Nothing Violent

There's a conspiracy theory on Reddit right now suggesting that Reddit is using aggressive tools to hide posts praising or supporting Luigi Mangione's alleged execution-style killing of the CEO of United Healthcare, Brian Thompson. Endless Thread looks at what is going on with Luigi memes on this platform: the Nintendo character memes… and the other ones. Show notes: A Reddit moderation tool is flagging ‘Luigi’ as potentially violent content (The Verge https://www.theverge.com/news/626139/reddit-luigi-mangione-automod-tool) Reddit will warn users who repeatedly upvote banned content (The Verge https://www.theverge.com/news/625075/reddit-will-warn-users-who-repeatedly-upvote-banned-content) What's the deal with all of these Luigi themed posts saying "nothing violent going on here"? (r/OutOfTheLoop https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/1j8wxxd/whats_the_deal_with_all_of_these_luigi_themed/) Credits: This episode was produced by Grace Tatter and Ben Brock Johnson. It was edited by Meg Cramer, and hosted by Amory Sivertson and Ben Brock Johnson. Mix and sound design by Paul Vaitkus.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for WBUR comes from the Quiet Tension Podcast. When Joe Missoula got the Celtics job, Steve Paliuka sat up until 1:00 in the morning, typing him 25 things about leadership. Dr. Sharon Turbin asks what came first on the list. Listen closely wherever you get your podcasts.

• 0:19Speaker 01

  Support for Endless Thread comes from MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software to design and develop engineered systems, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy terms and conditions.

• 1:05Speaker 03

  WBUR Podcasts, Boston.

• 1:18Ben Brock Johnson?

  Amory, are you a Luigi? I don't know his last name. Luigi the Plumber? Are you a Luigi the Plumber meme connoisseur?

• 1:30Amory Sivertson?

  I like only faintly know who Luigi really is. So no, but I appreciate them. And I like that guy.

• 1:40Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, he's eminently likable.

• 1:42Amory Sivertson?

  Would you call yourself a connoisseur?

• 1:44Ben Brock Johnson?

  Well, I will say this. There is a Luigi meme that I've always loved. And that is the Nintendo 64 character or, you know, Nintendo character looking over his shoulder in Mario Kart after he has, like, busted up another player in the gameplay. You know Mario Kart, right? You've played Mario Kart, I assume, at some point. And Luigi, as we all know, Mario's, uh, I would say cooler brother.

• 2:18Amory Sivertson?

  More handsome.

• 2:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  More handsome. Yeah, I'd say he's more handsome. Yeah. Um, his mustache is a little bit longer, I think. Anyway, there's this meme of Luigi basically busting up Wario in the gameplay and then like a slow mo of him driving past and looking back over his shoulder. Luigi is like such like a wholesome character. You know what I mean? So to watch Luigi like ice somebody from behind and then sort of like give them the glare as he drives by. There's something sort of uncharacteristic and thus funny about that.

• 3:00Amory Sivertson?

  Cause if you've pissed Luigi off, you've really done something wrong.

• 3:03Ben Brock Johnson?

  You've really done something wrong, which I, I love the way you say that.

• 3:07Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah.

• 3:10Ben Brock Johnson?

  So for the vast majority of Reddit history, we've had one kind of Luigi meme based off the Nintendo character. And like any good meme template, the subject matter is flexible, right? Could be about anything.

• 3:22Amory Sivertson?

  But over the last month, we've been seeing a new kind of Luigi meme. And for a lot of people, this new kind of meme is a little mysterious.

• 3:31Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay. So here's another one that's, that's really more similar to what we have seen happening recently on Reddit, which is, I would say very different, or at least it's new and there's, there's, there's some new sort of characteristics of it. So the other one is this picture of what looks like sort of like a New York City pizzeria. And it says Luigi's Pizzeria. And it does have a mustache on it.

• 4:01Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, I just noticed that.

• 4:03Ben Brock Johnson?

  Mustache.

• 4:03Amory Sivertson?

  Yes.

• 4:04Ben Brock Johnson?

  On the sign and in the window. But the caption to this meme, and this was, you know, this was posted 24 days ago.

• 4:13Amory Sivertson?

  At the time that we're recording this, at least.

• 4:15Ben Brock Johnson?

  At the time that we're recording this. So like at the beginning of March, this was posted. And the Redditor caption is, "Nothing violent, just a great little pizza place in Canada."

• 4:28Ben Brock Johnson?

  And the "nothing violent" is the thing that's kind of interesting here. Were you able to find some Luigi memes in preparation of this conversation?

• 4:37Amory Sivertson?

  I got memes.

• 4:38Ben Brock Johnson?

  All right.

• 4:39Amory Sivertson?

  So, do you want to describe the picture?

• 4:42Ben Brock Johnson?

  Ooh, yeah, I saw this one too. Uh, so this is just like, it looks like somebody's passenger seat. And it has a Nintendo-style corduroy, green corduroy hat, sitting on the seat. Yes, it is. Zoom in, it's corduroy. Yeah, it's corduroy.

• 5:00Amory Sivertson?

  No, it is not.

• 5:02Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, no, you're right, you're right. That's just, that's just the internet playing tricks on my old eyes.

• 5:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  But it's grea-, it's a green hat. I wish it was corduroy. And it has a, a green L on it, in the style of Nintendo. And again, nothing violent, just a picture of my work hat.

• 5:20Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah. And, and this is in the Kitchen Confidential subreddit, which is for people who work in the, the food industry, the hospitality industry. And so it's interesting that as we discuss these memes more, the fact that there is Luigi content, Nintendo Luigi content, being posted in Kitchen Confidential, still with this "nothing violent" at the top of the caption. It's interesting that this is like, making its way around, uh, around subreddits. And then I wanted to point out a couple of, um, a couple of comments on this.

• 5:56Ben Brock Johnson?

  I'm seeing one right now. Maybe you're seeing the same one.

• 5:59Amory Sivertson?

  I'm looking at Nater Potato-er, Potater, Nater Potater, says, "Reddit algorithm would be really angry if it knew what this post is about."

• 6:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yes.

• 6:10Amory Sivertson?

  So, it's, it's just their work hat, right?

• 6:13Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, right.

• 6:15Amory Sivertson?

  There's another commenter that says, "Reddit banned me for three days for asking if we need to specify which one we mean."

• 6:24Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yes, as in which Luigi, we would assume. Yes.

• 6:28Amory Sivertson?

  Right.

• 6:29Ben Brock Johnson?

  So there is a conspiracy theory on Reddit right now suggesting that basically Reddit is using aggressive tools to disappear, squash, limit, and deprioritize posts praising or supporting Luigi Mangione's alleged execution-style killing of the CEO of United Healthcare, Brian Thompson.

• 6:49Amory Sivertson?

  And as a show that is no longer partnered with Reddit, but used to be, and is pretty interested in how political and free speech is dealt with in a very politically-charged environment, which, alas, we are definitely in right now.

• 7:04Ben Brock Johnson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:05Amory Sivertson?

  We want to know what is going on with Luigi on this platform, the Nintendo Luigi memes and the other ones.

• 7:15Ben Brock Johnson?

  And how should we think about violent language on Reddit and other online platforms, especially in a world where there are very serious issues involving free speech in America and how it is under attack?

• 7:30Ben Brock Johnson?

  I'm a Wario Ben Brock Johnson and I'm a gonna win.

• 7:35Amory Sivertson?

  I'm Yoshi Amory Sivertson, and this is Endless Thread.

• 7:41Ben Brock Johnson?

  We're coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR.

• 7:44Amory Sivertson?

  Today's episode: Nothing Violent. Just a discussion of Luigi and free speech on the front page of the internet.

• 8:02Amory Sivertson?

  So for some people, this story started with this post. It's on a subreddit called Out of the Loop, for people who are feeling out of the loop. The caption is, "What's the deal with all these Luigi-themed posts saying, quote-unquote, 'nothing violent going on here'?" And then the body of the post says, "I've been seeing a lot of posts referencing something about Luigi and the title saying something along the lines of..." Nothing violent here, just a delicious pizza place. Or just this Luigi hat. I'm sure it has to be related to Luigi Mangione, but I've got to be missing something.

• 8:37Ben Brock Johnson?

  Mm hmm, mm hmm. So what this redditor was missing is that a week before they posted, Reddit had put a new policy into place. The policy was that Reddit would start warning users who upvote content that is banned for violating the site's policies. So not just taking action against the person who posted the content, the OP, but also the people who are essentially saying, yep, this is good, here's my updo. I was also curious about this policy change. I had watched this policy change and I was watching it play out on the site because a bunch of users discovered all of a sudden that they couldn't upvote things. The upvote button itself was kind of grayed out for them. And often what happens on Reddit is you don't necessarily know

• 9:22Ben Brock Johnson?

  about the policy change before they start to roll it out because of the kind of size of the website and the functionality of the website. They kind of test stuff before they pull the trigger to make it happen across the whole site. Not to use the violent phrasing of pulling the trigger here, but I was already posting about this. So like days before, the other user posted, you know, why are people making all these memes about nothing violent with Luigi? The cartoon character, the Nintendo character. I had posted about this on Reddit in the Change My View subreddit.

• 9:55Amory Sivertson?

  And we should say that you made this post with just your opinion, as is the tradition of r slash Change My View, just to see whether people would agree or have thoughts, not realizing that you were going to get a big response or that we were going to talk about it in an episode. Okay, go on.

• 10:12Ben Brock Johnson?

  So what I had posted, which was, you know, it was a bit of a, you know, it was a bit edgy. But what I had posted to see what, you know, how people would react was, Change My View, the new Reddit upvote rules are about Luigi. Obviously not the Nintendo character, but Luigi Mangione.

• 10:32Amory Sivertson?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:33Ben Brock Johnson?

  I believe the new upvote rules are about Luigi Mangione. It's a control tactic. They're scared by how popular he was. Simply deleting posts would have completely emptied the front page for weeks. Now they can police popularity by banning people for upvoting things deemed quote unquote violent or quote unquote offensive. But it's really just a control tactic to protect against the next thing that happens that's extremely popular, but not good for business, AKA advertising on the platform. So this is what I posted. This, this post, you know, it wasn't like crazy popular, but it got a thousand upvotes and 165 comments or thereabouts. And a lot of people had a lot to say about it.

• 11:18Amory Sivertson?

  So I'm looking through the comments. One person says Reddit has had an issue with certain subs promoting violent extremism for a long time now. They're just trying to clean up their act now that they're publicly traded.

• 11:33Amory Sivertson?

  Another person says, it's not just about him. I'm sure he plays a part, but all the stuff about Musk, Trump, and any other political figure, read Republicans plus guillotines, et cetera, is the main thing. Okay. And then the top commenter says, I'm not too sure with regards to your thesis. They recently banned the white people Twitter sub for promoting violence against Elon's Doge team. There were upvoted comments of people threatening or advocating violence against members of his team. And I think they decided that these comments being upvoted, which gave them more reach, was a bad thing, too. That was one of the biggest subs, too, and we haven't seen any sub bans because of Luigi.

• 12:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, so this was a comment that kind of like changed my view. I was like, oh, maybe it's about white people Twitter. Around the time that all this discussion was happening, there was this other thing happening. People were talking a lot about, and still are, about Elon Musk's DOGE, Department of Government Efficiency, and how employees of DOGE were doing huge amounts of damage to digital government systems by going in and messing around with them. And the r/whitepeelpetwitter subreddit, which is a massive subreddit, that's just really about, you know, sharing funny tweets, ended up having users post about committing violence

• 13:04Ben Brock Johnson?

  against members of DOGE. And also, apparently, were posting sort of identifying information about some of those DOGE workers. And Elon Musk claimed comments made by the site's users about his employees were breaking the law. And Reddit, which declined to comment about this, but did make a public post that it had made following the ban, maybe, according to some, caved to Elon Musk's complaints. "Over the last few days," said the public post, "we've seen an increase in content in several communities that violate Reddit's rules."

• 13:47Ben Brock Johnson?

  The post reads, "Debate and dissent are welcome on Reddit. Threats and doxing are not." So this was Reddit sort of like acknowledging that what was happening in white people Twitter, which is the subreddit that got banned for 72 hours, was against the Reddit rules, the site-wide rules, and that's why the subreddit got banned. They didn't specifically mention DOGE or Elon Musk, but that seems to have been what that subreddit ban was about. And so it's interesting that that was happening at the same time as this rule about violence and violent content being put into place. Mm-hmm.

• 14:29Ben Brock Johnson?

  And I think, you know, this user was, was good at at least convincing me that that was part of it, and that it may have been about that, about Elon Musk and DOGE and white people Twitter, and not specifically Luigi.

• 14:47Amory Sivertson?

  Okay. And that actually feels pretty relevant because we know that these tech gajillionaires talk to each other. And this was borne out in a story from just a couple weeks ago about Elon Musk's infamous photo from the Trump inauguration where he was making a Nazi salute, which he denies was a Nazi salute. But yeah, right after that, the moderators of more than 100 different subreddits banned links to X because people often, you know, post a link to X to get people to more information. So they said, no more. And this list included

• 15:27Amory Sivertson?

  the NFL subreddit, the Nintendo subreddit, the military subreddit. According to The Verge, Musk allegedly had texted Reddit CEO Steve Huffman to complain about this, to say like, "Your subreddits are banning links to my platform."

• 15:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 15:45Amory Sivertson?

  And it was shortly after that, that the white people Twitter subreddit got banned.

• 15:59Ben Brock Johnson?

  We'll be right back.

• 16:08Speaker 00

  Support for WBUR comes from the Quiet Tension Podcast. There's a part of high performance that drives you, shapes you, and pulls at you too. Rarely spoken, almost never examined. That's the quiet tension. Coming up, psychologist and executive coach Dr. Sharon Turbin with Steve Paliuka on what separates the leaders people follow from the ones they don't. Stay with us for a preview. Listen closely wherever you get your podcasts.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy terms and conditions.

• 17:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  All right, so we're talking about the possible explanation of a reason for Reddit's new policy on upvoting violent content. So, you know, again, like, this does seem like the right explanation, right? Like, you know, Elon Musk, very powerful figure, pressure on Reddit equals Reddit change.

• 17:35Ben Brock Johnson?

  But I will say that all of this stuff, like, was happening at the same time, and there were these, like, there was a flurry of news stories about all of this. And after I, you know, rewarded the delta, which is what you do when somebody changes your view in the Change My View subreddit, to that commenter who said, "I think it's actually about white people Twitter, it's not about Luigi Mangione." There was another story that came out around the same time. Another story from The Verge saying Luigi, even in a Nintendo context, is being flagged as potential violence. So this is according to a mod from the r/pop culture subreddit.

• 18:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  And they say that they noticed Reddit's auto-moderator system, so these bots that basically, like, you know, help the moderators of various subreddits do their work. They saw this system flag a post about the video game Luigi's Mangione 3 because it included the word Luigi, giving the moderator instructions to, quote, "check for violence."

• 18:44Amory Sivertson?

  I thought the bots were better than that, man. I thought we were... I thought we could do better.

• 18:53Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, context matters, right? You know, bots aren't always going to be good with context. Apparently, a Reddit spokesperson who asked not to be named said that there is not a site-wide filter for the word Luigi.

• 19:08Ben Brock Johnson?

  But apparently Luigi content even completely unrelated to Luigi Mangione has been flagged by the system as potentially violent. And you know, there's some complexity to this story in terms of like, what was going on in the pop culture subreddit at the time? And you know, there was like, I guess, a sort of dearth of moderators in the subreddit. And some of the auto mod features kicked in, basically like, you know, having the bots do more of the moderating work, which resulted in this Luigi getting flagged as violent content. But again, like any use of this kind of tool in this way, I think it gets really complicated because you're, you're taking a word, a simple word, a simple name like Luigi,

• 19:52Ben Brock Johnson?

  and you're basically saying that this word will be disappeared from the site or slightly disappeared or automatically flagged as violent. And I feel like that's, that's really scary, I would say, to me.

• 20:04Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, also, it's a popular man's name in at least one country.

• 20:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, come on. How many Luigi's do you know? Come on.

• 20:12Amory Sivertson?

  I know more than you would think.

• 20:20Amory Sivertson?

  One of the posts that I, like Luigi related posts that I came across when I was looking for Luigi memes was in the 3D printing subreddit, which is huge, by the way. They have more than 3 million members. And someone made a 3D printed Luigi, the Nintendo character, but wearing a green hoodie with the hood up, like those surveillance photos that you saw of Luigi Mangione. And the caption is just, "It's Luigi." And so that, you know, a post like that is still up. It was made before all of this, you know, this new policy went into effect.

• 21:04Amory Sivertson?

  But the moderator did post and sticky a comment, so like pinned a comment that says, "Guys, it's a 3D printed statue and well within free speech to like Luigi. We have like 10 reports on this post. Please stop. If you have a problem, you can discuss it here or in a DM." But I guess this person got requests to take it down and they said, "Nope. Free speech staying up in the 3D printing subreddit." So.

• 21:34Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, it does feel like we're at this, we're in a, we're in a real free speech battle right now. And I don't think bots are the answer. I will say that.

• 21:45Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, it gets really complicated because like, look, words matter and words are complicated, right? Like, I can see a number of words would be, would and could be, and maybe should be discouraged from being used on a site like Reddit, right? But if those words are at the center of debate about the way that the world should be, it's really, it gets really complicated in terms of like, how you might moderate a site as large as Reddit.

• 22:18Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, and it gets scary when, and this is not the first time that we've brought this up on the show, but it gets scary when one

• 22:28Amory Sivertson?

  fragile, upset tech billionaire can influence another platform. And we, like we said, we don't know if that's for sure what happened here. But we do, we have seen examples of tech platforms bowing to the whims of, of other powerful people.

• 22:49Ben Brock Johnson?

  And here's the nuance for me. Take another name, Hitler. If you build a bot that takes every instance of that name across a platform built for conversation that is largely moderated by volunteers, and you flag any comment or post that mentions this name, Hitler, as potentially violent, you get into this really tricky world of chilling speech. Because you create a whole category of posts that need to be reviewed because they might be bad news. And doing that is not a neutral thing. So as a moderator, it's very likely that you're not going to want to deal with all of that. So you might actually ban or disappear language that, you know, might still be

• 23:34Ben Brock Johnson?

  part of an important discourse. Maybe it's reminding people of the history of Nazis and Hitler, for instance.

• 23:41Amory Sivertson?

  And as a user, you're maybe not going to want to deal with being warned or banned either. So you might avoid bringing up history in conversation.

• 23:51Ben Brock Johnson?

  OK, so it's important to say that we reached out to Reddit with very direct questions about all of this. Whether Luigi Mangione, Elon Musk, and the white people Twitter subreddit being temporarily banned, whether any of it played a role in inspiring new policy. And a Reddit spokesperson responded and said, no.

• 24:10Amory Sivertson?

  We also asked if the name Luigi Mangione, or just Luigi, was being flagged as quote unquote, potentially violent across the site. The spokesperson said no, and that volunteer moderators can choose to flag certain words with auto moderator tools, and that Reddit employees don't take part in that review process. However, in the case we mentioned involving the pop culture subreddit, admins did intervene and turned on AutoMod, and said that they did flag the word Luigi as potentially violent. The company said at the time, the subreddit, which is large, had only one moderator, and the moderator wasn't active when the

• 24:54Amory Sivertson?

  AutoMod flag of Luigi was turned on. Reddit says this AutoMod setting was turned off once new moderators were added to the pop culture subreddit.

• 25:05Ben Brock Johnson?

  The Reddit spokesperson wanted to stress that flagging content just requires further review and doesn't automatically result in consequences for users.

• 25:14Amory Sivertson?

  So we want to know, what are you hearing and seeing on Reddit about content getting flagged or removed? And what do you think about it?

• 25:24Ben Brock Johnson?

  And if you want to just send us Luigi memes, like Luigi the Nintendo 64 character, we are also game for that.

• 25:31Amory Sivertson?

  Oh, yeah. Or Yoshi. Yoshi memes.

• 25:34Ben Brock Johnson?

  Or Yoshi, Yoshi memes, really.

• 25:36Amory Sivertson?

  More Yoshi.

• 25:37Ben Brock Johnson?

  Princess Peach memes.

• 25:38Amory Sivertson?

  Sure, bring on Princess Peach.

• 25:39Ben Brock Johnson?

  Whatever you want.

• 25:42Amory Sivertson?

  Endless Thread is a production of WBUR, Boston's NPR.

• 25:46Ben Brock Johnson?

  Today's episode was produced by me and Grace Tatter. It was co-hosted by me, Ben Brock Johnson.

• 25:52Amory Sivertson?

  And me, Anne Marie Sivertson. Mix and sound design by Paul Vikes, our production manager.

• 25:57Ben Brock Johnson?

  Our managing producer is Sumit Joshi.

• 26:00Amory Sivertson?

  The rest of our team is Dean Russell, Franny Monahan, and Meg Cramer.

• 26:03Ben Brock Johnson?

  If you have an untold history, an unsolved mystery, or other wild story from the internet that you want us to tell, you can hit us up at [email protected]. Also, as we mentioned recently, if you want to get in touch via secure channels, you can do that at [email protected]. You can also call or text us via Signal at 646-456-9095. Hope to hear from you. Bye.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Support for WBUR comes from the Quiet Tension Podcast with Dr. Sharon Cherben, psychologist, executive coach, and a close listener to what lives beneath high performance. Here she is with Steve Paliuka, who built Bain Capital and helped bring a championship back to Boston on the thing the best leaders do that most don't.

• 27:09Speaker 07

  The best leaders kind of give credit and take blame. When something goes wrong, they're the first ones to take responsibility for it. And they see the good in the other people on the team. They don't immediately try to deflect whatever problem there was, what went wrong. You miss the sales target on the salesperson, they reflect on themselves and what they could do better. Same thing, you know, what Joe Mazzulla does in basketball. If you see his press conferences and the Celtics don't play well, the first thing he says is, you know, I need to coach better. I made a mistake here. I made a mistake there. Not many coaches do that. But that's why the players love Joe, and that's why, another reason, he's a great coach. So there are things like that that you learn.

• 27:50Speaker 07

  There are many, many more things like that I've learned from people like Red Auerbach and my classmates from business school and sports and all the rest.

• 27:59Speaker 06

  And really, what an array of leaders, because leadership is both the same and different depending on the environment that you're in.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  Listen for more of the quiet tension wherever you get your podcasts.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy, terms, and conditions.

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