I mean, there's a sort of shielding. There's like abdominal contraction.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  There's a level of tension that's created.

• 57:37Tim Ferriss?

  That's the most noticeable thing, yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  But now, when you're exercising, when you see a fighter,

• 57:42Speaker 02

  that tension is created to keep this structure in place so it's safe when producing force. So this is why when I'm lifting a heavy sandbag, or when I'm coming out of the hole of a squat, or when I'm deadlifting, sometimes this will come out. Because it's my breath helping me create a strong enough structure to not buckle under the load I'm lifting, rather than me holding the breath. And not that, again, not that this is bad. If you're a lifter and you're doing this for your maximal lifts, I'm not telling you to just desert the Valsal maneuver. But I do believe that if you learn to breathe while lifting, this is one of the fundamental things that will keep you safe while lifting, that will help you progress well, and will help you decrease the amount of stress that it has on your body over time.

• 58:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, okay, cool.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  And lastly, the biggest thing, I think, is it'll help you get rid of excess tension that you're holding in your body when you don't need to have that tension. A lot of people deal with that.

• 58:37Tim Ferriss?

  Let's say I'm working on that. Let's say I decide box squat, can give that a go. Maybe I have a safety squat yoke or something. Sandbag, all right. Probably do some ice lateral stuff, so ATG split squat. For somebody who's listening, let's say maybe they're in a similar boat, or maybe their back is fine, but they want to get stronger using these movements. What type of set rep programming do you give to someone who's not an elite powerlifter?

• 59:07Speaker 02

  There's no need to do anything under five or six reps. And if that's the case, you don't have to do that. Because over time, as you work with sets of five, six, eights, tens, right? Over time, you'll naturally be able to get stronger with those, in those rep schemes with those loads. And I'm not saying that heavy lifting isn't good. I do things that are three, four, or five reps when I'm working with heavy lifting. I still do that. But the problem that happens with a lot of people when they get into a program that's focused on the load and the heaviness of the load. They start doing things they shouldn't do to lift that load.

• 59:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 59:44Speaker 02

  So if we're trying to focus on maintaining our breath, there's going to come a point where you're working with a load that you're going to find you won't be able to breathe well. You won't be able to inhale and exhale at the phases of the lift that you should be. But you're also, you managed to lift it and you're like, okay, I'm strong enough for this. So you'll add on more and then you'll get to a place where you're holding your breath. And then you'll get to the place where all the times that anything's really happened for me has been when I was creating a little bit too much tension. I was holding my breath and something happens, right? Not when I was breathing with it. So that's why I don't necessarily, if you're not someone who's powerlifting, and if you're in the gym, you're just wanting to lift and get stronger. I don't want you to focus on the weight on the bar.

• 1:00:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  I want you to focus on the quality of the movement.

• 1:00:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I'm by myself in my garage, so I definitely have no one to impress. So what would you suggest then? Would it be two, three sets of blank with like X number of minutes in between? Because like we were chatting a little bit and this is nothing, obviously compared to what you do. But when I was my strongest, like back in the day, which was like probably 96 when I was in China of all places.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:45Tim Ferriss?

  I was doing sets of, let's just call it six to 10.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Tim Ferriss?

  But closer to six in pretty much all movements with like five to 10 minute rests, right? I was taking really long rest intervals and generally hitting, it was split push pull legs and I was hitting each of those workouts once a week.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Tim Ferriss?

  Roughly, what would you prescribe as a starting point? Like for me with sets and reps and rest intervals and things like that? Any thoughts on how to approach it?

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  Two or three sets per movement. I like people doing things for sets of, not sets, reps, six, 10, 12. I would say doing that kind of rep scheme. So what I would do is on certain days, if you're doing two times a week in the gym, one of those days have your movements doing maybe sets of six or so. And I would also split it up like this too. When I lift, I kind of do upper and lower body. I don't just break it up into like a push pull, whatever. I do kind of full body stuff, right?

• 1:01:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  So if you're doing upper and lower on a certain day, for one day for your upper body movements, if you're doing sets of six or so, do sets of 10 on your lower body, eight to 10, higher rep.

• 1:01:53Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so this day, let's just say it's Monday.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:56Tim Ferriss?

  Upper body would be six rep sets.

• 1:01:59Speaker 02

  Six rep.

• 1:01:59Tim Ferriss?

  Lower body would be 10.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  Higher rep, 10, 12 sets, yeah. 12 reps per set. On another day, if you're doing a full body day again, I would say for the upper body, that would now be higher repetitions and your lower body would be lower repetitions. If you're doing two full body days. Now, I think you said you're doing push, pull, legs, right? And I'm not married to that. It's just easy for me to remember. There are so many ways to set things up, but for minimum effective dose, if you can do each body part twice per week, which you can probably do in two to three training days. It doesn't have to be a five day week split. Literally, you can do all this two or three days in the gym. For two days, that's how I would split it up. For three days, you get

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  a little bit more leeway with volume. And three days is nice because if you, for example, on your first day, if you find that you do better having slightly lower amounts of movements, then you can split that volume into three separate days rather than having that volume in two days instead. Does that make sense? Can you give me an example? So if you did five upper body movements and five lower body movements on one day, and then day two, you did five lower and five up. If you're finding that you, that's too much for you to do in a two day period. That would be too much for me. I, for whatever reason, handle volume very poorly. Instead of just totally taking down that workload, split that workload into three

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  days. So then you're doing, what is it? You just mentioned 20 total sets. Do six sets, six sets, and then on another day, it's going to be eight sets of that movement. You split that volumes three days, you're good. But you can still do that rep scheme where you hit the each body part twice a week. You manage to do some slightly lower repetitions, some slightly higher repetition, you're good. Hmm. And then what about rest between sets? That's variable because some people like to have actual rest between sets, but then you can also, if you're doing on a certain day, let's say for your upper body movements, that you do some push and some pull, you could superset those because they're antagonistic. Yeah. So when I say antagonistic, you do, instead of resting, you would do a pushing movement.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Then you could literally just, let's say you do a push, then you do a row. You could do that back to back because the recovery of each movement doesn't necessarily get too much in the way of each other. Yeah. There will be some stress from the weight you did in that specific first set, but the muscles being worked when you're doing that push movement do not get as much in the way as the muscles you're doing work in the pull movement. So you could rest if you wanted to, but you could also superset it. And one thing that I think, a concept that I want people to take from this, because I know how people love to have that specific program that they do, which is good. But learn to add an element of play into this. Learn to have an element of freedom into this. So if you feel like you want to rest like a minute or two in between a set, rest.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  If you feel like you want to superset, superset. Because again, I think that you can get very specific with it, but when you start making too many stringent rules within it, it can, for some people, become quite daunting and monotonous. So something that I do is like, when I'm doing like a squat, I'll sometimes do some rope flow in between, just to get some rotation.

• 1:05:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, let me ask you this, just to stand in for the audience here.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Tim Ferriss?

  Do you think you could have gotten away with that earlier in your training, right? Have you laid such an incredible foundation of strict, maybe monotonous, training that now you're like, okay, like this body's not really going anywhere. So if I want to do some sudoku in between my overhead presses, do some rope flow over here, maybe a little pantomiming in between this set and that set, that you can get away with it in a way that might not serve a beginner or intermediate? Or is that, am I off base there?

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  So the reason, let me mention the reason why I do rope flow in between. It's not because it's part of a workout, it's because it helps me feel better.

• 1:05:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  When I put so much compression on myself, there is a level of like, for me, stiffness that I feel from that set. The reason why I do the rope flow is to help me kind of undo that stiffness before my next set. That's the reason why I do it. I don't do it because it's like a super efficient part of the workout, but I do it because it helps me feel better for the next set I'm about to do. When I do a lot, like, and other people notice this too, but when you do a lot of compressive things back to back, you start to kind of feel this lower back tension and stiffness and this overall stiffness that you're creating for the workout.

• 1:06:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  The stiffness isn't necessarily a bad thing if you have something, especially like, you don't have to do rope flow in between sets too. You do that post-workout or later, that will be something that really will help you feel better. But the thing is, is like, When you only do that, you then walk around with that stiffness that you've created and you have nothing to undo it. This is one of the reasons why a lot of people will work out and after their workout, they'll do dead hangs because they feel like I'm getting this decompression in my spine from everything. And that can feel better, but the thing is, is like you can get that same decompression from the rope. You could get the same type of decompression from swimming. Swimming does the same thing. But the reason why I was saying all this is like, have a structure to what you do,

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  but allow yourself to kind of add things to it or subtract things to it when you want. The only thing that's going to help you get bigger and stronger is progressive overload over a long period of time.

• 1:07:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  It's not going to be the magic set and red scheme that you're doing right now. It's going to be what you're doing being progressed over years.

• 1:07:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  And for people listening, because I think one criticism that I get a lot is like, you didn't get this big from rope flow. Nah, I didn't get this big from rope flow. But at the same time, I could have gotten this big while feeling better for years.

• 1:07:41Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:42Speaker 02

  If I had the other practices that I do, like the rope, the clubs, the kettlebells, if I'd had those practices included, it's not about getting big. It's about gaining strength and muscle, but moving well throughout the whole process.

• 1:07:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  Not focusing on the way you look, but moving like a fridge and feeling like you're old.

• 1:08:02Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  That's not the goal, right? I mean, I don't think anyone sets out to gain muscle and strength with also the goal of feeling like they're 80 years old. No one wants that, but that's where a lot of people are. And a lot of people, they'll assume that that's just part of the process.

• 1:08:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  And that doesn't really, doesn't need to be at all.

• 1:08:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you definitely need to hang out with Jersey. He'll enjoy hanging out with Jersey and Anya.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  I'm excited now from what you told me about him. I'm gonna like him.

• 1:08:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you guys, you guys will get a kick out of each other because for instance, like Jersey, he also does decompression, but usually hanging upside down and like.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  And like boots?

• 1:08:40Tim Ferriss?

  Boots, but he does some like really heavy weights, like he'll hold on to like a hundred pounds. In addition to hanging upside down. Anyway, he's got his own like approach to things for very, very short duration, like five to 10 seconds.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:51Tim Ferriss?

  But I think you'll find a lot of his stuff thought provoking, but he is all about movement and he tracks everything meticulously with his trainees, but he'll also look at their gait and he's like, I want to get you to the point where you walk like a dancer. He's like, that's definitely one of his explicit goals. It's like watch gait and movement in that way. And when I told him that I was doing, and I think there's a place for this, I'm going to continue to do it, but you know, I was doing biking for exercise and like what his thoughts were and he was like, terrible. He's like, he's like, that's stupid. So stupid. And Jersey, I know I'm paraphrasing here, but he was like, if you want to ride a bike because it's fun to ride from point A to point B. He's like, great. He's like, if you want to ride for 50 miles because you enjoy it. Great. He's like, if you're doing it though, is this like monotonous

• 1:09:35Tim Ferriss?

  punishment and training. He's like, terrible. He's like, don't do that.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that, but you know, I want to mention, don't lose your train of thought, but I think that's what he's mentioning there in terms of relation to gait. It's a very smart way to try to think about some of your training because when a lot of people think about the squat, when a lot of people get their feet set, they usually have their feet out at an angle.

• 1:09:56Tim Ferriss?

  Slightly pointed out.

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Slightly pointed out, right? Slightly pointed out toes. You're creating this force upward with that barbell. So you're learning how to have force coming from the ground through, but you're just going straight up and down. Now, the thing to think about, and the reason why I mentioned this is when you do watch a lot of people that develop those capacities, well, and a lot of them walk through space, it's almost like they're walking in a squat position with their feet. They're walking with their feet out like this.

• 1:10:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, they got a Charlie Chaplin.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  Now, yeah, the thing is, is like, you'll see some pro NBA players walking like this. You, you see a lot of that. I'm not going to necessarily say that that's bad. What I'm going to say is over time. I used to kind of walk like that, but as I started thinking about what my feet were doing during everything I was doing, and I started thinking about doing certain exercises that would potentially improve my gait, over time, now my feet face forward when I walk, and I'm not intentionally doing this, it's just my directionality through space is now forward. I'm not fighting myself trying to navigate forward with feet that are outwards. That's not efficient. I'm not saying everybody needs to walk with their toes forward, but I'm saying when you start thinking about ways to adjust your gait with your movement,

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  so this could be the bilateral movements like the ATG split squat, that could be using a sled. I think sleds are super powerful, and the unfortunate thing is like, not everyone has access to a sled, but that is literal forward and backward force production. When you're pushing a sled, there's this force that you're learning how to push forward, but you need to have your feet moving you forward too. So you're learning over time how to push a weight forward through space. I think they're super powerful, not just for developing structural strength, but also improving one's gait over time. The way you walk will change, and the rope will help with that too, but that's something to think about. Like, I don't think most people should be walking with their feet tucked out. And

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  I used to walk like that because sumo deadlifting, the feet are here, I'm producing force from a foot position like this. Squatting, I'm producing force from a foot position like this. Now, when I go and do other things, that's the way I move through space, and that's not efficient.

• 1:12:04Tim Ferriss?

  So, just because I'm curious, and at least long ago, found a lot of dividends from doing sumo deadlifts?

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  They're not bad, by the way.

• 1:12:13Tim Ferriss?

  Recommendations for sumo deadlifts? Any thoughts on common mistakes, tips that you've, sort of, principles that you've refined over time, where you're like, okay?

• 1:12:27Tim Ferriss?

  Here's some of my pre-flight checklist that might be helpful to people. And could you just describe, well, it's called sumo deadlift because it's a deadlift. You're pulling a barbell loaded with plates off the ground, but your legs are wide. Your hands are in between your legs going down to grab the barbell. So you look like a Yokozuna, like squatting down and getting ready to do the whole sumo thing. Hence the name. What recommendations might you have for people who are hoping to improve their sumo deadlift?

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  There's this funny thing within the powerlifting community where there are powerlifters who are like, they look at the sumo deadlift and they say, that's not a real deadlift.

• 1:13:00Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  That's not a conventional deadlift.

• 1:13:02Tim Ferriss?

  Conventional deadlift would be like knees inside the arms.

• 1:13:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's just so funny to me. We had a, an aside, Colton Engelbrecht, he has the highest total ever in powerlifting of around, I think, I'm going to butcher this, but I think it's like 2650. At two, I think he was 275 when he did this. So he wasn't even like at the heaviest weight class. He was 275 at 22 years old. He's been powerlifting for three years.

• 1:13:28Tim Ferriss?

  This is for the three lifts.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Alright, so he squatted 470 kilograms, 260 kilogram bench, 470 kilogram deadlift. On an eight and nine day, that's, so he squatted and deadlifted 1,036 pounds in the same meet.

• 1:13:43Tim Ferriss?

  At 22.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  At rifle at the age of 22 years old. So.

• 1:13:46Tim Ferriss?

  Good lord.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  The reason why I'm mentioning.

• 1:13:48Tim Ferriss?

  This is yet another reason you never stretch your street fights, people.

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:52Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, I doubt you'd pick on this guy, but like.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  People are getting.

• 1:13:55Tim Ferriss?

  You just never know.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  So much stronger, so much younger. It's insane. But the reason why I'm mentioning Colton is because Colton does the sumo deadlift. And some people roast him for that and they're like, it's not conventional. It's like, whatever. But when we had him on the show, I was like, Colton, why do you sumo deadlift? And he was like, it feels more natural.

• 1:14:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  And I was like, yeah, it does. It feels weird to bend down and pick up a barbell implement. In the conventional way, for, for, at least for my body type, some people with very long arms, certain like length of their femurs, some people feel better with conventional. But the sumo for me is just made more sense because you're getting down in this hip position, you're driving with your legs, it just makes more sense, in my opinion. So, nothing against conventional, nothing against any other deadlift, but the sumo. Now, when doing the sumo deadlift, I think one thing that people really need to focus on is like what their feet are doing. And I think this should be how it should be with every single lift. But when doing the sumo especially, there's a cue that people get, and people get this cue in squatting too, where you'll hear knees, push your knees outward.

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  For the squat, you push your knees out so you can have space to get in between your hips when you're squatting. Sometimes your knees are too far forward, some people with their limb lengths don't have the ability to get down to depth. So when you push your knees out, you provide room. The sumo deadlift, when people say push your knees out, when you push your knees out, you provide room for the barbell to ride up your body. But the other cue of rooting the feet into the ground, and I learned this cue from Kelly Starrett's book, Becoming a Supple Leopard, back in 2013. Have you met Kelly? Met Kelly, yeah. We've had him on the show a few times. I always mention where I've learned these things, because Kelly's awesome. But I learned that from his book. I also learned, and the reason why I keep my face relaxed when lifting and stuff, I

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  also learned that from his book, Supple Leopard. Because when he talks about my fast release, you shouldn't have a pain face. If you relax, it's going to allow yourself to relax through these movements. But anyway, that's an aside. Rooting your feet into the ground will allow you to have external rotation of the hips. I mean, we did a little bit of this earlier today, but just describe for people what that actually means. You're in a gym, doing a sumo deadlift, you have shoes on, presumably. What are you doing with your feet and legs? I think something that can help somebody understand this is using the hands, putting your hand on a table, and trying, you could actually do this with both hands, keep your fingers planted in the table, and try to see if you can rip the table apart, while keeping your fingers where they are. Like rip the table apart. Now, what do you feel when you do that?

• 1:16:23Speaker 02

  So in this case, you're sort of externally rotating your hands, even though they're not moving? Yeah. Ripping that table apart. But what do you feel when you do that with your hands? That's actually, what do you feel? What do I feel? I mean, I feel a lot of tension in my... My arms, you feel a lot of tension in your arms. What do you feel on your shoulder?

• 1:16:39Tim Ferriss?

  Shoulders have gone down and my lats are engaged. So, I mean, there's a lot going on.

• 1:16:44Speaker 02

  So, the shoulder can be compared to the hip where the hip externally rotates as you're grabbing the ground. The shoulders will have this downward rotation.

• 1:16:53Tim Ferriss?

  Right. Like as I do this, I guess, depends on, if we were doing like a push up, it might even be better right now. Our arms are extended in front of us.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Tim Ferriss?

  If we're doing a push up, what I would expect is that this eye of the elbow, the inside of the elbow that,

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:06Tim Ferriss?

  let's just call it the eye, kind of, when you bend your arm, it would be in that crook.

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:10Tim Ferriss?

  Would almost certainly rotate. I would imagine there would be some rotation in a push up position.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:17:15Tim Ferriss?

  Which would then mimic the, I guess, femur.

• 1:17:19Speaker 02

  Exactly. So, the reason why I wanted you to do that through hands is I think that can help some people understand what they should be doing with their feet.

• 1:17:24Tim Ferriss?

  You've got some meaty hands, my friend. I would not want to get slapped with those things. Jesus.

• 1:17:28Speaker 02

  Tim, Tim.

• 1:17:30Tim Ferriss?

  I'm just saying.

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  Let me, let me say this. You don't know how happy that makes me feel. Do you know why?

• 1:17:35Tim Ferriss?

  Because you've wanted to slap me and now it's not allowed?

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. Over the past, jujitsu, and we're going to come back to the foot thing, but the jujitsu is a martial art that has a lot to do with the hands, the grip. And I've noticed that my hands have gotten bigger because I purposely started doing more hand type of work this past year.

• 1:17:54Tim Ferriss?

  Like the rice bucket.

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  Like the rice bucket. I've been doing a lot of hand work because I started, because of all the gripping in the martial art, I started to feel pain in my fingers. And one thing you notice with a lot of high level black belt grapplers is their fingers are kind of mangled.

• 1:18:06Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Because of everything that happens over the years. So, I started doing rice buck work and a bunch of other things, but my hands, I'm happy you say that because my hands didn't used to be this meaty.

• 1:18:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  So, thank you.

• 1:18:15Tim Ferriss?

  You're welcome.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  It's working.

• 1:18:17Tim Ferriss?

  You're welcome.

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:18:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, if this jujitsu or YouTube thing doesn't work out, you know, you could go into one of those Russian slapping competitions.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  I would never.

• 1:18:24Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I would never.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  Not worth, not worth the TBI. They would mess me up for sure. I'm not strong enough for that. But the reason why I wanted people to do that on the table and feel that is because when a lot of people try to do this with the feet, they just grab the ground like this. And like what you were doing in the park initially, they kind of just curl their toes.

• 1:18:41Tim Ferriss?

  Like pinch, yeah.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  Like pinch, instead of pinching slightly and then ripping apart to create.

• 1:18:46Tim Ferriss?

  And ripping apart, just to be clear, is not straight out to the sides. It's really like a rotational.

• 1:18:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:53Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  And that rotation's going to allow the knees to come out for the sumo deadlift. The knees will pull out because you're getting external rotation of the hips, which will allow you room to drive the hips forward.

• 1:19:03Tim Ferriss?

  Let me ask you this, with the sumo deadlift, when you place your feet, let's just say straight ahead is 12 o'clock.

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:19:08Tim Ferriss?

  And then your toes are getting pointed out. How externally rotated are your feet to begin with? Are they as far out as you can get them and really close to the plates? Are they at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock? And then you get that type of tearing apart, external rotation?

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  Nowadays, my feet would probably be at 11 and 1.

• 1:19:33Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, alright.

• 1:19:34Speaker 02

  The reason why they're at 11 and 1 is because I have better mobility than I had in the past.

• 1:19:37Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  So when I do create that torsion, I have more hip mobility to even to create when I'm moving out.

• 1:19:43Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  Some people who don't have that hip mobility have to have their feet in a wider position so that they can create enough width.

• 1:19:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  To have their knees not be in the way of arc.

• 1:19:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Right? So that's, that's totally dependent on one's hip mobility.

• 1:19:56Tim Ferriss?

  Hip mobility.

• 1:19:56Speaker 02

  But when you get more hip mobility, when you're creating that torsion, your, your feet angle will change slightly for how comfortable you are in the position. So whatever position you have right now, there's not like, there's a golden position for the level of mobility you currently have. And as that mobility improves and as your ability to create more force improves, that position will adjust.

• 1:20:13Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm. How close to the plates are your toes?

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  My toes? Oh, no, no. Yeah, my toes aren't.

• 1:20:19Tim Ferriss?

  Like, how wide is your stance? Is it, would be another way to put it?

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  It's like 90 degrees. So, so when I say 90 degrees, I mean, my legs are out and my feet are like, or my knees are right below my femurs. So I'm not like, I don't have this, you see a lot of people were there, they almost have like this triangle angle with their feet. I have like a box. That's the structure I'm creating.

• 1:20:40Tim Ferriss?

  In the bottom position.

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  In the bottom position. Yeah. Yeah. In the bottom position, it's like boom, boom.

• 1:20:45Tim Ferriss?

  From knee to ankle is perpendicular to the knee.

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  Ankle is perpendicular.

• 1:20:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Interestingly enough, you notice like in Ed Cohn, he had this outward, like you'll notice he kind of like, his feet were closer together in his sumo deadlift.

• 1:20:56Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  And he was a crazy sumo deadlifter, but that's where he found he was able to create the most force.

• 1:21:01Tim Ferriss?

  What was his crazy record setting deadlift? Some insane number. What was it like nine, nine seventy or two twenty or something?

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  We have to put it on screen. Ed Cohn's had a lot of records.

• 1:21:12Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, he's had a lot of records. Yeah, I remember getting this book, I'm blanking on the author's name, but it was like Ed Cohn, the man, the myth, the method, which was a great book. And there was a photo, you want to talk about people who are well-built for their sport. Like you look at Michael Phelps, you're like, okay, I could swim my whole life. Like, my body doesn't look like that guy. Like, his ankles are funny. And like, he's just perfectly built for the sport, right? And there was this photo, I don't know if it was Wilt Chamberlain, or some NBA player who's like, ten foot ten, right? And he's next to Ed Cohn, who's not ten foot ten, he's like five foot five. And they put their hands together and they were the same size. And I was like, man, oh, man, you could not design from scratch a better body for this exact lift.

• 1:21:57Speaker 02

  Have you ever met Ed Cohn?

• 1:21:58Tim Ferriss?

  I don't think I have met Ed. We've had conversations before.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:03Tim Ferriss?

  But no, I don't think I've met him in person, actually.

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  Okay. Ed is a literal mutant to this day. The last time I, I saw him in person was a few years ago.

• 1:22:13Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, is it fair to say, I mean, one of the greatest powerlifters, if not the greatest of all time?

• 1:22:17Speaker 02

  Still the greatest powerlifter of all time. I would say he's still the greatest powerlifter of all time. I think he, he popularized the sport so much, he got so many people into powerlifting, he inspired so many of the greatest minds in powerlifting to this day that like, I don't think no matter what anybody else does in powerlifting, I think Ed Cohn is probably still the greatest. And then from there, it's like, well, who has the highest total in that? Like, yeah, you know what I mean? And going back to Ed's structure, first off, his hands are huge. Like, I shook his hand and his hand engulfed my hand. Right? Me being so much taller, it's like he ate my hand with his and made me feel so small. The second thing is the length of his arms.

• 1:22:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  Ed has these.

• 1:22:55Tim Ferriss?

  His ape index must be off the charts.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  He has these orangutan arms, bro, where it's like, when you look at his sumo deadlift form, it kind of makes some sense with like how, how easy.

• 1:23:04Tim Ferriss?

  He doesn't have to have the legs super wide.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  He doesn't. He doesn't, right? So one of the things about the sumo and one of the things about lifting in general is finding the best position for your anatomical leverages. Like some people, like for example, a Kelly Stewart, a lot of time he was squatting with his feet pointed straight forward, creating that torsion. But you look at his limb lengths, he could be really good for that. Some people, if they have a longer torso, sometimes that position doesn't do well for them because as they head down into the hole, their body folds. So they need, some of them need to have a much wider stance so that when they head down into the hole, they don't have this massive folding of their torso. So it's, what's one of the cool things with lifting where you'll see someone like an Olympic lifter with beautiful mechanics, but then you also really have to pay attention to the way this person is built and you have to find the best way to move that way through

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  space with your leverages.

• 1:23:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, totally. Makes me think of one of my buddy's amazing striker, used to compete at a very high level. And I mean, he is like gangly as fuck. And that's part of the problem because he would be like a foot taller or he would have like eight inches of additional reach on people. So he would just pummel the hell out of people in the same weight class. But there's certain movements, like you want that guy to like do bench press? You're going to come away with the misperception that he is weak, right? It's like, no, maybe with that particular movement, sure, it's not very well built for his dimensions. But let him throw like a power jab at your face. Like, yeah, he's well built for that.

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:28Tim Ferriss?

  You know, just different body types.

• 1:24:31Speaker 02

  Let me add this in because I think this is something that can maybe give some people something to explore when it comes to their deadlift movement. When it comes to deadlifting, the things that we think about is like the conventional deadlift, the sumo deadlift. Well, you could also attempt doing like a staggered stance deadlift. So staggered stance deadlift would mean there's one foot ahead, one foot behind. The foot behind has the heel elevated slightly, like a kickstand. Kickstand, it can be called kickstand, staggered stance deadlift. Deadlifting that way, you could use either a straight bar, you could use a trap bar. The concepts still hold true, but the reason why I have enjoyed progressing that staggered stance deadlift,

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  and I use a trap bar when I do that, is just because for me, it feels as if it relates to gait a little bit better than the standard deadlifts do. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do the standard sumo or conventional. But when I'm thinking about creating upward force, how would I jump off of the ground? When I think about that, and then I think about, okay, transferring that to a barbell, I wouldn't necessarily jump off of the ground in the stance that I'm using in sumo or conventional. I would do it in this kind of staggered kickstand stance and then pop off. If I were trying to actually create force upwards, that's how I would do it. And I think that that would be worth one's time to progress. You're not going to lift as much weight initially, but over time, you can build up some,

• 1:25:54Speaker 02

  I don't even like saying this because I don't want people to think of it in terms of numbers. I want people to think about the movement, but you can get very strong doing that. And then you're also strong in this stance that can relate to how you'll actually move yourself through space. But now you're creating force with it.

• 1:26:07Tim Ferriss?

  What are some exercises that you think, and this is such a maybe trite question, but just really incredible bang for the buck exercises? And for instance, for me, and I'm not saying I'm any paragon of exercise expertise, but the two-handed kettlebell swing is just, it seems like you get so much from that exercise, performed consistently with progressive resistance, whether that's in terms of loading through higher volume or increasing the weight. I mean, it is just remarkable how much I get out of that exercise, even once or twice a week. It's just astonishing to me continually.

• 1:26:51Tim Ferriss?

  Anything else that you would throw into that type of category?

• 1:26:58Tim Ferriss?

  That come to mind with the condition that you can get somebody to the point where they can perform them safely, reasonably quickly.

• 1:27:07Speaker 02

  I think everyone should own a sandbag because picking up a sandbag off of the ground, starting light, so you get yourself, let's say you get a 75 pound bag, you fill it up to 50 pounds, you get yourself to lifting that without any type of discomfort. And one of the reasons why I think that is so beneficial and so useful is the way that one will bend down to pick up a sandbag. Because when you bend down to pick up a barbell, it's this implement that's perfectly symmetrical. Only way that the hands are involved are when they're gripping like this, you have to get yourself in this neutral position, you hinge forward. It teaches you how to be a perfect hinge, a perfect lever.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  But whenever you lift a sandbag, every sandbag lift has its own, it's never the same because of the nature of the implement. It's this shapely thing that you have to, first off, you have this open palm grip, you have to grip around it, and then you have to organize your body to lift it safely. Anybody can lift a light sandbag safely while breathing. Over time, you increase the weight. But I think that if people learn to lift sandbags well, that will be something that will actually prepare you to lift well for life because your spine isn't in this perfect neutral position as you're doing it. There's slight curvature and you learn that it is safe to lift something with some slight rounding of the spine. Of course, with a barbell, you don't do that often unless you're doing something like

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  a Jefferson curl, which I think they're pretty solid, especially if you don't load them to a crazy extent as you're progressing it, because some people get focused on the load. By the way, what a Jefferson curl is, is it's a purposeful rounding of the spine to lift a barbell off the ground. It's actually the antithesis of, I think I'm using the word antithesis, correct? But it's the opposite of what you're taught to do when you deadlift to create a neutral spine. You're literally rounding your back to lift the barbell off the ground. It sounds like a joke, but it's to engrain in your body that my spine is okay getting to this position, lifting something. But I think a sandbag would be money for people.

• 1:29:07Tim Ferriss?

  Just for clarity, are you picking it up and then dropping it?

• 1:29:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:10Tim Ferriss?

  And then picking it up?

• 1:29:11Speaker 02

  So a base thing that you could do is literally pick it up, sit around your stomach. Bring it back down to the ground. You've got to either drop it or you can lower it back down to the ground. Then there are progressions where now you pick it up, launch it up to your shoulder, bring it down to the back to the ground. So you could drop it or you can bring it slowly back down to the ground. And then you could pick it up, throw it over your shoulder, pick it up, throw it over the opposite shoulder. It's inherently a rotational throw when you become adept with it. So there are progressions, but the base progression would be literally just, the first thing you would do is you would just do a sandbag deadlift, then you would do a lift to the stomach, then you would do a lift to the shoulder, then you could do a throw. And then there's a bunch of things you could do squats, you could do split squats, you could do Cossack squats, you could do lunges.

• 1:29:54Tim Ferriss?

  Cossack squats is another one. Typically, I've just done that with like a kind of a goblet squat type of pole on a kettlebell. But just remarkable how much you get out of that exercise as you slowly, and you know, what was wild about it to me, what a funny name, number one, is I was using it as a warm up for some acrobatic stuff that I was doing way back in the day. I was just using it as a warm up, but I noticed I was getting stronger. And so I started adding a little bit of weight, a little bit of weight. And I got to the point where I was doing Cossack squats and it's not like this is a ton of weight, but it's like with a, I don't know, 70 or 80 pound kettlebell. And again, the transfer, I was just like, wow, I wasn't even treating this as part of my workout. Just over time, because I was doing the acrobatic stuff very regularly. So I was like never doing

• 1:30:39Tim Ferriss?

  it to exhaustion, just that greasing the groove. And I was like, what the hell is going on here? It's just remarkable how much it transferred.

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  It's a money movement. So I mentioned all those movements because these are all things that you could do throughout the day with a sandbag that you keep by your desk. You could do squats, you could do some quick lunges, you could bring it up to your shoulder, you could do some quick Cossack squats, you could do a reverse. You could literally do all these movements with

• 1:31:03Tim Ferriss?

  Are you just bear hugging the Cossack when you're doing the Cossack?

• 1:31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Keep it right there. And then you go into a Cossack squat position. Yes, absolutely. And with the Cossack squat specifically, it's particularly powerful because most people, when it comes to training the adductors, they mainly do that with like the machine in the gym.

• 1:31:22Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. So adductors, guys, inside of your thighs. I mean, that's very super like Suzanne Somers. Thigh master. That's adductors.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:34Tim Ferriss?

  If you're trying to like, if you're trying to pop a ball between your knees using your adductors.

• 1:31:39Speaker 02

  There's a very shady side of the internet of women popping watermelons with with their adductors.

• 1:31:44Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's.

• 1:31:45Tim Ferriss?

  I thought I'd seen it all.

• 1:31:46Speaker 02

  You haven't until you see that.

• 1:31:48Tim Ferriss?

  This is gonna be the headline for your episode.

• 1:31:51Speaker 02

  But if you want the strength to do that, right? Kosik squats are gonna be great. There are more specific adductor movements like the Copenhagen plank.

• 1:31:58Tim Ferriss?

  You're saying most people who train their adductors are using.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  Only using one of those machines. If they ever use that machine.

• 1:32:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  Sparsely, they use that sparsely typically. And that ends up being a very weak link.

• 1:32:10Tim Ferriss?

  Just for people who might wonder, because those machines are very popular. They're usually monopolized by any, not to paint with a broad brush, like a few women are just sitting on there for like hours, it seems, working this stuff, right?

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:22Tim Ferriss?

  Why is that a weak link compared to doing something like a cosmic squat or something else?

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  You do get some tension on those tissues when you're doing a typical squat, but not an insane amount. When you're doing a sumo deadlift, you also get some tension on that area, but not as much as when you're isolating it in a bilateral fashion with a cosmic squat. Along with that, in the cosmic squat, you get more length of those tissues when you get to depth of the cosmic squat than you would.

• 1:32:46Tim Ferriss?

  I'll give another bad visual for people. So people are like, what the hell are they talking about cosmic squat? So imagine the most stereotypical, like Russian dancer, arms folded, like kicking out from side to side. And then freeze frame on the on the ground where like one leg is fully extended to one side. And he or she is basically squatting like ass to the other heel on the other side. Okay, cosmic squat.

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And one thing I find interesting about that is for a long time, I was really trying to get good at cosmic squats. And it wasn't till I was allowing myself to breathe when I got down to that position that I actually got there safely and came out.

• 1:33:27Tim Ferriss?

  What have you found most effective for improving ankle mobility, right? Cause for a lot of people, if they try to do a cosmic squat, well, do you have heel up or heel down?

• 1:33:36Speaker 02

  Heel down.

• 1:33:37Tim Ferriss?

  Heel down, okay.

• 1:33:37Speaker 02

  I have heel down.

• 1:33:38Tim Ferriss?

  So for a lot of folks, if they try to do that, they're gonna fall backwards if they don't have the ankle mobility, right? If the knee can't travel kind of over the toes.

• 1:33:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:47Tim Ferriss?

  Any thoughts on developing that?

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  I think that a great conversation for you would be Ben Patrick.

• 1:33:53Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:33:54Speaker 02

  Because, because what I'm gonna tell you.

• 1:33:56Tim Ferriss?

  Literally, and he's over to us.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  What I'm gonna tell you is, this is why I find that I've been so lucky to learn from so many people, because the only reason why I'm able to first have the level of mobility I do is because of a lot of things that I've learned from these different people. So, for example, the ankle mobility you're talking about right there, some things that helped with that were the ATG split squat that I was telling you about, which is a movement that, again, he popularized. But that front leg, I hope that when this podcast comes out, maybe there's an image of an ATG split squat that can be pulled up. So people can see.

• 1:34:24Tim Ferriss?

  For sure.

• 1:34:24Speaker 02

  That the front leg that's doing the split squat, over time, there are regressions to that movement, by the way. So, everything we've talked about, if you find that you're not getting there, regress the movement, regress the range of motion.

• 1:34:35Tim Ferriss?

  Tell me if I'm getting it roughly right. I don't, and also, I have his ATG device that is like plate loading for wrist work, extensor work, grip work, which is fantastic. What does ATG stand for?

• 1:34:48Speaker 02

  ATG, his company, stands for Athletic Truth Group.

• 1:34:53Speaker 02

  You think it stands for asterisk.

• 1:34:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, okay. Yeah, I didn't see it coming. Okay, got it. Athletic Truth Group.

• 1:34:59Speaker 02

  Athletic Truth Group.

• 1:34:59Tim Ferriss?

  All right, got it.

• 1:35:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Ben is a guy, one of the reasons why I appreciate Ben so much is because he's a very open-minded individual. Like, you'll run across so many people in these different fitness spaces, and they're so dogmatic, gung-ho about their system. And if you do this system, this is what's gonna happen when you do this. It's not good. And this is what's gonna happen when you do this. It's like, everything is their system. But the people that I tend to really appreciate are the people that, they may have some things that they do, but they can also see the strength in many other things, right? And Ben is that type of person where he, he's also somebody who continues to learn. You know, he, he has these, this, what he's done. But Ben is continuously learning and applying new things to the people that he works with and himself, and finds benefit.

• 1:35:44Speaker 02

  And it's one of those things where he's in the constant growth, rather than finding the negatives of everything that everyone's doing, right?

• 1:35:50Tim Ferriss?

  To protect his predefined fiefdom, yeah.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:53Tim Ferriss?

  So, anyway. Let me throw out something. Tell me how close this is. So, there is an exercise, of all places, that was actually given to me by a physio in Sweden, who I chanced upon. It was like, because my back has been bothering me for so long, and... Everybody meets like, oh, you gotta try my friend's blah, right? Or this person can do this, or you have to try my friend, the acupuncturist. Like, everybody's got a suggestion. God bless them, but it ends up, after a while, you become a little tone deaf to it. So I'm like, alright, look, I can talk to your Taraka reader and I can talk to your Qi Gong person. I'm just not sure it's gonna do anything. But this physio ended up working with a lot of professional fighters, that's not me, and professional soccer players. And he really knew his stuff.

• 1:36:37Tim Ferriss?

  I just lucked out, because this drunk guy had a party, he was like, you should meet my physio. I'm like, yeah, sure, I should meet your physio. And then I just had a wide open day the next day, and I was like, fuck it. Alright, sure, I'll meet your physio. And Sebastian's his name, ended up being excellent in Stockholm. And he gave me some very basic exercises, again, with the intention of remediating some of the back pain and strengthening. And one of them was elevated front foot split squats, very lightly loaded, going fully down to the bottom position where the front knee is way over the front foot toes, and basically ass is on the heel. Three second pause at the bottom, back up and doing like sets of six to eight.

• 1:37:17Speaker 02

  That's a regression for the ATG split squat. That's a regression for the flat ground ATG split squat. And to go back to what you're asking about the ankles, why is that really good for the ankles? Do you know that the position that the ankle gets into is this deep position? That you can, when you own that position, you lower it to the ground. And now, when you own that position of the ankles, you apply that to a Cossack squat, you're able to get to full depth of a Cossack. Because of where the knee, the knee is over the toe, you're in deep ankle dorsiflexion. That's how these things work, where-

• 1:37:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, dorsiflexion, just pull your toes towards your nose.

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:37:50Tim Ferriss?

  That's dorsiflexion, yeah, toes towards your knees, that's dorsiflexion.

• 1:37:53Speaker 02

  The thing is, is like, when you find that you don't have the mobility for a specific movement, there are so many ways to regress it. With a Cossack squat, you could do a Cossack squat with a wall behind you. So the wall can help guide you down unloaded wall behind cosmic squat. You can even angle the foot outwards a little bit to allow yourself a little bit more give with that knee. You could also add some heel. You can also put it on a box if you need to, and then slowly regress it down. And I want to mention the concept of regression is what got me out of knee pain is what got me out of like, pretty much all pain. But specifically, I want to mention knees because when I was in my early twenties, I had a meniscectomy, partial meniscus removal. I can't remember which knee now. I think it was my left. It's something that happened in jujitsu.

• 1:38:36Speaker 02

  I also, when I was younger, I had Ashken Slaughter and I was a soccer player. So when I got into my early twenties, like I couldn't sprint. I felt like I was probably going to have trash knees for the rest of my life. I couldn't run without pain at all. So let alone run, absolutely couldn't sprint, couldn't jump. I was doing squats and stuff and there was some pain I was having, so I was using knee sleeves. So I was pretty certain that at this point, I just need to make sure to keep them pretty strong, but like sprinting, et cetera, it's not going to be part of the system for me. That's when I came across some of Ben's stuff back in like 2019 or 2018, I think. Came across some of his stuff on Instagram, started regressing it, doing like the simplest regression. So an ATG split squat on a box, there's this pulse movement that you do where you just

• 1:39:20Speaker 02

  have this very small range of motion with the knee where you're just putting yourself in slight knee flexion, coming out pulsing it, driving a lot of blood to the knee area. And I would progress these things over time. After four or so months, I was able to get into full deep knee positions that I was never able to get into without pain before. And then when I started doing things like running, I was able to run without pain and then I started sprinting without pain, but it started with regression.

• 1:39:46Tim Ferriss?

  Hmm.

• 1:39:47Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. So the reason why I'm saying that is-

• 1:39:51Tim Ferriss?

  That was a very princess-like sneeze, which is a large man.

• 1:39:54Speaker 02

  I didn't want to let it out. If I let it out, it would be disgusting. So when you hold it in, it turns into this mousy squeal. Let's keep that in there. That's, let's keep that in there. If I had to sneeze again, I'll show you what the big one looks like, just so I can save myself. My gosh.

• 1:40:09Tim Ferriss?

  But I say this because regressions are the name of the game for all this. If you have pain doing something, there is a way to regress it and you need to own the regression before you progress. I just want to underline this because this chronic back pain has been one of the biggest challenges in my life. Cause I've always seen myself as athletic. I've always been able to like take a kicking and then get back on the horse and get back to athleticism. And this experience where this pain at such a pivotal cornerstone piece of your body is tied into like every movement, when you sleep, like there's no escaping it psychologically,

• 1:40:49Tim Ferriss?

  physically, emotionally, it has been such a difficult experience and given me so much sympathy for people in chronic pain. It's like, if you have not been in serious chronic pain, like it is impossible to understand what it's like until you're there. And I would say the one mantra of sorts that has allowed me to start digging out of that hole. And I used a different term for myself. I don't remember where I got it, but it was just like, scale it down. And it's the same idea. It's just like, okay, let's just say hypothetically, okay, I might need this surgery in the elbow. Okay, great. I can't do X number of pushups. Okay, fine. Do one tenth of X number of pushups. Okay, you can't do whatever it might be.

• 1:41:33Tim Ferriss?

  Well, barbell puts too much torque in the elbow. Okay, fine. Let's use dumbbells. But the rule is like, you can't do nothing. You have to scale it down and maybe you omit exercises, sure. But it's like, train around it, train around it, train around it. It's like, for instance, the box squat, great example. Jersey is like the alt Jersey Gregor, who I keep mentioning is like the ultimate master of regressions, to use your word, because he'll have someone like they'll do a squat and like they'll go down eight inches and he's like, that's it. And they're like, no, but I do like below parallel in the gym. And he's like, you shouldn't. Yeah, you shouldn't. And he's just like, okay, like your max depth is whatever. I'm making this number, this number up, but it's like 36 inches off the ground. And they're like, that's a joke. And he's like, that's your assignment.

• 1:42:17Tim Ferriss?

  He's really funny too, because I, at one point I was like, so you're suggesting? And he's like, no, I'm not suggesting, I am telling you. And it feels like a waste of time to start off in where he would start people. But as they develop the right mechanics and then pain free progress. And it takes like weeks, maybe even months to get back to where they think they should be. And then low and behold, they're so much stronger. They own the position, all these aches and pangs go away. So the this like, you can't do nothing, but you can scale it down or like regress it. Right?

• 1:42:54Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:42:54Tim Ferriss?

  And the other thing I'll mention, just for people who may be in a similar position to myself, where they have a lot of low back stuff. The other reason that Sebastian prescribed the front foot elevated split squat was to avoid hyperlordosis, right? Like overarching of the low back.

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:13Tim Ferriss?

  I have a lot of thoracic mobility issues, so I tend to flare out and arch. And he was like, okay, let's mitigate that by elevating the front foot.

• 1:43:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:24Tim Ferriss?

  All right. Cool. Dig it.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  I want to mention I Ben, he has an app and on that app, he puts all his stuff there for monthly payment for people. So if you guys are in Ben mentions that people can do this, so I'm going to mention this too. You could go on there, you could screenshot the movements, you could cancel. Literally, I have a program there too, in this martial arts section, and you can literally go there and you can just take it all if you want to. But the reason why I mentioned that is because all of the regressions are right there. If you're looking for a way to regress all these movements, that's all there. There's also in that school community, but just take the regressions and be patient with those regressions. Cause one of the reasons that I was held back for so long was because I thought I was better than I was. I've been playing soccer for like 16 years.

• 1:44:10Speaker 02

  I've always seen myself as an athlete. So going to do some of these things and these simpler regressions, I was just like, no, I can move on to the last chapter. No, I should be able to. And then I'd always find myself in pain. I'd always find myself moving backwards. And it wasn't until I just realized, hey, be a beginner with this. Start with the regressions, own those, and then slowly progress upward. But then I was able to make all the progress to where I am now. So it's a big shift. And I think this is the last thing I'll mention. I think one of the reasons why this is hard for some people that lift or that have already been training for a bit is because traditional lifting is kind of easy.

• 1:44:48Tim Ferriss?

  In the sense that if you get strong with the shoulder press, you just increase that weight week by week, bicep curl, increase that weight a little bit, you get this big payoff very, very quickly and you see that weight going up. But when it comes to holistic movement in some of these ranges, you'll realize that you have some weak links that you have to work on with potentially no weight. And that's not as fun as just doing the heavy shoulder press. You know what I mean?

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  Getting the payoff.

• 1:45:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I would also say it's like you can get away, at least I'll personalize it. I think this is true for a lot of people, but like, just because you can lift more weight than your friends does not mean your form is good. I don't think my form was the worst in the world, but like we were talking about like 96 when I was probably my biggest and strongest and arguably fattest, but wasn't that fat. But I was doing like 400 pound ish back squats for like a set of 10. Now, in retrospect, should I have been doing that? Probably not. And when I, you know, mentioned earlier, I was like, oh yeah, probably three, four years ago, whenever it was in that back squat workout when I hurt myself, I was probably going too low and having that change in the spinal position

• 1:45:57Tim Ferriss?

  with like a butt wink. And I think that probably contributed to it. And I'm sure there are people out there who are like, Tim Ferriss can't even do a goddamn squat. I knew it. That guy's an idiot. What I would say is, you could be right. Number one. Number two is, get video of your technique and have somebody who actually knows what they're doing, like a very high level competitor, look at that technique. And chances are, it's not as good as you think it is. Do you know what I mean? And then there comes a point where it's like, all right, I bent the paperclip so many times, boom, I have an injury. And now it's just a wake up call. It's like, all right, let's start from scaling it back, from the fundamentals, swallow my pride, take my ego down a notch, and like

• 1:46:40Tim Ferriss?

  work it back up, which is very hard to do psychologically, really tough. And it's like, there's so many parallels that I see here. It's like with Jersey. It's like, man, you have to check your ego at the door because you might walk in, he doesn't care. Like he really does. He's so salty. He's just like, you could be world champion in X, Y, and Z, and he'll be like, okay, you're gonna start with 20 pound in doubles. And you're like, What? And he's like, yeah, it's like 20 pound dumbbells. Yes. Yeah. You shouldn't be doing this with more than 20 pound dumbbells. And people are just like, what? You know, it doesn't even compute. But then with these micro progressions, as he would call them, it's, it is incredible. Like I was saying to you, uh, he had this Vietnam vet with a number of fused vertebrae

• 1:47:22Tim Ferriss?

  who had been walking around on body brace, could not bend in any direction. Got him to the point where he's doing stiff leg deadlifts with 315 off an elevated platform and continued doing that for decades. I mean, it's unreal. And similarly, and I haven't seen this because I haven't really been doing this term, you know, in your, in the notes I had for this conversation. It's not my term, but I like the term, which is microdosing movement.

• 1:47:50Tim Ferriss?

  I've only played with that with a few things like slacklining. And it is incredible what your body can end up doing with like three to five minutes a day of slackline. You do not need, in fact, one could argue you shouldn't do really long sessions. What are some other examples of microdosing movement? Because as I get older, more and more, yes, you want to be strong. Yes, I agree with Pavel, like strength is kind of the mother attribute in a lot of ways. Yes, you want to have muscle mass because of sarcopenia and all this stuff as you get older. That's all true. And fundamentally, we are evolved as bodies to move in space.

• 1:48:33Tim Ferriss?

  Like our brains are evolved to manage that interface. And I find myself hungering for more and more athletic movement. So what are some other ways to, to microdose movement that might kind of produce benefits? And you can take that however you want to take it, that are surprising to folks?

• 1:48:51Speaker 02

  I think one of the simplest things one can do is Start introducing different shapes of your spine, primarily a shape that I think many of us are scared about, which is like spinal flexion. Spinal flexion, reaching over, touching your toes with a rounded back. Exactly. But let me actually just rewind real quick because I want to mention, you know, Pavel talks about greasing the groove. I got introduced to microdosing by a friend of mine, Corey Schlesinger. I think he's like- Just to be clear, microdosing movement. Microdosing movement. Yeah. Not, not microdosing psilocybin, although that's fun, but microdosing movement. Corey is, I don't know if he's working with the Phoenix Suns now, but he was like the director

• 1:49:33Speaker 02

  of performance, I think for the Suns recently. So I know he's working with an NBA team. But he, when he talked to us about it, you know, he was having a lot of his NBA athletes. He would have them do a little bit of movement before games, a little bit of movement after games, and you'd figure out ways for them to have movement sprinkled into their day so that they always felt good. Because what happens with some athletes is like, they have to have this extensive warm-up routine to get their bodies ready. And these are athletes, by the way. So if an athlete needs this extensive warm-up routine to get ready for game day, somebody who's like sitting at a desk or just working or whatever, like the amount of prep you might need to get ready to move is far too much. The goal of microdosing movement, or greasing the groove, as Pavel puts it, is to make it so these

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  different movements just become a part of who you are and what you do. You don't need to prepare to bend your spine down into a flex pattern and pick something off the ground because you're just healthy and safe. You feel healthy and safe doing it. Now, the thing I'll also mention here is that there are many really smart people who are against some of the things like Jefferson curls, like Stu McGill doesn't like it. Stu doesn't like it. And I would agree to the sense of people who haven't regressed the movement enough. If you just rush into something like a Jefferson curl that we were just talking about, where you have deep spinal flexion, you pick up a barbell or something off the ground, that's going to cause you some issue, especially if you don't feel safe doing it.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  You're going to hold your breath, you're going to force yourself into that position, and then you'll tweak something and then you'll say this is a bad position or a bad movement. But when you learn to breathe through movement with no weight, like I was talking about, like, let's say you just, you decide that I'm going to pick that ball off the ground a few times a day, flexing my back and going down to the ground. I'm going to inhale when I go down and exhale when I go up. I'm going to make myself own this movement. Doing that with no weight initially for most people is going to feel fine. And then as you improve that, you're like, okay, can I do that with a six pound kettlebell? Can I do that with a 20 pound kettlebell? Can I do that with a 30 pound kettlebell? Like, can I organize my body to lift this safely in this position? And then you own that position because it's no longer foreign to you.

• 1:51:45Speaker 02

  Now you're no longer flexion intolerant. But when you're someone who has avoided these different ranges of motion with the spine, whether it's deflection, extension, et cetera. And then you go into a workout or you try doing some weighted rotational movement and then you tweak something. You think that these are bad movements or bad ranges of motion. But the thing is that you just didn't regress it enough and you didn't spend time with the most basic forms of those movements. So when it comes to microdosing, one of the ways to make microdosing easy for you is to make your environment serve you. This is why, and people would just, some people might just think I'm some fitness nut for this. But I keep equipment around my area, around my desk. I have a kettlebell sitting there. I have a club sitting there.

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  I have a 100 pound sandbag by my desk, by my work desk. I also have a gripper on the table so that if I'm doing something on my laptop to one side, I can hit that gripper up a little bit. I have these things just sitting around to encourage me to touch them. Because if they're not in front of me, I am not going to do them. All this hand stuff, you give me that compliment on my hands, bro? It's because I have grip equipment everywhere. I have it in my car. I have it at my podcast desk. I have it at my work desk. I have it in the kitchen. I have it everywhere.

• 1:53:01Tim Ferriss?

  I can't wait for you to, I think you already saw the video, but to take another look at the Abrahangs.

• 1:53:07Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:53:07Tim Ferriss?

  Emily Abrahanson.

• 1:53:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:08Tim Ferriss?

  Because then you could just have, I mean, you could do it off the back of like a set of stairs. That's what I do at home. But if you get like a hangboard and don't overdo the hangboard, people, that is the perfect way to blow apart your tendons and ligaments.

• 1:53:21Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:53:22Tim Ferriss?

  Take it easy. But that's something you sprinkle in so easily. I sprinkle that in.

• 1:53:28Speaker 02

  My rice bucket sits in front of my TV. So that's the thing.

• 1:53:31Tim Ferriss?

  And just for people who are wondering what the hell we're talking about, the rice bucket, imagine. In like old badly dubbed Chinese Kung Fu movies where they like shoot that like they make their hands into spears like shoot it into a bucket of rice and like turn their hands into different movements to toughen up their hands and their grip and so on. It would be a version of that. A lot of baseball players do that too.

• 1:53:50Speaker 02

  They knew what they were talking about.

• 1:53:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:53:52Speaker 02

  They knew what they were doing. A lot, a lot of the stuff isn't new. I'm not making this stuff up. People who knew this stuff for centuries because it works.

• 1:53:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:58Speaker 02

  But would I do the rice bucket if I had to like pull out the bucket of rice from my garage every single time?

• 1:54:04Tim Ferriss?

  Of course not.

• 1:54:04Speaker 02

  I'd have to keep it in the vicinity of something that I already do stuff. So that when I go by it, I'm like, I can do this for a quick minute as we're watching something and then go back. I have, for example, there's this stool called a hunkering stool. By the way, you don't need a hunkering stool. You could just have a low seat.

• 1:54:19Tim Ferriss?

  Hunkering stool?

• 1:54:20Speaker 02

  Hunkering, H U N K E R I N stool. It was amazing. This guy's name is Casey. He owns this company, Hunkering Stool. It's a low springy seat. People will see if they ever watch any of my videos, you'll see me sitting on a hunkering stool.

• 1:54:32Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I saw one of those in your videos.

• 1:54:34Speaker 02

  It's a low springy seat. So now you sit down.

• 1:54:35Tim Ferriss?

  What do you use that for?

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  You just sit down in a squat position. You sit down in a low squat position.

• 1:54:40Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:54:40Speaker 02

  Right? So I noticed you have these low mats here that like maybe people might sit on for meditation, but you have these things that will encourage you to get lower to the ground. So the sandbag, I also sit down on the sandbag as it's low to the ground and that encourages me to get down in this low position, this low squatted position to become comfortable there. So now I'm not uncomfortable getting down to the ground, which is an essential thing that we need. You know, like some of us only get down to the ground when we're doing martial arts. Some of us probably can't remember the last time we purposely went down the ground on our own volition. Maybe you fell, but can you become comfortable going down and coming up? Because now if like maybe you do fall, it's not as much of a struggle for you to figure out the puzzle of getting off the ground. It's actually not even a puzzle. You just can't.

• 1:55:24Tim Ferriss?

  Well, Kelly, you mentioned Kelly Starrett, who you and I go, go way, way back. And we actually were in Japan together at the same time and went on this amazing trip with a, with a group of guys. But on that trip, I mean, both of us, it's kind of obvious when it's pointed out, but in Japan, if you're going to traditional in spending time.

• 1:55:49Tim Ferriss?

  In those types of environments, you are getting up and down all the time. And you are sitting cross-legged and you are getting up and you're basically doing like Turkish get up light all the time. You are constantly getting from that sitting on the floor position to fully standing. And every once in a while, these are harder and harder to find, like you've got a squat toilet. And it's like, that's it. And I remember asking one of my friends when I was 15, because I'd never seen a squat toilet, it was my first time out of the US, I'm like, what the hell is this? And I went to like a baseball game and all they had was squat toilets. And I remember asking my buddy, like I was 15 also, I'm like, what do your old people do? And he just started laughing, he's like, they've been doing it forever, they have no problem. And I was like, wow.

• 1:56:34Tim Ferriss?

  Can you imagine what would happen? Like, how many ER visits and ambulances you would need if suddenly that were put in like a US stadium? Like, forget about it. But the fact of that greasing the groove, right? It's not like these 80-year-old Japanese people are doing tons of Jefferson curls and Turkish get ups, but they are sitting down, getting up, sitting down, getting up many, many times a day in a lot of cases.

• 1:56:55Speaker 02

  And even just that aspect of sitting on the ground, think about the position that the back gets in, the deep knee flexion that you're getting, and many of these people can like just comfortably sit in the SESA position without a problem. The position of the ankles, the position of the knees, all these areas when getting up and down off the ground, how healthy that is for your joints and your movement. That's why it's like, instead of thinking about all of this as like exercise, how can we build our environment? The places where we go, even if you're at a cubicle at work, can you put certain things in there that can help you, encourage you to move a little bit more? If you do that, that will make a lot of this stuff so much easier because it's less about how do we program this? And more about, let's just touch this a few times a day.

• 1:57:38Speaker 02

  After you become more comfortable sitting down in that low position a little bit more, picking up with that with the rounded back, just casually picking up that sandbag. You're not doing these things while warming up, you're just doing them, they're what you do. Then, when you want to go progress it, it's even easier, because this is just how you move. For me, it wasn't until I truly set my environment up to serve my movement ability, that I started making bigger and like just bigger leaps in my progress. Because it became less of, again, this structured workout that I have to go to the gym and do all the time, to just, this is just what I do. I can just pick stuff up. I purposefully hung up gymnastics rings so I can develop my skill of hanging once again. So I have those just hanging. The TV's right there. So I'll just do some

• 1:58:23Speaker 02

  quick pull ups and hang on it. I set up this environment. So it's almost like an environment of play. I have fun here. And I think if more of us did that, it would aid in our movement progression much faster than always having to go to a gym with four walls, fluorescent lights and get this workout in.

• 1:58:41Tim Ferriss?

  I'll bring up another person you would have a blast with if you haven't met him. I remember I got so much shit. It was funny. I got so much shit. A lot of people were interested off the bat, but I also got a lot of shit. When I did an episode on gymnastics strength training with a guy named Chris Summer, Coach Chris Summer, former coach of the National Men's Team in the US.

• 1:58:59Speaker 02

  I think I bought his program years back.

• 1:59:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, GST.

• 1:59:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:02Tim Ferriss?

  And I remember like there are a bunch of folks in various communities. I'm not going to name them, but they'd be pretty obvious. Pretty belligerent online weightlifting communities. There's a fair number. And there's like, bah, ha, ha, ha, you know, like now it's in Ferris into Pilates. Good luck with that. You know, good luck developing strength. And I'm like, let me see you do an iron cross, right? Let me see you do a planch with your feet off the ground. And then tell me that those guys or gals aren't strong. Like, let me see you do that. But the point that I was just going to make is it doesn't have

• 1:59:41Tim Ferriss?

  to be with a bunch of like ferns and chrome inside four walls. Like you can get so unbelievably strong. And this is going to be old news to a lot of people, but with calisthenics and doing if, I mean, you want to try it here. I'll give people something. They'll be like, oh, this is so stupid. I'm like, okay, try it. Do something called pike pulses. So there are a lot of ways you can strengthen your core and abdominals and so on. This one, sit down on the floor, legs out in front of you. You're sitting up. That is a pike. And so your feet are straight. Now what you're gonna do is put some strength into the toes, point them. And now what you're gonna do is reach forward on either side of your legs,

• 2:00:24Tim Ferriss?

  not as far as you can go, but pretty far. You're probably gonna be on your fingertips on either side of your legs. Now it's very simple. All you need to do is lift your legs off the ground and just pulse up, keeping your legs completely straight, quads locked, and just bring your legs off the ground, bringing your kind of knees to your chest. Good luck with that. Do a couple of sets of like 10 or 15 of those. And if it's too easy on the first one, like bring your, your hands forward like four or five inches, if you can do it and do it again. Most people will just be murdered by that. Mm hmm. And that is like, you do not need a lot of space. You could do that in the smallest apartment right next to your bed. Ah, there's so many good exercises. This is like really inspiring me also to get back. I really feel like my new chapter, I have to be careful not to be

• 2:01:07Tim Ferriss?

  too enthusiastic and hurt myself, but it's gonna be like, couple of fundamentals, like I'll probably continue to do sumo deadlift in the way that I described it, kinda ala, you know, Barry Scott, who trained Alison Felix way back in the day. That was in the four hour body stuff. But like the sumo deadlift with no eccentric, I just find it just transfers to so much. Kettlebell swings for sure. And I was very interested, people can probably find video of you doing this, but kind of pendulum. Yeah, the pendulum swing with some kettlebell juggling. Yeah, I haven't gotten to the juggling yet, but different types of swinging, rope flow to get into some new planes of movement. And then I think I'm gonna re-explore some

• 2:01:47Tim Ferriss?

  of the GST stuff because I recall doing some like basic, basic ring stuff. It's like, look, I'm not gonna win any awards here. And then doing, this is all body weight stuff. And I got so big, people thought they're like, oh my God, like how much heavy lifting you've been doing? And I was like, zero. Most of this is from also, because my upper arms, like my biceps are the biggest they've been in probably a decade. And people are just like, bro, you on gear? Like, what's going on? I was like, no, I'm just literally doing straight arm tension. Like, I'm not even doing any, any flexion. I'm not bending my arms. This is all ring work with fully locked arms. Mm hmm. That's it.

• 2:02:29Speaker 02

  It's great that you mentioned this because over the years, one thing that I try to do is I try to like, find stuff I'm interested in that I really suck at to improve at. I'm 250 pounds. So for me,

• 2:02:43Tim Ferriss?

  You are a lot bigger in person than you are. I mean, you're big on camera. And then I was just like, I saw, I was like, how am I going to find this guy? And I was like, oh, he's not hard.

• 2:02:52Tim Ferriss?

  Those quads of the size of my office. Jesus.

• 2:02:56Speaker 02

  But yo, man, like calisthenics was something that I, for me, I think is like a place that I'm not the strong, it's I'm not very, very strong at. Some of that can be attributed to my body weight. And I've been so excited at just really nailing down all of these calisthenic basics to continue to improve so that I can do more complex movements. Because, you know, one of the things that I think frustrated me with calisthenics years ago was like, these muscle ups, like, oh, I was always making excuses of my weight, but it's just, I was not strong enough with my body weight to do these things. So one of the things with calisthenics is also owning those basics. Pushups, dips, pullups, regressing the pullups if pullups are tough.

• 2:03:38Tim Ferriss?

  Also like regressing like ring turnout, pushups. Incredible.

• 2:03:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:03:43Tim Ferriss?

  Like I have all sorts of, I've had shoulder surgeries and stuff. The degree to which that has helped my shoulders. Just ring turnout, pushups.

• 2:03:51Speaker 02

  The scapular pullups, like, like the strength of the scapula, I think is something that a lot of people, as they're doing calisthenics, they don't realize is so important. And there are ways to isolate the scap and strengthen that with these movements, right?

• 2:04:04Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:04:04Speaker 02

  I realized how weak my scapula was compared to a lot of other things. Like when I would be doing pullups, yes, the scapular is involved, but like, I wasn't focusing on it, which is why a lot of progressions were elusive to me because my scapula wasn't as strong, right? So I'm very excited progressing calisthenics. And I'm more so excited for the next five years. I think that in five years, six years from now, I can be pretty elite at calisthenics. And it's going to take me that long, and I'm okay with that. But that's a ways away. But I know that chipping away at that skill is going to be one of those things that for me, when I'm 60, 70, 80, has those big, maybe 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, has those big dividends. Because one thing is when you see people who are very adept

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  with their body weight. They just have control of everything. They have their varied depth of their body weight strength. You can lift weights, but just because you're strong with a barbell or strong with weights does not mean you're strong with body weight. You know, I know many heavy people that can deadlift hundreds of pounds that struggle doing 10 pull-ups because they don't have good control of their body weight.

• 2:05:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, or just because you can lift a lot of weight in a few movements does not mean that you've bulletproofed yourself against injury.

• 2:05:14Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 2:05:14Tim Ferriss?

  Either, right?

• 2:05:15Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. And calisthenics is something that will show you those weak links with your control of your body and will help you improve that over time. And your practice of wanting to, rock climbing inherently adds the skill of calisthenics into it. So it's a two for one. I would love to do rock climbing. And I, the thing is just like, I do so much jujitsu right now that it's like, I gotta pick between rock climbing and calisthenics. Like, I'll focus on the calisthenics bit and maybe do rock climbing here and there. But that's a very good practice to develop that level of strength. Because rock climbers, man, elite ones and even non-elite rock climbers, just the way they can contort their bodies and have the strength through their grip, through their whole body. My gosh, it's another amazing practice that's awesome for longevity that

• 2:05:59Speaker 02

  if you're struggling to find something.

• 2:06:01Tim Ferriss?

  Well, that was part of side and knee injury this past ski season. I was super bummed and I was in a great location, but you know, I'm up in the mountains and the climbers are world-class. So I started going to a climbing gym with my ski instructor who is also a very good climber. Like, he sets roots and he's, he's very good, super technical. And in that gym, because we would go when I would typically want to go skiing, so let's just say in the morning, these are workdays. So the gym was not empty because this is a popular, like, competitive gym. So like, national team was there, silver medalist from the Olympics was there when we would go train. So it's amazing to watch those people, number one.

• 2:06:40Tim Ferriss?

  But secondly, what really motivated me was, yes, sure, I just love rock climbing. Because it's, along with jujitsu, it's human chess. It really, like, those two are actually very similar in a lot of ways. But what I noticed in this gym in particular was these groups of mostly women, but not always, mostly women who are like in their 60s and 70s, who are doing stuff that I could not conceive of doing. And they do this week in, week out. I saw a guy, my buddy was complaining that he couldn't go climbing because of a hip issue. And I saw this 70 year old guy with a leg brace on, climbing, and I took a photo.

• 2:07:25Speaker 02

  70?

• 2:07:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. With a full leg brace, he twisted his knee. And he's like, I'll just use one leg and two arms and like flag with one leg. And I sent a photo to my buddy who's younger than I am, right? And I was like, uh, bro, I got some bad news for you. And I was so inspired to see these people who are decades older than I am, who are doing things that I could not even approach doing right now. And I was like, I was like, okay, this is a good sport.

• 2:07:51Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:07:52Tim Ferriss?

  This is a really good sport.

• 2:07:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:54Tim Ferriss?

  Jiu Jitsu too, like if you play it smart, just like gymnastics. Like if, I can't recall Coach Summer had a quote, it was something like, "There are aggressive gymnasts and there are old gymnasts. There are no aggressive old gymnasts." It's something like that. And I was just like, yeah, let's not get too ahead of ourselves. Because, you know, the candle that burns twice as bright burns twice as fast kind of situation. What are the non-negotiable lifts? Like if we're talking about just, for lack of a better modifier, like traditional lifts, the stuff that you could do, that people could do if they walk down to a good neighborhood gym? Are there any things for you that you're like, all right, this is kind of,

• 2:08:39Tim Ferriss?

  these are the, some of the ingredients in my multivitamin? It's just like, I take the multivitamin every week. That's how it works. Couple of movements.

• 2:08:47Speaker 02

  The first one would be a sled. The reason why I say sled is because it is something that grandma can do, and it's something that the NFL linebacker can do. And it can be progressed or regressed to either level while causing probably, most likely, no issue to either. The reason why I mentioned the sled before I mentioned something like a barbell back squat or a barbell deadlift is because some people, when it comes to direct actual spinal compression, where the barbell's right here, they just can't handle forms of that compression when moving through space yet.

• 2:09:18Tim Ferriss?

  I mean, I probably shouldn't handle it, frankly, right? Like I've been doing back squats, but there's definitely part of me that's like,

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  Homie, this is not a good idea. Yeah, this is the thing, though. I think there are many forms of squatting one can do. Like, we talked about sandbag squats. That's not actually loaded. That actually feels really good, right? Because the weights in front of you are holding it. They feel safe. They feel good. They can be progressed. But the sled is something that you can load that thing up, and if it doesn't move, you just don't have the ability to produce the force to push or pull it through space. I wish everyone would be able to work with a sled because it's so safe and has such a huge ability to be progressed or regressed to any level, safely, for literally everyone. That's why I'm starting there. Louis Simmons was someone who, he was the owner of West Side Bar, but he passed. Legendary.

• 2:10:08Speaker 02

  Louis is the one who got Mark, and Mark introduced the sled to me, and it's just like, the sled is powerful. So unfortunately, it's hard for some people to have that at home. I have a, I have a torque sled at my house. It's this tank sled that you can wheel around. So the torque sled is not on skids? It's on wheels with like mechanical resistance? Yes. Yeah. They came out with a new one that I have. I forgot its model, but it's one that you can literally swivel around. So you've seen the tanks where you have to push it, then you have to get to the other side and push. This one, you can push, swivel and turn and push. It looks like a little Batmobile. It's pretty sick. Does that allow you to pull as well or only push? Allows you to pull as well. You can hook a cable to it, and then you could also

• 2:10:52Speaker 02

  push and pull it. It has magnetic resistance, so you can increase the resistance so that the harder you push, the more resistance it gives you. So it can build to any level of resistance. I have my mom, who's 67. I have her come to my place so that she can do the sled multiple times a week. That's why I have her come, because it's something she can do and progress without pain. If people can just get themselves to a place that has a sled, it's a full body movement from the feet to the hands. What does a sled workout look like? Or where does it integrate into a workout? A sled can be a very meaty part of your workout if you, if you learn to like it. The reason why I say learn to like that XL says so much.

• 2:11:34Speaker 02

  The reason I say-

• 2:11:34Tim Ferriss?

  If you like swallowing broken glass, I have a piece of equipment for you.

• 2:11:39Speaker 02

  This thing, this sled could be a good first two, three minutes to get the knees warm when you're moving forward and backwards. Or it could be a very metabolically taxing, strength building workout that you can do for 20 minutes to get your heart rate up, while also increasing your ability to produce force. So that's why I say like, when you're pushing a sled, your heart rate will spike, your whole body will go on fire because you're starting from your feet to produce force forward and pulling backwards. So it'll spike the heart rate, but everything will start to get sore. Your feet, your glutes especially, when you're learning how to stack your body against that weight, like you'll see it. And people who are new on the sled, some of them aren't familiar with getting their body in the right position to produce force forward.

• 2:12:23Tim Ferriss?

  They're too upright?

• 2:12:24Speaker 02

  The system's very open, like so upright. You mentioned, right? So some people, they'll start pushing a sled, their ribs will be in this flared forward position, their pelvis won't be in a neutral position, it'll be like tilted back and they'll try pushing, they can't produce much force.

• 2:12:37Tim Ferriss?

  Just to paint a picture for folks, if you imagine a sled, alright, so it's this, it's a sled, like a toboggan with weights on top of it. But what you're holding on to, imagine you have like two subway poles in front of you that are like, I don't know, 18 inches apart, 24 inches apart, those are vertical, you're holding on to those, one with your left hand, one with your right hand, and then you're pushing that.

• 2:12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:59Tim Ferriss?

  And so we're talking about like the body position, because this is gonna be one of my follow-up questions, is like, what is your preferred position for pushing a sled?

• 2:13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:07Tim Ferriss?

  Like, are you bent 90 degrees at the hips, staring at the ground with your head in line with your arms as if you were doing like an overhead press? Is it, I don't know, like 20 degrees off of parallel to the ground with the upper body? Like, what does it look like? Because I've wondered about this, because I got a sled based on, actually, I think it's Mark Bell, who I owe, thanks for this, a very, early, early, early, like Stone Age version of something like the Torque sled.

• 2:13:33Speaker 02

  Was it from Torque or was it another?

• 2:13:34Tim Ferriss?

  I think it was another company, it was like Xpro, X P R O, or something like that, I can't recall, sorry guys that I'm butchering it. But the challenge with that for me always was, was like, God, I love this like hip extension and like glute engagement, and if I'm not careful, I feel my low back. So that's what I need to account for. Like, I would love to get back into sled, but-

• 2:13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:00Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to hear your thoughts on just like avoiding probably too much flaring and like pointing my titties at the ceiling. It's an exaggeration. We get the idea, guys. If you're like, kind of arching your back unnecessarily and simplification. So what would your prescription be?

• 2:14:16Speaker 02

  Level one for the sled would be learning how to create a neutral system when pushing the sled through space. So you're inherently going to come forward a little bit. You're not going to be vertical when pushing. You're going to be leaning forward a little bit, but you need to make sure that your rib cage is over your hips. So it's like two bowls pouring into each other. When we were mentioning this open system flared, I know some people aren't watching the podcast.

• 2:14:37Tim Ferriss?

  Imagine if you had a foam roller, you put a foam roller right below your shoulder blades, and then you basically bent your upper back to like bring your head closer to the ground.

• 2:14:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:14:47Tim Ferriss?

  Like that would be flaring, right?

• 2:14:49Speaker 02

  So you cannot produce a lot of force when you have this flared system.

• 2:14:53Tim Ferriss?

  It's super common, by the way. People who think they don't do this, take videos of yourself doing very varied exercises. It is so common.

• 2:15:02Speaker 02

  Yes, it's extremely common. Another issue is maybe having, this is a little bit less common, but too much flexion, right? So too much bending when trying to push, right? You want to be in a neutral position, a strong neutral position where your rib cage is right above your hips.

• 2:15:15Tim Ferriss?

  So can you explain that to me? Because rib cage over my hips makes me think that I need to be upright.

• 2:15:20Speaker 02

  All you want to think about is like, for example, the neutral position that we think about when we're squatting down, that rib position, let's now angle the body forward while maintaining that rib position and pushing the sled.

• 2:15:30Tim Ferriss?

  Got it.

• 2:15:30Speaker 02

  That's, that's all it is. Okay, right? That's going to be the, the position that allows us to be able to produce the most force while moving forward. Let me also mention this. This is the level one pushing and pulling position that we want our rib cage in. Because for me, when I want people to progress what they do with the sled, it's a very powerful tool to allow you to push and pull in different spinal positions. So you start off by pushing and pulling the sled with a neutral spine. Then you can start to push and pull the sled laterally. So like sled is here, you're here, you're pushing the sled laterally, you're pulling the sled laterally while maintaining

• 2:16:13Speaker 02

  a fairly neutral spine. But then over time, the strength that you can get the sled is that when you push the sled, you can push with more spinal flexion when you become more comfortable. So you can learn to produce force with spinal flexion. And then you can learn to, when you're pulling the sled, You can learn to almost Jefferson curl pull the sled.

• 2:16:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:33Speaker 02

  In deep spinal flexion. You don't start here, but when you become comfortable and you've been doing this with very lightweight initially, you can be comfortable pulling this load with a deep spinal flexion. That's later on. And that's for me where the sled has become super powerful because what my goal is for myself and what I've done is I became very strong pushing and pulling a sled with a neutral spine. Then I pushed and pulled with spinal extension, purposefully putting myself in this position while pulling and pushing. I pushed and pulled in deep spinal flexion.

• 2:17:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:08Speaker 02

  Right? So that I could become very strong in this spinal position. I push and pull in deep lateral flexion. So I'll literally push the sled here with lateral flexion of the spine.

• 2:17:19Tim Ferriss?

  That's so scary for me to watch.

• 2:17:20Speaker 02

  I'll pull a sled here with deep lateral flexion on the other side so that I can strengthen all of the positions of my spine with this implement. This isn't something you're able to do with a barbell. You could do spinal flexion, Jefferson curl stuff. You could do some lateral stuff, but the sled allows you to produce force on an object forward, backward and to the side with that intent of movement.

• 2:17:43Tim Ferriss?

  When you are pulling, how are you pulling? And this sounds dumb, but do you have ropes attached to the sled? Like with the torque sled?

• 2:17:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:17:52Tim Ferriss?

  How are you pulling it?

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  So the torque sled, there's two ways that I'm pulling. When I want to get into deep flexion, I have this thing. It's something that Mark made. It's called a shake strap. So it's this strap that you're able to, it's kind of like a cable attachment that you can put on a machine, but you can also put the sled. I loop my hands through it, right? So my hands are here and then I'll let my back bend and I'll start walking backwards in deep spinal flexion with that pulling me. There's a video of this.

• 2:18:19Tim Ferriss?

  I can imagine like you reach through a hole and then grab it and it's sort of.

• 2:18:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's right there.

• 2:18:24Tim Ferriss?

  Wrapped around the wrist.

• 2:18:26Speaker 02

  And literally when I'm going backwards, I'm in this position while I'm moving backwards.

• 2:18:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:30Speaker 02

  I'm in this deep spinal flexion.

• 2:18:32Tim Ferriss?

  What about like off the rack?

• 2:18:35Speaker 02

  White belt version, right? Neutral spine. Neutral spine, right, but are you using the? You can use either the sled attachment, that whatever sled you're using, or you can, you, most sleds have a, something that you can hook on to. And then you could place that attachment and you can still push and pull with a neutral spine. I got it. You, you. What is that, what does Mark call that? It's, it's called a shake strap. Shake strap. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called a shake strap. And he sells that somewhere? Yeah. Presumably? Yeah, everything, everything that I've talked about, I put it all in a place called the strongerhuman.store. It's a website, so all this equipment is there. But you can also find this at his website, which I believe is markbelslingshot.com. So for the sandbags and everything, I've mentioned ropes, it's at the strongerhuman.store.

• 2:19:17Speaker 02

  I was in the middle of nowhere, Italy, and I went to this gym, this tiny gym, and there was a slingshot there. And I took a photo and I sent it to Mark. Those things are everywhere. They're everywhere. Like, that's, that's one of the cool things about that. Like, you'll see them in the most random gyms. But when it comes to that, the basic version of the sled, that mom and dad can do, older people, younger people, everyone can do. Push and pull with a neutral spine and learn how to produce force. Slowly increase the load. When you feel comfortable, start introducing a little bit of play in your spine. But when you introduce this play in your spine, don't move the spine out of that position when pushing and pulling. Yeah, and probably drop the load. And drop the, absolutely drop the load. It needs to be light.

• 2:19:59Speaker 02

  But let's say, for example, you start exploring with a little bit of spinal flexion when pulling the sled. You get into that spinal flexion, the sled is really light, you start pulling backwards, you're breathing, you're not holding your breath. Your body learns, hey, this is actually a good position for us to produce a little bit of force in. We're strong here, right? Versus when most people get in that position, there's a breath hold, it feels unsafe, something gets pulled. So for me now, the only reason I was able to progress this was because I worked on those regressions. And when a lot of trainers maybe see some of this, they're like, that's unsafe. You can't be, just wait a few years, you're gonna blow your back out. Like, no, I'm not gonna hurt myself because my body knows that this is a good resilient position to be in. I'm not afraid of this position.

• 2:20:44Tim Ferriss?

  So that is definitely key to keep in mind if you've slowly conditioned yourself to be safe in those positions. There's also just a lot of dogmatic, like never do this nonsense that has no backing. It's like the number of classes I've been in where they're like, don't lock your knees, don't lock your arms. There are these posters that Coach Chris Sauer pointed me to. It's a photo of this Chinese gymnast beast in a Maltese cross. If you want to know what that is, go check that out. And it just says underneath, lock your elbows. And it's like, yeah, if you're not dumb about it, like our body, we have this full range of movement for a reason. And look, if you're hypermobile and this and

• 2:21:29Tim Ferriss?

  that, take it into account.

• 2:21:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:21:31Tim Ferriss?

  But also, it's like, you're allowed to ask questions about the rules. Make sure you understand why the rules exist. And if the person can't explain it, like, hmm, interesting. Well, at least I cross examine it. One topic that you want to make sure we touched upon is soft tissue work. This is a topic near and dear to my heart. So take it away. Where should we start?

• 2:21:52Speaker 02

  Again, so many things. I've met Kelly Starrett maybe three times. You know what I mean? I think he's been on the show twice and

• 2:21:58Tim Ferriss?

  Can I set the stage for people have no idea who this is?

• 2:22:00Speaker 02

  Set the stage for Mr. Starrett.

• 2:22:02Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So Kelly Starrett, famous for becoming the supple leopard, which by the way, I'm not sure if he's ever shown this photo. There's a photograph of him in the gym that he started with his wife, which is him in a leopard print bathrobe, pulling a Zoolander. Not sure if that relates to the title of the book. But the point is, high level PT performance coach, works with the highest levels of military, highest levels of athletics. And also, this is important to me at least, is a practitioner. He walks the walk. I think for his, I think I'm getting this right, for his 40th birthday, and this is a large man. He's a big boy.

• 2:22:44Speaker 02

  He is.

• 2:22:44Tim Ferriss?

  He's got to be 230, 240, 250, who knows, in that range.

• 2:22:49Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:22:49Tim Ferriss?

  Thighs is big around as this table.

• 2:22:52Speaker 02

  He is going crazy if he's listening to you say this right now.

• 2:22:54Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, oh, yeah. No, I'm just gonna keep laying it out thick. Like, his legs are ridiculously large. He is a very strong man. And for his 40th, though, because you would look at him, you'd be like, okay, that's a meat cube. I'm sure he's very strong in a couple of lifts. However, for his 40th, I think it was

• 2:23:12Tim Ferriss?

  He wanted to power clean some ungodly number and he can't really use one of his wrists. So he catches the barbell in this like half salute with one arm. He catches it on the shoulders. So there's that. So on his birthday, he wanted to do that. He wanted to, I believe it was run an ultra marathon and not just any ultra, but the quad dipsy, which is a killer, like a widow maker. You guys can look it up. It's in Northern California and do a standing backflip. So it's like you would look at him, you wouldn't assume all of these things are possible. And yet there you have Kelly Starrett. So that is.

• 2:23:47Speaker 02

  He did the backflip?

• 2:23:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:49Speaker 02

  Yo.

• 2:23:50Tim Ferriss?

  And also formerly incredibly high level, world-class kayaker. So this is an athlete who now helps other athletes and many more non-athletes in addition to that. So I took us on a bit of a sidebar, but you were saying Kelly.

• 2:24:09Speaker 02

  I think everyone should own his book, I'm Becoming a Supple Leopard. Because there's so many concepts, I bought that book in 2013. And so many concepts are things that I've continued to like build my knowledge base on. That have helped so much. For one thing from that book that was just a small mention, but went a very long way for me was keeping a relaxed face when doing myofascial release or soft tissue work. And when you're doing soft tissue work, and we can just use an example, if you're on top of a foam roller or you're using a hard med ball, Kelly has his harder products, like his supernova product. It's very hard and you roll on top of it. It can hurt because you're now rolling your tissues on top of this hard piece of equipment. The instinctual thing to do was like.

• 2:24:54Tim Ferriss?

  Grimace and make faces.

• 2:24:56Speaker 02

  And what happens, like even when I did that instinctively, I tightened up right here. And those tissues, they bind up to try to keep you safe. You hold your breath, you tighten your face. You're not able to get as deep into the tissues that you're trying to work and help become more supple. So Kelly's advice is like, get rid of your pain face. Stop, right? Because inherently, if you just try to get this loose, get this relaxed, you'll start to probably breathe, you'll start to get deeper in those tissues. The soft tissue work will work better. That's the goal of that.

• 2:25:25Tim Ferriss?

  Why is the soft tissue work important?

• 2:25:27Speaker 02

  The soft tissue work is important because. What I've found is that when you have certain tissues that are too tense, earlier in our conversation, we were talking about not holding the breath so that you're not holding on to too much tension. But what tends to happen for many of us is we have different areas of our body that hold more tension than others. And what soft tissue or self mile fast really, that really does is it helps you search for areas like you're tacking down certain tissues. That feels good. That feels good. Ooh, that feels gummy. You're doing work on that, whether it's with a med ball or a body lever, which is the leverage tool I showed you. And when you're able to breathe and work through those areas, what you'll find is when you again, work through that and it's not as painful, you go and you move again, you might have extra range of motion.

• 2:26:12Speaker 02

  You might have less joint pain and a joint that's lower or high of the area that you were just working. And a goal of this is to have that tissue state that you create after doing soft tissue work, have that be your default. That's the goal.

• 2:26:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, let me mention just a few things here, too. One is gonna sound super bougie, but I'll say it anyway. Even when I was driving around in my POS hand me down minivan and making next to nothing out of college, body work, and again, like scale it down. If I had to go drive into the most dangerous part of Santa Fe to the most sketchiest massage place, just to pay for like a 30 minute massage, I couldn't afford anything, like I would do that. So like body work and soft tissue work is something that has just been a non-negotiable for me forever. And it doesn't fix everything. It's not a panacea, but just to, to get into the like microdosing movement, like you can

• 2:27:10Tim Ferriss?

  also like microdose massage in terms of like self soft tissue treatment. So before bed, pretty much whenever I'm at home, certainly before bed, I always roll.

• 2:27:21Tim Ferriss?

  And that is not just to work on the tissues. It's also to down regulate. And I'm not sure if there's any science to back this, but it feels like it helps me shift into more parasympathetic state. House with sleep. And I literally, it's five minutes. I would say probably no more typically lower body, not a lot of upper body stuff. But as a result of that tiny, tiny continual dosing, it's like when I do get body work, it's very common. They're like, wow, you're like, your muscles are very easy to work with. Like, what is the story here? And it's like, yeah, it's just flossing. Right. It's the daily practice of doing that soft tissue work. I haven't used it yet, but I'm excited to use.

• 2:28:06Tim Ferriss?

  You know, the person who owns this product. So this is maybe in quotation marks, just called the nutcracker. Cause I think of a nutcracker. What is it called? The body lever.

• 2:28:12Speaker 02

  The body lever.

• 2:28:13Tim Ferriss?

  The body lever. It looks like a giant nutcracker that you can like, with your arms used to compress your leg or your abdomen, or you could brace it against a leg and use it to like, benevolently crush your arm to do forearm stuff. I mean, it looks very, very flexible. Rock climbers have used something. I think they probably have rebranded it now called the arm aid, just specifically for the forearm stuff.

• 2:28:36Speaker 02

  I think there's a company, there's a maybe Rogue. They had this thing that you could open up and clamp down on like your legs and arms. Like, yeah, these, yeah.

• 2:28:45Tim Ferriss?

  Very, very similar idea. So I'm looking forward to using that. I remember I saw you, maybe it was in the same video, but you were in a sauna.

• 2:28:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:53Tim Ferriss?

  With a proper Banya hat on with the nutcracker on your leg. And I was like, ooh, I want one of those. And I actually took a screenshot and sent it small world to Kelly Starrett. And I was like, Starrett, where do I get one of these nutcrackers? And lo and behold, full circle. And now I shall have my nutcracker.

• 2:29:11Speaker 02

  It's here today.

• 2:29:12Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:13Tim Ferriss?

  Amazing. All right. Look at this. Christmas comes early. What other types of, because when people think soft tissue, like there are right and wrong ways to do this, right? Not everything delivers the kind of benefits one might hope. So for me, I mean, this is very 101. But it's like, if I find an area as I'm rolling out my IT band or like my vastus lateralis on the outside of the quad tends to be get very, very tight. And if I find that like gummy painful spot, it's like, okay. You don't just gloss over that, like, let's sit on that for a while. Also, using vibration, like, even like, uh, now they have Theraguns and stuff. I used to use a Hitachi Magic Lawn for this. Funny enough.

• 2:29:54Speaker 02

  Wait, what?

• 2:29:54Tim Ferriss?

  People know. Popular lesbians.

• 2:29:58Speaker 02

  You really? Oh, bro.

• 2:30:03Speaker 02

  Okay, I can see that working.

• 2:30:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, multipurpose, you know?

• 2:30:10Tim Ferriss?

  But using percussion devices for sure.

• 2:30:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:14Tim Ferriss?

  Also, on, uh, when I've located through foam rolling, like, that painful spot, going to it with a Theragun or something like it. Million different devices you can choose from. Any other particular types of soft tissue work that you like to do?

• 2:30:28Speaker 02

  Let's just start, like, with probably some of the easiest that you can manage. People like gua sha. You can get yourself a gua sha tool. You could pull out a butter knife.

• 2:30:36Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:36Speaker 02

  Right? You could pull out a butter knife, lotion up an area that you want to work. Like, let's say that you are do a lot of gripping and your forearms are tight. Pull that out, look at the area lotioned up, and then start to work those areas. Concepts when doing soft tissue work with any implement is, number one, you have to breathe. The thing that people, I think, makes it hard for people, makes them not want to do it, is they do it. They feel tension in a certain area. They hold their breath. They tense up. It doesn't loosen up because they're too tense. And it's a bad experience, so they don't come back and do it.

• 2:31:08Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:09Speaker 02

  So, just like we were talking about how when you're doing exercise, you need to regress it to your pain-free level.

• 2:31:15Tim Ferriss?

  Just gonna say the same thing.

• 2:31:15Speaker 02

  Right? It's not that you regress your soft tissue work to a pain-free level. But you regress it to a, a level that you can breathe and try to relax while dealing with the pressure you're putting on yourself. So if you're putting so much pressure that you just have to go like that, you would decrease the pressure. You're not ready, dog.

• 2:31:33Tim Ferriss?

  Which is also true with manual therapy, if you have somebody working on you, right? Like, if you're bracing or holding your breath or making a pain face. It's too much pressure.

• 2:31:42Speaker 02

  Absolutely, way too much pressure. So that's something that can help you actually make progress with the practice because if you can keep that as your north star, try to relax my face, make sure I'm breathing, and put in as much pressure I can manage if I'm keeping these two things in line, you can progressively overload the amount of pressure you place on your tissues.

• 2:32:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I mean, just to, I'll pull something out. This is from, I can't remember who told me this, but it's from Thai massage. I mean, who knows if this is originally from classic Thai massage, but a very, very, very good Thai massage therapist, which is an incredible art form, incredible, said to me, like, there's no such thing as too deep, only too fast. You can get really deep with a lot of pressure, you just can't get there too quickly. And you can apply that to self-massage. Also, like, there's a guy, Jason Neemer, co-creator of something called AcroYoga, amazing Thai massage therapist also. And he'll just use his forearm and his elbow on his own, like, arms, on his own legs. You don't necessarily need a whole magician's kit full of tools. You can also just use your forearms.

• 2:32:46Speaker 02

  Exactly. Tennis ball at home. I think some tissues that people really leave out of the mix are their feet, especially the bottoms of their feet.

• 2:32:54Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I was just gonna say, this, like, little, looks like a tennis ball called Rubz, R-U-B-Z, but it's got little, little nubs on it.

• 2:33:02Speaker 02

  Super hard, or is it soft?

• 2:33:04Tim Ferriss?

  It's pretty hard.

• 2:33:04Speaker 02

  Super hard?

• 2:33:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it's pretty hard. But just, I will travel with it. And it's like, the amount of relief you get systemically from rubbing out your feet. I think, you know, I picked that up from is Ed Kohn, actually.

• 2:33:17Speaker 02

  Okay, okay.

• 2:33:18Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah. He talked about, like, decompression, a certain type of hanging. He has a very particular device. And then I'm pretty sure he talked about rubbing out the feet, because he said it helped with his kneepad. And I was like, huh, I think I'm gonna try that.

• 2:33:28Speaker 02

  I'm really happy you mentioned that about Ed, because when it comes to soft tissue, there are many people within The sphere of fitness, especially on the evidence-based side of fitness, that when people talk about soft tissue work, the only thing, the only rebuttal they have is like, well, there's really no research to back that up, and it's probably placebo, and it feels good, go ahead and do it. But there's nothing to really prove it works.

• 2:33:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:52Speaker 02

  And the frustrating thing about not just that, but many aspects of evidence-based fitness is that there's a waiting game to wait for a paper to tell you something works that's probably been done for centuries.

• 2:34:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:06Speaker 02

  In many different cultures for a long time. Massage and soft tissue work has been a panacea for so many different groups of people around the globe. But we have people in exercise science that want to discount it because they don't have a paper that proves this efficacy. So that's why, like, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying evidence-based work isn't helpful, but don't allow evidence-based studies to block you off from trying something that might just be really beneficial for you. That's all.

• 2:34:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, let me add something to that because this is definitely a nerve for me as well. It's like, all right, look, science is amazing. Okay, scientific method is a structured way of not fooling ourselves. Incredible tool for humankind. I mean, indispensable. And Western medicine, I'm going to say, and this is going to be controversial, like, the most effective healing system ever devised on the planet, period, full stop. Like, if you look at like infant mortality and reductions in infant mortality, the advent of antibiotics. I mean, this is an incredible system of healing, as are many others. All of that said, as someone who has been involved with supporting early-stage science now for more than a decade, science is fucking expensive and it's really slow.

• 2:35:24Tim Ferriss?

  And what that means is also, right, within the realm of exercise science, it's like you don't want to fool yourself. So you should be scientifically literate. Yes, you should pay attention to the literature if you can. Yes. By the way, that takes some training to get to the point where you can actually read something like that properly. However, there are so many incentives that will prevent most studies from ever getting done that you could be waiting forever. And especially in the realm of exercise science, where it's like, you're not experimenting with a speculative type of invasive brain surgery in some far-flung like third world country. It's like, no, try some soft tissue work. Who cares? Like, the downside risk is so minimal. Yeah.

• 2:36:09Tim Ferriss?

  See how you feel, like, learn to trust your body again, which is another reason why I more and more so, and it's not valuing it more so, but increasingly value movement because it teaches you to get reacquainted with the subtleties of feeling your body, which autopilot linear movements in the gym do not automatically do. And then you can become a better gauge. And look, this isn't to like pat myself on the back, but like, as you do more of that, it's like when we were doing the rope stuff this morning and I was like, oh, I feel like I'm flaring. I feel like I got a little too high on that right foot. And it's like, you develop these sensitivities. And then when you have, and look, I'm not, again, I'm not Bershnikov, or I'm not a surgeon with the most delicate

• 2:36:54Tim Ferriss?

  hands in the world, can't read Braille. But as you develop that, you can then trust your body. It's like, all right, you'll begin to pick up patterns. And also, I'm like, I think I had too many exogenous ketones, but lots of personality. I'll keep going for a second. The other thing, and this came up through my archery in the last, like, six months. So I was training with amazing guy, Jake Kaminsky, two-time silver medalist, one of the most successful archers the US has produced in the last 30, maybe 50 years. And he, like me, takes meticulous training notes, including soft tissue. So that if he had a problem, he's like, mm, this rib is slightly out, which is a really common issue with archery. He could be like, no, it's not the last workout. He's like, he

• 2:37:39Tim Ferriss?

  identified through patterning because he shot a million plus arrows easily. He would be like, he would look back and he's like, it's usually five or six workouts back. And I could identify either what helped me or what the problem was. And similarly, it's like just experiment, take good notes, try not to fool yourself, and keep what works, ditch what doesn't. But man, the soft tissue stuff, it's so incredibly helpful. And I wanted to add also, just because I mentioned the pre-bed, not to totally hijack this, but so it goes. You mentioned rope flow prior to bed, if I'm not misremembering. That was not on mic, but do you do rope before bed?

• 2:38:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll do like some nights, it's maybe three or five minutes. Some nights, it'll be just like flowing for 20 minutes outside my house, just like relaxing.

• 2:38:30Tim Ferriss?

  And you were saying that also, it helps to alleviate the morning stiffness the next day?

• 2:38:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, okay, I'll come back to the soft tissue thing in a second, but Mark and I were having a conversation early last year, and we were like, man, what can help us just like get rid of waking up in the morning, just feeling that morning stiffness? Not morning, you know, wood, morning, just body stiffness.

• 2:38:52Tim Ferriss?

  Don't want to fix that.

• 2:38:53Speaker 02

  Right? Don't want to fix that. You want that. That's a good sign of hormonal health. But the general morning stiffness, where you just kind of like get your body, you know, you gotta wring out your body a little bit. So we thought, I thought about that for a while, and then I just started doing rope flow before bed. And the first night I did rope flow before bed, which wasn't something I usually did. I usually just like, you know, I'd come home, work, maybe take a walk, go to bed, wake up, do rope flow, feel amazing. Did rope flow before bed, woke up the next morning, it was just like, ha, like, really, I just felt like I didn't need to, my body was already lubricated. That's what I felt like. And I was like, okay, maybe this is just a one night thing. But I then noticed

• 2:39:33Speaker 02

  that the nights that I didn't do some rope, and all it is, is rotating before bed. Let's just call it that. Like, if you have something that you can get some natural rotation in before bed, cool, if you have the rope practice, cool. But getting that natural spinal rotation in before bed will help you feel better when you wake up in the morning, and you won't feel, your back will not feel as stiff. It's huge. So, the reason why I know it works is because I have nights where I don't do it. And I've also told many people in the Stronger Human community to try that and get, let me know what they feel. And everyone that does it wakes up feeling better in the morning. So like, I know that it's one of those practices that like, if you have a practice where you do some soft tissue work, don't stop the practices you do, just add in like three minutes.

• 2:40:17Speaker 02

  Do two to five minutes before you go to bed, two to five minutes.

• 2:40:20Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, scale it down, right? If you're like, I don't have 10 minutes, like, oh, you do one minute. Everything is like, oh, I can't do one minute? It's fine. Like do three passes on the IT bed on each leg on a foam roller. Like, come on. And it's like, there will be a point at which you have no excuse. And I'll add one more thing, which I guess I accidentally omitted from my mind as soft tissue work, but it's definitely soft tissue work. And this is something that has stuck for me big time. And I've passed on to a lot of friends also to give credit where credit is due. So my mid back was bothering me. It's I, I had this really old injury and my mid back was really spasmed. And I was doing hand balancing practices a hundred years ago with a guy named Andriy Bondarenko.

• 2:41:03Tim Ferriss?

  And I didn't train with him much. I mean, the guy is a phenom. He is a, or at least at the time was a top Cirque du Soleil performer, famous for one armed hand balancing, like one arm handstands. He's not a big guy, right? Who knows? He probably weighs 130 pounds, maybe 140. Maybe these of people I've met personally, the most incredible combination of strength and mobility that I've ever seen. And

• 2:41:30Speaker 02

  What's his name? Well, I'll get his name after I need to write that down.

• 2:41:32Tim Ferriss?

  Andri, A N D R I I, Bondarenko. And I think his, his Instagram is just Andriy Bondarenko. Excellent teacher. And we did some hand balancing stuff and I was explaining my back issues and he's like, oh, you need to get one of these mats. And the mat was, I ended up getting the Nyoya acupressure mat and

• 2:41:54Speaker 02

  Is this over the Shakti?

• 2:41:56Tim Ferriss?

  It might be the same thing. There are a bunch of imitators too. There's one called Bed of Nails. The basic idea is it's like a thick towel with plastic golf cleats covering it. And then there's one for the neck and it fucking hurts. And even to this day, I've done it hundreds of times. Like if you're a little sensitive, especially if the tissue's inflamed, it hurts. If you stick with it past like three or four minutes, then your body chills out. And I typically stay on 10 minutes. The reason Andre introduced it to me is his coach, when he used to do team acrobatic competitions, which is a big thing in like Eastern Europe and other parts of the world, where you have, it's almost like if you could imagine like cheerleading plus, plus, plus, plus, plus,

• 2:42:41Tim Ferriss?

  where you'd also have like male only teams, female only teams, where you'd have like a flyer, someone who's doing crazy acrobatics, that would be Andre, who would get shot into the air with guys who would make like a, kind of they call it a basket with the hands. People can look this up. All of those guys would just be beaten to hell and the coach would make all of them lay on one of these 45, for 45 minutes after every practice. And I started using it and I was like, okay, I have no idea how this works. All I know is man, does this work? And before bed, especially with a lot of my back issues, that is non-negotiable. And I'll give one trick for folks also, if you have low back issues specifically, traveling with the whole kit and caboodle is kind of a pain in the ass.

• 2:43:22Tim Ferriss?

  Just take the neck attachment, travel with that, that'll fit easily into most suitcases. And then you can like lay on that for your low back on like carpet in the hotel or whatever, 10 minutes before you go to bed, resolves like 50% of my low back issues for sleep. It's incredible.

• 2:43:40Speaker 02

  So the cool thing about this is like, it's really simple as to why this all works. Blood flow. You bring pressure to an area, you drive blood and nutrients to that area after pressure is relieved. So when you have that on your back, you have that on your whole back, because I actually have the same thing at home. I have it in a box, I need to bring it back out, because I did it for a while and I was like, that's cool, I like it, helps me relax, but I didn't keep it. So I'm going to bring that back now that you mentioned it. But all these things, they're, they're driving a bunch of blood to that area, which now when you get up, you feel relief in those areas that you brought a level of pressure to. And that's why it's so good for healing of specific areas. And that's why when it comes to soft tissue, I don't just do the hot areas that most people would think about, like maybe the quads or the forearms, et cetera. I hit my whole body throughout the week.

• 2:44:25Speaker 02

  So I'll do tissue work on my head. I have like a tool that I'll use and while I'm in the sauna, Get on my temple. I'll get on my head. I'll get on the back of my neck. I'll get here.

• 2:44:34Tim Ferriss?

  Must make people comfortable.

• 2:44:36Speaker 02

  This is not like you're like a public sauna.

• 2:44:37Tim Ferriss?

  I have a sauna at home.

• 2:44:38Speaker 02

  But, but when I do go out to the public sauna, I do take a gua shot tool and a body lever with me and I will hit that stuff in there. And usually people are like, what are you doing? That looks like it feels so good. So I'll give them the gua.

• 2:44:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you know what? That's not so bad. That's not so bad.

• 2:44:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:44:49Tim Ferriss?

  And I've been to some of the OG Russian, Turkish baths in New York City and that there are these old guys, oh, from the old country who are like shaving their chests in the sauna. And I'm just like, bro.

• 2:45:03Speaker 02

  You can, that's not a, you shouldn't be able to do that.

• 2:45:05Tim Ferriss?

  Okay. It's not okay. I've seen it on multiple occasions. So point I'm making, not cracker, fine. I'm okay with it.

• 2:45:12Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah. But, but that's the thing. You're, you're bringing blood flow to all these areas. And if you can, going back to the, what you were mentioning about learning how to heal yourself, that's what this is. Body workers are essential. They're great. I have no issue with them. But I think that if you're someone who you go to a body worker and it's usually maybe a two time a month thing, because that's what most people can afford. Like usually it's like once or twice a month. Now you can go to a body worker multiple times a week because you are your own body worker. You learn to find the areas that, first off, you learn that when you put pressure in a certain area, you get relief somewhere else. So you take a mental note. And at this point for me, I know that when I'm feeling a little something in this upper part of my glute, I know what to hit.

• 2:45:55Speaker 02

  If I'm feeling something in my wrist, I know what to hit in my forearm. Like I have these reference points of how to heal myself because I've become familiar with pressurizing my body. And you can, you learn these things. You know what I mean? So, and anyone can learn this. You don't have to have a degree with a bunch of schooling on this. You just have to touch yourself.

• 2:46:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:14Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 2:46:15Tim Ferriss?

  You just have to, yeah, you just have to experiment. Another one, and actually, oh, Dustin Moskovitz, the thank you for this, co-founder of Facebook, now Asana, has the worst branding, which is why I always forget the product name. It's like the back buddy. It basically looks like a very tricked out like pimp my theracane. So like a theracane would be like a plastic candy can that you allows you to get to points on your back that at least I am completely unable to touch. Right. And then there's one that looks more like an S.

• 2:46:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 2:46:51Tim Ferriss?

  That I'm pretty sure it's called back buddy. People can look this up if you just search Dustin Moskowitz back buddy. I'm sure the right name will will come up. And I have one of these like everywhere I go as well, because there's no way like it turn in terms of soft tissue work, like me doing good work on my back is going to be a little tough for getting like very focused attention. All right. Anything else to add on the soft tissue side of things?

• 2:47:16Speaker 02

  In terms of equipment, get your Amazon has med balls. So you can get yourself a med ball on Amazon.

• 2:47:22Tim Ferriss?

  That's a ball, meaning medicine ball?

• 2:47:23Speaker 02

  Medicine ball. Yeah, yeah. Cause like that can allow you to like, and they're they're inexpensive. So you can roll on top of it on top of your hamstrings, your quads, your, you can do some torso work, but it's like, it's a good inexpensive tool for you to get yourself some soft tissue work.

• 2:47:38Tim Ferriss?

  And just for clarity, you are rolling on top of it or you're rolling the medicine ball on top of your leg as an example?

• 2:47:45Speaker 02

  You're on top of it.

• 2:47:46Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:47:47Speaker 02

  You are on top of it, using your, the pressure from your body to put into that ball. So I would look at these as like different, these are different types of pressure. The med ball allows you to put your own pressure into that implement. So there's that. I think there's this woman called Jill Miller. She has on Amazon tune up fitness balls is what they're called. I like those specifically because they're not extremely hard. They have a tad bit of give. They're hard, but they have a bit of give. So you can really sink yourself into it with that pressure. So I would suggest instead of like, because most people, they want to get the hardest balls. But the thing is, is like hard, hard instruments, especially when you're pushing or pressurizing into them, they can almost make most people. Back away from that resistance. Most people need to use a slightly softer implement

• 2:48:32Speaker 02

  to ease themselves into this soft tissue work before moving towards like the Kelly Stewart Supernova, or his Peanut, or any of these harder implements. So that would be some type of pressure. The body lever allows for a leverage type of pressure where now you are pressing two things into each other and you're finding that type of pressure. And then it also allows you to kind of knead like you would like at a massage with a masseuse. You now can use that pressure to knead. And then as far as other implements, there are gua sha tools that you can get from different companies, Amazon or whatever, where again, it's this rubbing pressure. You want to have these implements that provide you different types of pressure so you can do whatever it calls for on any given day.

• 2:49:10Tim Ferriss?

  Let me ask, just because I have to ask, or my OCD will not allow me to proceed, or at least not land the plane on this conversation. Nordic curls. What are Nordic curls? And what does your resume look like with respect to Nordic curls?

• 2:49:29Speaker 02

  The Nordic hamstring curl is something that I started doing again, after I met my buddy Ben Patrick. I wasn't able to do a Nordic curl when I first met him.

• 2:49:39Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so explain what a Nordic curl is.

• 2:49:42Speaker 02

  A Nordic hamstring curl.

• 2:49:43Tim Ferriss?

  Is this also something you should not just run out and try without supervision?

• 2:49:48Speaker 02

  Don't do it. Don't do it. Regress it. If you try Nordic curl, most people will pull their hamstring. There's a way that you could do a Nordic curl would be like, let's say there's a flat bench. Let's imagine that you are, you have your knees on the bench. You could strap your ankles into the bench and the goal is to lean your torso down, almost kind of like, just like you're leaning your torso down, all the way down, and then come up with the strength of your hamstrings. So you're not slamming down, you're not just falling, you're going down slowly and your hamstrings are going to be the hamstring strength is going to be the limiting factor if you are able to control yourself down or bring yourself up.

• 2:50:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. So just, I mean, it is hard the way you describe it and it is even harder. I have a Sora Nex machine for Nordic hamstring.

• 2:50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a machine at home too.

• 2:50:37Speaker 02

  I haven't touched it in a long time. It's a little dusty at this point, but imagine, I'll give another visual for folks. So imagine that you had like a nice thick like memory foam at the edge of a pool. So you put your knees down without your knees hurting. And then a really fat friend came behind you and just sat on your ankles. So now you can get to like your max height on your knees. Your knees are in line with your hips, which are in line with your shoulders. And your fat friend is sitting on your ankles, but you're like comfortable in the memory foam. And then without breaking at the hip, keeping the knees, hips and shoulders in line, you put your hands behind your back and then go all the way down. So your nose touches

• 2:51:22Speaker 02

  the water and then come all the way back up. It is so fucking hard. Okay. And then how does this fit? Why the hell am I asking you about Nordic curls? There must be some historical reason. So I saw that a few years ago, I saw that like Tyreek Hill did a certain amount of Nordic curls. All right. Who's this person? Tyreek Hill is an NFL player. I don't watch much football, so I forget the team he plays for, but he's like, people see him as like, he's one of the fastest, it's not the fastest player in the NFL. Yep. And one thing and a trend you notice amongst a lot of guys who are very fast is that they also have the ability to do a few, if not many Nordic curls. One thing about the Nordic hamstring curl,

• 2:52:04Speaker 02

  there has been some research to back this up, but it's not, doesn't mean you have to do Nordic curls if you want to build resiliency in sprinting, but they progress Nordic curls on athletes that sprinted and these athletes all have less occurrence of pulling their hamstrings because of the amount of strength that you build in your hamstring at length. Because you notice at the end range of a Nordic curl, your hamstring is at this lengthened position with stress on the hamstring, which is why if you're new to the movement, you need to regress it because you could pull your hamstring in that position. It feels- Yeah. Pull a hamstring, by the way, is not like ouch, that hurt. Let me sleep on it. Now I'm okay the next day. Yeah. Typically. It's not one of those. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not nice. So when Ben talked to us and told me about the Nordic curls,

• 2:52:47Speaker 02

  tried one, couldn't get it. And I was like- What did this NFL guy do? Oh, I forgot how many, I think Tyreek did maybe- 12 or 13, 12 or 13. So what I wanted to do is I wanted to progress in order curls. And when I saw Tyreek's video, I was like, I want to do more than Tyreek. So for me to progress in order curls, man, I started at the basic regressions. Like I started first off, having a bench higher and going with limited range of motions. So not going all the way down, finding where my body would not be able to handle the pressure and going to that range, repping that out, slowly lowering down. Took me a few months to lower down to a flat bench. Now I was able to finally do one northern curl. Then I would do a crow where I would go down and push myself up and give myself assistance.

• 2:53:32Speaker 02

  And over time that built and then I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think in the video I managed to do 18 northern curls. I'm not sure if I did 17 or 18 northern curls.

• 2:53:42Tim Ferriss?

  Something like that. I mean, yeah, I'm relying on, I'm relying on some deep research here.

• 2:53:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:53:49Tim Ferriss?

  So let me take a look here. I, I mean, I think we should have pulled up the tape.

• 2:53:55Speaker 02

  We'll have the video here. We'll have some footage here.

• 2:53:57Tim Ferriss?

  Like deep research says that the previous record Tyreek was 10 and you did 15.

• 2:54:02Speaker 02

  There we go.

• 2:54:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. But the point is like, the differential was substantial, right? As for a percentage standpoint.

• 2:54:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:54:11Tim Ferriss?

  Right. You did not just like eke out barely beating the record. Beat the record substantially.

• 2:54:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this isn't like a world record. I think there's a guy who he's much lighter, but I think he managed to do like 25 northern curls or something like that. So it's like, I'm not the guy in the world who's done the most northern, northern curls, but I wanted to beat Tyreek.

• 2:54:30Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:31Speaker 02

  If I'm going to beat Tyreek in one thing, because I'm not faster than Tyreek. It's going to be doing more northern curls than him. But you know, it's one thing like a strength coach who I respect so much. And he's taught me a lot through the show and through what I'm able to see him do with athletes, Ian Danny, he's someone who I love his work because he's someone who takes everything that we've managed to talk about here and he applies it to different athletes he works with. So we have certain athletes that he progresses like a lot of northern curls with. He'll have athletes that he does different soft tissue work with. He has athletes that he purposely has them do certain types of static stretching. Which certain people are like, static stretching isn't good for you, but Ian knows when and where to apply these different modalities.

• 2:55:11Speaker 02

  Rather than saying, that's just bad. We shouldn't do it. Ian is someone who understands how to use all of these things. Holistically to make progress. That's something that I really think most of us should try to do when it comes to our personal physical practice.

• 2:55:26Tim Ferriss?

  All right. So bone density. I have lifted most of my life. And in certain segments of my body, I was shocked to find, I think partially due to the back injury and reducing certain types of loading. But I have below average bone density in a few segments of my body, not all. It's like the average is fine, but averages can be super misleading. All right. You gotta be careful with averages. So the average on DEXA, great, but in certain segments, way below average. So I was like, hmm, I've been thinking about bone density a lot for longevity and health span. You want sufficient bone density.

• 2:56:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:05Tim Ferriss?

  And there are different ways to catalyze the adaptation, right? Of increased bone density, compression, lifting, and parentheses, tension, parentheses, isometrics, impact, jumping, right? And then rotation, which is certainly for me, and I think for a lot of people, whether they consider themselves athletes or not. That is an obvious omission a lot of the time, right? And that could be mace, kettlebell juggling, rope.

• 2:56:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's more so pulling at the bones. So that that rotation, like it's, it is rotation, but it's also pulling these segments.

• 2:56:44Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, I got it. I got it. Okay. So you need, you need more tension. So rope may not be actually a great example, but the kettlebell would be since it's at like the end of a kinetic chain that's getting elongated or at least

• 2:56:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:56Tim Ferriss?

  stretched in that sense. Okay, got it. All right. Aging insurance, certainly. This is something I think about a lot with aging parents as well and really trying to like, I was talking to a doctor I know really well. And he was like, yeah. I call my parents trainer and I just say, when I see, he's like, I just say, make them cry. You have to make my parents cry. Because they need the bone density. Like you have to load it can't be comfortable, or at least overly comfortable. Anything else you'd like to just add on bone density? Oh, also, another one, just because the one place I'm happy to spend a lot of money is on very, very, very good doctors. And I'm fortunate to have really doctors. You have to ensure you have adequate calcium absorption.

• 2:57:38Tim Ferriss?

  And that you are not taking things that could, over time, interfere with calcium absorption. So in addition to the stressors, you gotta pay attention to what you're able to absorb.

• 2:57:50Speaker 02

  On my YouTube channel, I have a video that I made, it's like forty something minutes on bone density that goes into everything. Or goes into all of this. So like, if you guys want to spend some time and go and watch that video, that's, it's gonna be worth it for you. But one thing I want to mention, I'm happy you mentioned the jumping thing because jumping is a, something that we just literally stopped doing, some people. It's something that I stopped. I was a soccer player for years. And when I got into a certain form of like, practice, there was a point where I didn't jump for years, unless like, maybe I was just doing a random box jump here and there, which I ended up being really crap at because jumping is something I stopped doing. And what happens to many people is like, because they slowly stop getting off the ground,

• 2:58:32Speaker 02

  there comes a point where they never jump again. And then they're forty, fifty, sixty, they jump, they pull something, and then they're like, I can't do this. Because they can't, first off, they don't have the strength to propel themselves off the ground, but they also don't have the elasticity to be able to land and handle the force from the ground.

• 2:58:49Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's not, it's not the jumping necessarily, it's the problem, it's the landing.

• 2:58:53Speaker 02

  It's the landing.

• 2:58:53Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:54Speaker 02

  So I think something that can be a great investment for many people, including those that are older, is a rebounder. You know what a rebounder is? Like a mini trampoline.

• 2:59:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, a little trampoline.

• 2:59:05Speaker 02

  There's many brands. Bellacon is like the Rolls Royce of rebounders, but there's also.

• 2:59:08Tim Ferriss?

  Bellacon, sounds like the Rolls Royce.

• 2:59:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's also like lesser expensive brands, but I, I love the rebounder. I have a rebounder. And the reason why I like it is because like, it's something that I can just keep in the backyard. And when I go outside, I can just hop on it real quick. It feels pretty meditative. But like, there have been quite a few studies to show, especially in older adults, that rebounding helped them build bone density because of the low intensity jumping that it causes for them.

• 2:59:33Tim Ferriss?

  Why, I can guess at the answer here, but why is that better than, say, jumping rope? Or just jumping in place?

• 2:59:39Speaker 02

  It's a regression. It's the regression. You know what I mean? Because many people, they try jumping rope. Many people, their feet will get beat up a lot. It's something that you can, you absolutely can and should build the capacity to do. I look at jumping rope as like rebounder, light hopping, 30 seconds to a minute to two minutes of jumping rope each day or every other day. Then over time, you're going to get to a point where you can jump rope for five, 10, 15, 20 minutes. But the thing is, is the ability to jump rope without certain muscles and areas getting taxed more than others is a full body build of elasticity from the feet all the way up to the neck. Because everything needs to have the right amount of tension, but not too much tension.

• 3:00:24Speaker 02

  So what a lot of people notice when they start jumping rope is that they're like, oh, my calves got super sore. Right? And experienced people who jump rope, it's not their calves that get super sore. It's like, everything just kind of starts getting tired out because their whole system is just popping them off the ground very lightly. Whereas when you're new to it, that impact and even your feet are too weak to handle that impact on the ground and you don't pop off. So that's why a rebounder is going to be super good. Then regress jumping so you can have your hands on something and start jumping. Then just literally.

• 3:00:55Tim Ferriss?

  What do you mean by hands on something?

• 3:00:56Speaker 02

  Put your hands on a table, hop. Use that to help you have a softer landing. Initially, you might have a lot of weight in your hands so that you, because like, maybe you can't handle that landing. But over time, you're going to be able to put less weight in the hands. And then, this is where I got my mom.

• 3:01:11Tim Ferriss?

  So hopping, AKA basically emulating what you do, kind of jump roping?

• 3:01:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, you could do that lightly. You can also kind of transfer from leg to leg, light hops. But the goal is to, again, do not be embarrassed with how low you have to regress to feel comfortable with this. Don't just try starting to jump with a jump rope immediately. Because if you do that too soon and your body's telling you signals that you're not ready for it, whether you're getting a lot of impact in your lower back, your knees, your feet are feeling really beat up. You need to listen to those signals and regress the hopping. I'm telling you, if you can regress hopping, do it a little bit. Doesn't have to be every day, could be every other day, just a little bit. Get to a point where you can start jumping rope.

• 3:01:53Tim Ferriss?

  If you want to see an example of what not to do, people can search for the Tim Ferriss experiment parkour episode where I went from like no jumping to let me try to learn parkour in a week.

• 3:02:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:03Tim Ferriss?

  Don't do that.

• 3:02:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:05Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, do not do that. Yeah, basically just like blew apart my entire body like Forrest Gump's braces.

• 3:02:11Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 3:02:12Tim Ferriss?

  Not a good idea.

• 3:02:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:13Tim Ferriss?

  So yeah, regress.

• 3:02:14Speaker 02

  But the reason why I think that that's so important, it's great for bone density, like what we were saying here, but I think it's like it allows you to bring back that skill and never lose it because once you're able to start hopping and it's now an effortless thing, just a little bit will allow you to hold on to it for the rest of your life. And if you have it right now, do the low intensity jump rope. Just you don't even need a jump rope. Just do some hopping each day so that you maintain that ability to just propel and land. That goes very far and a majority of the population can't do it anymore just because one day they stopped and they never did it again.

• 3:02:48Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I can't remember who told me this. I'm inclined to say Kelly Starrett because I get a lot of these from Kelly. So Kelly, I'll give you credit for this, even if it's not you, but I think it is Kelly, who is quoting a famous Russian sports scientist, as I recall it, who said, once you stop jumping, you start dying.

• 3:03:07Speaker 02

  I love that. I, yes, dude, that's true. There was this video, maybe I'll be able to find it by the time this comes out, but it literally showed this young man and it showed all of his relatives that were over 40. He had something up there and he was trying to have everyone jump. No one, even actually, there was a few people in their 30s. Everyone tried jumping and they couldn't, they could barely get off the ground. It's such an awkward thing. And he's someone who trains jumping. So he was able to like go super high, but it just shows that like, once you stop, it can go very quickly. But I want people to understand this doesn't mean you can't get it back. It just means that you gotta treat yourself like a kid that's learning to walk again. You gotta start with the basics, be okay with that taking a while.

• 3:03:51Speaker 02

  Your feet have to adapt to the stress. Your body has to adapt to handle that force. Could be a year, could be two, could be whatever.

• 3:03:58Tim Ferriss?

  So what does a rebounder's session look like? How long would you bounce on it?

• 3:04:01Speaker 02

  Literally, you could bounce on it like, again, just kind of like with the rope. You could do a minute, you could do 10. A rebounder takes away a lot of the impact that you're gonna have from like the ground because it allows you to go in and then you're able to use that energy to pop back up. So when you become like, there are rebounders like the Bellican, I think other rebounders also. They have these handles that you can use if you find it difficult.

• 3:04:22Tim Ferriss?

  I've seen this, yeah, they're all tricked out. They're like the Batmobile sled.

• 3:04:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a whole fitness trend of like people on YouTube that do rebounder exercises. Like it's a workout for them. And I think this is a great thing. Some of them are heavier. That's powerful. Somebody who is, let's say they're, they're 100 pounds overweight, 150 pounds overweight, but they can actually start jumping again.

• 3:04:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:45Speaker 02

  And they can start bouncing again, but then over time, they can transfer that to flat ground.

• 3:04:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 3:04:52Speaker 02

  Right? So that's why I think it's super powerful for everyone. If you find that jumping, you can't do jumping, rebounding is great. Now, I also like rebounding too, because it's something that I feel kind of decompresses my system a little bit. I like it because when I get into the air, there's just like this, I can't replicate this floaty thing that happens in the air where I'm just like, it's just like you're weightless. And when you become experienced, you can really go down into the rebounder and just get super high and just, you're just literally going down and floating. When I come off the rebounder, my body feels similar to when I finish a swim. I feel this global decompression everywhere. So it's one of those practices that I look at that makes the body feel better afterwards than before. It can be a workout if you want it to be.

• 3:05:36Speaker 02

  I don't look at my rebounding as a workout. I look at the rebounding as a recovery practice that feeds my body and allows me to do more hard work later. I look at the rope as that too. It feeds my body and allows me to do more later. It's, it's healthy for me and it's just fun. I think a, a big thing here, all this stuff for me is fun, man. It feels like play, right? So that's very important for me.

• 3:06:02Tim Ferriss?

  Playing the long game. It's too boring or too punishing ultimately.

• 3:06:10Tim Ferriss?

  It's gotta be sustainable.

• 3:06:12Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 3:06:13Tim Ferriss?

  I'm excited to try a lot of what we've talked about. So where can people find all things in Sima?

• 3:06:21Speaker 02

  Me and my producer, Owen Carr, we make videos on the YouTube channel, which is just my name and Sima Inyang. So you can, if you want to find the bone density video, the traditional strength training video, that's at my YouTube channel, which is just my name, Sima Iyeng.

• 3:06:33Tim Ferriss?

  Now, just a note for people, there is silent N in there. N S I M A I N Y A N G.

• 3:06:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. If you say my name wrong, trust me, I ain't gonna get mad at you. Don't worry. Okay? So don't be scared. Over at my website, thestrongerhuman.store is, there's ropes, sandbags, kettlebells, the body lever, pretty much everything that I use, it's over there at the Stronger Human store. And then if you want to learn rope flow for free, I have a rope flow foundations course that has like 55 modules and like over 50 videos that go in depth, taking you from being someone who can be basic with rope flow to someone who can now flow with many different movements. That's in the Stronger Human community, which is on skool.com/thestrongerhuman. And I also have stuff there where you can learn kettlebell flow, how to do soft tissue work.

• 3:07:22Tim Ferriss?

  skool.com is spelled like normal school.

• 3:07:24Speaker 02

  S K O O L, S K O O L dot com slash the stronger human. Thanks for that correction.

• 3:07:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 3:07:29Speaker 02

  My goal for that place is, first off, there's a great community there of over 12,000 people right now. Like, I love how these people bring in their different expertise with what they're doing. Not everyone is doing all the exact same things that I do. So it's cool that I get to learn from them too. But it's just a great community of people that are all just trying to become stronger and build their own personal physical practices. And my goal for myself there is just to put everything that I've learned there. I want to mention this, Tim. Your podcast is a podcast that my, me and my best friend, his name's Brian Belaya, we were listening to your show back when I was 18 years old. Like we were listening to your stuff back. Actually, no, I think I was, I think I was 20. The 19 and 20 is when we were listening to the show because we would, uh, we would literally go on calls and be like, okay, dude,

• 3:08:12Speaker 02

  what'd you learn from this? We'd get the books that were referenced in the show. I think we read the way of the superior man because of something you mentioned on one of your shows.

• 3:08:19Tim Ferriss?

  Somehow came up.

• 3:08:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So that's what like got me on the path of like self-development and learning, constant learning. And Brian would say the same thing, like me and him are going to go crazy because like, oh shit, we just went on Tim Ferriss. So it's like, it's cool. So I want to say thank you because honestly, dude, I've listened to so much of your show, so much of your show. And it's taught me so much through the years that for me being here right now, it's literally insane to me. I'm just happy that I was able to stay kind of chilled during this show because this has been really cool. So I want to say thank you. Cause you like, you literally, man, your stuff has changed my life. Seriously.

• 3:08:57Tim Ferriss?

  Amazing. Yeah. Makes my day. Thank you.

• 3:08:59Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:09:00Tim Ferriss?

  So glad we got to spend time together and I'm very excited to see what you do in the coming years.

• 3:09:07Speaker 02

  How old are you? 32. I turned 33 this year.

• 3:09:09Tim Ferriss?

  You got some runway. I cannot wait to see the fact that you're doing masters. I just, I gotta, I gotta talk some shit.

• 3:09:18Speaker 02

  I also compete in adult. I don't only compete in masters.

• 3:09:23Tim Ferriss?

  Because masters starts at 30, right? And I remember this past winter, someone's like, yeah, you should do some masters competitions in skiing. And I was like, what's the lowest age that one can be masters? They're like 30. And I was like, oh, I see. So people who just stop competing at the highest levels. Ah, no, I'm not going to be like a mop for those guys. Thanks.

• 3:09:47Speaker 02

  But there's like ranges of masters. There's like masters one, which is what I did, right? So I compete in adult and masters. So I'm all, but there's also masters two and three. So like they do it from like 30 to 33, then 34. Yeah. So it's not like I'm competing against some 60 year olds.

• 3:10:03Tim Ferriss?

  You're slack. Take this guilty and bitch.

• 3:10:06Speaker 02

  No, they're all around my, they're all around.

• 3:10:08Tim Ferriss?

  How's that arthritis? I'm gonna come bury your arm off. Oh, yeah. Don't look at me that way.

• 3:10:15Speaker 02

  But I also compete in adult.

• 3:10:16Tim Ferriss?

  Take your walker and get out of here.

• 3:10:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. So.

• 3:10:22Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, man. Well, the very, very, very fun and super, super informative to spend time together. And very inspiring because as you're talking about these things, and I'm sure I'm not the only person, I'm sure people are listening. You do a very good job of making it seem, which it is, right? Not just tangible, but achievable. Scale it down, right? You're not going to walk in and do 600, 700 pound, 800 pound deadlifts tomorrow if you haven't been deadlifting. You don't need to do that. You shouldn't even attempt to do that. You shouldn't even attempt your one rep max.

• 3:11:02Tim Ferriss?

  And the payoff that you can get from layering these things in, learning to feel your body, learning to then trust your body, becoming familiar with the map that is your body and how it changes over time. The payoff with this type of microdosing of movement, the microdosing of soft tissue treatment. It does not need to be and turn your life upside down, change everything, transformation overnight. And it shouldn't be because that's going to fail. And from experience, I can tell you whether it was with training with Jersey back in the day or training with Coach Summer back in the day, it's like these little things done consistently.

• 3:11:44Tim Ferriss?

  If you are consistent and you add some progressive overload, doesn't mean a lot. Doesn't mean slapping on 20 pounds every time you go to the gym with extra weight. Micro progressions that are sustainable. So you're not getting injured ideally, right? Those things will happen, little nicks and bruises along the way. What that can add up to, when I look back at some of those experiences, it's just unbelievably impressive. And more important, fulfilling. And you can actually fully inhabit this body that, by the way, like mind, body, there's no separation. It's just one integrated unit.

• 3:12:24Tim Ferriss?

  And like we are evolved to move our bodies through space. That's why like the idea of a brain in a jar doesn't really work. Like uploading consciousness now, like it's all integrated into the movement of the body. And I think you are an incredible ambassador for it. So, thank you for that. And you're a very, very, very good educator. And that is hard to do. That is hard to do in a very crowded media landscape. And I saw that video and I was like, huh, interesting. And then Mark's name popped up and I was like, I think I recognize that fucking mutant. Hold on a second. And I texted Mark. And here we are. So I'm glad it happened. And

• 3:13:07Tim Ferriss?

  we will link to everything in the show notes, folks. We're gonna go get some food, which I'm very excited about. And show notes, as per usual, tim.blog/podcast will link to everything. And I can guarantee you, if you search for this episode in S I M A, there will be one and only. It's hard for me to imagine getting a collection of those. And as always, folks, until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others and also to yourself, very important. Compassion that doesn't include you is incomplete, as Jack Kornfield would say. And thanks for tuning in. Until next time.

• 3:13:52Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums, perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric

• 3:14:36Tim Ferriss?

  things end up in my field, and then I test them, and then I Share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to tim.blog/friday, type that into your browser, tim.blog/friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. Sleep is the key to it all. It is the foundation. Many of you heard me talk about how today's sponsor, Eight Sleep, has improved my sleep with its Pod cover. Well, they just launched their latest product, the Pod 5. I cannot wait to try it out. And here's why. The Pod 5 introduces Eight Sleep's latest product, the Blanket, which uses the same technology

• 3:15:19Tim Ferriss?

  as the Pod's cover, to extend temperature regulation across the entire body. So if you're too hot, too cold, you can fix it. If you're a couple and one of you is hot, one of you is cold, you can fix it as well. It all fits right over your existing mattress like a fitted sheet. On average, members report the Pod has helped them fall asleep 44% faster, 34% deeper sleep, and given them up to one added hour of sleep each night. Also, the Pod's snoring detection, my friend Albert might be interested in this, and automatic elevating platform have reduced user snoring by 45%. So it does a lot. You'll also get a personalized report each morning, allowing you to track your sleep stages, heart rate variability, respiratory rate, and more, all without having any devices strapped onto

• 3:16:00Tim Ferriss?

  you. So head over to eightsleep.com/tim and use code TIM to get $350 off of your very own Pod 5 Ultra. You can try it at home for 30 days and return if you don't like it. So why not? Give it a shot. Sleep is everything. Again, that's eightsleep.com/tim, spell it out, eightsleep.com/tim, for $350 off. Shipping is available to many countries worldwide. One more time, eightsleep.com/tim. This episode is brought to you by Peak. That's P-I-Q-U-E. I have had so much tea in my life. I've been to China. I've lived in China, in Japan. I've done tea tours. I drink a lot of tea. I've been drinking fermented Pu'er tea specifically, pretty much every day

• 3:16:45Tim Ferriss?

  for years now. The problem with good Pu'er is that it's hard to source. It's hard To find real Pu'er that hasn't been exposed to pesticides and other nasties, which is super common. That's why Peak's fermented Pu'er tea crystals have become my daily go-to. It's so simple. They have so many benefits that I'm going to get into. And I first learned about them through my friends Dr. Peter Attia and Kevin Rose. Peak Crystals are cold extracted using only wild harvested leaves from 250-year-old tea trees. I often kickstart my mornings with their Pu'er green tea, their Pu'er black tea, and I alternate between the two. The rich, earthy flavor of the black specifically is amazing. It's very, very, it's like a delicious barnyard.

• 3:17:29Tim Ferriss?

  Very peaty, if you like whiskey and stuff like that. They triple toxin screen all of their products for heavy metals, pesticides, and toxic mold, contaminants commonly found in tea. There's also zero prep or brewing required as the crystals dissolve in seconds. So you can just drop it into your hot tea, or I also make iced tea, and that saves a ton of time and hassle. So for you, my dear listeners, Peak is offering 20% off, valid for the lifetime of your subscription, plus a free starter kit, which includes a rechargeable frother and a glass beaker. This all comes with their 90-day satisfaction guarantee, so it's risk-free. I suggest check it out. I've been using Peak for years. I just had a bunch of Peak stuff this morning.

• 3:18:12Tim Ferriss?

  Go to peaklife.com/tim to learn more. That's P-I-Q-U-E-L-I-F-E, peaklife.com/tim. Peaklife.com/tim. The discount is automatically applied at checkout.